Ninjaiguana's page

There are no questionable stacking boosts to strength.

Touch of Rage is a morale bonus to attack and damage rolls. Rage is a morale bonus to strength. It's no different than having an enhancement bonus to strength and an enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls. Would you suggest that a strength belt doesn't stack with a magic weapon?

Yes, the DM admitted to missing a couple of attacks and apparently his damage was off by 2 per hit. We were a poorly balanced group, using poor tactics, playing up. Things should have been challenging which they were. I'm waiting for a good example of season four being 'too hard' or hard in general.

Can someone verify the attack splitting thing? I'd like to address the claim that the DM was softballing by splitting up his attacks.

Confirmed on the attack splitting - the relevant tactics section reads '[the creature] wades fearlessly into the largest mass of enemies it can reach, using its size and many attacks to deal damage to as many creatures as possible each round.'

Ninjaiguana wrote:

Also each GM has to email Dave or Rob to get access to the sheet

I didn't need to email to sign up to GM, I guess because I paid for Sat & Sun GMing 1 game. Unless you're referring to something else?

Huh, I thought somewhere it asked GMs to e-mail the organisers, but maybe I'm just making that up. Entirely possible. Ignore me!

I really want to have the last boss of this be Krune returned (though obviously weakened to a Tier-appropriate challenge). C'mon, Paizo! Let us take down a Runelord!

I imagine the number of warhorn tables will increase as the number of people signed up increases. Also each GM has to email Dave or Rob to get access to the sheet, so I imagine they're taking care not to put up too many more tables than they have signed-up GMs at any given time.

Shush your mouth! My Zon-Kuthon worshipping Tattooed Sorcerer of the Void was thrilled to be able to rescue the Paracountess:

I knew her first priority would be to look presentable upon her release, so I went shopping for noble outfits and the appropriate jewelry for her station. I wasn't certain how well fed she would be during her incarceration, so I picked up three outfits of different sizes, just to be safe.

As an Arbiter of the Gate, I was able to easily navigate the proper channels to secure her release. My companions were dismayed at the prospect of entering hell, but I was overjoyed, because how romantic is that? We were the few who could say that we walked into hell to release her from her unfair imprisonment.

When all was said and done, she showed her gratitude by sending me an engraved mithral waffle maker. I shall carry it with me from here on.

Uh...dude...that's *not* a waffle maker.

Congratulations, Jens! An extremely well-deserved recognition!

Congratulations, Rob! Incredibly well deserved!

I'm with Jiggy on this. The absolute highest starting stat I've ever had on any of my 10 PFS characters has been 18. 20 just isn't worth it for the hit you take everywhere else. Some of my characters don't have anything above a 16 (like my paladin). 20 just seems unnecessary to me in a great many ways.

Iammars wrote:

Running this tomorrow and preparing for the worst:

So let's say that the Ebon Acolytus gets its coup de gras off. Everyone fails at their knowledge check, so they have no clue that there is special conditions on the raise dead. So they go and all chip in and buy their buddy a raise dead. They go to the friendly local temple and ask their clergy of choice to raise their buddy. What happens? Is the diamond dust expended?

This all happens. They go do research and I'm assuming that spending enough time on it and motivated enough, they could probably find info on this kind of statue somewhere in the Grand Lodge's extensive records/that one library from that one other scenario.

Now, seeing as Lissala is a religion that everyone thought was dead for hundreds of years, there's not many public Lissalan temples around, and that one temple might not be too helpful with a raise on your buddy once you find out that you filled their place with sewage. Would it be okay to say "You can't find a priestess of Lissala in Absalom?"

I'm pretty sure I know the answers to those 2 questions, but seeing as my answers lead to a permanently dead character, I figured I'd check them here first just in case.

I am pretty sure it says clearly that the altar DOES NOT work for it in this module

The module explicitly mentions that

'The stone dais in this room does not count as an altar for the
purpose of the ebon acolytus’s prostration ability.'

(see the Ebon Acolytus's 'During Combat' section for that text.)

Unfortunately, Thomas, the only reference to altars under Prostration is:
'An ebon acolytus gains a +2 bonus on its combat maneuver check for the purposes of making this check if it is adjacent to an altar or similar site of ceremonial bloodletting.'

So the ebon acolytus doesn't get the +2, but the perma-death thing still works, as the text of that is under the Sacrifice ability, not the Prostration ability.

I disagree.

Warrior of the holy light removes your spellcasting ability.

Oathbound paladin modifies your spell list.

Your spell list can be modified just fine - you just can't access it.

Say a tiger bites someone then grabs them and maintains the next turn, what happens next?

Does the tiger automatically do the bite, claw, claw damage?
Does it have to roll attacks?
Is the bite included or excluded as the "holding body part"?
What about Rake? How does it work? 5 attacks total?

If the tiger maintains then it can't take a full attack. It can choose to deal damage as if it had hit the creature it's grappling with one of its attacks. This can be its bite, or either claw. No attack roll is made for this; the maintain roll is treated as the successful attack roll.

It then gets to make attack rolls with its 2 rakes as a free action.

That's it.

Scenario One

If the vials aren't shattered exactly simultaneously, then it works as follows.

Step 1: Each Player rolls 1 DC 20 save. If he passes, repeat this step for the second and subsequent saves, returning to this step after each successful save. On the first FAILED save, deal onset damage and proceed to step 2. If all 6 saves are passed, this sequence terminates.

Step 2: Having taken the onset damage, the player turns to the remaining doses and begins making saves against them. The save is now DC 22, as he has one dose of poison in his system. If his saves pass, he continues making DC 22 saves against remaining doses until he has passed all remaining saves, returning to this step after each passed save. On the second (and subsequent) FAILED save, proceed to step 3.

Step 3: Deal onset damage. Then, for every failed save after the first, increase the DC of all remaining saves against the poison by +2 and increase the duration by 50%. Return to step 2 after increasing DC and duration.

Scenario Two

If the vials are shattered exactly simultaneously, then it's as follows:

Step 1: Each Player rolls 1 DC 30 save. If he fails, he takes the initial onset damage and is poisoned for (normal duration +50% x5). The saves during this duration are all DC 30. If he passes, he is not poisoned. End of sequence.

Poison Cloud

For the poison cloud afterwards, it's debatable if it counts as a concentrated dose of the poison. If you think it does, that's a DC 30 save each round to avoid either a) onset damage and being poisoned, or b) onset damage, +2 DC and +50% duration if already poisoned. If you think it doesn't count as a concentrated dose, it's as above, but only DC 20.

Poisoned Characters

Poisoned characters then have to save during each of their turns to avoid ongoing poison damage, at the DC set by how many doses they have in their system, and for a duration based on the number of doses.

Stray Thoughts
The initial save can be describes as 'Does this dose of poison enter my system?' If the answer is YES, then check 'Am I already suffering from one or more doses of this poison?' If the answer is NO, deal onset damage and the character is poisoned. If the answer is YES, deal onset damage, +2 DC to the existing poison, +50% duration to the existing poison.

Paizo Blog on poisons may also help.

I would tend to agree that demoralising a giant crab would seem to be impossible on the face of it. The crab has no concept of your threats. How, exactly, are you able to scare a crab any more than you can scare a table? You're not causing it physical injury or laying hands on it; you're just yelling aggressively at it. It can't understand you. It doesn't know what your stance, volume, or tone of voice mean. It doesn't know if you're trying to be friendly or antagonistic. It just doesn't understand.

Here you go:

Natural Attacks (From the Bestiary, Universal Monster Rules)

Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.

Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.

(End quote)

So Mergy is right; 1xStr on the quickwood's bite.

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Demoralise applies the shaken condition.

The shaken condition comes under the 'fear' heading.

Paladins of the appropriate level cannot become shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Whether you succeed your Intimidate check or not, the shaken condition that would result from it is negated.

So yeah, +1 for 'It doesn't matter if Demoralise is a fear effect or not; the condition it applies *is* a fear effect, so anyone trying to use it on a paladin (of 3rd level or higher) is SOL.'

Just played this last night, and going through it now, but aren't the zombies all "fast" variants? So they are not staggered, and gain an extra slam attack due to the quick strikes ability.

Bestiary p. 289:
Fast Zombie
Unlike the standard, plodding zombie, a fast zombie moves with a supernatural quickness.
Speed: Increase the base creature’s land speed by 10 feet.
Defensive Abilities: A fast zombie does not gain DR 5/
slashing.
Special Attacks: A fast zombie gains the following
special attack.
Quick Strikes (Ex): Whenever a fast zombie takes a full attack
action, it can make one additional slam attack at its highest base attack bonus.
Abilities: As a standard zombie, except its Dexterity
is increased by 2 instead of reduced by 2.
Special Qualities: A fast zombie does not gain the
staggered special quality.

If you turn these into regular zombies, they become useless as opponents. As fast zombies, they were terrifying!

The owlbears are noted as being fast zombies. None of the other zombies in the adventure are.

Ninjaiguana wrote:

Saint Caleth wrote:

Ninjaiguana wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Just a reminder that you don't actually need trapfinding to find traps anymore.

Non-magical traps, at least. Trapfinding is still required to locate magical traps.

Trapfinding wrote:

A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

Nope, just to disarm them. Years into PF, this is still probably the most common DM mistake.

It is why people complain about the rogue, since a cleric with an astronomical perception and dispel magic prepared can do a rogue's job just as well.

Ugh, I knew that! Clearly it's too early in the morning for me to be posting on the boards..

Its not just you :) . My Rogue wanabe druid runs into that "rule" a LOT. And for some reason the idea that you can't try to pick a lock more than once. (which as far as i can find goes all the way back to second edition... 3.5 explicitly has Lita retrying on locks)

Well, I can at least say I run it right at the table...I just had a momentary lapse when I came to post. The lock thing I don't see as much, these days; most people I see just take 20 on it, so they know straight-out whether they succeed or fail with their level of skill.

Ninjaiguana wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Just a reminder that you don't actually need trapfinding to find traps anymore.

Non-magical traps, at least. Trapfinding is still required to locate magical traps.

Trapfinding wrote:

A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

Nope, just to disarm them. Years into PF, this is still probably the most common DM mistake.

It is why people complain about the rogue, since a cleric with an astronomical perception and dispel magic prepared can do a rogue's job just as well.

Ugh, I knew that! Clearly it's too early in the morning for me to be posting on the boards..

Just a reminder that you don't actually need trapfinding to find traps anymore.

Non-magical traps, at least. Trapfinding is still required to locate magical traps.

EDIT: Ignore this post, I'm being incorrect.

I ran this at the weekend.

I concur that the zombagus' cannot take full attacks due to their staggered condition; I had them taking one slam attack per round, end of.

The porcupines also aren't capable of taking full attacks. I had them taking one slam attack per round, and dislodging quills. Two of the porcupines got off one attack (both of which hit, dislodging 4 and 5 quils respectively!) before being destroyed, while the third was ganked before it acted.

It's a simple fact that if the enemies are staggered, full attacks are not possible, regardless of what the stat block says. The only way to get zombies to have full attacks is to make them variant zombies that lose the staggered condition. Since the owlbear zombies earlier on are specifically fast zombies (which do not have the staggered condition) while the zombagus are not, I assume that this is a deliberate design decision, and full attacking zombagus' were not really intended.

One of my favorite recent Haunts was the Haunt in...(Season 4)

** spoiler omitted **

Heh, you should look at my review of the module in question. I actually had a real beef with that haunt because it *didn't* give any information, despite the fact that the players have no idea what's gone on in that area and it's a place where a haunt 'info dump' would be perfect.

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Can't be bothered running through 8 pages to see if the right answer to the question's been given, so I'll post it here.

Firstly, check the 'maneuver master' monk archetype in UC, which says:

'At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action.'

So this clearly gives us two options for Combat Maneuvers: 'replaces an attack' (usable on a full attack, can replace multiple attacks) or 'requires a standard action'.

Then look at the Combat rules in Core for the following text:

Bull Rush: 'You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.'

So you can't Bull Rush with one of your attacks in a full attack action (unless you have the maneuver master archetype)

Disarm: You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack.

So you can disarm with one (or more) iterative attacks in a full attack action

Grapple: As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options.

So you can't Grapple with one of your attacks in a full attack action (unless you have the maneuver master archetype)

Overrun: As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.

No Overrun on a full attack

Sunder: You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack.

Wording on this one is clunkier for no reason, but we know from maneuver master that we have a binary choice when it comes to these maneuvers. This doesn't take a 'standard action', so it falls into the 'replaces an attack' category.

So you can sunder with one (or more) iterative attacks in a full attack action

Trip: You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack.

So you can trip with one (or more) iterative attacks in a full attack action

Have a summary for convenience (and I'll throw in the UC manuevers as well):

Replaces one (or more) of your iterative attacks: Disarm, sunder, trip

Standard action: Bull rush, dirty trick, drag, grapple, overrun, reposition, steal

Done.

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A haunt done right:

** spoiler omitted **
It's actually part of the plot, instead of something that hits you and then you get on with the actual mission.

I played that module last Saturday evening, and I absolutely concur.

Another example of a good use of a haunt is in

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I bet more than a few of you have read that title up these and given a little sigh before clicking on this thread. I can't say I entirely disagree – if there's one aspect of PFS that's been overexposed recently, it's haunts. This situation is only compounded by the fact that many people are still shaky on the way that haunts actually work; and even for the rules-savvy of our community, there are still some grey areas on how they function.

I'm not intending to talk about the mechanics of haunts in this post. That topic's been done to death all over the place. I'm also not intending to harp on about any haunt in particular. This post is on haunts in general, and their use in Pathfinder Society Organised Play scenarios.

In recent seasons, haunts seem to have become extremely popular with scenario writers. Every other scenario I pick up has a haunt in it somewhere. Enough is enough. I believe that there's a right way and a wrong way to use haunts, and far too many modules of late have been using them in the wrong way.

First and most importantly: A haunt is not a trap.

Read that sentence a few times. Engrave it into your brain. It's the most important part of this post.

As most of you probably know, haunts originated in Pathfinder #2, The Skinsaw Murders. The haunts in that adventure told the story of a doomed family, torn apart by insanity, jealousy and betrayal. As characters explored an ancient, crumbling manor house, they saw the ancient fall of the manor's former owners play out before their eyes – indeed, they themselves were forced to re-enact some of the horrific events of the past, possibly with fatal consequences.

Can you spot the most important detail of that paragraph? The key element that every haunt should possess, the element that differentiates them so absolutely from being a trap by any other name?

Information. It's that simple. First and foremost, a haunt is a way to provide the player characters with information that they have no other way of discovering, and to do it in a creepy and interesting way. If you're using a haunt, you're able to give the characters ringside seats to ancient secrets, hidden tragedies known to not a single living soul.

Too many haunts in recent scenarios provide no information whatsoever. They're simply traps by another name. When these haunts are over, the players have no more information about the plot of the scenario than they did before.

So please, scenario writers. Before you include a haunt in your module stop and think. Ask yourself this question: What does this haunt tell the players? What information do I need to impart with this encounter that I can't impart in another way?

And if you're not telling the players anything with the haunt, then please consider replacing it with a trap. A trap doesn't have to tell a story.

Please stop cheapening haunts, and let them return to the rare, evocative, informative encounters that they were initially designed as. I can only hope such behaviour will result in less haunts in modules, and improve the quality of haunts in those cases that they do appear.

A haunt is not a trap. Please stop treating haunts as if they are.

zean wrote:

I mean, I guess you could cast Daylight, but if the NPCs just cast Deeper Darkness again, doesn't that counter Daylight?

To be able to nullify your daylight they would have to cast it and touch the source with their charge, as deeper darkness and daylight are touch spells.

It's also *generally* accepted that two deeper darknesses + one daylight = same as one of each. Their effects don't stack, and basically their areas create a "Venn diagram" of light levels.

Exactly this. 2 Deeper Darkness spells doesn't overpower one Daylight spell; all 3 spells are ineffective in their overlapping areas of effect.

The only way to end an ongoing Daylight with a Deeper Darkness is to have the Deeper Darkness caster touch the item that the Daylight is emanating from. That ends the Deeper Darkness that they just cast before it starts, and dispels the Daylight. If there's still another Deeper Darkness spell in the room, it is now unhindered in its effects.

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I'm planning on turning up with 4-01 through 4-04 prepped and ready to run, at the very least. ^_^

I hate to get into this but... in addition to what Ninjaiguana said, there's one more limitation:

You cannot re-skin something into something else that is already statted up in the game. If (and I repeat if) there were already a parrying glove defined in the game, then he would not be able to reskin a buckler as a parrying glove, regardless of how he handled the stats.

Very true. I apologise for not mentioning that in my post.

...There *isn't* a parrying glove out there, right? :S

Ninjaiguana wrote:

kinevon wrote:

The Great Rinaldo! wrote:

Jacob Saltband wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

You can't get custom items, whether from NPCs or PCs. You can only have gear exactly as printed in legal resources or on chronicle sheets, unless otherwise specified by the Guide or Official FAQ.

The problem I have with saying you cant get custom items is that one of the original characters from the core rules has a custom item as his arcane focus.

What character and item are you referring to?

Would you believe Ezren?

He has a cane as his Arcane Bond. IIRC.

Ezren has:

1) Bought a club. (an item defined as a weapon)
2) Named that weapon as his arcane bond. (perfectly legal)
3) Re-skinned his club as a cane. (bit shaky on whether re-skinning is allowed in PFS and to what extent, but this seems harmless enough.)

His cane isn't a custom item; it's an item in the base rules that he has reskinned. In all ways, his cane functions as a club, he just calls it a cane.

So this "reskinning" as you call it is a way to make items more personnal, just so long as the item is based off of a legal item from the books.

Thats pretty much what I was looking to do for my cleric. Something a little more personnal. Not looking to break any rules just looking to give my character a little individualism.

Well, the trick is that Ezren's 'cane' is identical to a club in everything but name. You couldn't, say, have a short sword with a lockpicking kit hidden in the pommel, meaning it can double as a set of thieves tools. Basically, re-skinning an object can't grant you any benefits beyond those the object already grants you, nor remove any penalties that the normal object applies. It has to do exactly what the object does, but you just describe it differently. A re-skinned object is not 'based off' the legal item - it *is* the legal item. It just looks a bit different.

For instance, one of my characters has a 'parrying glove'. It's a series of metal strips and mail mesh that fastens on like a forearm-length glove, and helps him deflect attacks. Mechanically, it's a buckler. It's priced as a buckler, it's statted as a buckler. I mention it when I describe the character, and if anyone at the table objects, for that scenario, it really *is* a buckler, and not a glove*. It's only there because the character is a duelist type, and a buckler didn't fit my image of him, but a 'parrying glove' did. That's the limit of re-skinning; no mechanical differences from the base item, period.

* That's the other thing you have to be prepared for with re-skinned items; you need to be able to let them be 'un re-skinned' on a scenario-by-scenario basis if a GM or player objects to your re-skinning. If they're asking, it either bothers them, or they have another equally good reason for asking. If you've re-skinned an item, you don't get to object to this. You just have to play it as the base item for that game. If the re-skinning truly is purely cosmetic, this shouldn't prove an issue.

The Great Rinaldo! wrote:

Jacob Saltband wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

You can't get custom items, whether from NPCs or PCs. You can only have gear exactly as printed in legal resources or on chronicle sheets, unless otherwise specified by the Guide or Official FAQ.

The problem I have with saying you cant get custom items is that one of the original characters from the core rules has a custom item as his arcane focus.

What character and item are you referring to?

Would you believe Ezren?

He has a cane as his Arcane Bond. IIRC.

Ezren has:

1) Bought a club. (an item defined as a weapon)
2) Named that weapon as his arcane bond. (perfectly legal)
3) Re-skinned his club as a cane. (bit shaky on whether re-skinning is allowed in PFS and to what extent, but this seems harmless enough.)

His cane isn't a custom item; it's an item in the base rules that he has reskinned. In all ways, his cane functions as a club, he just calls it a cane.

JCServant wrote:

Dragon, I said that I would allow players to reassign attacks if the target went down...However, YOU are going away from that very rule quote when you allow a player/monster who declared a full round attack to change his mind after the first hit is resolved and change it to a standard attack (allowing him to move afterwards). No where does that rule allow a player to change a full round attack into a standard one. Alternatively, a player who declares a standard attack can NOT change it to a full round attack (e.g. if it misses)

Core Rules wrote:

Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you've already taken a 5-foot step, you can't use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.

In a foolhardy attempt to prevent a thread derail, I'll just say that this topic has been discussed at length more than once, and the most recent thread can be found here.

I sincerely hope we can avoid turning this topic into another full attack debate and stay on topic to the thread title.

Ninjaiguana wrote:

Moglun wrote:

Ninjaiguana wrote:

I believe in all of these circumstances, you can cancel after your first attack and take a move action, as per the #1 interpretation from the OP and the full attack text.

The RAW does NOT prove #3 correct, no matter what some people in this thread may insist. The back and forth of this argument shows how ambiguous the RAW is.

So can you explain how it is possible to use Manyshot (which specifically states that it can only be used during a full attack) and then not actually take the full attack action without breaking the rules?

Alright.

concerro wrote:

JrK wrote:

concerro wrote:

Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you've already taken a 5-foot step, you can't use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.

What concerro is pointing out is this: the full attack action does not allow you to choose between attacking once and moving, or making all iterative attacks. Rather, you make one attack and then choose to do a full attack or not. I have bolded the relevant parts.

Thanks. That is what I was getting at.

I believe that this section *is* a subsection of full attack, which concerro does not. Therefore I believe that it refers to the first attack of a full attack, because if it did not, it would be talking about a standard attack.

The text refers to 'your first attack' and then 'your remaining attacks', so I believe it is discussing attacks within the context and framework of a full attack. As such, I believe that this text provides an explicit way for a character to declare a full attack at the start of their turn - which is when you declare things like this,

...

And here's the nub of it - I don't believe your italised argument is correct. I have seen poor editing lead to ambiguity before, and I believe that has happened here. I believe that the text explicity refers to a full attack and then lets you back out of it, while you say that it means nothing of the sort.

Now I really *am* done. Promise.

Ninjaiguana wrote:

I believe that this section *is* a subsection of full attack, which concerro does not. Therefore I believe that it refers to the first attack of a full attack, because if it did not, it would be talking about a standard attack.

The text refers to 'your first attack' and then 'your remaining attacks', so I believe it is discussing attacks within the context and framework of a full attack. As such, I believe that this text provides an explicit way for a character to declare a full attack at the start of their turn - which is when you declare things like this, not after your attack - and then abort that full attack after they have taken the first attack, with all attendant bonuses and penalties to that attack.

I agree, except that if you abort the full attack you are no longer spending a full round action to make a full attack, you are spending a standard action on a regular attack (thus "Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack", 'attack' having earlier been defined as a standard action). With regard to TWF, nothing about the TWF rules indicates that you must make a full attack to receive the penalty. Rather, you receive the penalty to gain an extra attack, and you must make a full attack action to use that extra attack. So a character could start their round using TWF and then abandon the full attack without breaking any rules.

So you're saying you can back out after the first attack if you've only taken a penalty at that point, but can't if you're benefited in some way?

What about flurry of blows? You take a -2 to hit to gain an additional attack on a full attack, but you also set your BAB to equal your monk level for all flurry attacks. Can you declare flurry of blows and then cancel out after the first (increased BAB, -2 to hit) attack?

Ninjaiguana wrote:

I believe in all of these circumstances, you can cancel after your first attack and take a move action, as per the #1 interpretation from the OP and the full attack text.

The RAW does NOT prove #3 correct, no matter what some people in this thread may insist. The back and forth of this argument shows how ambiguous the RAW is.

So can you explain how it is possible to use Manyshot (which specifically states that it can only be used during a full attack) and then not actually take the full attack action without breaking the rules?

Alright.

JrK wrote:

concerro wrote:

Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you've already taken a 5-foot step, you can't use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.

What concerro is pointing out is this: the full attack action does not allow you to choose between attacking once and moving, or making all iterative attacks. Rather, you make one attack and then choose to do a full attack or not. I have bolded the relevant parts.

Thanks. That is what I was getting at.

I believe that this section *is* a subsection of full attack, which concerro does not. Therefore I believe that it refers to the first attack of a full attack, because if it did not, it would be talking about a standard attack.

The text refers to 'your first attack' and then 'your remaining attacks', so I believe it is discussing attacks within the context and framework of a full attack. As such, I believe that this text provides an explicit way for a character to declare a full attack at the start of their turn - which is when you declare things like this, not after your first attack - and then abort that full attack after they have taken the first attack, with all attendant bonuses and penalties to that attack.

Setting aside Manyshot for the moment, my reading avoids situations such as a character declaring Two-Weapon Fighting, taking a -2 to hit on their first attack, and by killing their target with that hit, screwing themselves out of a move for no gain whatsoever, but in fact causing themselves a net penalty through no fault of their own.

People are hot on not wanting a Manyshot 'exploit' in this way, but what about TWF, where your reading actually penalises the character for no gain whatsoever?

Anyway, now that I've summarised my stance, I'm going to take a break from this thread and let others discuss it.

Ninjaiguana wrote:

Clearly this is getting us nowhere. I will close by saying that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. Your arguments regarding placement have not convinced me. Your interpretation of the rules has not convinced me. Your certainty has not convinced me. I appreciate you offering your opinion in this discussion, and will await official clarification on this topic.

I can only assume, and I might be wrong, that you don't like my "confidence" and it is swaying your decision. I noticed you have said nothing that disproves what I have written. I did not offer an opinion. I gave a fact. I am not being rude, even if it might seem that say. I am just certain that I am correct, and that manyshot does not allow you to use it as a standard or full attack action by RAW or RAI.

No, that's fine. I admit that anyone coming in and asserting certainty does get on my nerves a little, but more importantly, no argument I make is going to convince somebody who is that certain of their position. As such, I see no reason to continue debating the point.

I am equally certain that you are incorrect. I stand my by assertion that both our opinions are equally valid, and yours is no more correct than mine. I have already explained my view, and I am not convinced by your counterpoints.

I don't see anything resulting from continuing to state our opposing viewpoints, since I'm not going to budge, and I very much doubt that you will either. Therefore I'm going to stop arguing and will just read how this thread goes. I actually don't like arguing very much, and prefer to avoid it when it's clearly not going to achieve anything.

Ninjaiguana wrote:

Concerro - you say people make the 'mistake' of assuming that the text is a subset of the Full Attack Section. It's more correct to say you don't believe it is a subsection of the full attack section, despite its placement in the book. Not having written the text yourself, you cannot know what was intended by RAW - you can only interpret.

I figured someone might say that. I am glad you did. Now I can bring out the next point. The full round action is the header, and the others are subsections of that. Not that they are bolded and lined up evenly with not tabs(indentions). Just below the "Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack" section you have other sections that are all setup just like it, so if that one is a subsection of the full attack section, and not a subsection of the Full Round section, then the other are also subsections of the full attack section.

The following are:
"Cast a Spell"
"Casting a Metamagic Spell"
"Move 5 Feet through Difficult Terrain"
"Run"
"Use Special Ability"
"Withdraw"

Now are you going to tell me those are full round attacks or would you say they are full round actions also?

Quote:

You also say 'that is how it is', when what you actually mean is 'that is how I believe it works'. Please don't assume you are defending the correct point of view against misguided people who are using the rules wrong - you aren't. You're supporting an interpretation that has as much (or as little) validity by RAW as the opposing interpretation.

I also know I am correct. You should not assume that I am not correct. I don't need to assume anything. I am 100% sure of this. Some people come on here and say that no interpretation is no more correct than another, but that is not true. If one person's statement agrees with the devs then they are correct, and the other is not the one of the people is correct so I see no reason to say "I believe" when I know I am right. In short not all interpretation are equally valid. In theory maybe, but in...

Clearly this is getting us nowhere. I will close by saying that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. Your arguments regarding placement have not convinced me. Your interpretation of the rules has not convinced me. Your certainty has not convinced me. I appreciate you offering your opinion in this discussion, and will await official clarification on this topic.

Pirate: I am just learning PFS rules but I think you can choose a faction right from the start in PFS? If true then PFS characters can choose these traits immediately.

If not true then assuming they can choose a faction by level 2 then when they hit level 2 they may rebuild (as per PFS rebuild rules when hitting level 2) and then add this trait.

- Gauss

Gauss, you are correct in stating that PFS characters can take one of these traits at character creation, or at any time in the future with the Additional Traits feat.

I'd be inclined to end it like a movie or the final episode of a tv show. The character resolutely enters the cathedral, then fade to black.

This was my exact thought upon reading the OP. +1.

I just had a thought.

OK, Fred Fighterman is a longsword-and-shield fighter with a pair of boots of speed. Fred starts his turn adjacent to Thugs McGee, who is attempting to job Fred, despite the fact that Fred is wearing mithral full plate and Thugs is armed with a makeshift cosh made out of a dead rat and a sock.

Fred wins initiative, activates his magic boots, and declares a full attack. Fred takes his bonus haste attack as his first attack - he's entirely within his rights to do this, as the rules say you have to attack from highest attack bonus to lowest, and the haste attack is taken at maximum bonus. Indeed, his haste attack must be his first or second attack of the full attack, or he's breaking the combat rules.

Fred's hasted swing cuts Thugs in half. Thugs takes an immediate action to contemplate his poor decision-making skills, and keels over dead.

Can Fred now abort his remaining attacks and take a move action? haste only adds a bonus attack on a full attack. Has Fred done himself out of a move?

Ninjaiguana: While you may not have made the errors that you are accusing Concerro of your 'side' (AD specifically) has done the same thing and I do not see you calling him on it. Just thought I would point that out.

- Gauss

Gauss, I do apologise for that. I would sincerely hope that people arguing on both sides would not represent their point of view as the 'one true way' - it's just that I'm more likely to notice when it's in arguments I'm attempting to rebut. I hope I have made myself clear in that I don't believe my interpretation is correct, and people advocating the oppsite are incorrect; I just believe both are equally valid, and thus people should run whichever one they subscribe to at their own table, pending dev clarification.

Once again, mea culpa.

It is really this simple:

Are you using a full attack action?

Yes:You get the first two arrows.
By saying yes you are commited to the action.
During a normal situation you get to attack and then decide because you have not committed yourself to anything, much like with TWF once you decide you are TWF'ing you can't just rewind time to remove that -2 penalty.

No:You get one arrow.
If this was a TWF then you can not suddenly go into TWF mode because the -2 was not applied to the first attack.
edit:

Quote:

Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you've already taken a 5-foot step, you can't use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.

If you look at the combat chapter the Full Round action section has subsections titled "Full Attack Action" and "Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack". The mistake many people make is assuming that the "Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack" is a subsection of the "Full Attack Section" which would change the way it is read.

Adamatine Dragon is assuming that you are committing to a full attack action at the beginning, making the first attack, and then given the option to continue the full attack or go take. That is not the case.

What you are doing is making the first attack, and then deciding if you want to take a move action or transition into a full attack, but once you commit to the full attack by taking that second interative attack, assuming there is one, then you can't just take it back. By the same logic once you commit to manyshot by accepting those two arrows you can't back out of a full round attack, and downgrade it into a move action.

Manyshot however requires you to commit to the full attack action from the first attack. That is how it is...

Concerro - you say people make the 'mistake' of assuming that the text is a subset of the Full Attack Section. It's more correct to say you don't believe it is a subsection of the full attack section, despite its placement in the book. Not having written the text yourself, you cannot know what was intended by RAW - you can only interpret.

You also say 'that is how it is', when what you actually mean is 'that is how I believe it works'. Please don't assume you are defending the correct point of view against misguided people who are using the rules wrong - you aren't. You're supporting an interpretation that has as much (or as little) validity by RAW as the opposing interpretation.

Finally, you also say that you 'trade up' to a full attack after the first attack, but the rules in the book actually couch it in entirely the opposite terms - they describe it as you starting a full attack and then 'cancelling out' in order to take a move action.

Also, iterative attack and Manyshot are not by any stretch the 'same logic' - one is a rider to your first attack, and the other is not. Nobody is going to argue that you can't cancel a full attack after your second action - but clearly many people will aregue that you can cancel a full attack after having used Manyshot.

So, interpretation #3 means you can trap yourself by forfeiting your option to take a move action later. This would happen with any ability that requires a Full Attack action: Manyshot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Monk Flurry, etc.

Is it also correct to state then from interpretation #3 that the option to take a move action later after cancelling a Full Attack action only works with iterative attacks?

Yes. From the #3 interpretation, you lose your ability to 'cancel out' after the first attack of a full attack under all of the following circumstances;

1) You have used Manyshot on your first attack, and your first attack has killed your only foe in sight. BENEFIT: You have done double damage on that attack.
2) You have declared Two-Weapon Fighting, and your first attack has killed the only foe within a 5-ft step of you. PENALTY: You have taken a -2 to hit on that attack, and all it has caused you to do is forfeit your move action.
3) You have declared flurry of blows, and your first attack has killed the only foe within a 5-ft step of you. BENEFIT/PENALTY: You have benefitted from full BAB for that attack, but also taken -2 to hit.

I believe in all of these circumstances, you can cancel after your first attack and take a move action, as per the #1 interpretation from the OP and the full attack text.

The RAW does NOT prove #3 correct, no matter what some people in this thread may insist. The back and forth of this argument shows how ambiguous the RAW is.

Regardless, the argument can't be won by either side. It's been tried before. People will just circle round insisting that their interpretation is correct, and we get nowhere. FAQ the OP and leave it at that.

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Ninjaiguana: Sorry to hear that, it really is about the fact that the ability starts off as Full-attack action rather than giving you the choice later. However, play your game your way. Unless it is PFS there wont be a problem. :)

- Gauss

Oh, I run Manyshot as per option #3 in PFS, too. Your interpretation of the rules is not one I agree with, and it is no more valid than mine and Adamantine Dragon's. Hence this thread - and the one before it - reaching no consensus, because there is no clear-cut right answer by RAW. People can parse the text all they want, stressing various sentences where it will do their position the most good, but the text is ambiguous on the face of it, and that's the end of it. Pending dev commentary, of course.

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The arguments of people supporting #1 do not convince me, and I agree with Adamantine Dragon. However, I'm not going to bother trying to fight my corner further, because it won't help. Just hit the FAQ button and move on.

Number #1. Read the text quoted above:

'After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round.'

It goes like this;

- Start of your turn. You declare a full attack. Manyshot, Monk flurry BAB etc all trigger here.
- Your first shot kills your target, and no enemies remain. You elect to take a move action in place of subsequent attacks. You have, however, already declared a full attack; you've just aborted that full attack before it was fully complete using a legal opportunity to do so.

To the people suggesting it's number 3, what happens in this situation?

- You full attack with a bow. After your first attack hits, the target leaves your target area. Maybe the target readies an action (or has a contingency) with a trigger of 'when I am struck by an arrow, dimension door'. Would you deny the attacker Manyshot on that first attack?

What about if the readied action was 'scorching ray on the first person that shoots me with an arrow' and the spell's damage dropped the archer? Are they then forced into only being allowed a single attack with no Manyshot benefits, having been felled after the first attack of their full attack?

Manyshot damage is added on the first attack of a declared full attack. You may then legally abort the full attack after the first shot, and still have used Manyshot on that first arrow.

Ninjaiguana wrote:

thrikreed wrote:

Ninjaiguana wrote:

thrikreed wrote:

Does this example work better? Does this cover your expectations of how this should run?

Pretty much, yeah. What's your opinion on running it this way?

2. Running away is not a valid option.

In order to run away, the entire party must make their perception check DC 15 to run away before the haunt throws it's effect. The perfect party composed of a cleric (+13 perception), fighter (+10 perception), rogue (+10 perception), and wizard (+10 perception); they have a 48.6% chance of being able to run away.

The chances of finding a party of 4 who all took wisdom 14, 1 rank in perception, skill focus: perception, and a talent granting +1 (and class skill); the chances of finding that party without planning are almost astronomical.

I think a real baseline party needs to be established. The party needs to be build for general play (and not just this one encounter)...

This point I certainly contest; the haunt's area of effect is a 5ft. radius around the center of the table. As soon as any character enters that area, the haunt triggers. If no characters are standing in that area on initiative 0 (or 10 in tier 4-5) in the surprise round, the haunt triggers harmlessly, and is then dormant for 1 hour.

I find it very unlikely that more than one character will have entered such a small area at the same time. As such, your perfect party has an excellent chance of running away at tier 1-2 (95% on the cleric, 80% on anyone else), and at least has a chance at tier 4-5, depending on initiative bonuses.

what puts the PCs in Initiative?

when does the Judge (me) place the PC's in the surprise round?

when one (or more) of the players move up to the table. Then you go into a surprize round. Your PC gets either a move or an action. Most players will act. Normally to ready an action. So... your PC still gets a 5 ft step - hope you take it away from the table. Most players don't take the...

Initiative starts once any character moves into the haunt's area of effect and triggers the manifestation. Everyone in the vicinity gets a Perception check, and then the surprise round happens.

The last three times a PC has made the skill check to detect a haunt in my games, their surprise round action has been to move away from it.

In all cases, it's been 1 PC scouting slightly ahead of the group. A spooky thing has happened, and their reaction has been to flee back towards the party to regroup.

I don't know about you, but if I hear ghostly wails or see knives starting to move by themselves or my hands start to shrivel up or whatever, backing off until I can figure out what the bejeezus is going on seems like a sensible response. This is a response I've seen born out in 3 separate scenarios now.

Ninjaiguana wrote:

thrikreed wrote:

Does this example work better? Does this cover your expectations of how this should run?

Pretty much, yeah. What's your opinion on running it this way?

2. Running away is not a valid option.

In order to run away, the entire party must make their perception check DC 15 to run away before the haunt throws it's effect. The perfect party composed of a cleric (+13 perception), fighter (+10 perception), rogue (+10 perception), and wizard (+10 perception); they have a 48.6% chance of being able to run away.

The chances of finding a party of 4 who all took wisdom 14, 1 rank in perception, skill focus: perception, and a talent granting +1 (and class skill); the chances of finding that party without planning are almost astronomical.

I think a real baseline party needs to be established. The party needs to be build for general play (and not just this one encounter)...

This point I certainly contest; the haunt's area of effect is a 5ft. radius around the center of the table. As soon as any character enters that area, the haunt triggers. If no characters are standing in that area on initiative 0 (or 10 in tier 4-5) in the surprise round, the haunt triggers harmlessly, and is then dormant for 1 hour.

I find it very unlikely that more than one character will have entered such a small area at the same time. As such, your perfect party has an excellent chance of running away at tier 1-2 (95% on the cleric, 80% on anyone else), and at least has a chance at tier 4-5, depending on initiative bonuses.

Does this example work better? Does this cover your expectations of how this should run?

Pretty much, yeah. What's your opinion on running it this way?

Ninjaiguana wrote:

Not sure how many other 12th level+ characters we have in the UK - our VC likely has more names he could add.

One more adventure, dammit...

You're too busy crime-fighting in Absalom, that's your problem.

After all, you'll never get to a PFS session on time if you keep spending your evenings beating up street thugs.

We had a table of lvl 12s at Paizocon UK last month - I believe it consisted of the following:

Eran Deshari, Male Human Fighter 12, Osirion
Renba Akh, Male Human Cleric of Nethys 12, Osirion
Baroness Terisille Hanril, Female Human Bard 12, Taldor
Szallus Myzauri, Male Human fey-blooded Sorcerer 12, Taldor
Brotil Dankor, Male Dwarf Cleric of Irori 12, Osirion
Knight Captain Hobb Tosscobble, Male Halfling elemental (air)-blooded sorcerer 12, Andoran

Not sure how many other 12th level+ characters we have in the UK - our VC likely has more names he could add.

Boots of Speed for my fighter types. Nothing in particular for my other characters.