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Wizard Statue

Pan's page

RPG Superstar 2013 Star Voter, 2014 Dedicated Voter. Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 2,740 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Pathfinder Society characters. 1 alias.


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Taldor

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I'mma shout out to Scott Betts. I often disagree with him but the man has some excellent posting skillz.

Oh and to my homies Iron Truth, greg helmberger, and Mark Hoover too.

Taldor

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Its ok I thnk your topic is very similar yet also different enough. I just posted the link because there might be some good reads for you in the "ick" thread.

I have two groups that tend to have pretty disparate styles. Group 1 is really into adventure/story/heroics. These guys are really into overarching plots and interesting adventures. They tend to prefer an indy jones style gamew here gore is pretty minimal and romance is a passing moment not something dwelled on. Action/adventure/story rules this table.

Group 2 is beer and pretzels. These guys are really into building characters and getting into fights. Thats tempered some with a few of us "plot" guys. These folks love gore and mature themes and joking around. In fact, one member of group 1 crossed over for a few motnhs but ended up stepping out because of playstyle differences. (we had one guy who has a problem tossing the word "gay" around in derogatory manner. The group has since come to a point we sternly told him "enough is enough" even for beer and pretzels we have our limit.)

I tend to be a bit of a chamleon so I adapt to whatever the group becomes comfortable with. I dont neccesarily have a preference but I do like variety hence two gaming groups.

Taldor

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Hide the body.

Taldor

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roysier wrote:

Honestly they need to hit a home run, they need something that is really attractive not just something that they want to do. The reason being is D&D next is a d20 system not that far removed from Pathfinder. Players will migrate over, older players coming back and brand new players will go to D&D first because they have heard the brand name and are not familiar with the Pathfinder brand.

My advise to Paizo if they want to put out a sure fire hit would be another kingdom building AP, the amount of gamers that came to Pathfinder due to that AP is staggering.

Not sure the system alone will draw the players. WOTC is the one who needs a home run in the adventure dept.

I certainly wouldn’t mind another kingdom builder! My hope is for urban political intrigue that takes place in Taldor completely though.

Taldor

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Please see this thread.

Taldor

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Player says: I bullrush the darkness.
Player means: seriously, I have no idea whats out there but imma bout to find out!

Taldor

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Its 1 part class selection and 99 parts teamwork.

Taldor

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Steve Geddes wrote:

That variance in player preference should ameliorate the cookie-cutter-ness, I would have thought.

I wonder if those groups who continually see all the same stats are dominated by one or two gurus with strong views about what stat allocations are 'best'. I know my group will tend to bow to the expertise of whoever has the deepest rules knowledge of our current system.

I am curious too. despite having a chargen session, I dont even know what the other players stat allocation is in our recently started Jade Regent. To think of it I went through kingmaker, Carrion Crown, half of serpent skull as either GM or player and couldnt tell you the stat allocation of the players other than my own if my life depeneded on it. What I can tell you is the race/class and personality of each PC. /shrug

Taldor

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There are a lot of tools at your disposal in these situations.
On the player side:
Take classes with spell lists so you can use wands
Take classes that can easily pump UMD so they can use wands
Hire a medic to tag along (GM dependant)
Take leadership to gain cohorts (only works if GM allows and high enough level)
"combat as war" Adventure really, really, carefully :)

On the GM side:
Allow the PCs to hire a merc to patch them up
Allow PCs to take leadership and get a cohort to patch them up.
Provide a liberal amount of healing potions, wands, etc.
Adapt adventures, encounters, monsters, etc to fit the style of the group to allow them to play with their chosen classes.
Take the hard knocks aproach and when the PCs die/TPK say "see this is what happens when you dont cover all the roles!" (Not reccomedned for most groups)

From what is in the OP it sounds like a combination of unwillingness to compromise and/or adapt on both sides. I think your prediction is correct. This is a slow moving train wreck you are currently watching.

Taldor

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Quark Blast wrote:
Pan wrote:
Not surprised but not a fan of pew-pew cannon casters and clerics. I really like how its written its a pleasure again to read D&D rule books. I hope to run a few one shots at various levels over the summer to get a feel for how this beast plays at the table. Thats about it for now.
I noticed that too. Wonder if they did that on purpose or it just fell out that way? Hmm... now that I think about it, I guess the editor would claim it was written that way on purpose LOL!

Oh yes its quite on purpose. I know many people hate the "crossbow wizard" and like to have a sun up to sun down caster option for blasting. I dont begrudge them that I just want a dial to turn that off when I play. Its a very cleverly written AEDU system. You can get rid of the encounter powers by modifying the short rest so some dial ability is built in. I am a litle surprised all this was in the basic game but I guess I shouldnt be.

Taldor

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Adjule wrote:
Apparently, Wizards of the Coast want people to get to 3rd level asap, so the amount needed to get from 1-2, and 2-3 is extremely small. 3rd level is when players can choose their focused path, so they want them to get to 3rd quickly. Why they didn't just do that at 1st, or even 2nd, I don't know. But oh well. I may change the experience progression, or just do away with experience points all together.

There are quite a few articles explaining the design decisions over at WOTC forums. I'll summarize a few of the ideas though.

Levels 1 and 2 are supposed to be like an introduction. These "apprentice" levels allow players to gain levels quickly and learn the process out of the gate before getting too far into the game. Some fans also wanted characters to start with low hp and few abilities to feel gritty.

By delaying archetype to level 3 it discourages multi-class dipping by not front-loading the classes.

My guess is that starting at level 3 will be a popular choice with 5E.

Taldor

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wow, hitting a guy with a shovel made the pally fall? The way I figure it the fall was just a matter of time anyways so alternatives are moot.

Taldor

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Wear sunscreen.

Taldor

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Diffan wrote:

At-Will magic (Cantrips / Orisons) - Taken from PF's at-will cantrips / 4E's at-will powers this allows caters to be casters throughout the day. Some people like it, others don't. It IS a fixed rule but I'm sure people can find ways to limit it. Personally I think it makes me playing a wizard feel more "wizardly" than "Um, I do nothing but "help action" to save on spell power" 3/4 encounters of the day.

This is the biggest stickler for me and am pretty sad they didnt put it on a dial. Maybe the PHB/DMG will give me some options to mod this unwanted feature.

diffan wrote:


Bounded Accuracy - This is one of the biggest draws for me. I'm getting really tired of he ridiculous bonuses, ACs, attack mods, etc. that I'm seeing with v3.5 / PF and 4E. I don't need to have PC's who has AC 29 - 32 at 13th level. It's just.....unnecessary and creates a HUGE immersion problem when viewed in conjunction with the rest of the world. I mean, my 13th level v3.5 Fighter has an AC 29. That means he can literally go into any small village and destroy EVERYTHING without fear of reprisal from the locals. Even if 30 villages attack him at once, his AC (even prone) is likely high enough (mechanically speaking) he can lay there for a while and not take damage. That, to me, is just dumb. With bounded accuracy, AC 18 is HIGH but still hit-able with a d20 + ability modifier.

I am 100% with you on BA. In fact, I would say its the crown jewel of 5E.

Taldor

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Na its 5E for me so I can differentiate it from other iterations. The only way to really stop E.warring is to not participate in it.

Taldor

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Can someone TL;DR that?

Taldor

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Get a wand of false life and stay out of trouble if possible.

Taldor

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Scott Betts wrote:
Pan wrote:
I dont think the reactions here are that negative. If anything they are rather lukewarm or neutral. It makes sense to me that PF fans are not that excited about a new D&D. People seem to be pretty content with 3E/PF and the huge libraries they built and 5E is not enticing enough to lure PF fans in; yet.

You may be right about the reactions being lukewarm, but my question revolves around why Pathfinder fans on one forum tend to have a [lukewarm/disappointed/negative/whatever] reaction to 5e's release, while Pathfinder fans on the other tend to have a positive reaction to it.

Both groups are Pathfinder fans, so why the tendency to react differently?

Quote:
Enworld in my experience tends to be a rather positive place which is why I enjoy reading there. Discussions tend to be more constructive even between folks with differing opinions.
That's been my experience as well, and probably has something to do with it.

Oh my bad. Yeah my guess is the folks who frequent here are pretty happy and lean towards being one system PF fans. PF fans on enworld are probably a little more open to multiple systems and switching things up.

Taldor

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Scott Betts wrote:
Auxmaulous wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
Auxmaulous wrote:

Yeah, two different websites and forums.

So, your point?
I guess if two things are different there's no point in exploring what those differences are or why they exist! How silly of me!
Well no, you have an agenda (and I get that) I just wanted you to come clean with the point you were trying to make.
I think my real question is why the Pathfinder fans here seem overwhelmingly disappointed in 5e, while the Pathfinder fans at ENWorld seem overwhelmingly pleased with it. Obviously merely liking Pathfinder isn't the differentiating factor, so I'm looking for thoughts on what that factor might actually be.

I dont think the reactions here are that negative. If anything they are rather lukewarm or neutral. It makes sense to me that PF fans are not that excited about a new D&D. People seem to be pretty content with 3E/PF and the huge libraries they built and 5E is not enticing enough to lure PF fans in; yet.

Enworld in my experience tends to be a rather positive place which is why I enjoy reading there. Discussions tend to be more constructive even between folks with differing opinions. It was a positive place during 4E launch too. Now RPG net seems much more negative about 5e then just about anywhere else. WOTC forums? That place is like a shelled out battlefield from the E.war.

Taldor

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Sometimes you have to walk. My best friends that I love to spend time with are the worst gamers ever. Sadly, I had to break off with them and form a new group that I took the time to screen and form. There is a point where you have to decide if your playstyle is worth giving up to keep rolling with someone you dont match up with. I can still go fishing or drinking or anything else with my good buds but now I get my gaming fix too.

Taldor

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Serpent Skull book 1 is fantastic. We loved it probably the best enrty of any AP so far. It plummets quickly after that though and serpent skull became a walk away for us.

Taldor

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Zhayne wrote:
That's flavor text, not rules text. It is non-binding and mutable and should have no bearing on its acceptance or refusal.

It may come as a surprise but some folks do indeed like PFS, Golarion, and gosh even PF. It's true you can compeltely disregard the flavor if you want, but some people like to embrace the spirit of the game as odd as that may seem to you.

Taldor

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insaneogeddon wrote:
Players seem to like being able to play things they find interesting but otherwise don't in low point buys and personally I think it highly unlikely any would make it to 1st and even get trained in a medieval type world with under average stats.... THIS IS SPARTA rules tended to apply - down the reject child pit with you !!! be it on purpose or because your siblings/tribes members beat you too food/took your food or you got diseased or tricked easily or just didn't have the charisma to be breast fed when times were tough/avoid being eaten etc. Such a different world today!

LOLWUT?

Taldor

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I see words and phrases like "one dimensional" and "more interesting" and am convinced this notion has little to do with balance.

Taldor

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yawn, please use search function before posting.

Taldor

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Put me in the clamp and cap camp.

Taldor

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"Hey Blondie do you know what you are......."

Taldor

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Matt Thomason wrote:
Pan wrote:
Might be a quirk of my group but we find a system fits each genre for us. So when we pick a fantasy system that's the system we use when playing fantasy.

Kinda related - It'd be nice if the RPG industry could settle on a standard for naming game systems. "Edition" still feels misused to me when applied to D&D, because 3e and 4e were new systems, as opposed to 2e that felt more like an evolution of 1e. Bottom line, 3e was a new game, so was 4e, and neither were really a new edition of the previous incarnation. 3.5e I'll quite happily accept as a newer edition of 3e.

It feels kinda dishonest to market something as a new edition when that usually implies it's been revised and corrected rather than thrown out in favor of a complete redesign. I don't mind trying out a new game, but please don't try to sell it to me as being an newer version of the one I'm already playing. That's like telling me Linux is a new edition of Windows, they may be somewhat similar in concept but they're not exactly compatible out of the box.

I was very casual at the time and dont rememeber the 2E-3E change over marketing. I was a hardcore player though during the 3E-4E and remember that changeover. It didnt bother me but I do think "the game remains the same" video was a big mistake. It does seem to imply that 4E was a revision or update. There was lots of dicussion online about the development of 4E. It really shouldnt have been a surprise that they were making some big changes to D&D. Also, you could have thumbed a copy of the PHB before buying.

To be fair I think WOTC is trying to get away from the word edition. The first breaking stories about 5E all used iteration instead. People have been trained to think each new iteration is an edition. So they instantly started referring to D&D:next as 5E. Old habits die hard. Cant really blame them for something that was decided decades ago. It's also not like gamers are begging for edition to be dropped either. You have to admit its an easy way to differentiate iterations without having to re-name each one.

Taldor

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Can these threads be combined?

Taldor

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Scott Betts wrote:
I kind of like the idea of giving the players metagame assistance with riddles based on character skill ranks - if you have 5 ranks/training/whatever in a skill, you get to do a Wikipedia search; 10 ranks and you get to use Google; etc.

Haha thats awesome. You probably just made Hama faint.

Taldor

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38. Why are you still standing there? Do you want my autograph before I kill you?

Taldor

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The hobbit; the totally expected trilogy.

Taldor

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Windspirit wrote:
I'm sorry but I don't understand the wining.

You dont understand so it must just be "wining". That was real nice of you.

windspirit wrote:

yes I understand that ppl have issues about a coherent vilian or thread from the start, I understand the objection that the AP is shifting gear a lot and that that the first AD is a dungeon crawl.

for me (and my players) the motivation is to get rich (PC) and have a good time (Player). This is all catered for.

I like this AP a lot as it gives me and my players a lot of freedom in the beginning to explore and define their characters and that's what roleplay is for me in the first place.

Having GMed CC before I enjoy the pace as CC didn't left much time for the PCs to domuch else then go on with it to catch up with the WW. Here the PC have (and enjoy) the ability to go after a dungeon to as bar, have a nice time...whatever

I read a lot of complains about structure and threads and motivation...and my answer is that you either motivate yourself (this AP) or you want to be motivated (other AP). however its the GM that makes the game not nesserly the AP.

Not everyone plays with a simplistic view of dungeon exists therefore characters have purpose. There are myriad ways to get rich and have fun in Golarion. What I as a player and GM expect from the AP is a variation on the typical module including an overall arching plot. Its nice when that is provided consistently so I dont have to do massive re-writes to make it happen.

windspirit wrote:
without diving to deep into it, I find that a lot of ppl nowadays make them self to dependent on outside influences insted of using their own imagination, resources..etc

There you go again dismissing people different then yourself. Why purchase an AP at all if all you need is imagination?

windspirit wrote:
have a look at some classic adventures from the 80ies...they clearly had the caption "does not include motivation"

I would argue the adventure path is an evolution of module design. With an AP you are getting a campaign and not just a town and a dungeon. Some players and GMs would like more then a loose thread of plot patchworking dungeon crawls together. Thats one viewpoint and when its not met people like to mention that to the writers letting them know their preference. Thats doesnt make them "winers" or people who lack imagination. It's just stating a preference and this is the only place available to possibly have that dialouge with the writers.

Taldor

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Charlie Bell wrote:

The more sandboxy the game is, the more likely I am to use actual XP rather than narrative leveling. As a player, I also prefer actual XP. XP is a reward for defeating challenges; narrative leveling removes the reward incentive because you just are whatever level you need to be when the plot requires it. Ultimately, it takes away a measure of player agency.

I do, however, use group XP. I am not about to track XP totals for 5 different people. Everybody's the same. I reward individual excellence in other ways.

Funny you should say this because using XP was causing my players to take agency from themselves. I couldnt believe how many times I heard, "I'd really like to explore that but its got to be a red herring or not worth much XP." I would facepalm everytime I heard that and it was often. The players were slaves to what they thought would net the XP. I tossed it and now they are free to persue whatever path they like. They love it.

Taldor

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Riggler wrote:
Why? Because I don't want to know what's coming three months ahead of time as the GM. I get too excited when I imagine how my players will react when they get there, that by the time they get there I'm over it already if I've had to wait more than a few weeks.

Hmm thats interesting I cant imagine running an AP without having the adventure in total. I refuse to run an AP until I have all 6 volumes so I can make my directors cuts to the campaign. Threads like this are very usfeul to folks like me because I see where the early adopters run into walls and avoid those pitfalls. I can see what you are talking about with the excitment and reaching that with your players at the same time. I guess i'm far more paitent and willing to wait for them to reach that point so I can unleash my version.

That said ive been a bit disapointed myself as written by a few of the early volumes. I like to have strong ties to the campaign in total and this AP doesnt start with strong ties. These things are pretty easy to overcome though with a little re-write by game master pan. Though I cant help but think this ones a little too tight in the railroady or episodic department. I wonder how much PFS sanctioned has to do with that?

Taldor

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Kirth Gersen wrote:
Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. Daario needs to be larger than life, not blend into the scenery. I was upset enough that they didn't include Strong Belwas; the least they could do is leave us with an unabashedly flamboyant Daario.

Yeah the new guy doesnt sell it at all. Not sure if its his fault or the showrunners. It feels like watching a daytime soap or rom-com every time he is on screen. Good thing is this is one of a few lowpoints for the show. Overall its still really good.

Taldor

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Going on 5 years now without XP has not been an issue. I wanted the players to stop thinking murder was the only way to advance. Been a sweet sweet sucess. So long XP dont miss you.

I will admit that my group really gets into the adventure plots. They enjoy the adventure a tad more than leveling or tracking progress. They know its going to happen so no worries. We also prefer lower level gaming in PF. So far the advancment tracks in the APs has been good enough for us.

Taldor

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Try here

and here

also here

Ive given up searching at this point but there are tons more.

Taldor

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MrSin wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:

Why would you want a Paladin that just emulates the God they've selected?

That's a Cleric

Because a paldin is a full BAB 4 level caster with auras and smite and a cleric is a 3/4 BAB class with domains and 9 level casting? They're mechanically two different classes?

Why would you want a cleric when you can play an inquisitor? Why would you want an inquisitor if you can play an warpriest? Why would you want a warpriest if you can play a paladin? Why would you want a paladin if you could be AM BARBARIAN!

Pretty much everyone wants to date the Paladin but nobody wants to marry her becasue of the baggage.

Taldor

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Why must they be punished?

Taldor

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In the old days of D&D Paladins were not about following Gods, that was the clerics thing. Oh no I stepped into a tarp!!!!

Taldor

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Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
More my problem is the whole level appropriate concept. Some wild animal has been killing villagers and live stock and the militia can't handle it. "An advanced feral dire bear?!? We're only 2nd level. We have no chance of killing it." Look if something can't be stopped local guard it is dangerous. They could have stopped a regular bear. You may have to spend some time digging a pit trap, run away a few times, gain some allies, or even go away and come back after you've gained some levels.

This illustrates the combat as war mentality real well. The party shouldnt assume every encounter will be an apropriate challenge for them. Either you risk death by trying to even the odds, or you leave be and find someone your own size.

Taldor

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Wow, nice deep reach into the bowels of the forum to retrieve this gem.

Taldor

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bugleyman wrote:
Also, I guess I shouldn't be surprised given where we are, but what is with all the people who prefer Pathfinder to a game they haven't seen yet? Isn't that like saying I liked Avengers better than I'll like Avengers 2?

Well there was the playtest. If you got to see say half of Avengers 2 you might be in position to say you like Avengers 1 better. Also, people have built huge libraries of 3E/PF and the question is "will you be switching or not?" I think saying im content with PF or what ive seen of 5E isnt compelling is valid.

Taldor

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Here we go...

Taldor

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MrSin wrote:
Pan wrote:
Really alignment aint no thing really for any other class. I mean unless you cant live within the descriptions for say a chaotic barb or a lawful monk. I still think there is tons of room to create a great character alongside alignment.
I find its not so much about you living within the descriptor as much as someone else's subjective ideal of a descriptor being used objectively. I've seen monks fall for some really silly reasons.

I cant deny that. Some of the stories I hear on the forums are truly heartbreaking. I dont think simply removing alignment is going to make that heart ache go away. Symptom not the problem and all that.

Taldor

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Tormsskull wrote:

Alignment at its core is a restriction; some people like restrictions, and some don't. More restrictions = more similarity, which can be a good thing. Example - Paladins, restricted to Lawful Good alignment, are the most similar to one another. As players, when we hear paladin, we probably all think of something close to one another, as opposed to when we hear "fighter" or "wizard."

If you view the classes as simply a collection of abilities, then of course you're going to dislike alignment (and other restrictions.) Using a classless system would seem to be preferable if this is your view.

Personally, I view the classes as more than simply a collection of abilities; they are a way of life. I read the description of the class, and then read the abilities/restrictions of the class in that context. It provides inspiration for role playing that character.

Problem is paladin is really a prestige class. Seriously, no other class works like it and it probably never should have been a base class to begin with. That cat is not going back in the bag unfortunately.

Really alignment aint no thing really for any other class. I mean unless you cant live within the descriptions for say a chaotic barb or a lawful monk. I still think there is tons of room to create a great character alongside alignment. Honestly I think some people just dont do well working inside a frame. The second they hear "you must follow this" they want to do the exact opposite. Choosing another class just wont do. /shrug.

Taldor

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(s)he is crazy. That stuff sounds fantastic. Struggling not to kill everyone should be a positive IMO. I guess my advice would be dont do the things you have been doing, but to me they sound like hella fun.

Taldor

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Icy Turbo wrote:

So if I understand, I should be fine unless we come across something that must be addressed? Sounds good. Also I would like a explanation on Caster OP? I'm just guessing because of the later level abillities for them?

Don't let caster OP worry you. There are tons and tons and tons of threads across the net you can read on the subject. Though I urge you to grab the reins and find out for yourself. In my experience the average and/or casual gamer doesn't have a tenth of the problems that are posted about daily. I cant guarantee you wont hit any bumps in the road but I can say 3E/PF is a load of fun. Good luck!

Taldor

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MrSin wrote:
Pan wrote:
My naswer is that modular design is in its infancy right now.
Is it in its infancy? I mean, gaming has been using it for at least a decade now.

Yeah well it doesnt work very well currently otherwise we wouldnt be having this conversation. I'd consider modular design still in its infancy.

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