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Purplefixer's page

Goblin Squad Member. RPG Superstar 6 Season Dedicated Voter. 775 posts (943 including aliases). 2 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 3 aliases.


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We're all pretty much agreed that the lurch is silly, though? No dissenters?

Combat Expertise, and all the feats that key off of it, are about superior positioning. You're required to see the opening and react, or anticipate the motions of your opponent.

"If I kick him in the groin, he's going to block with that longsword, and I'm going to be ten inches shorter on the right side."

"I need to wait for his next forward momentum to be able to put my blade under his, so I can turn my hip into him, and grab his belt without getting my thumb cut off."

"I see you've studied capo ferra." "Naturally. But I find that Tibault cancels out capo ferra, don't you?"

"Parry, parry, ho, ha, dodge, thrust... What went wrong?"

Feinting and combat maneuvers are all about playing that mental chess game in which you're one step ahead of the opponent. If you tried to kick *me* in the groin, I'd break your GD shin. But then, I have a level of monk.

As one of the earlier posters pointed out, in a bar-room brawl you end up with dirty tricks and improvised weapons and combat maneuvers all over the place, because no one can take AoOs. But no one does that on a battlefield without significant risk to life and limb, because grabbing your opponent when he's swinging a mace at your skull with the intent to kill you is -really hard-, and at the very least likely to lose you a finger or two.

Perhaps raising the stat requirements for spellcasters is in order to bring things more in line? Wizards needing an intelligence of 13 to cast first level spells seems much more appropriate.

Bob's on board.

Do you believe it's the intention to cause the vehicle to lurch forward up to twenty feet during a basic shift of position?

Do you think Renaissance chauffeurs spent a lot of time backing up laboriously to get the coach into the right place?

I'm hoping for some Dev feedback on this. It's not quite as jarring as pirates dropping dead from lethal rashers of Rum, but it seems like a significant oversight in the rules of the system.

Dave's quotation is correct. Jiggy is correct. If you fail to identify a non-cursed magic item, you are aware that you don't know what the magic item is, and you may try again tomorrow. There are no further penalties for failure, there is no penalty to the next day's roll.

Any other thoughts on this phenomenon? Errata?

Isn't that what deceleration each turn is about? If I'm going 60 with an acceleration of 20, it takes me one, two, three turns to come to a complete stop, 18 seconds, a tremendously long time.

Yet if I accelerate 5 feet from a dead stop, the next turn I drift 5-20. There's no rule covering this other than that, which makes no sense.

Even in combat, 20 feet of drift is SIGNIFICANT. I ease my chariot forward and end up running into the barn wall while trying to line up a shot with the hobgoblin enforcer. This is conducive to neither barn nor chariot safety.

Should there be a 'nudging' maneuver added? Or should the game limit the amount of drift to half acceleration? Or half the previous speed?

Yes. In the case of, say, a merciful shocking grasp, your sneak attack damage converts to non-lethal.

Wearing a coating of silver doesn't prevent someone else's silver weapons from harming you.

5/Silver means you ignore the first five points of damage from each weapon attack that strikes you, unless the damage is dealt with a weapon made of silver. Alchemical silver weapons have a -1 damage penalty, mithril weapons do not.

This doesn't protect you in any way from fire, ice, lightning, or similar elemental attacks. Also be aware that a +3 or higher magical weapon defeats cold-iron/silver DRs.

This still doesn't adress the question of why, when I accelerate five feet from a dead stop, that I drift forward up to twenty feet more when trying to stop the vehicle. This is true of an alchemical sky dragon and of a chariot.

According to the deceleration maneuver this is true of ANY vehicle, as far as I can tell.

Also, we don't appear to be able to five-foot-step as a vehicle, either. Attacks of opportunity for all!

So... I am driving my alchemical steam device. It moves forward five feet as an acceleration action, from a stop. That's great.

Next turn, since I only wanted to move forward five feet... it goes forward TWENTY FEET as I try to stop! AHHHHH! *crash*

Why do I have to be an expert to have even a 50% chance to dock my corvus?

I'm guessing this is not RAI?

This is an excellent question. It goes well with the questions about why touch AC is backwards for vehicles.

We had to homebrew a new archetype to make up for the horrible features of Ragechymist. It really is extremely poorly balanced.

The Morphic Researcher:

Bombs -> Morphic Mutagen
Morphic Mutagen (Su)
The Morphic Researcher gains the Rage class feature, with his
alchemist level counting as and stacking with Barbarian levels for the
purpose of rage, rage rounds per day, and rage powers. This class
feature functions in all ways identical to the rage class feature,
except that the alchemist can access his rage rounds only while
suffering from ability damage, drain, or penalties, and while under
the effects of his mutagen. Any prestige class which adds levels to
the Bombs class feature counts for the Rage class feature as well.
At 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level, the Morphic Researcher gains
a Rage Power to go along with his rage. At 11th level he gains
greater rage. He gains a further rage power at 13th, 15th, 17th, and
19th level.
This class feature replaces Bombs.

Poison Use -> Rage Mutagen

Swift Alchemy -> Morphic Humors
Morphic Humors (Ex)
A Morphic Researcher's internal humors are in a state of infused
balance. Starting at third level, damage to one ability creates a
surge in the others, which in turn expands them. Whenever a Morphic
Researcher suffers ability penalties, the corresponding statistic (as
explained in Mutagens) gains an Alchemical Bonus, stacking with the
alchemical bonus of a mutagen where appropriate.
At 17th level, ability damage and ability drain cause the same
This ability replaces swift alchemy and instant alchemy.

Swift Poisoning -> Sturdy Rage

Poison Immunity -> Lumbering Rage

Brutal Mutagen: Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two
slam attacks. These are primary attacks and are made using the
alchemist's full base attack bonus. The slam attacks deal 1d8 points
of bashing damage (1d6 if small), and takes no penalties on dealing
subdual damage. While the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist gains a
+2 competence bonus on intimidate checks. The Brutal Mutagen counts
as a Feral Mutagen for the purposes of what affects it, what it
effects, and meeting prerequisites.

Resistant Mutagen: Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he may
pick 5 points of damage reduction to fire, cold, acid, or electricity.
The alchemist may choose this discovery multiple times, each time
increasing all other instances of resistance by 5, and picking a new
resistance at 5.

Adamant Mutagen: An alchemist imbibing this mutagen gains damage
reduction 2/adamantine, as if wearing adamantine armor. This
discovery may be chosen multiple times, each time allowing the
alchemist another +2 to his damage reduction, up to half his level.

The alchemist must be level 6 to choose this discovery.
Regenerative Mutagen: Once during the use of his mutagen, the
alchemist gains fast-healing 1 for a number of rounds equal to his
class level, plus his intelligence modifier. This discovery may be
taken more than once, each time allowing the alchemist to use the
regenerative mutagen again during each mutagen use.

What items are and are not allowed on which familiars is now clearly spelled out in the Animal Archive! Silvanshee is a cat with wings so... it's right in there.

While I would make this off limits for Golarion, I wouldn't forbid it from another campaign setting. The making of Ioun Stones has been lost on Golarion for some time, and this is indeed a very Ioun Stoney device!

Otherwise: Hack: Requires Craft Wondrous and Craft Wand, the spell to make it and levitate. Costs as per wand. (CL x SL x 50gp)

Wands are FIFTY CHARGES of a spell that just about anyone can use, and they don't provoke attacks of opportunity. Chill Touch, Ghoul Touch, etc... as long as it's not a ranged attack, wands are excellent little toys for commonly used spells, especially ones you don't want to prepare every day but still use frequently. Infernal Healing is now the most cost-effective HP per GP heal in the game when in a wand!

Sorry. My Chelaxian Tiefling Paladin wears spiked plate armor and does subdual damage with a bardiche. He spends his first round of combat, almost always, demanding surrender and warning that he's a paladin. As if they couldn't tell by the facial tattoo and the relic armor.

-Carry- a scimitar, but don't use it in combat if it's important to your religious rituals. Clerics are going to use them because they're superior to basically any other weapon they can wield without blowing a feat slot. Besides, it'd be nice to have a nice one handed slashing weapon for if your arm is trapped or broken and you can't use that spiffy Falchion.

That being said...

Can you grapple a character/vampire using Gaseous Form?

1) Can an Earth Elemental use Earth Glide to gain the improved cover of creatures chest-deep in water, while still attacking 'creatures on land' with no penalties for itself?

2) Can an Earth Elemental wear equipment? In which slots? Does equipment and gear an Earth Elemental carries go into the ground with it? Can it entomb things?

3) Can an earth elemental take creatures with it when it earth glides, and if it can, can it entomb creatures by making grapple or reposition combat maneuvers?

Yeah, there's a severe lack of correctly sized giant weasel companions, horses, and the most popular animal companions: T-Rex, Ankylosaurus, Tiger, and Gorilla.

A correct plastic wagon mini would go over well, so would some decent heavy armor figs: Spiked plate w/ halberd, spiked shield fighter in plate, mounted knight on a horse w/lance, -DWARVES- of all sorts, especially alchemists and tower-shield dwarves.

Really need to get out some serious class-based minis. One of each race of each class. Gnome Alchemist, Fighter, Witch... Some tiny familiars and some wizard and witch minis with a familiar hitch in the base where the familiar's tiny tiny base sits would be epic.

Same issue here... Wherein do the native outsiders get affected by (Un)Holy Blight/Word? Is a Tiefling Paladin a 'good outsider' for the purposes of these spells?

Any Dev comment as to whether Unholy Blight and such abilities affect a Tiefling Paladin as a 'good outsider' or as a 'good character'?

Goblin Squad Member

Unless you're making rubbing alchohol.

Which should really also apply to rivets and lots of other things, too... like string.

When was the last time you went "WOW! That's some really high quality string!"

Goblin Squad Member

Yes, the lock-picking in Skyrim is -absolutely- a kind of mini-game. It is a skill-based challenge on pattern recognition and elimination of outlying paths to find the single path. It is a 'hot and cold' minigame. It just happens to also be extremely simplistic.

The ancient, ancient game 'Hillsfar' also had a mini-game for lock-picking, one that involved specific shapes of picks and pushing down tumblers. That was a much more complex mini-game layed over the top of the 'lock picking' skin, to achieve the same result.

Goblin Squad Member

We're hoping to run a player-made inn, and sprout our settlement up around that. We'd pay real $$ to customize that.

In fact, if GW gives us our money back at the end of Beta, we'd likely pay during development and help them test out their cash store...

Goblin Squad Member


Signs, Books, Scrolls, Letters... all permanent, stealable in-game resources that can be sold and traded.

We need message boards IN GAME, and maybe something for someone to deliver as mail...

Mailman ftw!

Diplomacy needs hand-offable scrolls and things to take to the next kingdom over, seriously. With seals on.

Goblin Squad Member

HAH! Realistically:

Crime spawns clue. Clue has investigation interface. Investigation interface only turns on if you log on to check if your stuff is still in your house, because otherwise no one sees the -clues-. Soft-Skill based challenge ensues to reveal criminals name.

Goblin Squad Member

/introduce could also have a function attatched. Without argument, you introduce yourself.

/introduce = "Hello. My name is Bram Brightmore."
/introduce Caleb Cowlingsworth the III = "Hello. My name is Caleb Cowlingsworth the III."

"Bram. Stop that."

"Sorry." /introduce THE AMAZING Bram
"Hello. My name is THE AMAZING Bram."


Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

GREAT post, KitNyx. Faved.
This is exactly what we're talking about.

And if you can buy/build/manage an 'apprentice' NPC who can follow your instructions and use your own private materials and equipment to follow your commands and carry out the building while you're not there, creating off of a schematic you have designed, so much the better.


I am creating a set of 22 longswords for the new guardsman contingent of Elysium City. I craft one longsword, focusing on defense and damage, knowing that the NPC guardsmen are going to be -fine- with however much the sword weighs. I pick several heavy alloys and woods from my stock, and assemble the sword. Once it's completed and I'm satisfied with the stats as generated, I go to my NPC 'assistant', who I paid for/unlocked, and enter his dialogue UI. I choose 'make more of these' and give him the sword. He then tells me he needs 22 fir, (which he will make into handles), 220 dolozian enhanced iron (which will make all the metal components of the weapons), and 44 units of pig-leather, to make handle-wraps. I go to my hopper, fill up my encumbrance plus a bit, schlep the eight feet over to him, give him a dirty look for not going over and grabbing the materials himself from the hopper TEN FEET AWAY from him, and then give him the materials. In 22 minutes, my order will be ready.

I then kick back with a mimosa and wait for one of my guildies to come in begging for a new helmet.

Goblin Squad Member

Sounds good, Holey Knight and Wyldethorne! Though... I'm not sure I want a displacer beast hide handgrip...

"What's wrong! Pick up your sword and go after them!"

"Can't... grab... handle...!"

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

I think the "Old Vets" will only be truly "scary" when they're in their "good" gear, and even then a handful of "Heroic Adventurers" will give them a real challenge.

Sounds good, doesn't it?

"I don't want to fight them."

"Why not?! You've been killing bandits out here for two years! You're a renowned bandit hunter. You're not afraid of a little group of eight bandits, are you?"

"Uh. Yes?"

"What!? Why?"

"Jaun... they all have swords. There's eight of them. That's eight chances to stab me every three seconds or so. Against my... what... three chances to stab them? I can only duck and roll so fast. They don't look like -farmers-. They look like -bandits-. If they looked like -farmers- we wouldn't be talking about beating up -bandits-. I'll stay here and keep an eye on them, you go back and grab some help... THEN we'll route them."

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

What I've come to realize is that I might very well choose not to do any crafting in PFO. One of the primary motivators for doing my own crafting in other games is because the market was a joke - the things I wanted to buy simply weren't available.

I expect I will specialize much more in PFO than I have in other games. I probably won't know exactly what specializations I will choose until much more information has been released.

It's the intention of the development team that virtually everything you buy, touch, use, and eat will be crafted by players in some fashion. (Might just be a lot of 'automated crafting' going on by NPC citizenry.) It shouldn't be necessary for *you* to contribute to the economy beyond kill/loot/spend. And speaking just for my fledgeling 12 citizen settlement (so far), =I'd= certainly welcome your sword in protecting caravans, solving wolf attacks, putting down goblin outbreaks, and defending the mine!

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Mercy wrote:

When I was in beta for another MMO (that I won't mention by name), we spent some time discussing with the developers the crafting issue. Most member of my testing group were in agreeance that a more robust system was always preferable to a more automated and mindless one. But the developers stuck to their guns, letting us know that in their minds 'crafting was not heroic'. This being their justification for a shallow and tacked on system.

I am inclined to disagree with this statement. I think heroism has many faces, and it can't be pared down to just killing bad guys. What's more, a game should stand first and foremost on what is FUN, and there are people out there for whom the social aspect is what is fun. Becoming famous because you make a quality item can be equally rewarded for many people as being famous because you downed a boss first. And you would be amiss to discount this group.

Nuada. Hercules. Anyone else who cranks out their version of 'Excalibur'. 'Nuff said.

Not only should crafting be fun, it should be as fun and involved as slaying monsters!

* Travel to dungeons.
* Make tactical decisions about arms and gear to benefit them in both their current situation, and in general.
* Spend their time and money on tools and equipment to get them deeper into the dungeon landscape and fight bigger, richer monsters.
* Have to deal with monsters that want to cut their hamstrings, chew their guts out, and lay eggs in their skulls.

* Travel to nodes AND markets.
* Make educated decisions about tools and workspace to maximize their productivity and increase their efficiency or range of proficiency.
* Spend time and money on tools and equipment to get them richer contracts, and craft better, more rewarding 'stuff'.
* Have to deal with rival merchants and bandits, who want to cut their purse strings, chew up their profit margins, and lay eggs in their... no wait...

So you can already see the similarities. Why should it be any different, when you have already gathered your tools (arms and armor/forge and hammer), gotten your resources together (HP, Spells, Mana/Iron, Wood, Leather, Elemental Flame), and headed to the dungeon (reversed for crafters/adventurers), that the FUN PART should then be so wildly different? Adventurers blast their way through the rank and file baddies to eventually get to the boss monster and have a rewarding, entertaining experience. Why are crafters so often stuck with 'aaaaand click. YAY!'

If 'and click yay!' is your style of crafting, okay, why can't we support that with a 'take 10' button, and make the actual act of crafting SO MUCH MORE involved for those who want it to be? And then reward them for being more involved?

If "I want to push a button and it's not fair that you get benefits from playing minigames I don't want to play" is your argument, then maybe you should be more concerned with battling monsters and getting resources and protecting the settlements of those who do?

(Obviously not aiming all this at you, Ryan, I'm just stream-of-consciousness writing!)

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
And while it would be fun to leave it at that, I think Blaeringr is actually correct, but that he's meaning "newbs" and "veterans" as those at the bottom and top, respectively, of the "normal power curve" that Ryan mentions for "Heroic Adventurers".

Very helpful, Nihimon, thanks! Much more constructive than the 'pooh-poohing' I was feeling from Blae.

That 'newb to veteran' curve appears to still leave a -lot- of room for disparity. I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that your average 'vet' will -still- be able to walk away from an encounter with ten newbies with little more than a hand-cramp from all his button-pushing destruction. And he's not likely to bother and try to loot the bodies afterward, either.

I'm still getting the idea from this post that A crafter being able to push weapons and arms upwards of 2-3 *times* the effectiveness of a baseline newbie sword isn't out of the question.

Ryan Dancey wrote:
"Balance comes when you have conflict between groups of heroic adventurers. In such encounters, the absolute age of the characters should be less important than their tactics, gear, coordination, and player skill."

This is in regards to middle level, 6-10, adventurers. Above level 10, arguably the latter 70+% of your characters life, if the training model follows EVE's exponential growth style, you will be pushing into "Vet Territory". Why shouldn't a veteran smith make swords and armor that tip the balance as much as having another party member in the mix? If his full gear added 25% effectiveness to four party members, he is a virtual, no-HP fifth party member. Very much in the same way as adding another member of the party or adding full WBL makes an encounter +1 EL for Pathfinder!

I think that handles the question 'what about balance'? Since it was never the intent of this original post to say 'by how much', but to ask 'what can we do to make crafting more enjoyable and entertaining for all players', I hope we can move on?

The Devs have to give us more hard numbers before we can give feedback on hard-number issues. We can only brainstorm and salivate.

Also: In Pathfinder, you pay 2/8/18/32/50 THOUSAND gold for simple +1 to +5 bonuses. Don't tell me an 'effective' +2 over and above that (effectively an ADDITIONAL 48k PER SALE) isn't worth the time it takes to level a character that far! As in Mithral Breastplate, player master-crafted goods may become the only 'real choice for enchanting'.

Pathfinder PnP:

In Pathfinder there are only two kinds of armor 'worth' enchanting, outside of very specific circumstances. Worth wearing, really. Mithral breastplate is so cost-effective and effort saving with the movement, sleeping in, and AC bonuses, that it becomes the light/medium armor of choice. If you are going to wear heavy armor, outside of certain noteable exceptions, you wear Adamantine Full-Plate. You build your character with the armor type in mind, you save up to get it as your second or third purchase, you never look back.

Goblin Squad Member

SoR was -excellent-! I played a creepy tree-man armor crafter in that game. The masky tree people were interesting, to begin with, but by the time my three-month-or-so run of the game was up I had barely begun scratching the sheer amount of interest you could really generate in their system.

So you don't want just 'iron swords' either. You'd rather have additives and alchemy, mettalurgy and skill, all playing parts in the way your final item comes out. Getting potent fluxes from your local alchemist to purify the metal and give bonuses on your own checks and tricks for making the certain stats of materials go up or down the directions you want them to be...

So the +1 Sword that comes out of the enchanter also has a host of minor changes, up and/or down, depending on how you did, and what you did, on your end of the crafting?

Goblin Squad Member

KitNyx wrote:

To me this sounds as if you are asking for crafting to be made fun to those who do not enjoy crafting. My wife and I are primarily crafters, we play a game until we have mastered the crafting system, then unfortunately, there usually is not much to hold our interest. I want to craft for the challenge of figuring out better/different recipes...not to play some minigame over and over.

I would prefer that instead of trying to make different aspects of the game appeal to everyone, insure PvP appeals to PvPers, crafting appeals to crafting, and exploring appeals to exploring, etc...then give us the complexity in each area to allow us to invest time and effort in those we wish to.

Great post OP.

Thank you, KitNyx! The point of these forums, and this post, is to both ask the devs to pay attention to this oft overlooked portion of games, and to get more feedback from the community on it. I believe they've taken to calling it 'crowd forging'?

And let's crowdforge over this a bit! Really, -WHAT IS- fun in crafting!? What is it to you? What is it to me? What is it to Holey Knight and Nihimon?

Some people may enjoy the research aspect, putting items together in unusual combinations to get certain benefits...

So what if blade length was a modular thing? What if blades <12 inches (at 3 inches per blade segment) were daggers, and blades between 12 and 19 inches were short swords, and blades with 20-41 inches were long swords, and blades with 41-50 inches were bastard swords, and blades over 50 inches (up to 66 inches) were greatswords? And you could curve those blade shapes in the crafter to make a scimitar, or a kukri, or a falchion, or remove every other segment to make a rapier ('thinning' the blade) within certain length catagories, and each adjustment to blade length and handle length and pommel weight and hand-guard size was an adjustment on weapon speed, damage, accuracy, critical effect, and durability... that each of those was a trade-off for the weapon in the realm of .5%... so that a longsword does logically more damage than a dagger, but has a somewhat slower attack speed. Then a really long dagger does more damage than a really short dagger, but the really short dagger is a quicker, more accurate jab.

Is that kind of complexity and research what you want to know/see/intuit/play with, or are you looking more like the GW2 method of crafting, where you have recipes for a few basic things unlocked as you skill up, then you combine them together to make more effective things: I make a wooden blade-handle, then I make a dragon hide strip, then I combine them together with basic twine (a consumeable crafting ingredient purchased from trainers, merchants, and cat-lovers) in my 'research' window and learn... ta-da! A recipe for dragon-hide blade-grips! Or even more macro than that? In GW2 you literally research a kind of inscription, say, Valkyrie for +Toughness and +Power, and then combine a longsword blade, a blade handle, and your Valkyrie Inscription to make a Valkyrie Longsword. A sword that does Longsword-family damage, and gives +toughness and +power. The only 'meta' part is the inscription, which is made from a dowel (refine logs into planks, planks into dowel) and some body parts: ie blood, bone, horn, claw, fang, etc...

For me it's more the first one. I want some -control- and intuitiveness in what I'm doing. Moreover, I want the ability to distinguish my blades from others. If a +5 weapon is ~50% more effective than a basic weapon, I'd actually be pretty pleased if my work could make a sword skewed in any direction on the chart at ~20% by level 20. I think people would pay quite a lot of money for that. While I don't mind so much putting 'one unit of wood, four units of metal, one unit of hide' into an interface and pushing the craft button, I want each of those units to have some influence on what I'm crafting. The idea of 'bronze blade, iron blade, cold iron blade, steel blade, darksteel blade, mithral blade, adamantine blade' leaves me a bit 'cold'.

So: In Short:

*Crafting is more fun for me when: I can control and customize the product more than simply 'being able to make the same thing as everyone else'.

*What I enjoy about crafting is: the ability to put something of my own effort persistently out into the world, particularly when people recognize it is mine.

I went a long long way in GW2 to hunt down a very rare type of recipe that spent my karma to make weapons other people could use. Almost no one was making that kind of weapon and shield, and I felt pretty spiffy for having been able to supply certain members of my circle of friends with those toys. They looked interesting, and behaved interestingly with a slightly odd mix of stats that couldn't be gotten through the traditional dowel/inscription system. Big high point for me in GW2.

Never came close to -touching- the pride I felt at some of the admittedly middling quality stuff I created in SW:G. The crafting in that game was so complex that really paying -attention- was an extremely rewarding effort. I really had control in what I was pumping out, and I went to no less than three planets scavenging materials for that blaster pistol. But when I was done, by golly, it was -mine-. It was hacked, tweaked, and optimized, and made of the very best materials I could suck, mine, or coerce out of the ground, trees, and beasties. And it had my -name- on it when I was done.

Goblin Squad Member

CaptnB wrote:

Please oh please no mini-games! In most games, they are just distracting players from the fact that crafting sucks.

To make crafting not suck, it has to be more involving. Crafters need to study markets, manage production, secure material supplies, organize logistics for both supplies and crafted products. You can do it by yourself, with guildies, with contractors. You can do it safely in a trade hub or be more opportunist by risking going to remote places where demand and prices are higher. You can specialize into high-end products with low volume and high profits or generalize into mundane stuff with high volume and low profit.

The possibilities are numerous and doing all that requires a lot more than clicking on a "craft" button.

And that's all great Economic stuff which has already been implemented in the game, Captain, but that's Economics, and not Crafting itself. You want to be a merchant, great, that's likely to be part and parcel of the Crafters game, unless you want to outsource the mercantile part of your crafting and just let your settlement supply you with materials, while you supply the merchant with finished goods, and he supplies the world outside the village for you. Which... you know... is how -real life- works, too.

But for the crafting part of the crafting... for the clicking on the buttons to make the sword... which part of that is entertaining to you?

Do you prefer the simple one-click longsword? Or would you rather have to assemble the handle, assemble the handle-wrap, assemble the blade, assemble the pommel, assemble the crossguard, assemble the weapon, polish the weapon, sharpen the weapon, cut the bloodgroove, etch the blade, and inscribe the crossguard? Would you rather each of those steps was a one-click process, or that each of those steps also required multiple segments of interaction?

If the crafting contains a mini-game to stitch, a mini-game to forge, a mini-game to smelt, and a mini-game to etch, but ALSO contains a 'Take 10' button that skips the mini-game for a simple progress bar, are you more or less bothered by the inclusion of the mini-game?

Goblin Squad Member

/anon would do the opposite of /introduce.

Instead of hiding who you are from the world and being =incredibly conspicuous= you would use /introduce to distinguish yourself from the local NPCs and put a name over your head for anyone in short range. (perception bonus X5'?)

Goblin Squad Member

I think are misreading the intent, Blaeringr. The intent of the MMO as I have just read is to have "new characters always be relevant", not to have "minimal difference". I've just read in several places that if you acquired a higher level weapon 'somewhere' that you might, if you are fortunate as a low level character, be able to spend ALL your threads binding the weapon, as opposed to 'all your level appropriate gear'.

It is not: Level 8 guy is virtually indistinguishable from Level 1 guy.

It is: Level 8 guy actually got sneak-attacked by that Level 1 guy and -noticed-, unlike in other MMOs where a discrepency of that level means that you virtually don't exist.

I imagine hitpoints to be in the HUNDREDS, as with other MMOs, not in the TENS, as with Table Top Pathfinder. A sword that does 'plus one damage' is likely to be a very low-end enhancement, as opposed to what we would call a '+1 weapon'.

Handing a newb a +5 sword sounds like a great way to -lose- your sword by a marauder or mis-handled respawn. Remember: No threads, no bind, no sword. Unless they've confirmed that weapons and armor will NEVER be lost on death? I read that you will respawn with weapons and armor, but that was before the 'thread' issue went official.

You're -incredibly- negative, Blaering. Are you playing devil's advocate, or do you really believe that we're all going to be using virtually indistinguishable gear? It -is- still an equipment-based game. It feels as if you're violently defending an untenable position, or fitting over a topic that bothered you. Can you sight the segment that has you up in arms here?

Goblin Squad Member


That's -insane-.

And -inane-. These people cheat at a skill-based game why?

Well... no... duh... I've been the victim of RPer griefing before, I can certainly imagine ten year olds on their parents PCs giggling with snot running onto their shirts...

It should still tie your client up long enough that you would be better served just -playing- the danged game. >.<

I hope we at LEAST get the option to write our own books and such...

Goblin Squad Member

The Holey Knight wrote:
I guess I don't know what is meant by "mini-games". If the "game" has to do with crafting items then I understand, but it seems like said minigame is just busywork to give you something to do while your thing is being created.

Go download and play Puzzle Pirates for ninety minutes. If you can put it down that soon. In the game, you play a Gems style mini-game in order to rig the ship. The better you do, the faster the boat goes. Your carpenter is doing a piece-fitting game, trying to match up random pieces of flotsam into the holes punched in the deck by the last fight. The ship health increases better depending on how he does. Meanwhile, the ship is taking on water (ALWAYS) and you have people at the bilge-pump stations trying to do a swap-match game to pump out the bilge. If they do too poorly, the ship starts to flounder.


The Smelter
The goal in this mini-game is to remove the impurities from your ore. Starting with -good- ore makes the game harder, and allows for smaller chains of scum, but you have less room to improve to 'pristine iron' anyway. In this game you swap single bubbles on the slush to get impure bubbles to connect to each other. Impure bubbles that make chains of 5 or more are 'scraped', cleaning the ore and leaving you with a better slurry to cool into ingots before you begin your work. The character's 'refining' skill determines how many 'swaps' the player gets to make in the mini-game, and any 'lot' of ore can only be smelted once.

So you can see how easy it is to come up with ideas for games that both impact the forging of equipment as well as entertain the players, giving them something to do OTHER than hack and slash. And since some people don't want to do that, the 'take 10' option should be available after they've tried at least once, or have passed a certain thresh-hold of training.

Goblin Squad Member

Carbon D. Metric wrote:
Valandur wrote:
Purplefixer wrote:

My wife wants to -focus- on administration and crafting, and ideally, there will be support for that. Support that makes crafting and playing the market as entertaining as adventuring. PARTICULARLY if that playstyle supports and enhances others playstyles.

I second this, as being a member myself and found myself more than a little bit excited at the prospect of our communities building themselves even before the servers are up and running.


For example I am personally looking to vest myself into the divine arts of healing, growth, agriculture, and mercantilism as opposed to the typical "stands in back healing the group" type goon cleric. I am looking to be very deeply involved with resource management, creation, transport and even sales.

I'll be sure to get you guys a message on launch day, assuming someone is around the crossroads ICly talking to people about The Circle when we suit up to head out. Since we're doing everything ICly, I hope you leave someone there to get our coordinates... We're going to be racing off into the woods to start our inn on the ford to one of the nice little rivers out there in the woods, and then try to build a settlement out of it.

Behold the holy mandate of Erastil!

You all sound like a bunch of Abadar devotees.

Goblin Squad Member

Valandur wrote:

You should check out the guild I'm in, Keepers of the Circle . We are planning on having a settlement as soon as they are implemented, as well as having a heavy crafting presence with trading and market contracts being big focuses as well. Here's a link to more Info

My understanding of the market system is that it'll be non-linked like the markets in Eve Online (Yay!) and will operate with buy/sell contracts as well as standard buying and selling by individual players. The market system in Eve is a lot of fun, at least it is to me.

Yes, we've heard that as well, and we're very excited about it. My wife was making ~2.5mil a week on ToR. She liiiiikes playing the market. I'm likely going to get drafted more for marching cross-country with her than in trying to expand and defend my own settlement...

As for guilding... We intend to start our own:

IC recruitment. IC advertisement. IC interaction. NO OOC ALLOWED. We're going to try and solve 'Guild Drama' the old-fashioned way. By not talking to people out of character.

The first guild I ran (NATION, on Virtue Server, City of Villains) was done that way, and terribly fun. I couldn't get people to challenge my authority with a sledgehammer and an ice-pick... *eyerolls* That's what I get for playing a sadistic telepath while being someone who's terribly good at guessing what you might do next...

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:

Curious how you would see them address the issue of power gap.

Given how the plan is to have a milder gap between new players and veteran players than in most MMOs, will a 10,000 hour platemail specialist not expect their platemail to be a lot better than anything the new players can afford?

How do you expect a +4 sword to be around the same value as a regular old non-magical non-masterwork sword? Won't that cost a LOT more than anything a new player can afford?

We've already heard that there will be 'high level gear' (read the article on 'threading') so someone must be able to make it.

The point was to not make the lower level players irrelevant. Unlike actual Pathfinder, six first level characters are going to be able to jump, and injure, a sixteenth level character. My money is still on Sir Smacks-a-Lot though...

Goblin Squad Member

Dario wrote:
Purplefixer wrote:
HAVE ALL MINI-GAMES BE RUN CLIENT-SIDE. You don't want lag to kill your gameplay experience and wreck your materials.
No thanks, I'd rather not be replaced by a script.

You can handle that with a check every random number of attempts by GM poking. Or requiring you to still move between games to prevent idle-logging. And how exactly does a script whack-a-mole? Can a script play Plants vs Zombies? Perhaps I am unaware of the meaning of 'script' in this case?

Goblin Squad Member

Valandur wrote:

Purplefixer, have you read the blogpost that talks about the crafting system? While its not set in stone, what Ryan describes I fairly complex. You can view the blog post by following the link in the first post of this Thread . The thread it's self has some Dev comments on crafting as well.

I enjoy complexity in crafting, what I've heard so far sounds pretty good

I have! But what Ryan is talking about there is fundamentally trade and economics, not craftsmanship. The actual act of crafting should be fun, as well, and should have enough variation that 'a Varandal Sword' should be different than 'this sword I bought out of a barrel of other swords at The Crossing'.

I am going back and reading blog posts though... may as well start at the beginning...

Goblin Squad Member

On Bounties: Yeah, we'd need to have a 'justice pool' or some such, as well as respawn rights for a jail, perhaps, once the thief goes down?

Also, do we know for sure already that they will be flagged for EVERYONE if they pickpocket? I thought it was only for the victim? Wanted Posters would flag that individual for -everyone- unless they had activated a disguise. Again, more use of 'soft skills'.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
Purplefixer wrote:

And she's a -doctor-. You wouldn't argue with a doctor, would you?
Depends on the doctor, doesn't it? Doctor of what? If not a doctor in adventuring I should think if she suffered a misconception about adventuring then almost any adventurer might argue with her. Right?

*mumble mumble mumble...*

Being wrote:
What was that?



... ...

... ... ...

They're on to me! *flees*

She's a history doctor. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Banditry is violence to acquire goods. It's stealing -and- coersion. It is most certainly evil. That's why the bandit's credo is 'Your money or your life.'

"There's just a rule out here in the River Kingdoms... A man sees you comin. He gets a chance to defend his goods. You don't sneak-thief. That's a coward's game. You tell a man 'gimme the wagon or your wife' and he gets a choice to do it, or take you out tryin' to stop you. And you'd be surprised how often you get the wife."
-Korra Belse, 'Land Pirate' (River Kingdoms, Kuthona 25th, 4712)

Goblin Squad Member

Carbon D. Metric wrote:
I whole-heartedly agree that the most vital aspect of character development in a world like this will be the level at which any given character can differentiate him/herself from any other given character who aims to complete similar goals.

Exactly. And MORE importantly at later levels than in the beginning. There should be an -order of magnitude- more end-builds than there should of starting points. You may begin with 11 classes, but you should have a choice of at least 121 paths to take within those classes while still qualifying for your capstone. My wife wants to -focus- on administration and crafting, and ideally, there will be support for that. Support that makes crafting and playing the market as entertaining as adventuring. PARTICULARLY if that playstyle supports and enhances others playstyles.


For example, there is NO good excuse in a sandbox environment for every front-line warrior in a siege to look just like every other same-race-sex warrior standing right next to them. Even more so when it comes to individual character skills, equipment, magic items, weapons, abilities, flavor, and capabilities. The entire battalion spamming the same power attack skill, cleaving every time the cooldown is up, and throwing acid flasks until they run out is just... boring.

I quit WoW for this same reason. I am not grinding seventy levels to wear the same set of armor as EVERY OTHER WARLOCK, thank you. Cookie Cutting = Bad. We fixed that with 3.5, let's not go back with PFO.

Bashing on 2e:

Back in my day (which was a thursday, in case you weren't there) every fighter was craning to be the same guy. It was 18/00 or go home. You wore plate because that's how it was done at the time. You wouldn't dream of fighting with a bow unless it was a backup weapon. It was sword and board or nothin. You might have had the odd duck now and then with a greatsword, but mostly we made fun of that guy for overcompensating.

A character with 22 dex and studded leather armor should be just as sturdy as one with 14 dex and full-plate.

No. This is wrong. You should be differentiating a bit more, really. Squishy guys should -feel- squishier. Plus, remember DnD: 22 = +6, Studded Leather = +3; Plate = +9, 14 = +2 (maximum of +1) Plate = +10. The plate guy should, realistically, have MUCH better damage mitigation, but move more slowly, and have smaller evasion.

Ideally, out of 10 strikes, each worth a base of 150 damage, the light armor guy should be hit four times for 85% damage (510 damage), and the plate fellow should be hit eight times for 55% damage. (660 damage)

The plate guy should have better HP, and - one would hope - some kind of innate damage reduction or other mitigation. I just read a post about AC and it appears my example is just about correct, but one hopes they've gone more into the math than 5xAC Bonus = DR and 10xDex Bonus = Evasion score. ;p

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