How about instead of being a binary on an off thing, it is gradual, let's say for example, a Paladin has done something to anger or displease his/her god, but the god doesn't want to lose a Paladin, so in order to let the Paladin know he/she is not acting Paladin-ish he/she suffers power incontinence, say a spell fizzles when it shouldn't, smites fail but are still consumed etc. Would add a bit of versimilitude to the game. If the Paladin keeps doing "evil" stuff then their contract is terminated - so to speak. If the Paladin "fixes" whatever it was doing wrong, then the power incontinence stops.
I agree 100% with your statement, It appears that the forum boards are still populated by Paladin haters :S
Well, this story is not mine, it was from a previous DM my current group of friends had to bear with, I'll keep it short.
They encountered some mysterious knights with some abbreviated letters in their armor, needless to say, they started dying one by one once they interacted with them, no saving rolls, no attacks, no nothing. My friend who told me this managed to make out one of the plates which had F.M. (Famine Knight), so he threw a piece of food at him.
The DM said to him; "The Famine Knight leaves, but you die in the process"
Needless to say they had a killer DM, so they were weary of me at first thinking I would do the same, needless to say, they liked my campaign a lot since I gave them flexibility ;p
At lower levels you could have more armor than a martial character, with a dex of 14, mage armor and shield, you can have an armor class of 20! I don't think many monsters have that much hit at lower levels, so the squishy spellcaster is a myth, at least until monsters start getting more hit bonuses.
I think you can do many of the old and new spells with Suggestion alone, think about it:
Compassionate Ally - suggestion that the enemy should help this pathetic creature.
Unnatural Lust - suggestion that target looks rather sexy and should smother it a bit.
Oppressive boredom - suggestion that you are extremely bored (or something to that effect).
Charm Anything - suggestion that your allies are plotting against you, help use defeat them.
Divine spells are granted by dieties.
Arcane spells are learned via reasoning (wizards), or innate (sorcerer, bards, summoners etc.)
No matter the source, arcane or divine, the end result is about the same, they are all still spells.
Think of spells as art styles, varied, yet, they are all art :)
This is the reason you can use counterspell without considering the origin of the spell, and so forth. Like a divine haste, can still counter and dispel an arcane slow.
Master Summoner> all, no seriously, their summon monster spell-like gives them lots of versatility, add the 1 minute per summoner level duration and standard action to summon, and you have a scary summoner.
Of course, your DM has ways around it, banishment, protection spells, mass dispel magic etc. etc.
If you think that one is awful, go take a look at the Aasimar Purifier (Oracle).
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Yeah that seems good too, the problem, as someone else mentioned, is that metamagic without level adjustments is TOO GOOD, but as is, they are a pain to use without ways to reduce the cost with the traits and spell perfection.
Getting a middle-of-the-road effect is the hard part...
How about an alternate rule or feat that allows you to apply metamagic effects without increasing the spell level by using other spell slots or prepared spells that lets you use the spell level to pay for the level increase?
So for example, want to maximize a fireball at level 5? then waste 2 slots of fireball (1 for casting, and 1 to pay the cost of the +3 maximize feat). A maximized fireball at level 5 would deal 30 damage without counting energy resistance, evasion and saves.
With this feature or feat, you could apply metamagic to a spell early on, but you couldn't do it for extended fights anyways, since you are burning spells slots like crazy.
Also, you cannot apply combinations of metamagic that would increase the spell level beyond 9th (as using the standard method), and can sacrifice multiple spells to reduce the cost further (but not lower than 0).
So in keeping with the example above you could sacrifice 3 1st level spells, or two 1st level spells and a 2nd level spell, or a 3rd level spell.
You gain the elemental attribute which gives you immunity to lots of things, including critical hits and/or sneak attacks, you can heal yourself as a move action, or heal other allies that move to you once per turn if you so desire, you also gain the ability to hurt undead in all sorts of ways.
That's it, nothing more is gained.
The "resembling a golden-white elemental" is just fluff for a holy elemental (well considering everything has an elemental, a holy elemental isn't that far off)
I'd just like to mention, Ashiel, that while I wholeheartedly share your view of summoning, binding, and possibly other spells with the [Evil] descriptor, I've found that the one area where Pathfinder seems to be rather narrow-minded is that repeatedly casting spells with the [Evil] descriptor makes you evil, regardless of what you do with that spell. I actually debated James Jacobs over this about Infernal Healing and Paladins (specifically an example of a Paladin with no healing left but a scroll of Infernal Healing and a dying child), and he was unwavering on the issue, which I always found somewhat absurd.
Yeah I find that alignment changing rule to be silly, I always argue that ACTIONS taken with the spell determines the "Alignment". My classic example; Fireball, has no alignment, but take in to account the action of casting fireball to defend a town against bandits, vs. the action of burning innocent bystanders, because you got "bored".
I don't know about you, but to me being a coward is someone who is constantly running away, or trembling in fear, doing no actions, if all you do is run away or don't even cast spells (on yourself or others) then that is cowardice, buffing yourself while still providing support to the party somehow is not cowardice.
I really see no issue how Ravindork is playing his character.
You want to nerf something that is already sub-par at best?
Whoa whoa whoa so if you min/max a Tian Bard 1/Magi X with Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage on a Shocking Grasp then you have a Level 0 pseudo "cantrip" doing 10d6??? Im smelling the scent of cheese or overlooking something so now im interested =D
You can't lower the spell level using this method, if you reduced it below 0, it becomes 0.
Or when you have an inseparable couple which one of them is a pleasure to play along, but the other is a damned deadweight load, then proceeds to play WoW, WITHOUT headsets, and you get *the look* because you had the nerves of telling him to use some damned headsets!
Umbral Reaver wrote:
My only gripe with prepared versus spontaneous is the delayed spell access, the other cons are more bearable.
1. No, you don't threaten with it unless you have the whip feat (and then it's only 5 feet of threatening)
2. A scorpion whip counts as whips for proficiencies and the like (think of it as a way improved whip, its even light, so you can wield two with improved two-weapon fighting at -2 penalty).
3. I think so
Antagonize isn't that broken since you have to use a standard action to use it, meaning, you can't even attack, is language dependant, is a mind effect and worst of all, it only works once a day per target, some people have overrated that feat way too much, granted it was broken with the-next-to-impossible-save, which has been errata'ed.
Sounds like fair game to me, do bards learn heal? (well if not, just copy a witch's heal and be done with it)
Chaotic evil people usually (but not always) work together via a coercing powerful leader, if the powerful leader is removed by any means, it usually breaks a war to see who can regain control, based on that information, is the dominated one the leader or a follower? if the dominated is not the leader, hence he is not powerful enough, he might fear hurting his leader, and thus the leader would hurt him back in return.
That's all I can muster.