Thanks for the helpful and constructive responses.
As I mentioned... I'm just now learning about the PFO project. However, I think hearing about various 'first impressions' can be really helpful.
At the moment, I think the average person has to really dig for solid information on the proposed game via forums, blogs, etc.... which I don't think is the best way to lead the Kickstarter pledge drive.
But a lot of the explanations I've read were helpful and it's good to know I misunderstood some key things.
I'll keep a keen eye on PFO, and when I get some time I'll read the backlog of blog posts to become more familiar with everything.
However, the actual Pathfinder campaign setting isn't my favourite... so if I eventually pledge, it will be to support the sandbox format and the vision of the developers.
I'm still not sure I agree with everything, but we'll see how it goes once I learn more.
Another thing which concerns me is the amount is how the developers will actually police the 'degenerates' that this type of game attracts like flies to a fresh corpse.
It also depends a lot of the definition of 'griefing'.
Yup, that's where I'm coming from. I didn't pledge for the Technology Demo... I wanted to wait and see how that looked first, and read more about GW's intention for the game.
Seems that (for me), that was a wise choice.
Either way... for GW to stand a chance in hell of raising 1M+ on kickstarter, they CAN'T just target those already in the know. No need to preach to the choir, IMO.
As someone relatively new to this, there are definite issues with the information that's available at the moment, as others have mentioned.
BTW - The video on the Kickstarter front page.... is that from the technology demo?
Is there a lot of the demo that non-backers aren't seeing?
I don't mean to sound harsh. I realize a lot of work must have gone into that demo (if that's what it is), and I also realize it's in the concept stage... but nothing I saw from that video really made me say "Wow, this is really different! I want in on this!"
I keep going between excitement and disappointment with this project, and I'm still on the fence about pledging at all.
Pathfinder MMO? SANDBOX?!?! HELL YES!!
Especially when I read the CEO's opinions on sandbox style MMOs, and why they previously failed and will make a comeback.... this really excites me.
But then I catch wind that we actually have to pay during beta... and after some research and posts by GW staff, I understand a little better.
But ok... I think I'm almost on board....
But then I read more about the subscription and SKILL system, and how they are tied together. How it sounds like they are copying EVE, and the advancement of your character skills have NOTHING whatsoever to do with achievements in the game (which really bugs me). You just get constant training, on AND offline, depending on how much you paid.
Of course the cap seems to be the full month subscription... but then I read that there will be a market available where you can buy "training points" for in-game currency. Currency which is available through the cash shop for real money.
Hence, it SOUNDS like someone with a lot of money can just cap out on training for the month, then go to the market and buy even MORE training points until they have quickly maxed out their character.
Finally, the thing that bugs me the most.... is that the game systems seem to have nothing whatsoever to do with the actual Pathfinder RPG rules.
It sounds like 'Pathfinder' is only being licensed because the work on the world and lore is already done, and there is an established fanbase.
But otherwise it doesn't seem to actually resemble the Pathfinder RPG I love.
I may be way off base here, but these are some of the reasons I am still on the fence. I've read the blog, kickstarter, and the Paizo forums... and I'm glad I did, because the more I hear about Pathfinder Online the more nervous I become about donating.
This was the exact opposite reaction I had to things like Project Eternity and Star Citizen. The more they showed me, the more interested I became.
As for the Pay Beta, I don't really get the connection with what Paizo did with Pathfinder's development or even Minecraft.
Minecraft? I've never played it myself, but know many people who did during the beta... and not a single one ever paid for a copy of the game, for what it's worth.
Finally, there have been some HUGE gaming disasters recently when it comes to this ongoing 'crowd' development beta games.
Just look at what Fantasy Flight Games did with their new Star Wars RPG.
I'm not saying that GW is going that route... just be careful.
"and I BARELY know anything about psionics"
That sums up your issue right there.
It also explains your broken (not OP, but illegal) build you are bragging about. The other minor issues can be settled as the other posters described.
I'm a huge supporter of Dreamscarred Press and their take on Psionics in Pathfinder. In fact, I generously supported their Kickstarter for their upcoming hardcover.
It didn't start that way. I was a skeptic, but then I actually made an effort to understand what the issues were.
If you actually do your homework, like me, you'll likely find little issue at all. If you still do, then you probably DO have an issue with Psionics as a theme, much like others hate firearms or anything Eastern in their "Fantasy" world.
I saw BB36's post in another thread, and it sounded like the Soulknife was able to instantly recharge their Psychic Strike without using an action.... so they were getting the Psychic Strike damage on every attack, and were likely dual-wielding.
I don't see how this is possible, as I've looked into the Soulknife... but I really haven't had a chance to dive into the books yet, so I might be missing something.
Also, from his previous posts, it sounds like the Psionic players in his game may have been using psionic rules/feats from 3.5 edition, which would cause issues I'm sure.
Please expand on guidelines for DMs regarding WBL for newly created higher level characters and item crafting.
Specifically, by default should new characters buying equipment using the WBL guidelines be allowed to pay half-cost for items they can craft themselves, so long as they bought the required crafting feats and have the skills.
If so, is it fair to craft all their WBL items (effectively doubling WBL) or is a cap of 50% (or something similar) fair by default?
I know most DMs houserule this (mine did after I made a lvl 11 Forgemaster Cleric with most of the crafting feats), but some guidelines and explanations would be helpful.
Infinite time stop! Infinite shapechange! Infinite true strike! Infinite blink! Infinite everything!
So new mundane arms and armor, along with potential re-balancing and errata was sacrificed for.... a bunch of new magic items that are horribly designed? For better (this ring) or worse (bodywraps)?
I appreciate the effort put into this book, and I still appreciate Paizo... and now that I've had more time to read the book I know that there are /some/ well written parts... but this book is definitely a huge disappointment for me.
Actually, the writer later admitted that it WASN'T designed that way... but that he was severely restricted on word count and he would have went over if he added Disable Device as a class skill (because it would have required a supposed reprint of their class skills, which take up a few lines).
In my group, it's one of houserules that Archeologists get Disable Device as a class skill.
Steve Geddes wrote:
I don't think 3PP products are built from a consistent set of understandings of what the rules mean, how they should be applied and how options should be balanced. You may well end up trying to fit a tractor wheel to a Porsche.
The problem with this statement is that it applies to Paizo as well.Hence the current debacle over the Monk's Flurry of Blows.
I love Paizo, and they are easily my favourite RPG developers to date, particularly in how close and responsive they are to the community. Unfortuntely (or fortunately!) they are human, and make mistakes, and also don't abide by a consistent set of understandings of what the rules mean.
To my knowledge, there is not a single Paizo employee or freelancer with eidetic memory and a PhD in RPG development. That's not a bad thing, but you can't expect perfection from 3PP developers anymore than you can from Paizo itself.
Personally, I've always been against 3PP stuff. For a long time, it was because I had this weird idea that 3PP was "cheating" or completely unbalanced because it was unofficial.
There are some amazing 3PP developers that have created some of their own RPG systems as well. Green Ronin comes to mind, with Mutants and Masterminds. It's fantastic if you love Superhero RPGs. :)
Ultimate Equipment drops in six days... I wouldn't sweat the scorpion whip until then, as there's a good chance it will be updated in there.
NOT a good chance, at all, especially if you read my previous post.
Subscribers like me have had the Ultimate Equipment PDF for a while now, and trust me... Paizo did NOTHING to update any of the mundane arms and armor, nor did they add anything new.
The weapons and armor sections are literally cut and paste from previous books... this includes the scorpion whip, which has the crappy and confusing UC version ported over.
The attitude seems to be that they wanted to focus on the magic gear... but in doing so, they basically ignored the mundane stuff. They missed a GOLDEN opportunity to clean a lot of weapons up and introduce errata, but they didn't.
It would have been great if they used Ultimate Equipment as an opportunity to clear this issue up, as well as many others.
But most of the mundane gear section in the new book is just cut and paste, warts and all.
The magic item section and loot tables are better, but that's apparently at the expense of the mundane items. If they were more clear that magic items were the focus of the book, I would have cancelled my subscription... but oh well. I just look at the money they got for the Ultimate Equipment book and the character portfolio as my donation to a great company I still want to support. ;)
I'll take the good with the bad though. I never expected the Advanced Race Guide to be as good as it was.... that was definitely a great surprise!
Earthbreaker and Klar? Ooooooh, what feat is that?
EDIT: NVM, found it! Thunder and Fang. D20PFSRD says it's from an issue of Pathfinder in 2008... is that even Pathfinder RPG legal?
3.5 Edition had a handy feat called "Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting"
Our group converted it for use in Pathfinder. It's not overpowered at all... in fact, the bonus to damage per attack is negligible. It's along the same lines as how most optimizers consider Exotic Weapon Proficiency to be a waste of a feat.
It's fantastic for flavor though. :)
There are no precedent for rules changes of this kind of magnitude, even in previous editions.
Hell, it's how we got 3.5 edition.
But whatever Gorb. I gave my opinion, nothing more. I wasn't claiming special insider knowledge.
BTW, I noticed you've been especially touchy lately... did a pet or relative die recently?
Ok, you're right again. Thanks for living on these forums 24/7 and nitpicking every word I say.
I'll amend my previous blanket statement, because I also noticed they included the errata to Brass Knuckles. Too bad there are still so many other issues left untouched.
Yeah, you're right! A slight adjustment to a single class feature IS TOTALLY THE SAME as rewriting an entire class.
Duh, how could I be so stupid. Gorb, you toothy bag of genius, how could I not see it?
Speaking for myself, I wasn't looking for a 'Power-Up'. This isn't Rifts, nor do I ever want it to be.
But I'll agree that I was approaching the book from a player's perspective, which left me very disappointed. I think it was fair to expect more new material than what was released in their Golarion-specific 33 page Equipment crunch book... or at least something on par. But I didn't get that.
Nor did we get any fixes, errata, or re-balancing.... which truthfully really shocks me.
It was released as part of the Ultimate line of books, which up until now have been aimed at players as much (or more so) than DMs. So maybe you are right that it should have just been released as part of the Gamemastery line.
After reading through more of the book, I would hazard 20% actual new material in the entire book.... and that's being generous.Though they often try to present older material in newer ways, such as in 'kits' and such, but that doesn't count to me.
Honestly, most of the newer material is simply from new magic items.... maybe 1/3 is new. That, plus tables (if you are a DM who is into that sort of thing).
The actual mundane equipment, including arms and armor, are more a case of "a half-dozen things scattered here and there".
The Kyoketsu Shoge write-up is a straight copy and paste. Hardly anything was updated, balanced, or fixed. Very unfortunate.
Then I think you already know exactly what you want.
An Air Elemental Sorcerer. You can't get a better dedicated electricity blaster than that.
If you play a human, you'll actually have a ton of spells to choose from at higher levels, so it's still possible to have a bit more versatility.
As for the Druid, you /may/ be disappointed with your options. You already said you wanted to be a dedicated blaster... so back-up healing isn't needed. Just get a couple wands of Cure Light Wounds and anyone can heal if they have it on their spell list. If there are absolutely no other casters around, then pump UMB for yourself.
The Druid list just doesn't have the same amount of 'Blaster'-type spells on it's roster, and the Call Lightning spells are rather underwhelming. And Air Elemental Sorcerer not only has access to all the amazing Wizard spells, but you can convert ANY elemental spell to Lightning, which hugely expands your lightning options if that is really your schtick.
Yup, there are blank books/journals you can buy and fill with whatever.
Drawing flasks take a Retrieve Stowed Item action.... so it's a move action.
The Blue Book lists all the local brothels, bars, and gambling dens in a city... which then gives you +2 to Knowledge(Local), Bluff, and limited Diplomacy checks for 24 hours in that city after you read it.
Oh, and the Bayonet is still in there... but it still renders the crossbow or firearm useless when it's attached (that always bugged me too).
As a final spoiler, there is a Bandolier...
BANDOLIER PRICE 5 SP
This leather belt is worn over one shoulder and runs
diagonally across the chest and back. It has small loops
or pouches for holding eight objects the size of a flask
or small dagger. You can use the “retrieve a stored item”
action to take an item from a bandolier. You can wear up to
two bandoliers at the same time (any more than this and
they get in each other’s way and restrict your movement).
But that doesn't let you use potions or oils as a swift/free action.
You might like this new jacket (chest slot), however...
Absorbent fibers line this heavy
I don't think I agree with that. There are many examples in 3.0, 3.5, and even 4th Edition that aren't yet represented in Pathfinder. I'll admit, I was looking forward in some vain hope for some conversions. I knew it was a long shot, so I can't be too disappointed. But suffice it to say, there were options out there.
The longstanding issues with existing gear not being addressed upset me even more.
Oh well, I think I'm just getting too worked up over this right now. I need to sleep on it and look at the book fresh. I really do appreciate Paizo, and I'm not usually the one to have negative knee-jerk reactions to their products. This is actually really out of character for me.
So off to bed with me and I'll eventually comment again with a more matured opinion once I've had time to really digest the book. I know that, for me, part of that doesn't really happen until I get the physical book in my hands, so we'll see when that is.
Thanks for your patience, and I still encourage everyone to give the book a chance when they can. This might not have been what I was looking for, but for others it might be perfect.
Dennis Baker wrote:
As far as I can tell you can use the amulet and the wraps at the same time, is it in the same slot?
Not the same slot (Body and Neck slots, respectively)... however, they both give Enhancement Bonuses to the same thing. Therefore, they should not stack, correct?
An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks."
However, I suppose you could combine them in the sense that you got your special magic properties from the AoMF and the Enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks from the Bodywraps... but that's still INSANELY expensive just to enhance your unarmed attacks, not to mention that anything you get from the Bodywraps don't work on every attack.
Also, you have to pass up on the Monk's Robe or other goodies.
Yet they included the Sawtooth Sabre, which isn't Golarion specific at all. *sarcasm*
And yeah, you expected new items... it has new items... What's the complaint? Aside from the perceived mediocrity of the bandage wraps, which I honestly have no opinion about because I haven't done any math behind it or playtesting yet.
My complaint is that for the full price of a hardcover 400 page Pathfinder Core rulebook I expected more new gear than what was in the softcover 33 page Adventurer's Armory. This very much included arms and armor, which is the first thing that Fantasy RPG players think of when presented with an equipment crunch book.I didn't get that.
The only thing that the Ultimate Equipment book has over the AA is new magic items, but it also failed to include some of the more popular published material while inventing new material that wasn't very well thought out.
As for the Bodywraps, you don't need to do any complex math or playtest it. Just read it. We aren't talking about the delicate balance of features inherent in a new 20 level base class. This is a simple magic item that does what it says on the tin.
To rub salt into the wounds of the Monk players, they even gave us the Brawling magic armor property (which is available to view in one of the more recent UE previews). This gives a nice boost to everyone using Unarmed combat EXCEPT for the monk.
BTW, I previously gave the Cat as an example of something that we didn't have a price of? Now that I look over my copy of AA, I was wrong... they have a lot of the animal prices in there already.
I did a search of the entire PDF using the keywords 'monk' and 'unarmed' (seperately), and didn't find anything else that made up for this.
Not done the book however. I've speed-read it once, but I'll hopefully have time to read it in more detail later.
Yeah, I double-checked just in case. No reach, though I guess it's debatable what it means that you can wield it as a whip if you are proficient in whips (which I suppose is part of the issue).
But yup, just a reprint.
This is a perfect example of what has me upset about the book, among other things.
There is new material in the book, sure, but nothing that justifies the hardcover price (IMHO). Honestly, I enjoyed Adventurer's Armory much more (even with all it's mistakes) and it cost a LOT less and was only 32 pages.
It's hard to believe the book is 400 pages... I keep flipping through the PDF and wondering what the heck happened. It just doesn't seem like the usual Paizo standard of quality that we are used to. *shrug*
I think he was meaning hte bodywrap. Also I take it we still don't know how scorpion whips work? Are they using the UC or armory version if its even in there?
I typed out the prices and description of the Bodywrap exactly as I saw it in the PDF.
As for the Scorpion Whip, here you go...
1d4 ×2 (Performance)
This whip has a series of razor-sharp blades and fangs inset
master arminas wrote:
There are some new clothing options (yay), prices for things which we never had prices before (kitties!), and a small smattering of other items...
... but the FIRST thing that most people will look for in this book are cool new weapons and armor. Weapons and armor they can use as a 1st level character or even base a new concept around. Older DnD players like me might even hope for some conversions of previous edition material to Pathfinder....
But nope. Sorry.
It's not even ALL the published material. No Cutlass (as mentioned) or Fauchard, etc.
Also, a lot of the glaring issues that have been talked about regarding existing weapons was not addressed at all. So we still have Exotic weapons that aren't worth the ink they are printed with, and Martial Weapons that outclass any other option. I wasn't expecting that to change completely, or for them to re-write all the weapons in the Core books... but there were some items published recently that deserved a re-balance, and this was the perfect time.
Known typos and errors from previous books also made it into this one, as if they just cut and paste without any thought. They could have at least worked some errata in, but nope.
There ARE a couple new materials, but nothing stood out to me.
I'm still working on Magic items, but while there are a couple interesting new magical properties... the new items themselves seem to be 'meh' with others (like the Bodywrap) being a huge 'WTF!'. They are also missing some VERY popular magical properties, like Agile, which again makes no sense.
Sorry, I'm kind of emotional right now. I've never posted anything this negative before about a Paizo product, and was happy to post many times about how pleasantly surprised I was by the Advanced Race Guide. That was a great book and FAR surpassed my expectations.... this Ultimate Equipment Guide, however, is the opposite so far. :(
The absence of the Cutlass is the least of my reasons for being disappointed, so please don't make assumptions.
I'd also like to know about these threads, podcasts, and blog posts... as I'm a regular here and have devoured everything they had to say about the book. This was the one book I was most looking forward to this year so I've read everything I could get my hands on.
But like I said, I was aware it was going to be a compilation. However, by definition a compilation should compile everything up to the present.... and they didn't do that.
And YES, I expected SOME new items. This included some new weapons and armor. This is not an unreasonable expectation from a book of this type.
Yup, none of the pirate themed gear made it in, including the cutlass.So it isn't even really an up to date compilation.
This is the first Paizo Pathfinder product I have been truly disappointed in.
The bodywraps are a brilliant compromise.
For ONE attack a round? More, when your BAB reaches 6, 11, and 16?
That's not very helpful to a flurrying Monk, especially since their BAB lags behind. They won't be able to enhance a second unarmed attack until 8th level, which leaves their other two flurry attacks unenhanced as well as any attacks of opportunity they might get.
Honestly, there isn't much to offer for a 'sneak peak', as almost everything can be found in existing books or with a quick search on D20pfsrd.
I knew it would be a compilation, but I was expecting at least SOME new material... and no, the price for a house cat and a couple new alchemy items don't count.
I just started on the magic item section, however, and found this piece.
BODYWRAP OF MIGHTY STRIKES
+1 bonus 3,000 GP
This long cloth is wrapped around the chest multiple times
If anyone was expecting a new balancing pass on the weapons they will be very disappointed. Even weapons that were clearly imbalanced or in need of errata are present.
A few new simple, martial, and exotic weapons would have also been appreciated... maybe even a few conversions of popular 3.5 weapons (re-named, of course). But nope, it's all just one big reprint, mistakes and all.
Yay for cut and paste!
Just downloaded and started reading the PDF...
So far, I have read through the mundane equipment chapters and haven't gone into the magical equipment or artifacts yet.
Not a happy camper. Not at all.
I still haven't finished it, but I already have major issues.
I'll post a full review at a later date.
I also really like Musket Master, as the 'typical' optimized Pistolero build has to resort to some really wacky things (and high levels) to get to the level of absurdity that some players seem to want.
One major problem is that the firearm rules are designed in a way that really prohibits dual-wielding pistols, unless you work around it by growing a third arm or resorting to specific magic tricks.
Even without those, Pistolero tends to get the attention because of the double-barreled pistol and how much burst damage it can produce.
Personally, I believe that the 10ft range of the Double Barreled Musket is a typo/misprint and give it the same range as a normal musket (40ft).
This tends to even things out at higher levels.
For something a little more Exotic and Smashy, I always liked the 3.5 edition Greathammer (a.k.a. the Goliath Greathammer).
1d12 x4 and +2 bonus to Sunder attempts
As was already mentioned many many times... no need to do a conversion for a typical Martial Maul... that's what the Earthbreaker is.
I'm still a bit ticked off that they made the Tetsubo an EXOTIC weapon though, as it's stats don't come close to justifying it.
In my experience, the 3.5 Greathammer was more than balanced as an exotic weapon.
Then again, I also hate how they consider the Greatclub a Martial weapon in Pathfinder... it definitely has Simple-level stats and it makes no sense that you need special martial training to swing a baseball bat.
I REALLY hope they fix these inconsistencies in the upcoming Ultimate Equipment Guide
I jumped into a similar thread a little while ago, where someone was making a BM/Viv Alchemist with Vestigial Arms. Their build relied on taking Multi-Weapon Fighting and getting 2 extra attacks from the extra arms.
I said that went against the description of the Discovery, and was shot town by half a dozen people.
Meh... I still think that's kind of a cheesy interpretation, but whatever.
Is taking "Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick: Pressure Points" a legal use of a Ninja Trick? Does this qualify a Ninja for Extra Rogue Talent?
Another issue is that some players don't own the books (or only the CRB) and use things like d20pfsrd as their main rules resource.
Unfortunately, d20pfsrd doesn't contain every line of text from the books, and is sometimes missing key ones. Also, the rules are sometimes scattered around different pages of the website when they are on the same page of the actual book.
Don't get me wrong... I LOVE the d20pfsrd and all the work they do. I use it a LOT, especially for quick rules look-ups during games and for cross referencing stuff... but it is no substitution for actually reading the print books or PDFs as you are supposed to.
Thanks so much Jason it's really cool to be playing a game where the lead designer is so in touch with the player base. It makes me proud to support Paizo with my gaming dollars.
Indeed! Thank you so much for your response, Jason!Seriously, I hope you guys NEVER change when it comes to communication with your players. You folks are a shining example to all developers.
I'm super pumped for this book.... equipment books have ALWAYS been a weakness of mine... and 400 or so pages? My god, it'll be heaven.
I almost feel spoiled, especially after getting the Advanced Race Guide just a little while ago. It easily exceeded all my expectations!
This one might be harder though... as I have more concrete hopes and expectations for the UE. Namely, I want to see versions of favourite 3.0/3.5 exotic weapons... like the Fullblade (2d8 19-20/x2) and Greathammer (1d12 x4 +2 to Sunder).
Looking forward to more previews though, and I'm sure the book will be great! Can't wait! :)
This was the post that got me riled, sorry.
I responded in Lycanthropic Rage before I read the rest of the thread and saw that saner heads prevailed and that Dragonamedrake compromised a little in his RAW argument.
Duluth? Awesome! I'm practically right next door!
I live in Thunder Bay, less than an hour from the US Minnesota border. It takes me about 4 hours to get to Duluth, give or take. Nice city!
I recommend you check out a famous record store there called 'The Electric Fetus'. They have a lot of cool stuff, and not just records.
Also, if you ever get the chance, I would HIGHLY recommend driving a couple extra hours north of Duluth to Lutsen and Grand Marais. Lutsen has amazing hiking and super cheap lodging in the summer, and AMAZING skiing in the winter. Grand Marais is a cute little northern town right on Lake Superior... very beautiful and has a lot of cool little shops... and the World's Best Donuts!
Then if you feel up to it, cross the border and come to Thunder Bay! Fort William Historical Park (where I have worked) is a great tourist spot... it's a Living History Museum that re-enacts the Fur Trade in 1815. The entire place is a re-built Fur Trade Post. Very cool! (when I worked there, I used to dress up like a Voyageur or Scottish Gentlemen and talk to visitors in-character)
If I wasn't leaving for British Columbia this week, I'd suggest we meet up for a game, as I'll take any excuse to drive down there and especially to make new gaming friends. :)
Sorry, sometimes the Were-bear in me comes out, especially when confronted by ridiculous loopholes that no sane DM would allow.
I love theorycrafting as much as the next optimizer, but when something is so blatantly against RAI and isn't even clearly RAW... I can get a bit uppity, sorry.
As for PFS... you could create someone from Minata, sure. The Dragon Empires Primer is even legal... but you would have to convince a DM/judge of this cheese in the first place. Good luck with that.