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Cayden Cailean

Protoman's page

Goblin Squad Member. FullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 859 posts (862 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 7 Pathfinder Society characters.


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MathNerd is probably reading the Core Rulebook PRD entry on Read Magic which doesn't include non-core classes.

MathNerd, check out the main Witch page PRD entry from the Advanced Players Guide.

Or even the last witch page in the Advanced Players Guide book if that's what you're referencing.

I don't see why it would be different than the original monk, which isn't a key class for any monster role. Unless you think it's way more combaty you can have it set as that.

Also, this question might be best done at the Council of Thieves forums, specifically the Infernal Syndrome thread.

Have you tried Ctrl+F or whatever the Mac equivalent is to do a search for text in the PDF? Try "Stygian".

I vote getting a swarmbane clasp. No one likes getting eaten by an ant swarm.

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Hmm maybe information referred to by Robert Jordan is probably this post.

They do seem to be gained rather late to be useful. I'm hoping there's more stuff earlier on that hasn't got mentioned.

Anyone with the pdf willing to share what the unchained monk gets to boost will saves for peace of mind purposes? Robert Jordan mentioned something about a "Diamond Mind" ability few pages back.

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Just to throw alchemist's fire to the kindling, the Champion of Irori prestige class has d8 hit die, full BAB, and all good saves (granted, starts at +1 because it's a prestige class); so there's that for a precedent.

The poor base will save part doesn't bother me too much, though I am REAL interested in the unchained Still Mind stuff.


+10 precise strike
+10 challange

26 Str = +8 x1.5 = +12 Strength modifier with one natural weapon.

11 BAB (2 monk + 10 I assume daring champion cavalier) = +9 bonus with Power Attack

+3 body wraps.

I get 1d4+44. 1d4+48 if charging with Horn of the Criosphinx.

Assuming there's no issues with Signature Deed being used by a panache class like swashbuckler or daring champion, you didn't actually get 11 levels of the panache-granting class where Signature Deed generally needs 11 levels of gunslinger at least.

You forgot 1 tactician teamwork feat.

Otherwise, looks good to me.


PRD. Magic Item Creation. Creating Potions.

The creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew. In addition, he needs ingredients. The costs for materials and ingredients are subsumed in the cost for brewing the potion: 25 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.

All ingredients and materials used to brew a potion must be fresh and unused. The character must pay the full cost for brewing each potion. (Economies of scale do not apply.)

The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

Material components are consumed when he begins working, but a focus is not. (A focus used in brewing a potion can be reused.) The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.) Brewing a potion requires 1 day.

Item Creation Feat Required: Brew Potion.

Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (alchemy)

Playing a pyro in PFS, whenever there's fire resistant creatures, I've found the Reckless trait and ranks in acrobatics have helped immensely by acting as bait for monsters to chase and into AoO range of the heavies. Yay for kineticists getting Acrobatics in the final book.

I ALSO found having an underwater light crossbow to be really important. Anyone check out the caster level check required for a fire-based spell or spell-like ability to be used underwater? It's DC 20 plus spell level. Since there's no written way to reduce spell level or the blast damage, it doesn't very easy to overcome that as you level up (every two levels, the difference between DC minus caster level is reduced by one). I know fire blast doesn't technically have the fire descriptor, but common sense would make me throw my books at anyone that suggests otherwise.

Speaking of which, SHOULDN'T there be descriptors in square brackets, e.g., [fire] for fire blast, of some sort for the element blasts? Do spell-like abilities typically list off descriptors or does one have to read between the lines in the ability description text?

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Rhedyn wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
If not? Just add back in the strong Will saves in your games.
Things like this are surprisingly difficult. I know when I run games, I am extremely hesitant to change the rules. If the poor will save was not critical to the new monk, most of us would just assume that the devs would not have given monks a poor will save. Thus, there must be some secret reason the devs did it that is not immediately apparent to those of us who do not professionally develop rules.
There are good reasons for it, but those reasons express themselves in a macrocosm across many games; they don't necessarily apply in the microcosm of your game in particular, since everyone's game is different. We try to make choices that are right for the macrocosm, and with Unchained, we're putting a lot of power in your group's hands: we're explicitly emphasizing the fact that we trust you to have the unique and specific perspective to make changes that are perfect for your own group, and we're giving you as many tools and as much advice as possible to help you become better at it, and to feel confident that you can (sort of teach someone to fish in this book, rather than giving them a fish in previous ones).
Yes but I never learned to fish because I can buy fish. Many will take this book as either new variant fish or new ways to season previous fish. Some might use this book as a fishing pole or net, but not all will view it that way.

What people do with fish in the privacy of their games tables, is their fishy business. All developers can do is provide the fish.

Hmmm Fire Giant pyrokineticist.....

Yea kinetic fist is absolutely inferior to kinetic blade right now unless the character has a CRAZY high strength score.

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Rhedyn wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
I find the idea that changing one save from good to poor renders the entire class concept moot to be fascinating.
Such a phenomenon is usually accompanied by cheese and the world's smallest violin.

eh. Saves are ridiculously important as core central mechanics of a class.

It would be like the fighter going from full BAB to 3/4ths BAB.

If that's your equivalent, then you shouldn't have a problem of a monk going from 3/4 BAB to full BAB and only losing one good save out of the original three.

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Shisumo wrote:
I find the idea that changing one save from good to poor renders the entire class concept moot to be fascinating.

Such a phenomenon is usually accompanied by cheese and the world's smallest violin.


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I have a couple practice wooden swords. They certainly don't deal piercing or slashing damage. I'd think a club would fit the bill quite nicely.

I do own a couple of wodden training swords (mostly bokken), in the Jade Regent adventure path, paizo actually mentions a character who has to use one shaped like a katana since his real sword is unavailable.

It deals damage like a club for his size, but does benefit from all his feats and class abilities that specify katana use (like weapon focus/weapon specialization).

It is burried in the AP text, but I would love to get it PFS legal.

Agreed! Been wanting one of those for a PFS character. Weapon Versatility feat to make it useful against slashing/piercing DR.


I recently encountered a player that rolled his traits and story feats using the background system in Ultimate Campaign. But that was with me as a player and I told him after the game about the additonal resources page and basically hardly anything but traits and retraining were allowed from that book. Another player (while I was playing) openly admitted to not owning any of the books while playing a gunslinger and wondering if the GM was a stickler about that kinda thing (I face-palmed at that).

As a GM I never felt the need to audit much. Someone brings up some interesting combinations of rules that doesn't sound too implausible, I make a note of it to check up on later after the game on my own time and bring it up with the player on next game day. Between busing/walking to the various PFS locations in my city, setting up maps, tables at the venue (especially to keep Magic the Gathering players from snatching up everything), shuffling walk-ins who didn't sign up via Warhorn or orientation for absolutely new-to-PFS folks, and babysitting a bunch of grownups that GMing often devolve to, I don't have time to audit anything before or during the game.

I sometimes encounter obviously non-PFS-allowed feats/traits/alternative racial traits/item, I explain it, say it's not usable, and if I got time, help them find a replacement between encounters. If not enough time, then at the end of the scenario. I find the Inventory Tracking Sheet and filling in the non-GM parts of the chronicle sheets the main things that are falling between the cracks in player bookkeeping and I do pause the game to go through it.

If I learn that anyone doesn't actually own the book for whatever they're using, I'll let 'em finish off the scenario, then explain that next time they play that character they'd need to bring the book/watermarked pdf to show they own it. I only make 'em do that once as I remember all my repeat players so far and I don't require/want them to lug around books unless they want to for their own referencing purposes. Though they're on their own with other GMs in my city.

On non-game hours, if local players message me on Facebook or via the local PFS Facebook group page, I'm cool with going over everything with the player within the Core rulebook and whatever sources they own to help out with their character: traits, classes/archetypes, feats, skills, ability scores, and numbers adding right. I typically help out with basics for the first time, get them to play the character at least once to figure out the feel of what they want with the character after actual play experience, then help 'em out in depth afterwards.

Blayde MacRonan wrote:
I have a question concerning the Mad Dog barbarian archetype, and if this has already been asked, then my apologies for not noticing. According to the archetype, it gains Damage Reduction at level 10, but the regular barbarian gains it 7. Yet the Mad Dog doesn't lose this class feature at 7th level. Is this a typo or was the archetype supposed to follow the normal progression, with the addition that the animal companion gains it as well?

Since it doesn't replace anything, I believe the damage reduction gets delayed to 10 for both the barbarian and the animal companion with a stated maximum of DR 4 rather than the regular barbarian's DR 5.

Hmm no samurai VMC. But I think fighter VMC is gonna be a popular choice for several of my characters since it grants everything I like about fighters.

Do samurais, ninjas, and antipaladins alternative classes have varient multiclassing options?

claudekennilol wrote:
I know it's accepted to work that way, but I would love to see some rules text that explicitly says that point-blank shot works with anything that has a ranged attack roll.

The link Nefreet put up is to a thread that has Sean K Reynolds (while he was still the guy doing FAQs and giving official answers on the boards) basically confirming that.


Ok... so since this is something I have to be able to point to from you Sean or the PDT FAQ in order to use it in PFS, as some GMs have been applying the penalty for firing into melee, but not allowing us to get the bonus to damage for things like point blank shot, Inspire courage, etc.

If a spell or ability requires an attack or ranged attack roll, even if it is not necessarily a ray, it takes the normal ranged attack penalties for firing into melee/cover, and also recieves any bonuses to damage that would apply (only applicable to hit point damage, not spells like enervation etc).

Yes, correct.

Kifaru wrote:
I think the armor check penalty of a shield is a negative modifier to attacks when you use weapon finesse.

Yea if the shield is strapped on for a shield bonus to AC, the armor check penalty would apply if finessing and bashing. Masterwork light shield or mithral shields should help remedy that.

donato wrote:
Yrtalien wrote:
Have you seen anything that wasn't previewed that you found especially cool? Other than the dropping iterative attacks (which sounds awesome)!


Yes! Innate item bonuses.

This is another way to get rid of the big six. Most of the big six items are gone (headbands, belts, etc.) Instead, those slots gain those bonuses naturally. For example, a shoulder slot item will grant a +1 resist bonus to saving throws if its base price is between 1,000 gp and 4,000 gp, but the price is a little higher for the extra bonus. This means you can buy a Cloak of Elvenkind for 3,500 and get the +1 and the full cloak. From the looks of it, the prices of the two items are just paid together. It encourages new items for the typical slots.

Ooo I like that system. Not too drastic a change and beats the extra 50% gp on additional cheaper abilities on the same slot rule.


AHHH Ok thanks! Totally missed that.

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Only if it's a light weapon.
Light shields = Yes.
Heavy shields = No. It's a one-handed weapon.

If you have the shield-trained Gorum religion trait, then you can finesse a heavy shield as it makes you treat it as a light weapon.


I'm confused on why people mention using the cards for season 6 or 7. The cards don't expire, right? We can still keep using them in season 7?
And we can still use them for earlier season scenarios, right?

Sam Defoe wrote:
Thunder_TBT wrote:
Do Kukris work with slashing grace?/are their any ways to get Kukris to dex to damage?

Yep. A Kukri is a one-handed slashing weapon. Its also a light weapon. It works with Slashing Grace.

There is an alternative method to get a weapon to use your DEX instead of STR, however that requires you have an agile weapon like a +1 Agile Kukri for instance which is about 8k or more in gold. As Agile makes it so even a greatsword could deal damage with dex yet you don't use DEX 1.5 for a Agile Greatsword.

Kukri's are not one-handed slashing weapons. They're only light slashing weapons and would not work with Slashing Grace which only works with one-handers. As of now, only agile would work.

Also greatsword doesn't work with agile, agile only works with weapons that can be finessed to begin with.

Would a swarmbane clasp work with a ray or other weapon-like spells or spell-like abilities (like with upcoming kineticist's blast)? From this FAQ I would say yes but I'd like to poll others before I invest in it for my PFS pyrokineticist.

Elrawien Lantherion wrote:
Does anyone know if these options will be available for Herolab?

That's up to Hero Labs. But I don't see why they wouldn't. They've added almost everything else.

I vote Reactionary as that's useful every combat.

Caretaker fluff can simply be integrated into the character via RP. The mechanical benefit has VERY short shelf life. However if she's already maxing out Heal and wants to RP being able to diagnose what's wrong with someone, then it can be worthwhile. But if her modifier ever hits +18 to +20, I don't think she'd ever really need to increase it.

Signature Moves seems pretty cool. Can afford a masterwork composite longbow or shortbow (why shortbow?) with +1 Str bonus (or higher if not set on those stats) and darkwood if the strength modifer stays low.

LoneKnave wrote:
Is it a Mauler familiar? If so, you can grab toughness for yourself, and that feat that gives the mauler more HP (Mauler's endurance I think?) to survive those fireballs.

Definitely a mauler. Mauler's Endurance is slated for level 5. Toughness is in consideration depending how I roll for HP for next few levels (lucked out for levels 2 and 3 with good rolls thanks to GM's reroll and take the second result rule). Hard to fit in at times if I'm gonna get 2 teamwork feats before level 10 (which is for Coordinated Charge) and pick up the Weapon Focus/Specialization feats for the fighter. I know they probably aren't all that useful in the long run for an AP, but my only comparable advantage compared to a party of spellcasters is accuracy and damage so I want to keep that up if I can.

Hit level 3 with my Human Eldrith Guardian with greatsword and Fox familiar in Rise of the Runelords AP.
Feats: Weapon Focus (greatsword), Power Attack, Spirit's Gift.
Fox: Skill Focus (perception), Power Attack.

Spirit's Gift (stone) has been a life saver for the fox, ignoring bunch of goblin attacks. GM and couple of the players were surprised with hearing DR 5/adamantine at level 3, but I explained that: it's only for the familiar (or potential animal companion); the familiar typically isn't combat capable, but my build is an exception; the familiar also only has a fraction of my hit points and REALLY expensive to replace. The GM was also chuckling to himself by the end that a good fireball roll or other magic could still leave the familiar in a smoky crater.
Gonna have to invest in a Raise Animal Companion scroll and maxing out UMD if I want any chance of a discount on getting the familiar back from the dead in much higher levels.


Ouch. Well good luck on the retraining! Depending on the amount of Prestige Points needed, you might need few more scenarios for everything you'd want.

An alternative to retraining would be simply making another character. You haven't played that much with it and could simply start new scenarios with the your new intended build, and retraining out what doesn't work while you try it out for the first 3 sessions.

You're picking up Improved Two Weapon Fighting. What's the current plan on shooting the gun twice in a round? If at all? It's not clear from the write-up.

You're either:
Missing Quick Draw to shoot a second gun.
OR Missing Rapid Reload feat to be shooting more than once a round or even every round if you're intending to be TWF as often as you can.


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Have you played the character when it was level 2 yet?

If you just received your 3rd XP and haven't played the character while level 2 yet, then you can simply replace everything but consumables already spent, as per page 10 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

If you already played the character while second level, you're stuck using the Ultimate Campaign retraining downtime rules. You need to still own the book (pdf or hardcover). You spend the GP as stated in Ultimate Campaign depending on level and what you intend to retrain; and for the number of days needed for retraining you spend that amount in Prestige Points.

From the orignal post, you sound like you might be wanting to retrain race (because the current one was picked for longbow proficiency?) and that can only be done with the first method if you haven't played the character while it's level 2 yet. The Ultimate Campaign rules don't include retraining race (and traits for that matter too).

The feat just lets a character qualify to pick up Weapon Specialization with another feat slot. Ugh.
It's way worse than Disciple of the Sword since it actually grants Weapon Specialization and count the class levels as fighter levels, but that's only for clerics or inquisitors.

With sentinel's level 7 bonus feat, you can pick up Weapon Specialization since sentinel level counts as fighter levels when dealing with the deity's favored weapon; so probably don't even need Sword Oath.

I don't have access to the 3rd party book to check out this archetype you're referring to, but it's still probably easier to use sawtooth sabers for TWF purposes so you don't need effortless lace.

Not gonna make any suggestions for gestalt as that's too messy for me to bother with, but slayer/ranger would be better over paladin, can get more skills and TWF fighting feats.

Rushley son of Halum wrote:
At the end of the day all im saying is that we're in a position where even in PFS games we're having to alter the rules from the source material to make them function. Since PFS is supposed to be so strict on rules that isn't a good position to put people in. But people are having to play their classes and ignore parts of the ACG rules that don't work. It's not good.

For the case of shield champion which you've encouraged players to ignore inconvenient rules in PFS here with ignoring the proficiencies issues, and here with with ignoring when TWF applies for Shield Slam.

The archetype still works, just inconvenient. For proficiencies, Shield-Trained trait or proficiency feats or multiclassing is a workaround. For the TWF/Shield Slam/Shield Master only working with flurrying, there's already a precedent with monks only benefiting from an improved effective BAB while flurrying for Power Attack/Combat Expertise and overal accuracy purposes. It's not ideal but shouldn't be simply ignored in PFS just because you don't like it or annoyed by it.
If the errata comes out and fixes issues, great. Until then classes and archetypes from the ACG are still mostly playable but with some annoying editing mistakes.

Is this for a computer or a tablet?

One of the main advantages for Daring Champion is that it has a good Fort Save class vs Swashbuckler's good Ref Save. Fort saves are considered stronger by many due to the many Save vs Die/Suck spells/effects requiring a Fortitude save. Reflex saves typically only do hit point damage which can get healed easily. Getting blinded permanently or baleful polymorphed takes one out of the fight immediately and remedying that effect can be a pain.

Daring Champion still has medium armor proficiency so not having a parry mechanic at early levels doesn't hurt as much. Also the class has the advantage of not needing as high a Charisma modifier as Swashbuckler since they don't have charmed life. They still get the essential panache deeds at level 4, so even if they only have a 7 or 9 Charisma, for example, they'd still get a minimum of 1 panache point to activate Precise Strike or Parry.

Daring Champions still have tactician teamwork feats that when used smartly, can be team life savers.

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I'm hoping the errata of the ACG will address the action economy issue of Shield Champions. As of now if one was to use a shield without the throwing add-on from Adventurer's Armory or Ultimate Combat, unstrapping (move action) a shield and full-attack flurrying by throwing it is impossible in one round. Getting the shield back at end of one's turn means you don't get a free action or any action to strap the shield back on for defense when everything gets its turn against the shield champion.

My current PFS character is resorting to worshipping Gorum for Shield-Trained trait for shield as weapons proficiencies and using light throwing quickdraw shields (one of adamantine, cold iron, and silver) with the Quick Draw feat in order to use the archetype close to how it's probably intended to use. With close weapon mastery the damage via flurrying is fine, though I'm sad I can't two-hand a large shield for 1.5xStr with Power Attack for 1:3 damage, due to Shield-Trained making me treat large shields as a light weapon.

Unnatural20 wrote:

Not the answer I was looking for unfortunately, so now I'm back to square one on getting an improved familiar with a nonstandard body to gain hands for using wands, but I appreciate the help.

But that's so easy. There's several improved familiars that can speak and have hands to use wands with. Some even have great charisma and/or have use magic device as a class skill (check the monster type entry).

Could simply take aspect of the beast (night senses) or Bloodline Trait (Blood of Dragons) from Ultimate Campaign to solve the low-light vision issue.
Blood of Dragons: Long ago, your ancestors' blood mixed with that of dragons. Choose one of the following: gain a +1 trait bonus on Perception checks, gain low-light vision, or gain a +2 trait bonus on saving throws against effects that cause sleep or paralysis.

Without low-light vision though, you don't get scent. Or vice versa.

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I usually pick threads with titles that get to the point. But more importantly, I hover the mouse pointer over the title for a preview popup to appear. If the relevant stuff appears (basically I look for the equivalent of a thesis statement/tl:dr version of the topic/question), then I find the thread worth checking out and right-click new tab it for reading later and continue until I finish a page of thread links.

If the preview popup is nothing but boring stuff like how the OP is giving background detail on what brought up the topic rather than saying what the actual topic is, I skip the thread.

If the thread is still active for a few days and still showing up in page 1 or 2 of the main Pathfinder RPG forum page and I've exhausted ALL other threads, I'll check out the ones I've skipped.

Yea all discussion on non-kineticists died out. You're not likely gonna get much of a bigger/more lively response outside of the playtest forums until the book comes out.

Soilent wrote:

A level 20 Pyrokineticist build.

I cant shake the feeling I've gotten some important thing fundamentally wrong, can anyone look at this and tell me what I did?

I'm aware that Bracers of Armor don't stack with armor, I'm using a small house rule change, here.

My GM has allowed it to qualify as an enhancement bonus to AC.

My concern is not with the items, but rather with how the blasts function, and attack bonuses.

Well off the top of my head:

Dex 24. Con 28.

Attack bonus should just be +23 vs Touch AC for your 10d6+4 fire blast. +24 with point blank shot, 10d6+5.

Attack bonus should just be +23 vs Normal AC for your 10d6+19 earth blast looks fine. +24 with point blank shot, 10d6+20.

Kinetic blasts are spell-like abilities so you only shoot off 1 with a standard action. No full-attack blasts.
If you had kinetic blade/whip, then you can full attack melee at 16/11/6 or 23/18/13. Point blank shot wouldn't apply because they're melee attacks. Weapon Focus (kinetic blast) would still apply as the form infusion doesn't change the fact the blade/whip are still blasts in a different shape (like extend reach).

If your group is using called shots, and you're sticking with the Improved and Greater Called Shots feats, you should have Combat Expertise for a pre-req.

Rapid Shot is useless for kinetic blasts as the ranged attack is a spell-like ability and thus always a standard action. Rapid Shot only works with full-attack actions. Though I guess it's entirely possible that the "called shots" are typos and you meant Improved and Greater Snap Shot, thus the Rapid Shot feat as a prereq. If that's the case, you're gonna want 4 new feats as Mark Seifter clarified that Snap Shot wouldn't work.

Maybe mutagenic mauler for brawlers would be more to the OP's speed. Seems to fit better.

Had to type in "flanking" for the search over at the Archives of Nethys, but maybe the OP meant, Split-Second Defense?

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