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Prawn's page

329 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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In tonight's game, we were in a trapped, flooding room. We cast rope trick and swam up inside, like a diving bell.

Thanks for putting this together! We finished a campaign tonight, and rolled up new characters for an e6 game I will start DMing next week using core + the codex.


Arise, thread! Arise and live!

Would these rules apply for another SU ability like two channel energies at the same time?

These rules come from the section on Combining Magical Effects. Smite seems like a magical effects, so that seems like it fits. But the specific language references spells, which brings up the question, does this apply to other magical abilities that are not spells?

@skylancer4: Aura is a 10 radius. You could easily get the whole party, and if you are on your horse, the horse gets it automatically.

@Avianfoo: I don't buy that they are different powers.

My question is, assuming they are the same, would the horse's power stack with the power he gets from his master's aura?

Gotcha. There are advantages to the paladin activating it twice if he is fighting certain opponents. Against evil outsiders, dragons, etc, he gets double his level in damage on the first hit of the smite, so if he has smites to burn, he could resmite the same person and get double damage again on the first strike of the new smite. Not a thing to do if you are running out of smites, but it would be useful sometimes.

I'm not trying to squeeze out the numbers, just trying to figure out what my 11th level Pally can do with his newly celestial mount. Neither has smite Chaos. What would that look like, anyway? Telling the monster to clean up his room?

wraithstrike, the aura uses the paladin's level, while the smite evil uses the horses HD, so the vaules will be different. I can understand the argrument for only the highest one working.

Skylancer4, you raise an interesting issue, but there is always more than one round in a game. The horse could activate his and then the next round, the paladin could turn on the aura. I don't see that as an issue. Claxon seems to be saying that even though the bonuses are untyped and might stack RAW, since the Aura is like a smite, they come from the same source, and should not stack. Avianfoo says they should stack because they are untyped. Both positions seem defensible. Is it back to a coin toss then?

Okay then, here are both sides of the argument. The aura either stacks with the horse's smite evil he gets from being celestial or it doesn't. Any rules we can bring to bear, or it is a coin toss?

I am happy to agree, but it seems cheesy. What if you had two paladins, could they Aura of Courage each other and then activate their own smite? Seems possible to double dip this way, although it's not what I am going for. Any body else want to weigh in?

Aura of Courage lets me share the pally's smite with his mount, using the paladin's bonus. The mount has the celestial template, so gets a smite with his own HD to damage once a day.

If they both smite the same target, the smite is coming from different sources. Does the mount get his own smite and the pally's smite, or would only the highest one apply?

I am confused since they are from different sources, and although it seems like it should be a sacred bonus, it is an untyped bonus.


I know that multiple people can join a grapple, so several people can pile on to subdue someone.

What if a monster grabs PC 1, can PC 2 join the grapple to free him, or is he limited to simply attacking the monster?

I know you can always aid another for +2, but that doesn't seem as much help as piling on the monster should be. I don't want to reverse the grapple, just have party members try and help free PC 1.

Thanks for the response! That is kind of what I was thinking to get the AoO. Of those, kick works best thematically, but it's not worth a feat, so I guess I will go with boot blade.

Anyone want to speculate why this post still has gotten no love a day after is was posted? Is there something silly about the question or something?

Let's say I am armed with a lance, and my mount has greater overrun (see below for the feat). We charge, knocking an opponent down, provoking on AoO from us both (we will ride on through, but that isn't really relevant to my question). My horse hits the guy with a hoof, but I don't think I can get an AoO because I am wielding a reach weapon and the opponent is adjacent.

What can I do so that I benefit from that AoO?

I think armor spikes will do it, but I don't like the flavor of that since I am on a horse and the opponent is prone.

I couldn't kick him as an AoO because I don't think natural weapons threaten unless I have the improved unarmed combat feat.

Would a blade boot work? I like the flavor of that better, and it is on my foot, which is close to the opponent. Is there anything else I can do so that I benefit from that AoO?


Here's the feat:
Greater Overrun (Combat)
Enemies must dive to avoid your dangerous move.

Prerequisites: Improved Overrun, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6, Str 13.

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrun a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Overrun. Whenever you overrun opponents, they provoke attacks of opportunity if they are knocked prone by your overrun.

Normal: Creatures knocked prone by your overrun do not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Here's the blade boot:
Blade Boot
Blade boots come with a spring-mounted knife that pops out when triggered with the right combination of toe presses.

Benefit: You can use a blade boot as an off-hand weapon.

Action: Releasing the knife is a swift action; rearming it is a full-round action.

Drawback: When the blade is extended, you treat normal terrain as difficult and difficult terrain as impassable.

Aren't they poisonous? Wouldn't the DC of their posion change?

I think in 1e, there was a table with speed factors and how different weapons fared against different types of armor. At that point there were tactical reasons beyond damage for every single weapons choice.

And it all gets multipled on a crit or a charge as well!

I've seen dogs that were trained to bring you a beer.

@ Gustavo: Well, a paladin's mount has INT 7, so it can take ranks in anything, including perform.

I dunno, Googleshng, yes he bit the dude, but he bit him and then knocked him prone. Is knocking someone prone usually part of a bite attack? If horses don't have grapple, they've got trip.

Horse knocked dude prone! Too bad the horse didn't have the trample feat.

My character's horse won't go there. She's a mare named Buttercup.

Is that what comes after the pin?

I agree that prone is not grappled, but if a big horse is standing next to someone who is prone, an obvious question is: can it grapple them?

The mount in question has improved overrun, so he knocks them down and generally stops adjacent to take advantage of the AoO when they get up. Seems like he could stand on them and pin them, which would require a grapple roll.

They can overrun, and once someone is prone, seems like they could try and pin them with a hoof, but they don't have grabby parts. Without the feat, it would provoke and AoO, but is there a rule against horses grappling? If it makes a difference, in our game we are talking about a Paladin's mount, so he has INT 7.

I didn't ask about an unwilling target, I asked about an unconscious subject. Grapple isn't what we are looking for here.

That makes sense. Seems like you could handle it with the AC of the object or the DC of the ride roll, but either way, something small should be harder to grab. But check out this trick rider, in this 17 sec video, she's picking something up while hanging upside down by one leg from her moving horse! It's called the Cossak drag.

I like the touch attack vs the object. DC 20 seems about right. Thanks for the input. If it comes up again, I might suggest this to the DM.

So you are talking three or four rounds for an unconscious ally. I might agree if I were picking up someone heavy. In the video, the guy leans over from his horse and scoops the goat up off the ground and rides off with it. It it clearly possible in real life, and my character has 16 in ride. Seems like there out to be a DC that would let me attempt it in one round, even if the DC is high. I am a strong human, picking up a 35 halfling. Should be possible for an expert rider, or in game terms, someone with the right ranks and feats.

What would the DC be to ride by and pick up a willing ally? It seems to happen in every western movie, whenever someone's horse gets shot. Would it require feats? How much harder would it be if the guy you were picking up didn't have a readied action to help?

What about to ride by and pick an unconscious ally up off the ground? Like at 2:06 of this video, where Rambo picks up the goat:

I wanted to do that in last night's game to a halfling that was knocked out and was in danger, but I couldn't figure it how it would work, rules-wise.

I think any bonus to hit would be a bonus to CMB if you use the weapon to do the maneuver, for example trip. Is there an enchantment which raises CMB in general? You don't always use a weapon to do combat manuvers, so I am not sure when it would apply.

Thanks! That must have been what I was thinking of. I guess there is no "offensive combat training" equivalent, but I think some classes can use level instead of CMB, Monks and Oracles for example.

It's actually a mount for a Paladin. It is a horse, and they have high str. If I could add str and dex, that would help, but swapping str for dex would lower the mount's cmb.

Specifically I want to up the CMB of an animal companion.

Martiln wrote:
Prawn wrote:

Also Improved Overun, which says they don't have the option to let you thru when you overrun. Seems like sometimes you would want to give them the option to let you through.

Then just move normally through their square?

The way the feat is written, they lose the option to simply step aside. If you lose the CMB roll, you stop in the square you are in, and can't continue. Seems like there might be times, say if you are charging a giant, where it would be advantageous not to have to make the CMB roll.

Also Improved Overun, which says they don't have the option to let you thru when you overrun. Seems like sometimes you would want to give them the option to let you through.

Whale_Cancer wrote:

Jesus wasn't the only one with charisms.

Yes, it was common place at the time, and many believe it still is, but if the most famous person to do it only laid on hands seven times in his twenty-seven healing miracles, I don't think appealing to this tradition has much bearing on the argument at hand, other than to say you don't need to touch someone to heal them in the biblical tradition.

Whale_Cancer wrote:

This ability, like many cleric/paladin spells/abilities, is based on the charisms (gifts from the Abrahamic god). Specifically, the gift of healing which requires the laying on of hands. \

Nope. There were twenty seven healing miracles of Jesus. Only seven involved laying of hands:

So you can't really use this as part of the argument for a tradition of laying on hands. You're better off citing Gygax.

And let me add something from a non-rules perspective.

It's just plain cool. I like the idea of the holy warrior, literally grappling with the forces of evil, calling on his god to help him. Grick may be right based on a strict argument of the rules, but I'd allow it because it's frickin' cool.

Grick, thanks for looking through the threads. I went through and read them as well. The consensus was that you need a hand that you can touch with, more specifically, one that doesn't have a sword or shield hand. You need an empty hand. This isn't the same as a "free" hand, as in a hand that isn't restricted. I'd still allow a Pally to LoH in a grapple. I might require a concentration check or perhaps a DEX check, but I'd allow it. "free" here means empty. Now if you were grappled and had weapons you couldn't drop (like in a locked gauntlet or something) I would not allow it.

Grick wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
May I make a suggestion? Do a search for paladin using lay on hands on himself as that topic has been covered already too and gets down to the crux of the matter.


Result 1: Lay on Hands. Consensus: Free hand required.

Result 2: Does Paladin need an empty hand to Lay on Hands? Consensus: Free hand required.

Result 3: Paladin Lay on Hands a Channel Energy. Does not address hands.

Result 4: Lay on Hands, free hand? Consensus: Free hand required. House rules suggested.

Result 5: Channeling and Lay on Hands. Does not address hands.

Result 6: Two Weapon Fighting Paladin and Lay on Hands. Consensus: Free hand required.

Result 7: Lay on hands with two weapons. Consensus: Free hand required.

Result 8: Lay on Hands + Fey Foundling. Does not address hands.

Result 9: Lay on Hands can only be used on allies? Does not address hands.

Result 10: Lay on hands on self twice per round? Does not address hands.

Maybe instead, if you had something specific in mind, you could just tell me?

But again, a free hand doesn't have to mean not restricted, it could mean empty.

Does that mean that Paladins have to have hands? If an intelligent creature like a unicorn or a couatl took Paladin levels, would you tell them they couldn't LoH because they didn't have hands?

I don't think so. Lay on hands doesn't have to have such a literal meaning.

You maybe right, but let's talk about it:


A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

So on the one hand it says you can't move, but on the other hand, it says you can attempt a CMB or Escape Artist check to try and break free, and those must involve movement. It certainly isn't a struggle of mental will. It also says you can cast spells with a concentration check, which presumably involves some movement.

Under Paladin, it says, "Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability."

This might mean you can't have a weapon in both hands. And the free here might mean "empty." Like you need a hand empty of a weapon or shield etc.

At the very least, if it is possible to cast a spell with a concentration check, it should be possible to LoH with a concentration check.

As a DM, I'd allow a pinned Paladin to LoH. I'd make him roll to add tension, but I'd let him do it.

Does LoH require concentration? Can it be disrupted? Does it provoke?

Seems like there ought to be a Spirited Charge for brace weapons, sort of like, if you have the feat and you brace, you could get x3 damage instead of x2.

Also at that level, you have more than one smite, so if the banishment doesn't work, rinse and repeat.

blackbloodtroll wrote:
this is caveat to wielding a flail strapped to your junk.

I think a raging, Phallus totem barbarian should be able to do this.

Assuming the barbarian is male.

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