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Blue Dragon

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158 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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As far as actually playing the game goes what I find fun is:

1) When I surprise the players, usually with a big reveal and they think it’s cool.
2) When the players surprise me by doing something clever or putting things together sooner then I thought they would.

Basically, as DM/GM I run the game and already know the area, encounters, NPC’s, story, etc. so the only thing that really makes it worth doing is seeing things unfold in unexpected ways and seeing the players having a great time.

Having said that I still prefer a 50/50 split between playing and running games, unfortunately it tends to be me running the game 90% of the time.

To be honest I'm not convinced there is a nice equation that describes the pattern of increase. Looking at the numbers and how it increases in an excel spreadsheet show some weird jumps where it either jumps up by a lot more then it was or even decreases how much experience is required for the next level.

It kind of feels like someone was playing with an equation but wanted the numbers to look nicer so they manually adjusted them for various reason such as wanting them to be rounded off nice after the increases, but then needed to pull the increase back into line after doing that.

Being a math person I'm curious myself, but at least initially looking at it I'm not convinced there is an equation that will do what you want. Maybe an equation with a list of rules... maybe.

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Interjecting reality can be fun provided the group is OK with it and what is being interjected is, in fact some representation of reality. In the years I've been playing I've noticed when numbers start climbing it's good to convert those units into something we are more familiar with to gain a better perspective.

Having said all that, just so you know, 330 feet per 6 seconds is about 37.5 miles per hour, so a speeder chase it is not :)

Also for a little more perspective, when I googled it I found that most birds appear to typically fly in the 10~40 mile per hour range. Hope that helps.

Actually, I was going to agree with everyone else at first, but after thinking about it I’m not convinced that making someone forget something would be overstepping, it’s pretty close but it’s not necessarily an unreasonable suggestion. A person can absolutely make themselves forget something, ever heard of a suppressed memory? A better example is hypnotism where the hypnotist tells their “victim” upon awakening you won’t remember any of this and then they don’t. I frequently compare the suggestion spell to being hypnotized but being magical it’s faster and has a better chance of working.

Now with hypnotism it doesn’t always work, many people still remember what happened after “waking” from a suggestive state, and those that don’t usually regain their memory over a period of time, usually within a few hours if not a few minutes of being released from it. Also, it suppressing anything that affected a large span of time in a person’s life, like that they had a brother or sister, would fail, but I could see it temporarily causing them to forget something that just happened.

Naturally when the suggestion spell ended they’d remember again and act accordingly, but I think whether or not it works may be dependent on the GM’s discretion and what exactly you asked them to forget. Personally, as long as it was a recent event “just happened” and not terribly traumatic I think I’d allow it. Again, with the caveat that no matter how you worded it would not be permanent, it’d just last until the spells effect ended, so 1 hour / caster level.

Umbral Reaver wrote:

There's a thing common to fantasy that irks me, but seems to be nearly unavoidable. It's the unrepeatable act.


I dislike these as well. In my games they do not exist. However, that doesn’t mean there aren’t stories and such, but rather that the stories rarely tell everything. To use your own example, a story may tell of how Bess the Blacksmith acquired a great dragon's heart and used it to heat her forge and then forge a sword that was forever as hot as a dragon's fire, setting ablaze all it touches and granting its bearer immunity from all forms of fire.

However, it may have neglected to mention that she had been a master smith, that she had to make special preparations to prevent the forge it from literally going up in flames, that the sword she made represented an accumulation of work and experimentation with many failed attempts, that her final attempt taxed her so greatly she nearly died, and finally, in creating the blade so much magic and essence was drawn in from the heart itself that the forges magic was weakened to the point that a second such blade may have been impossible.

For the most part, it’d take some time to do between adventures, but if a PC wants to pursue such an activity in there off time, I let them. First they have to research the truths behind the legend and figure out how they are going to replicate the feat, they may even take an idea and decide to make something new or try to improve on the design, but they may also fail and need to try again several times before they achieve their goal depending on just what they are trying to do and how difficult it is.


Also if you are looking for direction I’d like to hear more about the martial arts. Being a martial artist I’m always interested in what others come up with, both the fluff and the mechanics.

@bigrig: I apologize, I misread your post, you meant that there was no specific rule to even override the general one. I read that as you saying that specific rules do not normally override general rules when they conflict. At the time I had not even formed a solid opinion one way or the other I just didn't agree with your argument... but then I didn't read it right either <sigh> *deletes needless paragraphs*

Now as to the actual rule and how it works. So far as I can tell I agree with everything Tyrannon said here:

Tyrannon wrote:

"This rest is treated as 8 hours of sleep for such

abilities. This rest doesn't refresh uses of mythic power
or any mythic abilities that are limited to a number of
times per day."

In bold. Now, (to play devil's advocate), it does say it counts as 8 hours. Therefore, would that not mean, that since it

counts as counts as 8 hours, it overcomes the "You cannot regain spells you have cast within the last 8 hours."

If so, then the mythic point rest/ recovery counting as 8 hours of rest also clears as it would, by default rest rules

(correct me if I am wrong Rynjin [you do know your rules mate]) the 8 hour recent casting limit?

In italics: This, by RAI (to me only), seems to outline the limitation of the rest. Using my brain to make my mind up &

reading comprehension to understand the intent, this gives the guidelines on what is not covered. Which is anything based off

of Mythic power. Therefore, to me, it would potentially allow the recent casting limit to be overcome.

So to my mind the only real question is was it the intent to allow spell casters to overcome the spells per day barrier or not. That I'm less then certain of. I suspect that by RAW probably not but by RAI maybe. For me I'll probably allow it with my normal caveat which is that you can't sleep when you just aren't tired :)

Consequently, blowing your spells and trying to go back to bed an hour after you got up simply won't work. But that houserules territory so I won't bother going any further into that. I've most been following this thread because I have a group that is mythic tier 2 and wanted to have this fully thought out before they hit tier 3 :)

Someone said wrote:

This power does not have words that say the specific overrides the general.

Therefore, it doesn't.

As far as I'm aware, any time their is a conflict specific rules always override general ones. It doesn't need to be explicitly called out over and over again. It may be nice when it does but it isn't necessary.

I understand how it could have been seen to be to powerful. The idea of some low level character defeating a T-rex single handedly was always weird. Yes I know GM's can avoid situations like that, but that does mean that the feat was fine as it was. I can avoid almost any situation and am more then capable of challenging any player I GM for. That doesn't mean everything in pathfinder is perfectly balanced does it?

Now having said that lets take a detailed look at crane wing.

- BAB +5 or monk level 5
- Dodge
- Improved unarmed strike
- Crane style
- Must have a hand free
- Must be fighting defensively or using total defense

Benefits if fighting defensively:
- gain a +4 AC bonus against a single attack that may or may not hit normally


Benefits if using total defense:
- block a single attack that would have hit
** "Hidden" cost - cannot attack that round or make any AoO

Out of curiosity, does anyone think that sounds worth taking? I have no problems with the idea that a change needed to be made but I respectfully disagree with the extent to which it was taken. Now I play a home game with house rules so I'll deal with it in my game however I see fit, but I thought I should express my opinion in the hopes that it will be changed to something that I will not feel the need to house rule.

I usually describe it as an highly interactive choose your own adventure where the players make choices bases on their characters capabilities and the game master describes the results of those choices, followed by some random example of play.

Though now I may also send those interested a link to this thread to see how other players describe it :)

rorek55 wrote:
hey, have you seen the "judo master" monk?...

No I haven't, I've seen ki throw used and thought a little about something similar but never fully pursued it, I'll have to look at and see how it shapes up if I can find it on the forums.

Someone said wrote:
Also, Perfect Strike cannot be used with temple sword, so the final build that you posted has some issues, unless I am missing something.


It appears you are correct, I didn't realize they spelled out only specific monk weapons that it could be used with, that's disappointing.

warning minor rant:
so the weapon adept, an archetype that is supposed to be specifically focused or being good with monk weapons, can only be use perfect strike for five monk weapons? What's the point in that exactly, to give them an ability they can't use most of the time? Stunning fist would be better at least getting a ki focus weapon would let you use it with whatever you wielded.

I sincerely hope that was a mistake and someone meant for them to be able to at least use it with whatever weapon they used with way of the weapon master. *shakes head*

Well, my opinion of perfect strike not withstanding, I don't need to change much, they just can't use perfect strike with their temple sword. That does hurt but they are still effective. I do agree though a similar build made using the hungry ghost monk may be better... depends on what you want to play, ki mystic has some fun support options but can't be used with hungry ghost monk, so it'd be more of a damage dealer then a blend.

I'll have to think about that and tweak the guide a little. I am however going to wait and see if any other problem crop up first. I'd prefer to only have to fix it once. Particularly since I have to add a new link every time I do.

@Adokas: Well you never know, I could, and the description and reviews were interesting, but before I'd think about incorporating it I'd have to buy it, read it, play with some builds, and finally do a write up that would probably need a separate section since it's a 3rd party publisher.

So while it's possible it wouldn't be for some time if at all. It does look interesting though so maybe, but I don't know if and/or when I might do. Certainly no time soon, I have other things I need to be focusing on atm.

Actually I already had that as part of the guide though it'd have been nice to know about back when I made it originally xP

On a side note I also include the archetype combination possibilities for the racial archetypes in the advanced race guide which don't appear to be included in the threads you link.

Thank you though, maybe I'll look through it later to help me check to see if I made any mistakes on mine when I was doing.


So I spent so time updating and adding a few things to my guide. It now includes the following in addition to what was there:

- a brief description of each race from the advanced race guide
- a look at the seven race specific monk archetypes
- four functional but not necessarily optimized example builds at the end
- a couple minor alterations to color coding after having play with some of the abilities some more.
- a slight change to the color coding format for races

since I don't know any way to preserve the old link here is a new link to the updated version of the guide.

As always, constructive opinions are welcome. Let me know if you disagree with anything and, more importantly, give reasons why so I can look it over and make changes if needed.

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@ Durngrun Stonebreaker: Alright, I think I understand part of the problem, the way you run charm person seems odd to me. I think I get what you are trying to say but I don’t think I can agree with it and I suspect others feel the same way which is why so many people have a problem with what you are saying. Let me see if I can explain.

Someone said wrote:
I just see it as sort of a magical lie. That's why there is a charisma check (to convince them to do something they normally wouldn't) instead if a bluff check. The spell is compelling the person to follow your commands, just making them more receptive to your requests.

First the charisma check is because you are not lying to them, you are trying to convince them to do something. If you do lie you will in fact need a bluff check as well. Also, if it is supposed to be some sort of magical lie it seems to me it should be a bluff check rather than using saving throws and charisma checks so I’m not sure I understand the first part of your argument.

Second, how does it make someone more receptive to your requests? To me this sounds like a drug impeding a person ability to think or reason somehow. I don’t understand how this would translate to the equivalent of a lie.

Someone said wrote:
The lie in the case if Charm Person is the caster is your friend. In my games this is all that Charm Person does, magically convince that person the caster is their friend. Everything after that follows from that lie.

I don’t know about you but I’m fairly certain I couldn’t walk up to anyone, lie that I was there friend, and get them to just believe me and I would challenge even the best con artists out there to do it and be suddenly considered a person’s friend just the same as if they’d known them for years, they may be treated similarly, but to be truly considered the same as a real friend, I seriously doubt it. So once again I am back to seeing it as a drug rather than a lie. For me at least I just don’t see how it can be treated the same as a lie.

In short, the way I see it, you are magically altering an individual’s state of mind. A lie can be believed or not, a person has a choice. You are removing the ability for a person to even make that choice which basically strips them of a portion of their free will. I don’t really understand how you can think of it as a lie. Lies do not take away free will, drugs however can, which is why I believe this is far more similar to a drug then to a lie and consequently why I’m having difficulty seeing your argument that it could be merely the same as a lie.

In fact I'll even take things a step further and say that even if you are the best con artist on the planet and can in fact convince someone absolutely that you are their friend or even their very best friend it is still not the same thing. The end result may be the same, but one way you are taking away free will and the other way you are not. For me at least that distinction makes a tremendous difference.

Petty Alchemy wrote:
Note that Flurry doesn't treat you as full BAB for attacks, just CMB. So it puts you behind on attacks from a normal monk.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Yes you are correct, but if you chose to be a maneuver master you generally don’t want to be attacking normally or you’d have chosen a different archetype and when you do you can still mix attacks and the maneuvers from flurry of maneuvers which imo more than compensates for the loss. Did you mean that you felt it should be specifically noted under flurry of maneuvers?

I can do that, after the current semester is over I’m thinking about revisiting the monk guide and touching it up. At that time I will read through the comments and start tweaking the guide. I also would like to add the race specific archetypes from the advanced race guide.

Petty Alchemy wrote:
Also you mention that you can use Reliable and Meditative Maneuver together, but you can't. They both take a swift action.

Ouch that’s disappointing… I have always played that you could trade a standard action for a move action or a move action for a swift action but apparently that’s not the case. That was not meant to be a house rule but I’ve played that way so long I think I’ll have to add it now. Will plan to fix it in my future update. Let me know if you spotted anything else and check back around New Year’s hopefully I’ll have a link to a revised version.


There are several other responses above I haven’t had time to read but I will in the future, I have both school and work so I really haven’t had time to do anything but when the semesters over I’ll be revisiting this thread and looking to do a fresh update on my guide so if anyone has any corrections or suggestions let me know and hopefully I’ll have an updated version ready for New Year’s, at least that’s my goal.

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Well, I believe things should make sense so I’m normally alright making judgment calls like this or playing with others that do. However, in this case I have two problems. First, any time I make such a call I always allow the player(s) to change their action. This is only fair since they have a right to expect things to more or less follow RAW unless informed otherwise ahead of time. I’d like to have everything in house rules but that simply isn’t realistic. There will always be occasions that you didn’t think of so you have to be able to deal with them and move on.

Having said that, your GM seems confused. The way he envisions a wyvern isn’t accurate. First, a wyvern is only 8 feet tall, the other 8 feet is just tail, and it’s entirely possible to wrestle and pin someone that big, very difficult of course, but still possible, so you should definitely have been able to pin a wing and ground him or at least severely restrict its movement. Having it do nothing was not only a blatant disregard for RAW but also how things should have worked.

Second 120 feet per round is all of about 14 miles per hour… uh, yea that wouldn’t have impeded you at all, especially when you can move at nearly 23 miles per hour yourself.

So in any case, as a GM I’d probably have kept to the RAW on this one, though I may have said you couldn’t completely pin it. Still it wouldn’t have been going anywhere fast. Now having said that, as a player I’d have politely objected and give my reasons why and, if he still kept to his ruling which did not follow RAW and was not at all what I expected, asked to change my action. Then I’d have argued more after the game once I figured out things like its actual size and speed in hopes or reversing any future ruling to that effect.

I’m going to expand on my answer a bit. As far as I am aware there is no single spell or ability that would allow it though it may be possible to boost a spell high enough I'm not sure. Having said that doesn’t mean it can’t be done. Now several people have mentioned GM fiat. That’s essentially true since they’d have to say whether or not your idea would or could work. However, I dislike that phrase since it tends to be referring to a GM ignoring existing rules or doing something that makes no sense other then it’s what they decided would happen.

This isn’t exactly that kind of situation. There are perfectly valid, albeit powerful spells that could conceivably work but if and how it would work is something the GM will have to ultimately say. Much like a character spontaneously wanting to swing from a chandelier during a bar fight. You should be able to try it, but the GM has to decide if it’s possible, for example can the chandelier support your weight to start with, and if so what are the mechanics, skill checks, etc. that will be involved.

My suggestion would be talk to the GM and simply ask if something like a wish/miracle in conjunction with a true resurrection could work or if, using a skill like knowledge (arcana), you could figure out what might. Perhaps he’ll decide that a wish could tie several resurrection spells together and as long as you have enough total caster levels to reach 1,000 years back. Or maybe he’ll make a judgment call and veto it altogether. Ultimately however I believe you are going to have to take it up with your GM.

Oh and also their actually may be several ways to do it depending on what's allowed, such as using various 3rd party material, but I'm keeping away from that at the moment since idk what's allowed.

Sure, it's ultimately up to the GM as to whether or not it would work but personally I would allow a carefully worded wish or miracle used in conjunction with true resurrection to work without any problem... provided that the person being rezzed want to return that is.

That last part would be a pretty big catch. After being in the afterlife for 1,000 years who'd want to come back? Unless their afterlife has been horrible for some reason they aren't likely to have any reason to return.

Mercurial wrote:
At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat

This part means that you may select a style feat such as snake style or grab the elemental fist feat without paying any attention to their requirements. It does not let you grab someting like snake fang without having it's requirements, that'll come later... sort of.

Mercurial wrote:
He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat.

This means that the only prerequisite you must meet is the Elemental Fist feat. So, for example, if you want to take djinn style you must have grabbed the elemental fist feat first. It does NOT mean you have to meet any of the prerequisites for elemental fist.

Mercurial wrote:
Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path

Finally this means that a master of many styles may ignore any of the prerequisites of a feat in a styles path provided that he has learned the appropriate style first.


So at 1st level you could take the snake style as a bonus feat and at 2nd level you could grab snake fang as a bonus feat, but you could not take them both at 1st level since you only have one bonus feat.

Alternitively you could start with your other class, grab two levels placing 2 points in sense motive, and then level dip grabbing snake style as your normal feat and snake fang as your bonus feat. That way you can avoid taking more then a 1 level dip in MoMS if that's what you want.

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Bellona wrote:
Explosive decompression causes him to take 3d6 hp damage (no save) on the first round of exposure. (This is taken from Distant Worlds.)

I’d probably allow a reflex save for half myself. I would think that if a character immediately expels the air from their lungs they should take little or no damage. The reason for reflex rather than fortitude is that it’s a question of how fast you react and exhale rather than physical endurance.

Bellona wrote:
There is no air to breathe but he can hold his breath for (Constitution score x2) rounds.

As you mention a little later I’d definitely reduce this to their constitution score in rounds rather than double that. Without air in their lungs they definitely shouldn’t be able to hold their breath as long.

I like your idea to let them hold their breath normally and take explosive decompression damage each round. If you do that I wouldn’t allow any save for half damage since their choosing not to exhale. However I think I’d force a fortitude save each round to determine if they are able to keep holding their breath.

Bellona wrote:
Sound does not travel, so V component spells could be hard to cast (if not impossible)

I’d lose the ambiguity, spells with V components would definitely be impossible to cast. A silence spell is much nicer to a person and still prevents them. Also remember that anyone trying to hold their breath normally will be taking constant damage and require concentration checks to cast anything.

Bellona wrote:
One could also argue for the Staggered condition, possibly as a result of the explosive decompression.

Perhaps anyone taking damage from explosive decompression gains the staggered condition for one round? Not as sure about this but it sounds like a reasonable rule.

IejirIsk wrote:
i could write it in monkey blood i guess. but we have no way to collect any wood, short of deadfall. That and it seems we managed to get nabbed again.

Well it doesn't have to be wood either, but the idea is there, wood was just something that is tends to be readily available. I'm curious where are you now that you can't find any wood? A daggers all you'd need to "collect" some provided their is a tree in the area.

Of course the blood skin and bone of your enemies would work too but that seems a bit morbid... but hey, if it's all you got >:)

But then if you just got caught again you may have to wait a bit but I'd keep it mind.

IejirIsk wrote:
yea... something like that, shoulda been said at the get go. i've played nerfed char, so i dont mind too much, assuming eventually i'll get access to paper, so i can write my memorized spells down so i can use them more than once.

Just curious… who says you have to use a book or paper? Why can’t you grab some wood, a dagger, and carefully etch your “spell book” using makeshift components? Granted the cost would still have to be the same. Perhaps you would need to treat the wood or some such but for 40 gold worth of components is there any reason why you couldn’t create a makeshift book in the interim?

I have always been under the impression there would be nothing wrong with this, spell books are simply used because they are more convenient but with only 4 spells using 4 good quality boards cut to the right size should work fine. Certainly I allow my players to do so if they need or desire to. Or would that be a house rule? (And if it is maybe you should still ask your GM about it they might agree)

Well, for my dream game room, it’d do something along the lines of the following:

A spacious room with a nice thick carpet on the floor, a dimmer switch to adjust the lighting as desired, and several outlets for laptops and the like.

In the center, a solid hard wood rectangular table that has plenty of room for everyone and comfortable chairs.

Along the outer wall, waist high bookshelves running the length filled with all the appropriate books with a large tinted window that has a nice view and a thick curtain that can cut off all nearly all the light from the window when closed.

Along the inner wall, the door people come in and a large white board with dry erase markers, erasers, and magnetic clips for maps, etc.

Along the DM’s side, a projector in the corner, and a walk in closet with materials, minis, flip mats, etc. that are nice to have on hand but not necessarily always out.

Finally, along the wall opposite the GM, a mini fridge and small table for drinks, snacks, and other goodies, like pizza, maybe even a small microwave for reheating the pizza later in the evening.


Not that I’ve ever thought of this before of course, this is all just off the top of my head and all *cough* ;P

As for where I actually play, in the past it’s been the living room or dining room, usually at someone else’s house or my room on my computer when playing online with some of my friends who have moved away, assuming we can get our schedules to match up.

Well several good possibilities have been stated already but if you just feel the need to be able to defend it by RAW refer to this thread and keep in mind that everything stated would apply to a spell like raise dead as well.

Just decide if you should make it, and thus her, a little higher level, modify the spell in some way, or leave the sorcerer version the same as the cleric equivalent.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Okay, let's back up a little bit because people still aren't able to explain, in game mechanics terms, why the +5,000gp cost for raise dead is appropriate.

Umm… I’m pretty sure I did. Though you may disagree with me.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

So let's slightly alter the question:

Why is the cost for raise dead 5,000 gp? Why isn't it 100 gp, 1,000 gp, 7,350 gp, 10,000 gp, or 20,000 gp? Why is 5,000 gp the appropriate additional M cost for this spell?

For the same reason restoration costs 100 gold when used normally or 1,000 gold when used to remove a permanent energy level. Because whoever wrote it at the time felt that that amount would bring it in line with the power level it was set at. I’m not saying I agree with the cost. In fact, I think if it were reduced I'd be perfectly happy with the change and might even prefer it, but in any case I’d bet that’s why it’s written how it is.

I also agree that there may be other ways to alter the spell and remove the cost but I’m not sure how I’d handle it or if it’s needed.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
And why is raise dead so costly but teleport and plane shift are not? They're all the same spell level.

But raise dead does more then either teleport or planeshift. I see the cost as the balancing factor. You made a statement ealier…

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
It is literally easier and less expensive to instantly transport eight people to the outer plane where your dead friend's soul is than to call that dead friend's soul back into its natural body. That doesn't make sense to me from a game mechanics standpoint.

At first as was floored, I thought, he’s right if you can cast a spell and go straight to your friends soul the reverse should be any harder. Then I realized that’s not quite right. Yes, you can go to that plane but once you get there you’d have to use a divination spell like scrying to locate your friend, followed by either some overland travel or a teleport spell to reach them.

So raise dead essentially locates the soul on another plane, planeshifts it to your currently plane, teleports it to the body, and then brings the person back to life. Ya, I’m ok with the gold cost now.

Earlier you stated…

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Either raise dead is on par with other 5th-level spells, or it isn't. If it is, it doesn't need a costly material component. If it isn't, then it shouldn't be a 5th-level spell.

I suppose my response would be that it is, in fact, more powerful then other 5th level spells. But as to removing it I disagree. First, as you pointed out some nasty spells like disintegrate become available and a single bad save can ruin a Players day. I believe their needs to be a way to undo the problems that can occur when the dice gods frown on you. The 5,000 gold piece cost is there to justify making such a powerful spell 5th level.

Secondly, on the fluff side, it makes sense that someone could have reasonably found out a way to cast a more powerful spell by using pricey components that a higher-level spell simply wouldn’t need. And if you existed in such a world and possessed the skill wouldn’t you want such a spell available to you even if it was costly to use?

Having said that I agree with a lot of what has been said and would like really like to see the resurrect spell have the option to use it as a normal raise dead spell without the any material component. I believe I will add that into my games from here on. I may also extend breath of life’s “resurrection” window a little too, possibly to a flat two rounds to allow some breathing room, or perhaps to something like 1 round per 2 caster levels. I’ll have to think about it.

Unintentional bad pun there but I’ll keep it cause it made me chuckle.

Incidentally this is one of the most interesting debates I’ve read in a while :)

If your DM’s allows a minor overhaul swap your intelligence and strength and then apply reduce your wisdom by two (I’m guessing you have 2 points their from leveling but maybe not) and increase your strength to an 18. This will help your attack rolls considerably.

Next I’d look into attribute-enhancing items. Monks can benefit significantly through them and the more you enhance your attributes the stronger you’ll be. Again, make sure strength is boosted if you can but don’t neglect the others. If possible boost all your physical stats and your wisdom.

I would also suggest retraining Djinni style and taking Marid spirit instead and continuing with Marid coldsnap later down the line. Potentially entangling your target is nice and increases the chance that the following attacks will then hit, you can always be using marid style gaining the benefits such as cold resistance and reach. Later when you get whirlwind attack you’ll be able to make a single attack against every opponent within reach (10 feet when using Marid style) which could be fun if you still want to go that route.

Finally, if are allowed to do a little rebuilding and you get your strength up ditch weapon finesse since it’ll be useless. Instead I’d suggest either deep drinker for the extra ki during combat or spring attack to get closer to your goal of getting whirlwind attack.


If you can’t fix your monk or would rather not I’d suggest a ranger. It can be good in melee, has decent saves, plenty of skill points to play with, and I just think they are a fun class to play, of course they can all be fun but we each have our favorites :)

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In my personal opinion there really isn’t any clear distinction between the two. The characters a GM creates are simply other characters in a story. Flushing them out simply makes for a better more vibrant story with a world that has more depth to it. I have been GMing over 20 years and work in much the same way, in act based strictly off of what you’ve said in this thread I’d say we have very similar style. Now if I were to define a GMPC as a separate thing I would say that they are characters that have a fully flushed out character sheet AND that have become part of the PC group that adventures together.

As far as warning signs go, I have to say, no they are not any kind of a warning sign. GMPC’s, as I'm defining them, are merely another tool in the GM tool belt. They can be used to flush out an incomplete party in small groups of people, to provide abilities that the party current lack so that they can face an upcoming challenge, or even as simply a way to nudge the party in the right direction or create a greater degree of interactivity between party members and add more role-playing opportunities.

That said, they are a tool that can be easily mishandled. While there is nothing inherently wrong with using them in the story or even having one of them take center stage for a bit, as with any good novel or movie, it’s important to make sure that these occurrences are brief and have a reason to occur within your story. The player’s characters, and not your NPC’s, GMPC’s, or whatever, are the main characters in the story and other characters (of any type) should not overshadow them.

Basically, the danger comes from those GM’s that stop making the story about the player’s characters and the decisions they make. If this happens, most players are likely to start feeling like they are just along for the ride and that can kill a game. But as long as everyone’s having a ball playing and likes were the game is going you shouldn’t concern yourself with the opinions of others.


Having said that, keep in mind that as you can see on this thread, there is no clear definition of what a GMPC is. In fact I almost started arguing with Evil Lincoln after reading his first post but after reading the rest I realized our only real difference of opinion was in our definitions. It’s not in any dictionary that I’m aware off and while definitions of different individuals are often similar, a small difference can lead to a large misunderstanding. This is likely why in some threads you can see such different opinions on them.

Foghammer wrote:
Help me understand what it is about these rules that is going to "fix" high level play. By my understanding, the game breaks down severely beyond 12th level (give or take a couple of levels, depending on who you ask). If mythic levels are taken alongside normal class levels (gestalt style?) and that increases the APL of the PCs, how is this patching that issue up?

Well, the way I understand it, and mind you this is just a guess based on everything I’ve been reading on these boards, it will help by allowing lower level characters to fight higher level opponents. This allows a GM to play with a group that say, doesn’t have teleport yet despite being the equivalent of 12th level characters (8 class levels plus 4 mythic levels).

The powers granted, and again this is just speculation, seem to be geared towards strong abilities that give characters fun things they can do without necessarily opening up the harder to deal with abilities such as teleportation and scrying (or at least not till they’d have it anyway through class levels). While a character still eventually gains these abilities, the creatures they are fighting will be considerably higher level by the time they have access to them and thus it’s easier for a GM to adjust, creature will have more options to thwart them, etc.

Again this is all speculation at this point, I’m really hoping one of the developers will hop on now that the weekend over and tell us everything that was said so we can get a better idea of how it all is suppose to work. I’m in the group that thinks it could be good or bad, it remains to be seen. That said, paizo has a pretty good track record so I’m cautiously optimistic and crossing my fingers.

Foghammer wrote:

I think the problem I was trying to articulate (and rolled a natural 1 on that attempt) is that, if these problems are perceived by so many already then adding such high numbers to the game at any level only serves to make it worse. On the surface anyway.

I mean, 3d6+wtf cure light wounds spells (I think I read this on the first page of the thread)? That's a ridiculous jump.

As for the powerful cure light wounds, remember the lower level characters wouldn't have access to higher level magic so the magic they did have would need a strong enough boost to compensate. After all my understanding is that the mythic levels grant hit points etc too so your lower level healing spells would need the boost to keep the party healed.

Time Lord (take 2):

So I made a few changes to flush them out a bit and give an idea of what you could do with them. The time thief is still the basis for everything but I made a few adjustments to make it more interesting, giving them a few flavorful abilities.

Description: The character has a unique relationship with time. This could be a result of magic experimentation, the blood of a powerful race in their background or something else altogether.

Powers: The character has a number of motes of time equal to 2 + half their level, each day after resting they regain any motes they have used. Motes of time may be spent to use any of the following powers. Each power uses exactly one mote of time unless otherwise stated in the description.

1) Act in the surprise round when the character would not normally be able to do so.

2) Gain a bonus to one attack roll, skill check, ability check, or saving throw provided the roll represents a single action that occurs entirely within a one round. When used the character gains a +2 bonus for each time mote spent up to a maximum of +8 if four are used.

3) Take an additional swift action that does not count against the characters normal limit of one per round.

4) Take a move action as a swift action.

5) Heal injuries as if having rested for a full day.

6) Take 10 on any single skill check made before the end of the characters next round.

7) Reroll one attack roll, skill check, ability check, or saving throw provided the roll represents a single action that occurs entirely within a one round.

Mastery: A character that masters this ability gains 2 aevum and the following two powers.

1) Rewind Personal Time – During the characters turn they may spend an aevum to “rewind” their bodies backwards in time. This causes them to undo any and all damage or other effects caused to them during the last round no matter what they were (including healing). Alternatively this may be used on another person for the same effect but doing so cost 2 aevum. Note that this can be used to even bring someone back to life if they died in the previous round. If used on an opponent they are allowed a Will save DC 10 + ½ the time lord character level + INT to negate its effects.

2) Celerity – By spending 1 aevum as a free action the character gains the benefits of an improved version of haste for 1 round per 2 character levels. This has the following benefits.

When making a full attack action, the character may make one extra attack with any weapon she is holding. The attack is made using her full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by haste or a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

The character gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls and a +2 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

All of the characters modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice her normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus and it affects the time thief’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.

Each round, the character may automatically dodge the first ranged attack they are aware of that would otherwise strike them.

Note: You may also want to consider allowing the character to learn other talents, advanced talents, and aevum abilities such as those listed under the time thief by using feats if the player want to expand their abilities further.

You will probably want to add a little more fluff to a few of the abilities but hopefully this works well for you.

I played with your idea and added another possibility, hope you like them :)

Fallen Lord of Hell:

Description: Character is a former lord of hell. He was usurped by another devil lord, and transformed by his successor Asmodeus chose to spare the devil lord's life instead of allow s/he to be destroyed, Asmodeus wipe the character's identity and implanted the character's soul into a baby, to grow and to suffer as a mortal. They are followed by an imp who swears fealty to them, but stays invisible most of the time yet does not (or cannot) reveal his true past. Eventually the character will start to develop devilish features and abilities.

Powers: Darkvision 60 foot (use the range of the characters base race if it is better), resist fire: 5, damage reduction 5/good, +4 bonus to all saves vs poison, protection vs good (3/day), summon devil 1/day (treat as summon monster but only may be used to summon CR equivalent devils or creatures with the fiendish template)

Mastery: A PC that has mastered this ability has their abilities enhanced as follows, darkvision now allows them to see through magical darkness as well as normal darkness, resist fire: 10, damage reduction becomes 5/good and silver, immune to poison, protection vs. good becomes circle of protection against good (3/day), and their summoning ability can be used twice per day instead of once.

Note: Lords of hell often have one or more abilities that are unlike typical abilities of other devils. After character creation I would create one additional ability specifically geared toward the character that had a hellish theme to it as well as an improved version for mastery.

Redemption (an alternate to mastery): If the character maintains a good alignment and adamantly refuses to use their active powers unless there is truly no other choice for an extended period of time, they may eventually be given a chance at redemption by a celestial being or good deity. How this plays out and if it’s successful is up to the GM and the player’s choices, the PC will not be told that they are being tested. If it is successful the PC’s power fade and seem to go away entirely and the imp will be killed, driven off, or leave on it’s own if it has not already happened.

At some future point when the character does something particularly noble and good that endangers them they will feel new power stir within them, a power completely different then what they felt before. The exact powers gained will depend of their alignment, a lawful good character would gain powers similar to that of an archon, neutral good characters would gain powers similar to that of an angel or agathion, and chaotic good characters would gain powers similar to an azata.

Additionally their custom power from being a lord of hell will undergo a dramatic transformation as well and they may gain a new celestial creature that follows them and keeps watch for signs of retribution from their previous life.

Time Lord:

And no not Doctor Who ;P

Description: The character has a unique relationship with time. This could be a result of magic experimentation, the blood of a powerful race in their background or something else altogether.

Powers: Each day the character gain a number of motes of time equal to half their level. These motes can be use the same way a time thief uses them.

Mastery: A character that masters this ability gains 2 aevum and two aevum powers appropriate for their charcter from the list under time thief

Note: I really like the time thief, it has some interesting and unique abilities your players probably haven’t seen so I’m stealing the idea for the time lord. Naturally I decreased the number of motes and such since they shouldn’t get a full class worth of abilities. Still I think this should be plenty to keep the player of the time lord entertained.

This amuses me. I have always enjoyed interesting and different ideas provided they are implemented well. May I make some suggestions/alteration? Never mind, I’m going to regardless ;P

The following are your ideas but with some changes to each, use anything you like and don’t if you don’t. I’m just having fun thinking about how I might use your idea should I even choose to xP


Description: A PC is the child of a deity they just don’t know it yet.

Powers: The player’s character may attempt to cast limited wish at will. Each time this is attempted they must make fortitude save and a will against the spells DC in order. Failing the fortitude save results in their failure to hold on the enormous energies required causing the attempt to fail and dealing 4d6 points of damage to the them. Failing the will save means that they fail to properly control the energies resulting in either a random result chosen by the GM or a corrupted wish in which case it works but not as intended.

Mastery: A character that has mastered this ability may choose to either use a limited wish as a full round action with no chance for error or a full wish as per the ninth level spell with the same stipulations they would normally use for a limited wish, using the “spell” DC of the ninth level wish.

Ancient (Psionic):

Description: A PC is an ancient, a descendent of a lost branch of their race that were mentally superior even gaining access to mental powers that rivaled magic.

Powers: Mind Blast; cone effect, range 20 feet, creatures with Int score must make will save DC 10 + INT mod or be staggered until the end of its next turn. Detect Minds; (acts similar to tremorsense with a range 15 feet, allowing them to sense creatures with an Int Score), and Psychic weapon; can manifest a weapon of any type the character has proficiency with, PC chooses type, identical to normal weapon of that type, but made of pure thought, can manifest and dismiss as free action, if weapon is disarmed or dropped the weapon simply disappears.

Mastery: A character that has mastered this ability has the following adjustments made to their powers. Mind Blast: range increased to 40 feet, DC increased to 10 + ½ their character level + INT, Detect Minds: range increased to 30 feet, and Psychic weapon: the weapon created can have “magical” properties equal to the equivalent of a +3 weapon.

Blue Mage:

Powers: When a PC is attacked by a monster using a specific named ability (i.e. Ankheg's Acid Line), as long as the PC survives the attack. That PC is then able to mimic the ability once per day until they have absorbed a new attack. This does not work against spells or spell like abilities. The characters basic physical characteristic change slightly depending on the ability gained and this change is noticeable accentuated when using the ability they gained.

Mastery: A PC that has mastered this ability may use the named ability as often as the creature the gained it from. Additionally, when attacked by a new named ability they may choose whether or not to absorb it in place of their current ability. If the choose to absorb it they gain a +4 circumstance bonus to any saving throw against the attack.


Description: A PC is a standard race, but has the blood of a legendary dragon in their family’s linage that grants them powerful abilities.

Powers: Dragon’s breath: Once per day the character may use dragon’s breath as per the spell of the same name using their character level as their caster level. Additionally, the character may only use the breath weapon appropriate for the legendary dragon whose blood flows in their veins. Form of the dragon: As a full round action the PC may attempt to transform into a dragon as per the spell form of the dragon I. This transformation requires a successful fortitude save against a DC of 20 and can only be used for a number of minutes equal to their character level. The character may revert back to normal as a standard action at any time preserving remaining minutes but any time spent transformed is always rounded up to the nearest minute to determine time remaining. As with dragon breath the color of the dragon form must be the same as the legendary dragon in their family history.

Mastery: A character that has mastered this ability has the following adjustments made to their powers. Dragon’s breath is now usable twice a day in their humanoid form. Form of the dragon: no longer requires a fortitude save to transform and now mimics the affects of the spell form of the dragon II. Additionally, the character gains their resistance against the appropriate element permanently even while in their humanoid form.


Description: A PC is a standard race, but is born immortal (highlander style).

Powers: The PC’s body doesn’t age past middle age, or whenever they “die” the first time. At death the PC dies, however after 24 hours have past their body restores itself, whole and uninjured, any body parts removed are restored and the removed piece withers into dust. Can only truly die when the PC’s head is cut off or their body is completely destroyed.

Mastery: The PC gains fast healing: 3. Since the character only dies if they are decapitated or have their body destroyed this fast healing is always in effect, if they are killed they waken uninjured after either 24 hours or however long it takes for this ability to completely heal their injuries, whichever come first.


Description: The PC is the child of a werewolf with astounding mental discipline that mastered their transformation and preserved they mind and alignment (magic my or may not have been used to aid in this).

Powers: The character is a natural lycanthrope. As a result of their parent control and whatever magic was used the PC does not begin showing symptoms until later in life (when the GM decides to introduce it during a full moon).

Changes at night on full moon. Type; shapechanger, Natural armor +2, dr 5/silver in animal and hybrid form.

Change shape (Ex); All lycanthropes have three forms—a humanoid form, an animal form, and a hybrid form. Equipment does not meld with the new form between humanoid, hybrid form and animal form. A natural lycanthrope can shift to any of its three alternate forms as a move-equivalent action. An afflicted lycanthrope can assume animal or hybrid form as a full-round action by making a DC 15 Constitution check, or humanoid form as a full-round action by making a DC 20 Constitution check. On nights when the full moon is visible, an afflicted lycanthrope gains a +5 morale bonus to Constitution checks made to assume animal or hybrid form, but a –5 penalty to Constitution checks made to assume humanoid form. An afflicted lycanthrope reverts to its humanoid form automatically with the next sunrise, or after 8 hours of rest, whichever comes first. A slain lycanthrope reverts to its humanoid form, although it remains dead. An involuntary change always changes a werewolf to its animal form.

Lycanthropic Empathy; In any form, natural lycanthropes can communicate and empathize with animals related to their animal form. They can use Diplomacy to alter such an animal's attitude, and when so doing gain a +4 racial bonus on the check. Afflicted lycanthropes only gain this ability in animal or hybrid form.

Rage (Ex) When first involuntary transformed per full moon a werewolf is possessed by inner reserves of strength and ferocity. A werewolf rages for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + Constitution modifier. Entering a rage is a free actions. A werewolf in a rage gains a +4 morale bonus to Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, the werewolf takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the werewolf 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in rage, a werewolf cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics) or any ability that requires patience or concentration. Also while in a rage the werewolf cannot distinguish between friend or foe and attacks the nearest creature until it is slain or until it receives damage from another creature, where it turns its attention. The werewolf will always attack the last creature to harm it. A werewolf is fatigued after a rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage.

Ability Scores: +2 Wis, –2 Cha, in all forms; +2 Str, +2 Con and the scent ability, in hybrid and animal forms. Lycanthropes have enhanced senses but are not fully in control of their emotions and animalistic urges. In addition to these adjustments to the base creature's stats, a lycanthrope's ability scores change when he assumes hybrid or animal form. In human form, the lycanthrope's ability scores are unchanged from the base creature's form. In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope's ability scores are the same as the base creature's or the base animal's, whichever ability score is higher.

Mastery: When raging the character may make a will save DC 20 to control their actions for that round. They get a +4 bonus to their save to avoid hurting loved ones or close friends.

Arcane Battery:

Description: The character’s mother is/was a powerful spell caster that was forced to use powerful dangerous magic frequently during her pregnancy. Somehow they survived against all odds and as a result developed a unique ability to absorb magical energy.

Powers: Character absorbs arcane magic in the form of levels. Whenever an arcane spell, which is subject to spell resistance, is cast upon the character, the character makes a will/fortitude save DC 10 + twice the spells level. If successful the character absorbs the spell into their body negating all effects of the spell. The player can release any amount of spell levels as a bolt of arcane lightning in a 30-foot line, a wave of arcane energy in a 20-foot cone, or a close explosive burst of energy with a 10-foot radius. If a character chooses to release their stored spell levels, they must release all stored spell levels. For each spell level absorbed the burst or cone does 1d6 damage, reflex save for half DC 10 + ½ the character level + int modifier. A character can only absorb a number of spell levels equal to their HD. Any excess is immediately released as a 10 ft. burst emanating from the character. A character is always immune to its own arcane damage resulting from this ability.

Mastery: The PC can now absorb up to twice their character level in spell levels and can release however many spell levels they want rather then all of nothing. Additionally the ranges/area of effects of all three possible releases are doubled.

Chaos Touched:

Character is touched by chaos, once per day roll on the table below, the character is affected by the result until the character either next rests for 4 or more hours or until 24 hours have past at which time the character rolls again.

Power: d% Ability
1 You can animate a 1 HD skeleton, as per animate dead, once per day as a spell-like ability.
2 You possess some type of extra sensory organ, granting you all-around vision.
3 You enjoy being cut. The first time each day you take slashing damage, you gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls for the following round.
4 You can use mage hand 3 times per day as a spell-like ability.
5 Inherited memories grant you a +2 racial bonus on one Knowledge skill of your choice.
6 You can levitate yourself plus 10 pounds at will, as per the spell levitate. This is a supernatural ability.
7 You can eat and gain nourishment from ash, cinders, dust, and sand.
8 You gain a +1 bonus on all attack and damage rolls against good-aligned outsiders.
9 You gain an additional +2 racial bonus on your Charisma.
10 You possess a bite that is treated as a natural weapon and deals 1d4 damage.
11 Once per day you can exhibit a burst of speed, moving as if your base land speed were 50 for one move action.
12 You do not need to sleep. You are not immune to sleep effects.
13 You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against disease.
14 Your base land speed increases by 5 feet.
15 You possess a fiendishly cunning tongue, granting you a +2 racial bonus on all Diplomacy checks.
16 You have oversized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty.
17 You possess claws that are treated as natural weapons and deal 1d4 damage.
18 You gain DR 2/bludgeoning.
19 You gain a Swim speed of 30 feet.
20 You gain a +2 bonus on your CMB.
21 You possess fiendish luck. Once per day you can reroll one die. You must take the result of this second roll.
22 You can detect evil, as per the spell, three times per day.
23 You never need to drink to survive.
24 You can produce a barb from your body once per day. This barb is removable and is treated as a dagger.
25 You gain acid resistance 5.
26 Your body produces searing heat. Any creature that grapples you takes 1d4 points of fire damage per round.
27 You can speak two additional languages spoken by extraplanar beings.
28 Any evil creature you call via summon monster remains for 3 rounds longer than usual.
29 You gain a +1 bonus on all Reflex saving throws.
30 You can alter your shadow to make it appear as any creature or object of your size or smaller.
31 You can burrow through dirt, sand, and loose ground at a rate of 5 feet per round.
32 You can sense weakness, granting you a +1 bonus on all rolls to confirm critical hits.
33 You gain DR 2/silver.
34 You do not lose consciousness until you reach –5 hit points.
35 You possess long limbs and a powerful grip, features that grant you a +2 racial bonus on all Climb checks.
36 You can communicate telepathically with any sentient creature with which you are in contact.
37 You can use death knell once per day as a spell-like ability.
38 At will, you can spend a full-round action concentrating to receive the benefits of tremorsense 60 feet for 1 round.
39 Once per day you can benefit from a burst of speed, moving at double your normal speed for 1 round.
40 As a full-round action, you can bleed and collect 5 sp worth of precious blood per day.
41 You possess spell resistance equal to 10 + half your Hit Dice.
42 The spell animate dead can return you to life as per the spell raise dead 1d4 times.
43 Your fiendish sorcery ability treats your Charisma as if it were 3 points higher.
44 You are unusually short, granting you all the traits of a Small creature.
45 Your features are subtly malleable, granting you a +2 racial bonus on all Disguise checks.
46 You gain an additional +2 racial bonus on your Intelligence.
47 You can use curse water 3 times per day as a spell-like ability.
48 You are invisible to all unintelligent undead. This is a supernatural ability.
49 You are healed by both positive and negative energy.
50 Your skin is unnaturally tough, granting you a +1 natural bonus to your AC.
51 You can speak to all birds.
52 You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against poison.
53 You possess the scent special ability.
54 You gain DR 2/piercing.
55 You are unnaturally sly, granting you a +2 racial bonus on all Sleight of Hands checks.
56 Once per day you can spit acid. This glob deals 1d4 points of acid damage and has a range increment of 5 feet.
57 Your body exudes freezing cold. Any creature that grapples you takes 1d4 points of cold damage per round.
58 You heal double the normal amount of damage by resting.
59 You gain a +1 bonus on all Will saving throws.
60 You gain a +2 bonus to your initiative at night.
61 You can manipulate any armor, gauntlets, or shield you wield, causing them to grow spikes. These spikes last only as long as you wear your armor.
62 You can use deathwatch 3 times per day as a spell-like ability.
63 You have some manner of inhuman sensory organ. You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against gaze attacks.
64 Once per day, for 1 round, you may see through any substance less than 5 feet thick—except for lead—as if it were glass. This is a supernatural ability.
65 Your strange physiology grants you a +2 racial bonus on all Acrobatics checks.
66 You can drink and gain nourishment from ash, cinders, dust, and sand.
67 Your eyes glow fiendishly and you possess the see in darkness ability as if you were a devil.
68 You gain damage reduction 2/cold iron.
69 You can use fog cloud once per day as a spell-like ability.
70 You are aware of and can choose the result of any attempt to detect your alignment.
71 You can spend a full-round action once per day eating from a corpse to regain 1d6+1 hit points.
72 You can communicate telepathically with any evil creature within 50 feet.
73 You can use minor image 3 times per day as a spell-like ability.
74 Once per day, as a spell-like ability, you can animate a Small or smaller object for a number of rounds equal to your level. Treat this object as an animated object.
75 You gain sonic resistance 5.
76 You can hold your breath for 3 rounds longer than normal.
77 You can speak to insects.
78 Your skin is spiky. Any creature that attempts to grapple you takes 1d4 points of damage.
79 You receive a +1 bonus on all Fortitude saving throws.
80 You gain a +2 bonus on your CMD.
81 You can use rage on yourself once per day as a spell like ability.
82 You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects.
83 Once per day exposure to fire heals you 1d6 hit points. This does not negate fire damage.
84 You are immune to magic sleep and paralysis effects.
85 Supernatural awareness grants you a +2 racial bonus on all Perception checks.
86 Your anatomy is slightly unusual, giving you a 15% chance to ignore any critical hit.
87 You can survive on one-quarter the amount of food and water a human requires.
88 Any damage you deal with a melee weapon is treated as evil for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
89 You can use inflict light wounds once per day as a spell like ability.
90 You gain an additional +2 racial bonus on your Wisdom.
91 You gain damage reduction 2/slashing.
92 You can see creatures on the Ethereal Plane.
93 Once per day you may ask a corpse one yes-or-no question, as per the spell speak with dead. This is a spell-like ability.
94 You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against nausea.
95 You are flexible and slightly slimy, possessing a +2 racial bonus on all Escape Artist checks.
96 You can use ventriloquism at will as a spell-like ability.
97 As a standard action, once per day, you may suppress your unusual physical features for a number of minutes equal to your Con modifier, thus appearing human.
98 You receive +1 bonus hit point per level.
99 Once during the day you may mentally contact a fiendish ancestor to gain information, as per the spell commune. This is a spell-like ability.
100 Roll on this table twice, ignoring any further rolls of 100.

Mastery: The PC has two abilities from the list instead of one, always knows what their current ability is, and may force a reroll of the powers or effects they gained once per day but must take the new results regardless of what they think of them.

Note: I would increase this table to include more non-fiendish things. Chaos does not mean demon. But that’s just my opinion.

Ok, I may have overdid a little. These are, I think, a little stronger then you intended. But hey, I was having fun xP

As far as mastery and how that’s attained, if you like the idea I’ll leave it up to you. The idea of story driven abilities made me think it’d be fun if, at higher levels, when the abilities weren’t all that powerful anymore they could get a nice power boost. Hopefully you find some of this useful/usable but either way it entertained me for a while and that’s what’s important right? ;P

Covent wrote:

I have just found, Yet again anecdotal evidence, that area of effect heals are seriously lacking in power by the time you get them.

For example:
Healing math

This means that the only times the Cure XXX, mass heals do not outpace an average damage fireball ever for single target.

It also means that that they under the old rules average less than half of an at CR monsters average damage.

In my opinion that makes them completely worthless, as why should you have to blow an 8th level spell slot to "mostly" undo what a 3rd level spell can do?

How are you getting from point A to point B here? I agree with you that the healing spells could use a bump in power and never argued that, the point I was trying to make is you are close to giving them to big of a boost in power.

Using only your rules for enhancing cure spells works quite nicely, if you stop there. As I said above the cure light wounds, mass spell would heal 1d8+18 for an average of 22 health per person using just this enhancement and nothing else. This means it would undo most of the damage with a single casting even if everyone failed their save. And those that made their save would be healed for all of damage taken. And this is a 5th level spell, not 8th level one.

Also you aren’t taking into account resistances and abilities like evasion and improved evasion that can seriously hurt the ability for AoE spells to do damage in the first place but have no affect on the players that are being healed. In actual play 22 points per character is good and probably will eliminate the vast majority of the damage dealt by a typical fireball. With your cure critical wounds, mass spell at 5th level you could likely ignore the damage for 2 fireballs without any difficulty and this is simply too much in my opinion.

You seem to have this idea that mass cure spells should be able to at least equal the damage being dealt to the party and that line of thought goes to a bad place, I’ve been their. It’s a world were instead of fighting and defeating the enemy you simply outlast them… whoever runs out of healing first losses. I did not find that particularly fun. Healing spells should be weaker then the damage spells of the same level or the party will fight one fight and if the enemy has even decent healing, win through attrition, and then rest cause their low on healing magic. I can’t reiterate enough I have both been in and ran games were healing was made too powerful and it did not go well. Combat can get ridiculously long, many good tactics are rendered pointless, and the combat itself just stops being fun.

Covent wrote:
The Aoe numbers look great, however if you ever need to heal more than 4-5 people at a time your party is seriously bloated. This does not mean badwrongfun, it simply means that according to normal average party size you will never reach anywhere near your max number of targets.

Umm... I’m guessing you are again taking about without the changes to cure spells because in my post above I already showed that it only 2 to or 3 party members being healed will net you more healing then even the single target heal spell. Also, 4-5 people does not mean your party is seriously bloated a standard group is assumed to have 4 people and I find most groups have a mount, animal companion, or other creature such as an eidolon. So a normal sized party can often end up with 4-6 members.

More importantly there are a number of situations that you can really get some mileage out of the mass cure spells. Have you never defended an inn, keep, or castle against opponent were their were NPC’s around that could greatly benefit from the healing? How about fighting in a war against an opposing army? I’ve done both, more then once, and while the situations may not be common they aren’t all that rare either… at least they haven’t been for me. Remember the spell doesn’t have to only target party members. Oh, I can’t believe I almost forgot an example… How about when you are fighting undead? Heal the whole party and deal some damage to the enemy at the same time. And I don’t think I’ve ever seen a campaign were undead were not encountered.

Anyway I apologize if any of this sounds argumentative. It’s hard to tell on the Internet sometimes. I like playing with house rules and have played with healing spells myself. A little improvement is good but I found the long drawn out battles that result from over doing simply aren’t any fun and I’m hoping you can learn from my mistakes :)

Covent wrote:
1) Healing changes

I agree that cure spells tend to be lacking and need enhanced but would simplify your changes to them to just; all cure spells have the bonus healing due to the characters level doubled.

I’m not sure why you think mass cure spells are a trap you can try and say that they don’t heal as well but that’s not accurate. How much net healing you can gain is considerably higher. For example at 9th level a cleric has both critical and cure light wounds, mass. Cure critical would heal 4d8+18 for an average of 36 hit points, while the cure light wounds, mass spell would heal 1d8+18 for an average of 22 health per person. Heal just two characters and you net an average or 44 hit points worth of healing and, theoretically, you can heal up to 9 for an average or 198 hit points worth of healing. Now I’ll grant you that a situation like that will rarely happen but still healing 2 or 3 party members at once and from a distance without having to take attacks of opportunity etc is pretty nice, I certainly wouldn’t call it a trap.

As for heal, I believe most people will agree that it’s one of the most powerful healing spells in the game and probably over powered for its level. That said, I would personally just lower the healing to 7 hit points per caster level and leave the rest alone. I think that would be sufficient to bring it down to a more appropriate power level.

For a comparison consider heal and cure moderate wounds, mass both gained by a cleric at 11th level. Heal would allow a single target the cleric touches to be healed for 77 hit points and remove an array of different effects from them. Cure moderate wounds, mass wound heal 2d8+22 for an average of 31 health per person affected but could heal the entire party simultaneously granting a net healing from 31 to 124 depending on the number of party members effected. This healing could be done from 50 feet away without endangering the cleric and could heal for significantly more if there are more characters in the party or if NPC’s, animal companions, etc, around that need healing as well.

Covent wrote:
2) I require from my players a written background, of at least one paragraph.

Sounds good to me.

Covent wrote:
3) I have banned leadership and antagonize. (I hate these feats, I may be wrong.)

I see no problems with this… and you can’t be wrong, it’s your opinion and you have a right to it.

Covent wrote:
4) I have removed the faction requirements for "Master Performer and Grand Master Performer."

Not sure where these are from so I have no opinion.

Covent wrote:
5) I require all players that choose to play paladins to sit down with me and hammer out the details for their particular paladin’s code before play starts.

Sounds good. In my opinion paladins are always need a sit down with the GM to be sure you’re both on the same page as to how they should behave and what acceptable.

Covent wrote:
6) Magic item creation and use changes

Not sure about your reasoning here. You say quote realism as being one reason you did. That way you don’t have to mysteriously arrange for an enemy to just happen to drop a certain magic item… except what the chance a person is going to be walking around with unused imbues? Seems awfully unlikely to me unless they happen to be an enchanter. Honestly I’d consider a different approach.

Perhaps allow skilled artificers to swap permanent enchantments for a fee. That way if you find a flame sword you can have it added to your +3 axe and either loss a bonus to the axe and pay a small fee or add both together and add a significantly larger fee. Something along these lines would probably be more realistic then a bunch of enemies that got imbues but never actually got around to using them.

Covent wrote:
7) Players need to fill out the following questionnaire. Vague answers are ok, this is just to get the player involved with the character as a person rather than a collection of stats.

I would divide it into 2 parts, physical description where all of the “questions” must be answered, and the other half where I’d ask for something like answer any 5 of the following 10+ questions. That way theirs some wiggle room. I for one enjoy developing my characters but never do it all at once. I get ideas that I use for starting points and then flush them out more as I play. So a detailed, or large questionnaire, would bother me quite a bit since you wouldn’t have given me the time I need to “feel out” my character.

Covent wrote:
8) I give one free Hero point to anyone who fills out the questionnaire and then types a back story that is at least one page double spaced size 12 times new roman font.

I see no problems with that. Can I assume you still get this upon completion even if you don’t get everything filled out until several sessions in? As I mentioned above I doubt I’d be done on day 1 and would be irritated if I were penalized for taking a few game sessions to get a good feel for my character.

While your system my be forgiving there are a number of situations that can arise that can make retrieving a body within the specified time impossible, if it can be done at all. Since the consequence of this if permanent character death I would rather not play with those rules myself. A few examples include falling of a cliff, falling into a pit of lava, being completely disintegrated, teleported into a trap, or plane shifted to a hostile environment.

The main problem I see is that as characters get higher and higher level the chance for something like this happening to them continues to increase. If I played a character to, let’s say 15th level, and then got plane shifted to the plane of fire by a prismatic spray and died permanently as a result, I would not be happy. The longer you play a character the more you tend to get attached to them (in my experience anyway). Normally, high levels means you can usually recover a lost character but with these rules it just means a higher chance for permanent death.

Personally my preference would be to switch your minutes to rounds to add a sense of urgency in combat to hurry and heal a fallen comrade and then make the resurrection type spells more costly, possibly even requiring a successful save to be brought back to life with a DC the increases the longer you have been dead. That way high-level characters aren’t killed permanently due to a bad die roll in an unfortunate situation.

slacks wrote:
Another way to speed things up is to share NPC's AC with the players, this is one less piece of information that has to go back and forth between you and the players.

I do that as well, though I never give the information until after a player has committed to attacking them. My players sometimes ask questions like, "I'll attack the golem with my longsword, what's it's AC?" I find it's easier to let them know then to have to figure out which attacks hit and which don't by asking me each time.

Evil Lincoln wrote:
Revel wrote:
Group initiative - everyone rolls normally to start things off but I always do all of the enemies together and once they have gone it simply cycles back and forth between the party and the enemies with the party going as a group without regard for the order in which they rolled initiative. That way you simply go with whoever is ready and keep the game moving.

I was very excited to try this method, but in practice I don't think it worked out for me. The players ended up discussing who should act first, and it became harder for me to track who had acted vs. who had not.

Am I missing something that makes this technique work? Or is it just not for me?

I can see how it could be problematic if you and your group aren’t used to group initiative but I’ve found the solutions for those two particular problems, both are fairly simple and have worked well for me for many years.

First, inform your group that you’ll be using group initiative and that they are welcome to collaborate and strategize with one another… However, and this is very important, when you ask “Who’s ready?” you expect someone to step up and take their turn. If no one does you can and will skip the players turn and they can try again during the next round.

Then when it’s the parties turn give them a brief moment (how brief is entirely up to you) and then ask who’s going. If no one steps up to go simply say the following: “Well, if no one’s ready I’m going to go ahead and go again, anyone?” I don’t think I have ever needed to skip the players’ turn to get them moving and once a group gets used to it you only have to ask that question once in a while to get things moving. Usually, if you do, it’s because things are not going well and they’re uncertain how to salvage a bad situation. If your feeling generous, give them a little extra time to strategize otherwise repeat the statement mentioned above.

As for tracking who’s gone… don’t. If you know everyone’s gone great start the creatures turn. But if you aren’t 100% simply ask “Is that everyone?” If your group says yes, or if no one responds, go ahead and go. It isn’t your responsibility to ensure that they have gone it’s theirs and if they aren’t paying attention and haven’t gone they lose out.

To sum it up, you are giving the players the opportunity to work together and strategize but in return you expect them to be prompt and take responsibility for whether or not they have gone. I’ve been using this for many years and never had any real problems. Once in a while I have to give a warning that I’m going to go if someone doesn’t step up and start their turn but so far I’ve never had to actually had to actually skip the whole group. That said, I have on rare occasion skipped a player that was to busy talking or otherwise not paying attention when I asked if that was everyone was done. But they know that’s their responsibility and I’ve never had any arguments from my players about it, at most they look sheepish and that doesn’t generally happen again for quite some time.

Anyway, hopefully that helps, if not perhaps it’s not for you. Though if you haven’t tried the things I mentioned above I’d give it another try before deciding, expect it to take a session or two for everyone to get used to it, but probably no longer then that, good luck.

edit: added the quote I was replying to xP

DrkMagusX wrote:
Would they still try and alter animals around giving them different traits to enhance them?

I’d say it’d depend on their alignment. A good druid would be more prone to protect or relocate existing aberrations in an attempt to give them a chance to shine. An evil druid might have no problems experimenting and trying to help nature along, so to speak. A neutral druid could go either way but wouldn’t want to risk hurting the animals or plants he wanted to modify and would want to be sure he wasn’t doing more harm then good so it’d take him longer if he did at all. At least those are my views on it.

DrkMagusX wrote:
If in fact it was a Alien druid what might his wildshape be and animal companion options be.

Most likely those abilities would replicate natural creatures from the world/plane that he originates from. You’d have to have an idea what those would be first of course which would probably take a bit of work. To simplify you might try creating a template and say that for the most part similar creatures exist but have the template applied to them then fluff the appearance a bit and your good to go. If you try something like that don’t forget that the template shouldn't really make the creatures stronger just different. Otherwise the entire power would need to be rebalanced.

Aberrations don't have to have anything to do with dungeons. Here’s one way you could play it…

Druids that command aberrations view them as simply a step in the evolutionary chain that may or may not become the norm depending on how successful they are, how many others are born with the aberration, and blind luck.

Say a fish is born with gills that allow it to walk on land, albeit in a limited fashion. None of the other fish can, obviously this fish is an aberration to the norm. But its ability allows it to forage for food where other fish can’t and escape purely aquatic predators. It manages to not only survive but also thrive and has young that inherit the same ability. Years later it’s now a new species of fish.

An aberration oriented druid looks for creatures that are unique or have unique traits and tries to give them the chance to shine, grow, and thrive without being done in by some random misfortune thereby allowing nature to grow, adapt, and strengthen more rapidly.

Short version: They are about evolution.

Well done, I really like your guide and how you approached it. I’d like to do something like this for the core monk and all of their archetypes but it’d take forever and be a full sized book when finished xP Over all I think I agree with most everything you said though I have to say beastmass wasn’t exactly fair to the creatures.

Intelligent creatures don’t leave their treasure sitting in a pile in the corner waiting for and adventure to take it after they have been defeated. Try equipping them with some of their treasure and I bet one will be hurting by the end of the first day (if he survives at all) and never make it to the end of the second. Still, it did show off the Zen archer’s abilities nicely even if it wasn’t quite accurate in that regard.

I agree that the sensei looks like he could be fun to play. Unfortunately their seems to be a fair amount of ambiguity as to how exactly his advice ability works. For example, I'm still trying to figure out exactly what happens if a sensei uses battlemind link with his advice ability. I actually started a similar thread here to try and get a better feel for how he works but never got all of my questions answered as well as I'd have liked.

Group initiative - everyone rolls normally to start things off but I always do all of the enemies together and once they have gone it simply cycles back and forth between the party and the enemies with the party going as a group without regard for the order in which they rolled initiative. That way you simply go with whoever is ready and keep the game moving.

Laptops - I enjoy rolling dice but the dicebot's ability to roll and add a bunch of numbers from a macro is really nice at high levels. Over time I've gotten used to using it and if you have internet access you can look things up fast as well. Also, while I prefer to look things up in my books you can open and run a search of a pdf faster to easily look things up if you need to.

Group leveling - Have everyone level together after the game is over for the night, they can check each other and gab about the game and their plans for the next day without slowing down the game or being distracting. You can also do a similar thing during lunch or dinner if you know everyone should have the xp to level.

Relax - Don't worry or let yourself get wound up if things seem to be taking longer then you planned. No matter how much you plan and prepare there are never any guarantees and getting stressed will probably only slow things down more. As long as everyone having fun go with the flow and enjoy yourself.

Plan shortcuts if needed - if you really want a group to be able to finish an adventure before the mini con is over look at things ahead of time and think about what you can cut if you need to. For example drop a random encounter or make the creatures in a room easier so the group will blow through them and get on to the more important encounters so they can reach the end.

Be ready to add content - the reverse of the above is also possible if the group is using their not inconsiderable resources well or making unexpected choices and bypassing things you thought they'd do, essentially "skipping to the end". I find this to be pretty rare but I've seen it happen before so having something such as a couple wanderings in you pocket just in case can be a good idea.

Don't hide armor class, DC's, and other such checks - I don't tell a player a creatures armor class until they attack it but once they commit to an action I'll tell them what they need to succeed, it's easier and faster then having them ask repeatedly if an attack hit or not.


Hope everything goes well, it's been far to long since I've had the opportunity to do something like a mini con but they're usually fun.

One of the most common questions I use as GM is, "Are you sure?" I’d at least have given him this much when he said what he was going to tell muscles. Any time a player says that they want to do something I feel their character would probably not do because they’d know better I ask this. I also generally allow players to make an intelligence, wisdom, or skill check as I feel is appropriate for a hint as to what I perceive as being a problem (Providing this is the first time they made this mistake). Afterward, I usually let them squirm and scramble for a minute. Then, in the interest of keeping things moving, I tell them I need an answer or they’ll miss their turn.

The way I see it, people make mistakes. Whether they forgot or simply didn’t learn it well enough I don’t know so I typically give them the benefit of the doubt. Case and point, as wraithstrike pointed out above you yourself erred as to what the rule was. All of that said, I think your solution; using a grateful NPC to provide a raise dead and restoration for free is fair.

Some GM’s really dislike it when players ruin their carefully laid plans and go well beyond what I feel they should to prevent it from happening. For example, they may fudge saving throws, skill checks, etc. to ensure that their well made BBEG doesn’t die to fast and ensure things go "as planned".

It sounds to me like he decided to create a template just for the express purpose of being able to give himself a “legitimate” reason why these things won’t work without “cheating”. Personally if a GM ran a template like this in a game I played in I would probably talk to him about it after the game and in all likelihood bow out and go elsewhere if it was going to continue to be used.

If a GM wants to create a reasonable explanation why something doesn’t work that’s fine. In fact I find it can be a lot of fun. You start asking yourself questions like "Is there any way I can use this to my advantage?" But as a player, I strongly dislike GM’s simply stopping something just because it’s not what they wanted or expected to happen. Consequently, powers that amount to it doesn’t work because I said so just don’t fly with me.

And honestly I don't like it as a GM either, I actually enjoy it when my players surprise me, after running games for over 20 years I think I’d be bored of it by now if they didn’t. Naturally all of this is just my opinion, if you are enjoying the game, then keep playing, there’s certainly nothing wrong with that.

Possibly something like this:

1st – Selective channel
3rd – Extra channel
5th – Reach spell
7th – Heighten spell
9th – Channeled revival
11th – Echoing spell
13th – Spell perfection (heal)
15th – Preferred spell (heal)

And yes I know he's 12th but I was trying to plan ahead a little, at 13th level he can cast heal and echo it for another heal or memorize a reach heal in a 7th level slot for healing party members across the battlefield without going to them and then echoing it so he can do it again. At 15th level he can do the same kind of things spontaneously allowing him to free up those slots for other spells like buffs, attack, spells, etc. for times when the party just doesn't need the healing.

One thing you may have missed and is important to realize, is that wizards do not have to prepare all of their spells ahead of time. With 15 minutes of study they can “prepare” an unused spell slot with any spell in their spell book of that level or lower. Because of this they often leave a few slots open just for this purpose. Naturally how many spell slots are left open will be dependent how many total spell slots they has at their current level. While this isn’t helpful in the middle of combat it does allow them to adapt to a wide range of situations.

In fact this is one of the wizards main strength's, always being able to have the right spell for the job. As far as their standard spell selection goes its not to hard to put together a decent list of daily spells that they always like to have memorized for combat or frequently occurring situations. If you or one of you player's needs help figuring out what's good, several people on this forum have made guides for most of the different classes in pathfinder, links these guide have been mostly compiled into a thread named Guide to the Guides here is a link

Having many house rules myself I see nothing wrong with making house rules as you want to whatever you want. That said, if you've never played pathfinder before you might want to play a couple of times to get a feel for it before you change things. That way you'll have a better idea of how they work, if you actually want to change them, and how to change them if you do.


Oh and as to your original question, I myself have an optional spell point system that my players may use if they wish. I've always liked being able to cast spells more freely then the current system allows for. There are several alternate ways you can handle spells if you want more casting freedom but you'll need to carefully consider how it'll affect all of the different spell casting classes.

Thanks, that answers 1 of the questions. Any more ideas about the others?

Personally my opinions are as follows.

1) Yes, bard feats like lingering performance or extra performance should be able to be taken since it is supposed to be identical to the bard's ability. In my mind if it doesn't work they can't be considered identical.

2) No idea what feat to remove but I'm pretty sure either the one at 1th or 14th level should be removed. Until told otherwise I'll probably take away the level 10 one but that's just arbitary, I have no idea which it should be.

3) Yes, answered and the reason is linked above (thanks again)

4) Yes, I see no reason why it shouldn't so I'll probably treat it this way unless someone can give me a reasonable reason why this should not be the case.

5) Yes I believe he can dimension door the party, but I'm not sure if he could change where appear with regards to each other. I'd probably rule against it unless I am told otherwise or given an example of a time when this is allowed so I at least have a precedent.

6) I think he can but really don't know how to rule on who decides who is battlemind liked to who.

7) I tend to agree that deuxhero's interpretation is the most likely I can think of so far, though I don't really like it as it stands. It may not be RAW or RAI but for my home game I'll probably rule that any saves that would be made against a poison or disease during the time a character has immunity are automatically treated as having succeeded.

I kind of like your 2nd idea but would suggest modifying it as follows:

Any metamagic a spell caster knows can be spontaneously applied to any spell upon casting. Doing so requires the spell caster to make a Spellcraft check equal to 15 + twice the spells modified level. If this check fails the spell is lost and has no effect. A Spells modified level cannot be higher then the highest level spell of that type that they can cast.

This allows a spell caster to try and modify a spell of the fly if they need to but also lets them to memorize them with the metamagic feat added to it to prevent any chance of spell failure.

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Adding a question:

7) If a sensei uses mystic wisdom to grant an ally immunity to disease or poison via purity of body or diamond body what happens to any disease or poison currently affecting them? Is is neutralized? I like the idea that they could use this ability to cure others but I'm not sure if that's how it's supposed to work.

Also there have been so few responses if you aren't chiming in because you aren't sure of the answers please click faq. I'd really like to have a solid understanding of how the sensei should work.

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