Pax Veritas's page

I experienced the same things, as though I had blinders on, I used to think that there was such a thing as offical content - but in the past 2 years, I've paid attention to the authors of the materials and actually realized that WOTC does not own dungeons and dragons any more than the NFL owns football. I started reading OGL materials, and realized the high quality of superior PAIZO materials and the brilliance of some NECROMANCER GAMES materials.

At that same time, the so-called designers of 4th editions were making fan-limiting choices about the fluff and crunch of the game - choices that were nonsensical or arbitrary, that's when I realized the "true" stewards of dungeons and dragons (as a beloved frpg steeped in tradition, history, and community) were the PAIZONIANS under the leadership of Erik Mona.

On these message boards I've asked people to reset their thinking, to look past the marketing of WOTC, and see that there is no such thing as "official content" anymore, because 4th edition breaks the continuity and 30+ years of game traditions. This is evident in their design choices, and reconcepting of our game.

...this is the first I've heard of the 'mutually exclusive' bit, and the idea of being forced to choose sounds very much like a 5th grader wrote the GSL. But then again, that's what I think of Wizards and their horrible treatment of the gaming community and third party publishers.

I'm solidly behind Erik Mona, and appreciate his leadership as the true steward of our game. If the new GSL prohibits 3rd party publishers from supporting the new Pathfinder RPG, or writing for 3.5, then the role-playing community should ralley against this action, and see those ring-twisting WOTC greed-mongers for who they really are! (It would be a powerful message, and an important move, to see Necromancer Games switch to join in partnership with PAIZO! What a wonderful world that would be!)

For me, this GSL is a huge deal-breaker, perhaps the "boom" Erik was suggesting in his post, 4E PAIZO IS STILL UNDECIDED. I no longer support wizards, they have lost my business forever.

But this is not enough! Anyone interested in a class-action lawsuit against WOTC? IMHO, this is a monopolistic move that should be stopped in court!

...this is the first I've heard of the 'mutually exclusive' bit, and the idea of being forced to choose sounds very much like a 5th grader wrote the GSL. But then again, that's what I think of Wizards and their horrible treatment of the gaming community and third party publishers.

I'm solidly behind Erik Mona, and appreciate his leadership as the true steward of our game. If the new GSL prohibits 3rd party publishers from supporting the new Pathfinder RPG, or writing for 3.5, then the role-playing community should ralley against this action, and see those ring-twisting WOTC greed-mongers for who they really are!

For me, this is a huge deal-breaker, perhaps the "boom" Erik was suggesting in his post, 4E PAIZO IS STILL UNDECIDED. I no longer support wizards, they have lost my business forever.

But this is not enough! Anyone interested in a class-action lawsuit against WOTC? If what the OP says is true, this is a monopolistic move that should be stopped in court!

My knee-jerk reaction is to suggest a massive good cop/bad cop conspiracy between obvious parties. But instead, I admit I haven't the strength anymore to fight the good fight on this issue anymore.

I am absolutely disappointed that PAIZO seems to be "selling-out." There stood such a chance to do the right thing for the integrity of our game. Being advised to "buy and read" the new stuff by someone under legal contract who can only say the DMG is the best thing since sliced bread tells me there must be a lot of money to be made on 4E—because I thought the designers at PAIZO already knew how to run awesome games.

Also, the idea of shilling-out and plugging stuff to this community also seems a bit forward, if not too much just like what I hear from wizards.

So I am sickened that what was once a fun game now seems more about marketing, NDAs, and possible misrepresentations about who has seen these stupid rules.

This comes just a day after I took a look at the '07 rules for Star Wars minis, and realized I was probably already holding most of the 4E rules in my hand. Knowing Slavicsec's history with that game, I expect 4E will be Star Wars with swords.

I am taking my d20 and going home.

@atreides - oftentimes operating systems are backward compatible, this 4th hodgepodge is not. Oftentimes, software companies build upgrades with the ideal that it adds features to an existing application to benefit the end user, 4th seems to be its own thing - far removed from the dungeons and dragons features that many have enjoyed for 30+ years. In fairness, at least the upgrades to MS Word have left me feeling like I was using an enhanced version MS Word, i.e. new features added but upgrades honor the look & feel and what the user already knows. Disimilarly, 4dventure seems to be like asking owners of Microsoft Office to also concurrently buy a different, unnecessary, jumbled operating system that is greatly unknown except for the fact it is sold under the same software name in hopes of instantly popularizing what novice designer/developers "think" is cool.

I can't simply BUY into the notion of "put on your big boy pants" as mentioned in another post, because I clearly see the disparity in quality between 3.5 and 4.0. 3.5 was a revision based greatly on fixing things for the end-user. 4.0 and seeming plans to release 5.0, 6.0, 7.0 in faster, more rapid iterations is just unacceptable when there has been such a break of faith in the community of users who appreciate the care with which designers have handled the traditions and trusted culture of three decades. Anyone who calously says, "hey, that's just the way of the world," may not realize the power of consumers to ralley against what seems to be corporate greed and abuse of the mantle of leadership for our precious game. I recognize we live in a world where its true we no longer buy MS Word—we subscribe to MS Word! However, why must our game's heritage be wontonly "re-concepted?" In an epic ending, WOTC has destroyed the realms, abandoned support for 3.5, abandoned it's hisorical fan base, abandoned greyhawk, and thrust their mighty sword +5 of corporate greed into thier own gut.

Epitaph: Here Lies The So-Called 4th Edition-behold the greed that changed our game from a story of heroes fighting for good to an incoherent munchkin realm where morality involves killing stuff, taking stuff, and buying more stuff... and buying more stuff... and buying more stuff... and buying more stuff... and buying more stuff...

Presenting: ...4E, the illegitimate edition! Also known as 4I- a hodgepodge of unnecessary goofy stuff. The edition that required the destruction of the meticulously crafted world of Faerun, and a jumbled cacophony of mash-ups to get kids to play the game.

But wait! That's not all! The so-called designers of 4.crap will also throw in un-schooled interpretations of what fans of the game have enjoyed for 30+ years.

If you order now, you'll also recieve piss-poor marketing aimed at alienating long-time players of the game along with your subscription to formerly free online stuff that you already have in a more coherent form in your 3.5 book collection.

So don't dely—just call 1-800-NOT-D&D

Beloved Greyhawk... Nay, not the end of Greyhawk, only the end of the concept of "official content." Since WOTC seems to be wontonly throwing away our traditions (such as Greyhawk), perhaps they no longer deserve to be the proprietors of something called "official content" especially after their incoherent display in Worlds and Monsters, and after their destruction of the realms and our game's heritage and the many ways their consumer base has been violated. Consider the following...

I hold in my hands the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and see Erik Mona's name in the design credits along with a special thanks to Lisa Stevens. (Yes. Two of our favorite people, credible designers, great stewards of our game.) Oh, and what a small world (no pun intended)——look, there's Richard Baker's name as the creative director and I'll bet there are others who still work at WOTC. It would seem about eight years ago there were a bunch of great guys and gals who honored the games 30+ years of history when writing third edition and the various supplements etc.

So what happened? Only those who were there truly know, but my guess is the B-string got left behind and the very talented went on to other prosperous careers - like Erik who is a top shelf publisher, Monte Cook of the Malhavoc Press fame, and Lisa who is PAIZO's CEO.

I've seen the 13 slams written about 3.5 from Mike Mearls, and I'm familiar enough with the putdowns about 3.5 from names like Baker, Collins, Noonan, Perkins, etc. who work for WOTC. As Eric Mona explained in his post last fall (4.0 PAIZO IS STILL UNDECIDED), perhaps WOTC now fears competetion from their own game...3.5!

So, I believe the millions of gamers who love dungeons and dragons may already realize that we're getting the same (or better) quality dungeons and dragons material from PAIZO than the poor design hinted at in Races & Worlds marketing materials. We don't need a copyrighted game name to know good quality materials.

Because Erik Mona was Greyhawk's champion, we feel its sad that Greyhawk is not "allowed" to "officially" continue. I agree that its a shame that WOTC can just pull the plug on a setting that deserves to continue (and is desired by many consumers) and has remained through the years close to the traditions of dungeons and dragons.

But this can happen tonight: When we wake up tomorrow, we can all say, "We like PAIZO, and to hell with the concept of "official content."

Does that bring Greyhawk back? ...not yet.

What does that buy us? ...our freedom from the ringlords over at wizards who shamelessly seem to covet a monopoly over this genre, over the entire dungeons and dragons franchise! If we no longer buy-in to the idea of "official content" then PAIZO, and TROLL LORD GAMES, and NECROMANCER GAMES, etc. are suddenly on EQUAL footing with Wizards (who seem to be driving our game into the dirt!) Again, just glance at Worlds and Monsters and you'll see how they have "reconcepted" everything until it is a distinctive departure from the game we have enjoyed throughout the previous editions.

Again, saying "to hell with the idea of official content," makes PAIZO the true stewards of our game. Just look at Pathfinder 1-4 or Gamemastery modules TC1, D0, D1, E1, J1, W1, D2, U1 or J2 and we see the same quality (if not better) than WOTC has ever done.

I say to those who enjoyed Greyhawk—keep playing it! Be free of the shackles of WOTC. I say to those who appreciate the Gamemastery line- This IS dungeons and dragons. WOTC may own a copyrighted game name, but they don't own dungeons and dragons any more than the NFL owns football. And for them to cut off Greyhawk and abandon it, just like they've destroyed the realms—————IS MEANINGLESS as long as you no longer give WOTC any attention. If you believe they're through as our game leaders, then we can be liberated to buy OGL materials that are 3.5 and adapt them into any traditional dungeons and dragons setting we choose: our own homebrew, Mystara, Duchy of Karameikos, and indeed Greyhawk! In this way Greyhawk lives on.

For those who may not have noticed it yet, I perceive 4E (and the subsequent versions that will follow) to be a massive "legal" conspiracy to rein-in 3rd party publishers. And, boy does this suspicion grow every day...

Long Live Greyhawk! Long Live 15th Century Realms!
Three-Point-Five Never Dies!
Three Cheers for Eric Mona and Lisa Stevens—the proposed new stewards of our game!

-LONG LIVE 3P-

@Bluenose - no argument with you nor homebrew. The fight is against a company who has claimed to release "official content" when the version is a departure from the games heritage. Kudos for your tenure, again no argument with any fellow gamers at all. I feel Slavicsec is turning the ruleset into Starwars and the traditional elements that many long time gamers identify with the game (races, classes, planes, etc., signature mechanic concepts, and more). Many want to feel they are still playing dungeons and dragons, a genre set apart and steeped in community and tradition (god pantheons, look and feel of races, longevity of elves, etc.). The team who designed third edition honored these and many more aspects of our game. The so-called designers of fourth seem to be grossly enjoying hacking these up to make something new (like a light beer except without coherency) a buck (great wheel, etc.). Bluenose, I hope this helps explain that I would never suggest to proscribe your homebrew, and I value above all the use of imagination (also a tradition of the game). The issues with 4E are profound and many.

@Razz - Yes. WOTC had shattered the concept of "official content" forever. By their own words they claim to have reconcepted 30+years of tradition. What for? Is there a shortage on imagination these days? The idea of more new customers than lost customers can sometimes work in the short run, but at the long run sacrifice of things like integrity.

dungeons and dragons does not require a logo to be played, the game was quietly played underground for many years and if needs be, there it will remain unless we as a consumer group shift our attention to another company. I personally enjoy the popularity of the game that makes accessories and products a viable investment for companies. Perhaps we do not need to wait until the so-called designers run this game into the ground... I like to think PAIZO could make for such an honorable company..."where dungeons and dragons really continued." Having Eric and Lisa at the helm there's bound to be enough integrity and respect for the traditions of the game for years to come.

Three Point Five Never Dies —— Long Live 3P

@CEBrown - Yes. I believe the munchkins have finally taken over and achieved what they set out to do—they've broken the game!

I peeked at Worlds and Monsters on the shelf today and it seems the new "folgers crystals" that will be replacing our game includes poorly reconcepted, disperate items packaged into one non-cohesive (not even internally consistent) set of changes. ...Perhaps by writing the so-called "cool" stuff into the ruleset, it can help the 4E designers feel-like they're actually using their imagination when they play. Maybe there could be a small sticker somewhere on 4E that says, "true D&D not included".

@El_Scoot - say what you like. I find your original statement and analogy to be inflamatory.

I took at peek at Worlds and Monsters today on the shelf. Hey-el_scooter, before you defend 4e as a viable version of the game I suggest you take a look at the half-assed, poorly reconcepted so-called new D&D world.

4E is an illegitimate edition. It is not consistant with 30+ years of tradition and community and does not honor what good designers have honored before, the essence of D&D. It is plain to see they're selling crap under the brand name and admit freely that they have reconcepted the whole thing. The designs read like a high-school project. I would not blame anyone for finding offense with el_scootro's inflamatory remarks, and expect that the wanton destruction of our shared traditions will not be received well by those like Erik Mona and some others at PAIZO who have always honored the history of our game.

@ Nicolas Logue - Thank you. P.s. I thought the ad was powerful. Please cast Permanency on that idea.

Three Point Five Never Dies!

@Sean Mahoney - I understand what you mean. I don't disagree that higher level play has more complexity that adds to game viscosity along with many of the factors listed in this thread. I agree it might be surprising to say otherwise. The off-setting factor is DM facilitation of those and other events-the key to fun flowing game sessions. I didn't mean to discount the spirit of this thread. Thanks for your comment.

@Crosswired - The DM controls through faciliation. A word that means 'to make easier.'

The video sucked. Does anyone at that sick company even play dungeons and dragons? WTF?

Iconics, schmyconics! That company is through. There is no such thing as official content anymore! WOTC is no longer the sovereign leaders of our game anymore!. It is not us who are old-school...it is they who are grade-school!!!

What is this crap they call a teaser video? What is this shi! they pass for marketing. We need a company with integrity to preserve the "soul" of dungeons and dragons.

LONG LIVE 3P

No.

(Erik, can you hear us? The time has come for a revolution.)

The DM controls the pace of the game — always.

3.5 is a sophisticated rule set consistent with the tradition of Dungeons and Dragons. 4E is a clear departure from that tradition. The time is right for a revolution in the way we think of our game. Is this hobby of ours simply owned by the biggest corporation with the least imagination? Or, as consumers do we SHOUT back about the sick treatment and greed that has manifested in this new game they seek to sell under the name D&D? The voices of gamers could move mountains. The question I'm asking is who has the integrity to stand up to the ringlords right now in this historic moment?

*crickets*

Yes, I tend to agree that the handwriting is on the wall. Still, hope springs eternal. There are a few ways I'm sure we can think of to outsmart Wizards at their own game (pun intended).

WOTC is nothing to me anymore. I neither care who they're targeting nor what becomes of them. They have wronged the game, a game they demonstrate not to understand.

Additionally, as I see the third party publishers bellying up to the sales bar I am reminded that in this historic moment, we have yet to hear anybody truly stand up to those ringlords and their so-called market research. I took one look at the recent realms article via the view printable version link and saw how they pissed away 20 years of tradition. Is imagination so scarce at WOTC that they had to f-up the realms too?

I was, however, pleased to see the mystery ad that ran in Wolfgang's Kobold Quarterly this month that portreyed the man shackled by 4E with the <i>3.5 will never die</i> tatoo on his arm. Regardless of the mystery company's intentions behind the ad, at least WOTC's crappy treatment of its customers and game history is not going un-noticed.

@Marnak - In your December post you said, "I will buy 4E materials when they are published." I feel the publishers of this so-called next edition are counting on your players to feel generally unbiased. Unlike other edition releases, this is an hisoric moment when we need players of the game to become very informed. I believe that company is counting on the masses not saying anything, not speaking up.

Gamers Don't Let Gamers Fall Into 4E Apathy!
I believe the PAIZO fans that post on these threads are very informed, and many feel they need to be because some heavy handed propaganda is occurring (a la change-justifications found in Races and Classes) in hopes of persuading the players of dungeons and dragons to believe that their new product is "the same game." It will be sold as Dungeons & Dragons but it is not the dungeons and dragons many have played for 30+ years.

To be sure, the six players who've participated in my recent weekly 1.5 year campaign are informed, and they echo the sentiments that Wizards of the Coast have lost touch with their customers. These six players were disgusted with the youtube video from Gen Con—all six players felt Slavisec looked like a nervous liar. Still grieving the loss of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, we then all began experiencing a series of dislikable "leaks" from the WOTC ivory tower about just how much the new game will be a departure from the game we enjoy. To the point of this thread, armed with information it was just impossible to remain apathetic in any way.

For those who think this is about love/hate—please please think again. This is not about irrational *hate*. WOTC owns a trademark game name, but they don't own dungeons and dragons any more than the NFL owns the sport of football. I urge you, Marnak, to inform your players about this hijack of our traditions. The Great Wheel exists, eladrins are not elves, dragonborn are not core, tieflings are far more discrete in appearance, gnomes exist, elves live for a thousand years, 1000 years have not passed in the Forgotten Realms, etc. As fans of the game we should have an opinion, because any "4E Apathy" is a sin of omission.

It is a shame that players have been put into this situation by that company, but we must stay informed, continue these thread discussions, and share our views (yes, Crosswired, I respect your right to have a different opinion).

Those who stay informed have a duty to inform our gaming groups about what is happening in our industry! In every case, fans of dungeons and dragons and its traditions cannot and should not allow "4E Apathy" to set in. I believe that may be just what WOTC is banking on.

I am excited that the mystique of WOTC as the sole supplier of "official content" will be finally over, making room for PAIZO, Necromancer Games, etc. to be seen as more legitimate successors to the traditions that defined this game for 30+ years.

I'm game for slipcovers. Would this be like a rack that holds maybe three to four adventure path sets? Sign me up.

Could you use a small character sheet? If so, you might consider the free 2-sided retro 3.5 sheet available from necromancer games. If you try software, HeroLab is quick to use for basic NPC stats. James Buck might still have his a 3.5 stat block generator online (just google). I seem to recall theothergamecompany offers some free stuff that might help you.

Mostly, since this type of stuff depends on your needs as a DM and your preferences, a lot of custom 1-sided sheets are made by DMs in MS Word, etc.... hope that helps.

Good question: About the elves...
*boom*
Since you've asked for ideas about the intentions of changing elven life-spans, here is some friendly speculation (not looking for argument) and based on some rumors I've heard... the longevity of the elf may be tied to that company's desire to set this other game hundreds of years (perhaps 1000 years) into the future, thus enacting a complete and total reset of the game. In this scenario, even the characters of associated novels will be a distant memory. Perhaps their intention is to make it further "new" and different from 3.5. Wi$ards of the Coa$t may be looking for a clean break that allows for "new" stuff to be sold. I've heard people suggest that company fears their greatest competitor could be their own product (3.5) continued in the hands of 3rd party OGL publishers. [Wow, I'd love to see that happen.] I'm guessing the "Winterhaven" of their first module release will be set as a "point of light" upon the ruins of some town we may already be familiar with in 3.5. Their recent writing on the revised 4.0 FRCS reads: "The world has changed since the Spellplague, and from this arcane crucible have emerged shining kingdoms, tyrannical empires, mighty heroes, and monster-infested dungeons." Again, in the spirit of this thread-my thoughts on "why": I don't think this was any skillful design consideration, just avorice, novice, or wanton abandonment of 30+ years of tradition that defines our game, not this other game they're hoping to sell under the title of their trademarked name.

Happy New Year, everyone!
May 2008 be your best year ever!

@Crosswiredmind - as always, I can appreciate the fact that you play the Donald Trump capitalist card in defense of 4E. It seems you're saying 'it's not personal, its business'. You defend XPUD's plans to release a new game under the pretense that it is the Dungeons and Dragons we have known for 30+ years. As an American I can't fault you for, on principle, defending capitalism. However, as just one of the millions who value the integrity of our game, our culture, tradition and intellectual history, we hear you on these threds making a clear point that you don't give a damn. Yes, they have found a new way to make money... one electronic piece at a time. And, that's not what many fans of the game expect to be of premier concern from a steward of our game.

The title of this thread is an appropriate statement: DDI - The Greed Continues... A game store owner I know explained to me that he believes Hasbro may actually be very unhappy that XPUD is part of their capitalist entity. They may be tired of the unpredictable distribution scenario i.e. selling thousands of dollars of product to a few people (DMs), and a single PHB to the majority (players). He explained to me that Hasbro wants products that sell. As Erik Mona pointed out in his post on October 23rd entitled 4.0 PAIZO IS STILL UNDECIDED, "It behooves Wizards of the Coast to "monetize" as many aspects of D&D as possible, to keep the game as fresh and free of limiting "baggage" (such as continuity), and to keep up with the design approaches taken by massively multiplayer online roleplaying games that appeal to the next generation of gamers."

Many will agree that not buying 4I (the illegitimate edition) is our right as consumers. Additionally, for those of us who believe that our history should not be treated like "baggage" by a monopolistic and greedy company: can we rally to send a clear message to PAIZO that there are "enough players willing to make a break from Wizards of the Coast and the Dungeons & Dragons brand to sustain a healthy 3.5-based Pathfinder business?"

@Balabanto - yes, yes, yes! Great points.

@DM McCoy – I agree with you. Our heritage and tradition is at risk, many millions of us would like to see this torch passed. I have always admired Erik Mona for his sensitivity to this. On October 23rd, in his post 4.0 PAIZO IS STILL UNDECIDED, Erik wrote, “Are there enough players willing to make a break from Wizards of the Coast and the Dungeons & Dragons brand to sustain a healthy 3.5-based Pathfinder business?” This has raised my awareness of the ugliness about to occur so I’ve flipped through XPUD's newly released garbage yesterday at my favorite game store. I was disgusted. (I can't even bring myself to spell out that company's name any more...) I agree that this new “edition” is an illegitimate heir to the legacy of our game. I agree we need new stewards of our game, and it is up to the millions of us to make this decision, and break this monopolistic stranglehold upon our culture and traditions.

4E IS NOT DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS It is a new game and it breaks the public's faith in that company's stewardship of the game's intellectual history and traditions. THE MUNCHKINS HAVE TAKEN OVER. Thanks to the trusted stewardship of Monte Cook, Erik Mona, the folks at PAIZO, and others, one can play 3.5 and still be playing Arneson & Gygax's game! However, one look at the new 4E material propaganda, and you can see just how badly the fundamentals have been corrupted. I vote no confidence in 4E.

It sounds like we agree that there should be a split, a meaningful departure from the wizards who even now are twisting their ringfingers and grinning because soon they will have monopolized the whole genre, catered to the very youngest of consumers, and leaving the rest behind, abandoned, without support, without the OGL, crushing any possible chance to have such a voice in the future.

There must be a break from this monopolizing company that would abandon 30+ years of proud tradition so wantonly.

Peace and truth. Pax et veritas. I find both to be rare, fragile, precious, and of extreme value.

@Matthew Morris - sincere thanks, I also appreciated your last post on the topic of teaching and growing the game and traditions. I am and will continue to do so.

@KaeYoss - said, "The name "D&D" means cash, and they want to get that cash."

What if WE as fans no longer allowed that assumption to remain true?

What could we all do? I too am interested to see how third party publishers will do—however, what if we as a community no longer thought of PAIZO as third party? What if we looked to PAIZO as the new legitimate leaders of our game?

What if we as a community begin to think of PAIZO as the main souce publisher of our FRPG?

What would our new situation look like if we all believed in the following: PAIZO, WHERE D&D TRULY CONTINUED. Erik Mona is highly competent (and extremely trustworthy) to be our new leader. Can you imagine the positive outcomes and how this could help dislodge XPUD's stranglehold upon our community?

@Tatterdemalion - yes, great points.

@Dragonchess Player - well said.
@Dungeon Grrl - eloquent and sensitive, agree completely.
@CEBrown - great points.

@Crosswiredmind - my holiday wish for you is that you truly feel heard. It is apparent that your perspective is that "this is just a game," xpud is just a company, and we should get over ourselves. You're not persuaded that mis-steps have occurred on the part of what many feel to be the current stewards of the game. In several active threads right now you are promoting the idea that change happens and we, the consumers, should not get upset about it. You do not seem bothered by the passionate and detailed explanations provided by Dragonchess, Dungeon Grrl, CEBrown, nor myself.

If the above is true. We understand your perspective and that's not the point of our concern.

We care about the direction and evolution of our hobby. Unlike you we are attempting to uncover and address serious affonts to our intelligence, and our displeasure with our treatment as consumers and game enthusiasts. We also care about the competency of the industry leaders who impact the identity of our game. This messageboard is the place for that serious dialogue to occur, even though you disagree. Until now, your comments along with your lack of concern are consistant with the company you are trying to defend - we fault the former stewards of our game for their break from coherency, tradition, and the heritage of this game. We also question motives and deem that greed, ivory-tower design, and abandonment of the former fan-base are contributors. We unmask the new edition as one that is illegitimate, but packaged with propoganda as though it is another edition of the game we know and have watched evolve for decades. Please recognize that just because you either do not understand or embrace these elements does not mean they do not exit. Dungeon Grrl, CEBrown, and Dragonchess are perhaps like millions who do care deeply about these things. Please dial back your Donald Trump attitude of "its not personal, its business" long enough to also hear our perspective. To honor your point of view, at a basic level we understand that companies with copyrights can do what they want. We get that! We simply believe that there are consequences to corporate behavior, and things like outrage, boycott, and switching products are the right of any consumer group as means to rail against our perceived mistreatment. Does that make sense?

Now, what is significant about our posts on the PAIZO messageboard is that unlike XPUD, PAIZO listens eagerly to its fans. This is in fact a sharp contrast to several of the issues we have with the current stewards of our game (see issues explained in Dungeon Grrl's recent post). So in some ways, we can affect what happens next to the game we care about and in ways that are larger than just ourselves. @Crosswired... can you at least appreciate that?

The name for this product is up to the ringlords. In any case, I agree, 4E is not Dungeons & Dragons, it is a departure from 30+ years of intellectual and social history and they no longer deserve to be stewards of our game. One suggested name might be ILLEGITIMATE edition (IE).

@DM Jeff - Agreed. I vote no confidence in XPUD. (I can't bear to even write out that company's name anymore.) They have abused the stewardship of our game. 4E is a departure from tradition and intellectual heritage.
@P.H. - I recognize you have a lack of concern and do not see this as a far more epic event for those who take pride in the continuity, community, heritage, tradition and the coherent essence of the game. Most concern seems not about change itself, rather, the illusion of propaganda suggesting the new game is the rightful evolution of our 30+ year history: 4E is not dungeons and dragons - for if it is called that then then the true mantle of leadership for the game formerly known as D&D must go to a 'new chancellor' as DM Jeff suggests.

Each person will decide if this new game is right for them and there is respect for everyone's individual choice. However, those who can see this break from social game tradition about to arrive are voicing their concerns.

Ideally, as a community can we leverage our voices to repair this damage? As a first step, it is good to see that pro-4E folks are wondering if they are alone (as suggested by this thread) beacause a continued increase in voices who recognize XPUD's bad faith with consumers demonstrates that copyright or not, the players must be treated with more respect than has been recently shown (also see dungeon grrl's or DM Jeff's various posts on this subject). There must be a break from this monopolizing company that would abandon 30+ years of proud tradition so wantonly.

As a community, is it time for us to say clearly that there is a vacant job opening for leading the continuity and tradition of our game? Can we think of a way to continue a LEGITIMATE edition of our game without XPUD and their so-called designers?

And of course the game formerly known as D&D can never die.

But because of the copyright laws that XPUD lords-over everyone, my point is that this community might do well to consider some other game name whenever it is referring to the game tradition formerly supported by Hasbro.

@Psion - good points
@Razz - well worth your post going long, well said
@Dungeon Grrrl - I agree not buying 4E sends a message.

I flipped through XPUD's newly released garbage yesterday at my favorite game store. I was disgusted. (I can't even bring my self to spell out that company's name any more...)

4E IS NOT DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS It is a new game and it breaks the public's faith in that company's stewardship of the game's intellectual history and traditions. THE MUNCHKINS HAVE TAKEN OVER. Ostensibly, one can play 3.5 and still be playing Arneson & Gygax's game! However, one look at the new material propaganda, and you can see just how badly the fundamentals have been corrupted. Oh how my blood boils.

D&D is dead. Long live the game.

I deeply understand how someone born in the late 80s or early 90s might not appreciate this frustration. If all one has been introduced to is video games then I'm sure this "bleeping" system will appear normal.

@BPorter - right on, man! Great points, and I know you're just getting started.
@Aubrey - I respect your view, for many others this scenario may not be that simple.
@Sebastien - Sorry, this issue is bigger than your selection of t.v. shows.
@Wimsey - No. This scism has not even yet begun. It needs to happen. Those who feel this way are led to believe they're feeling misplaced *fill-in-the-emotion*, but they're feeling something valid, something important, but as a group can't seem to focus their rightful voice in a direction that the wizards in the ivory tower would even notice.
In fact, I propose, this is because there there should be a split, a meaningful departure from the wizards who even now are twisting their ringfingers and grinning because soon they will have monopolized the whole genre, catered to the very youngest of consumers, and leaving the rest behind, abandoned, without support, without the OGL, crushing any possible chance to have such a voice in the future.

In time I believe we'll realize what a monopoly feels like, soon we will not be guessing how bad it is to have the entire genre controlled unquestionably, and changed on whims of so-called "designer" preferences. I feel deep disappointment that the (4E writers) people fortunate enough to work on the game we love, don't demonstrate a coherent intimate understanding of what the game is all about.

Frankly, as Erik Mona has suggested, the heritage, history, legacy, and future of this game may be at stake. Please take a moment to see that as a good reason to have strong emotions. Please understand that the group of gamers who post on PAIZO message boards are still seeking to understand just why they feel so pissed. Let's stop defending the wizard's schemes - but begin as a group to recognize them and do something about it... while we still have a voice.

[With regard to RJ Dalton's post...] There are those who truly are RPG Superstars, whether they are published or not. As one characteristic, I belive not holding on so closely to one's creations is an important trait of any prolific writer. That is to say, no matter how brilliant your Gaea world is, RJ D, you should believe you possess the talent to craft hundreds of brilliant works. The mind is infinite, thoughts have no weight and occupy no space, and there is no such thing as 'writers-block.' So, if Paizo wishes to keep a work's intellectual property, or any property, I believe that is the price of admission. And, no less, a telling test of one's RPG Superstar mettle.

On a humorous note, my wife quickly pulled back the shower curtain on me this morning. She held my 6-month-old daughter and exclaimed, "So! You want to be an RPG Superstar, eh? Finally! A contest that combines what you love about reality TV and [Pathfinder]!" (She had seen the Paizo announcement page I left on the monitor early this morning.) She added, "But you know, hon, don't be upset in the end with the 'popularity contest' aspect — the fans are voting, right?"

I stood there dripping, thinking back on the worlds and worlds-within-worlds I'd created over the years. I smiled and thought, "Regardless whether limited time or my responsibilities permit me (or others like me) to join the fun of the contest, the dream of being a paid [Gamemastery] designer exists for us, just like Eric Mona's dream of being the editor of Dragon did for him so many years ago!

Thanks again, Paizo, for your brilliance and for recognizing (and seeking to leverage) the brilliance in others like RJ D and the many gamers who frequent this message board.

Paizo is a customer-friendly company. I am proud of their print quality, creativity and customer service. I remember how, after a few years of not playing, I was drawn back into the game by the enhancements Erik Mona and his team made to Dungeon magazine. Now, I am experiencing the same quality with the Paizo modules and Pathfinder. I see a pattern of success here, and no wonder—the guy who's childhood dream was to work on Dragon magazine is now the publisher! As for me, I encourage everyone to support Paizo and ditch the other company. Since 1983 I've been playing a game in which "kill the wizards" has been a recurring theme, perhaps there is ironic parallel in what our community should do by withdrawing consumer support from the other company. In a game revolving around heroes - I now see tyrants, bungling and grubbing tyrants who have had their souls magic-jarred by the forces of greed and incompetence. I agree that the 4E teaser video was a disaster. I could not help but also notice the discomfort of the presenters - what had they to hide that made them so nervous? I have no eloquent marketing explanation why, but just wanted to also share my deep disappointment in the controversial 4E teaser video. As role players, shouldn't we be able to recognize when when we've been asked to play the role of a fool. Shine on role-play community! For years I'd been such a purist, and would never consider materials that were not canon—those days are over, ...what a fool I'd been. Now, the same great writers are writing impressive OGL materials at Paizo. From the many posts I've been reading, it seems that change is not the issue but rather the integrity of what used to be the 'only game in town.'

I applaud Issue #114 and am subscribing right now. I have 22 yrs. experience with DnD, and I am thrilled with the layout, content, logo font (wonderful authentic Dnd feel to it), and thank you for getting rid of the gray boxes (they were so...TSR). Thank you for keeping alive the memory and thrill for those of us who originally opened that blue TSR box (early 1980s) along with the Isle of Dred! As a seasoned DM, I truly appreciate the 'regular feature' decisions you've made here. I am pulling out the credit card right now. Thank you.