Also notice his sudden charge lets him run at speed x2 and attack at the price of just 2 actions, with 1 left to attack again against a mage, or raise shield (and then block) against a warrior. Nothing to laugh at imho.
Everyone can already move twice and attack once at full attack using the new action economy so the feats only function is to reduce it to two actions. Still very useful but we’ve known that since the fighter preview blog.
Derry L. Zimeye wrote:
Huh. I'd been under the impression that we'd be using the same characters the whole way through Doomsday Dawn, but if I'm understanding this thread right, we'll need to create multiple characters. Do you think it's still feasible to have the same party the whole way through, or would it be better to run it with the different characters for each scenario?
You’ll make 5 characters per player (not including any deaths). The characters you make in the first chapter you get to return to in later chapters after some level jumps. So you won’t be using traditional XP/leveling. The characters you make between these chapters will be a specific level and may have other restrictions (some are designed to stress test specific rules). Story wise it’s designed to be 5 different characters but unless it’s specified in that chapter you could just make 5 fighters if that’s your thing. I would take the opportunity to test a few different options though.
I thought that may have been it so I went back to the blog:
Cleric Playtest Blog wrote:
At 1st level, you might pick Communal healing so when you cast heal to tend to a creature other than yourself, you regain some Hit Points too, or you might take Turn Undead, which forces undead that critically fail their saves against your heal spells to flee from you. (This works great with the 3-action version of heal!) You could also pick Expanded Domain to explore your deity's domains further, gaining the initial power from a different domain than the first one you chose. You can select this feat twice, letting you delve into a maximum of three domains!
So it does seem a class feat is missing here or the blog meant 2nd level.
Getting access to two domains at first level (and therefore more spell points if I recall correctly) could be pretty amazing.
I was concerned when I heard you needed to know a spell at a higher level to cast it there so spontaneous heightening is a relief. But what is the logic behind them not being able to do this all the time? Is it too much of an advantage over a wizard or does it present too many options to a player when selecting which spell to cast?
j b 200 wrote:
The penalties to your second and third attack only kick in after making your first and second attacks respectively. So if you spend your first two actions on something else like moving or using hunt target then use your third action to attack then it takes no penalties.
Charlie Brooks wrote:
I remember Erik mentioning that forlorn elves will be part of the lore mentioned in the playtest. I think the forlorn story fits better when the kids around you outgrow you.
How does a bow fighter and bow ranger compare?
Fighters get a +1 extra to all attacks due to being higher weapon proficiency at most levels. So fighters have +1 advantage on first attack of the round, equal on second and -1 compared to the ranger on 3rd. Rangers have to spend an action per target to get this but also have a +2 bonus over fighters outside the first range increment. Then it comes down to what feats you can add on top
I don't think it's necessary for every action to be fully explained. It's fine for using a dragon's breath potion to just take two actions and to let the player decide what exactly that means, but specifying that one of those actions involves breathing opens a massive can of worms.
I think it’s fine for that case, it’s a big deep breath to fill your lungs like you were about to blow out a cake full of candles. 2 seconds to do this seems reasonable.
One thing the spell actions has got me doing is thinking about how I would role play them at the table. You can plan it out on your character sheet for each spell.
For heal you can say:
It might take a bit more prep work and I would try and think of something more clever to say. But if you keep the parts consistent then your group will recongise your spells by your characters words and actions rather then just telling them. Just keep them pretty short or don’t drag out your other actions. “I then loose an arrow at the orc over there *rolls*”.
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Fighters only resource to manage was HP which was cheaply restored each fight by CLW spam which meant fighters entered every battle with full HP while casters got weaker and weaker as they consumed their spells. This made designing encounters difficult because each of them needed to be capable of reducing a fighter from full HP to 0 in a single encounter to be a threat while also considering casters may or may not have any resources left.
If healing is more restricted in PF2 then it can be expected at the end of the day the fighter may be low on HP and the casters are low on spells and a medium level fight could be a good challenge. If we as a playing group can get behind the idea that you don’t need to be at full HP at the start of every combat and the game is balanced around that ideal then we could have more varied encounters and likely a more interesting game.
Cursed items like that which you use on someone else could just apply automatically which is the 3rd option mentioned in the blog. So it could work like a magic weapon.
Just spit balling here:
What if wands became arcane magic only. Then you can drop wand charges and leave it to resonance pools. The divine have their divine favoured weapons, I don’t think we need to see them holding wands. Staves can still be used for both but keep that max charge or 3 per day.
That leaves healing items to scrolls and potions each still costing a single RP. Make scrolls have level requirements to read so you can price them at points that higher level scrolls are more attractive then lower level scrolls without having to worry about lower level characters buying them. You could even make the scrolls take 2 minutes to read or something to keep them out of combat and keep this kind of healing to “small rests” between combats. That I feel would feel a bit better then the current “I stick you with my low level wand 6 times until you are fully healed”.
Remember the point of the new resonance is that you can’t fully heal between every fight. That’s not designed to lead to shorter days, it’s designed to lead to combats that are less deadly on their own but will stack together to wear a party down. Instead of healing after every fight maybe you only get a few really powerful healing spells so you just heal 2-3 times a day. Changing this behaviour in the players to not waste the healing for very stratch will be tricky and I don’t see how this can be easily balanced between parties with healers and those without.
As for the skills, there are certain things locked behind skill ranks so if building a bridge is considered something an inexperienced can’t even attempt they can either lock it behind an expert skill rank or higher item level.
Most of the skills in the game benefit if everyone in the party can attempt them. It’s not much fun if you are the only one who can sneak through an area or swim across the river. Often if you can’t do it as a group then you can’t do it. Now being good (expert, master? I don’t recall) at sneaking allows you to help your party sneak so you can lead your party past whatever you wanted to avoid.
If they need 3 to hit AC then 13 or higher is a crit so it’s 40% chance of crit on the first swing and a 90% chance to hit. On a second attack it’s 15% chance to crit and 65% to hit and on the 3rd attack is 5% crit and 40% chance to hit.
For the caster needing 13 to hit they would only have the 5% chance to crit, 40% hit on the first attack, 15% chance to hit on the second and would only hit on a natural 20 on the 3rd.
So on the first attack the fighter is over 2x likely to hit and 8x likely to crit then a caster and by the third is 8x likely to hit.
We’ve often been told the 3rd attack is not going to be bad enough to make a fighter consider doing something more productive like raise a shield or re-position but that would be the starting point of a caster. It’s too big of a gap. Give them their first attack as good as a fighters second attack and at least they can get one semi-good hit in.
They couldn’t do four degrees of success without overhauling the maths. If they kept the current -10 to + 10 range then those old bonuses would mean at higher levels some characters would automatically critical succeed while others automatically critically failed because the difference between characters was vastly more then 20. If you change the -10 +10 to something else like -20 to +20 then the d20 has much less impact on the result and you still have the auto succeed and fail between the party.
Unless you are fighting something lower level you are always going to want extra to-hit to get those crits. I’m not sure if you are aware that level isn’t just added to Attack, it’s also added to AC. So it’s your modifier and weapon proficiency and item/spell bonuses that will make all the difference in a fight.
This I agree with, it’s a bit like advantage in 5E where you can advantage for 5 reasons and disadvantage for 1 so they all cancel out. +6 may be too OP but maybe +2 for prone or flanked but +3 for prone AND flanked and +4 total for prone, flanked and otherwise flat footed.
Heal doesn’t even lose efficiency but is more situational. One action and two action heal are the same healing but gives you a little bit more range then most movement speeds. The 3rd action going to depend on if you have 2 or more people nearby that need healing (or undead that need slaying) because it’s always going to be d8’s behind the single target spell.
Magic missile on the other hand does seem like a waste to use anything less then 3 actions. This mechanic would be really fun on a cantrip as it wouldn’t be as harsh if you wanted to trade 1/3rd of the damage for a move or interact action.
With the level stuff it helps remembering that level just represents experience. A level 3 item? That just requires a more experienced crafter or is expected to be found in the hands of a more experienced character then a level one character. Much like the old skill rank requirements required your character to be sufficiently skilled before taking that prestige class.
As for the maths, if you aren’t rebuilding the system from the ground up why even make another edition. I think they have done a good job explaining why they wanted to start over. The adventures can be converted on the fly but all the class, race and feat options will have to stay locked in PF1 until they are updated in future books. It’ll be interesting to see the pace in which they release those classes.
Logan just posted today in the Monk thread that a character that starts with a 18 & 16 could have 19 & 18 at 5th level and 20 & 19 at 10th which makes you absolutely correct.
Good thinking, so it makes them choose between being flat footed for a round or using an action to move back. That’s pretty useful and makes the previous choice of taking the shield block feat and using your action to raise the shield and reaction to absorb the blow more worthwhile.
The Feats the PCs gained upon Levelling didn't seem to come up much which means we should be able to excise them from the game with relative ease. :)
Leveling up is +1 to almost everything and select new feats. If you drop feats from the game you aren’t really progressing. Maybe if you were only doing one shots that lasted 1-3 levels you could get away with this but higher level play should need feats.
Based on listening to GCP playing curse of everflame the extra 1d8 was indeed coming from an extra action. So he had the normal choices of one action 1d8+4 melee, two action 1d8+4 ranged and 3 action burst of 4 healing but also gained two action 2d8+4 melee and three action 2d8+4 ranged.
Quicken spell is not a condition it’s metamagic and I’m pretty sure it’s been mentioned as in the game. However, given the rest of the metamagic feats are used by adding extra actions I’m not sure what quicken is going to cost. Higher spell slot?
Most races only move 20 or 25 feet per round so should only be moving 60-75 feet rather then 90. Elves are the only core race to get 30 and I think they have an ancestry feat for an extra 5 feat so they will be really jetting around the map. Do we know if heavy armour or high bulk slows speed down?
An elf with a bow should do a pretty good job kiting a melee character. The melee character would want sudden charge just to get a shot in.
I think the 17 or higher rule may have gone as one of the mentioned tweaks. The core part that remains is you get 4 ability scores to boost. This will lead to some high ability scores but if magic boosts are more limited and levels are being applied to all checks anyway I can see how having higher modifiers would be good.
I’m pretty sure all abilities point will be in twos. So if you are starting a stat at 18 you can raise it to 20 at lvl20. There’s no signs so far there will be any odd-number ability scores, especially since ability drain and damage are gone.
Point #2 was referring to Mark’s post:
Mark Seifter wrote:
This seems a lot better suggestion then the ones you replied to as this doesn’t stop you playing at lvl15 but also allows your players to keep using their skill rank and feat increases. I would suggest you still let Fighters get legendary in weapons and Paladins in armour since they are class abilities which to my knowledge doesn’t do anything mythical.
I think I see where the confusion is coming from. You are thinking of “adding your level” to every check to mean you put a skill rank every level. Your skill rank is Untrained (-2), Trained (0), Expert (+1), Master (+2) & Legandary (+3). You get skill rank increases to one skill every odd level starting level 3.
When making a skill check you then use your rank + level + mod.
I think we’ve got almost everything we need via various blogs and replies on forums.
A fighter at first level can choose 3 skills + Int mod to be trained in.
That’s just for a fighter, but most classes work the same they just start with a different number of skills. Rogues are the exception as they gain skill feats AND increases every time they level up rather then just odds and even. So they can have 6 legendary skills.
So, that has 18 skills. You can't read what they are, but that almost certainly makes my deduced skill list accurate and complete (ignore the part at the bottom, we now know that Sense Motive is part of Perception and Profession is a facet of Lore). Assuming they left room for two Lore skills, anyway (which seems likely).
Know Direction has added the video to youtube at 1080p. The small text is still a little hard to read but I can confirm your list is spot on and Lore is indeed there twice.
Thank you!Kyra the Cleric. What were her cantrips like? Doesn’t she provide any damage via spells or are clerics still implied to rely a lot weapons? I’m interested in playing an archer cleric in PF2. I know Wizards won’t need their crossbows anymore but hoping cleric mixing it up is still a thing.
Some of the info I’ve found from a player posting a video:
Longbows have the Volly Trait which gives them a penalty firing too close which Shortbow doesn’t have which makes them both viable for different situations. I don’t know how too close was, did you happen to see this? Did you see any other cases of weapons having interesting traits we haven’t discussed which makes them play differently?
Is there anything that surprised you with any of the characters?
I think this goes with NPCs and Monsters not being built like PCs in 2E. NPC crafting rules can be different.
Will there be rules or upgrading weapons and armour via crafting? Rather then selling your old greatsword and buying new material to craft a new one could a crafter spend 4 days and re-forge it to a better quality?
Next adventure focused on the undead it would fun using a maulaxe to make quick work of Skeletons and Zombies. Totally inspired by Stormbreaker in Infinity War.
I really feel this system is designed to make blaster casters think more about taking more interesting choices with their low level spells. You can do big damage with your highest spell slots, regular damage with your cantrips which frees up your low level spell slots for some variety since fhere’s point taking low level damaging spells other then maybe a few magic missles for a guaranteed hit to finish a low HP foe.
If I was making a blasting wizard with these rules I think it would have been a more interesting wizard I made when I first started playing 3.5/PF.
A “Stable” condition should cover it.
As a player who went from 3.5 to PF to 5E what I’m looking for is a battle system as quick as 5E but who’s character customisation doesn’t end at 3rd level.
The 3-action turn has me very excited for combat. Once players know what they are doing combat turns should move pretty quick and stay that way at all levels. With all the general, race and class feats plus big ability boosts I feel there’s lots of options for every class.
The only other thing I could ask for is better class balance. We’ll have to hope the play test can iron that out where required.