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Wizard Statue

Pan's page

RPG Superstar 2013 Star Voter, 2014 Dedicated Voter. Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 3,568 posts (3,626 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Pathfinder Society characters. 4 aliases.


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Sovereign Court

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Jaelithe wrote:


In a round robin DMing setup, often a character is an NPC for three weeks and then a PC for two or three after that. I just don't see the problem as truly a problem, thus, perhaps because I'm used to that.

Yeah this explains a lot. This gaming style makes GMPC more than a useful tool, but a necessary one. Since you have a lot of practice I am guessing you have rounded off the edges of using GMPCs and are well practiced with them. Many folks continue to threadcrap the discussion of this thread but I for one am glad it happened because of hearing about others perspectives like this.

-Cheers

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pres man wrote:
I do find the whole, "The GMPC might have to interact with another NPC and that is just GM mental masturbation," idea a bit strange. I mean are there never two or more relevant NPCs "on stage" at the same time? A king, the queen, and the councilor? A general and his XO? Or is it always one "talker" NPC and a bunch of mooks?

Depends on how your table runs their games. At mine scenes that are role-play acted out always include the PCs, and thus the GMPC. Sure as GM I might have say, town guards and thieves, in the same scene with PCs and it all plays out as individuals. Though, if the PCs check out of a scene because they are finished, or not interested, I have to account for the GMPC. As I mentioned before my preference is to play GMPCs as individuals with motives and not party role filling robots. So if a GMPC is genuinely interested in seeing something through, the players sit back and wait while I act it out myself. That is odd, and not to a benefit of the game for us.

Sovereign Court

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Jaelithe wrote:

Kobold Cleaver raises an interesting point: What do you do if a DMPC is otherwise well-portrayed, but said portrayal crosses a line of tolerance for you based on what you want in an NPC? Do you keep your feelings to yourself, because it's not anything the DM is actually doing wrong, per se? Do you speak up and say, "Look, I'm sorry ... I just find it irritating"? Does it depend on the reaction from other players to said character? Do you graciously disengage and find another game (assuming that's an option)?

My gaming group goes through this process all the time. We often discuss game elements that we like/dislike. One example is XP. I have one player that loves XP and wants it to be part of the game. Everyone else hates XP and wants it removed from the game or kept under the hood. For the one player who loves XP, well he also loves our gaming group so he lets XP go because its worth it to him to keep playing. On the other hand, a player once mentioned that he has no taste for an evil campaign and would sit one out if the group wanted to play one badly enough. You have to weigh out your desire to play with what you are willing to sacrifice or put up with.

My group is comfortable enough doing this. What I have seen is a lot of folks who are not. They would rather put up with elements they greatly dislike because "bad gaming is better than no gaming." When this happens folks either sit on it and have less fun, or worse, they go one to sabotage the game in a passive aggressive protest to try and force the game in a direction they find more suitable. To avoid that I strongly suggest groups try and discuss gaming elements before and after sessions.

Jaelithe wrote:
As the DM, would you set aside your DMPC for the good of the player who gave it a go and still can't stand it? Would you weigh the overall reception the DMPC receives and tell him, "Sorry, but ... needs of the many"? Certainly a DM has a responsibility to the game, to the players' enjoyment and to his own. Is it wholly situational?

I'd say its entirely situational. You should always weigh the group vs. your own preferences. I think you can graciously bring up grievances for discussion. If you are odd man out, you should decide whether or not you can overlook the element for the good of the game. Its important to remember its a group activity so there needs to be some give and take. If one person is laying down an ultimatum against the rest of the group, I'd ask them to sit out as GM. Personally knowing my group a person would more likely remove themselves than force everyone to give up something they are interested in. YMMV.

Jaelithe wrote:

I think, for me, that's where I'd draw the line. If I genuinely couldn't handle a DMPC, and my players disliked the portrayal because of that, I'd ditch him or her. But if someone just said, "You know ... I can't help it. The very idea of it just grates on me, even though you're really not doing anything WRONG wrong." I'd likely say, "You know ... deep down, that's your problem."

Opinions?

Agreed. Folks need to be flexible to make this game work. Everyone has a breaking point though too where it might be a good idea to walk away or sit out. Like lets say you are good at running a GMPC, and everyone says you are good at running GMPCs, but they don't want you to because they don't like it. Do you drop the GMPCs or do you drop as GM?

Sovereign Court

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Jiggy wrote:
Pan wrote:
PFS is out of your control you have to temper expectations.
I'm not sure "putting up with public shaming and open derision of myself and others" is a reasonable form of "tempering expectations". :/

Sorry to hear that Jig. I have never experienced anything like this in PFS, but honestly my PFS has been very limited. I think this has less to do with role play definitions and more to do with not being a rude ahole in public games.

Sovereign Court

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Andrew Turner wrote:
I love this show. It has some if the best screenwriting of any series, beautiful dialogue.

Especially scenes with John Claire

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When I run Kobolds I tend to make them ambush fighters. They try their best to face foes in environments they have an advantage. Weapons are for swarming or mop up after the trap has done its job. Otherwise they will try their best to get a safe spot and use range attacks since they are not hardy enough for melee battle when given a choice.

You could optimize their weapons I guess but once you start down that path you can pretty much throw away 90% of weapons in the ultimate equipment book. I do think occasionally coming up with a beefy Kobold that can melee or a chieftain sorcerer that leads the pack can be fun. Id combine a boss with clever encounter places instead of worrying about optimizing equipment to challenge PCs with Kobolds and other similar monster types.

On the flip side, I always thought it peculiar that lycans use weapons while in hybrid form. So many modules have great axe wielding werewolves it just seems to defeat the purpose of being a lycan in the first place. Kinda points out how important weapons are to anything humanoid shaped in the game I guess.

Sovereign Court

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Jiggy wrote:

/snip

Was I roleplaying?

Who cares, did you have fun?

Sovereign Court

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The Green Tea Gamer wrote:

But that's not tea related...I thought we were gonna...with the thing...and the...

AaaaaarGh, my brain!

She/he roams the world looking for better healthier tea in her quest for ultimate fitness? I'm not sure how to do this....

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Speaking of rains of castamere being a huge National fan I was elated that Matt Berninger did the vocals for the show.

Sovereign Court

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The good news is its Fox, so this wont make it past season 1.

Sovereign Court

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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Was funny the first time but I think you can do better.

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I hear ya tGt. I used to drink a lot of soda and then decided to cut it out. At this point, I occasionally have a can and its about all I can take. After about 12oz it starts to feel like drinking pancake syrup. Though occasionally I gotta have a little especially with a slice of pizza or a plate of Chinese food.

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I'd let your players determine your aplomb or firmness and not the forums Mark. You might be searching for a problem where none exists and when folks start searching for problems they usually find one. In this case, you may harden your GM style, but your players stop having fun. Listen to Jig and spruce up the encounters in other ways than difficulty.

Sovereign Court

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Ive never wanted to PbP until now and only with this lot!

Ive decided it was terribly rude of me to plug Teasource and not mention any of the teas they offer.

For a good cassic black cup of tea you cant do much better than Earl Grey. Teasource has quite a few choices for grey. Of the dozen or so varieties my favorite is the Earl Grey "White Tip". Often Earl Greys tend to either drift too far into the aromatic or flavor points. I found that the White Tip is the perfect balance between the two.

Another classic black are the breakfast blends. English breakfast is very popular no thrills cup of tea. I like my morning cup to be a bit on the stronger side which is how I found the Scottish Breakfast blend. This bad boy is bold and helps you get ready to go at the crack of dawn. (which is often close to noon for myself on weekends)

If you want something in what I would consider the medium category you might want to try a Darjeeling. I prefer the Longview 2nd flush myself. You will get a more robust cup than white or green will provide, but it will taper off unlike black. This one is also very affordable.

Some folks have mentioned not wanting to add sweeteners or to step off using them. I find blends to be the friendliest teas when it comes to avoiding the need for sweeteners natural or artificial. Here are some suggestions;

Sticking with the classic theme the first up is the Georgia Sunshine This bold black has all the classic feel of a breakfast tea, but adds a wonderful kick of flavor with Peach and Ginger. In heavy doses the ginger really spices the tea up without making it too aromatic. A favorite of mine.

If black tends to be a little on the strong side you may want to try a white tea. Sticking with the peach theme I recommend Machu Peach-U This is a delightfully sweet tea giving it good flavor without the robust bitterness of traditional black tea. Also, the lack of ginger removes some of the spiciness. This is a wonderful place to start for folks new to tea and whites alike.

Lets go a little further out on a limb and try an Oolong blend. Teasources Rhunbarb Oolong is one of my favorite blends. The rhubarb might have you thinking too tart and you would be wrong. The Rhubarb adds a great pinch of sweetness making this a delightful cup straight up. Also, the Rhubarb kicks up the robustness of the Oolong making it a great stepping stone into darker teas.

Sorry greenteagamer I didnt review any green because they tend to be too light and earthy for my taste. Though I would be more than willing to listen to any recommendations you and the good folks on the paizo boards have to offer.

-Cheers

Sovereign Court

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Fake Healer wrote:
The whole argument breaks down into 2 sides: People that are good at running or have DMs who are good at running DMPCs and People who are not good at running or have DMs who are bad at running DMPCs.

Actually, there is a third side that doesn't like GMPCs on a concept level.

Fake Healer wrote:


There is no absolute "DMPCs are BAD/WRONG" or "DMPCs are TEH AWESOME" because their usage is based on the DM doing a good job at running them. If the DM can't do this, whether due to inability to not metagame, desire to play the Lord of the PCs, lack of time and effort to put into the roll, lack of fairly applying the rules across the whole table including his own PC, then a DMPC is gonna be a failure.
Mine are successes and my groups have agreed to the point that several people who were skeptics to the idea have switched sides on the issue. Long story short: DMs define whether the DMPC is going to be a success in the party or a failure by their ability to DM impartially and fairly without metagaming.

It is not entirely about running a GMPC well and impartial for some groups. Mine for instance likes the party to be a self contained system. It is important for them to face the challenges with their own skill and abilities. Perhaps this concept of the divided screen has a lot to do with our old school roots. In any event, it is a preference not to have GMPCs with the party because it violates a sense of a complete party. Completely subjective to certain groups such as my own, so yes GMPCs are not badwrongfun nor are they a necessity, but they certainly are a preference.

Fake Healer wrote:


If you can't do that that doesn't mean everyone else can't also. No absolutes. I can do it as can many others on this thread. If you can't perhaps you should look to improve your skills and see this as a chance to broaden your skills or accept that there is some shortcoming in this area that effects your ability to play a DMPC but doesn't make you a bad DM.

Isnt it possible to dislike GMPCs and not have shortcomings? I guess I wouldn't accuse folks who use prewritten adventures as lacking skill or having shortcomings for not writing their own adventures. It could simply be their preference. This post claims there is no badwrongfun when it comes to GMPCs but it does say you are lacking and/or have a shortcoming as a GM if you dont use them. So apparently it is a badwrongfun issue; at least for you.

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Jaelithe wrote:
Aranna wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
You can also have them roll a die, low roll has to play the healer.
This is STILL forcing someone to play a character they don't want to play...

Precisely.

If it comes down to something like this, well ... a GMPC/allied NPC is self-evidently a better solution.

Except when it becomes expected of a GM to fill in any role the players dont want to. I find it tiresome thinking that I have to create the game world, run encounters, roleplay the NPCs, and fill in for party roles because the players refuse to shore up a weakness. No the players have to meet me in the middle and cover the bases which I find entirely possible without a rogue/cleric in PF. As GM ill consider encounter design and strengthen/weaken or ban monster types as required.

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thaX wrote:


That is when Vancian Casting would be ripped from Role Playing games forever. Like it should have been in 3.0.

Yeah you keep barking up that tree, pal.

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For me GMPCs fail on a concept level. I feel its up to the players to build a team that can handle the adventure. If they choose to become a party of all wizards, then its on them to figure out how to make it work with no meatshield or divne caster power. There are plenty of options within the game rules to shore up weaknesses. With that said, I wont as GM kick a group in the nutz to make a point if they do have a weak spot, but i'm not going out of the way to avoid it either. I am not going to prop them up with an empty shell that agrees on all decisions and dispenses whatever the party requires of it mechanically.

That brings up my second problem of breaching the screen. For me there is a divide between the GM and players and each has their own role. The GM creates a world in which the players get to adventure in with interesting places and people. The players create larger than life characters that are meant to own the story and solve problems in their own unique ways. I feel running a GMPC puts one foot on each side of the screen which breaches the divide. I dont want to be in a situation where I have inside knowledge of whats ahead and have to don a veil of ignorance to play a GMPC. Whats worse is being in a situation where I might have to role-play with myself when the GMPC interacts with the world. As a player I feel GMPCs have the potential to take away a piece of agency which PCs already have little of. The best games are those where the GM and PC divide remains firmly intact; IMO.

Now there are a few instances where a short lived GMPC can help get you over a bump in the road. For instance, if the group loses a player temporarily or permanently a GMPC can fill the gap until the party can be rebalanced. Another example of a GMPC being helpful is if a PC has recently died. I would most likely stat up the NPC on a character sheet and have the player with a recently killed PC take over until there is a reasonable place to meet a new PC. In either event I would work diligently towards rebalancing the party to remove the GMPC and restore the proper GM and player divide.

This is of course all my preference there is no right or wrong answer when it comes to GMPCs. Personally though I believe that there is an important divide between GM and player and do not like it to be breached. GMPCs do exactly that in a number of ways that make them an avoid at all costs addition to any game I am in. Of course, as always, YMMV.

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They say early bird catches the worm, but the truth is that the second mouse gets the cheese.


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Grabbing the roses and heading over to ma's soon. Feelin good today had a celebration yesterday for finishing college again. 3 cakes, 2 kegs, and 25#s of smoked pulled pork all gone! I love it when a plan comes together. /lights cigar

I watched the simpons for awhile got tired of it same with family guy. I loved me some duck tails as a kid.

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Steve Geddes wrote:
I think if the WotC CEO managed to license the TTRPG and have it more successful than when it was produced in-house, he'd point out what a successful strategy that licensing decision was.

This is exactly my experience with CEOs. They care more about making the right moves for the company and making it successful anyway possible. Often that includes admitting failures and pointing out their good decisions in response.

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Jester David wrote:
Pan wrote:
Though they might license a brand out.
They might licence an aspect of a brand. If the RPG fails they might licence out the tabletop RPG. But that'll probably cost more than the majority of RPG publishers would be willing to pay. They're already licensing out the RPG's adventures. It'd be easy to keep the core book sales to themselves and licence accessories.

Well they licensed Star Wars to FFG so I'm sure they would find a company and figure they would be willing to agree on. Though making core themselves and licensing out from there makes a certain amount of sense. However....

Jester David wrote:
WotC might opt for a scorched earth tactic. If they fail at the RPG, why should they let someone else succeed? That just makes them look bad.

I honestly don't think Hasbro/WOTC would care what the TTPRG community thinks. So why not let someone else deal with it? As long as the money is coming in. In fact, if the books, video games, movies, TV, t-shirts, and flamethrowers take off, the possibility of licensing out the TTRPG are even more likely.

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Pretty much video games, film, and television outside of table topping. I cant stand fantasy literature.

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Just say no to GMPCs.


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/lights cigar

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Are we talking histearies now? eh... ok that was pretty terrible. I came into tea as a result of needing to change my lifestyle and partly because of my upbringing.

In my twenties I pretty much drank coffee all day, alcohol all night, and smoked from sun up to sun down. Bad diet on top of all that began to catch up to me eventually as I aged. I developed some pretty bad acid reflux as you can imagine, so the first thing that went was coffee, followed shortly by cigarettes. Then I cleaned up my diet mostly and so now I just enjoy massive amounts of alcohol and seem to be doing swell. I eventually gave up soda too. I was getting tired of drinking only water all the time. That is when I decided to try and dive into tea.

I figured that as big a thing as tea was (outside of yankee country anyway) there had to be something I was missing. Growing up my parents always reached for the most convenient, cheapest, rubbish of food and drink you can imagine. (God I am thinking seriously about throwing up right now thinking about Velveeta or kraft singles and how my mother used them constantly....) My family just didn't have a taste for the finer things which was kind of what propelled me into, not just enjoying, but demanding quality. Anyways as a child my Gran would have celestial seasons "throat coat" (God it was like drinking potpourri)or lipton so I just assumed tea sucked.

Eventually I got out and found the few best kept tea secrets of the twin cities. I learned there was a whole world of delectable loose leaf tea out there. The best part is there is no effect on my reflux. In fact, since switching from coffee and soda to tea and water, I feel ten years younger. Though I have been down south for travel and find sweet tea to be pretty gross because it is loaded with sugar. Most store bought iced teas are the same. I prefer black tea over most other varieties because it does well alone without needing supplements. Though when I do add to my tea, I prefer to keep it real with lemon and/or honey.

That is my teastory. double eh.... still terrible.

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Too much of good thing might kill ya.

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That is too bad. I have no idea why folks like to crash games. Though I'd be pretty annoyed if someone told me they crashed the campaign because they were bored and my game was stupid. Probably a blessing in disguise this happened so early in the game.

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There were "better" Transformer movies? Honestly Id rather see another sweat pea D&D movie than one done by Bay.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
A real D&D movie should be a little bit of Fellowship, a little bit of Indiana Jones, and maybe a little bit of a four-way buddy movie. That's what I see as "D&D": A bunch of weirdos with nothing in common being forced to work together, explore trap-filled ruins, and take on fantastical monsters.

I think this is the ticket. In fact this is what id love a PF movie to be.

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captain yesterday wrote:
Might've gotten missed but what about doing an adaption of the cartoon, nostalgia sells :-)

Nope didnt miss it just dismissed it :)


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lol, how did this get to "8 int/wis/cha" is retarded?

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Why is it so important that D&D TTRPG be good? What is wrong with alternatives? As long as D&D drags folks in it can be the gateway but it doesnt have to be the one and only.

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Morzadian wrote:

p.s I find the term 'dead tree' offensive. I love books, sure pdfs are much more portable and at times convenient, yet they don't show the respect to the great artists (Wayne Reynolds, Eva Widermann) that make the world of Golarion come alive. Their artworks need to be seen as a printed version.

Anyone who appreciates art; has been to an art gallery or a museum knows exactly what I'm talking about.

As someone who visits museums often, I'm not quite with you on this Morz. Museum quality art is a long way from the artwork printed books. You are not looking at Reynolds' actual handcrafted pieces, you are looking at a copy of them. There is no difference from the printed page or the digital copy; except in your head.

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Steve Geddes wrote:
Pan wrote:
Who cares about D&D as long as alternatives that are just as good are around? I mean I had no problem jumping to Pathfinder when they rolled it out since D&D at the time wasn't what I wanted to play.

I want the brand name to survive. The better known it is and the more likelihood there is of mainstream possibilities, the easier it is to raise serious capital (for movies, novel franchises, television shows, computer games or anything else).

I may not care about any of those things, but the more capital coming into the industry, the easier it is for people to carve out a career. The more fringe-y it gets, the more we have to continue to rely on part-timers and creative types doing us the favor of working for peanuts.

Yeah I have zero fear the brand will go away. I mean Atari is still a thing and its history is much worse than D&Ds. Some brands will never die. I don't think a strong TTRPG is necessary for a strong brand. I could have made my point much better I guess. Who cares if the D&D TTRPG sucks or diminishes into a poorly supported game as long as they pump the brand. The alternatives will benefit from it like you pointed out with additional career launching and a community interested in TTRPGs that dont suck.

*Please note I dont think 5E sucks, but even if I did I wouldn't be worried about D&D.

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Who cares about D&D as long as alternatives that are just as good are around? I mean I had no problem jumping to Pathfinder when they rolled it out since D&D at the time wasn't what I wanted to play.


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munch munch

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lol voyager

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memorax wrote:

Even the APS. After a point how many pre-made adventures does one need or want to spend the money on before deciding to make ones won. Even for a novive after running a few APS. One should be able to make ones encounters imo.

Can only speak for myself but I could buy APs forever. While I still do a ton of custom work when running an AP, having them is a big time saver and source of inspiration for me. I dont need rule splats so a PF 2E will never be due. Though clearly I'm not like everyone else.

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Screw splats I'm here for the adventure paths. As long as Paizo keeps those rolling I'm game.

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Kajehase wrote:
I'd say Abrams first Star Trek movie showed that he gets what Star Wars is about.

Excellent point! JJ's films were bad Star Trek but good theater movies. The type of movies that you love as its rolling across the screen then hate by the time you get home in the car.

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15. Imma try something new I read about on the Paizo forums....

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ryric wrote:
knightnday wrote:

Grindgrrind. "I'm leaving forever and ever" posts followed by a wall of text of why everyone will be sorry and was wrong.

Edited to add: The sad thing is this isn't even the first instance I ran across this morning. It is common across on-line games and other boards I frequent, or even in offline games (although I have been lucky enough not to have it happen recently).

Someone decides they are leaving and cannot just leave quietly; they have to make a POINT. Even if that point will be taken down by mods, there seems to be some need to let it all out. At an online game this morning that resulted in a huge post about why each of the administrators of the game and several of the players were just wrong, wrong, wrong.

The offline versions usually require slamming doors, squealing tires and a general sense that the individual wants someone to come out after them saying "no! not you! come back!"

If you are going to leave the forums, any forums, just go. Quietly, with some of your dignity intact. Railing at the Powers That Be or those sorry %$^#$^# won't get much more than some deleted posts and confusion for those that come in later. Rarely is anyone, offline or on, going to chase you down.

Drama for drama's sake just makes people tired.

This happens all the time on some MMO forums I frequent. The usual response to the giant wall of text is a sarcastic "can I have your stuff" by several posters, maybe with a "bye."

Sometimes I miss the old DDO forum "Hi, Welcome."

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Rhedyn wrote:
LazarX wrote:
There's competition only in the sense that most fans think that in order to love something you've gotta hate on everything else that's competing for the niche.
I do wonder if they actually compete for the same niche in any other sense than both require time to do?

For a long time there was only one big dog in the TTRPG fight. Sure there are many games but their support is pale in comparison of D&D. Just look at all the threads that try and force D&D to be an any setting or any time period system. Its because any day of the week you can get people lined up to join a D&D game. Try a Mad Max themed game using some lesser popular system and you will have to scour your local scene or rely on the internet to get a game going. TTRPG is just not that huge a deal and cant support a variety of real popular titles.

Now couple that with a change in traditional gamneplay with some new innovations and suddenly you have a division. These are basically the E.wars and they facilitate the huge hate mentioned above. Its not just a system you don't prefer, its a fight for the dominate system in a sea where there is only one whale. So yeah the time required to play is a factor but its only one in a series of variables.

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GreyWolfLord wrote:


Of more recent movies, Wrath of the Titans wasn't as well liked as much as I enjoyed it. People seemed to flock to Clash of the Titans, but Wrath seemed to not be favored as much.

I skipped Wrath because the Clash remake wasn't very good. I am a big fan of the classic Clash of the Titans that had Ray Harryhausen's SFX. My guess is a less than stellar remake probably hurt Wrath if its any good.

Which brings up Ray Harryhausen films, they are pretty awesome and while Clash of the Titans was a smash hit, many of Harryhausen's other films were what I would consider under the radar fantasy.

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I recommend looking into Haunting of Harrowstone the first adventure book for Carrion Crown. Its not exactly what you want but it will supply a lot of ideas for you to mine for your own game.

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captain yesterday wrote:
You see it a lot on the AP boards with supposed "plot holes" funniest part is when it starts out insulting the writers, like they're gonna wanna help after being called a stupid a*~%*#*

I think the APs are often loaded with plot opportunities but I have never insulted the writers because of that. If anything people are often critical of the process in how they are designed and produced. Though I agree when people insult the person involved that's bad form.


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wraithstrike wrote:

I just got reminded of another meme. People who go on rants about things, as if they were common board truths, when the rant is very inaccurate.

Examples: The policy of healing should not happen in combat... is taken as "Don't heal in combat ever".

Example: You should take power attack was changed to "You must always take power attack even if you are using TWF with a rogue".

Orly? What might have brought that up?

Sovereign Court

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The name is awesome and I can put on my Slayer Vinyl at home during combat!

Sovereign Court

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Scythia wrote:
Pan wrote:
Scythia wrote:


I haven't liked any of the D&D movies, myself.
I never said I liked them in particular but the D&D made for TV movies are better than the theatrical release IMO.

I understand what you're saying.

To me it's just a "choose between amputation of your left hand or right" type thing. I might prefer one to the other, but I prefer neither much more. :P

Like playing pick your favorite Uwe Bol movie. :)

Sovereign Court

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Scythia wrote:


I haven't liked any of the D&D movies, myself.

I never said I liked them in particular but the D&D made for TV movies are better than the theatrical release IMO.

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