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Sunlord Thalachos

Quintain's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. 869 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Joana wrote:

My RL group used to cast both darkness and light incorrectly, due, no doubt, to descriptions in the Drizzt books of drow "calling down a globe of darkness" over their enemies at will. (A favored tactic that had absolutely no rules backing at all was casting light "on the enemy's eyes" to blind him.)

The casting light to blind was a 1st/2nd Edition tactic.

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Give him a Goz mask and a eversmoking bottle.

Smoke != fog

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bbangerter wrote:

I'm not following you on this Quintain, and I don't think thewastedwalrus is saying this either. He is saying:

If you don't use your readied action before you take another action (such as an immediate or free that is allowed outside of turn) or before your next turn starts, then you lose the readied. But whether you use it or not, on your next actual turn you'd have your full actions - move to reload, standard to ready.

Ah, ok, my misreading of what he is saying. And, I agree.

However, what I am saying is that normally with rapid reload/heavy crossbow, you can attack 1x per round due to action economy. The restrictive reading of readied action means that you can only successfully use a readied action once every other round.

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Action economy says that you get one move action and one standard action.

If your ammo is expended, and you ready a standard action for the next round, you can't use a move action before your readied standard to reload. So, at best you can only ready an action with a heavy Crossbow and rapid reload every other round.

However, under my interpretation you can use your move action just prior to your readied action to fire with it. Easy peasy.

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thewastedwalrus wrote:

They aren't in conflict with each other, they both apply. You can only take your readied action before your next turn and before your next action.

So you can't reload your heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm to be used as a readied action, if you shot it last round?

Seems a bit overtly...restrictive.


It seems to me that you should be allowed or it should be considered that the rest of your turn happens after your readied action occurs (assuming that you didn't already use a swift action/free action before you readied your standard action when it was your turn [no casting a swift magic missile then readied action then another swift action for example]).

Even by the overtly restrictive interpretation of our compatriots above, you are absolutely correct. You get the rest of your turn, just on a new initiative, after your readied action occurs.

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It means that once you study your opponent while in the stance and continue to fight him, you apply the extra damage for every attack you make, and you don't have to spend a swift action to do it on your turn.

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Bronsonfu wrote:


One last question on the readied action thing. Is is possible to make a swift action into an immediate action? I know that they have the same value in action economy. I'll give you an exact example now.

Playing a monk using Kirin style as well as kirin strike. Have already studied the opponent successfully so I want to now ready a standard action to attack the enemy if they cast a spell. They get their turn and they cast a spell so my readied action occurs and I successfully land the attack. What I really want to do now is apply the affect of kirin strike to gain the extra damage bonus but doing so consumes a swift action (something I don't have as stated in above posts). Could I instead use my immediate to apply the affect of kirin strike?

Is the only way to allow what I'm asking to do is to allow it through house ruling?

By RAW, you can't change a swift action into an immediate action, unless there are specific exceptions.

However, the swift action you are attempting is the identification step, and from there, (as I read it), you apply the damage to any strike regardless of when it happens. You don't have to use a swift action after each time you hit someone.

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bbangerter wrote:
Firebug wrote:

So, after your next action, you are going to take your readied action that says you that it must be taken before your next action?

Yeah, nothing in the text says you lose the readied action. You just no longer meet the conditions to take the readied action. Is an immediate/free action an action? It certainly is defined as one by the rulebook.

This is one way to read it, but it is a very narrow and strict reading of it. What you should actually be taking away from that sentence is "before your next turn", which would usually be when your next action comes up because most characters don't have immediate actions available to them, and really no one should ever say "talking causes you to lose your readied action" because it leads to silly results.

"I was going to attack you, but now I can't cause I screamed my battle cry before I started my attack."

So, yes, you can read the rules that way, but IMO it lacks understanding of intent. When its possible to read the rules two ways, always take the one that make more logical sense, even if the other way is more legalistically accurate.

Firebug, you are reading without context. Read the first quote you posted and then the second quote. The "action" referenced in the second statement is in reference to your normal action in your next turn.

Reading the rules so as to negate the utility of the readied action is...self-defeating.

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Firebug wrote:
You can't.
PRD wrote:
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
Also somewhat important:
PRD wrote:
Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
So if you decide to take a free action to talk, you took an action and cannot use your readied action.

There is nothing in this text that says you lose your readied action if you perform an action of a different type than the one you have readied.

Preparing an action is simply declaring what you will do under certain circumstances. This text states that you tell the GM what you are going to do, you aren't locked into doing only that action to the expense of all other action types.

Walking down a hallway (move action) and readying a standard action to respond to attacks is 100% valid.

To answer the OPs question: you still have all the action options open to you whenever they might occur except a standard action.

Walking down a hallway (move action) on your turn and readying a standard action to respond to attacks is 100% valid.

If no one triggers your readied action, you can't replace the readied action with a different standard action. But immediate actions are most certainly available. And taking an immediate action doesn't negate the readied action being available.

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The question posed is what can you do after your readied action has been triggered, not what you can do before.

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Love the latest installment. :)

One aside though, you have a reference to the astral deval in the 1st level magic resistance entry for the succubus.

Which I'm sure the succubus appreciates.

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Actually in our case, we do have an ability to see through stone. So, the question is still valid.

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If an incorporeal creature is attacking another incorporeal creatures that is inside a corporeal wall, does the wall give cover or just concealment? What if the wall can be seen through?

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GM 7thGate wrote:

Yeah, the base rules seem like they are very open to interpretation on this one. I was hoping there might be a FAQ somewhere I had missed.

Quintain, the action for triggering an AOO due to movement is "Moving out of a threatened square". You have to resolve the AOO before that happens or you wouldn't be able to make the attack if the person went out of range.

Also, how would a readied action to attack (trip, I assume) someone standing from prone keep them prone? The readied action definitely happens before the triggering event, when they are still prone on the ground.

Yes, it is moving out of a threatened square, and you get to attack. However, that attack cannot "interrupt" the full move action.

Example. Let's say our enemy moves from out of our reach to moving into our reach and from there one more square in, trying to get past us to attack our friend.

Your attack of opportunity doesn't intrinsically negate that movement. He doesn't "not move". What he does it stop moving where the attack happened. At best, an attack of opportunity can counter an action, or limit an action, if you have some sort of rider on the attack itself, such as re-tripping someone trying to stand up.

An interrupted action prevents that action from happening. Which is solely in the province of readied actions.

The only real time a readied action overlaps an attack of opportunity is when an enemy spellcaster provokes. In that case, the mechanics for readied action and attack of opportunity are the same -- as long as the action is the same.

However, in a readied standard action, you could put things like vital strike or other standard attack action based riders on the readied action that you cannot put on the attack of opportunity -- which is a "non-action" in the action economy list.

As one of the previous posters mentioned, there are multiple ways to resolve the resolution of readied action vs attack of opportunity.

Consistency would be the hallmark of how legitimate a way you resolve it.

You could just as easily have the combatants use competing dexterity checks to determine who goes first, similar as to how simultaneous initiative is resolved.

One note, however. A readied action does reset the initiative


Also, how would a readied action to attack (trip, I assume) someone standing from prone keep them prone?

You wouldn't even need to do a trip action to keep the person prone on a readied action. The readied action intrinsically interrupts (definition: stops the progress of an activity or progress) the action of the enemy -- so, the enemy is prone and performing a move-equivalent action to stand up. The readied action interrupts the move-equivalent action, which results in the person remaining prone.

In the case of the attack of opportunity, the AoO doesn't stop the person from standing, it just allows for a strike due to the enemy leaving itself open to attack. You have to have the trip combat maneuver available to use in order to have the person go from prone to standing to prone again.

There is a lot of overlap when it comes to readied actions that are attacks and attacks of opportunity, granted. But readied actions are far more versatile, and powerful -- allowing things like vital strikes, etc as riders, which aren't possible with attacks of opportunity.

Here's the relevant text that shows readied > AoO

Attack of Opportunity wrote:

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

Readied Action wrote:

You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.[/b]

You will note the lack of text stating that an attack of opportunity "occurs just before the action that triggers it". An AoO is instead resolved immediately upon the provocation occurring.

Pre-emption vs reaction.

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Irontruth wrote:
Quintain wrote:
The fact that a readied action can interrupt the action that it is based on, whereas an attack of opportunity cannot.
AoO interrupt the action as well. If you move (triggering the AoO), you don't complete the move before the AoO, the AoO happens first.

No, you don't interrupt or invalidate the move action, you just stop it prematurely before the provoking creature reaches his destination. These are different things.

Interruption prevents the action from happening at all.

Just like an attack of opportunity based off of someone standing from prone doesn't prevent the person from standing, whereas a readied action to attack someone that is standing from prone would keep them prone.


I do it the same way, but someone else wanting to do it in initiative order also wouldn't be wrong.

Given that a readied action will reset initiative and an attack of opportunity does not, I would say that using initiative as a method of resolving the order of near simultaneous actions isn't the best way of doing it.

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The fact that a readied action can interrupt the action that it is based on, whereas an attack of opportunity cannot.

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You are making up to 5 ranged attacks, so if you are in a position to do so, you provoke 5 times.

It does not take a standard action to fling the sword. The casting time is 1 standard action with a duratio of instantaneous, so the casting and the launching of the swords is all in the same single standard action.

This is no different than a archer having a full attack action firing his bow while engaged in melee insofar as number of attacks of opportunity they are provoking.

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If Event A is being responded to by a readied action and Event A also provokes an attack of opportunity, the readied action does first.

If the readied action invalidates Event A, Event A never happens so it cannot provoke an Attack of AoO.

Its better to think of an Attack of Opportunity as a consequence of certain actions, wheras Readied actions are in preparation for certain actions and naturally come first.

However, you have to be certain of whether the readied action actually invalidates the action or prevents it.

As an example, a counterspell is a readied action that would prevent the casting of a specific spell, but not prevent the casting of the spell itself, which provokes attacks of opportunity.

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Link2000 wrote:

Okay, does that mean I should skip it all together?

I don't want to be problematic, I just thought bouncing arrows of walls would be fun.

It doesn't mean anything other than I wouldn't expect immediate acceptance of your idea.

Ask if the feat applies to bows, to see if you can take it.

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CBDunkerson wrote:
kadance wrote:
The feat makes no mention of firearms
"You can ricochet a firearm shot off the wall and still hit your target."

That is fluff text. Although that does point strongly to RAI.

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Can anyone point me to where the rules are for non-spell based touch attacks? I'm specifically referring to using something like contact poison (while immune like an alchemist) or acid or some other alchemical attack that is delivered by contact?

Is it delivered by the touch attack mechanic? If not, what mechanic is it?

If you have the alchemical attack, and it is delivered by touch attack, do you threaten squares around you similar to a spell?

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Wrong again.

Let's take the Touch Spell out of the equation for a moment. Let's say you want to punch the guy. Normally, that's an Unarmed Attack. And Unarmed Attacks cannot be done as an Attack of Opportunity, and plus they provoke one if you make it so. Improved Unarmed Strike or some other specific ability that says so overrides those normal rules, allowing you to make AoOs with them and making them not provoke when you perform them.

Now, ignore the Unarmed Attacks for a moment. You have a Touch Spell, let's say Shocking Grasp. The rules say that delivering a Touch Spell is an Armed Attack, and therefore when you perform a Touch Attack with the Shocking Grasp spell cast, it can be done as an Attack of Opportunity, and doesn't provoke for performing it. The rules also say that if you perform an attack successfully, such as an Unarmed Strike or Claw Attack, the spell discharges into the target that you hit.

Keep in mind that in those instances, you follow the normal rules set by the attack condition, which the portion you quoted re-iterates; that is, if you perform an Unarmed Strike without an Improved Unarmed Strike feat or similar ability, the Unarmed Strike you perform to deliver the spell provokes, and cannot be made to provoke.

Also, you glossed over...

I wasn't attempting to gloss over anything, only seeking clarificaiton, as it seems convoluted to think that if you are holding the charge of a spell, you threaten (as far as responding to AoO provocations is concerned) if and only if you touch only to deliver the spell, but not threaten (and cannot respond to AoO provocations) if you try to punch someone, which also delivers the spell.

The end result of delivering the spell to it's target is met either way.

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Ok, so the basic conclusion of all of this tangential stuff is this:

If you cast a touch attack spell, you can make a touch attack as if you were armed. As in, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing your touch attack.

However, despite the fact that you can make a touch attack as if you were armed, you are not considered to be armed while holding the charge, and because you aren't considered to be armed, you do not threaten the squares around you, and therefore cannot perform attacks of opportunity yourself with your touch attack spell.

... Unless you use improved unarmed strike or natural weapons (which allow for being armed and therefore can threaten).

Am I getting this straight?

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

You're reading it wrong. The text says that you aren't considered armed, and you provoke Attacks of Opportunity as normal, because the game presumes you're making an Unarmed Strike, and uses those base rules.

Similarly, if you have Improved Unarmed Strike, you apply those benefits to that attack.

Right, but in our scenario, the caster wants to make an attack of opportunity on an ally using a spell that has been held.

So, if caster is not considered to be armed, then he doesn't threaten the squares around him, and if he doesn't threaten the squares around him, he can't make an attack of opportunity, on an ally or enemy.

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Holding the Charge: ... Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

I was re-reading the text for holding the charge. If I read the bolded part of the text is true, then you can't even use a held charge in an attack of opportunity, as you do not threaten while unarmed-unarmed.

A held charge attack is considered to be unarmed-unarmed, and while unarmed-unarmed, you don't threaten the squares around you.

The only way you can make an attack of opportunity with a held-charge spell is if you are armed-unarmed (i.e improved unarmed strike).

Am I reading this right?

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Actually, the barbarian can touch the Cleric and the spell will be delivered. Same result.

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Diego Rossi wrote:

Most, but not all spells are "independent" from the a creature status after they have been cast.

An example of a spell where the friend/foe status matter Monster summoning if the summoned creature is something with which you can't communicate.

The bear you have summoned will attack the enemies. Probably the enemy closest to its location, unless you use handle animal or speak with animals when you summon it. Who are your enemies isn't set the moment in which you cast the spell or it wouldn't attack enemies that where hidden when he was summoned, nor it would fight for you if you...

I agree, excepting that I would think that a summoned creature would key off your actions, so if you attack an ally, then the creature would naturally think him an enemy and follow suit.

However, this is only an exception because the "spell effect" is a creature of a certain amount of independent intelligence.


As any touch spell can be delivered this way we are speaking of a serious advantage.

It's really a moot point, because in the same situation, an active ally that moves through an adjacent square of our touch-spell caster could reach out an touch the caster as a free action and receive the touch spell anyway. It doesn't even take an attack roll.


If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.

The only time this even comes into play is when the ally doing the provoking is not fully in control -- in which case, the caster would indeed have to treat the individual as an enemy in full and the former ally would treat the caster as an enemy as well.

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The cavern we were in was wider than the 20' radius, but not higher.

In this case, the torches "dim light" radius does not reach past the darkness area of effect.

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Here are all the relevant FAQs for Darkness:

Darkness: Can adding additional sunrods to the area of the spell increase the light level?
No, sunrods can never increase the light level of an area of darkness because they are not magical sources of light. In such an area, it automatically defaults to the ambient natural light level (the light level from natural sources, such as the sun, moon, and stars—not torches, campfires, light spells, and so on), and then reduces it one step.

Non Magical Light Sources:
Darkness: Can a nonmagical light source increase the light level within the area of darkness if the light source is outside the spell's area?
No. Nonmagical light sources do not increase the light level within the spell's area, regardless of whether the light source is in the area or outside the area.

Non Magical Light Sources through Darkness:
Darkness: Can I see light sources through an area of darkness?
No. If a darkness spell reduces the light in the area to actual darkness (or supernatural darkness, if using a more powerful spell), you can't see through the darkness into what is beyond it.

Now, here's the scenario:

If someone with regular 60' darkvision is trying to find enemies that are on the opposite side of an area of Darkness and outside the radius of the darkvision, but are carrying torches.

Can the creature with darkvision see the enemy carrying the torches?

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Diego Rossi wrote:

If you are taking an AoO against ally you treat him as an enemy.
- doing that break invisibility and sanctyary 8and similar spells or effects);
- touching him require a to hit;
- he get a save;
- tripping him require a successful Combat Maneuver;
- his status for several spells casted by you change;
- similarly your status for several spells casted by him change;
- some allied creature (as an example summoned monsters) will see you as a enemy and could attack you.

Essentially you are taking an action that change your status from ally to enemy.


I agree with your list excepting a couple points:

1) "he gets a save". I would caveat this with " if he desires one". The target of a spell always gets the option to waive the saving throw and voluntarily accept the effects of a spell regardless of it's source. Naturally, if he understands that he is being helped by a spell, he will naturally want to waive the saving throw. With emphasis on "if he understands that he is being helped" by someone "attacking" him.

2) Spells, when cast, are independent of changes in status of enemy/ally, imo. A caster that casts a beneficial spell on a target is betrayed by the target in the future doesn't suddenly have that effect dismissed if it says "ally" in the description. It requires the caster to spend a action to dismiss it or dispel it.

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The Sideromancer wrote:

Later in the environment chapter, under lava effects

CRB, Lave effects wrote:

Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of fire damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of fire damage per round.

Damage from lava continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during actual contact (that is, 1d6 or 10d6 points per round). Immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity or resistance to fire, lava or magma. A creature immune or resistant to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava (see Drowning).

Ok, that is direct lava contact, not a hot environment as a result of lava heating the air. That's where we are seeing the difference.

I think we should take a apples to apples (cold air vs hot air) comparison, imo.

Can any of you physics guys speak towards the rate of lava-hardening by being exposed to the colder air of the brown mold?

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The Sideromancer wrote:
Back checking the rules, although the mold is much colder than the air, lava itself would still be hotter than the mold is cold (3d6 nonlethal/round cold vs. 2d6 lethal/round fire). Unfortunately, we won't be getting lava boats this easily.

Can you cite your references toward the lethal/non lethal values? The ones I found on the PRD under environmental effects of lava-heated air were lethal/minute and the brown mold is non-lethal per round.

I want to be accurate if at all possible.

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KarlBob wrote:
Does the size-doubling effect of fire within 5 feet also extend to gases that are as hot as fire, but aren't currently combusting? If so, then a patch brought into a volcano should rapidly fill the caldera. (This is assuming that its cooling effect is instantaneous, and thus the mold cannot be heated to ignition temperature).

By raw, the answer to this is no. You have to have open combustion, not just super-heated air.

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The Sideromancer wrote:
Some of these discrepancies are showing up because we haven't established where on the volcano the brown mold is. If it's high up, we get closer to tornado-forming conditions than if it's on the floor

I'm envisioning floor/lava surface level.

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drbuzzard wrote:

OK, so we have to ignore both all convective effects and blackbody radiation effects, and yet somehow we have not kicked physics to the curb.


I fully don't expect the game to model physics much as too much will bog things down.

However you trying to apply physics to something which ignores physics is flat out silly. You are cherry picking what to ignore and what not to.

There are going to be massive convective forces working in any volcano. The outer area has to be cooler (there is solid rock there which sets a boundary condition). That means a flow of cooler air there into the center which is hotter.

The brown mold sphere says nothing about blocking wind, so the hot air will hit it and immediately cool down. This causes a huge localized pressure drop.

Temperature in the sphere is 32 F or 298 K(to make this easy).

Ambient laval temperature we will take to be 1000 C (1273 k)

As air hits the boundary, the volume drops from 10.5 m^3 per mole to .987 m^3. That is a huge volume change and will drive one hell of a lot of convection.

As you will already have substantial convective flows present in the volcano already, this will drastivally speed it up. The air will get sucked in, and have no place to go but up (yes, the air above will also be hot, but not as hot as to the sides and hence the volume change there will not be large enough to offset the volume change driving the flow in from the sides).

Awesome! So, we'd have a doughnut like air circulation effect. Would this develop into a cyclone in a teapot? How fast do you think the winds would end up being with just a single node of brown mold.

What would be the effect if the lava chamber were completely enclosed?

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This is what I call Schroedinger's Ally. If you attack them, they are no longer considered to be an ally. But for how long?

Does the guy you just attacked have to agree to be an ally before he can be considered an ally?

If you follow up the AoO with a spell that affects allies, can you include the guy that you just attacked?

The ally/enemy thing is one of the more problematic thing when it comes to spells/effects.

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Das Bier wrote:

The air coming up off a volcano is MOVING. It's not sitting's a very strong thermal updraft.

You're trying to throw a wet blanket on top of it of cold air. The two streams are going to slide around one another as they get lifted up in the air, and form a convection current. In the middle of them, more air is going to be falling down/getting sucked into the dome of cold...that stream of air coming down is going to be even stronger then the one going up because of the pressure differentials, and the compression of the hot air.

Gonna have to ask some aerodynamic guys to model this to get a real answer!

Agreed that we have that kind of effect. I just saw a youtube video with some kids, hot water and dry ice in a box with a fan (search for tornado science experiment) creating low pressure in the box itself. While the box was closed, the slits in the sides of the box allowed for a vortex to form when the fan was on -- the slits allowed for a sheering winds. But when a square was removed from the back of the box, the sheering effect was lost (with the same fan creating a low pressure effect in the system).

I'm not seeing where there would be the sheering effect necessary for a vortex to form.

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Das Bier wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
No, a convective cell will be set up at the boundary of the 30' radius sphere. You have a strong temperature gradient in the air, it will drive movement.
A 1000-2000 degree temperature differential might indeed be described as 'strong'. Tornadoes form off of 10-20 degree differentials!

We'd have essentially would be the eye of a hurricane type effect.

And while I believe you about tornadoes forming off of 10-20 degree differentials, the volume of air with that differential is much much greater.

We'd have a vortex, true. But I don't think you'd be able to get that level of wind speed off of a sphere of air 30' in radius.

I'd love to be proven wrong though, the visuals on this are awesome.

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Avoron wrote:
First of all, we're talking about a mold that is dropped onto lava. There is nowhere beneath it for cold air to fall through. Secondly, even if the mold was somehow floating in midair, I'm not sure the cold air would actually have time to fall out of the sphere for a significant distance before being reheated by the hot air beneath, or at the very least being replaced by the heated and pressurized air directly below it just waiting to rise. You'd get a fuzzier, less precise bottom edge to the sphere, but I definitely don't think you'd encounter any major vacuum forces.

Oh, agreed that you wouldn't have a level of wind speed equalling a tornado or anything like it. But the 30' radius wold give you a 30 foot hemisphere if it were dropped in initially. The air from the top of the hemisphere would push out the air at the sides into the area around the hemisphere which would draw in the hotter outside air. So, you'd have convection, but not any sort of true vacuum.

At least, imo.

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I was thinking about submitting it to Because Science on

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The cold air within the radius has absolutely no reason to exit the sphere into the higher-temperature surroundings.

The increased density of the cold air causes it to "fall", which is then replaced by the lesser dense hot air surrounding the sphere. The hot air around the sphere naturally rises, creating a vacuum effect that the colder air shifts into. Coriolis effect causes rotation.

Natural convection. Cold air out at the "floor" and hot air in from the ceiling.

I'm not convinced that you'd have tornado strength winds, though, considering the relatively small size of the volume of cold air, though.

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Sideromancer: Ah, I see (after doing some googling).

bulbaquil: Actually, the brown mold entry does say it "Brown mold feeds on warmth, drawing heat from anything around it."

So, there is a transfer of energy between the area outside the 30' lowered temperature radius and the surrounding room.

I'm re-thinking my thermal convection idea. If we follow standard (very "soft described") thermal models for air, the brown mold would create a low pressure area where the temperature is less than the surrounding lava pool, and the high pressure hot air created by the lava would pool in, cool down, and then move out as a result of differences of air pressure.

This would still not allow for the brown mold to spread itself, as there would be no open flame that would allow for it, but it would increase the area of solidified lava to something just a little bit bigger than the 30' radius of the temperature reduction.

The mold would still be able to maintain the 30' radius of 40 degree temperature, but there would still definitely be air movement and corresponding heat into the area of cold.

There is the question as to just how much lava heated air is enough to overwhelm the brown mold.

With a 15-1 ratio, one 5' patch of brown mold should be able to maintain itself against fifteen 5' squares of lava. Once you get to something larger lava-wise, the brown mold's temperature reduction would start to lessen, and you'd need more patches of brown mold to keep the pace.

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Imbicatus wrote:
There is also the fact that if the mold cooled enough of the lava to plug the volcano completely, your going to eventually have a massive eruption on the scale of Krakatoa that would likely destroy half the mountain, kill everything within a 300 mile radius, and cause tsunamis and a few years without a summer.

Well, that kind of depends on whether there are other outlets for the resulting pressure. If there are enough out-fissures in the volcano's base, you'd just have a greater outpouring of magma through those channels.


Actually, yes you are. If you assume you are maintaining a 30' ball of 10-40F temperature you have issues of boundary layer conduction and blackbody radiative heat transfer to consider. If the brown mold can maintain that temperature no matter what, it has to be either an infinite heat sink, or somehow there is a perfect adiabatic layer at that radius (which would prevent all radiation, including light from moving back and forth).

Well, in my original idea we would have convective heat exchange between the air above the lava and the air around the mold, but I was dissuaded of that idea.

Remember, that according to the equation of lethal to non-lethal damage, brown mold is something like 15x more powerful in it's heat sink effect than lava is in generating heat.

I'm not ultimately familiar with physics, but how would the heat sink prevent light from reflecting off the mold? Unless you think the photon particle would be cooled and no longer be visible because of it. (Is this it?) --

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Thornborn wrote:

For the sake of playability*, I'd like to present an alternate interpretation of the encounter with a pool of lava. Assuming a pool large enough and deep enough that we need only consider the mold's effects, and taking the ruling in Avoron's post where the mold makes an island...

The island begins to sink. Lava laps around the edges, enters the field of the mold, and is chilled to solidity, forming a lip of stone at the edge of the island. If not yet a buoyant unit, the island sinks further, the lip chills again, and again, until the island is a boat. The traditional bubbling of the lava wobbles things a bit, the lip builds a bit more, and we can either take on cargo/ballast/crew (slowly) or chuck it out to adjust our waterline.

Aside from propulsion, we're set to sail the Lava Sea. With more islands, we might build a catamaran. Perhaps powered by a heat exchange engine.

*Not in the 'every party should have three of these' sense, but in the 'SOME party should do this at least once', sense.

See, that's the thing. The viscosity of the lava coupled with the bowl like shape of the hardened lava, I believe, would create a displacement of the lava that would ensure buoyancy. You could make it even more buoyant by using stone shape to make it more triangular.

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JiCi wrote:

I might sound like a broken record, but... Vital Strike

We are playing a Rappan Athuk campaign and have a couple allied, fighter-leveled phase minotaurs that use this to pretty good effect.

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Ok, so beyond the initial spread, there wouldn't be any further spread due to the cold radius keeping the heat from the lava away from the brown mold.

It would be required to be "helped along" in order to fully harden any flow larger than the patch.

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^ Fantastic visuals.

However, the hardened rock may or may not sink depending on the viscosity of the molten rock as compared to the mass and displacement of the rock hardened by the brown mold.

Similar scenario:

What about having brown mold simply sitting on the edge of the lava pool? Would the brown mold growing cause the hardened lava below it to grow as well?

I like the idea of the cold damage directly lowering the environmental damage of the lava.

Due to nonlethal damage needing to surpass a creatures hit points twice in order to kill, Nonlethal damage can be described as being roughly 1/2 lethal damage.

So, extreme heat does 1d6 damage per 10 rounds (1 minute) -- or 2d6 per minute of nonlethal equivalent damage, whereas brown mold does 30d6 nonlethal per 10 rounds (1 minute), or 15d6 of equivalent lethal damage. Brown mold is "colder" than lava is "hot". By about 15x.

Would the change in air temperature push hot air into the brown mold's "air space" via convection? (Would this make physics happy)? Convection can also carrying open flame along with it, as fire follows wind.

This would cause the brown mold to spread at it's normal progression until the lava is essentially crusted over enough to no longer feel the heat from the lava through the hardened stone.

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Ravingdork wrote:
Numarak wrote:
I were the GM I would allow a Knowledge (Arcana) for letting know to the character that some Great Wyrms are able to cast Limited Wish, and thus they can cast a Plane Shift, so making the whole idea a 45.000 gp nonsense.

Hahaha. This actually happened to my group once. We spent a lot of time developing what we considered a fool proof plan: Trap the dragon in a lightless cave, then hit it with a clay jug full of green slime. Lacking abilities that created ice or fire, and being in a cave with no sunlight, we figured there was nothing it would be able to do to save itself.

The dragon in question took one round worth of constitution damage from the slime, basically had an "oh s+$$!" moment, and then cast limited wish to remove the stuff. It then proceeded to eat the party.

All that research and planning down the drain with a single get-out-of-jail-free card.

The only thing missing from this plan is an anti-magic field.

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An interesting "solution" to dealing with environments of extreme heat would potentially be to utilize things similar to brown mold or other dungeon hazards that alter the environment around them.

Has anyone worked out the fantasy physics of the interaction between brown mold and lava?

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The cage of a caging bomb admixture works the same way as a enclosed wall of force. The collective is not interrupted in any way.

The same applies to other casters. Their abilities work as long as they do not require line of effect, which the cage interrupts.

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