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Sunlord Thalachos

Quintain's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. 1,137 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Air0r wrote:
How does Attuned Psicrystal (Psion: Shaper) work? What are it's limits?

From what I get from that ability, it allows the manifester to alter the effect of a power after the fact, during it's normal duration.

So, if you choose, Astral Construct, you can change one of the menu choices you took when you initially manifested the power with another valid option, as long as it occurs during the duration of the Astral Construct power.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Sideromancer wrote:
Quintain wrote:

No. The spell transfers damage caused by you to yourself and applies an equal amount to another creature. If you follow the rules of symmetry, you would heal your target, not damage him.

So target an ally and have the best 1st-level heal spell in the game.

Not necessarily.

In Pathfinder, negative energy doesn't automatically heal undead as well as harm the living.

Look at how clerical channel energy works for negative energy:

Channeled Negative energy used to harm the living does not heal undead, the negative energy must be used to heal the undead, and in that case, does not harm the living.

It doesn't do both at once.

By that same token, this spell is designed to harm the living with negative energy, so it could quite easily be interpreted to do nothing to undead, as the effect the negative energy on undead is not described in the spell at all.

A good cleric (or one who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or one who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures.

The difference between this an an inflict spell is that the effect that an inflict spell has on undead is described in the spell.

The spell description only says that it transfers harm done. It says nothing in regard to transferring healing.

Given it's level of power, I think focusing overmuch on the "negative energy" aspect of the spell is incorrect.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No. The spell transfers damage caused by you to yourself and applies an equal amount to another creature. If you follow the rules of symmetry, you would heal your target, not damage him.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This is a fantastic release for your friendly psicrystal. 5 stars. Highly recommended.

I do, however, have some questions about the details of the Superior Psicrystal Feat:

Can this feat be taken multiple times? Can the effects stack on a single psicrystal? (An attuned crystalline creature would be a great "animal" companion).

For the tactician/vitalist superior attuned psicrystals being able to add things to the collective they are touching -- what happens if the creature being added is unwilling?

For the crystalline creature, is this combinable with a true animal companion -- perhaps a druid/psion multiclass -- if so, what takes precedence, the psicrystal or animal companion (example: hit points, HD, feats, etc)?

Given the superior psicrystal feat being as good as it is, can a manifester have more than one psicrystal (at the expense of 4 feats -- psicrystal affinity, superior psicrystal doubled), you'd get a psicrystal weapon as well as a crystalline creature companion.

There are some seriously awesome possibilities with this expansion.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
JonathonWilder wrote:
Funny thing, I just sent out a question involving Bard's Gate since it was out of stock on the main site, didn't realize there was a kickstarter going for it. I very much want to get a color hardcover of the book, even if it does cost a $100 it is well worth the price... the map is surprisingly expensive though, more then the cost of the book.

Will there be opportunity to purchase the map outside of the kickstarter?

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The DC calculation is basically "standard notation". If the power allows no saving throw ignore it for the purposes of saves.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Had an interesting discussion with my GM last night at game.

When it comes to multiple group combats, is there any way for a combatant to gain "surprise" (basically cause their enemies to be flat-footed to their attacks) after initiative has been rolled between the two initial groups without the use of stealth, if all combat participants have already acted?

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just use adamantine arrows, you ignore 20 points of hardness every time you shoot.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ultimately what was proposed was shot down for a different reason - incorporeal creates can't be grappled

The ectoplasmic spell metamagic feat makes a spell that would not otherwise effect a incorporeal creature have full effect.

Which means their immunities from being incorporeal do not apply. They can be grappled by things that affect incorporeal creatures.

Ghost touch nets work 100% against incorporeal creatures, as do mancatchers, etc.

The tentacles from a incorporeal black tentacles would have 100% affect against an incorporeal creatures.

Ectoplasmic wall of stone is impenetrable to incorporeal creatures.

There is some dispute with fabricate, however. Fabricate doesn't actually create things, so could not infuse a product with ghost touch ability.

An ectoplasmic spell that actually creates permanent base components (steel for a sword, etc) is what you are looking for to create the base components to be used in a fabricate.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The target could also use a move action to remove the blindness, another move action to reach you, but then wouldn't be able to attack.

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Purple Dragon Knight wrote: even better limitation would be that the simulacrum of a low CR monster with over the top spell-like abilities should not be able to replicate these abilities. Aboleth is CR 7 with Dominate Monster (a 9th level spell)

The problem with this is that with this kind of rule, you get table variation. If a sim that is created by a 17th level wizard (who already will have wish 1x/day) is entirely reasonable. One created by a wizard who does not, isn't, or one created via a sim scroll.

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Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
You guys are all aware you can't heal this thing's hit points, right? (requires costly repair in a lab... you can't repair it via cure spells or repair construct...)
How many HP do infinite wishes from an Efreeti simulacrum deplete? How many HP per day does a simulacrum with a True Resurrection scroll lose while it waits to use the scroll if its creator hasn't checked in within 30 days? How does the restriction on healing do anything to limit simulacrums of creatures that have Fast Healing or Regeneration? How many of the actual game balance issues with simulacrums are you familiar with?

I think the Efreeti problem is not necessarily due to the simularcrum spell, but due to the fact that it's only 10 HD, yet is able to cast a wish.

Perhaps a good general limitation would be that the duplicate created cannot use spell like abilities if the caster of the simulacrum spell is not of the required level to cast the equivalent spell himself.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Refer back to my original example. Do you really think it's okay to have players get inside knowledge on Otto the Grumpy merely by making a simulacrum of him? And does the concept of an illusionist really ride so heavily on this spell?

I've never seen the Simulacrum spell being interpreted to give character specific knowledge by making a simulacrum of him.

Spellcasting and racial stuff, yeah, knowledge of where his lair is (as an example), no.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
GM 7thGate wrote:

I would add that, in order for the simulacrum to have the spell like or spell casting abilities of the original creature, the caster must supply an additional value of ruby dust equal to the cost to create a command word magical item with the spell like or spell casting ability desired, with the no space limit modifier, and requiring the caster to be able to cast the spells in question. Thus, a Genie to give you 3 wishes a day would cost:

10 HD: 5000 GP
Command Word Wish, 3x/Day, no Slot: 1800 * 9 * 17 * 0.6 * 2 = 330480 GP
Material Component x50: 1250000 GP
Total: 1.58548 Million GP

Which seems like a much closer price to the value of what you're actually getting. Basically, you get something that should be priced at 1.5 millionish GP for 5000 by the base rules; any violation of the wealth by level guidelines that flagrant is going to shred game balance fast. It would still leave it as useful for impersonating people, creating mundane bodyguards and such, but would prevent (or at least correctly cost) most of the really abusive things you can do with it.

This doesn't fix the problem entirely, but it should get close enough to make the spell much, much closer to fair. I would flavor the change by stating that imbuing such powerful magics into the simulacrum takes the large amount of ruby dust to hold the magical energy to power it.

This is an interesting solution. Given that wizards/alchemists are the ones to create simulacrums for the most part, how would you work with creatures that cast spells/SLAs as a cleric?

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Cavall wrote:

I think suicide is one thing but the DM clearly wants something special here.

So here's my suggestion. Play up the hunger. Play up the fact it's gnawing at you. Demanding you take a life to live.

Then go to the church. Pray before your deity. And say "if there is a life to premeditate to kill, let it be this one. You need to kill to live, I give you only death."

Then kill yourself WITH the power.

Because that's really the secret isn't it. That you end something by killing it with itself. Just like the black blade was the focus of its own redemption, so shall you use your corruption to end itself.

This should allow a full restoration of self. And if it doesn't, you still did the right thing and died a hero.

Don't just commit suicide (premeditated murder if there ever was) use it to kill itself.

This is a fantastic idea.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Quintain wrote:
Given it's current version and general acknowledgement as being broken/abusable, what changes would you implement to bring it back into balance?

1. Eliminate all spell like abilities, spellcasting abilities, and supernatural powers.

2. Require that an actual piece of the original creature be used in it's making.

The main use my wizard makes of his simulacrum, is to answer the front door, and make appointments.

I would say that this would be a good modification for a lesser simulacrum spell. Definitely not a higher level one.

It would make the spell, one of it's primary uses is subterfuge, completely useless when duplicating magic-using creatures.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If you have already fallen, then this might be a way to get your paladinhood back.

Have the cleric hit you with an atonement, then "Do the 8th".

Make sure you have a rez handy.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Madokar Valortouched wrote:
Personally, I feel my best bet would be to fall on my blade. Like how Iomedae convinced the Black Prince to do in the Eighth Act of Iomedae.

Having just read this, this sounds like exactly what needs to be done. Just be sure to play it up.

And arrange for a resurrection beforehand.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Given your description of the corruptions, it sounds like the GM is going with a storyline like "lose something important, restore it (potentially at great cost), and come out ahead.

Given that Evil Outsiders and other enemies in combat don't activate the "Premeditated Murder Healing", I'm not sure how you would actually murder someone, or is there some other requirement I'm missing.

Has the magus revealed any of the information he gleaned from his ritual?

Given your corruption, you basically have a few options:

1) Die via the corruption (and maybe get resurrected) without succumbing to the murder hobo urge -- this might be your best option.
2) Succumb to the corruption, go on a murder hobo killing spree, atone and get your paladinhood back (somehow).
3) Fall, embrace your falling and become some sort of anti-paladin.
4) You could run with the Premeditated Murder part of the scenario and use Detect Evil and Smite as "judge and jury" and essentially go on a purge of all evil "innocent" creatures in the land.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Madokar Valortouched wrote:

Already retrained for Golden Legion's Staying Blade. Made a sap for myself. And I'm going to try and get Divine Communion for my lvl. 11 feat to boot.
Madokar Valortouched wrote:
After the Magus performed the ritual to get his Black Blade back, he was freed of the corruption, his Black Blade became a White Blade, and the Sword got a better disposition as a result. The Magus also has gleaned some knowledge about the corruptions by performing the ritual.

It sounds like the corruptions are tied in some fashion to the class abilities. What distinguishes your paladin from others (background/roleplaying or mechanically)?

Did your Paladin actually fall from the situation last time, or were you able to retain being a Paladin/make atonement?

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Take that feat I suggested in the previous thread. Retrain if needed (only takes a week). If you are not under something else's control. That feat will prevent you from ever killing anything intelligent that isn't destroyed at 0 hit points.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You are better off probably diverting a local stream/river via irrigation.

Or have a higher level spellcaster use weather control spells.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Given it's current version and general acknowledgement as being broken/abusable, what changes would you implement to bring it back into balance?

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Halek wrote:
If antipaladin counts as an archetype of a paladin wouldnt you be able to use it without the UMD? A hospitaler paladin is still a paladin. An antipaladin is still a paladin. No UMD required.

You may have a point here. While touch of corruption does say that it is able to be modified by la y on hands specific feats. Given it is the same effect (modifying a class ability) modified by different things, I dont see any reason why it shouldn't.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That seems to be pretty definitive. Use UMD and go for it.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If your second quote above makes Anti-paladins just "Chaotic Evil Paladins per an archetype", then you could use UMD to emulate a class feature, and use it.

But "operates exactly as a base class" and "being a base class" aren't synonymous.

I'd look for a more definitive statement, personally.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It's not having the class feature that is the problem. It's that the bracers are restricted to being used by a certain class.

So you'd have to use UMD to simulate being a paladin first, which I don't believe is possible. The restriction isn't "those having lay on hands", it's restricted to paladins only.

These bracers have similiar text to a holy avenger, which is also restricted by class.

So, while I think you may be able to convince a GM that emulating a class feature might work, by RAW, it's not possible.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Create a few lawful good simulacrum goblin adults of various classes and have them raise the orphaned goblin babies, train them. Then use the raised goblin babies as shock troops against the forces of evil.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

By Raw, no. Despite their same similarities, an anti-paladin is not a paladin, any more than a druid is the same as a cleric.

The operative clause is: "When worn by a paladin".

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So, anyway, getting back to the task at hand.

Our best combination of Manifester level increase is:

Wilder Level 20: 20 ML
Wild Surge: +6 ML (Perfect Surge +10)
Surge Crystal (standard): +3 ML (stacks with wild surge)
29 ML (for all spells)

Temporary/Limited Bonuses:
+1 ML (Setting Stone of Invigoration) - for 10 minutes
+1 ML (Trait bonus for 1 Power)
Metaconcert gives +5 Standard, but fully augmenting the power (with Setting stone, Trait, Perfect Surge, and Surge Crystal) allows for up to +18 ML requiring 18 psionic creatures able to provide PP to the Metaconcert Pool.

Equaling Max ML of 42:
-- Explanation: Surge Crystal and Setting Stone of Invigoration are the only ML bonuses outside the concert able to be used (+4 total). 18 psionic creatues + +4 for Items = 22 ML bonuses.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As it is. If you're gonna try and break through the barriers between truth & sanity, at least show the homework on it instead of giving impressions like this, yeah? Consider it a personal favor.

PoK: Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, there are some peoples minds that you simply cannot change. I refuse to even put forth the effort to try to do something so futile.

But as a personal favor, I'll attempt to be as accurate as possible.

If someone finds an error in my concept or math, please post.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Prince of Knives wrote:
Quintain wrote:

Along the same theme of this thread, I'd like to see if the community can come up with the highest Manifester level possible.

Given 20th level Psion: 20
Wild Surge: +6
Overchannel +3

How in God's name are you Wild Surging with 20 levels of Psion and zero levels of Wilder?

I'm not, really. I'm simply assuming 20 levels of manifester and using whatever class abilities are available. If that requires 20 levels of psion, or 20 levels of wilder, it doesn't really matter for the task at hand.

A scaled up surge crystal would do the trick, however.

Interestingly a wild surge from a level 20 wilder + standard/scaled up surge crystal can give +12 ML.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A Paladin can gain powers from being the epitome of Lawful Good, but in the case of a Paladin of a specific god their powers do in fact come from that god. That's why they have an altered Paladin code based upon their deities ideals. Also it's generally accepted that their deity's code replaces the default Paladin code.

I, initially, thought the same way myself. And personally, I prefer it this way -- it makes much more sense that all paladins should have to worship a deity and follow those edicts and not the "generic paladin code". It is much more nuanced that way, and ultimately more fun.

However, by RAW (at least as it was demonstrated to me in prior threads), that the Paladin getting his powers from Law and Good is not changed by him worshiping a deity. And where the code and deific edicts contradict, he has to follow the code.

At least that is according to RAW. -- I'm more than willing to play it as Deity-specific Paladins, myself. I would love this.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

... There are plenty of examples of definitive Lawful Good characters opposing the established law. Such as whenever Superman or Captain America have to fight against a government program because it clashes with their ideals.

I have said repeatedly that Lawful Good characters can and should oppose unjust laws.

However, lawful good character can and should oppose the law within the confines of the law, in order maximize good for all concerned.

(Here's where you usually stop reading...)

Now, there are measures that a lawful good individual can oppose the law outside the law, and all are lawful in nature:

One is insurrection/rebellion - a declared rebellion is very much a lawful thing. (See the War for Independence).

The other is letters of marque -- again, getting permission from a higher authority to wage war. Joining an army or small group tasked with bringing down a foreign government -- very lawful.

There are numerous ways for lawful goods to counter unjust laws. You simply need to use your imagination and understand that you (as a PC) do not live in a vacuum. Nor are they an authority unto themselves.

Following the Paladin code or the code of their God is all fine and dandy, but the paladin code says to respect legitimate autority -- this part cannot be hand waved or decided by the paladin himself.

A paladin deciding for himself what is and is not a legitimate authority is along the same lines as to whether he commits an evil act or not. -- No one would ever think that the paladin gets to decide this. It's ridiculously abusable.

In order to be workable, the idea of legitimate authority has to come from an objective source. And that objective source is the law, which the paladin is not above.

A Paladin, unlike a superhero cannot be a vigilante, unless he is given special dispensation from the powers-that-be.


The code he follows defines what authority Is truly legitimate.

Ok, then, show me this list of Golarion specific legitimate authorities. Thanks.


Source for your definition of 'respecting the law of everywhere you travel"?

The Paladin code. Laws by definition, come from legitimate authority...otherwise they aren't laws.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Bloodrealm wrote:

Can we get this thread locked to prevent Quintain from reviving it with his constant s!!+posting?

I find your tears delicious.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

now the counter to this subjective morality argument is an absolute morality where there is only one good choice but if this was the way for pathfinder all LG deities would have the same codes all NG would have the same codes and etc. so it makes me tend to think that the deities version of good varies from one to the next as well..

The counter to subjective morality is indeed absolute morality which is what D&D (and to an extend Pathfinder -- although this is being lost) was based on, but I disagree that this would mean that all LG deities would have the same code.

They might agree on the absolutes of the LG code, but would stress different aspects of how it implemented based on their portfolios.

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That's basically a condensed version of what I have been trying to get across. To a LG Paladin, Law is on the same level as Good. For only through adherence to the law is maximum good achieved. A LG Paladin would not forment anarchy even if the end result is a minor "good".

Anarchy ensures the suffering of the weakest, which the Paladin is pledged to protect.

I also reject the idea that the paladin can decide for himself what is and is not a "legitimate authority". If that were the case, then that clause of the paladin code would be essentially meaningless.

A Paladin cannot sit in judgment or judge his own actions as following the code or not for himself -- which is what deciding for yourself what is and is not a legitimate authority really is.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Fight to abolish laws THEY deem unjust. In case you don't know unjust is not fair. So fairness DOES matter, and there is such a thing called fairness.

Unjust and unfair are not the same thing. Unjust means you get two different results from the same situation applied to two different people within the confines of the law.

Unfair is a child's concept. It what they cry when they don't get what they want -- it has nothing to do with legalities.

That's only for the Abadaran faith. It's not a tenet in any other paladin code. So all other paladin orders are not beholden to act that way.

Agreed, but it is an example of lawful and good behavior, which is what I am talking about.


No, I do not. My employer prohibits concealed carry on the work site. Furthermore, I was never trained in pistols, and it's very hard to carry concealed a rifle.

Ok, fair enough.

Reciprocity, as it is applied to concealed carry, means that one legal jurisdiction recognizes the permit as issued in another jurisdiction. In the U.S. today, not all states recognize the permit of another state, despite the 2nd amendment. Some feel that this is not fair, some do not. Either way, it is the way the system currently works.

Hypothetically let's say that you have a concealed carry permit -- if you life in State A, and State C recognizes your permit, but State B does not, what does that mean when travelling between State A and State C but crossing State B?

It means if you carry your firearm while in State B, you are now acting criminally (contrary to the law as established in State B, however "unfair"). You can and will be arrested. Even if you use your firearm to protect yourself or another (completely legal and good activity) from someone trying to kill you.

The same concept (in reverse) applies to our Paladin travelling in lands that have legalized slavery. It may be illegal in his lands and the lands that are his ultimate destination, but it is legal there. So, if he tries to act to prevent someone from engaging in completely legal activity, he is usurping the authority of the state.

That is a violation of the Paladin code. He will be required to atone.

Now, as I have said earlier, and this bears repeating -- this does NOT mean that he automatically falls. A single act that is otherwise good (releasing slaves) won't mean much of a punishment -- but it is still a violation of the code, however small, and he will need to atone. If he does not, and continues to violate the code freeing slaves, he will fall...eventually, or at the very least get warnings from "Law" of "Law and Good" to atone before he falls.

Anyway, it's movie night with my daughter. I'll check back in the morning.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Envall wrote:

Is community service slavery?

State takes over your life and forces you to work for it for no pay.

If it is in recompense for some criminal behavior, it is technically not slavery, but restitution. You are paying back to the community the equivalent in value of which you damaged/destroyed.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
John Napier 698 wrote:
Quite so. I have never studied Law. I am a former soldier, a current Security Guard, and a student of Computer Science. If you expect me to understand legal definitions, you'll have to use plain English. Thank you in advance.

Ok, since you are the only one responding. Do you have a concealed carry permit for your state (commercial or individual)?

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ok, the one part of Adabar's Code that I want to point out that reinforces what I am talking about:

... and if a system is fundamentally flawed, I will work to aid citizens by reforming or replacing it.

It is probably pretty obvious that everyone thinks that legalized slavery falls under the heading of "fundamentally flawed".

Now, if a paladin respects legitimate authority, and at the same time recognizes that it is fundamentally flawed, he must work to aid it's citizens by reforming or replacing it.

Note that it does not give cart blanche authority to take what is opposite of the law into his hands and smite all who cross his path.

There are limitations to his actions based on the code.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A Dictator is legitimate. Anything in power is legitimate.


conforming to the law or to rules.

able to be defended with logic or justification; valid.

It's legitimate that the NSA spies in everyone on the world. It's legitimate that women are inferior to men in certain religions.

Legitimacy is imposed by those in powers. It's nothing special, nor divine.

Absolutely correct.


A Paladin doesn't care who rules. There could be a demon ruling for all she cares, as long as the laws are fair and it's in the benefit of the society.

Fairness is what gives legitimacy for a Paladin, not that someone wrote a rule.

Absolutely wrong. This is contrary to what "respecting legitimate authority" means. Respecting authority means you acknowledge that the dictates of the rulers of the land hold sway regardless of whether you agree or not.

Now, this doesn't mean you are completely hamstrung. If your church (aka authority) is at war with said ruler, you are under no compunction to obey said laws -- smite away.

There is no such thing as "fairness". That is so subjective as to be meaningless.


I am not a lawyer, so I can only give the definition found in my dictionary. reciprocity: give in return. Do you advocate t*t-for-t*t revenge?

Ok, so that answer is no, you aren't familiar with it. I'll explain when others give their answer.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

link for adabar's code?

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
John Napier 698 wrote:
I just got back from doing something else and have been reading the posts to catch up. It seems to me that Quintain espouses the opinion that "My Lawful Good is superior to all others. And any who do not believe as I do is wrong, and must be punished." Unless I'm mistaken.

You are mistaken.

I want to give a real world example of this behavior, but I want everyone to get an understanding of what I am talking about first.

How familiar are all of you regarding the legal concept of reciprocity?


And if the King/Queen are Evil then to a Paladin they are not legitimate, and neither are any laws they put forth.

Again, no. Legitimacy does not require the agreement of the Paladin. This is nothing more than anarchy.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It is actually what you're arguing. You're saying that the Law-Chaos axis is just as important for Paladins despite there being nothing backing that up, and you're saying that official jurisdiction and local legal codes trump all alignment on that axis and therefore the fabric of the cosmos itself.

It is as important because the Paladin code says "respect legitimate authority" -- which means follow the law of the land as passed down by it's ruler. It's in the code, as well as the alignment restrictions of the paladin, as well as their natural inclination as lawful and good characters.

One could argue that it is the most important one because it comes first in the list.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You do realize that Paladins are more beholden to divine law than mortal law, right? It's the Gods that grant them their powers. And the gods can take it away. if you are not pursuing the agenda of your god because their agenda conflicts with the mortal laws of the region, then you're on the fast track to fall town. They'll give you a chance to correct your path. But if you don't, then you lose favour with them.

Actually, in pathfinder, the code of a deity is tacked onto the paladin code. Paladins get their power from "Law and Good", not from Deities.

That *is* canon.

Note "Law *AND* Good*.


Having free will is Anrachy to you?

By definition, free will without overarching obedience to a legal authority is *the definition* of anarchy, Rysky.


Lawful characters would be more than happy to break the law of the land if they view it as illegitimate. Being a law doesn't automatically make it a legitimate law.

There is no such thing as an "illegitimate law". This is a contradiction. A law, legally enacted, is always legitimate. Otherwise, it isn't a law. It's just something someone is trying to enforce through illegitimate means.

If the law is from a legitimate authority (King/Queen, etc), it is automatically legitimate.

Legitimate is not equivalent to Good.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The point is, a Paladin has to put Good over Law in a situation where they come into irreconcilable conflict. The code states this (they can fall for a single Evil act, but not for a single Chaotic act), they smite Evil, not Chaos, and even their associates can be Chaotic but not Evil
A paladin can be part of a group of Chaotic Good companions with little issue (potentially a lot of friction, but the relationship poses no threat to the Code)
While a group of Lawful Evil companions would only be as a complete last resort, and the paladin is required by the Code to abandon them as soon as the greater evil that united them is defeated

Yes, in the case of *irreconcilable conflict*. However, wandering through a land, smiting legal slavers at a whim is not *irreconcilable conflict* by any stretch of the imagination.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My comment was in response to the notion that I you smite one slaver in one country you're fine but if you 5ft step into the neighboring country and smite an equally evil slaver you would fall just because the man-made laws are different between the two counties.

That is not what I am saying.

You would be "good" to smite in either case. If you smite in the evil lands, you would be performing a chaotic act -- you have no jurisdiction. If you smite in uncontrolled lands, you are doing what you are supposed to do. No issues. If you do it in your lands, you are upholding the law.

That is the difference between Lawful *AND* Good, and lawful *OR* good.

This is what is called "Respecting Legitimate Authority". Which means you will obey the law of the lands in which you reside/travel.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Madokar Valortouched wrote:

Yes, it is. x1000 (I win).

Do you realize how childish that makes you sound?

/shrug It is the same response that I was given. I just upped the ante.


Noooo, we're arguing that Paladins aren't beholden to manmade laws.

Which is anarchy, especially if all they have to do to justify their actions is "because I said so".


Not really. Everyone's options are more limited in an area with a legal system... presuming they want to avoid trouble with the legal system.

Correct. And a LAWFUL character would not want to break the legitimate law of the land. Which is what the "smite first" brigade is advocating.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The thing about fanmade content is that it is OPTIONAL. As such, while some would believe that is an appropriate way to act as a paladin of Iomedae, it is not the CANON way.

Nothing about what we are discissing is CANON in any way shape or form. It is an opinion on how to interpret and enact the Paladin code.

It was canon for scry and fry to be able to work, it was also contrary to a strict interpretation of the rules (according to the devs).

What is common interpretation doesn't necessarily lead to the correct interpretation, either.

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