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Xakihn

Revan's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 874 posts. No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists.


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So, my players just had their first encounter with the Kasatha skeletons. Those four claw attacks did a number on them, especially when they came from one possessed by Hetuath, thus gaining the Advanced template. Believing the skeletons to be undead Androffans, they then took the remains of one of the Kasatha back to town with them -- disassembling the bones to carry back in their packs, and then hiding the bones under loose floorboards in the warpriest's basement. Here's hoping they manage to turn the habitat back on quickly when they go back in--otherwise, they're going to find a skeleton on a rampage next time they come back to town!


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Duiker wrote:

It says in the product discussion for the last book that you should be starting at level 15 and probably finishing at level 17:

Link here

This is more or less the default assumption of APs, probably because it means that casters will have access to their highest level of spells in the final battle.

The only exceptions so far: Council of Thieves and Jade Regent both go to 15th level, while Wrath of the Righteous stands as the only AP to go all the way to 20th level (as well as providing a full progression of mythic tiers).


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Yakman wrote:

well... it's not IRON GODS any more. but it is better than having a gold dragon running everything. unless... UNITY IS A ROBOT GOLD DRAGON.

go for it.

Oooh...instead of an Overlord Robot, Unity could have installed so much cybernetics into Mengkare to enhance and control him, that it is able to form an aggregate with him! Cyborg Gold Dragon with a Mythic AI in its head granting it scads of mental enhancements might possibly be the only thing *more* epic than fighting a horde of tyrannical digital angels!


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I've had bouncing around in my head for a while the idea of reordering what various casters use as their casting stat, to improve thematics. To wit:

Charisma based magic is based on dealing with another being who grants you power. Summoners and Paladins still use it, but now Clerics and Witches are Charisma based as well. Bards also keep Charisma--their magic is based on performance and deception--of others, or the universe itself.

Wisdom is still keyed to Druids, as their nature magic isn't tied to any kind of a pact, so much as a deep understanding of the natural world. It is now also the key start of Sorcerers and Oracles, whose magic is inherent to them and cast on instinct.

Wizards and Magi maintain Int-based casting, representing focused formal study in magical theory.

Not something I've ever tried to implement, just something knocking about in my head. Thoughts?


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Fortified positions containing hordes of enemies are best assaulted not with an army laying siege, but by four to six apparently random individuals.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Lord Fyre wrote:
Yakman wrote:

not to nitpick, but with the elves and their little portals to Castrovel, there was a nice out there to short cut their long history - they are all on another planet, and only recently arrived (comparatively) in numbers.

As for elf PCs, they can be hanging out in a forest or jungle-adventure planet...

That still doesn't resolve some other the other long lived races, such as Dragons, Dwarves, or Gnomes.

In fact, in 3.5 Golarion, Gnomes would have been an even bigger concern than Elves; in the original Campaign Setting book, Gnomes were actually immortal barring being killed or succumbing to the Bleaching.


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Kasatha and Mystery:
There are three major encounters with Kasatha built into the Iron Gods campaign--first, an encounter with a band of undead Kasatha in a crashed habitat dome in the first adventure, which draws a significant amount of eerieness from the fact that the PCs have no idea what these things are, as Kasatha are not even from the same solar system as Golarion. As written, PCs might possibly think that the strange four-armed creatures *were* the Androffans. That eeriness and obfuscation is lost if a Kasatha is a member of the party. The second is with a potential ally, whose character write-up assumes that she is one of the very few Kasatha on board Divinity who survived--to the point that she is unwilling to countenance the death of the Kasatha you encounter within Silver Mount, despite that one being a chainsaw-wielding sadistic psychopath in service to Unity. Moreover, it's a plot point that those Kasatha were very familiar with the workings of Divinity and technology in general, and it is inferred from their write-up that any Kasatha alive on Golarion today survived the crash in stasis pods. None of these are insurmountable obstacles, but there a myriad of minor tonal shifts a DM has to be aware of if allowing a Kasatha PC.


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Sissyl wrote:
Revan wrote:
What part of 'Price of item-Price of standard enhancements on item=Price of non-standard enhancements' is inconsistent? You can argue whether the non-standard enhancements *should* be treated as plus-equivalent, but absent any proof that they *are*, that formula will never fail to provide an answer for the cost, and breaks no written rules.

So, since there is no rule to say you can't, you can? That really isn't how it works. You are trying to make a rule that says "specific items are upgraded through this formula", but that is not supported anywhere.

In other news, it just struck me that if you want to upgrade a mithral shirt, you can, so long as it's a chain shirt made of mithral and not a mithral shirt (the specific item). Both of these have the same stats, and nothing says you can't upgrade a normal chain shirt that happens to be made from mithral.

It says I can do so:

"Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.

The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. "

The general rule is that you *can* upgrade magical items. There is no stated exception for 'specific' magic items.

As well, there's this previously quoted line from Inner Sea Gods:

"The following specific armors and shields are popular among mortal devotees of the deities of the Inner Sea region, as designated in the item entries. This section focuses on relatively inexpensive magic armors and shields that low-level characters can afford. For higherlevel
characters, remember that these armors can be upgraded like any other magic item by adding “plus-equivalent” or “gp value” abilities, then paying the difference between the original item’s price and the price of the item when upgraded with the additional special abilities.

Likewise, variants of these armors may exist using different types of armor, such as Deadeye leather, which is made from leather armor instead of studded leather."

So the specific rule is that you *can* upgrade 'specific' magic items--or at least 'specific' armor and shields, which are really the only items to which the 'specific' terminology applies.


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Aelryinth wrote:
Revan wrote:

The rules of PFS are not the RAW in any shape or form. It has all manner of housw rules designed to facilitate characters drifting in and out of different groups. An inability to upgrade specific items is moot when house rules prevent you from creating at all for one.

No statement in the RAW forbids upgrading named items. Indeed, even your assumptive should allow adding flat cost abilities such as Glamered. The reading of the RAW that assumes the non-standard enhancements are flat-go adds nothing to the text. It simply applies the rules in the only way they can be consistently applied. Seems to me, if there's a way to interpret the rules so that they are consistently applied, versus a way to do so that creates inconsistencies that prevent the rule from being applied, that the former had the stronger claim.

You can't consistently apply the rules, however, especially when you get into things that have buy-offs or class restrictions.

hence, you can't upgrade, as you don't KNOW the formula. You're only guessing. It's a houserule. PFS does it because of crafting abuse, and wildly different interpretations of exactly what you are talking about.

As the formula have not been defined, no upgrading. If it was as simple and direct as you say, I doubt PFS would have any problems with just increasing the base enchantment on anything.

==Aelryinth

What part of 'Price of item-Price of standard enhancements on item=Price of non-standard enhancements' is inconsistent? You can argue whether the non-standard enhancements *should* be treated as plus-equivalent, but absent any proof that they *are*, that formula will never fail to provide an answer for the cost, and breaks no written rules.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

The rules of PFS are not the RAW in any shape or form. It has all manner of housw rules designed to facilitate characters drifting in and out of different groups. An inability to upgrade specific items is moot when house rules prevent you from creating at all for one.

No statement in the RAW forbids upgrading named items. Indeed, even your assumptive should allow adding flat cost abilities such as Glamered. The reading of the RAW that assumes the non-standard enhancements are flat-go adds nothing to the text. It simply applies the rules in the only way they can be consistently applied. Seems to me, if there's a way to interpret the rules so that they are consistently applied, versus a way to do so that creates inconsistencies that prevent the rule from being applied, that the former had the stronger claim.


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Aelryinth wrote:

Price breakdowns via enhancements don't work like that.

Celestial Mail might be priced as +3 Enhancement, with Celestial Costing a +1, with the flight add on...or it might all be lump sum.

There will be a SUBSTANTIAL difference in pricing if you're supposed to treat it as an enhancement bonus, because everything added on goes up in cost more quickly, as opposed to just taking on 12k. If Celestial is +1, it's also +1 less enhancement you can add to the armor on the way to +10.

Likewise, the Sun Sword. It's priced exactly at the price of a +5 Weapon. Maybe the sunburst is free for the Good aligned thing. Thus, any additions of enhancements starts at +6, i.e. takes the price to 72000 gp. A +5 Sun Sword would be a +8 Equiv weapon and 128k gp.

Or maybe all the Sun Sword add-ons are a straight add-ons, 'because they aren't on the enhancement lists yet'. So, a Sun Sword is an 8k weapon with +42k of add-ons. A +5 Sun sword would thus be only 92k, with +5 of enhancements still to be added. This interpretation of the Sun Sword results in a much more powerful weapon.

In short, on items where the effects are not broken down, you don't KNOW. And that's why any changing of them is a house rule.

I know what the price of +3 Full Plate is. I know the difference between that price and the price of Celestial Plate. If "+5 Max Dex, reduce Armor Check Penalty by 3, reduce Armor Check Penalty by 15%, and Fly 1/day at CL 8" is not a plus-equivalent ability, then that is all I need to know to improve the armor. I can't seem to find that anywhere on the list of plus-equivalent abilities.

The rules allow upgrading a magic item by paying the difference between its current cost and what it would cost with the upgrade applied. There is a straightforward way to apply this rule to 'named items'. Seems to me that saying it's impossible is the house rule.


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I don't *need* to break it down. I'm not trying to add discrete parts of a non-standard enhancement to something else, while leaving others. That is impossible. Therefore, all the abilities have to come as a single enhancement--and since their pricing *never* conforms to the structure of plus-equivalents, they must be a flat-GP cost.

We now what the standard enhancements cost. From that we can determine what the non-standard enhancements collectively cost. It's equally an assumption to say any of those non-standard enhancements are plus-equivalents as to say they are a flat price but indivisible. If you assume the former, you are unable to enhance these weapons--but only because a master of magic is unable to determine just *how much* magic is in the magical item he may have created. Schrodinger's Magic Sword? These aren't ancient artifacts that mankind has lost the knowledge of. Anyone with the proper feats can make one--and yet they're physically incapable of making a better one? On the other hand, if you assume the latter, it is trivially easy to determine the price of the standard plus-equivalents, and from that the price of the other abilities.

I know the assumption Occam's Razor tells me to make.

(And incidentally, even if we accept your premise, it would still be factually false to say you can't improve an item with non-standard abilities--'Hidden plus-equivalents might alter the price' doesn't apply to, e.g., Glamered or any other flat-gp enhancement)


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We know they aren't plus-equivalent abilities, because they are not on the list of plus-equivalent abilities, and do not conform to the price structure of plus-equivalent ability. If they did, Celestial Plate could not cost 25,000 gp, since that is the *base* price of +5 Armor. If the Celestial bonuses were equivalent to a +2 bonus, it would cost 26,650; if it was equivalent to any other plus-bonus, it would cost more or less than 25,000.


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Aelryinth wrote:

Ashiel, when the fellow was talking about modifying magic items, he specially said 'named items', not 'general magic items'.

i.e. there's no true formula down for Celestial Plate, so you can't modify it to +5. Likewise, adding powers to some of the other named items with special powers that don't fall into standard enhancements and the like.

Which doesn't excuse the fact that you can mithral celestial armor, unless you take the 'silver and gold' as being of a specific metal and thereby being essential to the crafting.

But technically, +5 Celestial armor is not possible by the rules.

===
What's really funny about Legacy of Fire is that you end up working with another wishcaster, and you can counter/cancel that efreet's wishes towards completing his goal faster then he can get them made, since he has to use some as bribes and you don't have to do so.

==Aelryinth

Why would we need a formula for the cost of Celestial Plate to modify it? Mind, it's easy enough to derive the cost of the 'Celestial' enchantment, but we'd only need that if we wanted to apply it to a different type of armor. For upgrading it to +5? Celestial Plate Armor is +3 Full Plate (plus other bonuses). Ignoring the other bonuses, since they're already paid for, +3 Full Plate costs 5325 to make. +5 Full Plate costs 13325 to make. Thus, it costs 8,000 GP to make a +3 Celestial Plate into +5 Celestial Plate, or 16,000 if you're paying an NPC to do the enchanting for you. Buying +5 Celestial Plate outright would cost 41,000 gp--16,000, plus the 25,000 base price for regular Celestial Plate.


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It *is* pretty post-apocalyptic. The capital city's primary import is *food and water* because it's all but impossible to grow crops anywhere but the Numerian Plains. The Felldales, where most of the debris hit, are specifically noted as being basically a wasteland. The thing about the Rain of Stars happening when it did, is that Golarion was only just out of the Age of Darkness. The world was putting itself back together after one apocalypse, and a smaller-scale one promptly hit Numeria.

The robots and technology are still working because of SCIENCE--and even then, a considerable amount of the technology has the Timeworn quality to represent exactly that question--likely to glitch unpredictably, and to completely die when it runs out of power, no recharging possible


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The Technic League hasn't been going strong for thousands of years, though. The alien debris has been there for 5000 years, but the Technic League is recent enough that they did not exist in Casandalee's time. Remember, for most of Numeria's history, the Kellids tried to bury or destroy anything alien.


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And by 'dig into rulings' you mean 'make a common sense assumption', and by 'jump through hoops', you mean 'make a valid choice for an ability, and assume it isn't non-functional.' You have to use Magus level as Swashbuckler level to determine what deeds you can take; it's not remotely a huge leap to assume that it works that way for using the deeds.


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Question regarding everyone's favorite were-deinonychus: He's stated to be a former Technic League Captain, who are arcane casters--and typically technomages--by definition. Yet he is started as a pure ranger. Is this an oversight as to the nature of League leadership, or is it intended that he used retaining rules after going native?


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I'm about to begin running Iron Gods, with the first session two days from now. To that end, I'm soliciting ideas on wags of foreshadowing Unity's end goal and bringing more to the forefront the fact that Ozmyn Zaidow is a puppet of Unity, neither of which are made very explicit in the adventure itself, as opposed to DM knowledge.

I recall seeing someone post an idea about the Technic League constructing broadcast towers to carry Unity's signal, for example. Perhaps Zaidow might be conducting experiments in cybernetic brainwashing, and have some programmed fanatics as guards. Probably Zaidow and perhaps a handful of other League Captains should have holy symbols of Unity.

What are your suggestions?


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So my understanding is that tech firearms generally expend a charge for each shot made--so the more iteratives you have, the faster you need to put a new battery in your laser pistol. This leads me to a question about the Techslinger archetype's Covet Charge Deed:

"At 1st level, a techslinger can spend 1 grit point to use 1 charge fewer than normal when firing a technological weapon (minimum 0), as long as the weapon has enough charges remaining to be fired at least once. This deed replaces deadeye."

I'm uncertain as to whether the wording allows a Techslinger to spend that grit on every one of his iteratives if he likes--thus allowing an 11th level Techslinger to never lose charges on a tech firearm by way of the Signature Deed feat--or if the wording is intended to make one point of grit apply to an entire attack sequence, such that a Techslinger with Signature Deed (Covet Charge) would always expend charges equal to n-1, where n is 'number of attacks made'.

I would *like* to believe the former, but I worry it's too good to be true. On the other hand, the latter seems a bit underwhelming.


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If you've watched Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood, or read the manga to the end, you could probably get some inspiration from Father begging Truth to tell him what he did wrong after he is finally defeated.


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I'll gladly post them, but keep in mind, I use a few house rules that mean you'll probably have to do some reverse engineering to use them yourself. Firstly, most classes besides the Witch and Wizard get a +2 bump to skill points, because I thin that 2 skill points is too low for anyone but the people who are guaranteed to have a sky-high intelligence. Secondly, my write-ups assume PCs with higher point-buys than in the book, and ability scores are boosted in turn. Most importantly many feats have been condensed from trees to scale instead, or had prerequisites altered or dropped. For example, the combat maneuver feats automatically upgrade from Improved to Greater when you meet the prerequisites, and no longer require Combat Expertise, and Outflank no longer has prerequisites--I always forget that it requires 4 BAB in any event, and it seems like the single most basic teamwork feat to me. A few feats have had their whole effects changed, most notable Weapon Finesse--now simply 'Finesse', it combines Agile Maneuvers with the ability to add your Intelligence modifier as precision damage with Finesse weapons--no feat is needed to use Dex for attack rolls with a Rapier.

Spoiler:

Garmen Ulreth
Male Human Cavalier (Daring Champion) 4
NE Medium Humanoid (Human)
Initiative +5; Senses Perception +6
Defense
AC 19 (+4 Armor, +3 Dex, +1 Shield, +1 Dodge)
Touch 14, Flat-Footed 15
HP 28 (4d10+8)
Fort +5 Reflex +4 Will +2
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Mwk Rapier +9 (1d6+3/18-20 +1)
Ranged Light Crossbow +7 (1d8/19-20)
Special Challenge 2/day, Precise Strike +4, Tactician 1/day
Statistics
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 8 Cha 16
BAB +4 CMB +4 CMD 17
Feats Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Fencing Grace, Outflank, Iron Will
Skills Acrobatics +10, Bluff +10, Diplomacy +10, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (Local) +5, Perception +6, Sense Motive +6
Languages Common, Hallit, Orc
SQ Challenge 2/day (+4 damage, +1 bonus to hit for allies), Panache (3 points), Deeds (Dodging Panache, Opportune Parry and Riposte, Precise Strike, Swashbuckler Initiative), Order of the Dragon, Aid Allies
Gear Potion of Invisibility x2, +1 Studded Leather, Buckler, Light Crossbow with 10 bolts, Mwk Rapier, 89 gp

Ropefist Thugs
Human Brawler (Snakebite Striker) 1
CN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Initiative +2; Senses Perception +3
Defense
AC 15 (+3 Armor +2 Dex)
Touch 12, Flat-footed 13
HP 14 (1d10+4)
Fort +5 Reflex +4 Will -1
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +4 (1d6+3)
Ranged Sling +3 (1d4+3)
Special Sneak Attack +1d6
Statistics
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 10
BAB +1 CMB +4 (+6 Trip) CMD 16 (18 Trip)
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Trip
Skills Acrobatics +6, Bluff +4, Climb +7, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (Local) +5, Perception +3, Sense Motive +3, Stealth +6
Languages Common, Hallit, Orc
Gear Potion of CLW, Mwk Studded Leather, Sling with 10 bullets, sunrod, 3d6 gp


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I've done a bunch of reworks up through Lords of Rust so far. Some of that is necessitated by my own house rules, which condense most feat trees, boost skill points, and alter how some feats work, and some of it is my own peccadilloes, like rarely having monsters without class levels. Relatively mindless monsters, sure, and constructs and outsiders, even intelligent ones, I can see having their sills and role fully subsumed into their nature--but in the same way that there's no such thing as a classless human or orc in D&D, if the party encounters an Ogre, it will at least have a level of commoner.

Given that, and the general high-powered nature of the games I run, the specific write-ups may not be of as much interest, but some of the concepts in Fires of Creation:

Spoiler:

* Hetuath became a Two-Weapon Warrior for obvious reasons
* To emphasize Sanvil Trett's lazy, self-centered nature and previous addiction to Numerian fluids, I made him an Eldritch Scion Magus with the Abberant Bloodline--an intuitive, rather than studied grasp of magic, and somewhat mutated by his experimentation with Numerian Fluids. Since he needs to spend pool points to power his bloodline abilities now, I switched his Arcana to Close Range, expanding the spells he can use Spellstrike with.
* I gave Khonnir Baine's level of Rogue the Numerian Scavenger archetype. If Val becomes a cohort or it otherwise becomes relevant for her to have PC class levels instead of Expert levels, Numerian Scavenger seems especially apt for her as well
* Not only did I make the Ropefists into Snakebite Striker Brawlers, but I made Garmen Ulreth into a Daring Champion Cavalier of the Order of the Dragon--exceedingly good at directing his thugs and making them more dangerous, and capable of inflicting truly nasty wounds with his rapier.

I made signficantly more alterations in Lords of Rust, but that's another thread, isn't it?


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I'm about to start running Iron Gods, and one of my players is probably going to be playing an Aegis, refluffed as having a piece of alien tech bonded to them which generates nanites to construct power armor on the fly.

Now, just to come up with what the acronym AEGIS stands for. Androffa Engineering Guardian Integrated System?


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Skeld wrote:
DM_Kumo Gekkou wrote:
Dylos wrote:
Just downloaded my copy and oh my God that bowstring. I may have to build an archer skald now.
What bowstring?

** spoiler omitted **

-Skeld

Spoiler:
To be specific, you can maintain Bardic Performance without expending a round whenever you shoot an arrow. COmbined with retraining Lingering Performance into Harmonic Spell, my Archaeologist archer need almost never expend more than one round of performance a combat.

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The people of Brevoy are primarily Taldan, I believe.


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I see no good reason whatsoever not to just make returning support iteratives. You're paying for a weapon with a minimum effective enhancement bonus of +2 so you can do what an archer can do just by picking up a bow.


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Alternately: Pay a buck and use these crafting rules. http://paizo.com/products/btpy8ffg?Making-Craft-Work


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Has anyone ever figured out a good reason why Returning weapons *shouldn't* just return instantly to your hand and allow a full attack? Or, if you insist on making throwing weapons require some investment to bring them up to par with conventional ranged weapons, work like the Blinkback Belt? I mean, that still leaves a gap in effectiveness between when the rest of the party starts getting magical weapons, and when you can afford to get a knife enchanted to +1 Returning, but that would make Throwing Weapons viable without taking up your precious belt slot.


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I believe the adventure intends #2 to be addressed by the fact that entering or leaving the dungeon becomes difficult if Water Breathing active, forcing the party to retreat before the duration expires.


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Quite a few fun alterations can be made to the Curse of the Crimson Thrones NPCs. Some of my thoughts:

Alterations to encounters in the Fishery depend in part on whether you want to up the challenge. There's a certain flavor in Yargin Balko and Lamm to be largely pushovers. But if you wanted to give Yargin to have some actual alchemical talent, you could make him a 1st level Alchemist. And Gaedren could prove a lot more dangerous if you swap his Rogue levels for the Rogue-ish Urban Ranger, with Favored Enemy (Human) and a free Focused Shot feat--with Gobblegut as an Animal Companion, at that. I also like giving Giggles the Enforcer feat.

The bouncers on Eel's End might be well-represented as Brawlers, gaining Maneuver feats as necessary to deal with troublemakers. I've also considered making Devargo an Investigator (Mastermind), with alchemical prowess to fit his druglord role, and some spider-themed tricks like Vomit Swarm.

For the Grey Maidens, I like to make them Samurai (but with proficiency in the Bastard Sword rather than the Katana), to better represent their implacability, and because they will rarely be encountered in the mounted context that the more obvious Cavalier conversion suggests. In any event, they should be of the Order of the Lion.

Queen's Physicians are commonly converted into Alchemists--perhaps filing the serial numbers off the Ratfolk Plague Bringer archetype. Dr. Davaulus himself would make a good Investigator.

I'd leave Andaisin as a full cleric. With her level and the Death Domain, she can Channel to heal herself and harm the party at the same time. If anything, she's probably weaker as a Daughter of Urgathoa, especially if there's a Paladin in the party.

Red Mantis Assassins: Slayer (Deliverer) or Inquisitor (Sanctified Slayer) are very apt base classes for the servants of Achaekak, and of course, they should have at least 3 levels of heir associated Prestige Class to get the signature Prayer Attack and Red Shroud abilities.

Laori Vaus I would suggest making an Inquisitor or Warpriest, in contrast to keeping Shadowcount Sial as a full Cleric. (Would that the Ecclesitheurge archetype was any good whatsoever; I'd love to have Sial eschew armor.)

Vencarlo Orsini is, of course, a Swashbuckler, as is Trifaccia in the final book.

When I ran Curse, I recognized that the Paladin in the party would be immune to just about anything a bardic Ileosa could throw at him, so he amped her up to a Draconic Bloodline Sorceress--which opened up the very appropriate Overwhelming Presence spell to her to cow the rest of the party while throwing around powerful Evocations and putting the Paladin in Forcecages and Mazes.


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The Crusader wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The Crusader wrote:


I would say the sign of healthy equanimity in the game would be the existence of one mysoginist that didn't threaten every female gamer everywhere. Lolth, in 3.5 Forgotten Realms certainly didn't make me shy away from the Drow.
I'm not sure where the equivalence is. Lolth is SUPPOSED to be evil, and most people back in the day who wished to play drow, weren't looking to be nice guys.

A female deity that actively and unashamedly despises males, and commands their oppression, measured against a male deity that has some more old-world, traditional views on family, community, and gender roles. You're right. There's not much of an equivalence.

The point was more that the viewpoint of a deity in a fantasy game shouldn't put you off of playing. And since I don't know many guys that refused to play Drow because of Lolth, it's a little silly to me that the original version of Erastil can't even be in the same sandbox as other options that you can pick from. Other options, by the way, that include three major female deities...

Saying that women should be 'married off' to 'defer to and support their husbands' because them being 'independent minded' is 'disruptive'? That is commanding oppression. Milder oppression than Lolth's, to be sure, and not quite a Men's Rights Activist either, but it is still misogynistic. Now, I'm all for Erastil being a crotchety, not-altogether friendly Lawful Good god, but left completely as written, Erastil is basically telling players that it is perfectly all right for someone to think that women belong pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen. I'm fine with priests of Erastil (probably Lawful Neutral ones, or even Lawful Evil non-clerics) who interpret doctrine in a misogynistic way. But by saying that Erastil himself is explicitly *not* misogynist--that he believes in taking every practical step to protect the family unit and the community, without stating that men should inherently be in charge, Erastil is no less curmodgenly or traditional, but he's earned the 'G' in his alignment line. (To paraphrase from Heinlein, my Erastil believes no woman should *have* to fight, but certainly believes they should all be *capable* of it, because what should be isn't always what is.)

As to Torag, scatter may not mean genocide, but it certainly suggests it, or at least the Trail of Tears. And it very definitely tells Paladins that it is not just OK, but a righteous duty to actively go after non-combatants for crimes they did not commit and may not have had any say in. I imagine even Ragathiel, God of Righteously Murdering Evil in the Face would be put off by turning on the Big Bad's niece after dealing with the man himself, unless the niece was actively involved in evildoings herself. Torag, apparently, thinks 'If she didn't want to get killed (or 'get exiled from her home and separated from her family' if we're going to argue the semantics of 'scatter'), she should have known better than to be born related to this guy.'


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Ha! Fair enough, and I'm caught in my hyperbole. More to the point, I feel like all the high level NPCs who have been specifically called out in this thread so far are the ones who absolutely have the most justification for being high-level.


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Toff Ornelos is the headmaster of a wizard college--one of the more respected magical institutions in the world,as a matter of fact, and an especially ruthless one at that. Speaking for myself, it would break my immersion if he *didn't* have access to 9th level spells.


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It is not completely impossible for a level 4 creature to kill a level 17 one, but it is so improbable as makes no odds. About the best chance is for a Slumber Hex or the Repose Blessing/Domain to enable a coup de grace, but that is a pretty wild chance. At 17th level, you are virtually immune to anything a 4th level character can throw a you, and virtually guaranteed to kill them the first time you attack them.

Again, being excellent at combat is a *major part of the Hurricane King's position*--and the added levels come, inherently, with boosts to everything else that would make him a competent ruler in the first place. Nor would traps and minions make him any more challenging, if he were a 10th level character against a party of 17ths. The traps and minions might be challenging; he would blow over in a stiff breeze. Now, that's not *always* the wrong choice, but certainly makes no sense for the man who's job description is 'most fearsome pirate in the world.' Incidentally, he should still have traps and minions and things, because that's more exciting, and because the CR system is imperfect and doesn't account for action economy very well.

Being from a backstabbing noble family doesn't account for *arcane* power per se, but it does suggest at least some degree of personal prowess to have survived and thrived. Combine that with said family also being noted for their deals with devils--indeed, being the leaders of a semi-theocracy thereof--and it's far from nonsensical. Certainly, it would be coherent for Abrogail to be an aristocratic dilettante, a puppet ruler propped up by an infernal bargain. But it is nothing to Asmodeus to grant her power in her mortal timeframe in exchange for her immortal soul. And it is much to his benefit to let the people of Cheliax, his foothold in the war for the souls of Golarion, dream themselves the masters in their little arrangements, and give it power enough to defend itself from mortal interference.

Also, note on the Hurricane King and the leader of the Red Mantis--both are the highest ranking members of organizations which have associated Prestige Classes--Shackles Pirate and Red Mantis Assassin, respectively. Thematically, they should have the full progression in those prestige classes, (as both are, in fact, noted to have), meaning they can't be anything less than 15th level.


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If Divine Grace is overpowered for a Swashbuckler to have, it's vastly overpowered for a Paladin to have, given they have *two* good saves to start with, and in the most important categories to cover, no less. Swashbucklers don't even get Evasion to go with their Reflex save until 11th level, and that's dependent on not running out of panache.


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Having recently finished my initial readthrough of the ACG, I see no reason whatsoever that Swashbucklers should be consigned to a vastly worse version of Divine Grace. I'm making an executive decision that in any game I run, Charmed Life and Divine Grace will simply be two names for the same ability. This does, however, leave gaps in a Swashbuckler's level progression a 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. Does anyone have suggestions for what could fill those newly dead levels?


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What Knowledge skill is it to know what color socks someone chose to wear? And what's the DC? Your basic bard can make any Knowledge check untrained, after all, so the only difference Pageant of the Peacock would make in *that* regard would be a matter of degree, not capability.

Remember, Bardic Performances are magical abilities--all the ones on the standard bard list are supernatural or spell-like. So yes, the Bard with Pageant of the Peacock may be a quack--but by weaving a bit of magic, he can imbue himself with an ability to not only brazen through, but get actual results.


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Has anyone put all the exploration maps from the various books together as one large map? I'm just going to be starting my players into Varnhold Vanishing soon, so I need to figure out where that map goes in relation to the Greenbelt.


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Precisely so.


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Jamie started the show as a fallen paladin, but not an Antipaladin. Neutral Evil, I think. Chaotic Evil might also be appropriate, as his formative experiences (i.e. slaying the Mad King and getting nothing but grief for it) have soured him on the concept of Law and Good considerably, but he's not a particularly active or malicious evil. In the main, he reacts, usually very violently, to perceived threats to the few things he cares about. Disregarding the scene in the sept that never happened, he's been clawing his way back up the alignment ladder slowly but surely since traveling with Brienne. He hasn't yet gotten north of Neutral, but he's closing in on it.

Arya was Chaotic Good at the outset, but has rapidly descended to Chaotic Neutral, and could well verge into Evil territory soon--the addition of Beric Dondarion and Thoros of Myr to her list shows that murder is becoming her idea of a default response to any given wrong. If she hooks up with the Faceless Assassins, she'll probably settle into a Lawful Evil alignment as they would presumably provide rules and structure to her (admittedly understandable) homicidal urges; otherwise, driven purely by vengeance, she could well become Chaotic Evil.


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Simon Legrande wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
I know a good deal of libertarians myself, so let me ask you this question: Do you find it acceptable to force others to accept your beliefs?

Of course not. But if they're wrong, I certainly attempt to point that out, and convince them of that with logic and discussion. As is occurring here...

Simon Legrande wrote:
Every post like this simply boils down to "I'm more oppressed than you!"
Actually, my point was that I'm not more oppressed than you, I'm about equally oppressed...and it's not a lot, and shouldn't be compared to people who really are pretty oppressed.
If they're wrong... That's awesome right there. Please tell me that you aren't insinuating that someone's personal opinion can be wrong.

Of course it can be. There are people whose 'personal opinion' is that the Earth is flat and 6000 years old, and that dinosaurs and humans coexisted, or that the moon landing was faked, or that virtually every authority figure in the world is secretly a shape-shifting reptilian alien.


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S'mon wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Sure, why not? You don't need any more strict discipline to keep from raping your crewmates than to keep from murdering them or stealing from them.

Whether that's true or not (and I don't envy the cabin boy on pre-modern sailing vessels) replace "raping" with "attempting to have sex with" and maybe you can see the problem. Or not, *sigh*.

I think it can be worked around. Charismatic leadership, harsh discipline, religious taboo are just three possibilities I've thought of, trying to work out how to run S&S. It's the attitude that there is nothing to work around, nothing that needs thinking about or justifying, that is problematic.

If by 'attempting to have sex with' you mean 'consensually', then, no, I don't see the problem. If you don't mean consensually, than you haven't actually changed the meaning of what you said. So I'm not sure what your point is there.

Nor do I see why any explanation is needed beyond "they're on the same side", or "The female pirates are every bit as badass as the men", or "Why piss off someone who carries weapons and knows where I sleep, when I can target our raiding victims who I won't be around after the fact?"


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Story Archer wrote:

Let's define 'too common'.

LGBT represents approximately 3.8% of the population. I think its safe to say that among gamers that number is probably a little higher.

In the last two AP's, the last seven books thus far, we've had three LGBT couples front and center, meaning that they and their relationships were important enough to warrant detailed descriptions among the few NPC full page spreads in the back. 3 in 7 books, compared to how many hetero couples getting the same treatment in the same time frame? Any?

See, here's the problem with interpreting the statistics that way--the nature of the narrative is such that a character is only gay when specifically indicated--i.e., when their relationship and sexuality is front and center. Any character whose relationships and sexuality is *not* front and center is presumed straight by default.

It's the same reason it's disingenuous to ask why 'whitewashing' casting practices are problematic, but it's OK for black actors to play 'white' roles. It's because there's almost no such thing as a 'white' or 'heterosexual' or 'male' or 'cisgendered' role. Those traits are so encoded into our minds as the 'default' that those are almost never defining traits of the character in question--their stories would not have to change if one or more of those traits were changed.


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nighttree wrote:
Well that just took the whole thing to being so situational as to be almost useless :(

Again: Golems are not the only constructs, only the most iconic. In my last post, I linked to the d20PFSRD's list of all construct type monsters--any one of those not named 'Golem' would be susceptible to the Impossible Sorcerer's enchantments.


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CLASSIC AUX wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Because as we all know, relationships, romance and even message have nothing to do with story. Are in fact all best avoided if you want good stories.
Not if they are a distraction. Who the hell cares about these NPCs and why do these Mary Sue’s need to be front and center in every AP holding the players hands?

They're...not. Not really at all. As far as making them 'romance options' go, Paizo has never done significantly more than noting that they might be open to such an advance. Past their introductions, their specific actions in an AP are generally left very vague. That was some people's major complaint about Jade Regent, actually (besides caravan rules being FUBAR)--it billed itself in part on the regular NPCs, but devoted little space within the pages of the AP to developing those characters.

I care about the NPCs because they are *part of the story* and *part of the world*, and the more I know about their backstory, personality, and desires, the better a GM can present a living, breathing world populated by actual people.


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Well, I'm no Dev, but it seems to me that Golems would still be immune, but there remain a wide variety of Constructs of varying power levels, from Homunculi and Animated Objects to Akaruzug's who are all now susceptible to your enchantments.


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Irori is really the only one I can think of where celibacy would be highly common, and even then, I don't think it would be universal to his priesthood--Irori recognizes all rigorously followed paths to enlightenment, so while many priests of Irori take vows of chastity to avoid distraction, I'm sure that he has tantric sects as well.

Abadar, Erastil, and *maybe* Iomedae, meanwhile, are the only others who would even really care about your sex life, but they just want to make sure you get married, first. (Well, Lamashtu cares about your sex life--she wants you having lots and lots of it so you can birth more mutant babies.) Everyone else ranges from indifferent on the subject to encouraging you to have a good time.


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Iomedae (when written properly as opposed to the mockery in Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth) may not be as powerfully interested in redemption as Sarenrae, but neither is she anywhere near as quick to rush to violent judgement as Ragathiel. Iomedae doesn't care who you are, she cares what you do. A tiefling's nature is no fault of their own, and if they rise above those origins to be righteous, all the better. If the character has been faihful and true, Iomedae should have exactly zero qualms about giving them the mantle.


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Skills aren't useless, per se, albeit some do not scale very well to the resources of higher level parties. The problem is that, for the most part, they are not defining capabilities that you build a character around, but rather as a means of interacting with the world--the price to pay the game, really. There's a certain amount of fun in being the guy with the most tools, but the best ones are tools that everyone has, and when those tools simply don't apply in a meaningful way, you want other tricks at your disposal.

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