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The Scribbler

Robert Jordan's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 418 posts (439 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 1 alias.


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Is there going to be a way to get some of those Stalker talents as Rogue talents? I'm specifically looking at Sniper, the ability the Sniper Rogue archetype always deserved.


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That's kinda sad, I may hold off on using the medium till I get the 54 spirits, so the sooner that happens the better.


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Hmm.. anyone happen to have more info on the Medium spoiler? I was really really really excited about having a spirit for every card of the Harrow Deck, but the statement of "the 6 spirits of the Medium" makes me concerned they cut all of them.


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Ravingdork wrote:


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
It's just like how Weapon Focus gives more than a 5% accuracy increase.
First I've heard that. How do you figure?

I think, and I could be totally off on this one, it deals with Math. I mean prob and stats. We can look and say it provides a 5% increase as it means we increased the numbers that result in a positive result by 1 on a d20. I think the increased or decreased percentage chance is applying more advanced probability/statistics. I took the class I passed the class, I have since had very little real world use for the class in my job so have forgotten most of the class.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Shisumo! Honestly trying to participate in a thread while playing ranked League of Legends is a lot harder than I expected.


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Did you take into account Dragon Style, Shisumo?


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You're missing that the Monk you're looking at doesn't have a Cloak of Resistance. As I'm unsure what game the character is played in it may have an impact on what items they have available to them.


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Rhedyn wrote:
Asha Ghadvhi wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Somehow I doubt that, unless you neglected your Cha. Gimme some numbers on your Monkadin.
Hey.

Well I'll just compare you to my level 12 monk

Hmmmm. All your saves are lower. Your flurry hits less often and deals less damage than my flurry, but you do have smite and divine bond. Your AC is 8 points lower. Your health is lower, but you have means to regain health as a swift action. Your skills are more diverse, but my 4 are higher. Your CMB is lower by 4 points. Your CMD is lower by 1 point. Your speed is 30ft lower.

All in all, your character is probably functional. But it does not seem to be blowing base monk out of the water.

It looks Like Asha is a Core Monk + Paladin. But I would like to point out in the comparison that gear does make a difference. For instance Rhedyn you character has a Cloak of Resistance, Asha does not seem to have one of those. I'd compare the two but the google doc is a bit messy on my screen.

EDIT: Ninja'd by deadmanwalking


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Snowblind wrote:
Also, nitpick:a focused enchanter would be arcane kitsune for +7 to DC over your build when using metamagic'd spells (which an enchanter should be using, because quicken and persistent are amazing, and high level enchantment spells mostly suck).

I didn't use Kitsune as I expect they aren't always allowed at all tables, but it's very rare when I've heard of a group where Humans weren't allowed. I'm curious about the +7 to DC over using a 9th level slot. I found 1 from Kitsune, 5 from Favored Class Bonus, and a +1 if you use a metamagic other than Heighten. If you're using a 9th lvl slot to cast a metamagic enhanced Dominate Person you have 10 + 5 (spell level) + 1 arcane bloodline arcana + 2 Spellfocus/Greaterfocus + 5 Favored Class + 1 Racial + 13 (using my cha mod from earlier) + 2 fey bloodline (let's just be crossblooded while we're at it) = 39. I only got it 3 points higher. If we just heightened it I think it'd come out to 42?

When I was just glancing at level 10 save DCs for some Enchantment effects that may come off monsters the DCs ran the spectrum from 14 to 20. The highest Will dc I saw in my quick glance through was 22 and it was a fear effect not an enchantment effect. I expect the number of times a group of players encounters an optimized opponent isn't that often outside of a homebrew game.


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In regards to the math discussion I made many posts on what I know Monks at my table tend to look like, I also made comparisons between the Unchained Monk, Wizard, Cleric, and Core Monk vs a relatively Enchantment focused Fey Sorcerer. Since most people seem to be primarily concerned with the dreaded Dominate Person.


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Rynjin wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

iron will, let me introduce you to greater iron will...

you don't like her you say? YOU THINK SHE'S... A WASTE?

aw well... i have heard of a certain... 'establishment' that can cater to your need for... 'instant gratification'... the establishment is a purveyor of morally dubious escorts providing PROTECTION FROM EVIL for the mere, low and base price of 50 gp... and they have been known to offer themselves in groups, hanging at a gentleman's belt by the half dozen...

So I can protect myself from a small subset of all Will saves cast by one of 4 alignment types? And I can spend 2 Feats to re-roll a save once per day (that I wouldn't have failed if my Will save weren't bad anyway)? WOW!

I think for the most part you really only need Protection from Evil. Law/Chaos come up too, Chaos more than Law in my experience.


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Tels wrote:

Still Mind does not, in anyway shape or form make up for the loss of the will save the Monk had before.

Base save is representative of the CLASS. That's the bit you can't seem to wrap your head around. It doesn't bloody matter what your wisdom score is, because your wisdom score is not what makes you a Monk.

The UC Monk class (not Wisdom score) has bad saves. The US Monk class (not Wisdom score) fails to be a master of his own mind.

The Monk class fails to adequately represent it's inspiration if it isn't a master of it's own mind.

Again. Class, not ability score. Base save = Monk training. Ability score = person. Ability score does not equal Monk training. Have you understood this yet?

The Unchained Monk is a peasant who can fight better with his fists. That's all.

So Base Saves = Monk Training, Still Mind = nothing? I understand you're very passionate about the Monk, but your tone is coming across borderline rude and very hostile.

I showed you that even with a poor base save the class feature of Still Mind offsets for a good portion of a character's career having them only trail by 1 to 2 points. You stated that thanks to Still Mind a Monk is only "marginally better" than a Commoner at will saves. With that reasoning the Cleric is only "marginally better" than the Monk at will saves for a good portion of their gaming careers.

That's why I asked if a 2 point difference was marginal or catastrophic. It's either a big deal or it's not. If it's a big deal then yes trailing by a point or 2 is a problem. BUT if being ahead by a point or two means nothing then why the problem when the effective base save is only trailing by a point or two.

If that one or two point difference makes or breaks a character class or concept you can always grab Iron Will as it stacks with Still Mind and that closes the gap for even more of the game. At level 20 that means there's only a 2 point difference in effective base save between the Unchained Monk and his poor save and a Cleric with his good save.


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Rynjin wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
...

Fortitude would have made the most sense, had he thought about it.

Purity of Body and Diamond Body should have been left as-is. That makes the Monk have a poor Fort, but outright immune to the majority of non-spell induced Fortitude saves. That leaves thematics the same, and greatly softens the bow mechanically.

Reflex would have worked well too, had Evasion been removed and replaced with something else. I've never seen that as particularly core to the theme. This wold have been downright THE BEST choice for weakened save mechanically, especially if Evasion were replaced with Stalwart (which always seemed like it belonged more on the Monk than Inquisitor and...

In it's role as a melee combatant I disagree. The Monk as it's presented is more of a martial artist with a mystical bent. As combat is it's primary thing having the two saves that I would consider more militant being good makes sense to me.

If the Monk were instead presented as a mystical guru and filled a more support oriented role like the bard then absolutely. Give 'em the good Will save. I'd also probably have hit Reflex at that point and ditched evasion. Sitting still meditating or helping others reach enlightenment you're not so quick on your feet, but sitting out in those terrible freezing temperatures helping others "find" themselves made you pretty tough.

The big thing is this is a book of options, you don't like something don't use it, or change it. You want Unchained Monks with good Will saves go for it, won't affect my table. Even when the good folks at Paizo change things there are times I completely ignore them, folks keep mentioning a Crane Style/Wing/Riposte nerf can't figure out what they're talking about though.


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At level 10 you'll have 4 Ki powers. I think your rate of expenditure will be heavily decided by what powers you select. If you've picked a bunch of niche things and only spend points when you need to then your rate of expenditure will be lower than someone who spends a point every chance they get for that extra attack in a flurry.


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Except that's what Still Mind represents is your training. You keep discounting what equates to a free Iron Will in respect to enchantment effects.

The level you get Still Mind your effective base save vs enchantment effects is only 1 point behind a "good" base save. It stays 1 point behind until level 8 where the gap increases by another point. After that the gap increases sporadically sometimes it's only 2 points others it's 3 until lvl 20 when it's a 4 point difference. As people like to harp when it comes to Flawless Mind, many folks won't see beyond lvl 15ish.

And it's not that I'm misunderstanding the concept, but base save doesn't equal total modifier which is what actually matters when you make a saving throw.

I think it matters to determine though, is a 2 point difference marginal or is it a huge penalty?


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Pandora's wrote:
Robert Jordan wrote:

Right, there are options and class features that help offset weaknesses in certain situations. Bravery helps Fighters resist Fear, Still Mind helps Monks from getting mind controlled. Everyone can take Iron Will for a +2 and show they've really trained hard to master themselves. Comparing a somewhat baseline gives at least a sort of foundation to build out from. Looking at other Martials there are things to consider there as well for our comparisons.

Bravery is always on, Eldritch Guardian Fighters wind up with a +5(?) bonus from their class feature, Barbarians/Bloodragers have to Rage for their bonuses so they'll get those a large percentage of the time, Swashbuckler's Charmed Life has a times/day limit. Some of these features cost a limited resource just like the Monk and his ki.

But all of those, excepting Bravery and maybe Charmed Life, are far more effective than Still Mind. If Still Mind was scaling like the Eldritch Guardian ability, I'd agree with you. The +2 is more than adequate at low levels, but really hurts at high levels, especially when your party members are a Paladins, Barbarians, Inquisitors, and the like who rarely miss a Fort or Will.

Bravery and Steel Will are gained at level 2, increasing every 4 levels. So at lvl 10 it's a +3 bonus, only 1 point higher than Still Mind. Now it increases it's lead as the game continues which is a good thing, but at the same time the class that gets those features is Fighter who probably won't have as high a Wisdom score as the Monk so it may trail them. Charmed Life is pretty spectacular and on a Swashbuckler I mean I know I keep a high Dex and a high Cha, gotta have that witty banter mid combat or it's just not worth it. So Charmed Life can be pretty good, but I think that comes down to what you got for point buy or what you rolled. If all you could get is a +2 Cha bonus then it's on par with Still Mind.


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If you consider the base saves of a class to represent a character's mental fortitude, physical endurance, and agility then what do Ability scores represent to you?

Under Wisdom it states that "Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition." Which is why I focused on Wisdom and overall Will save modifier not the base save.

A Commoner with incredible Will, read Wisdom, could come close or match a weak willed, again read Wisdom, Core Monk.


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A good portion of the Ki powers are pretty niche though, so they have to come up before you're spending that ki point. And that's if you don't have a party member who can handle that issue for you. If you have a cleric who can neutralize poison, unless you want Cobra Breath, you probably won't take Diamond Body.


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Pandora's wrote:
Robert Jordan wrote:
By your argument I can also say that the Monk is marginally better than the Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Cavalier, Gunslinger, Bloodrager, Brawler, Hunter, Slayer and Swashbuckler. Because they all have poor will save progression.

Some of those get class features that significantly mitigate a low Will save, which is essentially what people are asking for the monk.

Swashbuckler as a decent but limited boost in Charmed Life and a stat that makes Steadfast Personality viable. The Eldritch Guardian Fighter, which I suspect will be extremely popular since it does so much and costs so little, gives Fighters a good Will vs. fear and mind-affecting. Bloodrager and especially Barbarian get huge Will boosts. A human barbarian competes for the best saves in the game.

Right, there are options and class features that help offset weaknesses in certain situations. Bravery helps Fighters resist Fear, Still Mind helps Monks from getting mind controlled. Everyone can take Iron Will for a +2 and show they've really trained hard to master themselves. Comparing a somewhat baseline gives at least a sort of foundation to build out from. Looking at other Martials there are things to consider there as well for our comparisons.

Bravery is always on, Eldritch Guardian Fighters wind up with a +5(?) bonus from their class feature, Barbarians/Bloodragers have to Rage for their bonuses so they'll get those a large percentage of the time, Swashbuckler's Charmed Life has a times/day limit. Some of these features cost a limited resource just like the Monk and his ki.


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No what I've shown is that you're attempting to disregard the entirety of a PC class and focus on one facet of it in an attempt to claim it as terrible. There's a slew of other PC classes, which tend to be heroic in nature, that all have Poor Will progressions. You're focusing on the fact that a Commoner, an NPC class that is subpar compared to EVERY PC class, shares one thing with the Monk.

The Monk still gets an innate +2 bonus to saves to the thing everyone seems to be most focused on, namely getting dominated. A single point can separate a success from a failure.

I showed that a Monk with an assumed investment. Namely a reasonable Wisdom score to fuel AC and Ki pool will have a save comparable to a Wizard or other non Wisdom based class that receives a Good Will save progression. As it happens to be your Total Modifier that you add to your die roll when making a Save your Total Modifier is what should reasonably determine whether your character has a strong will. Not just his base save.

Now if you tend to play Monks that dump Wisdom then I can see your problem, but that's a play style I don't personally subscribe too then again I always liked the Rogue even before it was Unchained.

The issues tend to arise when you attempt to compare the Monk, a Martial combatant, to a Wisdom oriented class that ALSO receives a Good Will progression. That combination alone will ensure that they will most likely outstrip the Monk. I would expect a Cleric or Druid to have a higher Will save modifier than a Core Monk simply due to the Cleric being more heavily focused on the stat for casting.

The point wasn't to compare the Unchained Monk to the Core Monk, again this is a book of OPTIONS, it was to show that looking at it objectively an Unchained Monk isn't as destitute and destroyed as people think since it can keep pace with those classes that receive a good Will base save. And will perform better than other beatsticks vs those dreaded dominates.


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Maybe I'm stingier with my per day power points than most players. I tend to only use my arcane pool on my magus, or ki points on my monk when I need them. I don't blow a point every time I flurry for that extra attack or a +4 to ac.


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Tels wrote:
stuff

By your argument I can also say that the Monk is marginally better than the Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Cavalier, Gunslinger, Bloodrager, Brawler, Hunter, Slayer and Swashbuckler. Because they all have poor will save progression.


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One of the higher CR 10 will saves I saw is the Fear aura of a Crystal Dragon. DC 22, not an enchantment effect so no Still Mind. Using our lvl 10 Monks

Core has to roll a 9, modifier of 13 without Still Mind

Unchained has to roll a 13, modifier of 9 without Still Mind

But if the Core monk fails he suffers the penalty, the Unchained if he chose Diamond Mind can spend a Ki point and get rid of the fear effect.


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I'm confused so in the instance where it's about on par with an equal level Wizard before spells come into effect that's unimpressive and meh. But because it's save is 2 points higher vs effects that would seize control of his mind, Still Mind that thing that represents their mental training, it's a huge deal?

I mean I guess we're also ignoring that the Monk while having the poor base save in common with the Commoner gets a d10 not a d6, full bab not 1/2, good fort and ref saves, and is basically an unmitigated badass.


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See I didn't use the core Monk since using a Cleric provides a character that will arguably be expected to have a higher Wisdom than a Monk of similar level. And again at the level we're looking at getting to roll twice on Will saves actually applies. It's why I then dropped the comparison down to level 10 as that's a level a good many more players will actually play at. It's also when Dominate Person is available for spont casters.

But a Core Monk vs Unchained Monk at level 10. They'll both have the same Wisdom we'll put them at a 14 with the +2 headband so a 16 total.

Core 7 + 3 + 3 (resistance) + 2 Still Mind = 15

Unchained 3 + 3 + 3 (resistance) + 2 Still Mind = 11

you're down 4 points from the Core Monk with similar stats. As for getting turned against the party, again when dominated you get another save with a +2 bonus when told to do something you wouldn't, so it goes to a 13 for the Unchained monk only 2 points beneath the Core monk in that instance.

If a Good Will save progression represents mental fortitude and being the master of your own mind, and the Unchained Monk can reasonably keep up with non Wisdom dependent casters such as Wizards and Sorcerers, then the system still represents that idea.


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Yeah see I didn't use spells or feats because I didn't feel like dealing with it, and it's not like the Monk can cast them sans UMD or Multiclassing.

Except the whole point is if he's on par or even near the classes with Good will saves who don't heavily invest in Wisdom then yes he does portray the strong willed master of his mind. Getting that +2 from Still Mind helps a good deal more than people give it credit for. Being able to purge a fear effect is pretty potent stuff when you deal with fear auras from evil outsiders or dragons. Also at that super high level you're always rolling twice and taking the higher before any spells.


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Actually one of the comparisons I should have put in there is one of the non Wisdom based casters with a good will save. For the sake of argument at level 10 a Wizard will have the base of 7, but his Wisdom will probably only be a 10 he may have it at a 12 or 14 but I don't see that too often. So base of 7 + 0 + 3 (resistance) = 10.

If we have a Monk who doesn't invest level points into Wisdom, we'll start him at 14, he'll still get his Headband of Wis + 2. So 16 Wisdom for a mod of 3. 3 + 3 + 3 (resistance) + 2 Still Mind = 11. He's still a point up at level 10.

At 20 assuming the Wizard in his Godlike Power gives himself +5 to all his stats through wishes/whatnot. He'll start at 10 Wisdom + 5 Inherent + 6 Headband of Opness = 21 Wisdom. So his Save modifier is 12 + 5 + 5 (resistance) = 22. The same number as my Monk in our previous high level example. The Monk however gets to roll twice and take the better result every time he rolls a will save.


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Don't forget when Dominated if they command you to do something you wouldn't normally do, IE assault your own team, you get a new save with a +2 bonus on it.


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I'm certain that we could pump the saves higher with the right spells and what have you, I was looking more for a reasonable baseline that didn't take into account having the optimal spells on hand for defense.

I used Only in that starting with a Wisdom that's significantly lower than the Cleric you're not too far behind by comparison to what it could be. If we started at a 10, like a Fighter may very well do, we'd only reach a total Wisdom of 26 if we dropped every point from levels into it. So our numbers would be 6 + 8 + 5 + 2 = 21. That's going hard on upping your Wisdom so it catches up to the "I only put in 2 points" method that started at a 15.

If they started at a 10 and put no points in it which is common amongst my players. We'd start at 10 + 5 inherent + 6 Item for a 21. 6 + 5 + 5 + 2 = 18. You're gonna have to roll an 18 to succeed on that 36.

Now to be fair I also cranked the Save DC really high! I do not believe you will normally encounter that sort of DC vs a Dominate effect outside of a homebrew game. I don't think I've seen numbers like that in the APs I've run, but I could be forgetting something.

More reasonably you'll see casters try to start with a 16 or 18 in their dominant stat, they may take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus based on their characters and obviously what level you may reach varies from group to group. I put things at level 20 just as a way to show what the extreme could possibly be. It gives us the highest DCs and the Highest Saves and the most stat points. It also gives us certain class features many will arguably not see.

I think a more reasonable example would be level 10. Dominate Person is available as a reasonable use of Enchantment shenanigans.

So if we take level 10, assume our Fey Sorc starts with an 18 in Cha, we'll be at 20 from levels, and for argument sake we'll have Eagele's Splendor up for a +4 enhancement bonus. So that takes us a 24 for a modifier of 7. So 10 + 5 + 7 + 2 = 24.

On the Saves side of things. Cleric is gonna have a Wisdom of 22, he'll start at 18 + 2 from lvls and +2 headband. His Save modifier will be 7 + 6 + 3 (resistance) for a total of 16. Needs to roll an 8 to succeed.

The Monk will have a Wisdom of 14 to start, first two points will go to it so 16, + 2 from a headband so a total of 18 modifier of 4. So 3 + 4 + 3 (resistance) + 2 Still Mind = 12. He needs a 12 to succeed. He's only 4 points behind the Cleric even though his Wisdom is 4 points lower and he has a Poor save.

A typical Fighter in my group would have a Wis 10. So 3 + 0 + 3 (resistance) = 6. He has to roll an 18 to make it.


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So one of the higher DCs for a Will save I can think up is a Fey bloodline Sorcerer, starting with 20 cha, lvl 20 all points to Cha, +5 inherent bonus to Cha, and a +6 Cha item. So a total Charisma of 36 for a modifier of 13.

Assume we're casting a lvl 9 spell compulsion, with +2 from Bloodine, +2 from Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, we should have a total DC of 36.

Now we'll compare a Monk and a Cleric saving against the same effect.

Cleric is gonna get the same 36 in Wisdom though, so that's a 13. Base save of 12 + 13 (wis) + 5 Cloak of Resistance = 30. So he's gotta roll a 6 to pass the save, a 25% chance to fail.

Monk is gonna start with a Wisdom of 15. We're gonna say he only puts 2 level ups in Wisdom. It's important but not like a Cleric. Still gets +5 Inherent, and a +6 item. That's a total Wisdom of 28, for a modifier of 9. Base of 6 + 9 Wisdom + 5 Cloak of Resistance + 2 Still Mind = 22. We're only 8 points behind a Cleric who pumped all their points into Wisdom. Sure that means we need to roll a 14 to save, so a 35% success rate.

But we're more liable to have a higher Wisdom than the Fighter or Ranger (who probably went to a 14 and stopped) or a Barbarian. That's not counting that you can take Iron Will for another +2, and at that level we're rolling twice on every Will save and taking the better.

If we were, for argument sake, to do the Monk like we did the Cleric. He'll have a 36 Wisdom, he's wise as hell y'all, so his Will Save comes out to 6 + 13 + 5 + 2 = 26. He has a 50/50 shot to make that save. Not too shabby tbh


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Knockback Kick could be kinda cool. My first thought was to trip someone then hit them with knockback kick as my last attack. If you can swing Knockback kick with your last attack, or on a secondary opponent you can prevent them from full attacking. That can be cool


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You mean DBZ abridged is based off a show? I thought DBZ Abridged and Sailor Moon Abridged were just shows in their own right!

Seriously though I love both of those fan made parodies, Yu Yu Hakusho abridged had some good zingers in it too


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I don't necessarily mean wildly different in regards to Chassis, though it is that. A 3/4 Bab d8 all good saves character plays a bit differently than a Full Bab d10 2 good saves character. The first is more discerning in when it engages due to typically lower hp than other frontliners and wants to flank more in order to facilitate landing blows. The latter is more like a Ranger in that you can just jump in and go to town.

The real differences is honestly to me the icing on the Unchained Monk. Even Rynjin agrees Style Strikes are pretty cool. I think debates will always be waged about the Ki Powers, but each group has it's own playstyle so what is super awesome to one game group may be dead weight to another.

Both Monks represent an unarmed combatant with a mystical lean. I think the Unchained does a great job fixing the most common issues I experienced playing monks since 3rd edition and what players at my table have commented on when they play monks. Most common complaint has been accuracy followed by their powers never really being useful or applicable. Getting a full BaB and no penalty when flurrying and being able to Build-A-Bear your Monk will make my players very happy indeed.


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That's kinda what I was thinking Rynjin, most archetypes should work if you basically say "At X level you gain X no choice" then a good portion should still function. I still think the Unchained Monk is better than the Core option, but I also feel they can function independently of each other and be so wildly different that it's not too big a deal to keep both.


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All things in Pathfinder Unchained are optional rules. As for PFS I have not seen an official statement yet, I think that is still otw.


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One of the options is just Qinggong Power which is just take a power from the Qinggong list


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DR 2/- at level 12 is equal to a Barbarian at the same level, mind it increases at lvl 13 to 3/- for the barb. Anyone wearing Medium Adamantine Armor, or 1 point less than those in Heavy Adamantine Armor. and 2 points off every hit adds up. Take 5 hits and you basically had an extra full Hit Die in health.


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1 minute is 10 rounds, do you often find your combats lasting longer that 3-6 rounds?


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Hmm for AC related ones you have

Style Strike - Defensive Spin gives +4 dodge bonus to AC vs the target you hit

Furious Defense was mentioned earlier 1 point +4 dodge bonus to AC immediate action

Formless Mastery 1 point +4 dodge bonus to AC vs opponents in the stance of a style immediate action

Fun fact you can kick both Furious Defense AND Formless Master on the same immediate action for a combined cost of 3 points. 1 for each ability and I assume the third is the combo cost/tax


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It is a Standard now, and the level you can first select it at is 16. So you start with 10+ 8 (1/2 monk level) + Wis. So base dc of 18 which depending on what you're up against most things will probably make unless you're fighting a bunch of humanoids. Cause that thing will seriously mess up a class with poor fort saves.


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Non AC defensive Abilities:

Evasion + Imp Evasion
Still Mind
Flawless Mind

Ki Powers
Abundant Step
Diamond Body
Diamond Mind
Diamond Resilience
Diamond Soul
Empty Body
Ki Guardian
Qinggong Power
Slow Fall
Wholeness of Body

Returning to offensive options Style Strikes should not be underestimated. Being able to prevent folks from moving away, free trip attempts on a successful attack, knocking folks back/prone, staggering an opponent the sheer tactical glee of these things is amazing. That's on top of any time you swap in a trip or whatnot during a normal flurry.


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In reference to the abilities above I'll give a brief blurb on each to at least give you an idea what they do.

Cobra Breat, Lvl 12 need Diamond Body, instead of neutralizing the poison you redirect it (ranged touch) to a target within 30 feet forcing them to save (poison's dc) or be affected. No additional cost

Elemental Fury, lvl 6, Pick an energy type swift action get 1d6 of that energy for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 monk lvl. Costs Ki

Elemental Burst, lvl 18 need Elemental Fury, 4 points 20d6 30ft cone targeting ref save. Costs Ki

Formless Mastery, lvl 7 but Mark said it should probably have been lvl 6 and was a slip up. Long as you don't have any style feats you can gain a +4 to hit and your monk level in damage vs someone who is using a style. Costs Ki

Ki Blocker, lvl 10, 1 point stop Ki, 2 stop all that other stuff, lasts 1 hour. Costs Ki

Ki Hurricane, lvl 10 need Sudden Speed (which remember lasts for 1 minute now and is 30 feet), Can move up to double speed and spend ki points to make flurry attacks while moving... you know till you're out of movement/attacks/ki whatever comes first. Costs Ki

Ki Volley, lvl 16 need Diamond Soul, they fail to overcome SR you can send the spell back as per Spell Turning. Costs Ki

One Touch, lvl 12, standard action unarmed strike as touch attack get 1/2 monk lvl as bonus damage. IF you spend ki you can double the bonus damage so you'd get full monk lvl

Qinggong Powers, Literally that ginormous list of powers go nuts you know what they are otherwise reference the SRD

Quivering Palm is Quivering Palm.


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If, for argument sake, we granted them the usage of Light Armor. Chain Shirt is arguably our best buy. So +4 armor bonus, max enhancement of +5 to take it to a total of +9, 1 point ahead of Bracers of Armor's cap of 8. Now to be fair the Chain Shirt has the added bonus of being able to get 5 points of special abilities beyond that, and it's cheaper. 25,250 +5 Chain Shirt vs 64,000 +8 Bracers of Armor. The armor has a max dex bonus though so that caps at 4. Now there's only so hard we can really scrutinize things due to table variation, some groups may climb into high levels where Inherent Bonuses from wish/manuals come into play and +6 stat items are common.

But we can look at it and just say if they had, for argument sake, a Dex of 20 that's a +5. Our Chain Shirt will give us 9 + 4 dex for a total of 13, our Bracers of Armor will give us 8 + 5 for a total of 13. Looks even to me. Now I understand the argument about needing to put points in Dex and Wis and that offsets things a bit.

I think a good thing to keep in mind as well is that going to full BaB and no longer having a penalty on Flurry gave you a +2 on all your to hit rolls, that's 4 points of Str.... or Dex if you went with Weapon Finesse I guess. Or Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus, or a +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists or constantly Flanking. You may not hit as hard as a Two Handed Fighter or Barbarian, then again you can two hand a weapon for str and a half in the unchained version, so maybe you will.


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Aside from Stunning Fist there's also Quivering Palm, Punishing Kick, Elemental Burst (which targets reflex).

Things you can do offensively with Ki:
Abundant Step with the Dimensional Dervish feat tree
Cobra Breath
Elemental Fury
Elemental Burst
Formless Mastery
Ki Blocker, which can also block Grit/Panache/Arcane Pool/Arcane Reservoir/Inspiration
Ki Hurricane
Ki Volley
One Touch
Quivering Palm

That's on top of your Style Strikes. Or any feats you take such as Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Imp insert maneuver here and other sundry choices.

Wisdom is a more useful stat for the unchained monk than core. You get the same AC returns point for point that Dex would give you, it gives you more uses of special powers or just an extra attack on flurry, which is another offensive use, and it increases your will save. I noticed a lot of people harp on Save or Destroy your own party spells, but honestly Fear effects come up a ton more often and being able to just shut that down with 1-2 ki points is a helluva lot better than in core happening to fail it and being stuck with it.


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Ahh see I think that's where I'm making the disconnect. I can understand needing a con bonus +1-+2 should suffice since you have a d10 for hp now, and can take Toughness or drop 1 hp every level for favored class on there. A Str bonus is probably more desirable than a Dex bonus as it increases hit chance and damage. Dex obviously helps AC and Ref Saves. But Wisdom is amazing, it ups AC, Will saves, Ki Pool, DC for Stunning fist and other monk abilities. And since those Ki points can be spent to fuel other offensive options I feel that folks are looking at Wisdom like it doesn't contribute to combat stats. When AC, Will saves, and Ki abilities are all combat factors.


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9mm I'm not certain I understand. How do monks have to fundamentally weaken their combat stats to fuel abilities?


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Actually I was looking at In Harm's Way as my immediate action example to block a hit for a person, so I just applied its logic to the Furious Defense so you boost your ac for that extra burst of movement to avoid the hit.


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To my knowledge an immediate action can interrupt another action, so if someone rolls to hit you and they rolled a 16 (for this example we'll say your AC is 14) you know they hit you before it was "announced" so blow a ki point and they miss.


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Actually the only place I remember seeing that kinda limitation is in the wealth by level, right there near making higher level characters. I tend to lean towards the restrictions when folks make higher level characters to prevent someone from having a +5 sword of select dooms and nothing else. If you've been playing from level 1 and sat on your share of the coin/spoils to afford an item that's all you mate you survived without all the consumables/defense items/ponies/what have you, your reward is getting to blow that coin on something awesome.


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Being an Immediate action means you can also kick it after they've rolled and said it hit to force it into a miss.


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Well Sudden Speed the movement boost from ki costs 1 ki point, boosts your speed by 30, and lasts 1 minute. As opposed to 1 ki point for 20 ft for 1 round.... And yes I hear the issues people have about having to choose powers and customize their monks, just toss in Extra Ki Power as a feat. There's Extra Arcana, Extra Rage Power, Extra X. This is a tool kit after all

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