GREAT post, KitNyx. Faved.
This is exactly what we're talking about.
And if you can buy/build/manage an 'apprentice' NPC who can follow your instructions and use your own private materials and equipment to follow your commands and carry out the building while you're not there, creating off of a schematic you have designed, so much the better.
Example:
I am creating a set of 22 longswords for the new guardsman contingent of Elysium City. I craft one longsword, focusing on defense and damage, knowing that the NPC guardsmen are going to be -fine- with however much the sword weighs. I pick several heavy alloys and woods from my stock, and assemble the sword. Once it's completed and I'm satisfied with the stats as generated, I go to my NPC 'assistant', who I paid for/unlocked, and enter his dialogue UI. I choose 'make more of these' and give him the sword. He then tells me he needs 22 fir, (which he will make into handles), 220 dolozian enhanced iron (which will make all the metal components of the weapons), and 44 units of pig-leather, to make handle-wraps. I go to my hopper, fill up my encumbrance plus a bit, schlep the eight feet over to him, give him a dirty look for not going over and grabbing the materials himself from the hopper TEN FEET AWAY from him, and then give him the materials. In 22 minutes, my order will be ready.
I then kick back with a mimosa and wait for one of my guildies to come in begging for a new helmet.
Light Armor Smithing >
*Medium Armor Smithing > *Heavy Armor Smithing >
*Light Armor Mastercraft, Medium Armor Mastercraft, or Heavy Armor Mastercraft
As lower tier skills, we imagine at some point that Jaundaluv probably bit the crossbow bolt and bought all of the mastercraft skills. Some customizations and themes that can be used, even on heavy armor, might require moderate to high levels of mastery even in the branch that stems from Light Armor Mastercraft. Like, say, Skimpy from being an excellent Light Armor Crafter, or Elk from being a Medium Armor Crafter (knowing how to do hide armor).
So he's spent thousands of training hours on his crafting skills, and in combat, he's officially like, a Level 3 Rogue, but in practice, he's more like a Level 13 Expert.
But making crafting fun, making it a cerebral exercise, and making minerals valuable, comes more from what we learned from playing StarWars: Galaxies. The game had what was arguably an easily broken into crafting mechanic with -incredible- depth. You need durability for your plates, malleability for your rivets, flexibility for your straps, and no one really -cares-, but ideally you need durability for your buckles, too. Once you're into mastercrafting, you should be looking at the quality of your materials. Any schlub apprentice smith can make a suit of chain mail out of pig iron, but you need to first make steel, binding your nickel, charcoal, and iron together to make it bright and strong. Once you're mastercrafting you should be looking at multiple tiers of mastery. If your armor-training skill goes up to 20 to determine just how good you can be at wearing full-plate, the crafter should have 20 levels of certification for 'levels' of full-plate he can craft, each marginally better than the last, and each requiring that level of armor-training to wear effectively.
Then your master smith goes about the world digging in the ground for highest quality iron, highest quality nickel, and highest quality copper, and returns to mix his reagents in the way that only a wizardly smith can... While any apprentice might have dug the iron out of the ground, he probably can't Appraise it the way a master smith can, and probably can't squeeze the best use out during the smelting process...
This means that your armor stats are dependent on the stats of the hides and ores involved in the making of the armor. The same goes for swords. And if the devs give us just a 90 word limit on descriptive text for an inspected or examined object, we can even tell you what we used.
"Jaundalev Greymantle creates his plates from Stoneforge iron, shipped at great cost from the Stoneforge Delve far to the east. He uses premium leather from Scarrowbridge for his straps, fashions rivets from his own high quality copper mine. This blood-lacquered Wolf-Themed Full-Plate was fashioned for his friend Fighter on Abadius the 14th, 1477."
Maybe Jaundalev gets an apprentice who handles a lot of his lower level work, shaping the rivets and buckles for him. Maybe he purchases the services of a company that ships over his iron. Maybe Paladin and Fighter make the runs to Scarrowbridge twice a week to bring leather back from the cow farms there, where they've taken to breeding cows with really, really tough skin. That armor suddenly has a story, and if Jaundalev doesn't make the best breast-plate in the world, he can at least send some of his custom-smelted breast-plate front and backs to the best medium armor crafter in the world, forming a partnership to make fat piles of profit across the nation!
Still, what I'm saying is, make crafting -deep- and involved where materials are concerned. Armor stats should be more than just 'ACP and Armor Bonus'.
My wife and I have been discussing the merits of a game without combat. She's a pacifist, RL, and has only just started to get enthusiastic about a Pathfinder character who deals whopping, steaming, make the GM cry levels of damage. (Thank the designers for a Halfling Titan-Mauler Barbarian... >.<)
Still, when we played SW:G the thing she wibbled on about for -days- was the ability to get in and play a dancer, or doctor, or engineer, and -never- have to swing a weapon. She wants to do much the same thing with PFO, and it sounds like she -just might- get the chance to do that, playing a cleric of Erastil.
Yes. She's going to stay at home in the kitchen and bake me a pie. ;p
Still, gender-roles and the only chauvinistic deity on Golarion aside, to make a character like that playable, you have to make crafting fun.
One of the very best ways to do that is to give characters the ability to really, really, really specialize. Give basic functionality to anyone and everyone, but make it a 10,000 hour trip to be the world's best platemail crafter. IE:
Long, story-driven example:
Jaundaluv Greymantle, the Half-Elven artisan, has set out to be the world's best Full-Plate designer. Our beloved protagonist begins in the neutral aligned nation to start with, betting on his platemail being a commodity all will want, and being basically unconcerned with anything that doesn't begin with comm- and end with -erce. Jaundaluv makes a few friends, a fighter-archetype and a paladin-of-Abadar-archetype, who hope to make use of the craftsman's skills later on.
Hoping for some usefulness in the realm of 'getting the materials I need to craft', Jaundaluv begins with the basic training of the Rogue, learning to sneak and hone his perception, and picking up the weapon skills required to use light weapons. A few hours later, he's already working on his crafting skills, learning basic light armors while Fighter and Paladin trek along beside him, having a merry old time foraging for food, running afoul of some goblins and hobgoblins, and prospecting for decent iron and/or copper. Sure enough, by the end of the day, Jaundaluv has gathered hides, copper, iron, and fiber/cloth necessary to try his first unlocked recipe: leather armor.
Following the clear, large-lettered onscreen instructions with glowing arrows and interesting sound-effects, he places the materials into the forge/bench/widget and creates six leather straps, twenty copper rivets, four iron buckles, a leather armor chest-piece, a leather armor skirt, leather pauldrons, and leather boots. He carries these over to the next widget in the public crafting space, and bangs out his first set of basic, +2 AC Leather Armor.
... A year passes...
After learning all basic recipes, Jaundaluv began specializing in heavy armor. He can master-craft heavy armor out of dragon-hide, mithral, even adamantine. He can stain and lacquer heavy armors in interesting designs and colors, and do chaising in gold and silver. He can theme armor with bats, wolves, crows, bulls, demons, angels, inevitables, fish, flames, ivy, or stags; though he never bothered to branch off and get the themes for butterflies, 'super heavy', 'skimpy', stars, or skulls. Moreover, he can get the most out of his armor well before it's enchanted, making more resilient, lighter armor than most smiths, IF he can get better metal. After seven thousand hours of work, the smith-mark of Jaundaluv Greymantle is known across the River Kingdoms as being the -very- best plate you can buy.
I -just- posted this elsewhere, but Wanted Posters should auto-flag the portrayed individuals for 5x Int hours on inspection. You look at the poster, you remember for a few days that face and what they were accused of.
There's another MMO in development -right now- doing just this, called Salem. No one has floaty names, you have to learn to identify people by what they wear and how they act and trust that when someone says their name is Fuddywuffer Binglebang, that it's -really- their name.
Every character should have a Knoweldge: Local skill that gets tagged every time they 'inspect' another character, PC or NPC, and the fame/reputation of that character gets tagged on them.
Right click random stranger: inspect
Inspection Window Says:
You don't know anything about this person. Add a note?
(que little yes/no selection and note window)
Right click random stranger: inspect
Inspection Window Says:
Grimdark Darkgrim (DISGUISED) Raven Bloodwolf
WANTED -
4000gp in Empyreal City
200gp in Bender's End
50000gp in Concordat
Murder (10/6/2014)
Murder (10/6/2014)
Murder (10/6/2014)
Murder (10/8/2014)
Theft (10/4/2014)
Other Crimes
Add a note?
mage armor provides an armor bonus... there for it could be argued that it is indeed armor of a kind... bracers of armor could be considered the same, as could a robe of the archmagi (which provides an armor bonus).
It could be argued, but it would be argued wrong. Armor of any kind refers to armor, meaning light, medium, and heavy armor. Bracers of Armor, the Shield spell, and Robes of the Archmagi are none of those things.
Qinggong Monks reproduce magical effects with their Ki. They're supposed to be 'honing their temple' to the point of LOOK AN AMAZING FLYING DISTRACTION! Don't get pedantic. Bonus types are not equipment. Creating stumbling blocks is like trolling yourself. Pointless and silly.
Skeletons and zombies don't suffer non-proficiency penalties for weapons and armor due to their 'creepy cunning'. Which might want to be errata'd into an actual thing.
Rock Throwing, Rend, Constrict, Grab, and many more abilities are RETAINED by the creature when they become undead versions. These are clearly spelled out as (Ex) abilities, and do not rely on magic or proficiency to function. Skeletal wolves trip when they bite, and skeletal T-Rexes can swallow you whole.
I might not make people cut their way out of a skeletal T-Rex though. :D
Command Undead is not a "create mindless undead pet."
Yes it is. It's 'take control of mindless undead minion for number of days equal to your caster level with no saving throw'. It in no way changes the way the undead critter responds to commands given to it.
Happily, I don't have to play in your game, but you're being unneccesarily pedantic when it comes to this. Hopefully your campain world isn't littered with embittered Whispering Way cultists who have hung themselves in frustration.
By the same token, 'it imparts no knowledge' is incorrect. Mindless undead have no knowledge. They have no grey matter at all. They have no intelligence score. Do you have to explain to your animated rope what 'words' are before you can explain to it how to 'tie' and 'untie' knots?
Remember, it's Pathfinder, "A wizard did it" is an amply sufficient explanation.
Summoned monsters come into being WITHOUT speaking the language of the summoner, and automatically attack your enemies. Period. There is no communication required. This 'magical sense' applies to undead 'pets' as well. Remember, this is DnD, "a wizard did it".
The skeleton has an intelligence of -. It doesn't have to be explained what words are to understand what the difference between a man and a woman is. And yes, giving commands to undead is a MOVE action. Only enacting commands you have previously given or very simple commands 'kill' and so on are free actions. You can, by RAW, get away with about six words in a round as a free action. Anything like detailed instruction (and this includes shouting instructions to a five foot square for your blind archer friend!) is a move action.
If a man in the back is wearing a robe and casts a spell, you can also say 'attack the wizard' and the intent of the command follows through just fine. Remember that the PCs aren't speaking english either... 'that wizard over there' could be different from 'my friend the wizard' in the Common Tongue. Don't be pedantic, it makes you a 'dick gm'.
And this is coming from a guy who makes his PCs track ammo and rations and carrying capacity.
I cannot help but @.o at this sentiment. Completely mind-boggling. The best experiences I've ever had on MMOs have been in joining RP guilds and developing character while conquering content. If that's not your cup of tea so be it, enjoy the gameplay, and I hope we can make it as entertaining and engaging as possible.
That being said, in an MMORPG of an Table Top RPG, shouldn't there be some... RP... in the G? Support for the hobby shouldn't detract from the gameplay. A rich palette of emotes, postures, movement-modes, clothing options/design, furniture, player content-control, government control, territory dispute, ecology, economy, and social command/control options are powerful tools for RP (as are multi-player/multi-side duels) that in no way impinge on the gameplay aspect, and will, in fact, expand and enrich it.
What specifically NON-RP aspects are you looking for?
I wish I could have ten million dollars, all for me, free of entanglements and impediments and investigations, right now, that I could spend in whatever way I wished.
But AFTER THAT... my wish AFTER THAT... is for an MMO with no non-RPers.
Then for the perfect corndog, then intergalactic space-travel, then world peace, then my very own jetpack.
Join a guild who punishes griefers and gankers. ...
As a matter of fact, I just put up a post about forming a guild, since that seems the way to get into the earliest renditions of the game and start giving serious feedback.
I'm a veteran beta-tester, I'm 32, and I'm also a part-time father. I'd be happy to have a few more on hand who also think PvP is for settling duels and not for 'ganking newbs lol'.
Though I do appreciate the EVE model, and think it's been working fantasmagorically well in Champions as well...
All players, one server, no unique names, surnames unique but shared through adoption and marriage anyone?
After an EPIC five hour fight scene, Kimandatsu, Omoyani, four ninjas, two trolls, and a partridge in a pear tree just incapped and captured my party samurai/two-handed fighter/style-monk and our cavalier/holy-shield paladin. The ranger and alchemist escaped, but there's a simple reason they had so much trouble with this highly epic encounter...
Kimandatsu does not live at C6. She lives at C16. My interactive map has C16 where C6 should be. I only realized this issue AFTER the fact.
@Aegis Lancer
Well, wizards only get four things. They get a school, they get bonus feats, they get spells, they get the arcane bond. One of these things is OBVIOUSLY worth more than one ability slot... or even three!
I just did an Adamant Interceptor (Paladin/Cavalier) that exchanges spell-casting for a special ability mechanic but I want to keep it proprietary. Further, I've been talking with Elghinn about taking this -whole idea- proprietary, and moving from this 900+ post thread onto a list-serve to continue refining, polishing, and adding content, until we're happy with what we have, and then either going to a publisher, or waiting until my own publishing set-up is ready to rock and publishing through PA Games.
So, digressing from the Aegis Lancer, and asking for the attention of Cartmanbeck, RaiderRPG, Flak, and all the others who have contributed to this thread:
What do you guys think about assembling this content, possibly into more bite-sized chunks, and either pitching the parts to a 3PP, or helping me to launch my own 3PP with custom art for each of the archetypes?
I've just enrolled in university for game design theory courses and creative writing, I'm looking at PDF Publishing suites and racking up the money to purchase the one I'll need, and now I'm trying to bank content. I'd love to have a dedicated team of friends, accomplices, and partners to help me with such a massive undertaking as this. Are you guys interested in professional third party design? If you don't want to get any more involved than you already have, do we/I have permission to use the ideas you've already given us, with proper credits to you?
SO MUCH good content has come out of our thread here, I'm really impressed. I'd like to see everyone get the recognition they deserve here, and I'd -love- to make this more than a casual thing or assembly of home-brew rules.
Character Name: Gochin Tajima - Samurai of the Jade Throne (Tien Human Two-Handed Fighter 1, No Daichi and Katana), and Tristan "Doesn't Have A Last Name" (Half-Elf Ranger 1)
Catalyst: The Swarms of Skitterfoot
Reason: As presented, Skitterfoot whips the snot out of the PCs. Maybe because my party always failed their Cause Fear saves, but of 3 PCs, one ran away, the second pulled his alchemists fire and dropped it, rolling a 1, and was down the next round, the other went in to save him, and went down too. When the girl came back and dragged them out of the doorway, Skitterfoot let them go.
Character Name: Full Party Wipe
Catalyst: Tsutamu the Ronin Skeletal Champion
Reason: Round 1: Critical Hit against the cavalier. Round 2: Critical Hit against the fighter. Round 3: Cleave against the fighter takes both fighter and ranger to -HP. Tsutamu took 13 damage.
Had Tsutamu stabilize them and drag them away from his precious treasure, but they came back the next day and almost wiped again. I had to give them the quest reward early, let them level, and then come back and get him at Level 2.
These characters really can't fight CR 2 and 3s at level one!
Wait until you see the entire AP for how it all pans out for one thing.
But even if the NPC ends up taking the throne, that doesn't make that NPC the "star." Anymore than it makes Aragorn the star in Lord of the Rings.
This gives me "Hero Fits". That's heroism, right there... it's not the queen who is the most heroic character in the story, it's her champions. It's the guys who stood up and buckled their belts and dinged first level when she read the letter. That's the birth of heroes.
"No s#!t, there I was... A dark and stormy night... the old man had just given the little girl bartender her letter and settled into a seat near the fire to dry off the rain. I had my beer half raised to my lips when she started reading, and it stayed there the whole time... I was just a caravan guard, man... I never knew. I never felt the... *need* to be an adventure. To be so bad-a$$ that this perfect tiny little Tian girl would feel safe in the middle of nowhere with just me and my sword to keep her from the ravages of bandits and monsters. Man, I spilled my beer all over myself when I jumped to my feet, just the second she stopped reading, to cheer her on and pledge my loyalty. That's the day I became an adventurer. That's the day I became level one."
If worse comes to worse, you can roll up a character, show up to the game, and when everyone sits down to look at you for what to do next, you look at HIM expectantly.
"Oh...? Oh no! No, I'm not running this game anymore. Ted is. Yeah, he's already more familiar with the game than I am, and I was supposed to be running it, so he's running now. Ask him what comes next."
Hey, if he wants to run the game, let him! It'll give you some time in front of the screen for a change.
Purplefixer
Goblin Squad Member
