Abraham spalding wrote:
Same diff really.
your either adding a bunch of special rules to augment existing spells to perform at an adequate level
considering they've stated they're looking into a bloodrager spell list I'd say they're just going to create spell that will simply bypass the limitations of existing level 1-4 spells. or spells that will augment melee attacks (although this is starting to tread on the magus)
Also there one other issue of the ole globe of invulnerability which would effectively negate any offensive spells a bloodrager might want to throw.
christos gurd wrote:
@SUZ, However finding a class with 2 capstone abilities regardless of it's source seems over powered.
Capstones should never factor into class comparisons because the majority of people will never use them. If you do ever get the play your character at 20th its invariable for only a short period of time, long enough to feel godly before everyone gets bored and wants to start a new campaign.
the problem with a spell level 1-4 caster is the spells don't have the DC's to make effective offensive spells by the time you access them.
so either they self target and buff ...boring or you give them a bunch of attack roll no save spells where the DC doesn't factor in.
instead of giving them a spell list you give them access to a large suite of spell like abilities that have increasing DC's with hit dice.
either way its a cool class purely as a full BAB CHA class would make a fun mouth of the party.
For this one you'll have to be using Mythic rules but its fun
Mythic Hexes (Misfortune) and Mythic Ill Omen + Coupled Arcana
Mythic Misfortune hits and automatically causes reroll to all d20 rolls for one round no save. Then coupled arcana lets you fire off a mythic ill omen which adds an additional 2 rerolls and then fire off an arcane surge (another save reroll) with whatever spell you really want to land a save or die like Phantasmal Killer would be appropriate.
And the creature in a single round will have to roll 5d20's and use the lowest to save against the save or die/suck spell you threw at the end of the sequence.
I like those odds ;)
I really want to try a life Oracle/Barb/Rage Prophet with this line of thought. Sadly Rage Prophet is pretty bad (you can get higher lvl spells and better BaB with simply a Oracle/Barb multiclass.) Still there might be something workable with this idea. I would have to give it a closer look then I have time for right now.
Rage Prophet is a trap ;)
it'll always fall short of your expectations, I mean it works...kinda, but ...yeah .
why wouldn't it ?
Limp Lash and Aqueous Orb
shame everything except your head is paralysed and that's covered in water. Oh and your constitution ? well its being reduced by 1d6 each round . Oh your needed your constitution to hold your breath, oooo my bad you might actually suffocate in a few rounds then.
And you know Black Tentacles , well I don't think its quite good enough for the above combos, how bout Mythic Black Tentacles instead ? Double attacks per round and another 2d6 acid damage I feel that fixes this underpowered spell ;)
I do enjoy the arbitrary nature of oh no you can't do this ridiculous thing because someone cared to errata it...but THIS ridiculous thing well its just fine as it went unnoticed to date.
Balancing ... makes me laugh sometimes ;)
oh that's easy fixed, set the wall 1mm above the ground plenty of space of the flesh to spread out underneath :D
Fun game but when I set-up a new scenario I look at the list of locations and feel like I'm missing out using only 4 of 8 locations with 2 characters.
Now short of running 3 characters each there's no easy way to change that. However I'm thinking there might be some work arounds perhaps ?
The issues off the top of my head
Now there's quite a few things we can play around with to compensate less characters.
- Allow players to play 2 of each card type from their hand instead of 1
Of course the problem is when you start messing around with core mechanics that you break something and make things too easy.
The only other thing I could think of is to break up the scenarios into multiple parts with the villain in the final part.
Think of it like being able to grab a short rest in the middle of the encounter. The short rest would give you the following
Any other ideas ?
interesting you make your players roll every dice to bog down your game with dice rolling over role playing ..... k ..... can't say it's the way I like to play but hey each to their own.
Perhaps you can list 5 common situations where grease is as good or superior to a lv8-9 spell in combat ? Why ? because I'd like to know when would a level one spell work in the place of a lv8-9 spell.
grease is good from level 1 to 20. Even the mighty CLW wand is reduced to pixie stick snacks at level 20. 1d8+1 trying to heal 200 points of damage is funny to watch. A well timed grease can prevent that 200 points from ever happening.
heh I wouldn't exactly say healing 200HP of wound with CLW wand is funny, more something I'd simply hand wave, you burn out the wand and heal 275HP over 5 minutes, there no way I'd actually make someone roll for it at that level.
Grease is a cool spell, but you'd have to have a seriously advantageous situation to be casting grease over level 8-9 I win spells.
1st level spell for alchemist 1, cleric 1, oracle 1, druid 1, ranger 1, sorcerer 1, wizard 1, summoner 1
Triples carrying capacity for 2hrs per level
Wand of Ant Haul would cost 750gp or 375 crafted and offer 100 hours of triple carry capacity, that's a mere 7.5gp per hour. Or Free with any of the above casters above level 4
You know the OP never said best Wizard spell ;)
Best first level spell by far is one that's used FAR more often than any spell listed so far. Not to mentioned a spell that see's heavy use into the mid and even late game.
CURE LIGHT WOUNDS
Of course that's too reactive for some people but things like Litany of Sloth, Gravity Bow and Lead Blades are pretty strong 1st level spell choices ;)
If your GM is going to be handing out Mythic levels then Vital Strike becomes viable, otherwise its going to leave you disappointed. Unless of course the rest of your group is running sub optimal in which case your fit right in and have a great ole time.
But there's really no optimizing with vital strike, just get biggest weapon dice and BAB possible and have at it. it combines with so little there really not much more to say.
If anything vital strike is for natural attackers with single huge attacks.Wild shape into a Tyrannosaur and go to town ;)
These lines from the rules suggest no
paralyzed "unable to move or act"
Channel "This is a standard action"
Channel "A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability"
having your symbol visible is not the same as presenting it. GM could also simply rule that the position you were in when you were paralyzed partially concealed your holy symbol thus it is not fully presented.
Think of it like Barbarian rage.
if you drop in and out of rage you get fatigued, if your immune to fatigue via e.g. lame Oracle curse then you could do it all day with no ill effect.
In fact oracle curses improves at half HD if your taking non oracle levels so your fatigue immune by level 9 with only 1 oracle level
Perhaps you should ask what your actually trying to achieve with this.
If it just for the hell of it you might find the novelty wears thin pretty quickly.
I've played in a game like this before using the Marvel Heroes RPG system. it works well when the characters are VERY defined, Hulk, Iron Man etc and then it becomes fun to see how different people play known Heroes. I played Colossus with Sean Connery accent and a Creepy Perverted Spider man.
Its fun for a laugh but it rarely leads to any serious or interesting roleplay.
As far as doing it with blank slate characters players like to have ownership over their characters once a campaign has started and forcing people to roleplay a certain type of character may be difficult for them and create less roleplay not more as they remain silent for most of the session.
Might I suggested this instead.
Create a pool of characters double or triple what you need (you can have players put some together for each other too). Then spend an entire session with players picking up various character sheets reading them and then introducing themselves in character. Have some set questions for them to answer in character and some hypothetical situations for them to react to in character.
Then each player votes for each of their favorite characters as played by player X, Y, Z. Tally the votes and you get the character that other players voted they best liked you playing, ties are decided by the player who will play them.
You keep your voted character for the entire campaign so you can make it your own but its chosen for you by what others enjoyed your roleplaying as.
Same place in the description of supernatural abilities it states that it does require hand movements or vocal sounds.
If you want to add an additional layer of complexity then that's your prerogative.
The simply fact is you have to draw the line somewhere when it comes to rules otherwise you could create an infinitely large rule set to cover every conceivable instance where something can or can't be done.
Things like this are exactly why a GM exists, because no rule set can cover every situation.
Probably why I'm enjoy an Edge of the empire game at the moment along side my pathfinder game. its a nice change not to have everything spelled out in the rules so the GM can rule as makes sense to him rather than forever looking up rules and errata.
But if someone tore a witches voice box out they could still laugh cackle but you wouldn't hear a sound. See if you make it require sound then what arbitrates how much sound and how needs to hear, can a witch cackle underwater, can they cackle in the zone of a silence spell. As soon as you start making exceptions to general rules you start needing more exceptions. Surely its just easier to say a witch can always cackle.
Alexander Augunas wrote:
I see what your doing and it certainly a good option for having cohorts. I think what I'm trying to do is more fully incorporate them into the campaign so they at at risk while giving their reward.
e.g. If someone makes a craft monkey I would want that craft monkey to be in many of the groups combat encounters/dungeon crawls and at therefore at risk.
this is also the same reason I would like to bring followers closer to the front line where the PC will need to protect them to get any benefit from them.
I also like the idea that by giving a PC an ever growing pile of followers they'll probably take ownership of them so as a GM you've got an easy string to pull when you want to give PC tough choices.
An equal amount of benefit and burden if possible.
As this is also a campaign concept I'd be very up front with players about how cohorts and followers may play a roll over the course of the campaign so they are making a somewhat informed choice when designing their PC and cohort.
Thanks for the advice
Rule 2 I figure could be handled by simply having a flip token for a standard action for each player once flipped it used that way no need to track which character has used it. tokens all flip back at start of new round.
Rule 3: yes, and you'd need to explain to players this is designed to help resolve larger fighter faster which although may be detrimental to individual characters is beneficial to players being able to resolve fights faster. You'll notice the withdraw rules only apply to non Heroes . Also if a hero gets healed back above 25% they can use std actions again. Finally with full HP and these rules Heroic characters still have 75% of max HP before they suffer any effect which is what most games normally run.
Rule 4; I personally would give it for free , but it would be up to the individual GM.
Again Thanks for the tips
Leadership is a broken feat this we all know, but that doesn't mean its an unusable feat under the right conditions.
In the right campaign giving all players the leadership feat somewhat levels the playing field. And if the GM knows everyone is going to have a cohort going in then he can plan accordingly.
List of House Rules
Rule 1: Cohorts can be gained one of three ways.
(If the unusual cohort would require a character level above your current to take you can’t take it yet and since you can only scratch create one cohort you would have to wait and use one of the other methods for your cohort until then. Cohorts released to make room for scratch created cohorts become GM controlled NPC who might not be happy about getting the arse and will take any gear they’ve been using with them. Perhaps even steal some items of gold as they go.
Rule 2: During a round of combat each PLAYER may only perform one standard action across all his cohorts, familiars, companions, summoned creatures. He may however give them all move and swift actions. all characters threaten and flank and may take AoO’s
Rule 3: All characters get full HP, with the following changes.
1) All Characters at Critical health (25% or less) lose the ability to take standard actions
2) All non-heroic characters, cohorts animal companions etc at moderate health (50% or less) lose the ability to take standard actions but can still perform a double move and still threaten and flank.
3) All non-heroic characters,cohorts animal companions etc at critical health (~25% or less) must make a DC 10+(the fights CR) or retreat to a safe distance using either withdrawal or double moves once they are beyond the run range of the nearest enemy or ally they are removed from the fight.(Mounts may use their riders handle animal or ride check if better than their will save)
The GM may wish to use these rules from most of his monsters, advise that mindless, fearless or most BBEG’s should probably be immune to this rule.
(Reasons for Rule 3: starts to thin out a fight at ½ HP , creates some realism of secondary characters withdrawing when injured as they’re not all heroes. having damaged characters retreat instead of fall down make the chance to retreat actually possible. and help end larger fights other than with 100% death on one side)
Rule 4: All characters either get leadership for free or MUST take leadership as their 7th level feat GM choice. As a result all players will have one cohort and followers eventually this is bound to lead to cohort and follower attrition.
1) Followers are gained at the rate of 1 per week per character up to their maximum. The type and race of follower should be appropriate to the region during that week. keep a basic list of Race/NPC class level.
2) If the GM decides an area is suitable to gather followers the PC can spend 1 week uninterrupted gathering followers from the area to gain up to his maximum number of followers. Again followers should be of a race/npc class suitable to the area. The is no roll required for this it would needlessly bog down the process.
3) Followers when gained join the group and travel with the group until they are dropped off at a home base of one exists otherwise they stay with the group as logistical support, they can be killed if the “caravan” of followers is ambushed by GM but usually stay back as PC ride out to meet foes ahead of the column they also set up camp outside caves and dungeons and don’t enter. They can be left in camps or towns should the group want to fast travel/teleport but each PC will lose 1d4 followers from a group of followers left behind per week +1d4 per additional week each week unless they are based in a permanent “home base”. If a cohort is left with the followers the exodus is reduced from weekly to monthly.
4) When a PC’s cohort dies they can be raised if such magic is available or the PC can promote the highest level Follower he has to a new cohort. That new cohort keeps his current character level and NPC classes, but gains 1 heroic class for each new “game session” he is involved in up to the cohort level maximum, the cohort once at maximum cohort level can retrain one NPC level every “game session” until he is a full Cohort with heroic levels and then progresses as written.
(So a level 1 follower who is a warrior would take 4 game sessions to reach char level 5 with 1 warrior/4 fighter levels he’d then need 1 more game session to convert a warrior level to a fighter level for fighter 5 and be maxed for a 7th level PC cohort, this may result in several newly promoted followers dying during combats before one survives long enough to gain enough levels to mix it up with the PC’s, a followers race can’t be changed, and their heroic classes should somewhat match their NPC classes, so cohort gained this way are not as good as the scratch built/unusual cohorts. NPC’s encountered by the group may become optional cohorts if the GM allows it.)
Rule 5: Only cohorts created with the scratch method come with a gold level appropriate amount of gear and magic items, cohorts gained as promoted followers have nothing and must be given better gear out of the parties pool. GM NPC’s that become cohorts have whatever gear the GM gave them prior to that point. items given to cohorts to use can only be taken back through diplo, intimidation, theft or other overt means, they won’t just hand them back without complaint unless its replaced with something of equal or better value. Cohorts that leave the group take everything they currently have or were using with them, some may steal if they are kicked out to make room for a new “better” cohort. Dead cohorts of course have no claim on their stuff ;)
Apologies for wall of text
Gobo Horde wrote:
It is called a beastmorph mutagen so while I would say no, RAW seems to allow it.
My feelings are somewhat similar hence why i brought it to the Rules board.
I guess mutagen are described as being infused with a portion of the Alchemists power, which is why he can only make one at a time. So from that perspective I guess it could make sense to carry the additional beastmorph benefits within the mutagen.
Just wondering if the additional abilities granted by a Beastmorphs mutagen are tied to the mutagen or the beastmorph alchemist ?
Specifically if a Beastmorph Mutagen is drunk by a different Alchemist would he benefit from the beast morph additions to the mutagen or only the base mutagen abilities ?
What if the different alchemist was a beastmorph as well but of a lower level ?
Ximen Bao wrote:
you can't replace iterative attacks with natural attacks normally, but due to the rather shall we say unuquie wording of tentacle discovery they from my udnerstand can be subbed in
the question is
If you have one tentacle can you attack +11/+6/+1 or only +11 and have to use e.g. a dagger for the +6/+1
with two tentacles +11/+6 and a weapon for the final +1
Either you can sub all your iterative with a single tentacles or you need a tentacle for each iterative you sub. 1 or 3 for +11/+6/+1
Ximen Bao wrote:
It would only apply to one class as in all other instances of 2 spell lists you have to choose which one is affected. The same way you can't mix the spell lists if you have two caster classes
Ximen Bao wrote:
I can't be arsed to find it, but the devs ruled that tentacle has a special deal whereby it replaces any other attack you can make. I think it's in the giant alchemist thread somewhere. I believe that means you figure what your normal routine would be, and sub the tentacle in for a single attack.
So that's a yes that you need 3 tentacles to replace 3 iterative attacks.
By that logic a Fire Oracle would not be allowed to cast Fireball because its not a divine spell.
and there's this little line in her Spell rules
You have the Feral mutagen and tentacle discovery
You have a Bite Claw Claw natural attack routine at full BAB and you also have this other tentacle attack which doesn't grant you additional attacks.
say your BAB is +11/+6/+1
If you mix Natural with iterative attacks your attack routine becomes Bite/Claw/Claw @ +6 (11-5) secondary
Could use use a single tentacle to make +11/+6/+1 iterative attacks while making +6/+6/+6 bite claw claw, or would you need 3 tentacles to use those 3 iterative attacks.
While the tentacle does not give you an extra attack can it not take the place of an existing iterative attack ? would that lead into the possibility of TWF with tentacles ?
Compared to many of the recent RPG releases PF is rules heavy. RPG's seem to be tending towards more indie like rules lite system.
I'll grant compared to older RPG's PF isn't a rules heavy game.
You know I hadn't even considered the reverse could be the case. Hrmm that's an interesting line of thought by removing certain "generic" classes it then frees up room for new more heavily theme'd classes, which might in deed go further to improving diversity instead of curbing it.
Hrmm what class apart from Fighter might that encompass, truely generic classes that are just the sum of thier parts
Indeed perhaps removing the big 4 would actually help diversity assuming you filled the gaps with other more colourful classes
Mystery Meep wrote:
Errr nope not what I was thinking, haven't even considered turning class abilities into new feats.
Mystery Meep wrote:
Its your logical endpoint
Why do you think the system can't support both themed and non themed classes alonside each other ?