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Saffron Marvelous wrote:
If Sun Wukong isn't a monk, no one is a monk.

I haven't read the actual story, but from a brief glance at Wikipedia, and from various other sources (like "The Forbidden Kingdom" w/ Jackie Chan & Jet Li, I know, HollyWood stretches tales blah blah) I have to agree with Saffron. To quote the first 2 paragraphs from the Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Wukong):

Wikipedia wrote:

Sun Wukong, also known as the Monkey King, is a fictional figure who features in body of legends, which can be traced back to the period of the Song dynasty.[2] He appears as a main character in the 16th century Chinese classical novel Journey to the West (西游记). Sun Wukong is also found in many later stories and adaptations. In the novel, he is a monkey born from a stone who acquires supernatural powers through Taoist practices. After rebelling against heaven and being imprisoned under a mountain by the Buddha, he later accompanies the monk Tang Sanzang on a journey to retrieve Buddhist sutras from "the West".

Sun Wukong possesses immense strength; he is able to lift his 13,500 jīn (7,960 kilograms (17,550 lb)) staff with ease. He is also extremely fast, able to travel 108,000 li (21,675 kilometres (13,468 mi)) in one somersault. Sun knows 72 transformations, which allow him to transform into various animals and objects; however, he has trouble transforming into other forms, due to the accompanying incomplete transformation of his tail. Sun Wukong is a skilled fighter, capable of defeating the best warriors of heaven. Each of his hairs possesses magical properties, capable of being transformed into clones of the Monkey King himself, and/or into various weapons, animals, and other objects. He knows spells to command wind, part water, conjure protective circles against demons, and freeze humans, demons, and gods alike.[3]

(the bold is my emphasis)

Later on, it makes this point under "Names and Titles":

Wikipedia wrote:

Xíngzhě (行者)

Meaning "ascetic", it refers to a wandering monk, a priest's servant, or a person engaged in performing religious austerities. Tang Sanzang calls Wukong Sūn-xíngzhě when he accepts him as his companion. This is pronounced in Japanese as gyōja (making him Son-gyōja).

and

Wikipedia wrote:

Sūn Zhǎnglǎo (孫長老)

Zhǎnglǎo used as honorific for monk, because Sun Wukong believed in Buddhism.

So yeah, Sun Wukong - the Monkey King - is LITERALLY a monk, and is referred to as a monk even by other monks. So this isn't like that Hells Angels biker guy you just met at a bar saying he's a Nun. This is one of the many ways that a monk can be.

Sure, there are some things that he can do because he is a supernatural being (like his hairs being able to transform into clones of himself) but many of his powers are from his Taoist practices.

So yes. He's a monk


Stone Dog wrote:
You can always not charge money for it. Quests, services, adventure hooks, and more could remove or reduce the cost of the spell.

Honestly, as a GM, this is what I would do. Unfortunately, I'm not always the GM, and many are not so nice as to say "You fell, so go quest and prove you're awesome and deserve to be reinstated". And the more rules-lawyery among us would balk at a GM doing that, which is why I was curious in the first place.


I started listening to the Glass Cannon Podcast a few months ago when they did the little playtest thing, and one of the recent episodes I've listened to they mentioned atonement (I'm quite a bit behind, like a year or so :-P )

This got me thinking, and maybe this has been addressed before and I just didn't see it, but I'm curious as to how atonement works. One of the things they mentioned is that in PF1 Atonement almost feels like paying indulgences. Especially since it's SO FREAKING EXPENSIVE that a first level Paladin/Cleric/Whatever who falls for whatever reason and needs atonement is, well, stuck to take their next Nth levels in... something else, until they work up the $$$ to pay for atonement.

So how does this work? Is there a new way to atone that doesn't cost an arm and a leg (and maybe a half dozen class levels?) Or is it the same as before?


Grey Star wrote:
Now, about the code, I think the player who plays a paladin, need to define what is the conviction that drives his character into being a paladin. If he acts accordingly whit his conviction, he follows his personal code. If not, he is a risk to falling. I think it's more simple than a universal code and that open the road to a more interesting character development.

The Paladin having a personal reason for following a particular code is definitely something a player needs to think on. Not only when playing a Paladin, but also when playing a Cleric (or other character that strongly follows a deity).

This is a player thing, and also kind of a real-world thing. If IRL you want to carry a gun and catch bad guys, become a police officer. If you can't follow all the rules, then don't. If you become a police officer and you break the rules, don't expect there to be no consequences. Knowing why you want to be a police officer can lead you a long way to not committing crimes yourself, or mishandling evidence, or what have you.

What you're asking for Grey Star is a player thing, not a rules thing, and I've always wanted my players to have reasons for what they did (whether or not they played a paladin) because it makes for more fun & in-depth characters.


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HWalsh wrote:
I'm getting incredibly tired of people trying to force non-Lawful Good Paladins in. Just. It is wearing me down, personally, to the point where I've visited these forums less and less.

Yeah, I totally agree. While I don't think it unreasonable for there to be Paladin-like holy warriors for even Caden Calien, Asmodeus or Demogorgon, they are CERTAINLY not Paladins, and the angst around it is draining.

But, this is not a Paladin alignment thread, this is a debugging the code thread! And personally, I like TheFinish's change to the second point in the code:

"You must protect the innocent as best you can, and never knowingly cause them harm."

So, yeah, there's some more pennies for this discussion.


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SilverliteSword wrote:

I was kind of hoping that the stealing armor/weapons thing could be used in combat...

Maybe there's another skill feat that reduces the time it takes to steal something, so between the two you might be able to do it. Especially if your bard is distracting them so they don't notice you.


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Malthraz wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

... but at the risk of an explosion, it's time to reveal the most exciting revelation yet for the entire playtest book. In addition to the index, it also has...

...

...

a glossary of terms!

This is outrageous, it is a total nerf to people that spend their time reading the book cover to cover. How am I supposed to be the table system expert, when anyone can just look things in an index?!

A glossary is totally an argument tax. Now we are forced to look terms up in a glossary, rather than argue about it for 20 minute. This is actually going to reduce the amount time spent playing the game, because Adventure Paths are going to be quick and easier to get through.

I can't believe that Paizo are doing this. I might reconsider even getting PFe2. Maybe I will just have to ban the index and glossary at my table.

You are WRONG SIR!!! Having a Glossary is the One True Way and ranks up there in importance with LG Paladin Goblins as the One True And Bestest Good!!! Also, having a Glossary gives you not only MORE to read, but then you can easily memorize it, and be all smug when people ask for a definition, disagree with your definition, then calmly state "Well, go ahead and look it up then..." and have them read with dread exactly the words that you stated.

This is the essence of the Pathfinder Rules Zealot! Which should be included as a Core Class!!! The range of it's powers know no bound, with abilities such as Detect Wrongness, Channel Rules, CRB Bomb, Smite GM, and reactions like Opportune Rule Quoting that are triggered when someone does something WRONG (obviously this only works when Detect Wrongness is on, but for the Pathfinder Rules Zealot, it is always on, even when the game is off!) Unfortunately, you need to be of the OBJECTIVELY BEST alignment of CENGL! But this isn't a problem for the Pathfinder Rules Zealot, only for the people who OPPOSE the zealot!

@Mark, when are we getting a preview of this class???

:-P


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I like the idea of a Chaos Knight bestowing a reroll & take the greater as a boon instead of the traditional +X boon that's usually bestowed. Or maybe a +NdX or something, like "Target gets +1d6 for attacks, on each attack, for the next round" so they roll 1d20+1d6 to see if they hit. Maybe a little clunky? IDK!

Breaking Rigid Thought -> Out of the Box? or Out of Box Experience? or There is No Spoon???

Warping reality to get a bonus to AC sounds cool, with the reaction to make an opponent hit himself is also pretty nice.


Malk_Content wrote:
When I was young there was something in the back of Mage (2nd edition I think) that brought everything together for me. It was a four page comic, basically showing a typical scene you'd expect in the game. After that was the same 4 page comic, with an explanation of the rules that would be used to resolve those situations. Obviously couldn't be done through out the book, but a one off to help illustrate core concepts to people new to the hobby would be pretty great. Perhaps showing a typical first level encounter.

This sounds really cool!! I like this idea.


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Ohhh LORD!!! A good index AND A GLOSSARY!?!?!?!??!?

And I second (or third, maybe fourth... I just ++ it) the request of having page numbers in the glossary. Having a quick definition, and then a place to go for more information would be awesome.


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2Zak wrote:
BUT is there anyone truly innocent in the world? "Let the one who is without sin throw the first stone".

To bring a real-world religion into this conversation (christianity as taught by Christ): no one is innocent. All are sinners and thus are unable to be right with God (and it's only through the blood of his son Jesus... I won't preach here). Thus, from a very legalistic standpoint you could justify having your LG Paladin of Jesus kill everyone who isn't a Christian (see: the spanish inquisition; which nobody expects). The thing is though, you have mercy, and forgiveness, and this is what Jesus actually taught. This is also what most good deities in fantasy settings actually mean (usually).

This is also a good distinction between L. Good and L. Evil: in the Evil counterpart, you're guilty automatically. No save, just punishment. (LN would follow the law, but jury trial first or some such).

Also, I would think that attempting to save someone's life - even a known murderer - would rank high on a Paladins list of priorities. Evil but maybe redeemable bad-guy you caught and was about to fall off a cliff, do you jump to save him even though it might be a ploy to escape and cause more havok? Yes! Should a paladin lose his powers over not attempting? Probably not if it's the first time, but probably yes if it's part of a long string of oversights (unless the player is just that absent-minded).

The Raven Black wrote:
One essential thing for me on this specific topic is that people clearly understand that innocent and Good are completely different things

Yes. Very Much So.

Tallow wrote:
An Evil Kobold Child running around picking mushrooms and minding his own business could be considered innocent.

Maybe this can be an example in the CRB?? :-P


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Ring_of_Gyges wrote:
If we had some clear idea of what was supposed to be so bad about Infernal Healing, we might be more sympathetic to the Paladin who says "I'm sorry you're going to die, but I won't help you. I won't do evil things, even to help good people."

From the spells description:

Quote:
Components V, S, M (1 drop of devil blood or 1 dose of unholy water)

and

Quote:
You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water, giving it fast healing 1. This ability cannot repair damage caused by silver weapons, good-aligned weapons, or spells or effects with the good descriptor. The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic, though this has no long-term effect on the target’s alignment.

There is no reason for a Paladin to have the unholy water. The devil blood might be available, but probably only right after killing a devil. And honestly, if a Paladin carries around a vial of devil blood to cast this spell, then they're probably doing a few other amoral things they shouldn't be doing.

Also, it probably does bolster the armies of hell, at least a little bit for a short time.


QuidEst wrote:


The new Pally code already avoids the unrealistic expectations and tyrannical conclusions of “or through inaction allow a human to come to harm”.

Verty true, which is good as a not-so-nice-GM could easily say "You didn't do X, and thus allowed untold peasants to come to harm, thus thou art no longer a Paladin of ANYBODY!!! Oh, and save from Divine Flame Strike from your former diety, just b'kuz"


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I don't think it hurts to help people - newbs especially - bootstrap into game with a setting already somewhat at hand. And as much as Paizo doesn't want there to be, there will always be the kids who love role playing but can't afford $5,000 worth of books or subscribe to anything, and thus can only convince their parents to buy them ONE book. That book being the Core rulebook (maybe two if you're lucky, get a monster manual).

This gets them the rules, an overview of a generic & default-ish setting that most people are familiar with, and the rest of your school knowing you're a nerd. :-P

That being said, there was a set of books attributed to Gygax on world building, that included an "Extraordinary Book of Names" and a few others that have been out of print for DECADES. Having Paizo make a set of books like that would be FREAKING AWESOME and would definitely go on my wishlist and would eventually be bought.

Also, you can just ignore it if you don't want it. The fluff is there to make it more enjoyable overall. If you don't want fluff then they don't have to pay artists to draw all the characters & whatnot, and just have a wall of text!


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The one thing I'd really like to point out, just to point out something that may or may not be obvious to some people.

The Paladin's Code seems very 3-Laws (or 3+0th Law if you've read all of the Foundation series). One of the things that Asimov did throughout the series is show how these three simple laws that most people would be like "Yeah, that seems foolproof" are actually *far* from foolproof, and can cause so much trouble all over the place.

I'm not trying to say we should stop trying to get the code as crystal-clear as possible, but there will always be loopholes. Hopefully Mark Seifter has read most of Asimov and realizes this, and thus does not get an aneurysm trying to make it 100% foolproof.


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+1

Also, having some info on Golarion in the core rulebook would be nice, to kind of bootstrap people into the default setting.


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That's what I really, really want. Is a full index that I can use to look up stuff.

When I first got the Pathfinder Core book I geeked out on the fact that there was an index I could look things up in. Compare that to the 3.5 players handbook which was... Unacceptable.

I know I can use an app/the internet/search a PDF instead of looking up things in an index, but there is no where to type in your search terms in a dead tree. And having the rules in book form is always the best IMHO (instant access, no dead batteries, near-infinite screen size, etc...)

Just my $0.02.

And so far, I like what I see. :-D


Ravingdork wrote:

Say I have a 10th-level caster, and I use this feat to sacrifice a 5th-level spell.

I can apply the points to any 4th-level or lower spell(s).

Could I put them onto a 2nd-level spell, say, and tack on a bunch of 3rd and 4th-level power words while still only using a 2nd-level slot (since it's the points from Word Burning that's paying for them)? After all, I'm not manipulating any power words above 4th-level when doing this, so it might abide by your post, depending on what you meant by your phrasing.

if your using a 2nd level spell you cant use 3rd or 4th level words...

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
...This gives you a 2nd level spell slot with a total of 17 point to spend. Note that you cannot add any target or effect word to this spell whose level is higher than 2, but you could add multiple 2nd level words to get a rather powerful combination...

so, disfortunately, you cant do that


Dorje Sylas wrote:
I guess that gets back to the core issue, a Good Player will have his or her action ready when his turn comes up.

i couldnt agree with you more on all accounts, and i'm sure when the whole shebang comes out there will be a web app or three to figure all this out on the fly... or even an iphone/android app (now wouldnt that be something? :P ) but yes, a properly pencil & paper prepared player would be the best way to do this.


Loengrin wrote:

ruemere wrote:

If you need to stop the game in order for the wizard to mull over particulars of a spell, in addition to typical tactical thinking and spell list browsing, you need to acknowledge the possibility of 4 folks getting upset with wizard player taking more time.

Mmmh, I think you're wrong, remember Wizards still have to prepare their spell list in the morning, they pick spell already prepared with words later... ;)
And sorcerers will have only a small amount of words available... So not much time spent on thinking here too... :p

I don't think time is going to be a big issue with this system...

i mentioned this on one of the sticky threads but i'll say it again here, i used to play a lot of hero system and had a few guys in my group use variable power pools (effectively the same thing, just with bunches of powers instead of words) and it canslow the game down if you have a spontaneous caster who needs to write new spells all the time and waits until their turn to do so.

as a gm i would require that even a spontaneous caster have a list of pre-made spells ready to go before the game. then it's only a matter of switching this for that when it comes time to kick some ass!

i also mentioned that there are people who - while playing a simple fighter - take FOREVER to take their turn. so in a sense it depends on the player, and the gm to know his players.


i've downloaded the pdf and looked at it briefly and while i think it's very cool and personally love systems like this i just want to warn GM's who are going to let players test this... even if they know the system (or say they do) systems like this can slow the game down tremendously! before i moved, i used to play a lot of hero with my old gaming group, and while it is an awesome system (i so love point-buy systems) having a player or two with variable power pool (essentially allowing a character to come up with ANY power within the limitations of his pool, which could be crippling to cosmically powerful) the game would slow to a crawl as the player in question would draw up a power for the situation. this would only really apply to spontaneous casters but it can be a problem. so be forewarned!

that being said, it doesn't look as cosmically powerful as a hero system cosmic power pool when used with a sorcerer, so it may not be much of a drag on the game. though it does look cool and i look forward to testing it and seeing how it plays out.

p.s. i also realize there are players out there who take FOREVER to go when they're playing a simple fighter..... a 3.5 fighter..... with nothing special...... 3... 2...... 1........ 1/2.......... alright next player :P