Mistress Kayltanya

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I have a question I am hoping someone can answer. I've put together Thornkeep as a campaign for my group

However, I noticed that as you head downwards into the dungeon; The Dark Menagerie is for lvl 5 PCs and it comes AFTER Sanctum of a Lost Age which is lvl 7 PCs.

Is the intent that you somehow bypass one and come back later? Has anyone solved this conundrum?

Thanks!


That link didn't seem to work for me! Am I doing something wrong there? :)

Also, since this appears to be a thread about Thornkeep, I thought I'd just ask here - The Dark Menagerie is lvl 5, yet Sanctum of a Lost Age is 7. Do you play those out of order somehow when running a campaign, even though one is above the other in the wrong order?


I'd be interested in this as well.

In fact, I was looking over the hero lab files that are available for the community and I can't find them. Does anyone know if there are any hero lab files available out there somewhere for Thornkeep?

Thanks :)


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brad2411 wrote:
I might be a little confused i know hero lab has the magic items and stuff from the AP's but does it have more then that?

Hero Lab can be used to track your encounters that a group would go up against as a DM. People have created save files for each encounter in entire AP's and modules. You load up that save file and then you have all the monster stats in an easy to access format which lets you quickly look up what spells, feats, traits, etc. do. It's very handy!

You can also use those hero lab save files and load them into combat manager to run the initiative/damage/etc.

Game Space Beta Tester

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Not sure if invites are still being handed out - but our group currently uses roll20 and I'd rather start giving Paizo Gamespace a go and help to develop it given we'll likely switch to it! If anyone is feeling generous when they read this, please send a long an invite! Thanks so much.


Hey guys - we won't be able to join again tomorrow or next week - unfortunately! My relatives are with me from Australia and we've had to play it by ear. Have heaps of fun - they will definitely be gone after July 4th, so I'll be able to join back up then.

One quick note: Once you go back to town, someone should sell the items I had listed earlier and split it by the people who were in that session.


MarvelWolf wrote:
Just wondering, how much do all those potions weight for Saria??

Potions pretty much weigh nothing. I've got it all in Hero Lab which tracks all my encumbrance. There's no listed weights (in other words - it's super light), thankfully!

But if anyone ever wants any potions, they are more than welcome to them. I try to make sure everyone is carrying at least 1 potion of cure light, and anything else that might be useful.


I just worked out from Cryos' previous post that we should all have 1626.7 gold pieces each. So be sure to write that down for the 4 of you that were in Session #6 - 2 weeks ago.

For Session #7 - This is the loot. We can't sell it yet, but I'm just posting here to have a record. Please let me know if you want anything. We'll split the gold later.

----- Loot up for grabs or to sell -----
6x Masterwork studded leather
4x Daggers
4x Shortsword
4x Thieves tools
2x Chain shirts
2x Masterwork great axe
2x short spear
3x Masterwork composite longbows (20 arrows each)
3x Rapiers
2x Oil of magic weapon
3x sleep arrow
1x UNKNOWN: Armband - transmutation magic

427 gold

----- Group Loot -----
5x Potion of cure light wounds (Saria carrying this for the group)
2x Potion of disguise self (Saria carrying this for the group)
2x Potion of divine favor (Saria carrying this for the group)
2x Potion of feather fall (Saria carrying this for the group)
3x Potion of cure moderate wounds (Saria carrying this for group)

----- Loot that was claimed -----
1x Potion of cure light wounds (Axfow/Aurelius)
1x Masterwork studded leather (Calathes)
1x Masterwork Composite Longbows (Aurelius/Axfow)
1x Oil of magic weapon (Cal)
1x cloak of resistance +1 (Aurelius/Axfow)


So it turns out that we will be here this week but not next week. Hopefully that's still alright - let us know if it's not.


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Piccolo wrote:

You put out a flawed product, so flawed that I had to go in and patch it. That Trust system needed extensive playtesting.

I am not going to pay $5 each for 2 patches. If it comes down to it, I can save money by simply doing it on my own. But then, that's not why I bought the adventure, is it? I bought it so I don't have to write my own adventures, as did everyone else who bought Harrowstone.

I am literally just starting out with the adventure, and sadly I can point to numerous holes in the game mechanics and structure. If this is indicative of the rest of the modules, I will not be buying Pathfinder adventures any more.

I think it's really lovely and wonderful that the authors of APs (and other things), like Neil here, come to the forums and spend time outside of their lives to answer our questions and be involved in our community. They frequently do it on all the forums where they too have answered my questions as well.

I think it would be a real shame, if their involvement in the community is lessened by people like you. You are entitled to your opinion - and if you want to say you don't like Carrion Crown, please by all means review it. But you were pointing fingers at Neil (in the wrong direction no less) and calling it a flawed product as if it has something fundamentally wrong to it and shouldn't be sold. First of all, no matter how much you playtest a Video game, it will always have bugs. The same can be said for an RP product. But that's why it's great to see the author's here trying to help us out afterwards. Secondly, any GM worth her salt knows that reading an AP and adding flair is putting the icing on an already very generous and delicious cake. There's always ways to improve a product and make it better or your own. Actually - I, for one, did not change the trust system at all and my player felt the tension and the stress of the entire INSULAR town crowding in on him which made for a very intense, very amazing roleplay which was quite successful.

A few more things to note:
- James Jacobs, the creative director of paizo, also posts on these forums frequently - and he addressed the issue with the trust system which would take a quick search by you. He said it was simply 1 sentence which was left out which allowed for some bonus ways to earn trust. He too is a vocal voice in the community helping us.

- A few kind people have created entire "packets" for the trust system alone if you wanted to add extra sidequests that are easy as reading a few pages just as if they were in an AP. These people are also not paid but like to help the community.

- All the people on this thread took their time out to respond to you and try to help you and I saw nothing but condescension and disregard. You didn't even apologize to Neil when you realized he was not even involved in "The Haunting of Harrowstone" when he has nothing to do with that and was trying to help you out.

All I ask is that you come here, feel free to complain, whine or vent, you have free speech and all. But have a little respect. Don't ruin this place for the others. I for one am so beyond grateful for the APs because without them, I wouldn't have time to run the amazing campaigns I have run. And I am grateful to the authors who take their time out to answer our questions and be part of this community.


Neil Spicer wrote:
Unfortunately, that's another casualty/change from my original turnover. In the original manuscript, I didn't include any ghouls created by the nabasu yet. That encounter just had the three demons in the rafters for the PCs to encounter. Basically, Radvir was intending to encourage the use of their death-stealing gaze to create more chaos in Caliphas on the Whispering Way's behalf, transforming its citizens into ghouls...which would ultimately create a new cadre of undead for the Whispering Tyrant upon his return. The nabasu hadn't yet been given leave to begin this activity yet. Radvir was waiting to complete his manipulation of Luvick's vampires before setting them loose.

Thanks, Neil! I appreciate the background. :) I ended up running him with the growth points just for the added challenge. It worked out well!


Thanks again, Brandon, as always! I completely agree - I think a Toss or Throw maneuver would be fantastic. I've seen some interesting houserules on it (ie. only 1 size smaller, different lengths of how far you can toss depending on how big your CM roll is past their CMD and then multiplied by how large the creature is)... We need to make it happen!!

And yeah - my campaign has been a blast! Running an AP for a solo character is so fun - it's very immersive and for Carrion Crown and all it's creepiness, it's like my player is battling against the world. All he has is his Eidolons, and I let Kendra come along as a cohort (getting revenge for Professor Lorrimor). He's on the same XP track except started 1 level higher. So he doesn't get much extra. And yet somehow, not a single death! He pulls tricks like this on me though...!

I CANNOT wait until he meets Adivion on the battlefield - I'm intending to use your tips from the thread with the different stages of battle and the "friendly" haunt at the end will be Professor Lorrimor reaching out to help Kendra and the PC get his final revenge...

I'm running Rappan Athuk next and I'm half tempted to have the Whispering Tyrant banish my Players lvl 1 "soul" to Rappan Athuk and get stuck in a time bubble - ala "Ground Hog day" (everytime he dies, he comes back as lvl 1 and has to try again) - until he reaches the deepest level where instead of Orcus it's actually the Whispering Tyrant himself.... But this is me just daydreaming at the moment!


Thanks, Zhangar :) I did the same thing in the end - but wanted to know if I got it right!


Thanks so much, Zhangar and Brandon! You both answered so quickly and I appreciate all the detail!

Brandon - I love the wandering free roaming vapor version - that's delicious! I might give go with that one instead. Thanks for the input - and obviously, just like lots of people have said, thank you for this brilliant AP (and many others!) We're having a lot of fun so far. :)

Since both of you are being so kind to answer my questions, I have only two more:

1) The Banshee at the Rusted Tower - she has sunlight powerlessness - did you just rule that the Storm was so strong, it isn't sunny? That's what I went with but I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss something!

(Also, as an aside - my player (he's playing solo believe it or not, and I'm not pulling any punches - Broodmaster summoners are busted) - decided to try to convince her he was a worshipper of Urgathoa here to join the Cult. She believed him (good diplomacy) and she opened the gate, and they attacked! Fun times.)

2) The Athach details mention that he tries to "toss" players onto the door's blade trap. What's the mechanic for that, if any? I ended up just using his grapple to then "move" her onto the trap. But Toss sounded so much more fun - I like the idea that he picks the players up and just throws them to the door much better than just shuffling them over there in a grapple - is there a mechanic I missed?

Thanks again!!


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Orphelyne wrote:

In Ashes, page 38 - there are 3 nabasu demons in the warehouse. It also says there are 8 ghouls killed by the nabasu demon gaze in that warehouse.

For the stat blocks, it points to the bestiary - where you'd normally then run the nabasu demon according to the AC, HP, etc. based on the bestiary. But - if the demons killed these 8 ghouls, then they should have 8 growth points split between them and this isn't mentioned at all. This also gives them 8 gaze attacks between them a day as well as more hit points, more ac and etc..

Usually if the base stat block of a creature from the bestiary has extra added onto it (ie. growth points and stats) - so should I be running them with growth points or without growth points?

Thanks for any help/advice!!

I'm just bumping this question just once in case anyone knows the answer!


Thanks so much for the response! Regarding 4) - it's on page 20 - It says that a wish can duplicate a spell, and "such effects include, but are not limited to the following: A targeted dispel magic spell to dismiss any protection from evil or other barriers blocking the haunt's attempts to affect intruders."

Then in the sidebar it says "In some encounter areas the haunt's specific effects are outlined, but the present mechanic gives you the fredom to create other creepy effects to keep PCs on the edge of their seats." So by the sounds, I could have a Tyrant's whisper haunt manifest in a room without a specific effect listed and have it do the dispel magic (in paragraph 1 above) - but then, is that yet another 63 hp haunt they have to deal with? And does that dispel magic happen every round again per the whole "persists" mechanic?

Thanks again for your help:)


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I have a few questions on the Tyrant's Whispers if anyone can help. I'm mostly confused as to whether or not they manifest as a singular haunt, or separate haunts at each location mentioned in the book. Thanks to anyone who can help me and sorry if this is confusing:

1) The radius of the Tyrant's Whispers is 70 feet - The cathedral is 300~ feet long. Does that mean that the radius mentioned in the stat block is actually for each of the haunt "manifestations" and so each one is separate? (ie. a and b are different haunts but both are tyrant's whispers).

2) If 2 means they are separate, does that mean each time the haunt manifests, it has 63 hp as per the stat block? Or is the 63 hp for the haunt in it's entirety across the whole cathedral?

3) The specific whisper blocks for the Cathedral mention that the spell effect will happen "for as long as the haunt persists". How long is that?

a) The "dominate person" effect at E8 mentions it will dominate a new person each round for as long as the haunt persists - how long does it persist? Until the hitpoints are 0? And if it fails dominating a person, will it try them again if they are the last person left? Does the haunt ever just stop?

b) "enemy hammer" effect in the entrance - it mentions it will keep trying to use the target until they either leave the narthex or push past and into the next area. Is the haunt able to do this continually past even the spell duration? Or does it stop at the end of the spell duration?

4) Last but not least, the book mentions that a GM can use the whispers - so if I were to say it manifests to cast a dispel magic on one PC, per one of the options - does that create a whole new haunt at this location? Does that mean a new radius, a new 63 hp, and a new 1 minute reset for it?


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In Ashes, page 38 - there are 3 nabasu demons in the warehouse. It also says there are 8 ghouls killed by the nabasu demon gaze in that warehouse.

For the stat blocks, it points to the bestiary - where you'd normally then run the nabasu demon according to the AC, HP, etc. based on the bestiary. But - if the demons killed these 8 ghouls, then they should have 8 growth points split between them and this isn't mentioned at all. This also gives them 8 gaze attacks between them a day as well as more hit points, more ac and etc..

Usually if the base stat block of a creature from the bestiary has extra added onto it (ie. growth points and stats) - so should I be running them with growth points or without growth points?

Thanks for any help/advice!!


Okay everyone! - deduct the gold and I'll add a cure light wounds to my inventory.


Okay, so we'll go with a wand of cure light wounds. Is everyone good chipping in 75g for it and I'll wave it around when people are in need?

Also, I'll still be taking "Infernal Healing" on my spellbook. Just a heads up if you are good aligned and decide that this spell should not be cast on you. And just a quick piece of thought on this from me:

I've played with many different styles - There isn't a black or white rule that says that you cannot use the spell in Pathfinder. It really is up to the players to decide their own motivations and thoughts behind it. For example, in Carrion Crown which I'm running at the moment, one of the modules requires you to work with Vampires which are inherently evil. But per the Intro section, Wes talks about how evil isn't just black and white, it's a scale and you have to decide where you fit on it. A good character could decide that for the greater good, working with the Vampires makes sense. Or an Evil character might be "evil" aligned simply because he cares more about himself than others but isn't the typical kind of evil.

Similarly, with infernal healing - it uses demons blood which could be collected from demons killed over the course of adventuring; and can be used for the greater good of keeping the party healed. If a Neutral character (me) who casts Infernal healing approaches you and says, "Hey, so I know you might be iffy about this spell, but I'd like to cast it on you and there's no ill effects and in fact it will help us achieve our end goals" - then it's up to your character to decide yea or nay. Whether or not a good character would choose to cast it, that again is up to you. I happen to be Neutral (and I've played with people who play good characters that have chosen to use that spell as well).

Anyway, that's just my thoughts - it's up to you to decide!


I love Five Falcons, great choice! That's a vote from me.

Regarding cure light wounds - do we all want to pitch in 75g so that we can buy one this time around? (It's a total of 375g.)


Quick question for Stephen: Can I take Infernal Healing as a 1st lvl spell? (Inner Sea World Guide)

Let me know!


Voomer wrote:
By the way, thanks so much for sharing your (hilarious) experience. It helps a lot to see and prepare for the unexpected twists in the AP.

Of course!! Happy to help. :) I was a longtime lurker on here but have recently started posting. If I can ever help in any way, let me know! We are about to start Ashes at Dawn. :)

Let me know how WotW goes!


Steve: I can't make it until 8pm EST on Wed. Jaunt can make it whenever but I'll be running a touch late and wanted to let you know.

I hope you're feeling much better!!


It's in the Apothecary in Feldgrau.

Book page: 56
Area F11

Also, now my solo adventurer wants to know how many of these all the cities carry... I'm thinking there's been a sudden shortage of this stuff due to heavy demand from OTHER adventurers :P

Dust of sneezing and choking just seems way too powerful!


Yeah, it was great :) We've had some very clever moments in this campaign!


Just for background: My player is a solo adventurer with Kendra as a sidekick. He's a Summoner with Eidolons, with a 15 point buy and uses absolutely everything at his disposal to get through the AP where I am not at all kind to him!

And here is what happens....

Spoiler:

In Feldgrau, he finds the "dust of sneezing and choking" and pulls a lucky spellcraft roll to identify it.

Having realized Vrood was going to be a pretty serious BBEG, he dimension doors in with his Eidolon in tow ready to die for her cause. She gets her init before Vrood and in fact is the first to move. She sprinkles the dust in the air and one bad Fort save later, Vrood is dead and his jaw is disintegrating with his deathgag just as mine also hits the floor.

Just to make matters even more hilarious, had he passed his save he would have been stunned for about 11 rounds anyway and well out of the fight.

So instead of circle of death wiping out my player like I'd hoped, or eyebite giving them a run for their money, Vrood got 6 seconds of blazing glory where he says "Prepare to die!" and then promptly dies instead.


Great job - hilarious! Thanks for writing/posting this!


I have a quick question:

If I have the human racial feat "Racial Heritage" - can I take Racial class archetypes as if I'm a member of that race?

It says I count as the race for "any effects" but it doesn't expressly call out archetypes - so I'm just looking for a ruling!

Thanks :)


Hey everyone :)

I'm thinking of playing a Witch with healing. I've had this character to play on the backburner for a while!