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Sunlord Thalachos

Quintain's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. 887 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Sunglasses.


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Typically, the class for which this feat is designed has some sort of class ability that transfers teamwork feats onto their animal companions without the need to qualify for the feat itself.


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Given the base cryptic class, I'd like to poll the community on just what it would take to apply an archetype that has the following changes applied:

Power Points/Day = 9 power level manifesting
Maximum Power Level Known = 9 power level manifesting
Power List = Cryptic + 1 more power list (psion/wilder or discipline)

All else remaining the same, would the change of pp/day, max power level, and adding a discipline or psion/wilder power list be worth 4 insights? (Comparison is number of tactician strategies to cryptic insights)

Is this viable?:
1) Replace 1 insight @ upper levels to add 1 power level to maximum power level known each time it is reached.
2) Reducing the disrupt pattern/enhanced disruption progression by 1/2 to add number of power points per day equal to a full manifester
3) Replace 1 insight to add a discipline powers or psion/wilder powers to the list of available powers that can learned.

The insight cost would be a replacement ability, not actual insights available to just anyone.

Comments?


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Boomerang Nebula wrote:

That is an interesting way of interpreting the spell. It makes teleport considerably more powerful than my own interpretation.

I think I would be okay with using your method for interplanetary teleportation but not for regular teleport or greater teleport.

Personally, I'm surprised pathfinder removed the "stable platform" from the older versions, which prevented aerial teleportations. That right there expanded the power of the teleport spell beyond what I am historically familiar with.


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Boomerang Nebula wrote:


The formula is below.

D = R * arccos(R/(R + h))

D is the approximate distance to the horizon, R is radius of the planet in question and h is height of the observer.

Some things that will effect this is how close the planet is to a perfect sphere and the opacity of the air.

A Wizard with a high enough intelligence and a Knowledge (Enginneering) skill would be able to derive the necessary knowledge enough to give an "objective" destination from his current point in space as a point of reference.

Just do the math, really. Once that is done, you have a fixed destination and layout of empty air is no different than the layout directly around the caster.


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I'm mostly with Diego on this, with the dice roll deciding the error factor, so I don't have to do any work. I decide whether there is an accurate point of reference based on the description given by the caster, and his in game knowledge. Although, I don't think that the caster needs to have seen the town from the perspective of the destination. Giving a vector and distance from a known point is enough.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
Boomerang Nebula wrote:


I don't allow teleportation to fluid locations like patches of sky or bodies of water. I figure you can't visualise something that is constantly changing and teleport is a powerful enough spell without that extra functionality.
I agree with Boomerang. Teleportation say "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination." A patch in the sky don't seem to fulfill that request.

Having a point of reference for the teleport is key. Giving a distance and vector (in 3d space) from your current location is sufficient, IMO.

"Over there" isn't.


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Boomerang Nebula wrote:

If you do a google search for "distance to the horizon" you will find sites that allow you to calculate the distance to the horizon from different heights.

I don't allow teleportation to fluid locations like patches of sky or bodies of water. I figure you can't visualise something that is constantly changing and teleport is a powerful enough spell without that extra functionality.

Distance to the horizon requires knowing the circumference of the planet you are on (if I remember my geometry right). As far as I know, that's unpublished.


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Since the ectoplasmic spell feat's text is ambiguous in it's application, I'm going to be opening up a FAQ request. Please clicky and let's get a ruling from the devs. This should be a simple one.

FAQ


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
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FAQ: Is the use of the ectoplasmic spell metamagic feat restricted to spells that target incorporeal/ethereal creatures directly, or can it be used with spells that affect incorporeal creatures only indirectly, such as walls of stone or summoning spells?


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Darksol,

I understand your reasoning, let me first say that.

However, let me put forth a different line of reasoning, as I believe that you and those that agree with you might be stretching things a bit (and in the same vein, I might be as well):

The metamagic ectoplasmic spell modifies the spell cast so that it affects incorporeal creatures.

Ectoplasmic Spell:

Benefit: An ectoplasmic spell has full effect against incorporeal or ethereal creatures.

Wall of Stone:

Effect stone wall whose area is up to one 5-ft. square/level (S)

How does a wall or other inanimate object affect a creature? By it's mere existence, if that existence cannot be ignored. A wall is a barrier that must be walked around, or otherwise dealt with if it is an impediment to our desires. The wall affects you by you having to interacting with it.

Now, Nothing in the ectoplasmic metamagic feat itself states that you are required to target creatures. Nor does it expressly restrict the metamagic feat from being used on just spells that target creatures. This is an interpretation/implementation of the phrase "spell has full effect on incorporeal/ethereal creatures"

What the feat does is make the spell effect *real* (or have the same effect upon) the incorporeal creature in question, as if it were corporeal, if it could otherwise ignore the spell due to it's incorporeal nature.

Examples:

An ectoplasmic wall of stone of any thickness less than 10' would prevent the incorporeal creature from being able to ignore it in the same way that a corporeal creature cannot ignore a wall of the same size.

The wall affects the incorporeal the same way it does a corporeal. A "ghost touch wall" so to speak.

If you use ectoplasmic metamagic feat on a summoned sword (say storm of blades), those summoned blades would affect the incorporeal the same way it does a corporeal. Whereas a standard storm of blades spell could be ignored due to the non-magical nature of the summoned blades (instantaneous conjuration is even able to make it through an anti-magic field).

Now, when it comes to fabricate. Fabricate makes one thing into another. But in this case the end goal is the same object, or perhaps a "masterwork" version of the same object, except now it is *real* to incorporeal creatures by virtue of the ectoplasmic feat being used with Fabricate.

As an aside, back in Old AD&D, there were often mundane items that had the effect of being barriers for incorporeal/ethereal creatures while being fully corporeal (plants, gorgon's blood in mortar, etc).

I'm finding these things missing in the current version of pathfinder. I think this (using fabricate + ectoplasmic spell metamagic) as returning those things, in principle, back to the game.


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QuidEst wrote:

Fabricate- turn materials into finished objects. Has no effect on creatures.

Ectoplasmic- spell has full effect on incorporeal/ethereal creatures, which is "none, creatures can't be transmuted by this".

So, by this you are stating that only spells that affect creatures can be modified by the ectoplasmic spell metamagic feat?


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Berinor wrote:
The effect of the spell is it creates a wall. The way that wall interacts with incorporeals isn't adjudicated by the spell - it's normal matter. If it were permanent duration I might feel differently, but there's no direct interaction between the spell and the creature, so ectoplasmic has no effect.

Fabricate doesn't "create a wall", it produces something from another thing.

A thing being a product of itself (X * 1 = X), I was thinking that the metamagic feat would alter the end product and make it's effect apply to incorporeal creatures.

It's instantaneous duration means that the end product is not dispellable.

The effect, really, is no different than a wall of stone + ectoplasmic spell feat -- other than the differences between wall of stone and fabricate, naturally.

Quote:

Then again...fabricate is instantaneous and isn't specifically meant to affect creatures (imagine fabricating weapons with innate ghost-touch! Ludicrous).

Actually, I'm not so sure that this idea is ludicrous. It seems pretty plausible actually.

The regular ghost touch enchant can be used for items that weren't constructed with fabricate and ectoplasmic spell, and this spell/feat combo can be used to create ghost touch items that are "non-magical".


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Can the ectoplasmic spell metamagic feat + fabricate alter an existing stone wall into a wall that is impassible to incorporeal creatures for the volume of the wall equal to the volume of the fabricate spell?


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Ravingdork wrote:

Putting it front and center at the top of an archway isn't in plain sight and in a prominent location?

It doesn't get much more prominent than that!

Also, my question had a lot less to do with whether the symbol would effect the PCs, but rather about whether or not they would have any chance at all of spotting it before they risked triggering it. To put it another way...

It's not in plain sight from at least one side of the enterance. In this case, I think it is fair to rule that this equates to no LOS, no LOE.

As a sense of fairness, you should always give the characters a chance at detecting a trap provided they have the requisite ability to do so.

If you are going to rule that they are indeed affected prior to a mundane perception check, then I would suggest that the trap spotter talent would be a suitable counter.


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Foot in the Grave:

If either body is killed while the power is in effect,
the other participant also dies when the power ends. If
one participant’s body becomes petrified, imprisoned
by temporal stasis or imprisonment, or incapacitated
in some other way, the other participant will be
incapacitated in that way when the power ends.

Can anyone provide an example/explain the incapacitation clause that applies "to the other participant".

If psion A manifests this on undead B, then psion A becomes undead psionicist B and undead B becomes undead A.

1) The incapacitated effect follows the mind: if the psion is incapacitated in a different body, he is still incapacitated when he returns to his body.

2) The incapacitation stays with the body: the psion, if incapacitated in the undead's body, returns to his regular body, and the undead is incapacitated at the end of the power.

3) The incapacitation backfires: The incapacitation effect is duplicated to the non-incapacitated individual when the power ends.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Quintain wrote:

Cast a heightened, quickened Daze cantrip, 5' step toward gunslinger

Follow up with channel energy 2x via the feat that allows for move action channels.

Rinse, repeat as needed.

Dead Gunslinger.

Daze cantrip wrote:
After a creature has been dazed by this spell, it is immune to the effects of this spell for 1 minute.

Ok, small hiccup.

quickened persistent hold person, would work though.

The idea is to prevent him from acting.

Have all the mooks cast hold person too...all in the same round if possible. Eventually he will miss a save.


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Cast a heightened, quickened Daze cantrip, 5' step toward gunslinger

Follow up with channel energy 2x via the feat that allows for move action channels.

Rinse, repeat as needed.

Dead Gunslinger.


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Joana wrote:

My RL group used to cast both darkness and light incorrectly, due, no doubt, to descriptions in the Drizzt books of drow "calling down a globe of darkness" over their enemies at will. (A favored tactic that had absolutely no rules backing at all was casting light "on the enemy's eyes" to blind him.)

The casting light to blind was a 1st/2nd Edition tactic.


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Give him a Goz mask and a eversmoking bottle.

Smoke != fog


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bbangerter wrote:

I'm not following you on this Quintain, and I don't think thewastedwalrus is saying this either. He is saying:

If you don't use your readied action before you take another action (such as an immediate or free that is allowed outside of turn) or before your next turn starts, then you lose the readied. But whether you use it or not, on your next actual turn you'd have your full actions - move to reload, standard to ready.

Ah, ok, my misreading of what he is saying. And, I agree.

However, what I am saying is that normally with rapid reload/heavy crossbow, you can attack 1x per round due to action economy. The restrictive reading of readied action means that you can only successfully use a readied action once every other round.


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Action economy says that you get one move action and one standard action.

If your ammo is expended, and you ready a standard action for the next round, you can't use a move action before your readied standard to reload. So, at best you can only ready an action with a heavy Crossbow and rapid reload every other round.

However, under my interpretation you can use your move action just prior to your readied action to fire with it. Easy peasy.


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thewastedwalrus wrote:


They aren't in conflict with each other, they both apply. You can only take your readied action before your next turn and before your next action.

So you can't reload your heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm to be used as a readied action, if you shot it last round?

Seems a bit overtly...restrictive.

Quote:


It seems to me that you should be allowed or it should be considered that the rest of your turn happens after your readied action occurs (assuming that you didn't already use a swift action/free action before you readied your standard action when it was your turn [no casting a swift magic missile then readied action then another swift action for example]).

Even by the overtly restrictive interpretation of our compatriots above, you are absolutely correct. You get the rest of your turn, just on a new initiative, after your readied action occurs.


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It means that once you study your opponent while in the stance and continue to fight him, you apply the extra damage for every attack you make, and you don't have to spend a swift action to do it on your turn.


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Bronsonfu wrote:

...

One last question on the readied action thing. Is is possible to make a swift action into an immediate action? I know that they have the same value in action economy. I'll give you an exact example now.

Playing a monk using Kirin style as well as kirin strike. Have already studied the opponent successfully so I want to now ready a standard action to attack the enemy if they cast a spell. They get their turn and they cast a spell so my readied action occurs and I successfully land the attack. What I really want to do now is apply the affect of kirin strike to gain the extra damage bonus but doing so consumes a swift action (something I don't have as stated in above posts). Could I instead use my immediate to apply the affect of kirin strike?

Is the only way to allow what I'm asking to do is to allow it through house ruling?

By RAW, you can't change a swift action into an immediate action, unless there are specific exceptions.

However, the swift action you are attempting is the identification step, and from there, (as I read it), you apply the damage to any strike regardless of when it happens. You don't have to use a swift action after each time you hit someone.


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bbangerter wrote:
Firebug wrote:


So, after your next action, you are going to take your readied action that says you that it must be taken before your next action?

Yeah, nothing in the text says you lose the readied action. You just no longer meet the conditions to take the readied action. Is an immediate/free action an action? It certainly is defined as one by the rulebook.

This is one way to read it, but it is a very narrow and strict reading of it. What you should actually be taking away from that sentence is "before your next turn", which would usually be when your next action comes up because most characters don't have immediate actions available to them, and really no one should ever say "talking causes you to lose your readied action" because it leads to silly results.

"I was going to attack you, but now I can't cause I screamed my battle cry before I started my attack."

So, yes, you can read the rules that way, but IMO it lacks understanding of intent. When its possible to read the rules two ways, always take the one that make more logical sense, even if the other way is more legalistically accurate.

Firebug, you are reading without context. Read the first quote you posted and then the second quote. The "action" referenced in the second statement is in reference to your normal action in your next turn.

Reading the rules so as to negate the utility of the readied action is...self-defeating.


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Firebug wrote:
You can't.
PRD wrote:
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
Also somewhat important:
PRD wrote:
Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
So if you decide to take a free action to talk, you took an action and cannot use your readied action.

There is nothing in this text that says you lose your readied action if you perform an action of a different type than the one you have readied.

Preparing an action is simply declaring what you will do under certain circumstances. This text states that you tell the GM what you are going to do, you aren't locked into doing only that action to the expense of all other action types.

Walking down a hallway (move action) and readying a standard action to respond to attacks is 100% valid.

To answer the OPs question: you still have all the action options open to you whenever they might occur except a standard action.

Walking down a hallway (move action) on your turn and readying a standard action to respond to attacks is 100% valid.

If no one triggers your readied action, you can't replace the readied action with a different standard action. But immediate actions are most certainly available. And taking an immediate action doesn't negate the readied action being available.


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The question posed is what can you do after your readied action has been triggered, not what you can do before.


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Love the latest installment. :)

One aside though, you have a reference to the astral deval in the 1st level magic resistance entry for the succubus.

Which I'm sure the succubus appreciates.


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Actually in our case, we do have an ability to see through stone. So, the question is still valid.


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If an incorporeal creature is attacking another incorporeal creatures that is inside a corporeal wall, does the wall give cover or just concealment? What if the wall can be seen through?


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GM 7thGate wrote:

Yeah, the base rules seem like they are very open to interpretation on this one. I was hoping there might be a FAQ somewhere I had missed.

Quintain, the action for triggering an AOO due to movement is "Moving out of a threatened square". You have to resolve the AOO before that happens or you wouldn't be able to make the attack if the person went out of range.

Also, how would a readied action to attack (trip, I assume) someone standing from prone keep them prone? The readied action definitely happens before the triggering event, when they are still prone on the ground.

Yes, it is moving out of a threatened square, and you get to attack. However, that attack cannot "interrupt" the full move action.

Example. Let's say our enemy moves from out of our reach to moving into our reach and from there one more square in, trying to get past us to attack our friend.

Your attack of opportunity doesn't intrinsically negate that movement. He doesn't "not move". What he does it stop moving where the attack happened. At best, an attack of opportunity can counter an action, or limit an action, if you have some sort of rider on the attack itself, such as re-tripping someone trying to stand up.

An interrupted action prevents that action from happening. Which is solely in the province of readied actions.

The only real time a readied action overlaps an attack of opportunity is when an enemy spellcaster provokes. In that case, the mechanics for readied action and attack of opportunity are the same -- as long as the action is the same.

However, in a readied standard action, you could put things like vital strike or other standard attack action based riders on the readied action that you cannot put on the attack of opportunity -- which is a "non-action" in the action economy list.

As one of the previous posters mentioned, there are multiple ways to resolve the resolution of readied action vs attack of opportunity.

Consistency would be the hallmark of how legitimate a way you resolve it.

You could just as easily have the combatants use competing dexterity checks to determine who goes first, similar as to how simultaneous initiative is resolved.

One note, however. A readied action does reset the initiative

Quote:


Also, how would a readied action to attack (trip, I assume) someone standing from prone keep them prone?

You wouldn't even need to do a trip action to keep the person prone on a readied action. The readied action intrinsically interrupts (definition: stops the progress of an activity or progress) the action of the enemy -- so, the enemy is prone and performing a move-equivalent action to stand up. The readied action interrupts the move-equivalent action, which results in the person remaining prone.

In the case of the attack of opportunity, the AoO doesn't stop the person from standing, it just allows for a strike due to the enemy leaving itself open to attack. You have to have the trip combat maneuver available to use in order to have the person go from prone to standing to prone again.

There is a lot of overlap when it comes to readied actions that are attacks and attacks of opportunity, granted. But readied actions are far more versatile, and powerful -- allowing things like vital strikes, etc as riders, which aren't possible with attacks of opportunity.

Here's the relevant text that shows readied > AoO

Attack of Opportunity wrote:

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

Readied Action wrote:


You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.[/b]

You will note the lack of text stating that an attack of opportunity "occurs just before the action that triggers it". An AoO is instead resolved immediately upon the provocation occurring.

Pre-emption vs reaction.


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Irontruth wrote:
Quintain wrote:
The fact that a readied action can interrupt the action that it is based on, whereas an attack of opportunity cannot.
AoO interrupt the action as well. If you move (triggering the AoO), you don't complete the move before the AoO, the AoO happens first.

No, you don't interrupt or invalidate the move action, you just stop it prematurely before the provoking creature reaches his destination. These are different things.

Interruption prevents the action from happening at all.

Just like an attack of opportunity based off of someone standing from prone doesn't prevent the person from standing, whereas a readied action to attack someone that is standing from prone would keep them prone.

Quote:


I do it the same way, but someone else wanting to do it in initiative order also wouldn't be wrong.

Given that a readied action will reset initiative and an attack of opportunity does not, I would say that using initiative as a method of resolving the order of near simultaneous actions isn't the best way of doing it.


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The fact that a readied action can interrupt the action that it is based on, whereas an attack of opportunity cannot.


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GinoA:

You are making up to 5 ranged attacks, so if you are in a position to do so, you provoke 5 times.

It does not take a standard action to fling the sword. The casting time is 1 standard action with a duratio of instantaneous, so the casting and the launching of the swords is all in the same single standard action.

This is no different than a archer having a full attack action firing his bow while engaged in melee insofar as number of attacks of opportunity they are provoking.


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If Event A is being responded to by a readied action and Event A also provokes an attack of opportunity, the readied action does first.

If the readied action invalidates Event A, Event A never happens so it cannot provoke an Attack of AoO.

Its better to think of an Attack of Opportunity as a consequence of certain actions, wheras Readied actions are in preparation for certain actions and naturally come first.

However, you have to be certain of whether the readied action actually invalidates the action or prevents it.

As an example, a counterspell is a readied action that would prevent the casting of a specific spell, but not prevent the casting of the spell itself, which provokes attacks of opportunity.


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Link2000 wrote:

Okay, does that mean I should skip it all together?

I don't want to be problematic, I just thought bouncing arrows of walls would be fun.

It doesn't mean anything other than I wouldn't expect immediate acceptance of your idea.

Ask if the feat applies to bows, to see if you can take it.


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CBDunkerson wrote:
kadance wrote:
The feat makes no mention of firearms
"You can ricochet a firearm shot off the wall and still hit your target."

That is fluff text. Although that does point strongly to RAI.


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Can anyone point me to where the rules are for non-spell based touch attacks? I'm specifically referring to using something like contact poison (while immune like an alchemist) or acid or some other alchemical attack that is delivered by contact?

Is it delivered by the touch attack mechanic? If not, what mechanic is it?

If you have the alchemical attack, and it is delivered by touch attack, do you threaten squares around you similar to a spell?


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


Wrong again.

Let's take the Touch Spell out of the equation for a moment. Let's say you want to punch the guy. Normally, that's an Unarmed Attack. And Unarmed Attacks cannot be done as an Attack of Opportunity, and plus they provoke one if you make it so. Improved Unarmed Strike or some other specific ability that says so overrides those normal rules, allowing you to make AoOs with them and making them not provoke when you perform them.

Now, ignore the Unarmed Attacks for a moment. You have a Touch Spell, let's say Shocking Grasp. The rules say that delivering a Touch Spell is an Armed Attack, and therefore when you perform a Touch Attack with the Shocking Grasp spell cast, it can be done as an Attack of Opportunity, and doesn't provoke for performing it. The rules also say that if you perform an attack successfully, such as an Unarmed Strike or Claw Attack, the spell discharges into the target that you hit.

Keep in mind that in those instances, you follow the normal rules set by the attack condition, which the portion you quoted re-iterates; that is, if you perform an Unarmed Strike without an Improved Unarmed Strike feat or similar ability, the Unarmed Strike you perform to deliver the spell provokes, and cannot be made to provoke.

Also, you glossed over...

I wasn't attempting to gloss over anything, only seeking clarificaiton, as it seems convoluted to think that if you are holding the charge of a spell, you threaten (as far as responding to AoO provocations is concerned) if and only if you touch only to deliver the spell, but not threaten (and cannot respond to AoO provocations) if you try to punch someone, which also delivers the spell.

The end result of delivering the spell to it's target is met either way.


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Ok, so the basic conclusion of all of this tangential stuff is this:

If you cast a touch attack spell, you can make a touch attack as if you were armed. As in, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing your touch attack.

However, despite the fact that you can make a touch attack as if you were armed, you are not considered to be armed while holding the charge, and because you aren't considered to be armed, you do not threaten the squares around you, and therefore cannot perform attacks of opportunity yourself with your touch attack spell.

... Unless you use improved unarmed strike or natural weapons (which allow for being armed and therefore can threaten).

Am I getting this straight?


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

You're reading it wrong. The text says that you aren't considered armed, and you provoke Attacks of Opportunity as normal, because the game presumes you're making an Unarmed Strike, and uses those base rules.

Similarly, if you have Improved Unarmed Strike, you apply those benefits to that attack.

Right, but in our scenario, the caster wants to make an attack of opportunity on an ally using a spell that has been held.

So, if caster is not considered to be armed, then he doesn't threaten the squares around him, and if he doesn't threaten the squares around him, he can't make an attack of opportunity, on an ally or enemy.


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Quote:

Holding the Charge: ... Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

I was re-reading the text for holding the charge. If I read the bolded part of the text is true, then you can't even use a held charge in an attack of opportunity, as you do not threaten while unarmed-unarmed.

A held charge attack is considered to be unarmed-unarmed, and while unarmed-unarmed, you don't threaten the squares around you.

The only way you can make an attack of opportunity with a held-charge spell is if you are armed-unarmed (i.e improved unarmed strike).

Am I reading this right?


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Actually, the barbarian can touch the Cleric and the spell will be delivered. Same result.


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Diego Rossi wrote:


Most, but not all spells are "independent" from the a creature status after they have been cast.

An example of a spell where the friend/foe status matter Monster summoning if the summoned creature is something with which you can't communicate.

The bear you have summoned will attack the enemies. Probably the enemy closest to its location, unless you use handle animal or speak with animals when you summon it. Who are your enemies isn't set the moment in which you cast the spell or it wouldn't attack enemies that where hidden when he was summoned, nor it would fight for you if you...

I agree, excepting that I would think that a summoned creature would key off your actions, so if you attack an ally, then the creature would naturally think him an enemy and follow suit.

However, this is only an exception because the "spell effect" is a creature of a certain amount of independent intelligence.

Quote:


As any touch spell can be delivered this way we are speaking of a serious advantage.

It's really a moot point, because in the same situation, an active ally that moves through an adjacent square of our touch-spell caster could reach out an touch the caster as a free action and receive the touch spell anyway. It doesn't even take an attack roll.

Quote:


If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.

The only time this even comes into play is when the ally doing the provoking is not fully in control -- in which case, the caster would indeed have to treat the individual as an enemy in full and the former ally would treat the caster as an enemy as well.


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Ckorik,

The cavern we were in was wider than the 20' radius, but not higher.

In this case, the torches "dim light" radius does not reach past the darkness area of effect.


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Here are all the relevant FAQs for Darkness:

Sunrods:
Darkness: Can adding additional sunrods to the area of the spell increase the light level?
No, sunrods can never increase the light level of an area of darkness because they are not magical sources of light. In such an area, it automatically defaults to the ambient natural light level (the light level from natural sources, such as the sun, moon, and stars—not torches, campfires, light spells, and so on), and then reduces it one step.

Non Magical Light Sources:
Darkness: Can a nonmagical light source increase the light level within the area of darkness if the light source is outside the spell's area?
No. Nonmagical light sources do not increase the light level within the spell's area, regardless of whether the light source is in the area or outside the area.

Non Magical Light Sources through Darkness:
Darkness: Can I see light sources through an area of darkness?
No. If a darkness spell reduces the light in the area to actual darkness (or supernatural darkness, if using a more powerful spell), you can't see through the darkness into what is beyond it.

Now, here's the scenario:

If someone with regular 60' darkvision is trying to find enemies that are on the opposite side of an area of Darkness and outside the radius of the darkvision, but are carrying torches.

Can the creature with darkvision see the enemy carrying the torches?


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Diego Rossi wrote:


If you are taking an AoO against ally you treat him as an enemy.
So:
- doing that break invisibility and sanctyary 8and similar spells or effects);
- touching him require a to hit;
- he get a save;
- tripping him require a successful Combat Maneuver;
- his status for several spells casted by you change;
- similarly your status for several spells casted by him change;
- some allied creature (as an example summoned monsters) will see you as a enemy and could attack you.

Essentially you are taking an action that change your status from ally to enemy.

Diego,

I agree with your list excepting a couple points:

1) "he gets a save". I would caveat this with " if he desires one". The target of a spell always gets the option to waive the saving throw and voluntarily accept the effects of a spell regardless of it's source. Naturally, if he understands that he is being helped by a spell, he will naturally want to waive the saving throw. With emphasis on "if he understands that he is being helped" by someone "attacking" him.

2) Spells, when cast, are independent of changes in status of enemy/ally, imo. A caster that casts a beneficial spell on a target is betrayed by the target in the future doesn't suddenly have that effect dismissed if it says "ally" in the description. It requires the caster to spend a action to dismiss it or dispel it.


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The Sideromancer wrote:

Later in the environment chapter, under lava effects

CRB, Lave effects wrote:

Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of fire damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of fire damage per round.

Damage from lava continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during actual contact (that is, 1d6 or 10d6 points per round). Immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity or resistance to fire, lava or magma. A creature immune or resistant to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava (see Drowning).

Ok, that is direct lava contact, not a hot environment as a result of lava heating the air. That's where we are seeing the difference.

I think we should take a apples to apples (cold air vs hot air) comparison, imo.

Can any of you physics guys speak towards the rate of lava-hardening by being exposed to the colder air of the brown mold?


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The Sideromancer wrote:
Back checking the rules, although the mold is much colder than the air, lava itself would still be hotter than the mold is cold (3d6 nonlethal/round cold vs. 2d6 lethal/round fire). Unfortunately, we won't be getting lava boats this easily.

Can you cite your references toward the lethal/non lethal values? The ones I found on the PRD under environmental effects of lava-heated air were lethal/minute and the brown mold is non-lethal per round.

I want to be accurate if at all possible.

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