Robert Brambley's page

One thing I'm not entirely sure about (yet).

Is the cost (in BP) for armies (per week) intended to be "only during times of war"?

My campaign is currently in RRR; and we typically prefer a great deal of verisimilitude in the game as opposed to just relying on mechanics to govern everything. The mechanics work well - but we also like to see them translate into believable in game experiences.

They are already wanting to start accumulating an amry; they are a kingdom afterall with foreign and domestic threats, and are worried that if they don't have some form of army they'll be up the creek. Plus forming and having an army to command in their kingdom is something that the players have been looking forward to for a long time - I don't wish to deny them that until we get to chapter 5.

I know in the mechanics of the game, many "events" can just be cured by a "stability" check which is enhanced by the existance of a garrison.

But my concern is that using the "cost" of armies in book 5 seems to be enormous undertaking if they're wanting to build some standing army to be part of the kindom now. Considering the passage of time in my game has already been nearly 2 years since RRR started (and their kingdom started) and they're only a third of the way through that volume. I'm concerned they'll never be able to pay the cost x4 per turn (Considering it's a weekly cost vs the monthly "turn" that the kingdom is developed upon).

My initial thought is that cost "weekly" is for "periods of war" and cost "monthly" is for "periods of peace."

But comments, thoughts and experiences from others is what I need right now.

I too am on RRR, and would love to see other ideas others may have. I have re-examined the rules on mass combat and army maintenance again - so that I have a good fresh understanding and will begin to contemplate how to integrate those mechanics into a "recruitment/training" aspect tied specifically to the barrack and/or garrisons.

It will look something like:

Barracks can sustain 100 troops
Garrison can sustain 500 troops

Each turn a barracks gains x D y troops
Each turn a garrison gains z D y troops

(gains = recruited and been fully trained etc. Each are considered 1st level warriors (CR 1/2 each).

Instead of "gaining" you can "advance" half the above number of dice (for it's respective building). Once entire unit is 'advanced', it is then 1st level fighters. CR1)

These are just the most basic outlines that I have considered and not in any way done with a great deal of mental playtesting. I intend to build and draw from that point and see what I can come up with that makes sense.

@JasonN: Interesting that you metnioned "multisquare building" taking more than one month (turn) as an early consideration; that's actually the way I've been handling it in my campaign I'm running. Verisimilitude is important to me and my players (thus my obsessing over needing some better mechanics for creating armies). My game is being handled to move a bit slower and last a bit longer than what may have been originally intended - don't know - but we all see it as a lengthy character lifetime spanning event.

Robert

The army rules are in War of the River Kings, KM #5.

The rules, as with the kingdom-building rules, are very abstract. Garrisons, Barracks, and other similar buildings do not interface with army creation at all. Castles, City Walls, etc. are relevant to your army's defense value when you have a battle where one side is inside those fortifications.

Maintaining an army IS very expensive, as consumption for an army is paid every WEEK. Everything is handled with BP expenditure as far as creating, maintaining, and supplying the army. There are no rules for supply lines (as there are none for specific trade routes).

Morale, however, is very important, and this is the place where those Loyalty checks finally start coming into play to help your soldiers not lose their fighting effectiveness.

So without abstraction or common sense coming in to play:

A kingdom's player could theoretically build a garrison/barracks (or not) and just spend BP for an army and viola they have an instant army?

I understand the combat rules - and I have examined them in book 5; I was just wondering about the time and energy it requires to create an army or upgrade them etc.

And you're saying that garrisons or barracks have no interface with the army creation/maintenance - thus there's no guidelines/info on how many warriors one would maintain - so they're built (mechanically) for the bonuses to stability etc only....?

So if there are no such mechanics in the books - I'm wondering if anyone else feels like I do and they could be good thing - and if anyone has determined some outlines on such a mechanic???

Thanks
Robert

Thank you for the response. It was quite insightful.

However I think it may just be a bit more complicated to consider than what I was looking for at least initially.

What I'm looking for is something like:

"A barracks can have X trained men at any given time. Trained soldiers are replenished at the rate of Y per turn per barracks up to X per barracks."

"Garrisons can....etc etc."

I wonder if anyone has really considered making guidelines and mechanics for this - or if it's even necessary.

The mass combat rules are good and easy to follow - but one can't engage if they don't have the mass armies to do mass combat with.

Robert

I know of the rules for mass combat - but does one of the books have a section on building one's army for their kingdom?

If not - is there a discussion on this subject in this forum somewhere?

Essentially what I'm looking for is some ideas/guidelines for how long and how frequent a Garrison or Barracks can supply trained soldiers/troops etc for the kingdom.

I'll admit I haven't read past book 2, so any direction as to where to look would significantly help me get started.

Thanks,
Robert

I've found other ways to use Loyalty as well.

With the first planned encounter - the werewolf - the PCs did some digging around to find out some info on the two victims etc. Why were they out so late? Were the two an item? etc.

Do the people wish to trust their government? Are they willing to give info about their friends to rulers asking a bunch of questions. Perhaps they're superstitious or afraid that the beast may come after them if they speak.

Make a loyalty check.

Disaster Struck their kingdom too (random event).

Do the people loot? Do the people pray on the disadvantaged a la stories we've heard post-Katrina? OR do they step up and work shoulder to shoulder to dig out the rubble, and fix the demolished buildings - a al the stories we heard of post-9/11.

Make a loyalty check.

An assassination attempt happened (on the ruler). The "spy" got away. The PCs went to track him down. People were questions, information gathered, detective work being done to find the culprit and an employer. Do the people protect the would-be assassin? Do the people give false leads? Do the people harbor the fugitive OR do the people help the PCs, and want justice served - are they angry about the attempt and unite because of it?

Make a loyalty check.

These use of these has made the players think long and hard about how much taxation they want enforce.......

With a little forethought and creativity - many of the events can find a way to incorporate people's loyalty being questioned.

Robert

Yes, if you make a successful normal attack roll you can do normal claw damage plus discharge shocking grasp.

It takes a standard action to cast shocking grasp. You can cast the spell and then make one free touch attack with it that round as part of the act of casting the spell. But you've still used your standard action for the round. You would have to hold the charge to make a melee attack with your claws (which requires a standard action) after casting the spell to do the combo. Unless your opponent provokes an AoO, in which case if your claws and spell are ready that works too.

That is exactly how I thought it worked. Thank you very much for confirming that for me.

Robert

A sorcerer (Draconic) extends his claws (free action) and wants to make a claw attack along with make his shocking grasp touch attack.

Can this be done via a normal attack roll and apply both damages?

If so - can he make a normal claw attack (non touch attack) in the same round he casts the spell? (Normally, casting a spell that requires a touch attack allows the touch attack to be done in the round the spell was cast; so does switching the attack to a standard attack mean that the spell must be cast and "held" until the following round?)

Robert

We get a pic of Loy Rezbin in the top right corner of the back page of KM4, next to the "Road to..." quest. I'm unsure which other npc you're asking about. If your looking for his wife or the High Priestess, I don't think either are ever depicted.

The other NPC I spoke of was Latricia - Loy's wife - whom I believe someone mentioned her as being a cleric of Erastil.

Thank you for your input.

Robert

So can I find more info on these two NPCs in book 4? Pictures of them etc?

I will want to fish this info out so as to not need a retcon when I get to that part.....

Robert

Hope this answers your questions. Alex

It does indeed and now the lights are on and this makes a heckuva lot more sense.

Thanks to the two of you for your help.

Robert

On a meta-game level, it is intended to be the furthest west city in the kingdom. At the beginning of book 4, your kingdom gets attacked by an army from the west. They include a map of Tatlzford to run this fight on. It makes it so that the map and everything works together easily.

Thank you for all the info - this is quite helpful.

One thing I don't understand (still), is if it's meant to be an independant city and not part of the kingdom, why does it provide a benefit to the kingdom that the first building that is built there costs the PC's kingdom "half as much"?

Thanks again
Robert

I have a two-part question about this proposed event in Kingmaker vol_2
1_)

2_)

Thanks,

Robert

That's why Kingmaker is my favorite AP. It has changed my concept of dungeon mastering and roleplaying. I was bored knowing always which was the 'next step in the road' with conventional adventures. Now, i enjoy every game sesion, never knowing what's going to happen. You only have to design a lot of NPCs and a few events. The rest is pure roleplaying. Wonderful !!!

First I will second this notion.

Second, to the OPs original concerns and questions: I would say that in order to represent the cost of the spies etc, that the "Spymaster" role informs the ruler that a "Thieves Guild" must be built first - in order to have a network to draw upon.

Once this is done, if the requested notions by the PCs are things to be done "off stage" by NPC spies, then come up with a viable arbitrary roll that the Spymaster PC uses his/her stats/skills/abilities to influence.

Alternatively, you can roll a Loyalty Check for the kingdom - and adjust the DC of the check based on the difficulty of the task being requested.

Also one thing I've learned from playing the game Paranoia, is have an idea as to provide the players based on the "level of success" or failure. In other words - if he barely passes, then he gets the most basic info or desired results. Beating DC by 5 creates even better results and by 10 significant fantastic results. Contrastly failure indicates another turn must pass before you can try again, Failure by 5 or more means the spy was captured and you'll have to spend next turn looking for replacements, and failure by 10 means not only did spy fail - but his cover was blown and his allegience to the PCs kingdom was discovered.

We have not yet gotten to this stage in the campaign yet that I'm running - but I have quite the clever group of players who are undoubtedly going to come up with trying out cool shennanigans such as this; so I'm getting myself ready.

Anyone who read about my players dealings with the kobolds and how they used that relationship in another thread no of what I'm talking about. I don't put anything past them, I'm sure that I'll be dealing with all sorts of ingenuity as the campaign progresses (we just now started book 2 - PC's kingdom of Pendraig has just completed it's first year.)

There are definitely some good ideas in this thread and on this board; I am thankful to have this resource for when I need similar advice. It sounds like many of us have a good campaign going with some good creative players.

Robert

You've got some gold here Robert. Thank you.

I can see the kobolds working in some deal where they get a certain amount of moon radishes per month, as they use them as a narcotic (or something else important to their tribal needs.

Thank you.

Now you're thinking! Good idea. Have them demand an herbalist shop be made in the kingdom; once done, they can exchange silver for properly stored moon radishes.

By the way, I had Bokken's fangberries actually be a plant monster that has thorns that leeches hosts blood (hence FANG-berries) and the berries are the result of that blood being drained. Bokken uses them to create an "absinthe" concoction. The result of the concoction when imbibed, lowers one's wisdom, but makes the person immune to all charm/compulsion effects since their mind is not capable of rational thought to be commanded.

Using that type of thought-process - perhaps the moon-radishes do something similar for the kobolds. Or maybe it only has such a physiologocial effect on dragon types - much like catnip seems to only effect cats.

Robert

I have played in campaigns where 3/4 of the time the GM spent out of the room with 1-2 players, and it was glorious. The problem here is not the play style. The problem here is that not all the players are looking for the same type of play. I for one love to be in a campaign where everyone is keeping secrets from eachother waiting to stab others in the back, and nothing prevents you from doing that in Kingmaker and succeeding.

Sounds like you would enjoy the game Paranoia as much if not more than your Pathfinder games.

Personally I like both games - so I generally keep them seperate - if we're wanting a stab you in the back conspiracy game, we'll play Paranoia.

D&D (or Pathfinder) is for hero groups working together. At least that my (and my players) preference.

But you're right - there's no wrong way to play the game; so long as everyone agrees on the style and having fun while doing it.

Robert

I've bee DMing a kingmaker campaign in which I did not give specifics to the players on how the rules work.

I provided them with phases and what is done in each of them and explained the various "saving throw checks" for the kingdom, and explained that the buildings will typically assist one of those three.

Then I basically threw all the buildings into one of three tiers.

Tier one: 1 city square bldg - Minor and provided a range for BP costs of those bldgs.

Tier two: 2 city square bldg - Moderate and provided a range of BP costs for those

Tier three: 4 city square bldg - Major and provided a range of BP costs for those.

Then with using real world common sense explained that for the most part: bldgs that specifically sell things - increase loyalty. bldgs that specifically manufacture goods (brewery) or ensure security/safety - increases the stability, and bldgs that provide leisure activities will provide loyalty bonuses - with some overlap.

Finally - with the rule of thumb that "the more it costs, the bigger the bonus", it gave them a lot to go on.

By not providing all details, it adds a little to the believability that no such novices could create a kingdom flawlessly without some concern or possible trial and error. And it also provided more mystery, surprise and good feelings of success by not gift-wrapping everything. But provided enough that they could extrapolate a well thought out plan and not set them up for failure.

With that in mind - my players are pretty crafty and smart and they were able to determine for the most part which bldgs they needed for what and what they could afford. The wizard has made a couple of Know-engineering to figure out how much materials one bldg that they're considering to build costs in comparison to one they already built. By using deductive reasoning and common sense wisdom, they have been quite clever at figuring things out. I feel it has added more dialogue and strategic planning as a group because it wasn't all spelled out for them, and has removed alot of the easy to abuse min/max tendencies some groups may suffer from if/when the player have access to all rules.

So I disagree that the rules are without a doubt all meant to be disclosed in entirety. I think that DMs can use some personal judgement and discretion especially if he feels comfortable that the group won't hang themselves.

That all being said - the dischord in the OPs group is running rampant at this point from what it sounds, and I believe the OP is doing nothing to help - in fact hurt it even more, and by all reckoning the kingdom and the campaign will fail if there isn't some pulling in on the reins done and some discussions and compromises between players and DM quickly!

Robert

Your players have befriended the Sootscale kobolds. Now what? How exactly did they handle extracting the silver from the mine without killing or displacing the kobold tribe?

This I would love to know. :)

First they traded all the small size gear they liberated from the (now dead) mites, earning their friendship. In exchange they offered their warriors as help against the Stagg Lord's fort.

Then they offered a peace negotiation with them for trade.

I decided to play the kobolds like the old school spaghetti westerns did for "indians". The kobolds wanted "fire water" in exchange.

The PC had to make a brewery - once this was done they had to spend 2 BP to add the infrastructure to the mine to make it profitable.

Once both of these were completed, the players' kingdom profits from the brewery bonus to Econ, and the mine bonus to economy +1; however at the current time, the citizens of the kingdom are a little worried about having kobold neighbors in the next hex that are trading and thus the kingdom suffers a -1 to loyalty. Once again - this plays on those old movies where the local never took well to the idea of "Engines living too close to home."

The PCs have made Mikimek kobold as the official liaison between the tribe and the kingdom to help in beginning to smooth things over with the local citizen.

In exchange for the kobolds working the mine for the kingdom, their demands were only that they not annex that hex into the kingdom so that they can live independant of foreign rule - only the Chief Sootscale to command them.

One side-quest I have concocted is for the kobolds to be threatened by goblins and/or another kobold clan that is bullying them because they opt to trade and be peaceful with the "soft-skins". The PCs will have to quell the feud in order to get the mine functioning again.

I can also have the kobolds stumble upon some subterranean ancient dungeon or crypt or something and use an old Dungeon Mag or Dungeon Crawl Classic or Pathfinder module adventure for filler.

Eventually - I don't know when yet - the kobolds will come to the kindom's aid and will negate the loyalty penalty as the citizens will finally come to see and accept them as helpful.

I you don't go the way of the brewery - find another building that makes something they want and make it a prereq for the kingdom to build in a nearby hex to offer trade. In fact this is how I got them to use the NPCs as the leaders. Each one they asked to fill a role required them to build a building for them to use in their role.

Robert

Hey congrats Yoda/Mark.

From what I've read of your posts, you deserve the chance.

See ya at PaizoCon I guess.

Robert

Robert Brambley wrote:

What did I do wrong? and am I going to be losing out on any type of credit towards me as a GM as a result of this "cannot find" error?

For the GM line make sure you put in you number XXXXX, not XXXXX-X for any character you may have.

When claiming GM credit for your character you use the XXXXX-X number.

I used the XXXXX for the GM line.

To gain credit for my PC, I added him in as one of the characters at the session.

I think I remember that being the instructions in the HOW TO by J.Frost.

And yes, in that field, I used the XXXXX-X.

Thanks.

Often times when you enter your PFS number into the blank when using Internet Explorer you will get that error. Just enter you name and save the information. This is a known issue.

Thank you - that makes me feel a little better. I did enter the name; so all should be well.

Robert

I ran two quests last Saturday and yesterday I attempted to report it all on Paizo's database.

As I keyed in the GM#, it told me that it didn't recognize the number.

I had the understanding that I was to simply use my Pathfinder ID# that was assigned to me last year when I made my first PFS Character; which I know does exist in the database because I have had sessions successfully reported for my character(s).

What did I do wrong? and am I going to be losing out on any type of credit towards me as a GM as a result of this "cannot find" error?

Thanks
Robert

If you continuously have issues with USPS, you might want to consider a change to a different shipping method such as UPS ground which offers package tracking.

thanks
sara marie

Thank you Sara. That's a good idea. of course the cost is significantly more and that's precisely what I have issues with - you have to pay more to ensure what youre paying for isn't damaged by someone else. Unlike most every other organization - liabilty applies. Doesn't seem to with the USPS. But I've learned you can't rage against the machine. So we just take it on the chin and deal with it.

I appreciate your ideas and prompt response. I look forward to finally getting all that I paid for.

Thanks
Robert

EDIT: Am I being charged for the shipping on all those books again then? Or if they come together in Sept am I only paying for the two new items?

Robert

I'm just reposting my EDIT aspect of this post - in case my post was viewed sans the edit originally and never relooked at.

I am still wondering about the answer to this question.

Thanks (still bitter and disappointed about not having my Kingmaker maps for the campaign I'm trying to run....)

Robert

I have already mused adding in Fellnight into the mix. But I stil intend to run the game to it's completion at 16+ level.

I have already laid some ground work as it pertains to Rhoswyn

Ground work foreshadowing:

#1

#2

#3

Though I'll admit the last one is a bit twisted and sick.....I'm okay with that.

Robert

Jason is correct. Is it cumulative or not?

Also, does it work in reverse. If it is example #1, then what happens when they set taxation to zero (as of course they would, why would you take a constant drain on loyalty for a one time 1 point boost to econ), does that mean that loyalty then increases by 1 every month (cumulatively).

I can see setting festivals, since you could pay for them by setting aside a farmland, and that kind of fits the roleplaying aspect of the kingdom, but not the constant drain on loyalty for no return.

Frankly, we thought that it was set up so that you could offset costs. I.E. taxation costs you one loyalty, festival adds one loyalty and costs 1 BP, so you were even on loyalty, with +1 econ and a cost of 1 BP. This way, you'd be draining loyalty continuosly, and getting nothing for it after the first turn. Just seems really ...odd.

Think of them like "aid other" maneuver. You don't get to keep the bonuses in the next round unless the person continues to spend his action to aid you.

You dont' get the bonus to your loy/econ/stab if you're not spending the BP etc to have it that turn.

Robert

FWIW, #1 is how I have always interpreted it, and it seems that is also how James is describing it.

The OP is correct that building a building that has one initial cost in BP but perpetually providing it's bonus to the kingdom's stats has more of a pramatic mathematical sense; but again as someone pointed out - the Edicts are good for roleplaying measures. Also that Edict bonus could wind up helping go above and beyond the stagnant bonus the kingdom is getting from it's construction; perhaps they can only build so many items that turn, and need a little boost for assurance. It's a good way to use the excess BP to bump when you can't bump via construction of a building.

AND it's good flavorful roleplaying to add color to the game.

Robert

Are you serious? I wont get the items that I already paid for that I should have gotten in mid July until sometime in late September???

Forgive me if I seem a bit indignant or bitter about it, but that just seems a bit shall we say "short end of the stick." -ish.

Sadly it's not your fault nor mine; it's the US Postal Service. But you're eating the cost, and I (the customer) am eating the shaft! I'm really starting to get burnt out on the lack of professionalist with the USPS.

Anecdotally, several packages (from you) have come damaged and when I complained to them, all they said is "did you pay for insurance." Why should I have to pay more to ensure that the service I'm already paying you for is done carefully? How would it be if a taxi driver told you "It'll cost you an extra $20.00 if you want to get the airport sans a broken arm." I did purchase insurance on a Playstation I had shipped to me - and when I got it, the blue ray laser had broken loose inside - I had to pay shipping again to send it back, and the USPS told me when I asked about the insurance "the insurance doesn't cover that since the damage isn't external." I kid you not - I can't make this stuff up! Combine that with the fact that the USPS is simply leaving the boxes of books you send me on my porch - no signature, no security at all, and not delivering to anyone. So anyone could have come by and taken July's order off my steps. I dont' live in the Ghetto, but it's not an upscale gated community either. Like I said - I'm growing really frustrating and tired with the whole thing. If this kind of frustrating and unsatisfying experiences continue to happen, I'll have to reconsider other options of my purchases; such as switching to PDF purchases only. It's no wonder the USPS is claiming they're going broke.

EDIT: Am I being charged for the shipping on all those books again then? Or if they come together in Sept am I only paying for the two new items?

Robert

Hi Sara, when did you actually send out the replacements?

I still haven't received the original shipment, and I have not recd the replacements and it's been 2 weeks since I last posted.

In the meantime, I DID receive August's order - so I do know that the post office remembers where I live, however. So at least that is some good news.

Robert

I used the painted plastic mini of Warduke.

It went over pretty well.

Robert

Hey DD - if you can find the old (probably in Archives now) thread that I posted in regards to me finally finishing SCAP - I posted a lot of detail of how my climatic session went, including a lot of info as to how I ran the "entering Addy's mind/madness theme" via his dreams.

Essentially he was locked in his own dreams/madness and the PCs had to convince him that it was all in his head.

Meanwhile they had to fight Dark Myrakul etc while Addy was chained and in depressed repressed denial.

When Graz'zt appeared w/ Balors and his succubus daughter, thats when Addy started to learn the truth and actually was able to make a difference by controlling his own subconscious. A lot like being in a Freddy Nightmare movie.

Seeing the recent movie of Inception may help formulate ideas for the dream sequences.

Robert

I just found this thread. Wow, great stuff indeed.

I will definitely find a way to utilize this. Thanks to all Lf for sparking this idea and all others who contributed to it.

I have a question though and perhaps I'm just being a bit dense in not noticing the obvious, but an explanation would help me get that "a-ha!" moment.

A party of 6 PCs containing a healthy mix of classes/races are travelling together.

One wants to spend his hour or so doing the swift activity: Find protective shelter. Another wants to spend his: Looking for firewood, and a third some other 1-2 hour activity......

So what I can't fathom is how does the person who out looking for shelter not leave behind the person(s) who are doing other things. It seems to me that sure they can stick together, but it would still use up the swift action for all those not wanting to seperate from the group, since the amount of time in that day is still elapsing for them even though they aren't actively doing something.....

Or am I just reading too much into it and being too nit-picky?

Thanks
Robert

The tenuous connection between Adimarchis and the Cagewrights was a pet peeve of mine for years as well. The reason for this was simple – there was planning to the campaign and no threads and links throughout. This is a huge flaw in what is otherwise a wonderful series of adventures.

Hey gang - just popping back in this category of threads for a moment - havent looked at this section in over a year....

Having completed SCAP a year and a half ago, I can attest that DD's concerns were valid - and of which I shared in.

I will also give a standing credit to DD for his work that he did - and posted, of which I borrowed, edited etc and used in my own games which completely helped flesh out the Cagewrights and Adimarchus. Many of us on here brainstormed ideas on how to do it all better, myself included, but the Lion's Share was indeed done by him.

Robert

Baratuk wrote:

I have one question. WIth the swordlords sending adventureres into the wild for exploration is it safe to assume that perhaps Pitax may be doing the same?

Nope. Pitax has different plans and plots than Brevoy. Once they do realize what Brevoy is up to, their reaction is to send armies and assassins and the like up to kill the "intruders," but they really don't have much interest in things to the east of the Slough until, arguably, it's too late and the PCs are already pretty powerful.

Wow, that sounds just deciciously devious!

Love it!

Robert

Robert Brambley wrote:

Hey Cos,

It's now 8/3 and as of today, there is still no package from the shipment you sent on 7/9.

It's very frustrating. I know it's not Paizo's fault and I appreciate your efforts to fix the problem.

Robert

I've set up replacements to go out with the next subscription. If the original shows up in the meantime, please let us know so we can cancel the replacement.

thanks
sara marie

Thank you so very much Sara.

BTW, you look significantly better than your coworker there. :-)

Robert

Hey Cos,

It's now 8/3 and as of today, there is still no package from the shipment you sent on 7/9.

It's very frustrating. I know it's not Paizo's fault and I appreciate your efforts to fix the problem.

Robert

I agree in general, but I don't agree in specific. While I'd love to see a lot more guns or butter in a dominion simulator than is in the current KM set up, using culture doesn't fit with the genre terribly well.

Interesting. I don't necessarily disagree. However just because Brevoy and KM seem to be more of a dark ages setting, doesn't exclude it from haing the concept of culture. Religion and festivals, along with events such as celebrity visitng, even some arena events (should the arena be built) all of which are part of the kingdom building, can create a modicum of culture among the people.

Robert

Spending on health care does not hamper spending on defence other than the fact that the state has a limited amount of resources to divide between the two.

Thank you for the input - and that is precisely the "balance" act that I'm trying to illustrate.

Another example that came to me - "Mordor" Talk about an anti-cultural society that is about nothing except some war-technology despot.

Of course my limited knowledge of star trek makes me think of the Klingons, too. But you could barely fill a thimble with my knowledge of Star Trek.

Robert

EDIT: If you want feedback, don't couple the systems. Let each be a separate total, and don't reduce one when the other increases.

Fine. That's good advice. Thank you for the afterthought.

Now if that's the only area that could be improved then it appears I'm a better rules and mechanics writer than I gave myself credit for.

I'll give you an example of what I speak: Think of the debates in Alaska for oil drilling. Do we "waste the providable resources in order to preserve the natural culture" losing out on valuable resources? OR do we ignore natural culture for the sake of technology?

The more you swing the pendulum in one direction or the other, the other loses out on more.

Robert

The example with Sweden doesn't work, as Sweden was (and to some extent still is) an industrial powerhouse by regional standards. For example, the Swedish defense industry still produces large amounts of the Swedish military's hardware, whereas Norway and Denmark buy from larger countries (and I thinke the Germans would be miffed if you tell them they have no culture since they have lots of industry).

Also, the Renaissance saw the introduction of all that fancy armor we take for granted in fantasy settings (full plate is Renaissance tech), which is most certainly "technology". It also saw the introduction of functional gunpowder weapons. (Defining the Renaissance as roughly 1400-1550).

Really guys? Really??? This is the help the board can offer??? Me thinks thou art focusing too much on the fluff details and nitpicking.

What I was hoping to procure from everyone was some ideas to make the "RULES" and mechanics work. Not debate esoteric military facts about Sweden.

Culture vs Technology; Art vs Science; fluff vs mechanics, democrats vs republicans, left side vs right side of the brain - however you wish to categorize them. They are two different approaches. While they may sometimes compliment each other in some ways, too much of one will inevitably begin to diminish the other. As I said, this is a gamist concept - concepts that were inspired by the Civilization computer/console game; in that game you can win via a cultural victory, or a technology victory (among others). If you pursue both equally youre bound to lose.

That's all I was trying to emulate; and simulating for gamists perspective. What I would appreciate is feedback on how the mechanics are designed and how to make them work better or more robust. The idea was to add more fun to the kingdom creation process.

Robert Brambley wrote:

In most cases, these two elements of a society are typically counter-productive of each other. Civilizations that are rife with culture are often behind in technology that could make them a global powerhouse. On the other hand, civilizations that focus only on technology and advances fail to sprinkle a modicum of culture upon it's people. While not the antithesis of each other, the two concepts do typically act to hinder each other.

No. Just, no.

I'm sorry, I don't really have time to give all the reasons that this doesn't work, so let me just say two things...Hollywood, and the Internet.

Really??? The internet and Hollywood are best friends...? In case you haven't seen the news lately, the internet has been the bane for movie and music industry thanks for a new and easier means of theft.

Sure the internet has produced a new type of culture - but it's still typically media and entertainment which is a form of culture; there is a lot of technology that is not entertainment based.

Robert

Robert Brambley wrote:

According to my Subscriptions page, it shows my last order containing several books including Kingmaker 5 was shipped out on 7/9; however as of today's mail delivery it is still not here. That is over two weeks and I'm in Northern California - not far from Washington.

I already have an email confirming my next shipment will be shipped out by end of this week and unfortunately I'm still jonsing for the last one.

Please help - are you able to track this shipment at all?

Robert

Your order is definitely running late at this point, but it is not yet so late that we should give up on it. Please give your order another week to arrive. If you still haven't seen it by the end of next week, let me know and I will set you up with replacements at that time. In the meantime, since we did ship the subscription stuff to you, the PDFs are available for download on your My Downloads page.

Thanks,
cos

Thanks Cos. I hate waiting.

PDFs true....but I can't enjoy that new book smell on a PDF! :-)

So there's no way to track it eh? What's wrong with the US Mail service??? Three of my orders in the past year have come damaged, and now this! Over two weeks to go 700 miles. And they're increasing postage cost too! I know it's not your fault; but you're customer service so it's in your job description to have to put up with ceaseless bemoaning, b@~&+ing, griping, and lamenting along with a plethora of stupid questions and asinine requests.

:-)

Robert

More behind the scene thoughts. These are points not specifically made in my original post as these are the actual mechanics that I haven't yet decided on:

Buildings:

Spending Technology to do research ventures:

Technology for Stability or Economy

Culture for Unrest

Culture for Edicts

Events

Other ideas are welcomed

Robert

FYI - I'm also planning on having the Alignment of the kingdom give a bonus to either CPs or TPs.

This is my initial inclination:

Robert

I wanted to share a subset of mechanics that I have been developing for use in the kingdom building aspect of the campaign. Some of this was inspired by the Civilization console games.

I am hoping to get feedback, and also additional ideas to incorporate for use with this mechanic. What other facets can these elements affect/augment? What events can they play a role in and why and how? etc.

This is the actual post I made on my gaming messageboard for the players to read. (they do not yet know that this is not actually part of the published campaign).

Culture Vs Technology

Note a couple of the buildings that I considered being "unlocked" from technology advancement are: sewers, and aquaducts. These ideas I got from previous posts - specifically with aquaducts helping in fire disasters or drought, and sewers helping in plaques or floods.

Other ideas for "advanced" buildings and how they can help in events would be appreciated.

More ideas will most likely come after I read the rules on mass combat in the new Kingmaker issue I just got - but I'm waiting to apply these concepts to that after I consider all the possibilities they have on actual building of the kingdom.

Your comments are appreciated.

Robert

According to my Subscriptions page, it shows my last order containing several books including Kingmaker 5 was shipped out on 7/9; however as of today's mail delivery it is still not here. That is over two weeks and I'm in Northern California - not far from Washington.

I already have an email confirming my next shipment will be shipped out by end of this week and unfortunately I'm still jonsing for the last one.

Please help - are you able to track this shipment at all?

Robert

Maybe...
Aqueduct/canal grants immunity to fire disaster.
Sewers grant immunity to plague.

I think that's a great idea. In fact I'm going to look at the list of events and see what other "disasters" on the list can be benefitted by certain structures.

Robert

I would say that if you go the village route, you should probably get rid of the Camp/Mine/Fort rules. I proposed those rules in the first place as a way to allow some kind of exploitation of non-farmable hexes, but really they are just ways to plant a Mill or Watchtower outside of a city hex.

Just out of curiosity, Jason; why would you propose having one mutually excected of the other?

Why cannot the kingdom have towns/villages and have camps, which IIRC, was suggested as more of a lumber mill in a forest hex, which cannot have farm anyways. I'm thinking if you have only villages/towns, and no camps for lumber, the forest hexes will still never be utilized - in favor of only farms being developed into villages etc.

I am of the opinion that they don't need to be mutually exclusive. But i'm the sage on that; so just picking your brain on what you see as the problem with that notion....?

Thanks
Robert

Hey Berhagen, this is an interesting idea that I like a lot.

I have decided to incorporate these with the following changes:

Town: 4 2x2 squares (16 blocks)
.5 consumption (round up)

Village or Hamlet 2 2x2 squares (8 blocks)
.25 consumption (round up)

Essentially you could have 4 villages or 2 villages and 1 town for the consumption of one city district. Total blocks would only be 32 - which is four less than a city district for the same consumption; there in lies some of the balance.

The only question I now have is in regards to the upgrading comments:

"Upgrade from a farm, camp or fishery."

I know what a farm is, I saw another thread talking about a camp, but I can't find info on a fishery. So what is a fishery (as it relates to the game - I know what a fishery IS - just can't find it's existance in this game).

Robert

I was interested in making a more robust list of events that can be had during the event phase.

I was wondering if people have already been adding extra entries to that list.....?

Robert