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Ok, couple of mine are definitely dated now and considered "period" pieces, but they creeped me out as a child because I had a very good imagination. (still do)

War of the Worlds- HG Wells

The Tomb- F Paul Wilson

And just about any short story by Edgar Allen Poe. Well, the horror ones anyway. Before his life became so tragic and twisted, Mr. Poe had a flair for satire.


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What have I learned? Well, that gets as deep as it is shallow.

First off, not to take games too seriously, but as a person of faith or at least one that believes in intelligent design gaming has led me to ponder existence itself. What if we are players on a grand stage (or board if you prefer) and their is a reason and rhyme to all of this? What are we to learn? Lets say "God" is the gm, what is the purpose of the AP that is our lives?

There are many aspects of gaming that parallel the real world.

Probably the most vital thing I have gleaned from gaming is that I have learned alot about myself and who I am. By playing different characters throughout various campaigns, I have been able to tap 'aspects" of myself. It is sort of like a controlled schizophrenia (or more accurately, multiple personality disorder) in a safe, secure environment. I can do things in a game I would never do in RL, and then ponder the weight of said actions if they were done in the real world.

And then theres just having fun and being silly. Theres just all the fond memories of staying up way too late, drinking way too much soda, resounding goans at all the terrible (and I mean TERRIBLE) puns
and just looking around the game table at 1 or 2 am and being thankful you have people in your life who understand you. (at least a little bit)


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Hmm, this incident brings up some interesting points. As always, most of us are thinking how did it get to this point with this guy? Why didnt someone do something before it came to this?
Well, its hard to do anything until someone steps over the line and has a violent episode. How can we be pre-emptive without being unfair and denying people their rights?

I remember after 911 people complaining about the Patriot act and all the invasive measures the government was using. At the same time there were Congressional hearrrings going on about WHY 911 happened in the first place..aka "Why didnt you prevent this and catch the bad guys before it happened?" And of course, "profiling" has been an issue for years now. (Sorry, if something is true 90% of the time, it may be an unfair world view, but its a place to start if you are trying to prevent a specific type of crime, etc. No flames plz) We cant have it both ways, it would be nice if the bad guys wore badges that said "Hi, I'm a terrorist!" or something like that but they dont. Authority has to be able to snoop them out, even if we have to endure invasions of privacy an possible profiling issues.

I have personally dealt with a person who was a ticking time bomb. This person dated a friend of mine and it was a horrible ordeal, it took her forever to get away from him and feel safe again. (actually, it took him going to jail to get free of him) He had a long history of violence, had assaulted many past gfs (put one's head through a car windshield) and had publicly threatened the lives of many people including his own parents. (Quote: "I will kill you and cut you into a million pieces!"

Throughout this experience, I kept thinking "How did it get to this? Why hasnt anyone done something about this guy?" Despite his long list of assaults, he had no arrest record. He would threaten his victims and their families into silence. He choked and beat my friend repeatedly and she wouldnt press charges because he said he would kill her little boy and her parents. I took a long hard look at taking a hand in the matter and really hrting this scumbag myself, but then realized he would just take it out on her in retribution. I felt trapped, helpless. I even cajoled her into calling the cops onetime after he had called her and said he was coming to kill her. The officer did talk to her awhile about the situation, but there was little he could or woul;d do otherwise.

Anyway, a happy set of circumstances led to the creep geing jailed for a short time and my friend finally got away from him. I was happy for awhile. Then one day as I was at the local mall, my blood froze as I saw the creep pushing a baby carriage with a precious little girl in it. Mister scumbag spoke some threats under his breath as he passed me, but wouldnt look at me as he did so (like most bullies, a coward at heart) I thought about that for a long while. My friend was free of mister scumbag, but hadnt the real problem just been passed on to someone else? It wont surprise me if I open the paper one day and read about this guy finally killing someone. But what can I do? What can anyone do?

Uggg, my apologies for the depressing thoughts. Life goes on, hope you all have a great day.


Yeah, I heard about this today. And then read some of the reports. One thing that bothers me though, at least one media source was playing this up like the guy was trying to emulate the character Bane from the movie. (with the body armor and "mask")
I have to admit though, when I first heard about it, I thought, "This guy thought he was a supervilian."

Where I live (Virginia) a guy got shot to death by the police a few years back, like 20 mins from where my house is. This guy was fascinated/obsessed with the Joker character played by Heath Ledger in the second Batman movie. He was wanted for questioning in the shooting of a police officer in a nearby state and was thought to have a kidnap victim with him (turns out she was an accomplice) Anyway, he was driving recklessly and evading the police (and I should add he was dressed as the Joker as well) and believed to be armed. (which he was) The police did what they had to, but it was all very shocking.

I guess my fear is that society will label this as another example of how fantasy, especiially violent fantasy, messes with peoples minds and concept of reality. (Chris Nolan's films are especially "intense") I dont know about you guys, but where I live gamers are still viewed as borderline sociopaths ( a bit of an exaggeration, but not much) and DnD is still viewed by some as the "Devil's Work". No joke, there was a tent revival here a few years back where "demons" were cast out of former Dnd players.

But I digress. My sympathies to the victims and families. I just hope people dont go blaming various "entertainments" again and instead take some responsibility for their kids and communities.


Woot! Nice to read a thread that is not hating on summoners for a change. My only additional thought is that as far as synthesist goes, it depends on the campaign. If you guys are planning to go the distance (18th lvl or so) then a baseline summoner is better in the long run over a synthesist. If your campaigns tend to break up before that, then by all means a synthesist is the better option.

I for one just dont understand the fascination with the Master Summoner. I mean, if you really just want to exhaust all your resources at once, sure they are ultra powerful. I guess it depends on your level and the number and CR of encounters you typically face in a game day. My real reluctance with them is that all your troops can be shut out with a protection from evil/good/chaos/law spell, which my dm would do in a heartbeat.
Of course an enemy caster would have to have the appropriate one, but they
are only 25gp apiece on scroll. Seems in a world with Summoners, carrying a few scrolls of each type would be a precaution casters would take.

Anyway, good luck with your Summoner. I hope you have fun!


Good grief, this thread is still blazing? Just as well I suppose, as I had some further thoughts since my last post. Ok, sorry if this offends anyone, but whenever I hear POWERGAMER or something along the lines of "this class is broken because..." what I really infer is "this class or person makes me feel insecure or shakes up my little world. Waaah Waahh Waahh!" Ok there, I said it! Get over it!
Ok, while I don my flame retardant gear, let me share some of my gaming history with you. I started waaaaayyyy back in 1st edition and the group I was asked to join had been playing for awhile. And they had been playing ALOT! (still in school+no job+ no steady gf = lots of free time to be a nerd) Ok, I was extended the priveledge of starting my 1st character out at 3rd level and even had a magic item or two. I still remember him, a human druid named DreadLore. Once I was all written up an dm approved I set out with the party and began my career as the "new guy".
One of our first adventures was part of the G series"Against the Giants". Oh, did I mention that everyone else was level 30+? Oh silly me. Anyway, I huddled in the background and lent a spell or two to help out. Problem was, the level 36 fighter/ level 36 mage that was sort of babysitting me let loose with a chain lightning and failed to count his number of targets. The DM chuckled as he realized I was among potential targets, and well to make it short I died a horrible death. They then reincarnated me instead of rezzing and guffawed with laughter when I came back as a half elf female. Oh, and they renamed me "Dreadlina". Great fun.....
Anyway, I "retired" my druid an brought in a half ogre fighter named Grond, also 3rd level. We then continued through some of the giant series, and Grond even slew some hill giants in some of the big battles (they were only 8 hd in those days) Grond survived those modules, and I think he came out like maybe 5th level (maybe 6th)
The partys' next adventure was taking on Dragotha (of White Plume Mountain fame) and Grond went along, mainly to carry the partiys' luggage, water the horses., etc. While the big guns were engaging the DracoLich, Grond went to work on the minions- mostly skeletal and zombie monsters. I was like 1/2 a mile away from the real fighting, but still having fun. Then Dragotha used one of his alt breath weapons (Death wind I think it was called) and as the dm was figuring the AoE (which was huge) he realized poor Grond was going to get hit too, even a zip code away. Now, I had hps an a good ac, and I did great damage, but saves? At 6th? Ok, dead 1/2 ogre. They rezzed me that time at least and I dusted myself off and went on gaming.
Now I had a rough time of it, alot of the time. 400 lb ogres in plate mail flounder alot in traps and HATE just HATE having to make saving throws or dex checks. And I got my butt whooped pretty regularly too. But I hung in there, and had fun doing it. Now round lvl 9-12 I wasnt the new guy anymore, and maybe even had a little better party rank than the hirelings. I was starting to rival the mightiest fighters the party had, as far as dmg goes, due to wpn specialization and being able to use a BSWD one handed, though they had better saves, hps, gear etc.
I remember eventually going through "Throne of Bloodstone" with the party, though mostly as a big, ugly cheerlader as the PC "gods" interacted with the powers of the multiverse. Even with an amulet that raised my effective levels, I was a small fish in a BIG,BIG pond. BUT, when we went after Tiamat, as we entered her lair and the party was squaring off against her and the ancient dragons of each (chromatic) color with her, different characters were assigned different targets. And to my surprise, it fell to me to take out the ancient white dragon! Yes! I was finally one of the guys! Sure, it was the weakest thing in the encounter, but it was MINE! ALL MINE! (Incidentally, I beat the snot out out that poor dragon......)
Ok, let me step off Geezer mountain, and clarify my point if you havent gotten it yet. I was definitively the weakest, most unimportant, oft abused player in that old campaign. And I sitll loved it! Every minute of it! I wouldnt have kept coming back week after week if I hadnt. Power is relative, and has never mattered one whit to me because of that first exp (as long as everyone is using the same ruleset, mind you)
So? Be who ever you are in the game, do what makes you happy! Your not the toughest? Be the funniest! The sneakiest! The most greedy! (in fun, mind you) Maybe be the biggest coward who ever lived! Find the "magick" of your groups' chemistry and roll with it


OMG! Freakin hilarious, Puck!


Powergaming? Tsk tsk, this issue will never die. As with all aspects of life, some people will perform better than others, or have the desire to do so. As long as all people are using the same rules set, its just pointless to try an hamper players with restricted feats, etc. Give two people the same character with the same stats and one of them is likely to utilize it better than the other. Give it up!
Now, that having been said, may I share what my DM of some 20+ years does to maintain "game balance." He simply does the following: if a player comes up with some "unbeatable" combo it only makes sense that word of the tactic,power, etc spreads and everyone starts employing it. Even the villians. Especially the villians!
I came up with a 1300+ damage attack that didnt allow a save or SR in 3.5 and NEVER, EVER used it because of my DMs logical policy.(Matter of fact I didnt even tell him about it for like 5 years)
I myself find that the 'core" hardcover PF books greatly restrict powergaming (over 3.5 at least) In addition, it is far easier to build a nearly invincible monster than an overpowered pc. Our DM can easily humble any overconfident players, though he usually does it far more subtley by putting th pc in a situation where their ultimate power, etc is almost useless.
Anyway, the surest way to approach obtaining any sort of game balance iin a campaign is by gettinhg more experince as a dm. There is no quick way to gain that experience, and no substitute for it. Just practice, practice, practice. Just dont lose your love of the game while you are getting there.


My Eidolon is Ripper Jack. At level 3 he appeared as a black haired werewolf with glowing red eyes. His rune is a red glowing hourglass (his mistress personal symbol, her name is Widow) At 7th Ripper Jack has two wolfen heads and his jaws/claws drip acid continually. Ripper's build is as follows (Widow is a half elf summoner using the apg fav class option and has 2 slots in the extra evolution feat)

Evolution points: 13
Improved natural armor, magic attacks, improved damage (claws), bite x 2, climb, reach (claws), extra head, rend, energy attacks (acid)

Since "growing" his second head, Ripper Jack's personality has split in two as well. The right head is Ripper, and represents his viscious animalistic side. The left head is Jack and he lives to please his mistress. (Who's a good doggie? You are! Yes you are! Tail thumping and whining follows) Ripper never speaks to anyone other than Widow, but Jack is inquisitive and exciteable. (Much to Ripper's annoyance)

Anyway, Ripper Jack is a basic mellee monster but combined with a climb speed and the skills of perception, stealth, and disable device he's also a decent scout and (very) basic thief.

Also of note, Widow uses the share spells optionto buff RJ as much as possible (Mage armor, bull's str, displacement, etc)


Sigh. So sad to see this topic raging on. I guess it will never end. As I have posted before, balance will never be achieved. You could have an entire group playing the same class, and some players would still outshine the others. Are we supposed to dumb down the rules and hobble creative players just so everyone feels more secure and "equal"?
Allow me to paraphrase a story from a book on Tao that I have. A matial arts sensei noticed that one of his students was continually frustrated during sparring sessions with other class members. The students skill level was lower than the other students, and he often resorted to tricks, shortcuts, etc to try to gain an advantage during sparing sessions, to no avail.
The Master took the student aside one day and lead him outside. The sensei drew two lines on the ground of different lenghts and then asked the student how they could be made the same length. The student offered a couple suggestions, all involvied diminishing the longer line in some fashion. The teacher listened patiently, and then stooped and extended the shorter line until it was the same lenght as the other."Lengthen your own line", he told his student.
As I recall, the student in the story didn't go on to be the best in the class or anything. But his frustration disappeared as he concentrated on just improving his own ability and not trying to tear down the ability of others.
My point here is, just play what you love/enjoy and forget about the rest.Real life is far more imbalanced in comparison to the games we love. Let's not nit pick the crap out of things which are only illusions to begin with. And above all, have some fun in your games DANGIT! (edited after further consideration)


Ok, I myself being a fan of martial artists and fancy swordwork can definitely relate to the concept of a dex based fighter. But, and I know this is a fantasy game and we suspend our disbelief, I have a hard time picturing anyone facing a dragon with a pair of daggers. (Even though I can easily build a character that can do some serious damage with them)
Now in the real world I can envision how a deft dagger thrust can quickly dispatch a human being, but how about a charging rhinocerous? That's when I would want a greatsword and huge arms to swing it. (Though actually a LONG spear would be even better)
Anyway, I think we all are given to a "David vs Goliiath" mentality at times. But remember, David was the exception an not the rule. Brute strength tends to win out when you are using archaic weaponry. So str based fighters should stay at the top of the food chain.


Hmmmm. Well, for my part I would say that around 9th lvl (when raise dead is first available) 5k worth of gold is a considerable sum of money. Too much so just to "zerg" a pc back for recon work.
Of course, 5k becomes more of a trifling amount at higher levels. But by then higher level spells are available for bringing a pc back, and they have less "sting" to them.
I think part of the current design philosophy is to keep the game rolling and keep all players involved. I grew up "old school" gaming and know firsthand what it's like to sit through SEVERAL gaming sessions waiting for the party to get to a place they could revive my character. It's a real drag even for the most commited player.
As far as items and whatnot, PF seems to be dedicated to making some of the reward levels of the game a little more accessible. For example, in Ultimate Magic I was at first shocked to read of an 8th lvl pc being able to clone himself (alchemist:Clone Master) but upon further reflection I realized that out of the dozens of campaigns my group has played, we only ever had pcs high enough level to cast clone TWICE. So why not have a little more of the "good stuff" available a little sooner when there's still plenty of "life" left in a campaign?
After playing over two decades under a "killer" DM I appreciate a little more relaxed environment. (Or would, seeing as how I havent been able to convert our group to PF yet) Anyway, that's my two cents worth.


Ahh, the eternal question of balance. This is truly pointless, you know. You can balance classes all you want, but the players themselves vary greatly in ability, experience, and what they want out of a game. An experienced player who wants to power game will "outshine" other members of his goup who are more laid back or less experienced no matter what class he is playing.
The bottom line is always the same, play whatever you most enjoy and dont worry about how "powerful" other pcs are. They are on your side after all, aren't they?


I finally got my hands on a copy of Ultimate Magic today. And while its not perfect (typos, some vague descriptions, etc) I must say that I LOVED IT! Good job to you Paizo folks for keeping alive and even IMPROVING my favorite pnp rpg rules!
Magic has always been my greatest joy in rpgs, and sadly computer games and MMO's just dont allow for the versatility and true art of spellcasting. It's depressing to see so many gamer's perception of magic being limited to dots, dps, pets, etc. Even DnD became part of the "pushbutton" mindset with 4th edition.
True magic is a blend of ingenuity, art, and creative thinking often mixed with a dash of dumb luck. I guess I have been blessed with being able to game under alot of good DMs who can manage to run a fantasy world with fairness, vision, and imagination while still holding it together solidly with a framework of rules.
Anyway, thanks again Paizo for a great book that has already filled the corridors of my mind anew with a host of character possibilities!


This seems almost too good to be true, so I wanted to make sure it works the way I think it does. Let's suppose I have a level 6 Two Handed Fighter (APG) with an 18 strength and the following feats: weapon focus (greatsword), weapon specialization (greatsword), power attack, furious focus, and vital strike. Now, using Overhand Chop and weapon training bonuses, am I correct in thinking this fighter could make a single attack at +12 to hit and do 4d6+17 damage with his greatsword?(all bonuses included) Furthermore, it appears to me this fighter could still take a move action and perform this attack.
I know this isn't exactly awesome damage or anything, but it's still pretty decent and I wanted to make sure it works this way. Feed back appreciated. =)


Personally, I think the idea of a balanced party where everyone contributes equally is MOSTLY just a myth. My gaming group has been together for over 20 years now, and I can only think of one campaign where everyone was fairly well balanced in comparison to each other.
The truth is the players themselves create most of the disparity, not the game system. We have all different styles of gamers in our group, from the casual gamer to the roleplayer to the metagamer (Though metagaming has basically died out as we all have matured a little at least) I think the bottom line should always be to have fun. Of course fun can be a little elusive....the right combination of characters and style is still something we haven't perfected in over 20 years of gaming.....most of the time when it happens, it JUST happens..like magic. =)


I believe I am correct in saying that what is meant by the text in the APG regarding iscoveries with an asterisk is that you cant stack them with other discoveries marked with an asterisk. That is to say, for example, you cant create an acid/force bomb.The text on page 28 of the APG reads" Discoveries that modify bombs that are marked with an asterisk do not stack. Only one such discovery can be applied to an individual bomb" And furthermore it states "Unless otherwise noted, an alchemist cannot select an individual discovery more than once"


I would suggest a summoner/rogue. By taking just one level in rogue, you will have the +3 class skill bonus in all rogue skills and 1d6 sneak attack damage. Take Precise strike for both you and your eidolon, and now you are doing +2d6 damage when flanking with your pet. Additional feats could be spent on skill focus to up your thieving skills. Make the character a half-elf, and you can balance out the loss of evolution points by taking the their summoner favored class option.
All in all, you end up with a still decent summoner with some extra options at their disposal.


I think Pathfinder is a wonderful system. Most of my friends refer to it as DnD 3.75 or "what 3.5 should have been".
That being said, no game system is perfect and can't possibly cover all questions/problems, etc. While it would be nice to have a "perfect" little gaming world where everything was covered and spelled out, where every class was "balanced" to EVERYONE'S satisfaction, it is my sad duty to inform everyone that IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN!
Thus, it is entirely appropriate that gaming groups have house rules to maintain some sense of order.
I think the root of most peoples concept of "broken" stems from the desire/need for everyone to somehow be equal. Real life teaches us otherwise, as it plainly becomes evident after a modicum of life experience that there will always be someone faster,stronger,smarter, better looking, richer, etc than we are. The best thing we can do in life or gaming is to fiind our own niche and strive to do our personal best.(And try to enjoy ourselves in the process)
Sorry, I was feeling a tad philosophical there. Kudos to Paizo for making a great game!


The wonderful thing about any winning tactic/spell combination/etc is that if it such a great idea, it only makes sense that other people (read npcs, monsters,etc) would come up with similiar approaches. Simply put, a good idea catches like wildfire.
Our main DM has used that logic for years and it keeps virtually everything from being "broken". If we come up with a great tactic/whatever, it usually isnt too long before our enemies are using similiar things against us. Lots of people groan and yell "FOUL!" sometimes, but its really hard to argue against other beings using the same types of ideas we do. (After all, we copy the dms tactics too from time to time) Its a wonderful way to keep game balance, though I can see if you are using preprinted adventures imost of the time,tit might be a little harder to justify.


Hmmm. An excellent response, my thanks. I do believe this is how I will handle items in an Eidolon's possesion.
On a related note, affter I did my first post, it occured to me you still could use an Eidolon for suicide runs to retrieve/steal items by using Makers Call (as LOS is not listed as a limitation.) This brings to mind some interesting applications if you styled your Eidolon more for stealth/recon


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Greetings and salutations! My gaming group and I are getting ready to start playing pathfinder so we are currently looking over the rules. Most rules questions Ithat I have had have been answered in various other threads, but one question I have WAS asked but seemed to be overlooked: If eidolons and summoners share item slots, what happens to any items an eidolon is wearing if it is forced to return to it's own plane? Furthermore, what about anything it might be carrying? (Like extra loot etc)
This may seem a small matter, and I could easily come up with a house rule for it, but I was curious to see if there was an "official" policy. The reason being is that it occurs to me that one could create an eidolon that served as an excellent thief (using unfetter and bond senses, of course) and if all items went with it when it "poofed" then it could be use it to make kamikazee thieving raids. On the other hand, if all items remain behind then a summoner would have to make sure they retrieved important dropped items.(shared items)
I imagine it would be fair to say worn items went with the eidolon but carried would not. This still leaves a little room for abuse, but not as much. Maybe there should be an attunement time for its items, say 24 hours? Any thoughts?