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I feel a little vindicated. Because I whined louder than most for these. And our local joint can't keep any of them in stock.
So let's be honest. The pawns are doing well, aren't they Erik?
And I will tell you straight up. The Paizo artists own. I just.. That's the only way I can think of saying it. They own like Elmore owned in his heyday. That's how hard they own.
Very nice work. Look forward to seeing more of this.
On a side note: I suggested a while ago that you might look into a custom pawn creation kit, sort of like the old 'presto-magic' art dioramas from the 80s. The kind where you rubbed the image with a pencil and it dry transferred to the scene.
I think this would do really well by you and would be worth pursuing, as I believe the demand for your pawns is going to be beyond anything you have anticipated.
So what are the odds of getting a Kindle/E-Reader Optimized version of the Core Rulebook?
I know it comes in PDF. But the Kindle really can't handle it as a PDF. Reading it in landscape on an Ipad or similar device is really not so great either.
I for one would be all over this. As I am sure there are many other GMs who do a complete read through of the Core Rulebook every few months.
Just thought I would put a little blurb up as well for the people who are interested:
As far as numbering/marking your creatures who tend to be more numerous (say, a goblin horde), you MAY want to look at picking up some 'rub-on' style font sheets. These are available at any stationary store, come in a variety of font styles and sizes and are very easy to use. They also look VERY professional. I have been using them for other 'pawn/pog' substitutes to good effect while I have waited for a Paizo alternative.
I think if Paizo can get behind this idea, and put out good support for their Adventure Paths with these tokens, it will really do well for them.35 bucks for 300 tokens isn't bad.
1. I really, really wish it had been not just part of the design spec, but one which was actively considered in the design of the pawns. But its fine. Its a small gripe.
2. No. I was not. And damn you for making me like you guys again. I can't tell you what a spanktastic idea I think that is. I am sure not everyone will agree with me, but as a GM, I LOVE when I am prepping an adventure having a physical manifestation of what I am going to throw at the PCs handy. I don't know why. It just helps.
3. Good choice on the scale.
4. I suggest looking into the feasibility of 'custom' PC pawns using 'dry transfer' style art (the old rub-on style decal you used with a pencil. The eighties babies won't get it until they see it, but some of you who predate the internet know what I am talking about). The tech for this is DECADES old and I think its a great alternative to painting miniatures.
My vision is something like this. You get a pawn of a bald humanoid (say an elf). And from a dry transfer sheet, you put a hairstyle on him, an armor set and a weapon. If you are feeling ambitious, include a dry transfer sheet of letters so the name can go at the top. Time investment in making this 'custom pawn' a player can get emotionally invested in: probably fifteen minutes tops. But the value they place on it? Probably alot. Just some food for thought.
My guess is: after the first 2-3 pawn sets hit the market and Pazio sees if sales warrant it.
Well. Sadly, (and no, it is not a flame) Paizo is getting onto the scene a bit late. The current Warhammer Fantasy RPG supplements are releasing really high end card board pawns, and are due out with their own bestiary box which will have 'rub on' style transfers of weapons and accessories. Which is an idea I put out on THESE forums some time ago. I know more than a few GMs I have mentored have adopted the Warhammer RPG Pawns for their own games.
I feel almost honor bound to support this product, since I was one of the more vocal people that asked for it. But I do have some concerns:
1) Will these be dry erase friendly?
I remember this one time. In Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying, the group I was running through Enemy Within ran into just this random Troll on the 'random encounter' table. And man. It tore them a new one. They couldn't get the troll all the way down. And the troll just couldn't seem to get enough wounds on the tank to get to the casters. So it sort of ended with them fleeing. And the troll healing up. I honestly didn't intend for it to jack them up quite so bad. But they had sort of had an easy run of it until that point. They had a good group make up. And anyone who played the old Warhammer FRP can tell you, once Mages got through their first career path, they were sort of ridiculous.
But then man. I had this idea. What if this Troll chased them? You know. Dogged their every step? Was there at the worst possible moment? Like.. I was almost gas lighting this party with this random Troll. Was it going to show up in the middle of a bigger fight? Was it the muscle for this goblin syndicate they were having problems with?
I eventually retired it. But man. Not before it had picked up armor use, weapon profiencies, minor spell use. I sort of leveled it to keep pace with the party if you can dig. And you know. Even that damn Battle Mage absolute would NOT spend his last magic point in a fight. just in case he needed it for a flame spike on that damn troll.
It was weird. Enemy Within had a freaking ridiculously good cast of characters and villains. But the dudes I ran it for in Germany always email reminiscing about that one random troll that just always kept popping up. A couple of them were sincerely amazed that this troll was literally something of their own making. If they hadn't made such a big thing of the encounter, I would never have had the idea to make it such a cool foe.
So yeah. I guess I identify with the Troll. :)
Imitation is the nicest form of flattery. So thanks man.
I won't point out that WizKids has traded hands more time in the last five years than the rights to the Beatle's music. Or the fact that even Heroscape, which was BoardGameGeeks highest rated collectable miniatures game is now defunct. As far as a new D&D miniatures game? That is news to me. Maybe they didn't get their heads kicked in on it enough the first time around?
If you wanted a Pre-Painted Collectible Pathfinder Miniatures Game I am glad you are getting one.
I am also glad that apparently sometime in the unforeseeable future those of us who want it are getting an alternative to this.
I am going to keep asking and talking about it until I see it though.
Enjoy your miniatures game. If it turns out to be something you hate, check out Heroscape. That was a pretty good system. And you get get trunkloads of it for cheap.
I realize I am contradicting my desire for pogs. Which I personally favor. But I do agree. The pawns from the Beginner Box are great. However. If this is going to be the direction things are going, then hopefully a 'base' system for them will be developed. That is why pogs were such a great thing in my opinion. A medium size creature took up a five foot square on a 1 square=5' map. With say a Frost Giant pawn for example, unless you have a huge plastic base to display its footprint, its not going to really... 'work'. For lack of a better word. Its late, and I am probably not articulating this as well as I could if I weren't. But you get the idea.
And to Erik. Indeed. I have been happy with the Wizards of the Coast POGs for sometime. I have a s~$~load of them.
But for what it is worth, I wish that money had gone to Paizo. I am confident you could do a better job. Even with just an ugly cardboard pog.
Am I being untruthful? Is that not EXACTLY what they are? I just would like some consistent reasoning why you feel portrait based pogs are good enough for your Core Rule Book, but not good enough to play with on a physical table top. Thanks.I heard them fancy computifying machines can put pictures on top of other pictures, them print them into books!! ;)
You obviously didn't bother to comprehend what I wrote. Or do any research yourself. So by all means. Get condescending. Your bruised sense of Forum Ownership and Epeenery makes me laugh. And it most certainly doesn't bother me.
If POGs suck so bad, why has Wizards of the Coast moved entirely away from their plastic miniature line to produce them? Do you think the HASBRO TOYS COMPANY isn't interested in making money off PLASTIC FIGURES?
If cramped one dimensional art is so terrible, explain to me the success of GameMastery Map Packs. All of which are on 4"x6" card stock.
And last but not least. With all the options available to their fancy computifying machines of putting pictures on top of other pictures, the method Paizo chose to demonstrate mechanics of play in the Pathfinder Core Rule Book was to use portrait based POGS on a Map Pack style map. How would drawing that, digitizing it, and photoshopping it been easier than putting a painted figure on a grid and taking a picture with a camera?
Steve Geddes wrote:
Because this is exactly how a business executive would say 'We have considered a more affordable alternative, but would rather not deter anyone from the more expensive option.'
What about the Paper Minis?
I would love to see them offer this exact artwork as a physical product on high quality die-cut card stock with a base system that represented creatures 'size' footprint on a GameMastery style flipmat aid. But I don't want to print out, cut out, laminate and mount paper minis/pogs or pawns much the same way that someone who is buying Pre-Painted miniatures doesn't want to assemble, prep and paint pewter/lead/plastic miniature models.
Erik Mona wrote:
Am I being untruthful? Is that not EXACTLY what they are? I just would like some consistent reasoning why you feel portrait based pogs are good enough for your Core Rule Book, but not good enough to play with on a physical table top. Thanks.
Erik Mona wrote:
Well. Fortunately I am not an impossible guy to please. I DO like the POGs. I think you are vastly underestimating their potential and utility. But whatever. I also LOVE the Pawns that came with the Pathfinder Boxed set. I bought it for the pawns alone. And am happy with the money I spent on it. I think you would be very well served by getting your artists together with your game aid people from GamesMastery and pursuing this. My concern is this though. Once the WizKid collectible miniatures game is out, I find it VERY unlikely they will not exert pressure to stifle the development of any product they perceive as competition for their miniatures.
By not offering ANY KIND of a physical alternative to prepainted miniatures, you are FORCING me to buy from your biggest direct competitor. Take a few moments of your valuable time, go to Amazon.com, and read the reviews of people who bought the 4th Edition Monster Vault SOLELY for the pogs that play your game.
Also. There are Dungeons and Dragons Flipmats. Does this mean that GameMastery is going to stop producing them?
Lastely. 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons uses a plastic miniature on a flip mat for their 'examples of play'. It was first published in 2008. The Pathfinder Core Rulebook was published in 2009 and uses a graphic representation of a Portrait Pog on a flipmat for it's 'Examples of Play. Am just curious since you were there from Day One how this happened?
They are exactly cut and paste images of Portrait Pogs on a Flipmap Steve. This top-down approach to illustration is not necessary for a rulebook. Warhammer and Warhammer 40K do not use it. Flames of War does not use it. As a matter of fact, the only systems that I have seen use it, Roleplaying or Miniature System are D&D 3.0, 3.5 and Pathfinder. 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons used their line of prepainted plastic miniatures on a flipmat for their 'examples of play.' The Portrait Pogs on a Flipmat IS a great system for tactical combat though. And I have no doubt this is why it was used for the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.
My 'zeal' is mainly that I have concerns. 1. Once this miniature system is out, I really doubt that WizKids won't exert pressure on Paizo to prevent the release of anything WizKids perceive as competition for their collectible miniatures game. 2. If you don't ask for something, you typically don't get it. 3. I really do feel like if somebody doesn't keep bringing this up it will get regulated to the 'meh. we are thinking about it' bin. 4. I want to make sure the artists for Paizo have gainful employment through the winter to have money for coal. It may be cold where they are. Did you ever think of that? Huh? Well did you?
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
This is exactly why I use them in my games.
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
I have bad news for you. This is not what I want.
I do realize that the PDF option may appease some people. And that is well and good. A downloadable POG option that I have to cut out, mount, laminate and label is not what I want though. The people who wanted pre-painted randomly boxed miniatures got a pre-painted randomly boxed miniatures system. I want a die cut cardboard option offered as a standalone product done by the Paizo art team that is to scale with the GameMastery floor plans. Dry Erase and Alcohol Pen friendly. It would be nice if it had an 'on the board' footprint that represented its 'in game' size. I want these items not as a freebee hand out. But something I want to BUY. With money. I think that while I may be the most vocal person asking for them at the moment, that there are a great deal of other people who want the same.
I am not going away. I am not going to stop asking for it.
Thank you for your time :)
Erik Mona wrote:
But Erik. YOU have ALREADY DONE the POG THING. YOU HAVE. IN EVERY example of tactical play in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook (and many of the supplements) the situation is put forth using what are obviously face portrait pogs on a non-3d style mat. This obviously has its roots from the 3.0 and 3.5 editions of D&D. But still. That was then. This is now. YOU, MY FRIEND. ARE STILL USING POGS. And whether you hate them or not. You are advocating their use over EVERYTHING ELSE. Thanks for that :) Now make me some damn pogs please. Preferably with a dry-erase or alcohol erasable surface. Make them JUST LIKE the ones used in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. :D Thanks.
Well. Apparently people whined long enough to get a Pathfinder Pre-Painted Collectible (Random) Miniatures game. And I for one am glad they got what they asked for.
I am asking for something else. And I am not alone in asking for this. Just perhaps the most vocal.
I would like to see the pawn/pog alternative actively explored by Paizo. I think this is something that would not have to be farmed out and could be done all under the roof of the GameMastery line of products. To me it seems kind of obvious. You make cardboard flipmats and settings when you could have made a plastic model (reference Dwarven Forge). Why not make cardboard miniatures for that same system?
But by all means. Keep flaming me though. It keeps the discussion alive.
I also find it very ironic that Erik would flame the idea of doing POGs for Pathfinder, when in the PATHFINDER CORE RULEBOOK ITSELF! the examples of play use what is obviously a cardboard pog on a flipstyle mat. (See page 192 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook for one of MANY instances where POGS are used to represent PCs, NPCs and Monsters in tactical situations).
Maybe the guys who actually created the game just thought they were better to use. :D
If I didn't believe that Paizo could put out something like this and do a fantastic, game changing job of it, I wouldn't be so passionate about pushing the idea.
Just some food for thought.
Vic Wertz wrote:
Okay. Let me be a little more clear.
I would like a Pog or Pawn alternative to prepainted or unpainted miniatures. I would like to see something similar the cardboard Pawns included in the Pathfinder Beginners boxed set. I would like to see them kept to the scale of the GameMastery flipmaps and settings. I would like to see a system for bases incorporated into that design that facilitated being able to use alchohol erasable markers on them.
And lastly. I don't want to have to print them and cut them out myself.
The PDF ones are fantastic. By the way. If you want to print those out and sell them on high quality card stock as die cut pawns, I for one would be all over them. I just don't want to spend my life cutting them out. To be honest. :)
Heya. Am sure I am not the first to ask for this. And have been asking it for a while. But thought I would post here in the hopes that someone with some decision making authority will see it.
I would really like to see some GameMastery cardboard pogs or pawns to represent PCs, NPCs and Monsters from Pathfinder.
I have seen the pawns for the Pathfinder Beginners set. And they are beautiful. However. I use almost exclusively the WotC Pog style counters, because they provide a 'foot print' of what the creature in question would take up space wise. This would be difficult to accomplish with a pawn. Though I do think it could be done if you made your own 'in house' bases.
What I am mainly looking for is the art style used in the GamesMastery stuff, and particularly, the Pathfinder Beastiary. And I think the GameMastery guys know how to make something like this which will set the standard for a long time to come.
Also. Any pawn/pog design that incorporated an alchohol erasable pen surface would be awesome. Another design benefit of the WotC pogs is, you can flip them over and have a 'dead' body (the bloody side for those familiar).
Whatever you can consider would be MOST appreciated. I really, really want to use Paizo products exclusively in my games. I find them to be of the highest standard. But I will not buy random packs of prepainted miniatures. And hope that you will offer an alternative to the Wizkids produced miniatures.
Thank you for your consideration.
None of the Wizkids games, from HeroClix to Mageknight to Crimson Skies had as long a run or as many expansions as Heroscape. Might want to get your facts straight yourself.
And if voicing concerns to a company and hobby I have a vested interest in is trolling, then I am indeed a troll. Rawr. Any little fat kids around for me to eat? (now you are being trolled).
I am sorry if I offended any Wizkids stockholders or fans. I just am not a believer in the 'random' box of anything. For a pen and paper roleplaying system, it seems alot like a money sink.
I am glad that people who want painted miniatures are getting the opportunity to buy random packs of painted miniatures. I honestly am. I just wish that the people who had been asking for a cardboard alternative had gotten something more than a few dozen in a box with other stuff we didn't really need. Especially when I can look at the cardboard flipmats GameMastery makes.
But I have hope that this will be addressed. The pawns are indeed beautiful. And I can now retire 20 or so of my WotC pogs. I will find it the height of amusement if the Pathfinder Beginning Box has more net sails than the collectible miniatures game :P Either way, I guess it is win win for Paizo. And I do love the Paizo products.
So yeah. Flame on. LOL.
If you want to make a random miniatures game, make a random miniatures game. It has been done before. And I doubt it will ever be done as well as Heroscape did it. I go by what history teaches. And Ebay is full of trunks of secondary market collectible miniatures from defunct games.
What I am complaining about is my belief that this is being offered to pen and paper role players as a 'game aid' and instead of a POG/Pawn solution. I think that the Pathfinder would be much better served by a POG/Pawn system than a random collectible miniatures system.
It really doesn't affect me to be honest. If I gave the impression I was overly emotionally involved either way, believe me. I am not. I use the pogs from the Monster Vault, and a bunch of the freebee ones WotC released for their 'dungeon encounters' crap. Its about the only thing that WotC makes that interests me.
Having said that. I do have money to spend. And would love to spend it on a cardboard alternative done by the artists responsible for the art in the Pathfinder books.
A cardboard pawn/pog system could also be easily incorporated into a virtual table top system, something that Pathfinder lacks at the moment.
I have been as constructive as I can be. Now that the Pathfinder's Beginner Box is out, put out a poll of how many bought it for the cardboard pawns alone.
Erik Mona wrote:
Okay. Let me quantify this then. I do like the pog style counters from the 4th Edition D and D Monster Vault. However. When I ask for a cardboard alternative to pre-painted plastic minatiatures, I am just using the pog style counters as a 'basic' idea.If you make high quality card board pawns, provide an array of creature and NPC types. I promise I will be on that like a fat kid on a doughnut. I own just about everything GameMastery makes. Put those kids to work on A Bestiary series of card board pawns. And then really crack the whip and make them do module and encounter packs. And I will buy two of everything you make.
And then use all the fat loot you get from that to buy a good virtual table top system, and put Wizards of the Coast out of business. I know dudes who SWEAR by hand painted lead miniatures who would buy GameMastery made pawns. Just because their stuff is that good.
I am not even charging you for this fantastic advice. Just name an ogre magi after me or something.
I feel like you sharp shot me a little bit on this one, tbh Ericka. All you had to say was 'we are considering a cardboard alternative to random packs of pre-painted plastic miniatures.'
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
I didn't say miniatures were a fad. I said Pre-Painted Collectible spin-offs were a fad. Even the good ones (Heroscape for example) have not stood the test of time. Most have a MUCH shorter life than Heroscape.This is what I have personally seen as being an active enthusiast in pen and paper role playing games for 30 years:
People who use miniatures for roleplaying games buy unpainted miniatures and paint them themselves.
People who don't use miniatures for roleplaying games use tokens. And by far, most of the GMs I know prefer tokens. They provide a good and accurate representation of the encounter without the distraction that a horde of painted (or unpainted) miniatures provide. They are also VERY cost effective. And for alot of people picking up pen and paper rpgs, this was a factor in picking the hobby in the first place.
From what I have seen, the cardboard standies included in the Pathfinder Beginners Box are first class. I hope this is a product that they consider making available. Because the art for the Pathfinder bestiaries is superior to anything else on the market.
I would not be sweating on this too much. I remember a friend of mine who was into the D and D minature thing obsessed about some rare Red Dragon figure that was 'uber rare release only for special collectors.' Turns out, that thing was everywhere. I bought him one from Barnes and Noble for like 4 bucks when it was on sale.
Wizkids are not going to waste that mold. They are going to have it be a limited initial run. And then mass produce the hell out of it when the demand is up.
This whole collectible miniature thing just needs to go away. There isn't a single random-collectible miniature game in existence that has not gone belly up. And pen and paper role playing gamers are ENTIRELY the wrong demographic to market this too. Sure. I bet that there are a few who are into it. I just really doubt it is going to generate enough interest to keep going.
Just my thoughts.
Flame on :)
Dream Daemon wrote:
These would be like the cardboard tokens found in the 4th Edition D&D Monster Vault (among other products). They provide a very nice alternative to painted (and painting) miniatures. They are also a much more effective way to go for a publishing company that already has an in-house 'game aid' design team (referencing the GameMastery table top maps).
I am sure I am going to get flamed as a hater, and that is fine. But much like every other discontinued and short lived pre-painted miniature franchise, I just think this is going to end up in the 80% off bin at the local game stores.
I just can't tell you how much I wish they had gone with a high quality die-cut card board token set. This combined with the fantastic table top maps that Paizo make could have easily paved the way for a great Pathfinder virtual table top system.
If WotC were smart, they would start cranking out boxes of die-cut counters. I think that would kill this collectible miniature thing in the crib.
Just my thoughts. Flame away.
Have fun with your prepainted miniatures. Much like the other line of prepainted crap that is out there, I look forward to seeing it rot on the shelves.
The only thing I see anyone buying from WotC these days is their Monster Vault. The local store I buy from had an epiphany and opened a box to show people what they get. People want it for the monster tokens. I know people from pretty much every system out there that use it. And while it is just 'paper minis', which I suppose you could print out for yourself, its 30 bucks for the box, and you get a f~$&ing ton of them. And they are glossy and pretty and high quality. And they are definately not s!!@ you could just 'print out'.
I will repost in six months with either an apology, or much more likely, laughing my ass off and wondering when you will release a Beastiery Box set with tokens.
30 Bucks Plus for a box of pre painted plastic miniatures. LOL.
Have fun with that.
Fair enough. I will repost it without the offending Verb.
At least you read it though.
I don't remember exactly what I had, so I will try to paraphrase:
Painted Miniatures? Fire the huge bad that had that idea, and hire someone that isn't suffering from a recent lobotomy.
The pre painted miniature thing was a disaster for WoTC. I see trunkloads of that garbage being offered on EBAY for .99 cents.
I can't believe with the obvious success of the GameMastery cardboard flats that the next logical step was 'HEY. LETS DO PRE PAINTED MINIATURES. YOU KNOW. BECAUSE THAT HAS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE AND EPICALLY FAILED'
Drop this s@!%. Put your artists to work on pogs. Fire the moron who had the painted miniature idea. Promote someone who has the number for a printer who can do high quality die cut cardboard in their rolodex.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe this is the way to go. If it is. Just point me to the post of ONE damn person asking for painted miniatures.
Because I can link about 200 on your own damn boards of people asking for Official Pathfinder cardboard pogs.
Respectfully and Ernestly,
Make the damn pogs and continue to destroy your competition. Sincerely. Whoever the brainchild of this abortion was needs to be let go.
You are going to make way more money off of this, and you could keep it all in house. Please. Listen to reason.
Very serious gamers whose opinion I take very seriously on these matters have said Fantasy Grounds is the way to go for Virtual Table Tops. These are mostly guys in the military playing overseas. They know the difference between bad and awesome.
If I get into a virtual table top, it will be Fantasy Grounds.
I would prefer to play Pathfinder on Fantasy Grounds. But if it is not supported, I will probably just look for Savage Worlds games. While I do not believe it is anywhere near as good as Pathfinder, it beats the crap out of anything else.
give them the liscence. Make money. The mac users have better things to do with their time than play games anyway.
Like mow lawns for a new pc.
James Jacobs wrote:
I wasn't trying to beat you up mate. I am just saying (or trying to articulate) I would rather be buying the Paizo Publishing GameMastery Box of Monster Tokens than I would the Hasbro Toys Wizards of the Coast Box of Monster Tokens. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.
Having put that out there Your art guys need to go down and buy the damn 4th Edition Monster Vault, and get on making it happen. Sitting on it is only costing you money. And while it is a hobbey we all love, and money isn't everything.....
Its always nice to have the money.
So for Christmas this year my brother asked me what I wanted. And I responded with 'well, I am playing this pen and paper RPG called Pathfinder. They are coming out with a second Bestiary. Should be able to find it on Amazon. Get me that.' Well for whatever reason, my brother got it in his head to go down to the local hobbey shop and look.