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Cayden Cailean

Protoman's page

Goblin Squad Member. FullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 1,622 posts (1,634 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. No wishlists. 10 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Quain Martial Artist wasn't adding its damage bonus to gauntlet attacks

Can Hero Labs have an option set so that gauntlets do not count as unarmed attacks? Ever since the 12.2 update:

Paizo has clarified that the Gauntlet weapon should not be a separate selection for things like the weapon focus feat, and is instead a modifier to unarmed strikes, so the deity Ng, whose favored weapon is the gauntlet, has been changed to favored weapon: unarmed strike (including the PFS rule that deities with unarmed strike as a favored weapon grant improved unarmed strike to their clerics as a bonus feat). Previously, followers of Ng could not take the Weapon of the Chosen feat tree because weapon focus (gauntlet) was not available in Hero Lab.

It's been a little messed up since it's not officially stated anywhere that they interact the way Hero Labs has them interacting:

Weapon Focus/Specialization (unarmed), and monk's robes, and amulet of mighty fists have been affecting gauntlets.

Avenger Vigilante's Fist of the Avenger talent specifically apply to both unarmed and gauntlet attacks, and the new Shield Gauntlet Style line of feats have Weapon Focus (gauntlet or spiked gauntlet) as a prerequisite. Both imply gauntlets and unarmed attacks are separate weapons.

It's cool if Hero Lab team has picked an interpretation for something that's unclear all over the boards, but can it be set as a houserule for either option?

4) No. Bashing and shield spikes don't stack.

Core Rulebook PRD wrote:

Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see "spiked shields" on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.

An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Shield Spikes could be a magic weapon in its own right since the Core Rulebook. Heck even since D&D 3.5 "in its own right" was in the shield spikes description.

The weapon entry on the table just corresponds with the Shield Spikes text. Table says 1d4 for light shield spikes and 1d6 for heavy shield spikes, those entries are just for easy reference for Shield Spikes' entry of "increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you".

Bashing weapon enhancement states:

PRD wrote:
Bashing: A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.

Both are effective size increases to damage.

There's several interpretations of shield spikes' damage:

A) Shield spikes are a separate weapon doing 1d6 for heavy spiked shield and 1d4 for light spiked shield, and not virtual size increase, so would stack with any virtual size increases.

Lead blades casted on shield spikes or shield spikes with impact would work, but not on the shield itself.

However in this case, the bashing enhancement specifically states it affects shields, with listed examples of light shield increasing from 1d3 to 1d6, and heavy shield increasing from 1d4 to 1d8. Since shield spikes are separate weapons, bashing doesn't interact with it.

B) Shield spikes modifies shield bash damage to be a size larger.

Shield Spikes' text "increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you" means shield spikes is an effective weapon size increase.

According to the FAQ which makes clear that:

FAQ wrote:
effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one.

Bashing is obviously an effective size increase. They don't stack. Take the bigger one.

D&D 3.5 had an FAQ allowing bashing and shield spikes to stack with wording supporting effective size increases to stack with one another. But Pathfinder's own FAQ nixed that old combination.

After initial disappointment of yojimbo from reading what others have said about it from their early subscriber pdfs, I've grown to rather like the archetype. Resolute Defense probably won't see much use since challenge uses don't grow on trees and if I ever challenge, I'm typically rushing off into fighting who knows what to maximize challenge duration. But I realized all I ever really wanted for all my samurai builds was armor training to go normal speed (or potentially faster) in heavy armour, though losing Weapon Expertise's feature of counting as fighter levels stings a bit. Bodyguard looks fitting and useful and I look forward to saving PFS party members with it! So far the yojimbo is a suitable archetype if willing to lose a mount. Much better than the sword saint by far (granted, that ain't saying much).

I'm assuming the yojimbo's Armor Expertise armor training qualifies for advanced armor training, but the class/archetype itself doesn't qualify for the Advanced Armor Training feat since it requires "fighter level 3rd" and yojimbo lost that when it swapped out Weapon Expertise.

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Moto Muck wrote:

Just to be clear on this- an unchained Monk cannot use Flurry and 2-weapon fighting in conjunction to gain more attacks- correct?

sorry if this a tangent

Unchained Monk wrote:

Flurry of Blows

At 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When making a flurry of blows, the monk can make one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus. This additional attack stacks with the bonus attacks from haste and other similar effects. When using this ability, the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality. He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what's already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects).

At 11th level, a monk can make an additional attack at his highest base attack bonus whenever he makes a flurry of blows. This stacks with the first attack from this ability and additional attacks from haste and similar effects.

That's correct. No TWF for extra attacks with flurry.

Finally found the post you made about pointing you to threads where it's been "no response required" and it wasn't just my faulty imagination/memory of such a post.

Instead of "no response required" how about "Answered in the FAQ" with no actual answer found anywhere?

Ethereal creatures, incorporeal or not? brings up a confusing situation of whether ethereal creatures count as incorporeal or not. It's an old thread but I think it came up when folks were wondering if ring of blinking would also grant wearers immunity to non-magic attacks, and a quasi-DR/magic (where the magic attack is only half damage) like with incorporeal creatures since the blink spell ethereal creatures are incorporeal, but spells like Ethereal Jaunt and Etherealness simply state insubstantial.

I wish Shifting Jerkin worked with Vigilante (and social) talents :(

From Mark's opinion on the matter, it does not help with donning or removing armor faster. So far there isn't anything in the writing of the Dual Identity to allow it (if the vigilante chooses to wear heavier armor without consideration of change time, it's his own choice/fault) nor has there been an official word on the matter changing it.

As for the actual time involved with example, it's 1 minute (by default) to change identities. After 1 minute, Stephen is Captain Andoran, but still out of uniform. One could say the minute change time included the first minute of changing into Scale Mail (so 3 additional minutes to don armor), or go for more conservative full 4 additional minutes. If one wants to quickly change back and forth between identities, one needs to invest in the right social talents AND magic/mundane equipment: magic illusions like hat of disguise or glamered armor, or something that'll allow to don/strip armor quickly (Iron Man might use a Folding Plate armor for example), or wear light enough armor that can be covered up by clothing (regular or tear-away versions depending on preference) without anyone complaining about it in the table. AND Stephen will need a way to carry around his shield during non-vigilante hours if he wants to keep that around him when needed.

If Stephen is always wearing scholar's robes, say he always buys them one or two sizes two large because he's not that stylish (Clark Kent does this with his business suits) and have scale armor underneath it. Or maybe invest in light armor (leather lamellar looks like scale, almost as good stat-wise but doesn't slow one down, and only 10 gp more) to wear underneath regular loose clothing for emergency quick changes and heavier ones when time isn't a factor. Maybe a establish a more rough-and-tumble lifestyle that he can warrant wearing generic scale armor during social identity and he can slap on "Andoran! F Yea!" decals on to armor as part of the Dual Identity minute change. Or if the scale armor is too much, say a fancy/casual looking armored coat that looks like a long robe (basically metal plates sewn into the lining of a robe instead of a coat) and have that on top of the scale armor and only a move action to remove the coat/robe and Captain Andoran is ready to bash or punch or kick or speechify his way to victory!

Sure. Bashing large shield = 1d8 weapon.

That's the new base damage of the shield that anyone picking it up would benefit from.

Close Weapon Mastery lets you swap the base damage of the shield (1d8) for level-scaling unarmed damage of the the brawler (with effective level-4) = 1d6 > 1d8 > 1d10 > 2d6 > 2d8 by level 20.

Close weapon mastery wouldn't interact with the bashing enchantment/shield spikes/impact shield because those are all effective size changes to the shield. Close weapon mastery doesn't care at all what happens to the shield, and uses its damage progression and replaces it altogether (if the brawler chooses to do so; could stick with the effective size changed shield instead of the unarmed damage).

It's more iffy when the shield is a Large (or bigger) sized shield, an actual size increase to the weapon. Would that count for using "Large brawler" damage? If so, then the weapon might have to use the Small or Large Brawler Unarmed Damage table in the brawler's Unarmed Strike class feature section. Such a case still needs to be clarified.

Hmm will have to think up the potential use of a medium armor armored coat that doesn't slow me down thanks to trait if I don't already have armor training or other "ignore medium armor speed reduction" class abilities. With the new feats and magic enhancements, will be in theorycrafting mode for a while.


Good things to probably have codifed! Renown is such a big part of the class that it would be nice to not have to fall under too much table variation.

Oxylepy wrote:
Right, so my WP build at 20th level with bashing spiked heavy shields does 3d6 and not the theoretocal 4d6, because spiked doesn't actually change the size and if it did it wouldn't stack with bashing. Useful.

Wasn't addressing your build as I didn't know what damage you were expecting to do by what level (X is not specific enough of a level number lol), but rather the build in the guide's table of expected damage. The advancement of 1d6 to 2d8 was incorrect even with the assumption that shield spikes stacked with bashing.

Not entirely related to the "guide's" build (since it's not that relevant due to lack of things stacking), besides highlighting a misunderstanding of when scaling damage to higher size from a small damage die:


If the size increases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and increase the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Small or lower (or is treated as Small or lower) or the initial damage is 1d6 or less, instead increase the damage by one step.

Damage Dice Progression Chart

So 1d6 going up one size larger becomes 1d8, then 2d6. Not 1d6 -> 1d10 -> 2d8.

While there's still plenty of debate between bashing and shield spikes (shield spikes and bashing both act as "effective size changes"), there isn't as much when it comes to stacking brawler's close weapon mastery with the bashing and or shield spikes. You can't.

Close Weapon Mastery wrote:
At 5th level, a brawler's damage with close weapons increases. When wielding a close weapon, she uses the unarmed strike damage of a brawler 4 levels lower instead of the base damage for that weapon (for example, a 5th-level Medium brawler wielding a punching dagger deals 1d6 points of damage instead of the weapon's normal 1d4). If the weapon normally deals more damage than this, its damage is unchanged. This ability does not affect any other aspect of the weapon. The brawler can decide to use the weapon's base damage instead of her adjusted unarmed strike damage—this must be declared before the attack roll is made.

If for whatever reason the shield does 2d8 damage (it shouldn't if it's still sized for medium character), that's the base damage of the close weapon. You use that base damage OR the close weapon mastery unarmed strike damage; a level 5 brawler's close weapon mastery would only do 1d6 damage (the level of a level 1 brawler's unarmed strike).

You also stacked impact with the bashing/shield spikes, and that's also another "effective size changes" that doesn't stack.

EDIT: Also I'd probably refer to this as simply a specific build that only uses material from the Core RPG line of materials (from what I can tell, just Core rulebook, APG, ACG, and UC). It's not so much a guide as it doesn't really go over other options (sticking with just the non-Golarion RPG stuff) such as regular fighter with regular Weapon Training + gloves of dueling, Ultimate Intrigue's Vigilante + lethal grace while finessing a light shield, straight brawler (with armor proficiency feats if that's deemed more viable than simply buying magic AC-enhancing items), warpriest with a shield as a sacred weapon, raging barbarian, etc.

While you still can edit your post, fix your link using this line:

[ url= ]Text for link [ /url ]
*take out space before and after the square brackets. Check out the "How to format your text button at bottom of the page.

Since I got a vested interest with shield bashing brawlers (been happily playing one in PFS for a while), I look forward to going over your guide.

David knott 242 wrote:
Protoman wrote:
I love the Mercenary League "Jacket Training" trait to treat armor coats as light armor! ALWAYS wanted to wear armor coat for more characters. Too bad it's still actually medium armor and I can't put Brawling on it.

Other than a Bard, Magus, or Summoner being able to cast spells while wearing this armor without risking arcane spell failure, what advantage does this trait actually grant?

Mainly wouldn't get slowed down, so I can finally use the armored coat's coolest feature of it can be worn on top of other armor and one would simply use whichever AC is higher without having to switch between higher or lower speed in the armor underneath the coat is light armor. Speed Reductions are always a giant bummer whenever I want to use the armored coat (it's simply used as emergency nearby armor when sleeping in case of night time ambushes. Or in my vigilante's case, mundane armored coat over magic light armor and only a move action to remove it. Plus can describe it as an armored longcoat for other characters, which is visually cooler than chainshirts or lamellar for me.

I think once the book comes out, rules questions are expected to go to the Rules forum.
Before the release date though with only subscribers getting the book pdf early, such questions in the Rules forum is kinda annoying/iffy. The majority of folks have no context to the rules for the question and it seems sorta faux pas to be copying and pasting rules text in the Rules forum before the release date when it's already frown upon in the product page discussion thread.

On other topic, finally got the PDF. I love the Mercenary League "Jacket Training" trait to treat armor coats as light armor! ALWAYS wanted to wear armor coat for more characters. Too bad it's still actually medium armor and I can't put Brawling on it.

ElementalXX wrote:
Does anybody know usually how much time it takes for companions to get implemented into PFS?

Anywhere from a within a day to 2 weeks? Dependent on how busy they are with other things.

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The full-round action is for the actual attempt to open locks. Getting the tools out of storage and ready for use is another action.


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It's been FAQ'ed for a while. Society Play has it's own FAQ section so it's good to check out first if there's any questions not answered in the Guild Guide.

FAQ wrote:

How do I determine hit points for my animal companion?

Animal companions receive average hit points per hit die. For d8, the average is 4.5. Multiply 4.5 times the number of hit dice your animal companion has and round down. Recalculate hit points for your companion each time it gains additional hit dice. After its hit points are calculated, add in appropriate bonuses from its Constitution modifier, feats, and so on.

But they definitely don't get max HP for the first HD since it wasn't a player class HD, but a racial one.

Sorry to necro, but has this ever actually got "Answered in the FAQ" or errata'd? PRD still has the same wording for both spells and I can't find an FAQ entry about it.

Mykull wrote:

QuidEst, I'd roll 4d6 for a greatsword if I were vital striking with it, that's true (and 6d6 for Improved, and 8d6 for Greater). But my question pertains to the mythic version of vital strike:

Vital Strike (Mythic)Whenever you use Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, multiply the Strength bonus, magic bonus, and other bonuses that would normally be multiplied on a critical hit by the number of weapon damage dice you roll for that feat.

I multiply the Strength bonus (in this case, +20) by the number of weapon damage dice I roll for that feat (the use of Greater Vital Strike).

I've maxed Improved Natural Attack (Bite), so the weapon damage dice of the dragon's bite is 12d6. When I use Greater Vital Strike, I roll 48d6.

So why don't I multiply 20 by 48?

Your Weapon Damage Dice (W) in your example is = 12d6.

The NUMBER of Weapon Damage Dice is measured by X. The formula would be = X(W); X is the actual number being referred to by Mythic Vital Strike. In your example, X = 4; 1 for regular Weapon Damage Dice, and another 3 for Greater Vital Strike.

Mythic Vital Strike is letting you add your modifier (C) a number of times equal to your number (X) of Weapon Damage Dice, whereas Vital Strike and even Greater Vital Strike only adds it once. X(W+C) with Mythic Vital Strike, rather than X(W)+C with regular Vital Strike line of feats.

Normal = W+C = 12d6+20
Vital Strike = X(W)+C = 2(12d6)+20
Improved Vital Strike = X(W)+C = 3(12d6)+20
Greater Vital Strike = X(W)+C = 4(12d6)+20
Mythic Vital Strike with Greater Vital Strike = X(W+C) = 4(12d6+20)

Also a great wyrm black dragon would have a 3d8 bite (the dragon is one size larger than the huge Ancient Black Dragon, thus gargantuan according to the Dragon Age Categories table). According to this FAQ and the Improved Natural Attack feat (which can only be taken once per natural attack), the damage only goes up to 4d8. I'm not sure how you're doing 12d6.
Are you adding the acid damage from the bite attack?
If so that doesn't get multiplied by Vital Strike and gets added independently.

EDIT: Oh I get it, you're probably using the stats from the D20pfsrd site and applying Improved Natural Attack repeatedly to bite. Well the site has a disclaimer that it's a homemade variant because the PRD only had Ancient Black Dragon as the biggest/oldenst black dragon example, and the variant was probably introduced from when the size increases changes weren't FAQ'd yet so the bite damage is off. And, unless you're playing with houserules, not supposed to apply Improved Natural Attack several times to a single natural attack.

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
A Wish would also likely work to remove an incident like this from people's memories, though you'd need to be very careful in your wording...

<cough> Spider-Man <cough> <cough> terrible <cough>

My vigilante's social identity has a carriage + driver to quickly change outfits and store heavier gear in if able to be conspicuous about it.

On hand, he's typically wearing light armor (strength-based so AC isn't the greatest) and specialized in unarmed combat specifically because of these reasons. He also sports plenty of light/one-handed weapons that don't seem too out of place for social identity to possess: iron brush, dagger, masterwork swordcane or club (walking cane).


Imbicatus wrote:
Are Tengu/Nagaji/Wayang/Kitsune being retired next season? I haven't seen any announcements.

I haven't seen anything indicative of that so far. The new Season 7 races don't seem very season-specific like the tiefling/aasimars did for season 5. Probably a "fear of missing the boat" thing from the OP.


It's more than just creating a PC. If it has no XP yet it doesn't mean anything. It needs XP for it to count, either as played or from GM credit. How much XP might change from season to season. Typically if you play it as a level 2 character (4 XP or 3.5 XP on slow track) it'll get locked in, both that you yourself aren't able to change it (usually) and PFS most likely won't say you can't play it anymore.

Pretty sure it wasn't a 3.0/3.5 Edition thing. I'd have abused it with my cleric back in the day if I had known of it.

Thanks, Mark!

Rennaivx wrote:
It gets x3 for being Large and a separate x2 for being a quadruped, for a total of 76x3x2=456 lb. That sound a bit better?

No it's just x3. The "large quadraped x3 modifier" already accounts for it being a large creature.

It is. A light horse is gonna be encumbered and slowed to 35 ft or so.

If you want a horse that's less encumbered, you're gonna need a heavy horse.

Mark Seifter wrote:
pinkycatcher wrote:

Got ya. That's what I thought, but some of it seemed mildly ambiguous and I didn't want to pressure my GM (or when I GM have someone pressure me) into giving the vigilante a free base of operations to expand on a whim.

Otherwise, super cool class, I can see how it might be a bit weak in a PFS adventure, but in some APs and homebrew it's pretty awesome.

A vigilante actually would probably objectively perform pretty well in a PFS adventure (if I recall, Protoman who posted earlier in this thread had some fun adventures with the playtest version, and in the final, we actually strengthened one of the vigilante talents in his build by a good amount for PFS levels), but you'd be likely to not be able to use some of your cool abilities to their fullest (or sometimes at all), which will probably give some people an unsatisfying feeling of "missing out" regardless of how good the performance with the remaining abilities was.

The Crimson Falcon is now way more punch happy and thanks you for it!

For PFS, it comes down to when and how you use your social talents.
Urban setting? Use social identity if you've set it up as being useful for RP and keep up with the sociable investigator or bard.
Dungeon crawl? Use the vigilante identity and be as effective in combat as any other martial/6 spell level caster (if using magic archetypes).
Stuck in a situation where you can't switch identities? Make sure the both identities got stuff to offer in and out of combat.

I made a bigger post about it here.

I'm not sure how useful a safe house would be, but just like with my Ship vanity for other characters, I'd take any opportunity to bring it up for the party to use if I had it.

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ZZTRaider wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
The point I was making is that the heaviest armor you can use is a chain shirt. You can't make a Brawling Mithral Breastplate because while mithral allows you to wear medium armor as if it were one category lighter, it is still actually medium armor for the purposes of what you can enchant it with.

Is there a specific ruling about that somewhere?

"Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. ... This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor."

What enchantments you put on the armor isn't a matter of the character's proficiency, so I'd expect it to fall firmly under the "other limitations", for which a mithral breastplate is considered light armor.

It got ruled upon in an FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Mithral armor: What exactly does it mean when it says mithral armor is counted as one category lighter for “other limitations?”

This means that mithral armor allows its wearer to use it when her own class features or special abilities demand her to wear lighter armor; in other words, the character wearing the armor is less limited. For example, a bard can cast spells in mithral breastplate without arcane spell failure, a barbarian can use her fast movement in mithral fullplate, a ranger can use his combat style in mithral fullplate, brawlers, swashbucklers, and gunslingers can keep their nimble bonus in mithral breastplate, rogues keep evasion in mithral breastplate, a brawler can flurry in mithral breastplate, characters without Endurance can sleep in mithral breastplate without becoming fatigued, and so on. It does not change the armor’s actual category, which means that you can still store a creature one size category larger in a hosteling mithral fullplate, and you can’t enhance a mithral breastplate with special abilities that require it to be light armor, like brawling (though you could enhance it with special abilities that require it to be medium armor), and so on.

Mithral doesn't change the actual type of armor, just some limitations when interacting with it. That's why proficiency and armor-type specific enhancements aren't affected.

minoritarian wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Has the whole gauntlets counting as unarmed strikes for weapon focus and effects been resolved yet? Or still undetermined. Somehow Hero Lab got convinced it did (probably from one of the older threads on it) and I don't know if I missed a ruling on it now that someone's mentioning unarmed + brawling armor right after talk of shield gauntlet style.

I just submitted a bug report as gauntlets can't even be chosen with weapon focus/signature weapon in hero lab.

(choosing unarmed strike with either doesn't affect gauntlets, nor do any traits that increase damage.)

From what I gathered Hero lab changed it on the Version 12.2 Update on Sept 2, 2015

Paizo has clarified that the Gauntlet weapon should not be a separate selection for things like the weapon focus feat, and is instead a modifier to unarmed strikes, so the deity Ng, whose favored weapon is the gauntlet, has been changed to favored weapon: unarmed strike (including the PFS rule that deities with unarmed strike as a favored weapon grant improved unarmed strike to their clerics as a bonus feat). Previously, followers of Ng could not take the Weapon of the Chosen feat tree because weapon focus (gauntlet) was not available in Hero Lab.

I still don't know what Paizo declared (if anything) actually clarified such a thing.

minoritarian wrote:
(choosing unarmed strike with either doesn't affect gauntlets, nor do any traits that increase damage.)

Really? It worked with Weapon Focus and Specialization on my Hero Lab. Did you set your identity to vigilante? Hero Lab currently doesn't grant the vigilante bonus feats (other than from Combat Skill) to the social identity.

Currently traits don't affect gauntlets, thankfully.

Also I noticed that equipping monk's robe increased the the damage dice of gauntlets in Hero Lab too.

Actually heaviest armor would be elven chain as that's still specifically light armor. Less useful for dexterity based character though. I'm not a fan of the price (5,150 gp) but for a strength based brawling vigilante, I was sort of boned AC-wise for several levels of only having an AC of 17 with only +1 brawling mithral chain. Needless to say, my vigilante got smacked around a lot.
Celestial armor is technically better with higher dexterity modifier and higher price, but I doubt I'd ever use it.

Woodoodoo wrote:
I was surprised there wasn't a "Extra vigilante talent" feat in ultimate intrigue. Although I guess the talents are quite a bit more powerful than feats.

There was definitely some griping about the lack of feat.

Has the whole gauntlets counting as unarmed strikes for weapon focus and effects been resolved yet? Or still undetermined. Somehow Hero Lab got convinced it did (probably from one of the older threads on it) and I don't know if I missed a ruling on it now that someone's mentioning unarmed + brawling armor right after talk of shield gauntlet style.

Well if it's simply a free action, combating mirror image would pretty much always be 50% miss chance from total concealment (less that with the right feats or abilities). One would simple close eyes before each attack and open them again afterwards. The only repercussion for such would be if enemies ready actions to attack while the character has eyes closed.

With blinded blade style, one can end up getting scent and blindsense or blindsight 30 ft when eyes are closed. If closing/opening eyes is a free action, one could simply be blinking repeatedly in a round to benefit from scent + blindsense/blindsight for close range and regular vision for long range. If that was the case, might as well have made those extra senses constant while in the style during your turn. End of turn would have to commit to opened or closed eyes though with a free action; or even out of turn if it ends up being not an action one could do outside your turn.

Back in 2010 there was quite a bit of pushback against simply closing eyes to negate the main advantages of mirror image. Sean K Reynolds left his input that to gain the "benefits" of being blind, if any depending on the situation, should at least be a move action and needing to remain that way for rest of the character's round. Granted that was 6 years ago and he was just stating his opinion the matter with no official ruling.

It'll have to be in a physical location, so the latter. But the details are up to the player and GM to work out I guess. You could say that the time it took to set up renown (or get the talent if you don't have renown) you spent the time secretly excavating/discovering a place big enough for the talent initially, and been expanding it per each level up.

Why would you need to? Gauntlets are already a weapon that do 1d3 (spiked gauntlets do 1d4) damage. No need to "shield bash" with it.

But if one's inclined to use two styles at once, would wanna level dip as a Master of Many Styles monk.

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Blinded Competence says the enemy's doesn't get total concealment, so that must means they get less than total concealment.
Blinded Competence's prerequisite Improved Blind-Fight allows one's "melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment."

So by Blinded Competence, there's no more concealment miss chance for melee attacks (except for specific cases). So sucks to be the invisible/mirror imaged/hiding in darkness/displaced/blurred creatures. Creatures with blink and ethereal are fine though because of whole other rules of "not actually being there to get hit in the face" when the attack comes.

That totally negates Greater Blind-Fight's "Your melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment, and you treat opponents with total concealment as if they had normal concealment (20% miss chance instead of 50%)."

But Greater Blind-Fight still has the "If you successfully pinpoint an invisible or hidden attacker, that attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you with ranged attacks, regardless of the range. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible."

Of course pinpointing enemy at greater range than Blinded Competence's blindsense can be an issue until Blinded Master's blindsight 30 ft. Blindsight essentially makes Greater Blind-Fight worthless within 30 ft. Greater Blind-Fight would only be still useful if one can pinpoint enemies beyond 30 ft to keep Dexterity bonus to AC from ranged attacks.

Overall I feel that Greater Blind-Fight becomes the biggest feat tax in the whole tree since it becomes mostly negated by earlier and later feat.

wraithstrike wrote:
Link to FAQ on opening or closing your eyes.

Awesome! Hopefully it won't take several years for a response.

Vanykrye wrote:

I agree that averting/closing your eyes shouldn't be an action, or at worst a free action, but getting the benefits of style feats always takes a swift action (barring MoMS benefits) for the benefits to apply, unless otherwise stated. I think that including the closed eyes wording alongside blindfolded as examples may have been a decision with unintended consequences.

Nowhere in the feat chain does it say you can gain the benefits of this style with anything less than the usual swift action for style feats. I think you have to assume the swift is going to be necessary, even if you're just closing your eyes. I would think of it more as a "close your eyes, relaxing exhale, focus" than just "closing your eyes" would usually imply.

Usually the swift action is done once, you stay in the style for rest of combat unless you spend another swift action to switch to another style. So even with eyes open, you're in the style but not benefiting from anything, much like how one enters Crane Style once with a swift action but not fighting defensively or using total defense so the style feats aren't doing anything yet.

Yes a FAQ! Anyone have any experience phrasing one that gets clicks?

Coooooool. Might go with this if I ever do an avenger vigilante in an AP.

Hmm ok. If free action I guess I could freely interchange between normal vision or enhanced non-visual senses during my turn, like maybe open eyes for movement towards distant ranged attacker, blinking repeatedly to ensure not walking into invisible attacker ambush. By end of the turn I gotta stick with one as no free actions outside my turn, open eyes vs distant ranged attackers present, closed eyes if aware of invisible enemies around. Works for me.

If you only got the first Shield Gauntlet Style feat and wielding two gauntlets but only attack with one in a round, do you keep the shield bonus from the other gauntlet or do you lose both?

Thanks all! Alrighty, so it looks like:

1) No conclusion.

2) Blinded Competence and Blinded Master would allow a PC to also detect objects along with creatures. General consensus seems to be that creatures was referred to in the abilities specifically so that one knows what to do for combat rules.

3) The scent's +8 to Percepton to smell and Blinded Blade Style's +4 bonus to smell-based Perception checks ought to stack.

4) The blindsense and blindsight from the feat tree is relying on several senses since a specific one wasn't mentioned so I won't have to worry about an individual tactic neutralizing it. Well besides Dampen Presense feat, but that's what scent is for I guess.

For 1) I'm still not convinced the open/close eyes would be a free action. I feel that in order to get the benefits of the feats, closing eyes to focus senses ought to some action economy, otherwise blinking back and forth between open and closed eyes would get me benefits of the feats and regular vision in the same round too easily which seems to go against the spirit of the feats. I'll suggest to GMs swift or move action for now. Hopefully something like this can get clarified better now that they've introduced a combat style around it.

Master of Many Style, or I guess Unarmed Fighter archetypes level dips definitely seem the most efficient ways to get the feat tree. Will have to consider it in the future. For now will stick with the vigilante levels as I've enjoyed playing it and wanting to benefit from all the social talents if I wanna keep using the Playtest Chronicle boons I earned while trying out some new vigilante talents.

Rylden wrote:
Actually if you take a dip into MoMs monk, you can pick up the first, Blinded Blade Style for free, and then progress through the feat chain without ever putting a rank into perception at all.

Excellent point! More things to think about for the rebuild!

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
A Whip has a reach of 15 feet, but only threatens 10 feet, and plus requires a fair bit of investment to make into a (fairly) powerful weapon of choice. It's like the melee version of a Crossbow, except the Whip can actually be powerful with the right build. Crossbows are just functional.

I'm not using the whip to threate, I'm using its reach for increased range on blindsense via Blinded Competence since it doesn't require the character to actually threaten anything for the range.


Anyway, the feat breakdown is simple:

Blind Style: No penalties to Strength and Dexterity skill checks for being blind. You receive a +4 bonus on Perception checks relying on hearing and smell, as well as the scent ability (10 feet), whose distance stacks with other scent abilities.

You must still make Perception checks to detect which square enemies are in (though the Scent ability allows you to automatically detect which square an adjacent creature is in), and you still suffer all other penalties related to the Blinded condition.


Throw in Improved Blind-Fight.

Benefit: Your melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment. You may still reroll your miss chance percentile roll for total concealment. If you successfully pinpoint an invisible or hidden attacker within 30 feet, that attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you with ranged attacks. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible.


Blind Competence: You no longer need to make Perception checks to detect which square enemies are in as long as they are in your melee range, as the Blindsense special ability. Creatures don't get Total Concealment if you can't see them.

This is perhaps about as useless a feat tax as Combat Expertise. It's actually worse because, unless you have a reach weapon, your Scent already does this same exact thing for you, and quite frankly all Blindsense does is eliminate the need for a check, and the factor that you don't get Total Concealment from an enemy you can't see (even though they're already perceived normally from the range you can attack from, meaning no concealment anyway) is damn near useless and impractical.

As explained in Ultimate Intrigue with Perception and Imprecise Senses:

Precise and Imprecise Senses:
Since Perception covers all senses, it is important to distinguish which of those senses count as observing a creature that is using Stealth. Some senses are more precise than others. Imprecise senses allow a creature to pinpoint the location of another creature, but they don’t allow for the use of targeted effects, and [b]attacks against those creatures are subject to miss chances from concealment. A few examples of imprecise senses are hearing, scent, blindsense, and tremorsense. A sense is precise if it allows the creature to use targeted effects on creatures and objects it senses, and to attack enemies without suffering a miss chance from concealment. This includes vision, touch, blindsight, and lifesense. Precise senses allow the creature to pinpoint an enemy’s location. When a creature uses a precise sense to observe an enemy, that enemy is unable to use Stealth against the observer unless it creates a distraction first, or has a special ability allowing it to do so. Senses other than the listed ones count as precise or imprecise at the GM’s discretion. A creature might have a limited form of a sense that makes it too weak to count as precise, such as a beast with primitive eyes that has difficulty seeing a creature that isn’t moving.

So even with scent or normal blindsense, one still has miss change even when the either of the two senses have pinpointed the adjacent invisible enemy.

Blinded Competence treats usual blindsense total concealment miss chance as less than total concealment, and Improved Blind-Fight (obtained earlier) lets one ignore the miss chance of less than total concealment. So Improved Blind-Fight wasn't invalidated, though Blinded Competence did invalidate Greater Blind-Fight somewhat (Greater Blind-Fight at this point does seem like a wasted feat in the whole chain).

The factor that you need over 5 feats and 15 ranks in Perception to gain something like this is pathetic, especially considering Improved and Greater Blind-Fight are actually weaker versions of this very feat (and become invalidated by the time you acquire it), and not to mention are invalidated by a very expensive (but almost invaluable) magic item.

You don't need that many ranks in Perception. You only need 5 ranks for the whole feat chain. The feat chain allows one to bypass the Perception rank prereqs past Blinded Blade Style entirely.

Blinded Blade Style = 10 Perception ranks for Improved Blind-Fight prereq and feats that have Improved Blind-Fight as a prereq, which Blinded Competence does.
Blinded Competence = 15 Perception ranks for Greater Blind-Fight prereqs and feats that have Greater Blind-Fight as a prereq, which Blinded Master does.

So a fighter or avenger vigilante could get it all by level 9, or level 7 or 8 if retraining some earlier unneeded feats.

If the template doesn't change the monster type, use the usual knowledge skills. The details of the template are still discovered by the knowledge skill and the check DC is already modified by the CR change from the template.

For example, giant template applied to a zombie is still undead.

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