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clff rice wrote:

How is it a heaven oracle does damage with color spray?

they wouldnt deal damage, and i know the op was talking about making an evoker, but it would add an insane ammount of control due to color spray functoning effectively until 12th level or so. then all of the sorcerer illusion (glamer) spells at its disposal in later levels.

@aunt tony

while you are entitled to your opinion that doesnt mean its correct. mystic thurges are kings of buffing and control. they lose out on quite a bit, but they gain a multiple role position. that he could be a very effective healer/buffer/debuffer/conjurer and play a pure support role. ive played a MT in a home game with a very evil GM. he took pride in killing players, and mine never died once. i had too many tricks to overcome every thing the gm threw at him. i was able to keep people fighting, and was the most "powerful" character in the group, he was a linch pin of the group.

if you play this smart, dont focus on damage, and play a support role this character will perform very well. it will suck if you try to lob nothing but fireballs.


i not one to think that having a spell pool deep as the ocean is a bad thing. you may not get higher level spells as fast as a wizard, but having selective fireballs every round is worth it for me. then as you get higher in levels with spell perfection and interchangeable unprepared slots, you will be a wrecking ball of sport and control.

my suggestions would be use your oracle slots for buffing, and your sorcerer slots for controling things. im of the opinion that damage spells have there use, but god spells make or break encounters.

i would suggest mithril brest plate and arcane armor training, and skip out on quicken spell until deep in your build.

Aelryinth wrote:

He's just going to feel like a fifth wheel from levels 5-8, when everyone else is levelling and he's just got his level 1 and 2 spells to throw around at half the caster level. And then he's going to feel like a sixth wheel being stuck way behind in both new spells and caster level.

Unless the rest of the party is similarly underpowered, this is going to be a struggle. If he could start at 10+ with guild training and get through the sheer hell that is going to be the midlevels, might do all right.

==Aelryinth

mmm... it would depend on his build.

what i mean is if he chose to go sorcerer before oricle, then he would have access to pit spells, as well as blindness deffness. so 5-8 should be very managible assuming he chooses the correct spell list for his character.

if he chooses to play a hevens oracle and goes oracle to 5 then sorcerer to 10 then he would also be a wrecking ball due to spamming a first level spell (color spray) and owning everything it touches. i mean color spray alone will let him stay functional until level 12 assuming he stacks the snot out of his CHA.

if i were making this character i would have a sorcerer with the undead bloodline, and heavens oracle for impressive synergy and making my spell list have fewer flaws, i would take the blackened curse for aoe spells on my oricle list for free, and focus on illusion, necromancy, and enchantment spells and save dc's.


Jup the dwarven Grappler

level 1 tetori monk
hp 11
ac 17
touch 13
flat footed 14
CMB= 3
CMD= 16

stats:

strength 16
dextarity 16
constitution 15
intelligence 8
wisdom 15
charisma 5

feats:

improved grapple, snapping turtle style, stunning fist,improved unarmed strike,traits= glory of old, and armor expert

saves:

fortitude 2+2+3(SP,SLA,POI)=5/8
reflex 3+2+3(SP,SLA,POI)=6/9
will 2+2+3(SP,SLA,POI)=5/8

attack modifiers&damage:

grapple = 1+2+3=6 damage 1d6+3 P
unarmed strike = 0+3=3 damage 1d6+3 B
armor spikes = 0+3=3 damage 1d6+3 P
dagger = 0+3=3 damage 1d4+3 P/S

equipment:

studded leather armor (spiked) +3 ac, 1 ACP, light
pathfinders kit
daggers x3+(1 from pathfinder kit)
sling + shot(5)

skills:

acrobatics 3+1+3 = 7
perception 2+1+3 = 6
sense motive 2+1+3 = 6

this character is a brash, agressive, anti social powerhouse who goes after the most powerful looking enemies before any others. he drinks, smokes, and brawls at every opportunity. a LN alignment who will never betray a friend but is merciless to enemies. he'll get in your face cussing and screaming without hesitation, and lets you know when you did something wrong, in a blunt manner.


thank you for that link. it helped alot


im interested in trying to play online. but what are the rules, is there a link someone has for this?


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wow its like talking to a brick wall...

ok i will live in your world where ever npc has an insane ac, never moves into a flanking position,dice are perfect, and all damage results in averages. by those qualifications YOU WIN DA ARGUMENT!!! gratz to yaz!

now in real life, im blending mooks in 1-2 hits, im hitting often enough to be satasfied with my increase in minimum damage, and dont care about average damage or its equations because i know, pay attention now!,dice ARE NOT RANDOM. they favor particular numbers, either by a wide margin, or a small. ever wonder why your gm crits so much when he pulls out his "special" dice? its because they are lopsided, you need to take that into account with your math... wait you cant account for that variable when computing the numbers? i already knew that.

now this varible will skew any paper math. so before you open your mouth telling me im "worse off", just dont. like i said i use this class feature and i was very happy with never rolling lower then a 3 on my unlucky, lopsided, d6 dice.

would i take this at low levels, no

would i take this as a solid rogue, no

peace out, im now irritated and dont want to take part in a discussion insults me using flawed math.


Yosarian wrote:
Orc Boyz wrote:
Roberta Yang wrote:
ryric wrote:
Over any adventuring career, the rogue with the sneak attack talents will lose more damage due to the hit penalty than they will gain due to the better sneak attack rolls.
But if you happen to hit with every single attack and then you happen to roll 1's on every single sneak attack die, then those talents make you turn a profit! So provided you're using d20's loaded toward you and d6's loaded against you, they're useful.

ive used it on my rogue before, and i liked it. play smart and build you character competantly and it will be a boon.

this board thinks in terms of averages, i think in terms of worst case cenario, and i can tell you i have had games where i wouldnt see anything higher then a 3 on my d6.

But worst case scenerio isn't that you role a bunch of 1's; worst case scenerio is that you get into position, set up for the sneak attack, and then completely miss and accomplish nothing. Rouge isn't a full BAB class, so this happens too much anyway. With this it's even worse.

and here is where i say again " play smart and build you character competently and it will be a boon." my character went 3 levels of weapon master (wakazashi),1 level of urban barbarian, gloves of dueling, and was completely capable of hitting a flanked target 80% of the time.

yes i lowered by SA by 2d6, but i increased my damage by +5 and my to hit by +7 so the gain was worth the loss.

i will say it one more time, because i know people are going to say things like you can only do it by minmaxing (stupid term), or by not playing a solid rogue.

"play smart and build you character competently and it will be a boon."


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Roberta Yang wrote:
ryric wrote:
Over any adventuring career, the rogue with the sneak attack talents will lose more damage due to the hit penalty than they will gain due to the better sneak attack rolls.
But if you happen to hit with every single attack and then you happen to roll 1's on every single sneak attack die, then those talents make you turn a profit! So provided you're using d20's loaded toward you and d6's loaded against you, they're useful.

ive used it on my rogue before, and i liked it. play smart and build you character competently and it will be a boon.

this board thinks in terms of averages, i think in terms of worst case cenario, and i can tell you i have had games where i wouldnt see anything higher then a 3 on my d6.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Orc Boyz wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Traveler's Any-Tool.

My god this thing is awesome. It's so small, light (2 lb.), and inexpensive (250gp), but completely invaluable for the tech gnome on the go.

It's an artisan's tool, an instrument, a shovel, block and tackle, a portable ram, a hammer, thief's tool, scissors, or most any other simple machine or tool you can imagine!

so that engineering tool from world of warcraft. good job paizo rip them off for once!!

[sarcasm]

And that bears no resemblance whatsoever to a Swiss army knife.
[/sarcasm]

if you have aportible ram or fully functioning hammer tell me where you got that swiss army knife. and i would argue its closer to a letherman.


Orthos wrote:
It really wouldn't matter if they did to me heh, I would houserule it back to how I run it anyway ;)

as the gm i would rather do it for them, that way i can avoid the crying after they spent 1-2 hours building a toon just to have me say no. if i do it, i know it will be allowed and they can talk to me if they find it not to be what they wanted.


im reading strikeback as " hold your action to make a melee attack against the target, even if you cant reach them" a free grapple (if you're playing a MM monk), trip, or disarm if you are playing a fighter. i can see it having a use, unlike other feats that have been listed in this thread.

a monster with a 20 foot reach gets tripped by the unarmed fighter lol, wierd, but it would work.


Ravingdork wrote:

Traveler's Any-Tool.

My god this thing is awesome. It's so small, light (2 lb.), and inexpensive (250gp), but completely invaluable for the tech gnome on the go.

It's an artisan's tool, an instrument, a shovel, block and tackle, a portable ram, a hammer, thief's tool, scissors, or most any other simple machine or tool you can imagine!

so that engineering tool from world of warcraft. good job paizo rip them off for once!!


Maerimydra wrote:
Orc Boyz, which part of "I can trip three people in three widely different locales within 160 feet of my position" you don't understand? None of the spells you proposed above can do that. I'm not saying that Toppling Magic Missile are uber-cool, but it seems they can be useful in specific situations.

what part of "spending unnecessary resources for a bad trick" do you not understand? with that beings said, in which module in PFs would you even have the chance to TRY and trip 3 people 160 feet away from eachother? every module ive played has been confined to a 60x60 foot room or smaller, or on a ship which is played on a 60x60 foot map.

i understand the concept of 3 trip attempts for a 1st level spell, but now you're waisting feats on the meta magic, the trait, and other feats just to make your magic missle valuable, when like i said before " they have better options" so im in complete agreement with ravingdork when he says "And I can confirm that, anywhere else, it's absolute garbage."


but now my question is, you spent a feat for toppling magic missle, and you said it occupies your 2 and 3rd level slots. why not cast Create Pit,Web,Hideous Laughter, spiked pit, and a few other spells? i mean persistant spell would be a better choice then toppeling spell.

im just trying to see how this feat is worth taking, as im looking at it they have much much better choices for similar effects.


AdAstraGames wrote:

My PFS Starsoul sorcerer has gotten great mileage out of Toppling Spell.

He has Magical Lineage, a 23 CHA at 6th, is saving up for the next headband soon and at 8th will have a 26 CHA. At 5th, I took Dazing Spell, and my two "third level slots" are Dazing Magic Missile and Fireball.

Because I didn't know that Spell Specialization worked with Toppling Spell's CMB, I didn't build him to have a high enough INT to get Spell Specialization. I think that's the only trick I missed. He's running around with a +11 CMB, +12 if he uses a scroll of Eagle's Spendor.

PFS has a fair number of encounters with bipeds in every scenario. You don't get to Huge or Huge Quadruped opponents until 10th level...at which point he'll be rolling Dazing Flaming Sphere around the battlefield.

I don't succeed all the time, but I succeed more often than I fail. Because I also took Spontaneous Metafocus at 3rd level, it's the same as casting a normal Magic Missile, and I take the attitude that it's always worth it to throw it that way because, hey, I might roll a 20 on the CMB check.

I also maneuver one of the fighters around on Floating Disk so that my move action can be used to put them in position, give them higher ground and let them do a full attack...ideally against a Dazed or Prone opponent.

We pretty much shut down a scenario when he threw Dazing Magic Missile at the big boss that was going to run away - and the boss blew the Will Save.

At 7th, I'm taking Heighten Spell and Quicken Spell (bloodline) so that at 8th I can just fling quickened magic missiles and double my damage output, or heighten my Fireball or Dazing Magic Missile as needed.

so let me get this straight... instead of just getting grease and targeting reflex for the prone condition, hindering terrain for charge prevention and a ranged disarm that would be better all around then a trip you spend a ton of resources to make a magic missle trip someone?

it seems silly to me. a +12 cmb isnt at all better then a dc 17-18 reflex save or prone/disarmed, when you need to take meta magic feats, use scrolls, and waste higher level slots for a trip effect.


Ravingdork wrote:


I used to take the same stance as well, then the developers stated quite clearly that it was their intent all along for the PLAYER to create the NPC, since it was THEIR FEAT.

Blew my mind.

really? wizards had the complete 180 of that opinion, i guess it banned without question from now on.


Elamdri wrote:

Well it's like:

"Well for the price of ONE feat, I get ALL the crafting feats and I can craft items without having to take time out of my gallivanting across the countryside...YES PLEASE!"

as a gm i just want to point out, you dont get to build your cohort. leadership states that you gain an npc, and unlike class features like edilons or animal companions, you dont get a premade stat block to choose how your cohort is built. your gm was very nice to let you have exactly what you wanted in a cohort, but not all gms will.

i actually make my pc's hold "auditions" and interviews for there cohorts, and i dont give away what class they are beforehand. then they need to pick one they think will be the best for there group, well back when i let the feat be played.


im to tired to list all of the particulars, but using this feat Measured Response (Combat) (god damn i love that feat) a magus who sets up his strike would deal 15d6 max (x2)+(leadblades + enlarge person(great sword)=42) +3d6 (fire,electric,acid)+ all the static damage that would be assoiated with melee hits

you would be looking over 300 points of damage on a single strike. if you could work in one more point of bab you would qualify for greatervital strike adding 28 more damage, im going to have to build it and post it later.


speakin of 3.5 gobo horde reminded me of one of my favorite characters from 3.5

it was a combat brute with a large sword breaker, weapon master for exotic sunder, and cleaving sunder. man that guy could dish out some massive damage. once he hit frenzied berzerker with shock trooper he was unkillable and could break anything he hit in one strike.

gobo i may steal that character for pathfinder.


wraithstrike wrote:
RebBrown wrote:
Improved Initiative. Acting first can make or break an encounter.
I have to agree. It is almost never a bad choice no matter what you are playing.

the issue with wasting a feat on improved inititive is when that +0 inititive paladin goes first because his dice are scewed making him roll better more often(not saying hes cheating). ive seen this with my own eyes, an inquisitor with wisdom, dex, trait bonus, and imroved inititive... and the pally rolls 3 20's for his inititives through out the day.

if it guranteed you one of the top 3 slots somehow, then i would agree improved inititive would be an amazing feat. right now, its a feat if you have extra feats you havent filled.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

I've thought a fair bit about the monk, and what I think they need are debilitating attacks. Wrist locks, breaks, nerve strikes, these should be turned into ability score damage, as an extension from stunning fist. Make them debilitators, entirely step away from the "they need to do more damage" debate. Make them better, make them cooler, make their martial arts mean something, but not mean the same thing as two weapon fighting with swords or adopt greatsword damage.

Keep the defensive focus, make them attack ability scores, able to move the save around from fort to reflex (are you quick enough, or does the monk hit you in the right spot and drain an ability score) as they need for opponents. Of course, these debilitating strikes would only need to hit touch (but perhaps have shield ac also help, c'mon shield, save my ar**).

Allow them to attack any of the three physical abilities by default at a certain low level, but through feats, they can attack int, wis or cha.

Tie this to a change in weapon proficiencies with more polearms, that adds in more like the Japanese halberd: the naginata, and longspear from the Korean, Japanese and Chinese martial art traditions.

Cheers.

if you want to play that character play a ninja, they do everything you just suggested. not to say monks cant do it also, but monks dont need to increase damage so the idea of making do non hp damage strikes is besides the point. monks need bonuses to hit and there "awesome" supernatural abilities to actually work and work together.

this has been pointd out, over and over and over over ten pages of posts, and yet people still dont get what the entire issue is about.

MONK PLAYERS DONT WANT DAMAGE!!


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its still worth the investment if for no other reason then stacking CE and fighting defensively to make up for a low ac. then add a +2 to attack and damage at 12 level as a swift action with a high rate of success.


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drill.

nothing beats drilling a hole in the ground, dropping a piton and barricading the door for a good nights rest, while in a dungeon filled with undead.

bear traps are also very powerful when used in combination with a drill. its a mundane root that works great for ambushes.

mithril waffle iron! it makes waffles in the shape of your god! whats not awesome about that.


tenacious survivor!! best feat ever printed, play a quiggong monk/unbreakable fighter and get restoration for 2 ki points.

die, get healed, burn 2 ki points to remove the negative level, get back into the fight, repeat!

*edit* leadership is too much of a headach. the gm is required to run and build the npc by raw. it slows the game down and make the party size double.

what i do with leadership is very similar to someone above, if you want to get followers, use diplomacy and make people like you enough to join your cause. but taking a feat and getting a warrior to be your meat shield, no way in hell.


this new term "grip shifting" is not on the list of actons. its not a free action, its a non action. i had this debate with my gm over a magus. i actually had to open the book to the list of actions to prove wielding a weapon isnt a listed action.


LazarX wrote:
Samurai were strong, power attacking fighters, not dainty dexterity dancers.

this is not true. the samurai were more likely to sever your femoral artery then cleave you in half. and anyone who knows about sword fighting, or anatomy, knows your inner thigh only needs a 1/2 to 1 inch cut to kill you.


you can make a cloth wearing samurai, by dipping monk. take wisdom con and strength as you highest stats, then get bracers of armor. in my opinion samurai should gain improved unarmed strike and unarmed damage increases because samurai were trained in kenpo jujitsu but thats a different discussion...


Darth Grall wrote:

Still rubs me the wrong way thematically, but whatever. It's probably cause I never heard/played with the "Decide how your weapons look" thing.

its one of the best things in 3.5. they didnt say "YOU MUST HAVE A GREAT SWORD LOOK LIKE A GREAT SWORD!!!" they gave the players the abiliy to have an item look how they wanted, as long as it didnt go against the mechanics of the weapon(slight of hand a great sword).


oh no its turning into one of those threads again, cool the tempers, no more bolds, caps, or angry statements. double check your posts so you dont mispost in a way that will make people think you're insulting them.

with that being said, i doubt that any gm will say " you cant use your flurry with a bow" so just talk to your gm, and if he says " i dont care" then do it anyway.


Darth Grall wrote:
Why? Not the twf part, I can see why you might do that on account of the bonus damage a hit(I'd forgotten about that), but the Samurai gets the proficency for Katana thus can wield it one handed. So why sacrifice the larger damage die for a 2nd Wakazashi? Plus wielding a Katana and Wakazashi totally fits more in with a the style of combat the OP wants to do.

when i played 3.5 the players guide said " you get to decide how your weapons look" taking the stats from a katana and wakazashi there is a 2 point different between the 2 weapons. so why not just lose that 2 points for the sake of only needing weapon focus, specailization, and greater versions for only one weapon. that makes him much more compentent. then he can tack on paranah strike or say screw strength completely and focus dex as his main stat, which makes him even better at hitting and dealing damage. by making dex his main stats he also gains the ability to use a long bow and be functional at it.

its always been my opinion, that 2x light weapons are better then 1 hander and light weapon.


Charlie Bell wrote:
Go MoMS. Crane Riposte + Snake Style + sorc defensive buffs can make you virtually unhittable.

the problem im seeing, he wont hit either...

im confused, is this a home game using PFS rules or a pfs character? its a very weird character, and i dont think you'll have as much fun as you hope you will.


if you want to twf, use wakazashi and just call them katanas. then take TWF, ITWF, duble slice, 2 weapon rend. a 2 weapon fighting samurai is better then a 2 handed, because of challange. you run to the big bad guy and open up a can of woop ass on him.


isnt the best TWF item in the game 2x wakazashi? singular feat progression, high crit range, cool looking...


last i heard, you cant play one but they are going to make the zen archer work as intended. so just play your zen archer, and in about 4-6 weeks you will be able to open up on people.most gms wont kick you in the nuts, so you most likely wont be told you cant play it.


digeridork & Odraude

those are both very good points...

perhaps i will let their group alignment shift closer to good, then smash some stuff, and warn the PCs to correct their mistake or they comback and kill them all while they sleep.


not that its really relivent, but...

so in my custom world adventuring parties are very common. they usually compete for work when they are in the same area. well my player group decided to spread slander and lible about an NPC party using this abilityCharlatan
asked the player "what exactly do you say", well lets just say i cant post most of it. then i say "are you sure, you dont even know these people. i mean these guys could be level 20"

the entire party said "its not like they can do anything about it"

well,they have a bloodhound tracker in there group and we left off where the party was about the get ambushed by the NPCs.

early in the campaign i told them that there reputation will be a major factor in how you get work. if you have a bad reputation you may lose jobs and many people may stop associating with you. so the NPC party is in the mindset that they need to remove the problem so they can continue making money, a mentality many people have.

Nicos wrote:
I do not see any problem with your propposed encounter. But for better opion i would like to konw more a bout the party composition, the Npcs and the encounter. Would the Npc havetactical advantage? woudl the Npc surprise the pary? etc etc

an ambush setting, a fighter phalanx fighter, with silence cast on him, a track focused rogue with invisibiliy, a magus (ouch i know) and a half-elf cleric negative energy smiter with a great sword (pharasmia).


ok so im getting pissed at the lack of tactics i see at my table. no team work, no communication. the fighter blocks the archer, the rogue refuses to flank, and the caster only uses AOE.

i understand that people should be able to RP as they want, and that fun is more important then anything else.

so here is my question, would throwing four level five pc class npc's against a disorgnized group of five level seven players be to rough? the characters im throwing at them are custom created, and very, very powerful. they will use military tactics and isolate weak links. they will be focusing on a singular target and focusing there resources at that target. also i do not metagame, these npcs will not magically know which characters suck and which ones can hold there own.

this is not a "the GM is mad, so the players pay" momment, its more of a "the GM tried to tell you guys not to piss that party of adventurers off, but you did it anyway" momment.

im expecting it to be a very brutal encounter, which my players know i dont pull punches, that i dont expect all of them to survive.

before anyone says "that is a bad thing for a gm to do", dont!!! they knew what they were getting into when they acted like A-holes to people who were minding there own busniess.


sweet, thank you for the help. i was afraid i posted the questions in a incoherent way lol.


ok so i have an animal companion that is a raptor. so i have a few questions about pathfinder and AC's

first it has at level 1, 2 talon attacks and one bite. in pathfinder does the adition of attacks past the first type, cause all other attacks count as secondary? so the talons would be primary and the bite would be secondary?

also if using a standard action like an attack action or charge would i get both listed talon attacks or just one talon attack?

also if i have all primary attacks and extra attacks dont convert to secondary in PF, then would i need multiattack for my full round action?


IF your gm allows that, mine doesn't.technically item creation is supposed to be a gm only table, but in pathfinder they put it in the CRB to make things easier.


my issue with gloves of storing , is that they become useless when you hit level 5 and get gloves of dueling assuming you're playing a fighter.


in 3.5 it was bludgeoning, you would hit someone with the flat of your blade, or what ever you were using. in pathfinder.. i dont know.


yes you can, and im worshiping zon kuthon


i was going to use a mite, using quite a few resources to get SNA 1. but my friend told me in PFS they allw alternate summoning from AP's so that means a bloody skeleton will be my new mine sweeper.


just for people who dont get the english language these are the Synonyms: killer, murderer, hired gun, slayer, cutthroat, dispatcher, hit man
which one of those says " im a good person who kills bad people with proper justification!"?

you may choose to play someone who kills someone for the "right reasons" but good as defined in the CRB:"Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others"

evil:Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

if you cant see why assassins are evil and ONLY evil... then you is a crazy person!!


Pallius Crispin wrote:
Might try a wand of mount for such an occasion? (I think its 2 hours per lvl!) More hp, send that pony a walking!

i was thinking that, but i was playing a cleric. sitting there for 20 rounds failing my umd checks would annoy me lol. also i think mount requires a handle animal check if underground.


i figured out a work around to the handle animal, i just put a point into linguistics and grabbed undercommon as a second language. now i can summon a mite and tell him exactly what i want him to do.

lazarx, i purchased a wand just for springing traps and provoking npcs from a safe distance. so i only need 6 seconds and a full run action to go 80 feet.


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the 3.5 prestige classes were not ment for players, Wizards cautioned against letting players use the PrC choices from the dmg for players.

the gm needs things to throw at you, or else you would only have the bestiary for sources of NPC's. just because the game has litches in it, doesn't mean you should get to play one.


thank you!


because you are required to kill someone for no reason other then to join "the guild". doing that automatically makes you evil.

*and the reason why its in the core rules, is because instead of making you buy 3 books to begin playing, they mixed the players handbook and DMG from 3.5 with there updated rules.

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