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1,665 posts. No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Kitty In A Fishbowl wrote:

1)Replacing the headband i feel it will hurt, my DC are important to me, as the interactions i could get roleplaying (I'm the party face).

2)I could ask to my cleric to cast some spell that gives chance of missing on me...will that solve the problem?

3)Shield doesn't convince me because of the duration of the spell; Magic Armour has a great duration and it gives +4 AC too.
Shouldn't i get a wand of that spell instead of burning a spell known slot?

4)Is Web a weak spell for my level? In that case i could swap it for Mirror Image.
Invisibility with Glitterdust could be a nice shot, because anyway the summoner already have Invisibility, and i think he could cast that on me.

5a)Does Pages of Spell Knowledge let me learn a spell from another source than mine (arcane) or "just" (and i'm not meaning it's a poor option) arcane ones?
5b)Does Mnemonic Vestment works with Pages of Spell K.? If i have understood this item doesn't consume the scroll or so, using it, am i wrong?

Answers in order! ;)

1- Replacing the headband with a lower level version does hurt some things obviously, but with such little gold to spend at your level (you're basically a level behind Wealth By Level recommendations), it's just a matter of prioritizing.
If you're happy spending the 36k gold for the full +6, then go for it. But downgrading to a +4 saves you 16k gold you can spend elsewhere. In the end, you just gotta answer this one for yourself. ;)

2- In place of a Mirror Image? No. Clerics have some great defensive spell options, but Mirror Image is one the best personal physical defense spell in the game (others being things like Greater Invisibility or Prismatic Sphere, basically Arcane spells that the Cleric likely won't have access to).
The Cleric absolutely can cover things like Communal Resist Energy though.

3- You're totally right on Shield. :) Learn Mage Armor and keep a wand of Shield.

4- Web is a fantastic spell at lower levels, but as you gain levels, you gain better options, like Create Pit and Black Tentacles.
It's worth it to swap out Web for something else, IMO.

5a- No, you can only learn spells that are on your list (Sorcerer/Wizard arcane spells for you, Cleric/Oracle spells for an Oracle, Bard spells for a Bard, etc.) with Pages.
5b- The Mnemonic Vestments work with any written spell (scrolls, spellbooks, etc) that is on your spell list (Sorcerer/Wizard) and of the same level or lower as the slot you use to cast it.
I'm sure technically you could use it to cast from a Page of Spell Knowledge, but that would just be a waste of the Vestment's usage, because the Page of Spell Knowledge just adds that spell to your list of Spells Known. :)

Fireball is a must. Lightning bolt is harder to make work since it's a line effect and you'll have a hard time getting enough targets to make it worth the cast. Having both tends to be a waste, since they're both designed to do the same thing but Fireball does it better.

Damage spells are great for a caster, so don't let the haters get you down. ;)
When they say blasting is bad, that's against the big bad evil guy. You don't drop a fireball on the boss - you drop it on his goons.

Knowing good positioning is great, but sometimes there just isn't that option, which is where spells like Expedious Retreat or Fly or Dimension Door really come in handy (You're not wrong about a dispelled Fly - It's a really really good spell to take, but you shouldn't take it if you don't have Featherfall too!)

You could bring your Headband down from a +6 to a +4 and not notice a huge difference, then in a few levels when you have substantially more wealth, pick up the extra +2 again.

Pages of Spell Knowledge are incredibly worth the price, because your weakness as a Sorcerer is that you might not "know" the spell you need, and these pages go a long way in offsetting that weakness. It can get expensive fast though, so generally keep only a few and make sure the spells you get them for are really solid spells.

And finally, the Mnemonic Vestment lets you use your own spell slot to cast a spell from a written item, like a scroll. You don't have to create the item, you can buy it in town, or find it in your loot after an adventure.
It's really helpful for things you want to keep handy but don't want to blow a "spell known" on. Something like a scroll of Remove Curse - you can buy the scroll and use the Vestment to cast the scroll with your spell slot, which means you get the spell effect and get to keep the scroll for next time, when normally the scroll would be "used up" afterwards. :)

For starters, what Sorcerer Bloodline did you go with?
Otherwise, besides buying up items, I'd suggest replacing either Fireball or Lightning bolt with something else (Haste/Slow are great options, IMO.) Having one is practically a must, but having both is kind of a waste.

Lemmy wrote:

Use 3pp or homebrew... I humbly suggest this.

...And this, for extra fun (falchions are boring after 300 characters using them). ;)

The Weapon Master Handbook is pretty nice too.

Just out of curiosity, what Will saves *aren't* covered by your version of Bravery? (ie: why not just give full Will bonus and scrap Bravery?)

There has been a lot of general roleplay advice, as well as advice about not being afraid to roleplay an enjoyment of an activity you aren't any good at. The Fighter who likes to cook but isn't really very good at it, for example.

I should clarify that my concern was exactly the opposite: How to be a Fighter that is *actually good* at something other than just fighting.
The Fighter who likes to cook and is very good at it, enough that maybe it's a retirement option after adventuring life is over.

That said, I think Background Skills basically cover this need perfectly. Thanks to those who pointed them out!

Fighters are notorious as being good at dealing damage and nothing else, and personally I've found that when playing a Fighter, once my build is finished, I no longer have anything to look forward to.
The lack of out-of-combat abilities/skill points makes having any real non-combat hobbies almost impossible.

The cop-out answer is always "roleplay" but that doesn't take into consideration that your character sheet is there to tell you what your strengths and weaknesses are, and when all of your strengths rely on killing something, it leaves a pretty big hole in the potential for believable roleplay.

Maybe I really enjoy cooking?
Well, I would if I could afford to put any points into Craft or Profession, but being Int-low and having only 2 skill points per level means I'm tapped out once the "adventure-necessary" skills are taken.

Any tips/tricks/hints/experience to give?

Like, how does this pregnancy work??
Okay, so spell effects wear off! The Fey is going to revert back to Tiny, and she'll still be pregnant with Medium-sized child.

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thejeff wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
thejeff wrote:
It's not actually RAW as far as I can tell that the soul is "ripped from their final resting place and forced back". Other than in a few special cases, where the soul

Well it actually is.

I mean, if you have been dead for 500 years, and then your corpse is animated...

What happened during that 500 years?

Yeah, animating dead is damn evil.

Except that, as far as I can tell, there is no RAW saying your soul is actually used. Just that it prevents you from being raised. One interpretation is that your soul is tied to the undead body. It could simply be interfering in some other fashion.

Isn't it obvious why Resurrection magic doesn't work? Your body is occupied by whatever force (RAW seems to say Negative Energy) is animating your meat bag!

Someone casts a Raise Dead. Your soul flies down to it's body... and can't get back in, because Neg Energy hung an ethereal sign around your neck that says, "Occupado."

Which is why you have to destroy undead before you can resurrect them: You gotta evict the current tenants first!

Furthermore, if the soul is being trapped inside it's own body... to fuel it's unlife... then why isn't it just alive again? Original body + original soul = Vampire? Huh?
And even if you go with that, what is making the original soul evil all of a sudden? The Neg Energy? No, that can't be it because Negative Energy is specifically not-evil (it's neutral, just like Positive Energy or Fire, etc.)

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Ashiel wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
No matter what the initial goal or justfication may be... you simply can't exist beyond your alotted span without a price. And frequently much of that price is paid by the innocent.

The price of becoming a Mummy, which is a popular lich alternative for clerics and such, is holy oils, blessed linens, fragrant flowers, and so forth. In fact, it's very holy, sacred, and noble.

And then "Evil" is slapped on you because screw everyone.

Adding to this, Wizards who reach level 20 and take the Immortality Arcane Discovery don't get slapped with a "you must be Evil now" sticker.

So... the "skirting life span" theory just doesn't hold any weight.

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If your players are trying to lawyer their way out of a roll, don't forget you can just out-lawyer them:

HWalsh wrote:

PCs are asked to turn over an item they got in a dungeon and one responds with, "We didn't find the (insert here)!"

"Roll a Bluff check."

"Well I'm not lying, we didn't find it, we were given it by the ghost of the high priest. So its not a lie."

"Well, the ghost was in the dungeon, and you found the item in it's possession. So if you wanna play with technicalities, you absolutely did 'find' the item in the dungeon, so roll your bluff."

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Atarlost wrote:
And in less time since depending on the time of day it may take them as little as 8 hours to get their spells back instead of having to wait the full 24 hours for the headband bonus to count as permanent.

Getting your spell slots back for the day requires 8 hours of rest and a full day to pass.

You don't get slots back every time you rest for 8 hours. (See the text of Ring of Sustenance if you don't believe.)

Staying relevant against higher encounters requires wealth. No class has the built-in tools to survive encounters designed to be a challenge after a certain threshold (especially at higher levels).
Martials need magical weapons and protections.
Casters need magical protections and ways to boost their spell's chances of successfully landing.
Everyone needs healing.

The Fighter needs only worry about equipping herself.
A Druid/Ranger/Hunter/etc. has to worry about equipping both themselves and their companion - A dire tiger is a huge boon at level 7, but those higher level demons are going to laugh it's pounce right off if it can't get through that DR.

If animal companions/eidolons/etc are treated as "class features" (which, by all arguments, they are), then they obviously shouldn't be granting bonus wealth to their players - that would be unfair to everyone else, right?
However, by not granting them bonus wealth, their "class features" can quickly become ineffectual (and in the worst cases, simply a liability).

lemeres wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:
Jodokai wrote:
Falxu - No you still need Handle Animal, there's a FAQ.
Link? I don't see such a FAQ.

This FAQ. Right here. It is also the FAQ that generally restricts animals from grabbing manufactured weapons.

While I'll admit- for consistency's sake, its placement is wonky, but it is literally the second result when I googled "pathfinder animal companion 3 int". And it comes up very, very quickly in any rules forum you search for on this topic.

Animals remain as animals. So they need handle animal. Knowing language is useful since it lets you give more specific commands ("Go look for Timmy"), but it still needs guidance.

Anyway, handle animal is usually not that huge of a problem. With various bonuses given to you, you might be able to just ignore it completely around level 8 or so.

Apparently my Google doesn't like me as much as yours likes you. :/

Ty for link. :)

Jodokai wrote:
Falxu - No you still need Handle Animal, there's a FAQ.

Link? I don't see such a FAQ.

As far as I understand it, Int 3 isn't what lets an AC understand language - Int 3 is what allows the AC to place skill points anywhere you want, including Linguistics, which training then allows the AC to learn one language (of your choice) that it can then understand.
Because of the Linguistics rank.
Not because of the Int 3.

I'm admittedly kind of finding it hard to believe that the rule of "specific trumps general" applies in this case, as almost every Improved Familiar option comes with it's own alignment requirement text.
That makes the text of the feat completely unnecessary. :/

It may not apply to Tiny, but be for Diminutive and Fine, but I know it wasn't the errata for Climb/Swim, and that it was specifically talking about getting to choose for Attack rolls.

Ugh, wish I could find it. :/

I did the work, but somehow missed that it added up. >_<

Thanks for the clarification Avoron. :D

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

The feat itself says, "You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil)," however the accompanying table does not match what the Feat describes.

For example, an Almiraj is a Neutral creature, but the Table suggests you can be "Any" alignment.
If you can, as the Feat text suggests, be up to one step away on each alignment axis, then this makes sense.

However, whether "on each axis" means once on each, or just once period has been asked and gone unanswered (the question I found was 4+ years old with no FAQ reply.)

Additionally, this should hold true for all other Neutral options, but it doesn't. For example, the Paracletus Aeon is also Neutral, but it's alignment requirement is listed as "Neutral," not "All."

Furthermore, some creature descriptions suggest you must be a specific alignment to have that creature as a Familiar. For example, the Lyrakien Azata has the text: "A chaotic good 7th-level spellcaster can gain a lyrakien as a familiar if she has the Improved Familiar feat."
Does the specific of the Azata trump the General of the Feat?
Or can you be one step away (such as CG, NG, or CN)?
Or can you be one step away on each axis (which would then include N)?

Many discrepancies, no FAQed answers I can find.
Does clarification exist for this and I missed it, or does Paizo still need to address it?

She has 9 listed Skills, so if Fly doesn't have any skill ranks in it, and all her other Skills are maxed for her HD and count as proficient (except Spellcraft), then it comes out to 24.
That's still not meshing with Outsider Skill proficiencies, but I'll take it rather than beat my head against the wall over it. ^_^

Falxu wrote:

Fly = Class (3) + Skill Ranks (3) + Dex (4) + Size: Tiny (4) + Perfect Maneuverability (8)

This would seem to indicate that the Lyrakien does not have ranks in fly, meaning (4+4+8) should be 16, seems right?

I see Perform (any one) 11, which works out.

Not sure about the rest yet.

Forgot about Perfect Maneuverability providing a bonus!

Also, would probably help if I copy down the numbers correctly, hey? lol

Neo2151 wrote:
•Outsiders have Full BAB progression and, as a Tiny creature, the Lyrakien should have the choice of whether to use Strength or Dexterity for it's To-Hit. 3HD with a 19 Dex should place it's Slam attack at a +7, however it is listed at a +2. Why? How? I don't understand...

I know I've read this somewhere, but I don't remember if it applies to Tiny, and I can't find it regardless. So consider this question/concern nixed.

Still would love some help with Skills though. :D

I've read it somewhere and now I can't find it. :(
Ty for CMB/D reference. :)

Such as being allowed to choose between Dex or Str for attacks, CMB/D, etc.

The Fly and Perform skills are being particularly difficult.
With 3HD, there's no way I can see that a Lyrakien should be able to get:
+16 to Fly (+3 Skilled, +4 Dex, +3 Skill Points, +4 Size Bonus = 14... Where is that other +2 coming from??)

+16 to Perform (+3 Skilled, +5 Cha, +3 Skill Points = 11... Where is that other +5 coming from??)

And when I reverse engineer all of the listed Skills, with the assumption that every skill listed is treated as proficient, I end up with 34 Skill Ranks used, when they should only have 24 Ranks available (6+Int per HD with 3HD and a 14 Int is 24).

What are the specific rules surrounding creatures that are size Tiny or smaller and could I get a link to them please?

The PRD is incredibly unintuitive and I can't find them anywhere, save for the generic "size bonuses" table, which doesn't cover everything.

Improved Familiar is proving to be quite a pain! :)

Here are the Azata's stats. (2nd one down, after Brijidine.)

So, some of my problems:
•Outsiders have Full BAB progression and, as a Tiny creature, the Lyrakien should have the choice of whether to use Strength or Dexterity for it's To-Hit. 3HD with a 19 Dex should place it's Slam attack at a +7, however it is listed at a +2. Why? How? I don't understand...

•Outsiders have, "Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
Firstly, I assume the Outsider skill proficiencies and the Familiar skill proficiencies stack?
Secondly, I have no way of knowing what the bolded skills are, and the Lyrakien has more than 4 listed skills that do not generally belong to Outsiders or Azatas specifically. How can I know which one's are getting the +3 Prof bonus and which ones aren't?

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More and more reason to just ignore Paizo, never play in PFS, and game how I want.
Whoever gave the toddler the nerf bat and let them loose on the Paizo offices needs to have their head examined. :P

If there was some way to break out of the super-basic Elemental types, I could see this as a possibility.
But as long as a Druid's shapechanging is based on the spell, it has zero room to grow. :(

It's essentially: "Take what you already get at a very slightly accelerated access, then heavily restrict everything else."
Also, there is no "Elemental Form V" for level 12, which means you're basically losing a feature.

And while certain elemental forms can be great in specific situations, they're overall pretty lackluster compared to the variety of combat options you can get otherwise. (Spellcasters have no need for anything past a small Air elemental [save for water campaigns] so they hardly benefit at all, which is why I focus on "combat forms.")

And it's worth noting the sizes that elementals achieve when considering your companion. Small>Large is doable. Huge starts getting tricky. Gargantuan is all but impossible to adventure with. ;P

Matthew Downie wrote:

Elementalist Druid

Wild Shape (Su): At 4th level, an elementalist druid's wild shape ability functions at her druid level + 2 when taking on the form of an elemental. He can never wild shape into the form of a plant or animal.

Nature Bond: An elementalist druid who chooses a companion must select an elemental in place of an animal companion. At 1st level, an elementalist druid may call a Small elemental to his side. It increases in size as the elementalist druid gains levels, becoming Medium at 8th level, Large at 11th level, Huge at 14th level, Greater at 17th level, and Elder at 20th level.
If choosing a domain, the elementalist druid must choose from the Air, Earth, Fire, and Water domains.

That honestly sounds like a straight-up downgrade from a Core Druid.

How would an elemental archetype be overpowered when the core class itself already has the ability to Wildshape into Elemental forms?

The logic there is highly confusing. :/

It's fine. Don't let the sky fall here.
It's a rather short duration effect that requires multiple spell slots be expended and costs a really expensive material component every time you cast it.
Will you "nova" a single combat? Sure, with your low level spells - you know, the spells that, at the level you can cast these at, won't make or break a fight.

Honestly? A Rod of Quicken is more dangerous than these spells.

Well, I ask specifically about battlefield control because other options are either ineffective (blasting), risky (sos/d), or done better by a different class (summoning/buffing).

So what sorts of "small area" control spells are even available?
(As to some are good/bad for archers/melee, most groups [mine certainly] has both, so no matter what, someone's getting screwed. :( ).

A specific though about Grease: How is this a good spell for anyone, honestly, unless your goal is escape? If all goes according to plan, the enemies fall prone in the middle of the spell effect, so archers take a penalty to shoot them and melee can't close without subjecting themselves to the Grease. Seems like a lose/lose situation, no?

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I should clarify:
How do you work with spells like these without selfishly asking your entire party to gear specifically for spells that you may or may not actually prepare/cast that day.

Obviously there is gear that offsets such effects, but that's either expensive, or asking the party to give up a "big 6" item, or potentially both.
That's rough. :/

Secane wrote:
Pyrotechnics - "Everyone! Close your eyes!"

Pretty sure this doesn't work. The Smoke Cloud effect definitely not, but the Fireworks effect requires line of sight, not actual visibility. It'd be a really lenient GM, methinks, who would let that slide (and even if they did, what's to stop the enemy from doing the same as you blatantly call it out?)

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There are quite a few spells that always end up "green/blue" on any caster guide, and for good reason:
Obscuring Mist
Sleet Storm
Stinking Cloud
Black Tentacles

and so on and so fourth. But the number of spells like this that allow you to choose the targets can probably be counted on one hand with fingers left over (Horrid Wilting comes to mind for extremely-high-level play).

So, how do you control the battlefield without also controlling your allies? Sure, if you can take the first action in combat and if the foes are starting totally separated from the allies and if the space you're fighting in is large enough to not be entirely engulfed in the spell effect, then yes it's amazing as a tactic.
But that's a whole lot of "ifs."

Curious about opinions here.

So I'm retiring a Witch early because, as it turns out, Slumber Hexing all the melee brutes isn't exactly riveting gameplay, even if it is really powerful.

But our last encounter with said character was just a total beatdown - for them!
Our level 7 party consists of:
•Your stereotypical Invulnerable Rager Barbarian
•A ranged-focused Hunter with a "big cat" companion.
•A Sun/Healing Cleric of Sarenrae
•A rather vanilla Unchained Rogue
•And a Paladin focusing around shield and "aid other" techniques.

Our BBEG was a Night Hag riding around on an Undead Nightmare, with quite a few Black Skeletons serving as fodder.

It was quite a fun fight, and the party managed quite nicely (and with more than a few Str penalties thrown around... those darn skeles!) to overcome in the end, but wow! Never have I felt more useless as a character!
The Hag's SR never even mattered, as it was either flat-out immune to my effects, or it's save bonuses were strong enough to make the rolls almost an after-thought! And since most of what a Witch has to offer is SoS/D effects, my options were incredibly limited.

How do people overcome this? Monsters designed to be a real challenge tend to have all the defenses they need to ignore targeted spellcasters. What's a Witch to do?

(Mostly just curious to see what peoples' responses are - I'm bringing in a Admixture Evoker "God" Wizard in place of the Witch; no more uselessness here, although it IS rather boring knowing that there is only one viable avenue to play a character. :/ )

My Evoker needs a hobby, and building golems sound like a fun in-character things to do.
Until that price tag.
Until those skill requirements.
Depending on the golem, those *spell* requirements!

Has anyone gone down this road before, and if so, was it worth the effort?
Also, if it was, what golems are reasonable to go for? (Adamantine is obviously a pipe-dream, but Iron? Stone? What'cha think?)

Just wondering what the general consensus is about which metamagic feats are good enough to actually learn, and which ones are wasted as a feat but great to have as a Rod.

Okay, I see what it's saying now.
I was seriously over-thinking it! lol


If casting spontaneously, I can spend 1 point from my arcane reservoir to add a metamagic feat (that I know) to the spell without increasing it's casting time, but still using up the higher level spell slot? (This seems pretty straightforward.)

Alternatively, if casting a prepared spell that was already preped with metamagic, I can spend 1 point from my arcane reservoir to add another, different, metamagic feat effect (that I know) without changing it's level?
(ex: I prepare a Stilled Fireball as a 4th level spell. I can then spend 1 arcane point to make it a Stilled Quickened Fireball out of the 4th level slot?)
(This is less straightforward, but this seems to be what the ability is reading as.)

Do I have it right?

Witch/Shaman/Etc are like, the best spell lists for low-magic games. They just look awful compared to the "god-list" that is Wiz/Sor.

That handbook is *significantly* more helpful than the other ones I've read! Thanks for the share. :)

Ended up going with Deception. Thanks everyone!

None of the Patron choices really jump out at me as, "Yes, must have this one." So I'm looking for friendly suggestions.

For an idea of the character, it'll just be your straight-forward "Offensive Debuffing" NE Half-Elf Witch - No Archetypes or PrCs.

Reading up Viking Irishman's Witch Guide and half-elf says swapping out for Arcane Training "is almost a must."

But why?

Obviously I'd want Witch to be my chosen Favored Class. Arcane Training lets you "use spell trigger and spell completion items for their favored class as if one level higher," but when does that actually help? Doesn't having just a single level in the class cover all the "trigger and/or completion" requirements you might need?
When would I ever benefit from being treated as a level higher? Using a Staff is the only thing I can even think of, and that's a really minor benefit for the most part.

thegreenteagamer wrote:
Cleric spells are Oracle spells.

That's not entirely true. Some Oracle spells are not Cleric spells, and this spell is a Cleric spell without being an Oracle spell.

If Paizo intended you to just "know" that Oracles could have it because they listed Cleric, then they would do the same thing for Wiz/Sor, except they specifically list Sorcerer in addition to Wizard. They chose not to list Oracle with Cleric, and they usually do.

andreww wrote:
I am always curious why people recommend Aasimar for the life oracle. The half elf loses out on a +2 to a secondary stat but gets to pick the same revelation boosting FCB from Elf, can take Paragon Surge for spontaneous access to whatever removal you might need and can start taking bonus spells with the Human FCB when channelling for HP recovery stops being relevant or effective in the mid to high levels.

Paragon Surge is specifically not an Oracle Spell (for some reason). ml#_paragon-surge

I seem to have regressed a bit to a time where grapples were contested rolls. Whoops!

Still, forcing your opponent to waste their turn escaping a Pin is no small advantage.

Lemmy wrote:

It still annoys me that pretty much every creature with Grab is still better off grappling/releasing every round so that they can full attack.

How so?

Scenario 1:
R1 - Move up to Attack+Grab foe so it can't escape, dealing two hits worth of damage (one from your attack and one from Grab+a successful grapple check). Foe can't escape, so it opts to Full Attack you. Before the round ends, you Free-action Release the grapple.
R2 - Full Attack the foe+Grab on the last attack (which, considering iterative/secondary penalties, may have a greater miss chance, depending on attack method) so foe (hopefully) can't escape again. Foe again decides to Full Attack if it can't escape, or possibly escape if you missed your Grab.
R3 - Repeat R2, etc.

Scenario 2:
R1 - Move up to Attack+Grab foe so it can't escape, dealing two hits worth of damage (one from your attack and one from Grab+a successful grapple check). Foe can't escape, so it opts to Full Attack you. You do not Free-action drop the grapple.
R2 - You roll to maintain the Grapple with a +5 bonus, dealing one hit's worth of damage from Grab ability, and apply the Pinned with your maintain roll. Foe gains the Pinned condition, and is in serious trouble, so Foe attempts to escape, but likely fails because you still get that +5 bonus for being in control, and you deal another hit's worth of Grab damage.
R3 - You roll to maintain the Grapple with a +5 bonus, dealing another hit's worth of damage from Grab and a) if you have rope, may tie the Foe up and make them truly Helpless and may escort them to jail/steal their things/go full-on murderhobo/etc, or b) choose the Damage option and deal Damage + Grab damage. Foe remains helpless and keeps futilely attempting escape, hoping the dice roll lucky, but more likely fail because you're still rolling at +5. Roll fails and Foe continues to sob on the ground and take your gut punches, claw attacks, or, ya know, whatever...

Scenario 2 seems far superior. :)

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Matthew Downie wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:
There are tons of ways you could be grappling a foe that leave it's attack options totally open.
But, in a rather abstract way, it is understood that you are holding on to one of the forelimbs of your foe. Hence, while grappled, you cannot take actions that require the use of both hands.

How can that assumption be true when not everything has forelimbs?

Devilkiller wrote:
Do people feel that the damage from Grab on subsequent grapple checks is supposed to be in addition to any damage that check would normally impose? In other words, would you expect that a lion which grabs you with a Bite would do Bite damage if it pins you? If it selects the Damage action do you think it would do Bite damage twice or perhaps that it could inflict Claw and Bite damage (using the Claw for the Damage action since the Bite is busy maintaining the grapple).

Simply put? Yes.

The rules that Matthew Downie just restated are pretty clearly written. When you succeed at a grapple check, you deal damage as if you hit with the attack that initiated the grapple. And since everything involved in a grapple requires succeeding on a grapple check, then everything will allow for getting that extra damage, including the "Damage" grapple option.

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