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Cayden Cailean

Protoman's page

Goblin Squad Member. FullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 1,170 posts (1,179 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. No wishlists. 8 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Gordrenn Higgler wrote:
Luthorne wrote:
Gordrenn Higgler wrote:

Does Telekinetic Invisibility and Wings of Air have a duration?

Also does Telekinetic Invisibility deactivate after attacking?

Telekinetic invisibility says that it works as invisibility except as described; since a duration is not described, it should last for one minute per level and deactives after attacking.

Wings of air, on the other hand, specifically says it's a constant spell-like ability, which means that it lasts indefinitely unless dispelled or something similar, and, as noted here, can be reactivated as a swift action if something deactivates it:

Bestiary wrote:
A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit; unless otherwise stated, a creature can only use a constant spell-like ability on itself. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action.
So Telekinetic Invisibility should be able to be used on others then

Looks like it. Which would be cool!


Luthorne wrote:
Gordrenn Higgler wrote:

Does Telekinetic Invisibility and Wings of Air have a duration?

Also does Telekinetic Invisibility deactivate after attacking?

Telekinetic invisibility says that it works as invisibility except as described; since a duration is not described, it should last for one minute per level and deactives after attacking.

Wings of air, on the other hand, specifically says it's a constant spell-like ability, which means that it lasts indefinitely unless dispelled or something similar, and, as noted here, can be reactivated as a swift action if something deactivates it:

Bestiary wrote:
A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit; unless otherwise stated, a creature can only use a constant spell-like ability on itself. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action.

Wings of Air has a specific statement/action for reactivation.

Occult Adventures wrote:
The air bends to your will, allowing you to soar to great heights. You are constantly under the effects of fly. If this effect is dispelled, you can call it forth again as a standard action.


If you're bigger, your reach is larger, which is potentially pretty awesome for Kinetic Blade, but even more so with Kinetic Whip. That's about the only benefit I can think of offhand.

Any size bonuses is already applied via elemental overflow, which you get to customize.


Jimmy of the Sad Panda wrote:
When using a composite blast can you gather energy to reduce the cost of it's burn, or is the only way to reduce the cost of brun waiting until you get composite specialization?

Gather energy works for any blasts and composite blasts, even when modified by infusions.


For the OP:

Level 1 - Simple blast (electric blast). Level 1 Infusion (kinetic blade). Basic aerokinesis utility talent.

Level 2 - Level 1 Utility

Level 3 - Level 1 Infusion

Level 4 - Level 1-2 Utility

Level 5 - Level 1-2 Infusion

Level 6 - Level 1-3 Utility. 6 levels of Human Favored Class benefit can score you a Level 1 infusion/utility talent you qualify for.

Level 7 - Expanded Element.

If you pick up another element, you one of that element's simple blasts (Hint: Pick a physical one to go with your current energy one).

If you had picked your primary element (in your case, Air), then you'd get the other simple blast of your element if there is one (air blast) AND you get a level 1-3 infusion or utility talent of your choice.

In both cases you get a composite blast you qualify for depending on what Expanded Element you pick or the blasts you have.

If you got Extra Wild Talent feat at this level, you can get a level 1 infusion or utility talent.

This continues to level 15, when you get Expanded Element again.

You can either choose to either pick up a 3rd element for yourself and get a new simple blast and new composite blast,
OR
Pick Expanded Element (air) for second time and get a +1 to attack, damage, caster level, and DCs for talents that use Air.


The human favored class ability gets you the Extra Wild Talent Feat. So the -2 levels rule of the feat applies.


Melkiador wrote:
Did anyone else miss that you get your element's Basic X for free at level 1?

I didn't. But that's mostly because I clamoured for it back when I had to play level 1 pyro and embarrassingly had to tell me party while in the sewers I couldn't provide a light source for everyone. So when that got promised for the final version, I was chompin at the bit with glee.


Luthorne wrote:
Protoman wrote:

Can one suppress constant/passive supernatural utility wild talents? Or choose not to use a constant/passive utility wild talent?

Specifically Searing Flame. Was wondering if I can turn it off, get my kineticist to burning infusion blast himself and NOT suffer the fire resistance reducing ability of Searing Flame vs an active Heat Adapation talent. With my kineticist on fire he'd be a constant source of an open flame to use Smoke Storm with.

I could do it with alchemist fire or something (though from how it's written I'm never too sure how long the thing lasts for. It only says the following round after a direct hit would there still be damage, but no mention of subsequent rounds.)

Can't you just use basic pyrokinesis to set yourself on fire with spark? I mean, it does have to be a Fine object technically, but you could just start with your sock or something. Or have a collection of hats.

I figured I'd want something very definite so I don't have to deal with too much table variation for PFS.


Maybe on level 11 and onwards if one wants to avoid getting burn every round. Until Supercharge at 11, Gather energy would only take off 1 burn with a move action and infusion specialization doesn't help with the composite blast burn costs


Can one suppress constant/passive supernatural utility wild talents? Or choose not to use a constant/passive utility wild talent?

Specifically Searing Flame. Was wondering if I can turn it off, get my kineticist to burning infusion blast himself and NOT suffer the fire resistance reducing ability of Searing Flame vs an active Heat Adapation talent. With my kineticist on fire he'd be a constant source of an open flame to use Smoke Storm with.

I could do it with alchemist fire or something (though from how it's written I'm never too sure how long the thing lasts for. It only says the following round after a direct hit would there still be damage, but no mention of subsequent rounds.)


So if i cast light on an enemies armor what happens? Do he become slightly warm or will he get burned by the heat.
I'd say he feels warm. I wouldn't allow it to hurt enemies because the ability doesn't say it can. One shouldn't allow autofire damage with something that doesn't have an attack roll or saving throw and as a level 0 cantrip. Essentially, a cantrip shouldn't replicate a level 2 spell "Heat Metal".

Can i use it on some rocks to cook food on?
I'd allow that.

Can i ignite things with it?
Sure. That and spark would be good for flammable objects.

Any one ells have any ideas of what you can do with it?
With heat adaption, I'd put the light on hand and use it as a torch and also to ignite flammable things as I walk by.


Kinetic Blasts
Weapon Focus (kinetic blast). If you qualify for it later, Weapon Specialization would work too.
Improved Critical.
Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot work anytime you use a blast with form infusions that allow attack rolls. If you use AoEs (like fan of flames or cloud or eruption, there's no bonus to attack or damage when targets are within 30 ft).
Deadly Aim with the physical blasts. Not the energy blasts because they're touch attacks.
Bullseye Shot, Opening Volley, and bunch of other general ranged combat feats. It'll be easier if you got a specific feat in mind you wanna know about instead of trying to list off feats from an expanding number of books.

Though, as a bonus for melee stuff:
Kinetic Blade/Whip
Weapon Focus (kinetic blast) still applies for these form infusions.
Weapon Finesse works if you set the size to light.
Power Attack works with the physical kinetic blades/whips. Energy kinetic blades/whips are touch touch attacks.

Kinetic Fist
Weapon Focus (unarmed strikes) would be used for this instead of Weapon Focus (kinetic blast) because the form infusion is modifying the unarmed strike, rather than the infusion modifying the blast (which Kinetic Blade and Whip does).


Ravingdork wrote:

Can I declare that my kinetic whip is a light reach weapon, and thus benefits from Weapon Finesse, even if there might not be any actual light reach weapons in the game?*

If it has to take the shape of an actual existing weapon, and there aren't any light reach weapons in the game, then kinetic whip might lose a lot of appeal for a great many kineticists. Even if such a weapon does happen to exist, it might still lose some appeal if players are forced into using a certain descriptive flavor.*

* Even if there does happen to be a light reach weapon in the game, I would like this question answered as though there weren't such a weapon. In short, do you have to mimic an actual existing weapon, or can you just describe it however you want?

You don't have to replicate the looks of any specific weapons. The rules of kinetic whip is that you make a one-handed or light weapon that has reach. How it's shaped is based on the kineticist's imagination. Really long straight sword? Sure. Flexible whip? Absolutely. Razor thin tendril of elemental matter? Ouch!


I'm also reading it as infusions are off the table. It'd be like a fighter swapping Weapon Training due to an archetype and not benefitting from a feat that'll allow him to pick another weapon group for Weapon Training.


Don't bother multiclassing. If things get in melee range, 5 foot step away. Also finesse and kinetic blade when you're around level 3 can be life savers. You can gather energy to avoid the burn cost of blade. Just be careful if a GM ever understands the kineticist enough to know that readying an action to attack after a gather energy can be very painful for the kineticist. Won't have to worry about the burn cost as much at level 5 with infusion specialization.


Anything requiring a ranged attack roll would suffer from shooting into melee. That's been a common knowledge rule since the 3.0 days.

But here's a Mark Seifter post indicating spellcasters need Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot to avoid the shooting into melee penalty.


Gathering energy does not provoke.

Kinetic blast does provoke. Provokes once for using a spell-like ability while threatened, and provokes a second time for making a ranged attack while threatened. Best tactic is to 5 foot step away then fire (move action left to gather energy too), tumble away with acrobatics and fire, or not bothering to fire and use kinetic blade (which doesn't provoke because it's used as part of another action and not an action itself) instead.
Casting defensively for kinetic blast would only prevent the first AoO from it being a spell-like ability being used when threatened, not much can be done about using a ranged attack while threatened unless you have the Point Blank Master feat or some otherability allowing one to do shoot without provoking.


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Absolutely then can (ignore his comment in the link about special weapon qualities, that obviously never came into being).
The elemental overflow bonus to attack is active for blades/whips, so as long as they're able to use weapons for the maneuver, they'd get the bonus to the CMB roll.


Though, you're right. I did. Will fix. Thanks.


I can't find any specific rules for a vacuum environment. Do fire elementals function in a vacuum?

But a pyro or other kineticist draws the elemental matter from the Ethereal Plane. For fire matter I'd say they provide their own combustible components when the kineticist manifests it and can still be active in a vacuum.


Single-element focused kineticists will be fine. They'd score level 3 infusion at level 7 instead of having to wait til level 9 and for a lot of them, such an option is often pretty great.

There will be times they wished they had another element's wild talent, but that happens all the time with any class looking at another class's abilities.

In those times, just like with a greatsword fighter vs flying enemies, a spellcaster against a magic-immune golem, or an archer swarmed in tight quarters in melee, one needs backup options.

Carry weapons that can be somewhat optimized for you. Crossbow or finesseable melee weapons (of several special materials). Maybe cestus so that you count as armed and flanking (kinetic blade lasts until your turn is over, on others' turn you'd be unarmed and not-threatening) so you can take advantage of AoO and your allies can a benefit of having you around besides blasting.

Only have an energy blast and run into something that's immune? If you're appropriately decked out for melee, starting aiding another or provide flank, acrobatics around enemy and get them to waste AoO or chase you, or start taking advantage of utility talents (some elements have better support talents, of course). If ranged focus, start shopping for useful things early. Splash weapons, crossbows, slings are free, use party's wands and play support caster if you got decent UMD.

If a single-element-focused kineticist isn't doing something in combat, it's their own fault for getting too lazy and dependent on their blasts. No one cries for sympathy for a martial class than only focused on melee, no one's gonna feel bad for the kineticist for not providing his own alternative options.

Of course, life can be easier if expanding out to different elements. It's completely up to your character concept and how much effort you wanna do.


You're just adding the d6's of your blast.

For example:
Level 1 Kineticist with Improved Unarmed Strike and Kinetic fist.
1d3 + Strength Modifier + 1d6 element

Level 5 Kineticist
1d3 + Strength + 1d6 element (your blast only does 3d6 at this point so kinetic fist doesn't go up)

Level 11 Kineticist
1d3 + Strength + 2d6 element

How useful such a talent is up to you.

Elemental Ascetic gets flurry of blows. That could get you Pummeling Style and Charge if you're so inclined. They'd lose use of regular simple blast without a form infusion (and even then can only use form infusions that don't use ranged attack rolls, so gotta stick with AoE stuff). Level 5 they can start increasing the kinetic fist d6's to d8's.

Non-Elemental Ascetics can keep light armor on make it brawling. Get haste on yourself. Maybe level dip to brawler for armored flurry if you still want Pummeling Charge.

Other ways to get unarmed damage up, most involve multiclassing I think.


What kind of damage are you expecting at which levels?


Precise Shot is important for blasts attacking regular AC. Even those that attacking touch AC benefit from it as potential cover from allies can be just as bad.

I found Toughness to be awesome for the first time ever since HP is such a big thing resource for the class.

With elemental overflow I'm not yet inclined to get Weapon Focus. The straight out bonus to attack balances out the average BAB and potential size bonus to dexterity even more so.

At levels 7 onward I'm thinking most of my feats are gonna be Extra Wild Talent to pick up lower level talents I missed out on. I'm still debating on whether to swap out my human favored class bonus (HP) I've been doing for 7 levels for 1/6 Extra Wild Talent in order to get another level 1 talent.

Weapon Finesse for anyone ever planning on going melee with Kinetic Blade or Whip and making more than one attack and playing anything but an Elemental Ascetic (they might be more inclined for Strength, who knows. I'd really need to stat one out one day).


PRD Glossary wrote:
Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.

I'm inclined to say no. Without at least a +1 enhancement something's gonna need to be stated to still count as magic for DR purposes.


I think it's only worthwhile for melee at low levels. Until Flurry of Devastation the Abbihilator can still use blast normally without the devastating infusion.


Milo v3 wrote:
Whats the actual benefit of flurry of devastation? Is it just feats like two-weapon fighting and rapid shot + range? I mean, can't devastating infusion already be used as part of a full attack since devastating blasts go off attack actions?

I believe Flurry of Devastation is what allows one to fire blasts at range with full-attack iteratives. Devastating infusion allows full BAB but the iteratives only apply for the melee (as per Kinetic Blade); ranged blasts would still be with an attack action.


The regular kinetic blast is a spell-like ability and a standard action to use; Rapid Shot requires a full-attack action and wouldn't work with it blast.

As Felyndiira stated you'd need an infusion that'll allow a ranged full-attack action, such as Elemental Annihilator archetype's Flurry of Devastation, if you want Rapid Shot and things like haste to work.


Yup! Don't forget to apply infusion specialization.


Only time my PFS pyro ever goes near water anymore is on his own ship. And even then he has flame jet ready to keep him in the air if need be.


LazarX wrote:
Roadie wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Actually I was referring to the combination of burning infusion and searing flame where the target's fire resistance is reduced by the umodified amount of damage you roll for purposes of determining it's fire resistance.
That does nothing against immunity, and reducing fire resistance by 1d6 per round isn't all that impressive, especially when somebody on fire can make a DC 15 Reflex save every round to extinguish it.

If you're constantly facing fire resistant foes at first level, you've got other problems. And keep in mind that if someone has to take their action to put themselves out, that's a turn where they aren't doing anything else.

Also keep in mind that the fire resistance is reduced by the TOTAL amount of damage you do that strike, not just 1d6.

Searing flesh and burning infusion just reduces the fire resistance by the burning infusion's 1d6 burn damage, not the blast damage. The burn damage + fire resistance lowering is active for several rounds, but each time only 1d6 burn that stacks with the previous damage for lowering resistance.


Metamagic feats applied to spells don't affect SLA because they specifically only mention spells. And they don't have spell slots but both get mentioned in their FAQ. Pyromaniac specifically says spells and other fire abilities that predate kineticist but not SLA's in general.

Ignoring FAQs the pyromaniac gave out 4 SLA and only produce flame has the fire descriptor yet it still states that the caster level is equal to the gnome's level, not "gnome's level + 1" if the pyromaniac ability had applied.


Specifically an underwater crossbow. Anyone read underwater combat rules? Trying to cast fire descriptor stuff underwater sucks.


Roadie wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Actually I was referring to the combination of burning infusion and searing flame where the target's fire resistance is reduced by the umodified amount of damage you roll for purposes of determining it's fire resistance.
That does nothing against immunity, and reducing fire resistance by 1d6 per round isn't all that impressive, especially when somebody on fire can make a DC 15 Reflex save every round to extinguish it.

The saving throw DC is probably also 10 + half kineticist level for effective spell level + Con modifier (which can potentially get real high thanks to elemental overflow granting a size bonus to Con), just like the one to avoid getting on fire.

Actually some help, does one become automatically on fire if pyro bears SR or does enemy get a Reflex save to avoid being set on fire?


zergtitan wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Roadie wrote:

I'm not sure which is the strongest, but I think fire ends up at the bottom of the heap.

Everybody and their dog has fire resist or fire immunity by mid to high levels, and unlike most of the energy types, there are a lot of high-level monsters that have fire immunity without having the fire subtype. Devils are universally immune to fire, for example, and random demons have immunity to fire on top of their demon traits.

By the time you get to that level, you get the option to laugh at both resistance and immunity.
What ability does that? From what I saw the resistance piercing is really slow (1d6/round and requires a failed save... and the enemy not putting the fire out), and I don't think there is anything for ignoring Immunity.
He probably meant draining infusion for immunity. It only works for things of the same subtype as a kineticist's element focus. Dragons and elementals? Sure. Demons, devils, angels, or other creatures with no element subtypes but still got the immunities? A Kineticist who doesnt branch out would get boned.

I think they meant this,

** spoiler omitted **

Pure flame infusion isn't good for energy resistance or energy immunities.


LazarX wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Roadie wrote:

I'm not sure which is the strongest, but I think fire ends up at the bottom of the heap.

Everybody and their dog has fire resist or fire immunity by mid to high levels, and unlike most of the energy types, there are a lot of high-level monsters that have fire immunity without having the fire subtype. Devils are universally immune to fire, for example, and random demons have immunity to fire on top of their demon traits.

By the time you get to that level, you get the option to laugh at both resistance and immunity.
What ability does that? From what I saw the resistance piercing is really slow (1d6/round and requires a failed save... and the enemy not putting the fire out), and I don't think there is anything for ignoring Immunity.
He probably meant draining infusion for immunity. It only works for things of the same subtype as a kineticist's element focus. Dragons and elementals? Sure. Demons, devils, angels, or other creatures with no element subtypes but still got the immunities? A Kineticist who doesnt branch out would get boned.
Actually I was referring to the combination of burning infusion and searing flame where the target's fire resistance is reduced by the umodified amount of damage you roll for purposes of determining it's fire resistance.

Oh. That's what Matrix Dragon guessed for resistances. It's useless against immunities though.


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Matrix Dragon wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Roadie wrote:

I'm not sure which is the strongest, but I think fire ends up at the bottom of the heap.

Everybody and their dog has fire resist or fire immunity by mid to high levels, and unlike most of the energy types, there are a lot of high-level monsters that have fire immunity without having the fire subtype. Devils are universally immune to fire, for example, and random demons have immunity to fire on top of their demon traits.

By the time you get to that level, you get the option to laugh at both resistance and immunity.
What ability does that? From what I saw the resistance piercing is really slow (1d6/round and requires a failed save... and the enemy not putting the fire out), and I don't think there is anything for ignoring Immunity.

He probably meant draining infusion for immunity. It only works for things of the same subtype as a kineticist's element focus. Dragons and elementals? Sure. Demons, devils, angels, or other creatures with no element subtypes but still got the immunities? A Kineticist who doesnt branch out would get boned.


Melkiador wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Well all spell-like abilities have an effective spell level, but spell-like abilities aren't spells which pyromaniac specifically states needing to do, along with other abilities a kineticist doesn't qualify for.
That FAQs application to this topic is questionable though.

Application of the FAQ? Sure no magic item activation involved. The statement "A spell-like ability is not a spell" doesn't grant a lot of wiggle-room though.

chad gilbreath wrote:
Yes but choosing fire as your element make them spells with the fire descriptor

The wild talents are spell-like abilities. Not spells. If a spell-like ability has a fire descriptor, it's still not a spell that has a fire descriptor. It's the same thing with how being able to cast spell-like abilities doesn't let one count as a spellcaster.


Well all spell-like abilities have an effective spell level, but spell-like abilities aren't spells which pyromaniac specifically states needing to do, along with other abilities a kineticist doesn't qualify for.


As of right now the gnome pyromaniac doesn't interact with kineticist because all the kineticist talents are mostly spell-like abilities (supposedly some are supernatural but I don't know which ones as the only stated supernatural stuff are the class features).


LazarX wrote:
Catharsis wrote:


Air: Unlimited flight at 6th and powerful defense against ranged attacks is a killer combo. Not much versatility beyond that, but man, unlimited flight is awesome. I had a beastmorph vivi once and loved having a Fly speed.

You get the same Flight from Fire as well. In fact, one refers to the other for mechanics.

Not technically the same flight nor is it a fly speed. Flame Jet allows you to move in a straight line 60 ft (or 30 ft upwards) as a standard action (move action with Greater Flame Jet) and doesn't reference Fly. The one advantage it has over Fly is that it doesn't get slowed down by encumbrance. Self Telekinesis works the same way and references Flame Jet.


The first sentence says elemental overflow kicks in "whenever she accepts burn" so it's pretty much an instant bonus on that initial blast and subsequent blasts.


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The wielding stuff I think came into being because of a discussion back in the playtest thread about using weapon versatility feat to use it on energy blades to do slashing/piercing/bludgeoning. Mark had to rule it then that blade/whips aren't wielded for stuff like Weapon Versatility (he sad Martial Versatility but I assume that's a mistake due to context).

Bonus: I found the post where Mark says two handed Power Attack is ok.


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Heck Mark's own playtest kineticists used weapon finesse.


zanbato13 wrote:
What about energy kinetic blasts formed as a gauntlet for a melee touch attack unarmed strike?

As long as you never refer to it as an unarmed attack (touch or otherwise). It's a kinetic blade shaped like a gauntlet? Finesse it but nothing affecting unarmed strikes or gauntlets factor into yor kinetic blade attack. Brawling armor? No. Avenger vigilante's Fist of the Avenger for unarmed/gauntlet damage? No. Weapon focus unarmed or gauntlet? No.


Well the blade forms in your hand, so I think regardless of whether it's wirkded or not, you're still holding it to melee attack with it and Weapon Finesse would apply if it's light weapon sized.


That's explaining that elemental overflow gets activated for the day when she accepts burn. The first sentence is saying it's activated and visual description of what happens to a kineticist. The second sentence goes into the mechanical aspects of what elemental overflow does with the amount of burn a kineticist has. "Currently" is used because that number of burn is gonna potentially increase throughout the day.


Hyamda wrote:
Isn't that part of making the blast? Like you do with gather energy but instead of reducing burn you just don't gain a big glowy Bullseye on your self?

Suppressing it temporarily turns off all the benefits of elemental overflow along with the visual descriptors of elemental energy emanating from a kineticist. Once she uses a wild talent, everything comes back on instantly and still using the burn she currently has, she doesn't need to accept more burn if she doesn't want to.


It says right in your quote "she receives a bonus on her attack rolls with kinetic blasts equal to the total number of points of burn she currently has".

If elemental overflow benefit only applies while gaining burn at that same round, then it would say so like with the element defense talents's special "when you gain burn this round" benefits.


Hmm yea I guess it wouldn't matter too much in long run. If someone's treating it one-handed they're choosing to use Strength to hit which isn't exactly the best choice for a kineticist most of the time. Finessing a telekinetic blade that one is using a greatsword for would be awesome and one can't two-hand it anyways due to finesse.
Hopefully Mark can clarify soon after GenCon.

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