Robert Brambley's page

The Brotherhood is more of an ethnic organization than a religious one. The deities they worship are mainly the Suel pantheon of the time; Wee Jas, for example, was a Suel deity before her assimilation into the larger pantheon. Religion is broken down by profession, with miners and workers worshipping the patron of their profession, wizards and governors worshipping Wee Jas, etc. In other words, you can change their religion while keeping the spirit in tact.

Cool; thanks James.

Considering that that connection was, itself, a 2nd-edition retcon , it is typically dismissed from GH "cannon" by almost all GH players (in fact, it was ignored and dismissed by the later The Scarlet Brotherhood accessory).

What exactly does RETCON mean? This is the second time I've seen this term used this week - having never encountered it before. Both having something to do with modifying something previously written, but not sure if that's the most exact definition.

It should be clarified that the Suel (or Suloise) are one of many human ethnic derivations in the world of Greyhawk. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suloise

And, no, not all Suloise are predisposed towards the SB or their goals. Many, especially good-aligned and mix-blooded Suloise, would be aghast if they knew the true goal of the Brotherhood.

For your setting, your Suloise equivalent doesn't need to be highly magical--any human...

I have just such a group! The "Iron Talons" A hell-bent group of evil knightly order worshipping a Hextor-type god; who believes that might makes right, out for domination of the lands, and whose ideals are that humans are the only pure race and deal in slave trading of the demi-humans. They are led by a high-priest known as the "High-Razor" who rides a great fiendish - black dragon called Ebon-Fang. They have monastic orders called the Order of the Iron Fist, and terrible wizards called Dark Warlocks. The Iron Talons all worship one specific religion.

Thanks for the help.

1 more question: does the SB pay homage to a single universal deity? and if so, is the existance of this particular religion a necessary aspect of the campaign? If so, I may have to change that to the religion that the Iron Talons follow.

Thanks again,
Robert

Robert

Similar organizations in other campaign settings may be: The Zhentarim or Kraken Society in Forgotten Realms and the Order of the Emerald Claw or the Inspired in Eberron. These aren't exactly perfect fits, but the Brotherhood itself is only a minor faction of the Savage Tide unless a PC joins that affiliation.

Thanks guys, I greatly appreciate the input. So I take it that not all members of the Suel race cling to the Scarlet Brotherhood ideals? Just as not all germans would be considered "Nazis." I imagine Suel as a player race and only certain members of this race have these intolerant elitist tendencies?

Hmmmm, I now must figure out how much of the Ideals of The Scarlet Brotherhood are needed in order for the campaign to be successful - well more appropriately the need for them be Suel (or Suel-ish); as I do not have a race of persons who are similar to the Suel in my campaign world - at least none that resemble powerfully innately arcane; the history of my world is that is only recently underwent a major cataclysm that actually thrust the world out of a dark age that saw little magic or no magic. The races are all descendants of primarily warrior nations. Magic has only recently become prevalent and lawful to be used.

How bad would changing the Scarlet Brotherhood to be a group of elitists who were primarily warrior driven as opposed to an inately magical race?

Thanks
Robert

Is the Blood War thing you're talking about called "Hellbound--The Bloodwar?" If so, Paizo has it and Planes of Conflict for pdf download for $4 each, and I can hook it up.

Gee - you just made my very meticulously cared for pristine looking boxed sets that I've treasured for years seem completely insignificant and wasted money! Thanks. :-)

Robert

Sweet. Thanxs, Lord Vile.

Looks like he beat me to the punch. I beleive the boxed set for neutrality is called the Planes of Conflict (?)

Blood Wars indeed has info on those. If you're planning a campaign designed around them, it would be invaluable resource - of course its been out of print for a long time and might prove difficult to find.

...and no I'm not getting rid of any of my old Planescape stuff (which includes I believe every item realized by TSR)

Robert

The SB has been discussed in several threads already:

Scarlet Brotherhood As Pirates
Please Clearify Crimson Fleet Scarlet Brotherhood
Scarlet Whatsits

In that last one, I provided the following:

Thank you very much - I read all of the links and have a much better understanding - though several people have different perceptions of them tells me that there still isnt' a very good universal understanding. They seem to remind me a bit of the Children of the Light in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time?

Two things perplex me then: As I said I know little of Greyhawk, so saying that they are trying to re-establish a Suel Empire means nothing to me. What is Suel? Can you liken them to an historical empire in the world that best defines them....?

Also, if they are knowingly racist and evil, and trying to dominate the world, why then are they tolerated in civilized areas of racially diverse lands such as Sasserine? Or are their members all secretive like the Lords of Waterdeep or the old our historical Illumniati society?

Robert

Try both the 1st Fiendish Codex Volume Hordes of the Abyss and the Book of Vile Darkness for the Epic version of Graz'zt.

No, they haven't done an article on him yet in Dragon. If you can find it they also have info on Graz'zt and his realm in the Planescape box set Planes of Chaos.

Of Course Graz'zt does play a role in the Shackled City Adventure Path (behind the scenes and back story).

Thanks for the responses. As a matter of fact I do still own the Planes of Chaos boxed set - in fact I have all of those PS boxed sets including The Blood Wars. Planescape is one of my all-time favorite settings (along with Ravenloft) and i'll have to dig out that box and peruse it. I'm still miffed that they haven't released Planescape for 3.5 yet!!!

Robert

Is there a sourcebook for 3rd ed that gives info on this demon prince? Such as the Fiendish Codex etc? I would like to get more backstory on this particular fiend - so that I can better tie his existance and his mettling affairs into my campaign world.

Was there an article done on him yet in the Iggwilv's articles in Dragon? I remember one on Zuggtmoy and one on Pazuzu and a couple others, but not sure where I can turn for more info on our infamous six-fingered fiend.

Robert

Just on Celeste, I thought it would be a nice twist to have her mother be the Arch-Angel who sentenced Adimarchus to be banished and who sacrificed herself to tear the battlefield from heaven and cast it into the Abyss – Haloen. What do you think?

I also like your idea of the child guide. Another idea could be to use a ‘memory/vision’ of Haloen – his guide and teacher through his life who wept when she cast him from heaven and died to save heaven. Perhaps her memory embodies everything good, holy and pure to him and therefore is the last piece of fraying thread that holds onto his sanity…

Great idea Robert – I’ll use the guide idea. I may need a little help with each challenge too later if you are willing.

Thanks

Delvesdeep

Thanks for the explanation - I understand it much better now.

As for the mother arch-angel being Haloen; I think its interesting thought - however unless theres some way and reason to make this a point of emphasis to the players, it seems it would merely be unnecessary point. I would think you could lose the the players on this twist making things confusing unless you have good plans and ways to make it important to unveil. Otherwise it's just superfluous and possibly even a red-herring unless it makes a difference to the story one way or the other.

I will definitely be willing to lend my assistance to any such brain-storming.

As for angelic sounding names (for the "galadriel" point you made which i will not use that name for I know it will obviously cause a skoff that will lose its powerful impact to the story): Acacia, Kristalyn, Daemieryn (pronounced Day-mee-air-in), Selyna, Sylveran, Vyrtuous, Andromeda, Aurora, Illumina, Serena, Serenity

Robert

I am reading over the first four installments to this latest AP, and I love it! I think it's the best one so far!

I dont run or know much about the Greyhawk world, and I believe that is where the Scarlet Brotherhood is most pronounced.

Can someone please point me in the direction of a resource book that provides a lot of detailed info about this organization. I would like to get a good grasp of their government and ideals.

The biggest reason for wanting this is that I wish to replace this group with some group that is native to my own campaign world where I typically run most of my games; that way the players that I've had for years will be more apt to be familiar with the flavor and nature of this mover and shaker organization that is focal to the Savage Tide backstory.

Thanks,
Robert

Susequently this dream is also the final dream/nightmare the party will have to move through before they can face Adimarchus' Inner Demon.

Delvesdeep

One more think I thought of, Delvesdeep: when the party is picking their way through the nightmare / dream realm of Adimarchus' mind, perhaps they meet a guide of sorts.

In most cinematic adaptations of this type of event the cliche is that a small child (representing innocence) finds the visitors and guides them / answers questions - from a sweet innocent perspective. Perhaps there is such an entity that the PCs meet that is actually a fragment of Adimarchus' mind that still holds onto his sweet innocence. I'm thinking the eyes are unique to behold, and then upon the climax they see the broken adimarchus' and see the same unique eyes and realize that the child is just a part of him. The child can either fizzle away, merge with Adimarchus, or perhaps the "evil" side of the angel (in whatever physical manifestation occurs) squashes the child.

Just thinking out loud....

Robert

Delvesdeep

Thanks Robert.

The event/dream that reveals to the party what Adimarchus' crime was and the identity of his love is the last dream they recieve and this dream is not 'shared' by Adimarchus but by Nidrama after they rescue her.

I haven't included the final dream above yet either when Adimarchus attempts to rescue Anthux, is ultimately betrayed and finally driven insane from the despair. My version will be very similiar to MrVergee's except for a few name changes etc.

I'll write it up and post it up after New Year but basically it will involve Adimarchus taking Nidrama to a secret cove at the base of the Mounting Heavens on a twinkling night. Here he gives her a small gift - a Elysium Star, a glittering flower rarely found in the fields of Elysium, the place where Adimarchus first saw Nidrama.

Before he can give the gift though a patrol of angelic guards interrupt and charge the couple with Illegial Love (Pairing of angels of different stations is illegial in heaven to not confuse ranks of heavenly ascension or duty).

One of the gaurds is commanded to strike Nidrama during the ensuing struggle and Adimarchus responds with anger killing the angel and sealing his eventual fate...

When the players enter into this dream in the Nightmare Realm the dream will continue beyond this point and show the lead gaurd remain when the other guards take Adimarchus and Nidrama away. The head guard will pick up the flower from the ground before dropping into the ground once more to flatten it...

The picking up the flower with six fingered hand...brilliant!

I'm sorry for jumping the gun, I didn't realize you simply weren't finished writing it all yet. I was similarly perplexed as to why you considered the part of the story that Adimarchus rushes off to save Anthux was not part of the dream story that the characters receive....but now I realize it's merely in the works.

I look forward to reading it. You have done such a masterful job so far.

By the way for purposes of the HC book game, does this nightmare timeline happen as a replacement for the finale' of the adventure - so essentially the nightmare and subsequent redemption of Adimarchus' soul is the end of the campaign arc as far as the module book is concerned??? This is so that I know where/what chapter to place this all in.

Robert

Also, just another quick clarification - the first dream posted above will not be included in the final adventure (Adimarchus' Nightmare Realm). This will be superseded by Adimarchus First and most important/powerful dream - when he was caught with Nidrama, killed an arresting guard and torn away from his love.

Susequently this dream is also the final dream/nightmare the party will have to move through before they can face Adimarchus' Inner Demon.

Delvesdeep

Delvesdeep, first allow me to say that I am awed by your creativity. MrVergee, major props to you as well.

Let me state for the record that I am creating my own versions of these dreams for my campaign using a little cut and paste from each of your dreams.

Delvesdeep, I am confused by one thing: perhaps I have missed something, but your dreams involving Adimarchus begin with Celeste sorrowfully stating that his pride etc has lost him to heaven. But what is it that he did/didn't do that brought him to this point. That part of the puzzle I am still at a loss.

Forgive me if it was stated and I merely failed to see it.

Robert

Have you guys given any thought to how you're actually going to play out the 'Dreamplane' (maybe 'Dreadplane' would be a more appropriate name) episodes?

Though I like the idea of different challenges behind different doors, I wonder how many doors would keep things interesting. I'm afraid nine might be too much. Unless you can come up with nine awesome challenges.

If anyone has any suggestions, please post them. I've been working on my own ideas, but they're not concrete enough yet to post. I'll let you know when I get there ...

I believe your concerns are valid. I posted a while ago the suggestion that we need to brainstorm and share ideas as to actual what actual creatures/monsters the DM could possibly use in these encounters. What makes sense?

Dreamplane or dreadplane both work - but it's in the creature's mind; not an other-worldly enviornement like an outer-plane.

Personally I see it as Id vs Ego. :0)

Robert

Robert

I'd like to give my players some first hand experience with the growing taxation issues that lead to the the tax riots of Demonskar Legacy. Only problem is, I don't have much of a clue about how taxes are managed in a fantasy, medieval city.

I can't imagine there'd be an income tax with no accurate way of tracking someone's income. All I can thinik of is a property tax(if the PCs owned any property) or an arms/armor tax (which would really hit the party square between the eyes come to think of it).

What exactly are all these people getting taxed on that's made them so uppity and how can I include the PCs in that taxing?

Well for starters, depending on the extensive level (or lack thereof) as to the government in your game, perhaps there are "licenses" required for a lot of activity that the PCs engage in.

An adventuring party tax. Taxes for wielding magic. License required if a PC wizard wants to make magic items / brew potions etc; licensce for carrying weapons (especially if they're aren't secured via peacestrings.

All businesses that the PC are patrons of must raise their rates to be able to afford their hellacious new tax increases for their businesses. Taverns, inns, pubs, Skie's Treasury etc.

Visitation taxes if they come and go. Taxes on owning mounts.

All of these are explainable via beauracracy. Think of our real world and see how they apply:

Licence to drive a car, license to own a business, licensce to work as a day car provider, or private security, or a public accountant, or be a public contractor. Fees on registering vehicles; fees to register your pets. etc etc.

The key is to find ways to apply these types of fees/taxes to the PCs and people of Cauldron.

Robert

Thanks! Just uploaded it now to the RPGenius site. I also made an entire events breakdown for the chapter in an identical format as seen here. It also includes a section to keep track of the total Evacuation Points earned in each city section.

Thanks for the help!

Ogre Bane, I just wanted to say that this was a great thread - and your contributions sound great.

I haven't gotten that far in the book yet but I considered a few other options (I know your session is already over - but perhaps other readers can benefit)

PCs see a child/children being trampled by fleeing villagers. Or a woman or elderly or other frail persons.

Also, the Lantern Street Orphanage is great target for collapsing and persons being trapped inside.

An animal stampede from a livery - scared from the explosions - that stamped barreling right towards the PCs and a group of innocent people.

DMFTodd, that idea of rock balancing on the lava flow just sounds so cool - it really conjures vivid images of high-action stunts - right out of an Indiana Jones movie.

Delvesdeep, I similarly like the idea of a demodand swooping in to carry off an NPC - if it's someone the PCs care about that could really create quite a tense moment.

1) demodand swoops in and carries off Rufus just as PCs are returning from church after saving Jenya and Star of Justice. 2) the PCs immediately launch a ranged attack on the demodand.
3) Upon getting wounded, the other cleric slips from its grasp - crashes through a roof of a nearby residence.
4) PC rush into the house to find him - and stumble upon a looting attmept by one of the thief guils - they snuck in, slayed the homeowner, and has their pockets full of loot.

For added tension have that house right next to the blazing potion shop, which could blow at any moment and set this house ablaze, trapping Rufus in there somewhere. While the PCs were rushing towards/in to the house where the cleric crashed into, the potion shop owner is concurrently begging PCs to help put out the fire. Do the PCs seperate and attmept to do both? Do they have time for both?

Heck, I'm building a sweat just thinking about tense moments!!

Robert

When the party place the fragment into the wall, one type of the faces (terror, horror, despair, insanity, anger, horror, fear, agony, power or evil) - Should I change any of these? fade away. When the first eight fragment are found the last door can be opened into the final dream where he committed the crime (and lost his love) that expelled him from heaven

Well, I for one like the second option more. The point is that the PCs "witness" the story to some degree - not necessarily in order. This reminds me a bit of the Light in the Belfry module for Ravenloft. Or better yet - its shaping up a bit like Dante's Inferno.

That being said, I think the "dark emotions" personified would be more apt to be altered based on the DMs campaign and what backstory he's planning to go with for Adimarchus. I for one, am liking the pseudo-christian theme presented the other day.

In so doing, jealousy would be a major emotion to be played upon for the angel's feeling towards humans etc.

Finally, you listed horror twice, and you also listed fear and terror; aren't they all pretty much the same? Enough so to be tough to differentiate I believe.

Robert

Hi everybody. First of all let me say how pleasantly surprised I was to find all these brilliant ideas on the conclusion of the SCAP. I must admit that the original end of the story arc never pleased me, but I put off rectifying it to a later date - which would be right about now.

The suggestions in this thread greatly inspired me to work on my own conclusion of the campaign, and since I found your ideas so helpful, I just had to share my findings with you as well. I have to warn, you, it is a long post, but I hope you'll read it and give me your feedback.

I like a lot of the ideas that were shared here. I especially like the idea that Adimarchus trades his freedom for the freedom of another.

IMC, where Anthux is portraying Nidrama for the purpose of having Addy fall from grace, I think I will use that notion - that he trades his freedom for hers - only to then learn that all along he had been duped.

That being said, for my own purposes, I am strongly hesistant to put all the onus on any one PC. I fear that would give an unbalanced experience for all players upon conclusion, and it may also lead the DM to making special arrangements to spare that character from imminent destruction at some point in the campaign since he knows how intregal that role is to the campaign. So I will not be utilizing that method at any level.

The psuedo-christion mythology that you borrowed for the purposes of Adimarchus is similarly brilliant. I have already begun to find ways to spin that in a story/tale that would be applicable to my campaign world.

Finally, as a group here, I think something we'll need to brainstorm and share are examples of creatures that will be manifestations of Adimarchus' insanity. Thoughts of darkness, jealousy, dread, hate, hoplesness, bretrayal takes physical form and the party must vanquish them to free his mind and spirit little by little - sorta like the PCs are antibiotics fighting off the disease; with each of these dark twisted manifestation, neurons and synapses are being severed from the evil/insanity or his memory of the turmoil is being zapped.

So what physical manifestations could be planned to combat our heroes? blobs that drain wisdom? Any creatures from any of the Monster manuals / fiend folio seem a good fit for some of these?

If we use MrVergee's ideas that the trip through the dream realm is like a storybook chain of events - each encounter providing more clues and and more backstory then each dark emotion that associates with that element of the story could/should manifest into a creature is appropriate for that emotion. One for betrayal, one for his anger/hate, one for despair or apathy etc. Over the course of story of his life that is to be encountered there are a number of these negative emotions that would have dominated his psyche at that time.

Robert

Robert, yes, thats what I meant. Sorry for the confusion delvesdeep, I should have quoted to clarify.

I think the idea of Nidrama loving Adimarchus was generated on this thread - maybe an idea of Ridolfin's? I'm not entirely convinced by it, BUT, with a little tweaking of the background it could explain why Nidrama volountered for a tour of duty on the prime material in the Cauldron region - she knew that some time in the future events in this area would play a pivotal role in restoring Adimarchus. Also explains why she helps them in Demonskar Legacy and eventually "falls" to directly help them in Asylum. Gives her actions a little more motivation.

I like your thoughts and examples on the dream adventure, some good ideas in there.

I'll have to do more research on this issue tonight when I get home - as to who exactly is Nidrama as it is actually written in the story.

That being said, HOW about: (*this considering my understanding that she is/was an angel, correct?) Nidrama was always Adimarchus' lover (eons ago), and Anthux (is Anthux Grazz't or a minion of his?) actually portrays/impersonates Nidrama for a time - during which Adimarchus pligth and fall from grace is done due to his blind love of an imposter unwittingly.

That involves them both.

Question then becomes: why then does Graz'zt care to dupe Adimarchus so, by plotting his demise by disguising himself or his minion as Nidrama?

Robert

Mothman wrote:

Also, while I think all the ideas presented in this thread have a lot of merit, and any path you take could benefit the game, I would take some caution with using Nidrama (or Celeste), Anthux or even Adimarchus too heavy-handedly. You dont want to take the spotlight away from the PCs.

Whatever the final solution for restoring Adimarchus sanity or redeeming him might be, it should be the PCs who act on it. They are the heroes of the story after all!

Good point to make Mothman. My idea about Adimarchus' sacrafice to rejoin Occiptus to the Seven Heavens I foresaw as more of an add on to the story as a whole more than taking the place of Skullrot etc.

Delvesdeep

Delvesdeep - I believe Mothman's point of allowing the PCs to the be heroes was more geared towards your quote of

"I like the idea of Nidrama having to throw herself infront of Adimarchus to save him from Anthux. Perhaps the weakened Anthux attempts to strike the fallen angel down first when he arrives and Nidrama hurls herself infront of the demon prince to protect her love."

With that in mind, I did some brainstorming - this is jumbled list of rambling that came as a result of such daydreaming. Perhpaps any portion of it can springboard further developed ideas.

First, I am confused by the comment of Nidrama saving "her love." I have not yet read through the entire book yet, but I thought that Anthux, not Nidrama was Adimarchus' life-love. And Anthux was really Graz'zt, correct? (or a minion of his?)

IF we go forward on the concept that Nidrama is Adimarchus' love then I think that the final battle can still have Nidrama perform such a self-sacrifice in order to save him and STILL have room for the PCs to be the heroes that Mothman cautioned about and I might add, I fully agree with his notion.

I thought about other areas of literature etc that has "nightmare / dream scenes" akin to what we have been discussing.

Examples of them are: Nightmare on Elm Street series of course. In them, Freddy invades the dreams of poor helpless individuals and he "controls" the enviornment due to his omnipresence in the dreams. In part 3 "Dream Warriors" the protaganists learn how to shape the dreams to their own whims to better combat Freddy.

Also, there was a trilogy of Planescape novels called the Bloodwars trilogy. In one of the books (I think it was the first), their was a crazy bauriar who held some sort of philosophy that he was the center of the universe. Everything that he encountered, he did so because he "imagined" its existance. He was being chased by something monstrous and he blamed its existance on his own dark imagination and fears. The protagonists in the book stumbled on this scene, and he was convinced that they only did so because he was "imagining" someone coming to help him and save him. To him, their sole existance was because he imagined or needed them to exist.

Also, in the Disneyland production of Fantasmic (which is my favorite attraction in the entire park), it explores the power of imagination and explore's Mickey's mind/imagination/dreams. During which the villains interject their own thoughts and somehow invade his dreams and suddenly Mickey is faced with all sorts of nightmares - thus the Demon on the mountain shows up, some of the villains show up to harrass him (Monstro, The Evil Queen, Ursula) and ultimately Malificent transforms herslef in the evil dragon. Finally Mickey realizes it is in fact HIS dream and should therefore have control over it if he can overcome his fears etc, and ultimately conquers the dragon and returns Disney-ish Happiness to the realm of his imaginations!

IF the idea presented in these threads has the idea of Nidrama (or someone else in the role of Addy's love-interest) sacrificing herself and Anthux facing off all is part of the "Final epic battle" then I have used the above brain droppings as puzzle pieces that helped me conceive something along the lines of:

Adimarchus' personality has split much like Smeagol/golum due to the madness that the Cagewrights (Dry'ryd specifically) has caused over the centuries of captivity. In the final confrontation, the PCs enter Adimarchus Id/ego mind and must ultimately confront and kill the "Bad side" of Adimarchus (Golum), which at the time is in command of the mind/imagination/nightmares and can control the environs a la the movie "The Cell" or as I pointed out that Freddy can do in his movies. Think of the things that transpire in the Freddy movies to denote evil and his power....darkness clouds the room suddenly. Fire blazes out of control. Black shutters fall and seal out the light. Doors lock and bar, etc etc, leaving the viewers worried for the heroes. Many of these things are flavor-enhancing effects that the rules for the game don't necessarily make room for them. Once the bad side is defeated, good side is freed of it's evil alter-ego, but he is still caged. Furtherore his Smeagol psyche is shattered; lost, alone, frightened - like many weaker identities in someone with multiple personality disorders. At this point the heroes have saved the day and been in the "heroes." The party can converse with the caged and shattered Adimarchus. But then Anthux enters the nightmare - another figment of his imagination - the real reason for his incarceration, his exile from heaven, and ultimate reason for his insane and destroyed state. Remember the party is IN Adimarchus' mind - and thus in his hidden thoughts and repressed memories, Anthus still exists, and perhaps some part of Adimarchus did know the truth at the time the two were amicable with one another - that truth of course was always ignored as we typically do when we are in love - we live in denial of negativity because love is blind. BUT now Anthux appears; with "Golum" gone, Adimarchus' mind is more clear and his hidden thoughts and fears of Anthux' truth surfaces.

The PCs face off with Anthux - already beleaguered due to the fight with "Golum" and it shouldn't take long for the party to realize they are over-matched. Once Anthux has incapacitated most of the party members in one way or another, he turns to the shattered form of Adimarchus to taunt him as to his true identity and threatens to finally destroy him forever.

Enter Nidrama (though I am still confused as to their love relationship vs Anthux' faux relationship with Adimarchus). After a brief interaction, Anthux informs Nidrama that he intends to destroy her lover and he will then deal with her; perhaps incacerate her in the "cages" to replace Adimarchus. She leaps in and sacrifices herself to save her love. He suddenly awakens, sees the truth of her sacrifice, remembers that he was once a powerful angel, regains his confidence, and has that divine moment of truth and triumph. Remembers as "Mickey Mouse" did that it is in fact HIS mind, and HIS dream and HE should be in control.

Suddenly the chamber changes, darkness replaced by light, holy symbols painful to Anthux appears everywhere. Anthux is terribly weakened. But still from inside his cage he cannot finish off Anthux. He routes the PCs and encourages them to strike the demon while he is weakened.

Thus the PCs again do topple the main bad guy and appear to be the heores in accordance to Mothman's concerns.

Afterwards I really like the ideas Delvesdeep uses for Adimarchus' ultimate sacrifice and redemption. I especially like the gold ball of his reborn soul.

Thoughts anyone?
Robert

I wrote up something like that for my SC game- if you wish I could e-mail it to you.

I'm in the process of doing this myself. Would you mind sharing yours with me, so that I can comapare and borrow ideas not yet considered.

My email is SirKicley at yahoo dot com.

Thanks
Robert

I can also propose you a document I wrote to prepare a special role play event around the Trial of Keygan ghelve. This is a pure role play game aid and it features ten of the personalities of Cauldron (from Valanthru to Lady Knowlern)
If your are interesting in please just tell me and I will forward you the files (0.8 meg total)

Borealis - is this doc in french as well? If not I would very much be interested in that. Reading through my SCAP hardcover - that is one event that I'm looking forward to building upon once I get there. If it's in english feel free to email it to me at SirKicley at yahoo dot com.

Thanks,
Robert

It would be better in the "Campaign Journal" section.

It would not only be a better choice - but rather encouraged! I'll look forward to reading it.

Speaking of which, Todd, have you ever "journalized" your games. I miss being a player in that game of yours and I miss following along to good ol characters like Jander, Elishira, and Nails. I would love to read some of the later adventures they've had since my departure.

Robert

I do like your idea about the Cagewrights being a Cult of Madness, I could work with this...

Perhaps Shebeleth and other Cagewrights could have additional powers of insanity - ie ability to cause confusion, feeblemind, insanity...

Any other ideas from anyone?

Delvesdeep

Take a look into the Return to Temple of Elemental Evil for inspiration on Madness Cults. The clerics in there worship Tharizdun (the ultimate 'mad' god), and there's a Madness Domain and other info in there that can be of interest.

I'm trying to figure out how to connect SCAP to Tharizdun if I go forward with the ideas presented in this thread (which at this point it seems probable - with the nightmare/dreamscape level and all).

This is because the last big module I ran for my players was that module, and they as players alreayd have learned to hate Tharizdun and what he means to civilization.

Robert

Hurmferd wrote:

I've decided to create a short nightmare level for the PC's to adventure through and escape from, prior to their actual trip to Orthrys, on Carceri.

Hurm.

Question - what would/will be the ultimate goal of the adventure?

Delvesdeep

After reading all of the responses on here - I have concocted answers to may of the questions (forgive me if it seems out of sequence - i do not yet know the timeline very well in the campaign arc).

First off the splitting of A's personality into two is a great concept - like Smeogal and Golum. But having two seperate manifestations is an awesome idea.

Instead of the cliche' diary that gives the mad ramblings that you were concerned with, perhaps after that encounter, the PCs learn of a way to enter the thoughts of the "good" half of the A; Todd - you could use one of the Vistani tricks or perhaps one of their natural drugs/herbs to enter into his/her dream world.

Think of the movie "The Cell" to get ideas for this nightmare realm. Also for those of you who have played DDO (dungeons and Dragons Online) and went through the Vault Of Night (VON) series, you may remember the quest that we had to go into the woman's mind to free her of her catatonia. That, too, will prove good fodder for ideas.

To answer the penultimate question of "What would the ultimate goal of the adventure" be in the nightmare realm - to locate the "good" center of mind in the madness and talk with her/him/it directly - and gather the info that was originally planned for the diary - and any other ground laying foreshadowing needed.

This can further move the plotline that there are indeed two "sides" to A, and if the right one can find peace, perhaps that ultimately saves A - once the PCs battle the evil side.

I'm certainly going to pursue these ideas more, once my own campaign is under way.

Robert

Robert Brambley wrote:

The creature can "wrap" itself around a "grappled" foe (Round 2) (If the PC won the opposed grapple in round 1, or the PC successfuly escaped during his own turn before the Raggamoffyn had gone again return to round 1 for options as the creature cannot "wrap" an ungrappled foe.) This is a standard action. It does not require an attack roll or an opposed roll. It is automatic if the PC had already been successfully grappled by the creature.

Actually, according to the raggamoffyn description in MMII, the creature needs to make a successful grapple check to wrap a foe it has previously grappled.

Fair enough - I can accept that - I didnt have a MMII in front of me, I was merely reading the brief description in the SCAP hardcover. OF course any info in MMII would most likely superceed any discrepancies in the SCAP.

Robert

So, I'm DM-ing a game in a play-by-post forum, and the party is in Jzadirune facing off against the pair of ragamoffyns. This a tense battle so far, and it could go either way. I want to make sure I'm handling it right. Thus, I have some questions for the rules gurus.

1. If a Ragamoffyn hits with a slam attack, can it grapple then on the same turn as a free action? Does it have to make a touch attack? Does it have to make an opposed grapple check to hold the opponent? Does it deal any additional damage with a grapple (above and beyond the initial slam damage?

2. Assuming it does grapple successfully, it can then Wrap its victim on the next round right? Is this move automatically successful? Is an opposed grapple check required? Assuming it is successful, can the victim do anything on his turn to escape being wrapped? (with an opposed grapple check or an Escape Artist check for example?)

3. If a victim gets dominated by the ragamoffyn, is there only one will save allowed, or can the character keep trying on successive turns? Can another PC try to pull the victim free from the ragamoffyn?

4. How does the asphyxiation ability fit into all this? When is this damage taken? Is it mandatory for the ragamoffyn to deal this damage (after all, its main goal is to capture a host, right? Not kill its victim...)

I'd appreciate any help and advice, this is all threatening to make my head 'splode. Thanks!

The information you are seeking can be found in the SCAP hardcover on page 350 under the entry "Common Raggamoffyn" (or in the first Dungeon issue containing the SCAP - forgive me I do not know the issue #)

To answer your questions:

To initiate a grapple via "Improved Grap" ability, the creature first hits with its slam attack (Round 1) and then immediately (same round) makes an opposed grapple check. No additional damage is dealt.

The creature can "wrap" itself around a "grappled" foe (Round 2) (If the PC won the opposed grapple in round 1, or the PC successfuly escaped during his own turn before the Raggamoffyn had gone again return to round 1 for options as the creature cannot "wrap" an ungrappled foe.) This is a standard action. It does not require an attack roll or an opposed roll. It is automatic if the PC had already been successfully grappled by the creature. While "wrapping" the Raggamoffyn takes half damage from anyone attacking it but half the damage goes to the grappled PC. It is also considered "grappled" so apply appropriate consequences per the PHB rules on "grappling."

Once "wrapped" the creature can then attempt to wrest control of the grappled target. (Round 3). (IF the PC has escaped on its own turn, then return to Round 1.) Doing so is a Standard action allowing a Will Save of DC14 or the PC is effectively under a Dominate Person Spell.

At any time after this, the creature can let go of the host both mentally and physically as a free action.

The Raggamoffyn can also Suffocate a victim is has successfully "wrapped" dealing 1d4 points of damage. This would be a standard action during its turn in the round starting no earlier than the round following the "Wrap" manuever, unless the creature opts to dominate that next round instead. (it cannot do both dominate and suffocate in the same round). A common tactic may be to Grapple, Wrap, Dominate, and then begin to suffocate while maintaining mental control so that the host doesn't resist the suffocation.

I hope this answers your question.

Robert

My players said something like, "Oh, kool! We own an underground city with a fortified basement!!"

Additionally, depending on what happened to Ghelve in your campaign for his duplicity in the kidnappings, if he is no longer a free citizen (or even alive), perhaps his building has now become property of the town or someone else that Ghelve owed money to for the property, and now it has been foreclosed.

Now another buys that property and expects the PCs who dwell there to pay a passage tax each month to continue to use the basement as an way in and out. (i dont think there is another way at the moment).

It could be a gnome descendant / rightful heir of Jzadirune that buys the building previously Ghelves' Locks, and essentially bars up that entrance/exit and explains to the PCs that he would be willing to let them out if they promise to vacate Jzadirune to allow his people to finally reclaim the halls as their own.

Robert

DMFTodd wrote:

Don't see why you'd need a cleric, you've got two rangers who can keep everyone helped up via wands.

I disagree. I think a proper cleric is essential. SC is hard! The party will be taking bucket loads of damage, and that just isn't going to covered by wands. I've seen single NPC villains deal over 100hp damage per round.

Wow, I guess i'm a real bastard then! I rarely if ever include one of those two NPCs for the party if there are 4 or more players (yours being 5).

The players should know up front that a cleric is necessary. That goes without saying. As a DM, after I read the material or know beforehand what the material will be, I'll inform the players the classes/skills that will be necessary for the the campaign.

For this particular campaing which i'm about to start in the next couple of months, I've let my players know that they will of course need a cleric and a rogue type with good social skills and trap finding abilities, and at least one good weapon-wielder. From there they based their characters.

Personally, if a party doesnt want to include either of those two iconic roles in the party, I say too bad, play it as is, and let them deal with their choices or bad judgement. I'm not advocating making it unnecessarily thougher to punish them, just that it's run as is, and all things being equal, they'll learn fast that it may be necessary to change around the scope of the group for cohesion-sake.

I say if you introduce an NPC to fix this, or allow for such things to be easier to obtain / afford / etc, then you're simply taking away an element of accountability from the players, and giving the impression that you'll always have a "get out of jail free" pass for the players.

Todd's idea is however coniving and great that if they dont have a rogue and hire one, then he becomes a great villain of the PCs when they find out he had stolen valuable goods from them.

I know Todd well, and played in an online version of SCAP he ran, and I know he's just the type to be devious that way. Props again, you're still sinister and devious, Todd.

For the record so far for my campaign, after explaining the kinds of characters that wouldn't be as effective in the campaign (barbarians, druids) and those that will be (clerics, rogues) my party consists of five players with the following tentative character options:

Elven Bard (social and buff specialist)
Elven Cleric (healing / remedy specialist)
Human Fighter/Rogue (trap and weapon disarming specialist)
Human Paladin (Morale, ettiquette specialist, and party shield)
Elven Wizard (sage knowledge and summoner specialist)

Not very diverse in races, true, but they do have the important needs (IMO) for classes.

Robert

Hi delvesdeep,

I am set to run the demonscar ball tomorrow night with my group. But I am wondering how you would solve the following situation:

We got a paladin in our group. How would you handle his Detect Evil ability? There are a lot of evil NPCs there and I do not want to give away too much.

Thx in advance for any input

I could interject my pet peeve I've had with "detect evil" and the sorts but it would be too long of a post and off-topic - but suffice it to say that I do not believe that every philanderer, goblin, thief, and liar who has an 'evil' alignment should detect as such - mainly for it strips away the "power" of the word "evil" (true evil). Evil should represent pure and true utter evil, and not so loosely used to describe someone's demeanor. (alignment debates happend feverishly on ever D&D based messageboard I've ever seen and thus I will end my rant part of the post here...)

In my games, Detect Evil (and similar spells) only detects paragons of that alignment. Planar creatures with evil descriptors, and evil clerics of equal power of the caster detects as "evil" Everything else is benign. (as it relates to the spell's effect) But neither can the bad guys detect good in the same fashion. Paladins, planar creatures with good descriptors and powerful good clerics detect as such; everything else is ambivalent enough not to register. This could mean for the most part only Valahntru would detect as evil - but I'm sure he's got resources enough to have protection from detection abilities/items.

This solution of course only fixes the problem if this was the groundwork of your campaign(s) from the start.

Otherwise, you could have the hall have some sort of powerful protection against divinations on it at all times (known to some of the citizens) for purposes of "protection" Spin that as propoganda any way you'd like; protection vs scrying attempts by would-be enemies if the hall is used as social meetings, and political members frequent it.

Thus within the halls all diviniation magic is thwarted. Perhaps Vahlantru has a "spell-key" that allows him to circumvent this protection giving him a significant social advantage if wanting to divine someone's thoughts etc; but no one would believe someone (specifically him) could thwart the protection thus feeling themselves to be safe from such divinations, as well.

Robert

well at this point, I think this would be a great time to add a new cool NPC "inquisitor" prestige class of the WeeJas church to come to Cauldron and investigate the goings on there in the church; perhaps to bring a modicum of respect and order back to the city's temple and the religion in that region.

Robert

So what I have done is to half the XP gained.

My hope with this is to slow down level advancement so the players had more time playing their characters at each level and so they can make those much needed allies/contacts at lower levels.

This will (fingers crossed) also give me a chance to slot side quests inbetween each offical adventure in the Path. These mini-adventures have been and will be a chance to expand each players background and allow me to provide addition foreshadowing opportunities for the campaign.

Delvesdeep

I intend to run SCAP with the same developed house rules that I run in my existing campaign. A system that I borrowed from the newly enjoyed Dungeons & Dragons Online game.

In short: xp is not derived from monster killing. Thereby it takes the onus away from players who feel they need to kill everything in order to earn xp and advance.

Instead each completion of quest or campaing related goal has a fixed XP assigned to it. As it applies to SCAP is that the DM assigns an XP amount to many variables: such as "impressing persons at the ball" or "befriending a potential specific ally" or "winning over the gnome locksmith to give out info as to who stole the children" etc. (im using vague references as I have yet to read most of the setting so far).

This allows the DM to advance the game as he/she sees fit. This can drastically slow down the advancement of the game and allow for many side plots and quests to branch off of the main: thus allowing for more developed stories and progression of character development.

Conversely, Most players I've been in contact with (and I'm sure many of those out there i haven't, including yours) does like to see some sort of "Numerically" based advancement for their character so that they feel they've accomplished something tangible (instead of something merely aesthetic which we as DMs know is its own reward).

Thus I have borrowed the "rank" system from DDO. Each character level is divided into three parts. In order to advance to level two, the character must earn the needed xp THREE times (as opposed to five in DDO). However, each time that amount of XP is reached they gain a class or race based enhancement/ability.

Most are small numeric bonuses to a skill, or attack or saving throw roll that the player chooses for his character. That way the character does become trivially better at something, but nothing game-balance shattering.

Once he/she gains another 1000, they go to Rank 2 and gains another boost. Then at 1000 more they level to Level 2. Then they need 2000 more xp to get to Rank 1, and so on.

I wrote an extensive list in Excel and categorized by race or class based ability enhancements the required level needed to take it, and Most allow themselves to be taken again (stacking the bonus) with a listed number of levels needed to be gained before being allowed to take it.

For instance: Rogues at 3rd level can choose to take a +1 to damage when dealing sneak attacks. Again not going disrupt balance, but its something tangible that the player looked forward to gaining. Then at 6th level he can take it again, or another enhancement.

This also goes to adding diversity to the characters. No two rogues are going to be the same since they may prefer different enhancements; while one rogue chose the +1 damage when making sneak attacks, the other one chose a +1 bonus to his move silent and Hide checks.

I have already visualized using this system in SCAP which allows for me to play with adding in a bunch of now SCAP material or story/character development based material and not have to worry about the PCs becoming too high of level for each given section of the book.

The way I do it in my existing campaign is Each quest/module the PCs complete, they gain a Rank. This allows also for much more modules and quests, and dungeon magazine adventures to be played. I was always annoyed when the characters would level too high and all these cool Dungeon Mag adventures would be released for 4 levels lower than they were. Now I run three Dungeon quests at each level before the characters advance.

The one thing that you need to look out for, as someone pointed out, is the potential for too much wealth acquired by the PCs (if they're getting the treasure of three modules per level). How I corrected this is two fold: first, magic is so abundant in weapons etc that they can't really be sold. Frankly, who cares the party has 20 +1 LongSwords; they can only use one at a time, and since they're worth very little to sell, it doesn't really gain them alot by selling them. Barter is very popular in my current campaign, so they usually trade them for other reasons, like voyage on a ship, or information, or safe refuge, or having a clerical spell cast on them when it's needed; and two, most of the cool magical items that would be found in a module are instead end quest gifts by the givers of a particular quest; and usually its one item for the group, so I'm not giving out magical items to the whole party - its usually an item that the party can use as a "party". For instance, I ran the Dungeon quest (cant remember the name) where the PCs go out to sea to recover a missing ship that suddenly reappeared on the horizon; the benefactor: Aubreck asked that the PCs recover a chest with his magical trinkets in it (some Figurines of Wondrous Power among other things) that were dear to him. As a reward, Aubreck gave the party a Silver Raven Wondrous Item that they party still uses occasionally to send a message. A very non-balance breaking but cool trinket that aids the whole party.

Sorry for the length of the post, and sorry if it doesnt help you, but I figured I'd share my attempts at a slower progression too. Regardless, i do not intend to stop at 10th level, but I did successfully slow down advancement, but not disgruntle players in doing so. AND as I said, took the onus off of killing things, thus provoking more role-playing encounters. FYI the current campaign they all just made 6th level and they really enjoy the Rank and Enhancement system.

Robert

Sean is correct on all accounts. The connections are far from clear. In fact Adimarchus really plays no obvious role in the plot until the last adventure.

Thank you both Sean and Delvesdeep. Both of your responses have parted the clouds and brought light on the situation.

While reading the adventure, I will keep in mind your suggestions for getting the villain involved earlier and look for way to do so.

Thanks
Robert

My memory of the backstory is that both were male, and their love was of the more platonic Lancelot-Arthur relationship rather than that of Vanyel and his bard in the Magic's Price series.

Also consider that in Life's Bazaar, one of the suggested misinterpretations of Ghelve's actions is that he's inviting one of the PC's into the back room for a little slap and tickle, regardless of age, gender, or race...

The deva is listed as a possible love interest in the story without specifying a male PC...

It would not surprise me much if there were more examples scattered throughout the book.

As far as the linking of the backstories is concerned, you are correct. The spell weavers created the pillars which can be harvested for the magical ability to open a gate to Carceri. Adimarchus was imprisoned and put in a cage on Carceri. These two things are, as I remember, only coincidentally connected via cages & Carceri.

Thank you, Colin, for your response. I thought perhaps I had read too much into the relationship and more arthur/lancelot was more on par, but just wanted further confirmation.

So, for the purpose of this campaign, the story of Adimarchus and Athux has no bearing on the adventure - just that there was some reference as to who was once a prisoner there on carceri?

Thanks
Robert

I posted this earlier - but for some reason it isn't posted - so if it appears twice later, I apologizie.

I'm new to the message board - but not new to either magazine (subscriber for 8 yrs now). I just bought the hardbound adventure and am looking very much forward to running it for my players. I have spent much time already sifting through so many of your wonderful posts.

This issue of the backstory has not been discussed that I could find, so perhaps someone could help explain it.

First it talks about Adimarchus being in love with a paladin Athux - but it seems they're both male which I understand there's nothing inherently wrong with that in today's age, I just wansn't prepared for such a story to be present in a Dungeon Magazine quest. Unless I'm missing something about the relationship in question...

Second, the backstory skips from that to the story of the Cagewrights. Both seem completely unrelated by just reading the backstory. Is it discussed and detailed later in the book as to the relevance behind the former story? I'm trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together in my head to start planning to run it, but I can't seem to find the link yet. If it is detailed later in the book, please tell me where I can read it, so that I can better understand everything. Once I do understand it better, it would run much more smoothly I believe.

Thanks in advance for any help, and I do look forward to sharing and reading future posts about this campaign.

Robert

I haven't actually run SCAP yet; I just bought the hardbound book and began reading it; so my knowledge about who Annah is limited.

That being said - the above situation as described may steer me towards the following scenario:

Annah warms up to the offending PC (a ruse), in order to gain his confidence and trust. She fills his head with all sorts of fashion faux pax ideas that he may be ignorant to, encourage him to take dance lessons that she had previously hired the instructor to teach him wrong. When it's time for the ball, the PC will be the laughing stock of the place, dancing the wrong steps, and wearing the wrong sort of costume for the ball (whatever that may be). Sorta like wearing a swashtika at a Barmitzvah.

Robert