Gonna go ahead and echo this as someone with personal experience in that regard. Met 2 people in a group once with that type of behavior and it was absolutely demeaning.
You had to pick a certain race with certain point buy for certain classes with certain specifications or else they would endlessly spew about how you were not getting the best out of your character and how that you were designing poorer characters and less useful to the group.
And if you picked a Martial? Oh boy, now you've gone from poorer characters to an outright liability and will now get a wall of text explaining why your fighter or rogue basically shouldn't exist because of how much better everyone else will be for picking their classes ect..
Needless to say, I didn't parley with that group for more than a few sessions.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Oh man, I'm not sure if my heart is ready for all this. I'll try to keep it prepared for sure. I don't normally like shots, but this one isn't the pointy needle type that interacts with me, so I say bring it on.
Reject My Paladin Compromise, and Then Talk About What Martial Characters Should Be Capable of Please
Oh yea for certain. That whole wall of text is something I envision for martials in general, not necessarily requiring a specialization of any sort. Just the pushing of their physical limits as far as we can go.
Reject My Paladin Compromise, and Then Talk About What Martial Characters Should Be Capable of Please
At least from a figher/monk/barb type deal:
BBEG locked up their fortress and has anti scry and fry? Just let the martial walk up to the gates and beat the gate or such senselessly until it falls, or shove their fist through those gates and tear the lock joints out like a child unwrapping presents.
High level fighter specifically should be able to weaponize just about anything. Table leg? Enemy Corpse? Still living enemy? A wooden cart? Swing em or throw em. It's all natural to ye.
Superhuman endurance. I reject the idea that superhuman abilities or talents can't duplicate or have quasi spell like effects. Sleep? Food? Water? Who needs it. High Level martials should be able to go several days while rejecting sleep and food and slightly less for rejecting any water before suffering any statistical penalties and or any of the above 3 become necessary. Endgame / high level martials should be able to march faster and for longer periods of time while taking reduced penalties if you wish as well. Intense weather or temperatures? As long as they aren't on another plane of existence, they can take a bit of it before needing to address it similar to a stripped down version of endure elements.
Need to bring the martial along underwater but didn't prepare enough water breathing? That's fine, A(n) high level / endgame martial should probably be able to hold their own breath for about 2 hours or so. Give em a bag of air and once they need it, they're good for another 2 hours.
Huge enemy? Save your silly enlarges, for we might not need it if the martial can still wrestle with an enemy about 20 ft or so tall with little issue.
Meat shielding against your enemies is probably a given so bring on the endless hordes ect...
Perfectly fine to feel this way, though as others have pointed out, you've likely yet to scratch the true surface of possibility with the existing content available. 10 years of support is a respectable amount for a tabletop RPG to go through iterating on itself without making a full break. The material isn't going anywhere and if anything else, maybe PF1e will have its own little OSR-style community where entire games may be spun off it in the coming future to extend and build upon flawed concepts without necessarily making a clean break from it.
At the end of the day however, a clean break may or may not be a great thing. The idea may sound unappealing but perhaps the execution will soften or eliminate the blow.
After all, remember that the ruleset of the game you currently love was derived from a system which itself threw away and/or reimagined 25 years of mechanics and traditions to make a clean break on a new system and most people would agree that it certainly became a much better game because of it.
Talek & Luna wrote:
Likely to do with the way Crits work in PF2. +10 AC excess or a nat 20 roll. That +2 is small only at a quick glance.
I'll go ahead an echo this dedicated Ancestries book (Ancestries of Golarion or such.) I'd rather keep the sort of afterthought type situations limited within the scope of PF2e's first outings.
Though as to the topic on hand, I'd be in for Ratfolk, non silly non crippled kobolds, Gnolls and Ghoran personally.
We were playing an Eldritch style game in 5e a couple of weeks ago. It was a group I was familiar with but hadn't been able to play with due to RL scheduling. Things have cleared up recently for now so I decided I was going to try my hand at it again and they all missed me as well so it worked out to a nice combo.
GM offered to homebrew in a quick Ratfolk but I told him I'd just go with whatever is present out of the list he was allowing. So the deal then became that he gave me a temp NPC turned PC, an Arcanist to finish off this little arc until the main story kicked up again and I could introduce my character proper(An Air Genasi Bard. College of Valor...probably should have gone swords but bleh).
I decided I was going to go down the erratic snarky type character stick given the details about this particular character and their part in the overall story. First few sessions go ok, I'm being snappy with the paladin and arguing some here and there IC about how I'm more trustworthy than the paladin because I've been nothing but right and they've made repeated wrong decisions(RNJesus in effect).
However we get to the point where we think the arc is likely to end with the attempted recover of a baby inside this weird mansion located in a demi plane. When the Paladin goes to pick up the baby, there isn't anything actually under the cover just the sheets. This does not stop the local nurse spirit from going absolutely ballistic and attacking the party...specifically the Paladin to start with. Combat starts we all take our attacks and what not and then the Wraith goes and attempts to touch the Paladin with a necrotic spell, failing horribly.
While the wraith nurse is screaming in fury and rage, a moment of inspiration struck as I proceeded to yell out:
"That's two things you can't take of lady! Your babies and your enemies!", to which combat suffered a multi minute pause and I was grated inspiration for post session.
As a fan of FFG Star wars RPG and having looked into their Recent Genesys system(which is mostly that regardless), this change excites me greatly.
Not really the biggest fan of binary success/failure systems over the years, so to see that one can make a save with potential minor/unintended consequences gets mechanically added to PF play is a big plus from me. A lot of extra flexibility for RP and effects this way.
That's usually because in many instances(At least IMO) there are somewhat clear boundaries as to what a magic user would and would not be able to do. Additionally in other cases the use of magical abilities carry with them varying levels of extreme penalties if they have softer or non existent power ceilings.
Many other worlds enforce specialization rules or outright forbid more godlike uses of power(Time travel, plane creation ect...). Pathfinder casters for the most part can dip their fingers into whatever they can get with little in the way of restriction.
The second addendum is that of consequence. Warhammer is actually a perfect example of this in regards to an unspecified power ceiling. Anytime a magic user in Fantasy or a Psyker in 40K wants to use their abilities they must either cast themselves or be receptive towards the influence of the warp.
High level users in either universe have virtually no limit as to what they can do, only what they can imagine. However everytime they open themselves up they risk serious harm to themselves, others, death or even Daemonic possession. PF Magi by comparison have little to lose when it comes to lack of concentration or a small blip. Even the optional Wild Magic Rules in unchained, bar maybe a handful are more of a nuisance than an actual consequence.
I've never really had a problem with the powers associated with Casters. Consequences of magic are a far bigger peeve in that respect to me. But in the case of this thread the other issue is assuming that "Mundane" in Golarion should be equivalent to "Mundane" in reality. There are plenty of Races in Pathfinder. There is no reason that say an Aasimar, Tiefling or Oread Fighter for example should be as Mundane as a straight up Human fighter considering the former 3 have supernatural origins and can likely call upon those backgrounds to do things others wouldn't be able to, like some of the more mythic heroes mentioned in the thread. Though by the same token I also happen to believe that it isn't too much a stretch to assume that someone capable of taking on a Balor is also far from Mundane or Average and is likely to possess or have gained some superhuman abilities regardless of Race to be able to achieve such a feat to begin with.
MR. H wrote:
Do we add narrative risk to magic.
I mean, that's more or less what it used to be prior to 3.0/5/PF and their removal of such drawbacks. Or rather than narrative it was more Mechanical in this specific instance.
Spells like Fireball or Lightning bolt could easily backfire on a Caster if not aimed properly enough.
Shout could defean you if you used it more than once every day.
Summons had a non trivial chance of turning on the caster in some situations.
The use of Haste aged your character by 5 years. Polymorph was a Self induced Save or Die roll due to the incredibly stress induced in the transformation ect...Though this is not to say magic should strictly be as harsh or resemble anything too similar to this.
The nature of Magic was more powerful but also widly volatile among other things. Closer to Dark Heresy and the nature of the Psyker in 40K as opposed to something just anyone born with the ability can handle. You would still completely outstrip martials by end game, just not as soon as you could in 3.5 systems. AD&D 2e was far from a perfect system and 3.0+ unification changes are absolutely fantastic, but the decision to amp the power of casters while basically removing most their drawbacks will never cease to confuse me.