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Cayden Cailean

Protoman's page

Goblin Squad Member. FullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 811 posts (814 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 6 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Maybe mutagenic mauler for brawlers would be more to the OP's speed. Seems to fit better.

Had to type in "flanking" for the search over at the Archives of Nethys, but maybe the OP meant, Split-Second Defense?

felinoel wrote:
I have no clue why but for some reason everyone always associates the Mr. Hyde build with alchemists, the bombslinger is a great build and if built right can be crazy overpowered and untouchable due to the range.

Thus the Green Goblin reference.

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Deflect Arrow basically tells the alchemist bomb to sit down and shut up. And if the alchemist complains, the monk tells him to shut up too while explaining that the Mr. Hyde/Green Goblin wannabe doesn't get to bring "logic" in this argument about his nice things are being taken away/nerfed due to rules. No one gets to make that argument against monks.

There's a new spear, the Elven branched spear, in the Melee Tactics Toolbox. An exotic weapon (martial for elves with weapon familiarity) that has the same damage and threat range/multiplier as a longspear; but it's finesseable and has an attack bonus for attacks of opportunities provoked by movement, making it pretty useful for high Dex + Combat Reflexes builds.

Get to create the elven prince from Hellboy 2, the best example of a melee Dex-based elven fighter I've ever seen in any media.

The +1 of magic armor doesn't affect the max dexterity bonus of the armor.

You take nonlethal damage AFTER taking burn.

If you take 4 burn, you take 4 x character level in nonlethal damage. The nonlethal damage can't be reduced by any means such as damage reduction, nonlethal damage reduction, magic. If one is immune to nonlethal damage, the burn mechanic is useless for that character and no positive benefits or negative consequences.

If you reduce the burn (such as with move-action gather energy) from 4 to 3, you only take 3 x character level in nonlethal damage.

If you want to two-hand Power Attack with the heavy shield, don't bother with Shield-Trained trait as it'll make you treat the shield as light and your damage gets hosed. ALL the classes you listed but brawler grants full martial weapon proficiency. The trait is only good for shield champions that aren't proficient with shields as weapons (as currently written pre-potential-errata) and for those hoping to TWF with it.

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Cap. Darling wrote:
Melil13 wrote:
And actually I like the idea of dipping fighter mutagen warrior better. Gives me a talent, prof, fort bump, at the cost of a few skill points.

My investigator was str based, versatile human and had a first level dip in tactican figther to get great sword, medium armor, and skill focus(linguistics) so he could get oratory at level 1 and dump cha with out being emperist:)

But to Day he would have been emperist and mutation warrior:)

I'm not sure you would have got orator at level 1. Versatile human gives up the human bonus feat. Tactician fighter loses the level 1 bonus feat. So first level feat would simply be Skill Focus.


trik wrote:
I was flipping through the Core book and I came across the Feather Token, the Fan variant in particular. That is now on my "must have" list to counter fogs and clouds, as well as other creative uses.

Fan (200 pg): A token that forms a huge flapping fan, causing a breeze of sufficient strength to propel one ship (about 25 mph). This wind is not cumulative with existing wind speed. The token can, however, be used to lessen existing winds, creating an area of relative calm or lighter winds (but wave size in a storm is not affected). The fan can be used for up to 8 hours. It does not function on land.

The "not function on land" part of the item description makes me thing it has rather limited opportunity for usefulness in PFS play.

Yes. What did you have in mind?


That's what the Noble Scion prestige class is for. Rich Parents is more like being a trust fund brat/baby.

I like Rich Parents.
I use it to buy a carriage and couple light horses. Then fiddle with the downtime rules for a constant driving team. Also some nice non-essential adventuring gear. Pavilion tent, folding table & chairs, and maybe a couple of decent locks. Add in party, and I got a mobile base. Like the TMNT Turtle Van.

I basically use it for some luxury items that once a player actually starts playing, would rarely buy because they're always saving up for the next magic item.

It USED to not have the "always" part.

Previously it was "as a 2nd-level paladin", and the agathion subtype specifically had: Lay on hands as a paladin whose level equals the agathion’s Hit Dice.

HOWEVER, the silvanshee got errata'd specifically with the "always as a 2nd-level paladin" so that the lay on hands ability would not scale BECAUSE they did not want such an ability available for a familiar.

LoneKnave wrote:

Why would an order of the hammer cavalier max out acrobatics?

Also, yeah, could use some context. Order of the hammer can build at least 2 ways (grappling monster luchadore and daring champion unarmed enforcer).

More for cinematic and anime samurai action feel since they get pretty great bonuses to jump.

I built a Daring Champion cavalier who finesses with a katana (thanks to Champion Finesse and Slashing Grace) to go for the light armor, fast moving samurai build that folks have been clamouring for ever since the sword saint archetype was a disappointment for such purposes. Being able to jump real great was an extreme advantage if GM/adventure ever implements interesting terrain features in combat.

You're gonna have to really elaborate on what you want for the character before anyone can give you build advice.

From the order choice, all anyone can tell you right now is to max out Acrobatics and have fun jumping/tumbling.

That's because the shield champion is a clear case of writing that makes it unproficient (and other issues that I won't get into). That case isn't missing text, but rather the wording for the archetype currently falls under current FAQ rulings that they aren't proficient with shields as weapons.

In the case of the mauler, it isn't clear which system is to be used, and the developer made an outright no-doubt statement that it is polymorph rules to be used when the mauler uses its supernatural effect battle form. If the writing indicated at all to use the monster advancement rules and THEN Mark had made his polymorph comment, then PFS would be stuck with monster advancement rules until his ruling goes into a blog or FAQ or the Additional Resources or Compton/Brock puts up a statement in the forums.

Also, table variation may occur when people don't know about the polymorph ruling, but a medium fox with 16-18 Strength at level 3 is easier for a PFS GM to take in than a medium fox with 20-22 Strength and the power attacking barbarian is going, "What the F?"

Melkiador wrote:
So, which size ruling would you use in pfs? Or just how official are Marks comments?

Go with Mark's polymorph ruling. That's probably as official as we're ever gonna get for a non-Core RPG book.

Polymorph effect was intended to be in the mauler's write up, as the battle form is a magical effect so should be using the polymorph rules. Well I believe so anyways. Anyhoo it's to be treated like the other polymorph effects such as wild shape or lycanthropy.

The monster advancement rules is more permanent changes to a monster either at creation or to make an existing creature permanently bigger/stronger, and the intention is that that isn't the case with mauler.

Ravingdork wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Issac Daneil wrote:

The fox is a tiny creature, and the size increases in the universal size chart for monsters has it gain 8 points of strength when it goes from Tiny to Small to Medium. Then, the Battle form gives it 2 Str. I was using a Human with Eye for Talent to give him +2 to Str at creation, and at lvl 3, the Mauler Familiar gains +1 to str

So, it's 9 (Base) + 8 (Size related, but not called a Size bonus) + 1 (Mauler's lvl) + 2 (Battle Form increase) + 2 (Eye for Talent) = 22

Mark Seifter clarified that Battle Form follows the polymorph rules so there isn't a benefit from small to medium.

So a fox would be:
9 base + 4 size + 1 mauler level + 2 battle form = 16. 18 with Eye for Talent.

And Mark Seifter would be wrong. Not only is there is nothing in the rules that support his interpretation whatsoever, but his clarification in this case actually creates more problems and gray areas.

Well his clarification was more of a, "Darn I totally meant to put the words 'polymorph effect' there for the archetype I wrote. My bad, peeps."

Rhedyn wrote:
Do familiars get feats based on their HD?


Issac Daneil wrote:

The fox is a tiny creature, and the size increases in the universal size chart for monsters has it gain 8 points of strength when it goes from Tiny to Small to Medium. Then, the Battle form gives it 2 Str. I was using a Human with Eye for Talent to give him +2 to Str at creation, and at lvl 3, the Mauler Familiar gains +1 to str

So, it's 9 (Base) + 8 (Size related, but not called a Size bonus) + 1 (Mauler's lvl) + 2 (Battle Form increase) + 2 (Eye for Talent) = 22

Mark Seifter clarified that Battle Form follows the polymorph rules so there isn't a benefit from small to medium.

So a fox would be:
9 base + 4 size + 1 mauler level + 2 battle form = 16. 18 with Eye for Talent.

The Kobold Quarterly magazine where those stats originated from (James Sutter wrote it, I believe) came out before Master of Devils. I doubt the monk levels were chosen for anything besides unarmed combat and not for any sort of in-character reason. The Charisma of 6 I'd assume were due to default tiefling ability adjustments and optimization purposes.

If Radovan was to be made now, brawler would be better.

It's referring to the rogue's advanced talent.

Play a few levels and determine for your play style if you'd need it.


Blackbot wrote:
The FAQ ruling is pretty vague though. Most people reading the forums know how it's MEANT, but the whole "In the rare instance of a wizard charging a fee" comes across more as a "You might meet someone in a scenario" or, even worse, "If a player wants to charge you..."

That's why most people, and the FAQ recommend it'd be done between games to not interrupt anything.

Player figures out the costs from CRB, writes the price of cost of spell in notes/ITS, shows GM his skill check/total from take 10 (cuz they blooody well can do that for Spellcraft).

Page 22 of the Guide to Organized Play eems to even imply players shouldn't even be charging for the book/services.

In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, you may never buy items from, sell items to, or trade items with another player. You may, however, allow another player to borrow an item for the duration of a scenario. You are also permitted to spend your character’s gold to help a party member purchase spellcasting services such as raise dead or remove disease.


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WilliamD763 wrote:
Protoman wrote:

Spellbooks and Learning New Spells.

Every time someone starts up playing a wizard/magus/alchemist for the first time in PFS, I gotta check how they've been adding extra spells to their spellbooks. More often than not, they've been buying scrolls and scribing the spells from that. Those players get confused/surprised when I gotta pull up the magic chapter and the scribing/spell obtaining costs are a fraction of what they're paying.

I have this issue but in reverse. I've only been playing a few months, but none of the 6 GMs I've played with allowed me to pay an NPC for spellbook access. They say this isn't allowed in PFS and that you have only two ways to get additional spells: 1. buy scrolls 2. copy from the spellbook of another PC who is running in the same adventure as you.

The last GM said that he had a 12th level wizard and had never heard of being allowed to pay an NPC for spellbook access.

Then there was the GM that said I couldn't take 10 when learning a spell from a scroll. Having to buy a new scroll for each failure gets expensive real fast.


OK direct them to this PFS FAQ ruling.

Specifically this part:

With either method, the GM should sign off on the spells gained (after witnessing successful skill checks) on affected players' chronicle sheets. All other methods of gaining new spells (such as by gaining a level or purchasing access to an NPC's spellbook) function as described in the Core Rulebook and relevant class descriptions.

In the rare instance of a wizard charging a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks, this fee is equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells do not change the fee in PFS.

For the taking 10 on spellcraft (DC 15+Spell Level) to scribe spell, point them to these threads.


Those GMs are prime examples of people having to be informed of the rules that this thread is referring to. Especially about parts of Taking 10.

Exactly, so not something you gotta worry about for quite a while.

Hmm level dipping just to rage cycle thanks to fatigue immunity? Sure. But follow Chess Pwn's suggestion and play with it a few levels first before committing to anything as intensive as a level dip. You can better determine how much you'd wanna be able to turn rage off/on whenever by actually having to manage it first.

Oh. No, that's fine.


Spellbooks and Learning New Spells.
Every time someone starts up playing a wizard/magus/alchemist for the first time in PFS, I gotta check how they've been adding extra spells to their spellbooks. More often than not, they've been buying scrolls and scribing the spells from that. Those players get confused/surprised when I gotta pull up the magic chapter and the scribing/spell obtaining costs are a fraction of what they're paying.


Additional Resouces and needing to own the books outside the Core Rulebook if one wants to use something.

When one can Take 10 or Take 20. Lots of people not letting me take 10 to swim in not-so-calm water, or climb rope, or jump a pit, escape bonds, or pick a lock outside of combat because of the "risk of negative consequences when failing" rather than caring about the "not in immediate danger or distracted" part of taking 10. Folks keep mixing up the Take 20's "When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure" requirements for Take 10.

Precise Shot and careful positioning for ranged attacks are important if one doesn't want buttload of penalties for the shot. Ranged combat is pretty strong as lot as those things are watched out for. Shooting into Melee is -4 to the attack. Cover grants the bonus to AC, not extra penalties to the attack. Cover is something the GM is supposed to be in charge of when determining if an attack hits, not an extra penalty to be thrown at the player.

Even though everyone is aware of each other and itching for a fight, once initiative is rolled, and someone hasn't acted yet, they are flat-footed. If someone initiated the fight by throwing a punch, that may be a surprise round, but if they roll low on overall initiative, folks are gonna recover mighty quick.

Readying an action does change the initiative order. If someone's readied action gets triggered, in subsequent rounds, his new initiative order is right before the target who triggered the readied action.

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As written, the Shield Champion has loads of issues.

RAI, the archetype was written by Jim Groves and he intended for the shield champion to also be proficient with shields as weapons.

However, RAW thanks to the way it's currently written and per the FAQ, shield champions aren't proficient with shields as weapons need workarounds in order to be. This is only an issue with Pathfinder Society games and crazy RAW-GM in home games.

Current ways around it:
Martial Weapon Proficiency (heavy shield) or (light shield). IMO this bites.
Worship Gorum and get the Shield-Trained trait. Hurts if you want the LG alignment for PFS. Otherwise, easiest. The trait also prevents you from benefiting from two-handing a heavy shield for 1.5 Str bonus and/or +3 dmg:-1 att Power Attack ratios as it forces you to treat a heavy shield as a light weapon.
Level dip in something that grants full martial weapon proficiency. I vote Emissary Cavalier. Can move in regular speed in medium armor.

HOWEVER, while the proficiency is an easy fix. The archetype suffers extra issues once you actually start playing it.

You get Shield Master as a bonus feat at 11, but you need to provide the pre-reqs first. You want Shield Slam? Well brawler's flurry provides TWF, BUT only while flurryng. So you can't use Shield Slam or Shield Master on charges, AoO's, standard action attacks; only while flurrying in melee or when flurry-throwing it.

When using the shield as a thrown weapon, it can be used in a flurry and it returns at end of your turn. It has wording that allows the thrown shield to attack new targets, but I'm not sure if it allows you to attack just one or two targets multiple times in a round with the thrown shield.

I posted up a bit of a rant/query about the action economy required to throw the shield and equipping it again with some hypothetical examples.

As of now, using a heavy shield is terrible for throwing purposes. Move action to unstrap the shield from arm. Standard action throw. It comes back at end of your turn. EVERY else's turn happens while you don't benefit from Shield AC because you didn't have the action to strap it back on.
IMO you'd need a light throwing quickdraw shield in order to make most of the shield champion's abilities. Throwing shield ability to unstrap shield as free action, quickdraw shield ability in order to strap the shield on as a free action. However the shield comes back and the END of your turn, so then your turn is over once you get your shield back and you wouldn't even be able to benefit from the shield AC again because you didn't have the opportunity to strap it back on.

? In what way were they in potential of being nerfed?

What Lune said.
I bring up "optimization", your words not mine, because the flavour of what you want to achieve can be done in loads of ways, and Titan Fighter is not a great one. I don't care about optimization, but when you come on the advice forums, at the very least folks will tell to you tips and traps to avoid so you can actually enjoy your character when it actually SUCCEEDS in tasks you envision for it.

I also started up a level 1 fighter for Rise of the Runelords just last month. Things are not a cake walk to hit.

Titan Fighter is bleh.

Assuming you got a 18 Strength:

Giant Weapon Wielder (Ex): At 1st level, a titan fighter can wield two-handed melee weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself, treating them as two-handed weapons. He takes an additional –2 penalty on attack rolls when using an oversized two-handed weapon. This ability replaces the fighter’s 1st level bonus feat.

A large greatsword (100 gp) does 3d6 damage. It's inappropriately sized for a titan fighter, -2 penalty. The titan fighter tacks on extra -2 penalty to use it at all. We can assume you'd wanna maximize your chances of hitting after the drastic -4 penalty from size issues, so you'd pick up Weapon Focus (greatsword). And let's say Power Attack.

+2 to hit = 3d6+6 damage. Average of 16.5.
Power Attacking = +1 attack, 3d6+9 (average 19.5)

Regular greatsword with same feats.
+6 to hit = 2d6+6 (average 13). Power Attacking = +5 to hit, 2d6+9 (average 16).
Heck regular fighters have a bonus feat, so can get Furious Focus at level 1 for a =6 to hit while power attacking.

If you're cool starting off with the accuracy of NPC warrior with 12 Strength with good feats and high damage potential (well only 3.5 points higher than regular fighter), then sure as you level up the penalties to hit gets reduced. You'd want to invest in Vital Strike chain to take advantage of all the dice.
Regular fighter (or any other Full BAB class) would have to simply to resort to full attacking for several applications of full 1.5xStr modifier to damage, Weapon Training with gloves of dueling, and probably moving at full speed to keep up with all the giant-sized creatures you'd be hunting.

Don't bother with Titan Fighter. You'd lose more than you gain compared to normal fighter.

Maybe you'd wanna check out the Slayer class as it looks to be a more versatile fighter.

Way more survivable!

What armor do you plan on having?

zanbato13 wrote:
...that post says 2011? And what about older characters with that combo?

Look at the one below it?

FAQ wrote:

Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Only if the pre-requisite calls out the name of a spell explicitly. For instance, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat. However, the barghest's dimension door would not meet requirements such as "Ability to cast 4th level spells" or "Ability to cast arcane spells".

posted Wed, Feb 18, 2015

All the older characters with that combo got invalidated.

Here's a PFS ruling PFS if that's what you're caring about.

For Arcane Strike:

John Compton wrote:
•A character who has a non-class option for which he qualified using a spell-like ability in place of standard spellcasting ability must retrain those features and any features that rely on them as prerequisites (e.g. Arcane Strike and Bloodied Arcane Strike) at no cost.

I second Chess Pwn's suggestion for Raging Vitality. Swap out Elven Spirit (Envoy) for it as it basically doesn't let you do what you want it to anymore. A barbarian without Raging Vitality is like a crummy smartphone battery that dies way faster than advertised. If you're raging and go into negatives, you end rage and lose your extra rage hitpoints immediately and that can usually spell autodeath at anything higher level than 3 or 4.

You should get Strength Surge rage power to really ensure your spell sunder hits.

Recent FAQ ruling removed that option for SLA's qualifying for Arcane Strike and others that are simply "Ability to cast arcane spells" and the like.

This is pretty relevant for my eldritch guardian fighter that picked up Improved Unarmed Strike. I share my combat feats with my fox mauler familiar so I was wondering if it'd be getting a 1d3 unarmed attack option that can benefit from the Full BAB being provided by the fighter master.

Maybe this would help?

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OK for those that believe mithral breastplate doesn't apply for brawling enchantment, here's a question:

Does the Defender of the Society trait work for mithral breastplate?

Bracers of armor was ruled to not count as armor.

The only other instance when something calls for something specifically to be light armor besides proficiency that I can recall is arcane spell failure for classes like bard, summoner, and magus. General consensus (well I haven't found anything on the boards naysaying it) is that mithral chainshirt/breastplate/kikko counts as light armor for the ignoring ASF of those classes; so I'd see it working with brawling armor just fine.


Ouch. Well good to know.


What about a case if the OP's paladin had a religion trait specific to Iomedae? When changing gods, that trait would be illegal and there's no rules in the Ultimate Campaign book for retraining traits. Would there now be an empty trait slot?


So hypothetical situation if the Advanced Class Guide errata ever comes out and shield champion brawlers are officially proficient with shields as both weapons and defensive items (normal use of shields), what happens to those shield champions who currently have to go the extra mile to be proficient with shields in order to use the archetype as intended?

If the shield champion picked up Martial Weapon Proficiency (heavy shield) or (light shield), or worhipping Gorum only for the shield-trained trait (which isn't great for two-handing a shield), would the potential errata count enough as the class changing and a player is allowed to rebuilt the shield champion to be more in line with new rules?


The bug looks like the dash '-' is too narrow compared to all the other scenarios. Well I'm guessing that's why it's showing up on wrong order for Product Name. For oldest-newest, I got no explanation. Also probably not really important, the zip file download includes the dash in the file name whereas all the other scenarios don't.

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