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Wizard is more powerful.
Arcanist is better.
(And Sorcerer is now just inferior to Arcanist - Only to be played for Flavor.)


However, while the bonuses don't stack, Mage Armor does overlap regular armor against Incorporeal attacks.

For example:
Rogue A has an 18 Dex and wears a Chain Shirt. That gives him an AC of 18.
Rogue B has the same, but also has Mage Armor in effect. His AC is also only 18.

When an Orc attacks either Rogue A or B, the Rogue's AC is 18.
However, when a Shadow attacks Rogue A, it is against an AC of 14 because he bypasses the Chain Shirt armor. Against Rogue B, it's still an 18 because even though it bypasses the Chain Shirt, it doesn't bypass the Mage Armor.

So there we see the value of having Spellcraft in the party, but how is it beneficial on the non-Caster when the Caster could just be informing the party of his roll results?

Or is it just a matter of redundancy? (ie: The more people rolling, the more likely to get a successful roll?)

Except you don't need Spellcraft to ready an action to interrupt a casting - In fact, you have to decide to ready your action before you even know if a casting is going to happen, so how did it help here?

As for being able to tell if a caster is lying about what spell they're going to cast, sure, I suppose. I've never seen an enemy caster just blurting out strategy, even in an attempt to mislead, but sure, I guess?

And as for identifying magic items, you can't just roll a Spellcraft check and know what a magic thing does; you have to cast Detect Magic/Identify/Etc. as well, which is something a non-caster can't do.

I get that any class can *have* spellcraft ranked up, but without magic to actually back it up (specifically Detect Magic, although other spells can and do also apply), what is the point?

If a Lore Warden puts ranks in Spellcraft, what good did that actually do the character? Yes, you can identify spells as they are being cast, but you can't counter those spells, and you can't do anything to those spells once they are in place. You just get to know it's there, which you probably already knew since you just watched the caster cast a spell on him/herself.

I've seen people post that ranks in Know: Arcana and Spellcraft on their non-casters has helped them in the past.
Know:Arcana makes sense.
Spellcraft... I don't see how?

I recall in 3.X there was a splat book that included some feat options that made pairing different weapons actually somewhat attractive (I can't remember for the life of me which book though).

For instance, TWFing with an Axe/Knife combo. Or Longsword/Dirk. Etc.

Does *anything at all* exist like this in PF?

Starting a game and the GM has set some limitations:
Starting level is 3rd.
Wands, Potions, and Scrolls are all base value, but all other magical items cost 2x.
Wands start with 25 charges instead of 50.
3000g starting.

So obviously I'm masterworking all the things, and picking up some basic stuff, but that leaves a lot of gold burning a hole in my Inquisitor's pouch and I'm looking for ideas on things to spend it on.

Any tips are appreciated. :D

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Lemmy wrote:
Seriously... If they only wanted to simplify things, why nerf Rage Powers? And why not simplify other mechanics that are far more complex, such as Wildshape?

Absolutely. In a world where Wild Shape is a core class feature, the argument that "rage is 2 hard" is utterly bunk.

Since Channel Smite is much more easily utilized by Clerics, aren't they going to be just as good against a single-target undead though?

I mean, I know Warpriests will be better in combat in general with the faster self-buffing and the higher number of combat feats, but that's all general combat stuff.

I know a Sun/Glory Cleric will wreck some undead face, and am very familiar with said build.

However, I haven't touched a Warpriest yet, and I wanna know how they compare doing the same role.

Advice appreciated!

The problem is that the formula doesn't really work.
Look at the example of Hand of the Mage: How did it get that cost?
Cantrips are considered half the value of a 1st level spell, so the forumla should be (0.5[spell] x 2[CL] x 1800[Command Word] = 1800g).
Except it doesn't cost 1800g. It costs 900g and is crafted for 450g.

But there's nothing noted in the magic item crafting rules to allow for that drop in price.

The drawback for thrown weapons is their stats are underwhelming for melee and their range increment is super-low.

Any other drawbacks are entirely unnecessary (and start pushing into the "why must crossbows suck so hard?" realism territory).

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Spellcasters have no feat taxes. Quicken Spell can be taken without a single prereq.
Martials have all sorts of horrid feat taxes. Combat Expertise. Weapon Focus. Power Attack (even if it's a good feat, it still should *be* a feat). Weapon Finesse. Etc.
Adding more feat taxes to starve every non-Fighter martial even more than they're already feat-starved is cold-blooded.

Well, there's no room for Cha, cuz: As a melee fighter I need Str/Con, as a med armor class I need a halfway decent Dex, and as an Inquisitor I need Wis for obv reasons. So that leaves me with nothing left for Int/Cha.

•Skill Focus and/or Intimidating Prowess obviously helps but it ticks one (or two) feat(s) off.
•Power Attack is practically a requirement for melee and also happens to be a requirement for one of the actually nice Intimidate feats - Cornugon Smash.
•And, as a Power-Attacker with a Medium BAB, it's really hard to ignore Furious Focus.
•I'm a Dwarf. I don't *need* Steel Soul... But c'mon, yes I do. :)
•Weapon Focus is the worst feat in the history of "fun," but it's required for Dazzling Display, which are then both required for the *actual* nice feat: Shatter Defenses.

So that's what I'm looking at, at the moment. A total of 8 feats (if I only go with SF:Intimidate *or* Intimidating Prowess) which puts me at level 15 before I even finish building my "one-trick-pony" combat style.

Just kinda depressing seeing how it'll take an entire adventuring career to build, assuming the game even gets to level 15, which it most likely won't even come close to. :P

Thoughts? Opinions?
I'm thinking Tetori wins but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

Don't mind me, just sulking out loud at how many feats my Dwarven Inquisitor needs.


Getting more spells per level and a bit earlier is easily made up for for the SERIOUSLY superior casting style of the Arcanist.
Always having the right tool for the job is better than having twice as many of the wrong tool.

That said, Staff-like Wand is amazeballs and it single-handedly convinced me to roll Wiz instead of Arc. ;)

Chess Pwn wrote:
it's the first half of the comparison between a LV 10 Barb and a LV 10 Bard

To what end? To see which one TWFs better? The Barbarian does. Every time. lol

For whatever reason, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around these classes, as in "how they'll play" rather than "what they are."

Could I possibly get a 1 or 2 line real brief explanation on the playstyles of each Occult class? I'd really appreciate it. :D

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DM_Blake wrote:
Devils are about as inclined to be deceitful (at least regarding their core purpose of leading mortals into damnation) as fire elementals are inclined to be wet. They CANNOT be deceitful because they are MADE OF LAW, the same way a fire elemental is made of fire. Exactly the same way.

I gotta disagree with you wholeheartedly on this one.

Lawful =/= Honest.
Lawful means they live by strict rules and will not go against them (being Lawful by nature instead of by choice makes this especially true for L outsiders like Devils).

So, for example, if the code that Devils live by is something like, "You must trick and deceive mortals so that they give their souls willingly and never forcefully take them," that means that trickery and illusion and what not are going to be 2nd nature to said Devils.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Guru-Meditation wrote:

Can we please compare Level 5, or if you want a longer shot, level 10 builds.

Because Level 10 is a level that can be expected to be reached, and still be played.

Level 20 is a pure hypothetical comparison, with my experience, no relevance to anything whatsoever, as even if you reach it (which about 95% of all campaigns simply dont), its mostly for one or two fights before the campaign ends then.

Level 10 is what you can aspire to, and expect to get some mileage out.

But a build needs to have come together at level 5, and feel like you are playing yor build, and not a proto-caterpillar that will someday hatch into your prefered build.

Level 20 theoretical aircastle calculations have no informational value about how a build will actually perform in play!

Alright, let's do a level 10 build, 2 traits, average hit dice, on-the-nose WBL, and 20-point buy.

Human Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 10
Strength 18 + 2 = 20 [22]
Dexterity 12 [14]
Constitution 14 + 2 = 16 [18]
Intelligence 8
Wisdom 12
Charisma 7

Traits: Armor Expert, Reactionary
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Critical (Nodachi), Endurance, Diehard, Raging Vitality
Rage Powers: Superstition, Lesser Beast Totem, Beast Totem, Greater Beast Totem, Witch Hunter
FCB: Racial (Superstition)

Initiative +4
HP 100 base (~130 with Rage)
AC 21 (Remains the same during Rage)
DR 5/-, DR 10/Nonlethal; Resistance 3/Fire
Rage (26 Rounds)

Skills: Perception (MAX), Survival (MAX), Sense Motive (MAX)

Saving Throws: Fortitude 13 (16 while Raging, 23 versus Spells/Supernatural Abilities), Reflex 7 (14 versus Spells/Supernatural Abilities), Will 6 (8 while Raging, 13 versus Spells/Supernatural Abilities)

Gear: +2 Furious Nodachi (18,360 Gold), +1 Mithril Breastplate (5,350 Gold), Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000 Gold), Belt of Physical Perfection +2 (16,000), Boots of Speed (12,000 Gold), Quick Runner's Shirt (1,000 Gold) Ring of Protection +1 (2,000 Gold), Amulet of Natural Armor...

This is a weird build for a Bard thread. ;)

Seems like a fun concept, but in practice would I be stretching myself too thin?

Kitty In A Fishbowl wrote:

1)Replacing the headband i feel it will hurt, my DC are important to me, as the interactions i could get roleplaying (I'm the party face).

2)I could ask to my cleric to cast some spell that gives chance of missing on me...will that solve the problem?

3)Shield doesn't convince me because of the duration of the spell; Magic Armour has a great duration and it gives +4 AC too.
Shouldn't i get a wand of that spell instead of burning a spell known slot?

4)Is Web a weak spell for my level? In that case i could swap it for Mirror Image.
Invisibility with Glitterdust could be a nice shot, because anyway the summoner already have Invisibility, and i think he could cast that on me.

5a)Does Pages of Spell Knowledge let me learn a spell from another source than mine (arcane) or "just" (and i'm not meaning it's a poor option) arcane ones?
5b)Does Mnemonic Vestment works with Pages of Spell K.? If i have understood this item doesn't consume the scroll or so, using it, am i wrong?

Answers in order! ;)

1- Replacing the headband with a lower level version does hurt some things obviously, but with such little gold to spend at your level (you're basically a level behind Wealth By Level recommendations), it's just a matter of prioritizing.
If you're happy spending the 36k gold for the full +6, then go for it. But downgrading to a +4 saves you 16k gold you can spend elsewhere. In the end, you just gotta answer this one for yourself. ;)

2- In place of a Mirror Image? No. Clerics have some great defensive spell options, but Mirror Image is one the best personal physical defense spell in the game (others being things like Greater Invisibility or Prismatic Sphere, basically Arcane spells that the Cleric likely won't have access to).
The Cleric absolutely can cover things like Communal Resist Energy though.

3- You're totally right on Shield. :) Learn Mage Armor and keep a wand of Shield.

4- Web is a fantastic spell at lower levels, but as you gain levels, you gain better options, like Create Pit and Black Tentacles.
It's worth it to swap out Web for something else, IMO.

5a- No, you can only learn spells that are on your list (Sorcerer/Wizard arcane spells for you, Cleric/Oracle spells for an Oracle, Bard spells for a Bard, etc.) with Pages.
5b- The Mnemonic Vestments work with any written spell (scrolls, spellbooks, etc) that is on your spell list (Sorcerer/Wizard) and of the same level or lower as the slot you use to cast it.
I'm sure technically you could use it to cast from a Page of Spell Knowledge, but that would just be a waste of the Vestment's usage, because the Page of Spell Knowledge just adds that spell to your list of Spells Known. :)

Fireball is a must. Lightning bolt is harder to make work since it's a line effect and you'll have a hard time getting enough targets to make it worth the cast. Having both tends to be a waste, since they're both designed to do the same thing but Fireball does it better.

Damage spells are great for a caster, so don't let the haters get you down. ;)
When they say blasting is bad, that's against the big bad evil guy. You don't drop a fireball on the boss - you drop it on his goons.

Knowing good positioning is great, but sometimes there just isn't that option, which is where spells like Expedious Retreat or Fly or Dimension Door really come in handy (You're not wrong about a dispelled Fly - It's a really really good spell to take, but you shouldn't take it if you don't have Featherfall too!)

You could bring your Headband down from a +6 to a +4 and not notice a huge difference, then in a few levels when you have substantially more wealth, pick up the extra +2 again.

Pages of Spell Knowledge are incredibly worth the price, because your weakness as a Sorcerer is that you might not "know" the spell you need, and these pages go a long way in offsetting that weakness. It can get expensive fast though, so generally keep only a few and make sure the spells you get them for are really solid spells.

And finally, the Mnemonic Vestment lets you use your own spell slot to cast a spell from a written item, like a scroll. You don't have to create the item, you can buy it in town, or find it in your loot after an adventure.
It's really helpful for things you want to keep handy but don't want to blow a "spell known" on. Something like a scroll of Remove Curse - you can buy the scroll and use the Vestment to cast the scroll with your spell slot, which means you get the spell effect and get to keep the scroll for next time, when normally the scroll would be "used up" afterwards. :)

For starters, what Sorcerer Bloodline did you go with?
Otherwise, besides buying up items, I'd suggest replacing either Fireball or Lightning bolt with something else (Haste/Slow are great options, IMO.) Having one is practically a must, but having both is kind of a waste.

Lemmy wrote:

Use 3pp or homebrew... I humbly suggest this.

...And this, for extra fun (falchions are boring after 300 characters using them). ;)

The Weapon Master Handbook is pretty nice too.

Just out of curiosity, what Will saves *aren't* covered by your version of Bravery? (ie: why not just give full Will bonus and scrap Bravery?)

There has been a lot of general roleplay advice, as well as advice about not being afraid to roleplay an enjoyment of an activity you aren't any good at. The Fighter who likes to cook but isn't really very good at it, for example.

I should clarify that my concern was exactly the opposite: How to be a Fighter that is *actually good* at something other than just fighting.
The Fighter who likes to cook and is very good at it, enough that maybe it's a retirement option after adventuring life is over.

That said, I think Background Skills basically cover this need perfectly. Thanks to those who pointed them out!

Fighters are notorious as being good at dealing damage and nothing else, and personally I've found that when playing a Fighter, once my build is finished, I no longer have anything to look forward to.
The lack of out-of-combat abilities/skill points makes having any real non-combat hobbies almost impossible.

The cop-out answer is always "roleplay" but that doesn't take into consideration that your character sheet is there to tell you what your strengths and weaknesses are, and when all of your strengths rely on killing something, it leaves a pretty big hole in the potential for believable roleplay.

Maybe I really enjoy cooking?
Well, I would if I could afford to put any points into Craft or Profession, but being Int-low and having only 2 skill points per level means I'm tapped out once the "adventure-necessary" skills are taken.

Any tips/tricks/hints/experience to give?

Like, how does this pregnancy work??
Okay, so spell effects wear off! The Fey is going to revert back to Tiny, and she'll still be pregnant with Medium-sized child.

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thejeff wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
thejeff wrote:
It's not actually RAW as far as I can tell that the soul is "ripped from their final resting place and forced back". Other than in a few special cases, where the soul

Well it actually is.

I mean, if you have been dead for 500 years, and then your corpse is animated...

What happened during that 500 years?

Yeah, animating dead is damn evil.

Except that, as far as I can tell, there is no RAW saying your soul is actually used. Just that it prevents you from being raised. One interpretation is that your soul is tied to the undead body. It could simply be interfering in some other fashion.

Isn't it obvious why Resurrection magic doesn't work? Your body is occupied by whatever force (RAW seems to say Negative Energy) is animating your meat bag!

Someone casts a Raise Dead. Your soul flies down to it's body... and can't get back in, because Neg Energy hung an ethereal sign around your neck that says, "Occupado."

Which is why you have to destroy undead before you can resurrect them: You gotta evict the current tenants first!

Furthermore, if the soul is being trapped inside it's own body... to fuel it's unlife... then why isn't it just alive again? Original body + original soul = Vampire? Huh?
And even if you go with that, what is making the original soul evil all of a sudden? The Neg Energy? No, that can't be it because Negative Energy is specifically not-evil (it's neutral, just like Positive Energy or Fire, etc.)

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Ashiel wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
No matter what the initial goal or justfication may be... you simply can't exist beyond your alotted span without a price. And frequently much of that price is paid by the innocent.

The price of becoming a Mummy, which is a popular lich alternative for clerics and such, is holy oils, blessed linens, fragrant flowers, and so forth. In fact, it's very holy, sacred, and noble.

And then "Evil" is slapped on you because screw everyone.

Adding to this, Wizards who reach level 20 and take the Immortality Arcane Discovery don't get slapped with a "you must be Evil now" sticker.

So... the "skirting life span" theory just doesn't hold any weight.

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If your players are trying to lawyer their way out of a roll, don't forget you can just out-lawyer them:

HWalsh wrote:

PCs are asked to turn over an item they got in a dungeon and one responds with, "We didn't find the (insert here)!"

"Roll a Bluff check."

"Well I'm not lying, we didn't find it, we were given it by the ghost of the high priest. So its not a lie."

"Well, the ghost was in the dungeon, and you found the item in it's possession. So if you wanna play with technicalities, you absolutely did 'find' the item in the dungeon, so roll your bluff."

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Atarlost wrote:
And in less time since depending on the time of day it may take them as little as 8 hours to get their spells back instead of having to wait the full 24 hours for the headband bonus to count as permanent.

Getting your spell slots back for the day requires 8 hours of rest and a full day to pass.

You don't get slots back every time you rest for 8 hours. (See the text of Ring of Sustenance if you don't believe.)

Staying relevant against higher encounters requires wealth. No class has the built-in tools to survive encounters designed to be a challenge after a certain threshold (especially at higher levels).
Martials need magical weapons and protections.
Casters need magical protections and ways to boost their spell's chances of successfully landing.
Everyone needs healing.

The Fighter needs only worry about equipping herself.
A Druid/Ranger/Hunter/etc. has to worry about equipping both themselves and their companion - A dire tiger is a huge boon at level 7, but those higher level demons are going to laugh it's pounce right off if it can't get through that DR.

If animal companions/eidolons/etc are treated as "class features" (which, by all arguments, they are), then they obviously shouldn't be granting bonus wealth to their players - that would be unfair to everyone else, right?
However, by not granting them bonus wealth, their "class features" can quickly become ineffectual (and in the worst cases, simply a liability).

lemeres wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:
Jodokai wrote:
Falxu - No you still need Handle Animal, there's a FAQ.
Link? I don't see such a FAQ.

This FAQ. Right here. It is also the FAQ that generally restricts animals from grabbing manufactured weapons.

While I'll admit- for consistency's sake, its placement is wonky, but it is literally the second result when I googled "pathfinder animal companion 3 int". And it comes up very, very quickly in any rules forum you search for on this topic.

Animals remain as animals. So they need handle animal. Knowing language is useful since it lets you give more specific commands ("Go look for Timmy"), but it still needs guidance.

Anyway, handle animal is usually not that huge of a problem. With various bonuses given to you, you might be able to just ignore it completely around level 8 or so.

Apparently my Google doesn't like me as much as yours likes you. :/

Ty for link. :)

Jodokai wrote:
Falxu - No you still need Handle Animal, there's a FAQ.

Link? I don't see such a FAQ.

As far as I understand it, Int 3 isn't what lets an AC understand language - Int 3 is what allows the AC to place skill points anywhere you want, including Linguistics, which training then allows the AC to learn one language (of your choice) that it can then understand.
Because of the Linguistics rank.
Not because of the Int 3.

I'm admittedly kind of finding it hard to believe that the rule of "specific trumps general" applies in this case, as almost every Improved Familiar option comes with it's own alignment requirement text.
That makes the text of the feat completely unnecessary. :/

It may not apply to Tiny, but be for Diminutive and Fine, but I know it wasn't the errata for Climb/Swim, and that it was specifically talking about getting to choose for Attack rolls.

Ugh, wish I could find it. :/

I did the work, but somehow missed that it added up. >_<

Thanks for the clarification Avoron. :D

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

The feat itself says, "You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil)," however the accompanying table does not match what the Feat describes.

For example, an Almiraj is a Neutral creature, but the Table suggests you can be "Any" alignment.
If you can, as the Feat text suggests, be up to one step away on each alignment axis, then this makes sense.

However, whether "on each axis" means once on each, or just once period has been asked and gone unanswered (the question I found was 4+ years old with no FAQ reply.)

Additionally, this should hold true for all other Neutral options, but it doesn't. For example, the Paracletus Aeon is also Neutral, but it's alignment requirement is listed as "Neutral," not "All."

Furthermore, some creature descriptions suggest you must be a specific alignment to have that creature as a Familiar. For example, the Lyrakien Azata has the text: "A chaotic good 7th-level spellcaster can gain a lyrakien as a familiar if she has the Improved Familiar feat."
Does the specific of the Azata trump the General of the Feat?
Or can you be one step away (such as CG, NG, or CN)?
Or can you be one step away on each axis (which would then include N)?

Many discrepancies, no FAQed answers I can find.
Does clarification exist for this and I missed it, or does Paizo still need to address it?

She has 9 listed Skills, so if Fly doesn't have any skill ranks in it, and all her other Skills are maxed for her HD and count as proficient (except Spellcraft), then it comes out to 24.
That's still not meshing with Outsider Skill proficiencies, but I'll take it rather than beat my head against the wall over it. ^_^

Falxu wrote:

Fly = Class (3) + Skill Ranks (3) + Dex (4) + Size: Tiny (4) + Perfect Maneuverability (8)

This would seem to indicate that the Lyrakien does not have ranks in fly, meaning (4+4+8) should be 16, seems right?

I see Perform (any one) 11, which works out.

Not sure about the rest yet.

Forgot about Perfect Maneuverability providing a bonus!

Also, would probably help if I copy down the numbers correctly, hey? lol

Neo2151 wrote:
•Outsiders have Full BAB progression and, as a Tiny creature, the Lyrakien should have the choice of whether to use Strength or Dexterity for it's To-Hit. 3HD with a 19 Dex should place it's Slam attack at a +7, however it is listed at a +2. Why? How? I don't understand...

I know I've read this somewhere, but I don't remember if it applies to Tiny, and I can't find it regardless. So consider this question/concern nixed.

Still would love some help with Skills though. :D

I've read it somewhere and now I can't find it. :(
Ty for CMB/D reference. :)

Such as being allowed to choose between Dex or Str for attacks, CMB/D, etc.

The Fly and Perform skills are being particularly difficult.
With 3HD, there's no way I can see that a Lyrakien should be able to get:
+16 to Fly (+3 Skilled, +4 Dex, +3 Skill Points, +4 Size Bonus = 14... Where is that other +2 coming from??)

+16 to Perform (+3 Skilled, +5 Cha, +3 Skill Points = 11... Where is that other +5 coming from??)

And when I reverse engineer all of the listed Skills, with the assumption that every skill listed is treated as proficient, I end up with 34 Skill Ranks used, when they should only have 24 Ranks available (6+Int per HD with 3HD and a 14 Int is 24).

What are the specific rules surrounding creatures that are size Tiny or smaller and could I get a link to them please?

The PRD is incredibly unintuitive and I can't find them anywhere, save for the generic "size bonuses" table, which doesn't cover everything.

Improved Familiar is proving to be quite a pain! :)

Here are the Azata's stats. (2nd one down, after Brijidine.)

So, some of my problems:
•Outsiders have Full BAB progression and, as a Tiny creature, the Lyrakien should have the choice of whether to use Strength or Dexterity for it's To-Hit. 3HD with a 19 Dex should place it's Slam attack at a +7, however it is listed at a +2. Why? How? I don't understand...

•Outsiders have, "Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
Firstly, I assume the Outsider skill proficiencies and the Familiar skill proficiencies stack?
Secondly, I have no way of knowing what the bolded skills are, and the Lyrakien has more than 4 listed skills that do not generally belong to Outsiders or Azatas specifically. How can I know which one's are getting the +3 Prof bonus and which ones aren't?

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More and more reason to just ignore Paizo, never play in PFS, and game how I want.
Whoever gave the toddler the nerf bat and let them loose on the Paizo offices needs to have their head examined. :P

If there was some way to break out of the super-basic Elemental types, I could see this as a possibility.
But as long as a Druid's shapechanging is based on the spell, it has zero room to grow. :(

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