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Elf Archer

Navarion's page

221 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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thejeff wrote:
That it was inspired by Les Mis doesn't mean it was meant to be exactly Les Mis. Les Mis may have led to "We should do revolutionary France", which led to Galt.

Les Miserables would be more postrevolution as far as I can tell, but maybe it was the the reason for including something France-like and then someone thought that the revolution would be more interesting.

prosfilaes wrote:
You changed two important details; instead of (white) humans, hobbits, elves and dwarves, you now have Nubians. And instead of orcs who could walk around the real world on Halloween or at a con no problem, you have giants who are distinctly inhuman.

You only asked for the good races to be dark-skinned. The only good race in my idea are black humans. You asked for the villains to be pale-skinned, that's also satisfied (and I wouldn't have a problem with Transylvanian vampires, Viking plunderers or whatever either). Tolkien originally wanted to create myths for England, so obviously people in Middle Earth looked like Englishmen.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

That would be an instant buy for me. The whole lack of templates (and especially half-dragons) made me abandon D&D 4E, and a few days ago I looked at Darken by Kate Ashwin again and really started missing the good old dragon/humanoid hybrids. The advanced race guide wasn't much help unfortunately.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:
To be honest, we should get the rest of the world to just ignore NK. Completely ignore, no aid, no communications, no 'commerce,' nothing.
Its a modern day holocaust you're ignoring there.

As I already wrote, you will not get anyone with the power to do something to care. Unless North Korea starts expanding or they find huge deposits of oil, diamonds or rare earths that NK doesn't want to share peacefully nothing will happen.

Nothing will happen. Unlike Nazi Germany North Korea is only rattling its sabre but not actually threatening anyone the West or East care about and they don't have anything worth occupying them for. Violations of human rights have never sparked a war, they only were excuses.

Just throwing something in here: Who wears his magic items permanently? People have to bath sometimes, maybe don't want to sleep in armor regardless which stats it boosts, use a disguise, wear fine clothes for the duke's dinner etc. If you interpret the rule like that you will almost never have a permanent ability score bonus, unless you roleplay like killstealrovr9000 from WoW.

I would interpret "Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses." as the bonus being counted as permanent as long as it's duration may exceed 24 hours. If you put on a belt of giant's strength the bonus is permanent until dispelled (namely taking off the belt) so it's a permanent bonus. Otherwise you better don't use it to hold your pants in place or you nerf yourself by going to the toilet.:D

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If I learned anything from playing Skyrim it's that the easiest way to fix any power problem rogues might have is simply removing the 30 ft. range limit on sneak attack. :D

The gestalt rules specifically forbid eldritch knight, mystic theurge and arcane trickster.

Unless your GM is out to slaughter the party you should do what you are most comfortable with. If you want a swordmaster who can even hold his own in an antimagic field and only want to enhance it with a few flashy spells fighter is for you. If you want to go nuts on the magical side wizard or that sorcerer bloodline that lets you cast with int are best.

I guess that's a friendly nudge to get you to use skill points to learn the language and take appropriate feats. It's a bit strange that in Pathfinder there's no option for having 3 starting languages, not even in the Advanced Race Guide.

The linothorax is another headache. According to this guy it offered the same protection as 2mm of bronze armor at 1/3 of the weight. Which, professor or not, doesn't explain why richer hoplites invested into a bronze breastplate if it only weighted them down. Maybe I would go with hide armor.
You're probably right with the pectorals, even though I wonder if the straps shown on the pictures would also provide a bit of extra protection, One seems to be covered with metal, the other at least studded. Strangely people who make them today don't think of that....


That's interesting, was there any type of armor that was considered inferior to it? When I look at it I kind of have the feeling that I would rather wear boiled leather around most of my torso.

Thanks for the armor stats, would you make it medium armor?
Concerning the feat I had up to know thought to just use the phalanx soldier archetype for hoplites.

@ mplindustries

Well, this site calls them pectoral or simple breastplate, even though I would agree about the stats. It kind of looks like they didn't expect people trying not to hit it...O_o

Hello, I'm currently collecting ideas for a setting that is based more on antiquity than on the Middle Ages and while looking at pictures of armor from that time I wonder what it would be in Pathfinder terms.

I always considered the armor of wealthy hoplites breastplates, but according to Ultimate Equipment those don't protect the back.
Also, what would this be then?

I guess the rest would fall under everything from quilted cloth over hide and the various lamellar armors to scale mail, but those two are giving me headaches.

Pendagast wrote:
Not really sure what the actual goal of the oracle class was when it came out, the favore soul was a good frame work to start from, instead there are features here in the oracle that seem more witchy than the witch.

Maybe you should say goodbye to the idea that the oracle is the new favored soul because of spontaneous casting. The oracle is the high fantasy version of the Pythia, Teiresias, Cassandra (really, the only reason that there is no "no one believes you"-curse is that it simply could not stand up to meta-gaming players) etc. If you want a favoured soul the oracle will sorely disappoint you, it is meant for completely different character concepts.

Edit: There is a 3rd party PDF that could interest you. It has a magus archetype with access to sorcerer bloodlines. Magus with celestial bloodline might be closer to what you are looking for.

Hello, I'm working on a custom race for a homebrew setting, fey progenitors of the elves who have mostly withdrawn from the material plane since those who later became known as "drow" made sure that there are plenty bad people with cold iron blades around. So far the only way to depict that was giving them DR/cold iron which is expensive and makes them look bad. (Really, they leave the material plane because of weapons who hurt them like normal weapons hurt every other living being? D'awww let's play the world's saddest song on the world's smallest violin.)
Now the mythic playtest rules have exactly what I would need.

Material Weakness: Select cold iron, silver, or wood.
Weapons made primarily from the selected material
automatically confirm all critical hits against you and
the critical multiplier is increased by 1, to a maximum
of ×4. If you ever gain damage reduction, no matter
the source, weapons made primarily from the selected
material bypass that damage reduction.

I'm a bit unsure how the race point cost should look. The closest thing would probably be elemental vulnerability a -2 RP, but the mythic equivalent looks a lot worse, so I'm thinking about -3 or even -4....

I'm pretty sure that you would prefer to keep your books separated but reading the test pdf immediately made me think about a tiny expansion to the race building rules. In fact that would be the best place for some of the mythic flaws like material weakness. Having race point cost for those and for a very low-powered mythic ability (one daily use of mythic power to add 1d6 to a d20 roll, converts to an additional daily use of mythic power if the character actually gains mythic tiers) would be great.

Damn it, that guy is into complicated genetics. I once made rules for Elf/Orc-Hybrids for 11 RP.

-0 Humanoid (elf, orc)
-0 Normal movement speed
-0 Standard Language Array. As elves.
-2 Flexible modifiers (+2 Str, +2 Dex)
-2 Orc Ferocity
-2 Elven Immunities
-2 Skill bonus (Perception)
-1 Low-light vision
-2 Darkvision 60 ft.

No idea how I would build 25% humanity in there.

Thanks for putting it up as an update. Sorry that my posts are so rare but at the moment my RL is running amok.

gamer-printer wrote:
As far as why anyone would want to live in Kaidan. Aside from being a beautiful land, the people don't really have a choice. Emmigration is not a policy promoted by the empire, even exiles are kept on a particular island within the archipelago. And of course once death occurs to any inhabitants, they are bound into the reincarnation cycle. So even if they gain some method to escape the cursed islands in the next life, at death, they will be back...

O_o That is the absolutely cruelest thing so far. However, personally I would houserule that once you are away from Kaidan powerful magic can break that bond (Wish or Miracle).

By the way, while following the Bones Kickstarter I found an interesting website. Let's prove it wrong!

Hehe, instantly reminded me of this picture. Sith are Space Fantasy-Drow.

Okay, first of all I just told my friend about your description of Kaidan's horrible horror features and he complained bitterly (I'm exaggerating a bit) that it's not a Kickstarter Update, since he's not on the Paizo message boards.

On the 1st of September there will be just 16 days left. I really hope it takes off then.

Hellooooooooo? Anybody still alive in here? It seems the pledged amount is slowly going backwards.

TheSideKick wrote:
because they function in those alignments, if you want abilities with flexability then you get an inquisitor or oracle, why dont YOU get that?

3.X had lawful good paladins, a prestige class for lawful evil, neutral evil and chaotic evil people with evil paladin powers in the core rules, a prestige class for chaotic good people with paladin powers in the expansion for religious classes and a book with alternate rules for chaotic good, lawful evil and chaotic evil paladin base classes. I am also very sure that there was material on lawful neutral, chaotic neutral and true neutral paladins, but I don't remember in which book or magazine. Now please tell me where you get the idea to state as a fact that paladins and anti-paladins only function with lawful good and chaotic evil alignments. And also how that explains the one-way switch route.

Humphrey Boggard wrote:
Also, if you're running a game and you don't like the paladin fall from grace mechanic you can figure something else out. I'd start with the paladin losing all of his abilities except divine grace, divine bond and smite and applying the cavalier/samurai ronin order to him.

I don't have a problem with the paladin losing his powers, that's the same problem the cleric has, just a bit harsher. What I really don't like is what they did with the Cavalier and the Samurai (who basically got the ability to smite everybody without any divine power behind it. A paladin would be stupid not to learn challenging from them and get the rest of his supernatural abilities from the gods. But that probably can't be helped without messing up balance or banning Cavaliers and Samurai) And the fact that someone who has spent years channeling divine power suddenly can't do crap because only two out of 9 alignments are somehow able to grant him powers. I'm thinking about making variants of the old blackguard class. Basically ones where you can trade in your levels and get benefits for having "dead" paladin levels.

Inferon wrote:
As a GM who allows alternate alignment paladins, I think it's strange that paladins can still only be LG while sorcerers can cast using any mental stat and orc witch doctors can cast using their Con!

Hehe, that wasn't that new to me. In the WarCraft RPG Ogre Magi could cast with con.

LazarX wrote:

Here's a little lesson in infinity math.

Take two points one inch apart. How many points are there between them?

Answer yes, an infnite amount.

Take another two sets of points a mile apart How man points are there between them?

Just like the first example the answer is infnite. But that does not make them the same.

If the evil forces of the outer planes ever got their united act together, they'd sweep aside the combined forces of good like dust off a sidewalk. No, the planes are not balanced symmetrically.

According to your logic there's absolutely no need for the evil forces to work together. Since the Abyss already has infinite layers which are all infinitely big they could simply take over the Wheel.

The Crusader wrote:
Some stains don't wash off.

Please tell me the rule section that mentions unforgivable acts that keep your alignment locked in a dark basement.

The Crusader wrote:

You can. You will. You shouldn't.

Some things should be pure.

Oh, the old "lawful is better than chaotic" shtick.

TheSideKick wrote:
so you do have options, just not full bab with awesome saves options.

Why does almost nobody get it? This isn't about alternate classes for divinely empowered fighters. It's about the fact that there's a class with a very specific skill set that's only accessible for two opposite alignments and drops to the usefulness of an NPC-class if you ever change it. Unless you are lawful good and switch to chaotic evil the character is screwed up forever. It doesn't matter if he multi-classes into Inquisitor or Oracle, he will always be worse than other heroes. And that keeps you from effectively using lawful evil fallen paladins, redeemed anti-paladins etc as concepts.

LazarX wrote:
The Great Wheel was nothing more than a outer planar geograhical arrangement created for Greyhawk. The outer planes of the Forgotten Realms, and Krynn followed no such arrangement (it was Tree shaped if I remember one interpretation )) and as far as I know neither do the ones attached to Golarion.

Funny, I'm pretty sure I remember a time when the Great Wheel was it's own setting (Planescape) and connected Greyhawk, Krynn and the Forgotten Realms.

LazarX wrote:

And if you took into account that the Seven Heavens were just Seven Layers, and that it's opposite counterpart had Six Hundred Sixty Six, even the Great Wheel wasn't nearly as symmetrical as you thought. The evil outer planes had far more layers than the good ones.

Also remember that Hell had 9 layers and it's counterpart only had 3.

Yes, but that didn't matter because each layer was infinitely big. And infinity times infinity is the same as seven times infinity, just like 3 times infinity is the same as 9 times infinity.

Theconiel wrote:
Anyway, I think that a Paladin ought to be lawful good (not lawful stupid). I think other classes with similar abilities but different alignments would be interesting to play, but I think they should not be called paladins. For example, a paladin-like class might be dedicated to good and freedom (CG alignment). I haven't come up with a good name for the class, though.

Before the UA's Paladin of Freedom, there was a prestige class called Holy Liberator for that. It was pretty much a chaotic good version of the blackguard, the vital thing that was missing were the benefits for being an ex-paladin. But I agree, someone who kicks sand in his enemies faces, lies etc shouldn't be called a paladin.

Theconiel wrote:
Navarion, I absolutely love your idea about an antipaladin's "falling" and becoming a paladin!

Thanks, I'm currently collecting ideas for a setting, and among them is an order of anti-paladins whose training is inspired by the Mord-Sith (the way they are made evil, not the fighting style and abilities). And you can't think about Mord-Sith without thinking about Cara.

Heaven's Agent wrote:
I realize that, which is why I summarized the result of those many threads and discussions in my first reply.

I am sure you could have done that in a much friendlier tone.

Heaven's Agent wrote:
Both are recent additions, though. The antipaladin concept goes back to the beginning of the hobby, and even beyond. That is why it gets a special allowance.

Okay, now I'm hearing "Get off my lawn ya punk. Where's my THAC0? Why is their no "Elf" class anymore?" Not everything old is good because it's old.

Heaven's Agent wrote:
This argument is faulty as well. A being that starts as an antipaladin is still consciously turning away from all that is good. They make a conscious decision to sever themselves from the good and positive forces of the game's universe. They are beyond redemption as well.

By that logic a paladin is incorruptible since he consciously turned away from all that is evil. Seriously, we already had a succubus paladin. A being that is literally made out of chaos and evil. Please show me the part of the rules where it says that the anti-paladin ceases to be a mortal being with a soul and is unable to change his alignment.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
That was pretty much my character's personality, and I think it fully reflects the kind of thing you are looking for in a class; a character that has divine power that, while he does not abide by some sort of code, he does serve the greater good, and will do whatever it takes to achieve that goal; even if it means working with the forces of Evil.

Not really. I'm fine with my Inquisitor. However, what is a let's say level 10 anti-paladin who loses his power and multi-classes into Inquisitor of a good deity?

Heaven's Agent wrote:
Your sarcasm is misplaced and faulty. This is hardly a different or new suggestion. It has been discussed many times on these boards, and my post is simply a summary of the developers' position on the subject of those discussions every time. It's idiotic and a waste of time to continue to push for non-lawful good paladin in the game. If you want such options, add them to your home game; stop kicking the dead bonded mount.

You know, not everybody lives on these forums. Just thought I should mention that.

Heaven's Agent wrote:
It was not an exception to what the developers said. It is a special allowance due to the hobby's long history. This is also why paladin will always be lawful good.

The Unearthed Arcana also belong to the "hobby's long history." And I'm pretty sure that they dropped the lawful good requirement in D&D 4E. And as much as I don't like it you can hardly argue that it's not part of the hobby's history.

Heaven's Agent wrote:
Antipaladins are a true and conscious corruption of a paladin's powers, abilities, and purpose. They are the embodiment of everything a paladin is not. A fallen paladin has to choose to turn his back on the powers of good, something that even most fallen paladins refuse to do; it is essentially burning your bridges in spite as you leave. There is...

Yeah, it's good and well possible that the best a paladin turned anti-paladin can accomplish is forgiveness in a Vader-style death (if you are into that, in the Star Wars Expanded Universe you are no Jedi unless you have at least fallen once). However, let's look at the opposite way. Someone is raised to be chaotic evil and trained as an anti-paladin. Even if he manages to get away from that turn his back on the powers of the Abyss, atones for his sins and becomes lawful good he gets what? Nothing. And that is a whole lot harder than falling.

LazarX wrote:
Theorectically a characeter that the OP descibes never would have even made it to first level as a Paladin. By the time you're first level you would have either worked out your doubts, or washed out.

Doubts come with experience. A value that's exactly 0 on a level 1 character when he starts. :D It's easy to have no doubts while trained in a monastery with 20 other paladins and a cleric.

LazarX wrote:
And I don't see the logic for symmetry in alignments. It IS much harder to be good than evil. Good requires an active conmitment. The only thing Evil needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing.

Do you know the Great Wheel? And no, evil and good both needs conscious effort. Evil still has to be inflicted on someone who will probably fight back.

Heaven's Agent wrote:
A paladin that is not lawful good is not a paladin. If you want to play a divine champion that makes service to justice and glory his life, roll a paladin. Otherwise play something else. There are other options available to you already.

Well, a paladin that is chaotic evil is an "anti-paladin". So the developers basically say that they don't like paladin classes with alternate alignments and then made one themselves. So what exactly is the "reason" that there couldn't be others? If you have such a problem with the Unearthed Arcana names (paladin of liberation, tyranny etc.) they could also have other names.

Ssalarn wrote:
Also, as noted in an earlier conversation, it's not even a god that a paladin is necessarily receiving his powers from, but the pure forces of law and goodness. Presumably an antipaladin is drawing his power from the forces of pure chaos and evil.

Okay, then answer me this: Why can't someone get paladin-like powers from the pure forces of chaos and goodness or the pure forces of law and evil? And if you claim that those alignment combinations are worse matches think of devils and azata.

Lemmy wrote:

Yeah! How dare you suggest something different or voice your opinion in this forum?! HOW. DARE. YOU?

Don't you know that playing non-LG Paladins is badwrong fun? Shame on you! Shame on you!!!


*g* Thanks, I needed the laugh.

Lemmy wrote:

Why is it that Paladins invoke such fanatism from some people? Why can't the guy like the mechanics of the class but not necessarilly want to be Lawful Good?

Everytime someone suggests anything remotely similar to a non-LG Paladin, another someone comes over and tells how wrong that idea is. By god people, it's just an idea. I like roguish charactersm but I don't like the Rogue class. Can't I suggest an archetype or voice my PoV on the matter?

Hey, I've seen games with CG Paladins and LN Paladins. Neither of them ruined our role-playing experience.

...Well, maybe the LN one, but that's because his player was a douchebag.

I don't know. And I really wonder if people are so protective of the name brand (Paladin (TM), proudly wearing shiny armor, riding white horses and slaying chromatic dragons since some time after 1974.) or are afraid that someone wants to take their class abilities without the drawbacks. Concerning the latter... I'm actually thinking of houseruling the paladin's smite evil to a mechanic like the cavalier's challenge that would work against all foes and that he would keep even when he loses his other powers. I'm still contemplating how much that would mess up the balance of the class if you can't drown it in neutral mercenaries or summoned creatures.

By the way, no one addressed the title. The fact that a paladin can fall really deep and get his power back from the forces of evil while good doesn't provide the same service for redeemed anti-paladins/blackguards.

Welcome to another paladin thread. This one is about the special mechanics of the blackguard and anti-paladin and the big problem of paladin mechanics. As most people who don't try to inject real world moral relativism into their D&D/Pathfinder know a Paladin gets a bunch of cool special abilities as long as he follows a pretty rigid code. If he breaks it he has to atone to get his power back. BUT he has the honour of being the only class whose alignment is locked on both axes from level 1. A paladin who realizes that lawful good just isn't something he wants to be for the rest of his life is a worse waste of space than a mule in the Mines of Moria. Well, unless he gets the idea that heaven is for chumps and evil is cool. In that case the blackguard or the anti-paladin allow him to get back all of his powers twisted to do the opposite. Welcome to the dark side. Since being evil is all about the easy way (well and not bothering with the greater good, otherwise you would be neutral) that's easy. The gods of darkness, blood and murder embrace you. Wooooooo.
Now there are two ugly problem with that in the otherwise nicely symmetrical cosmology. If you drop out of paladin school without going all the way to kicking puppies and sacrificing virgins you are screwed. Bad paladin, no powers for you. Why is that? The other thing is that a blackguard or anti-paladin can go nowhere. It doesn't matter if they go into neutral territory or all the way to good, no one will accept them and give them powers. A level 20 anti-paladin who is redeemed is a knight of the sad countenance. Seems that the good gods aren't that much into redemption after all.
I would really like it if there would be multiple "divine champion" classes for the different alignments, especially now that the cavalier, samurai and hellknight beat up the paladin to take his most important class feature. Atonement would allow them to switch between the archetypes on an alignment change. Of course if someone tries to do that too often he could run out of gods he hasn't annoyed yet.

The good news? I found someone the preview text convinced to pledge 15 $. The better news? I upped my pledge to 45 $ to get the adventure and the other Kaidan products.

The bad news? 7388 $ left until the Player's Guide gets made. :(

Detect Magic wrote:

An aside, I love how the Redeemer lacks Detect Evil. Perhaps an idealistic fellow out to save the world is a bit naive, lacking the "sense" for it!


It's a great way to waste smites. That's why I had a brilliant idea for a pair of NPCs who travel together. She's an aasimar Tranquil Guardian/Drunken Master and he's a half-orc Redeemer/Rogue (both gestalts). Tranquil Guardian and Redeemer were made for each other. :D


Brinymon DeGuzzler wrote:
Faith and belief are powerful things. If the majority of society "believe" and/or have "faith" that what they are doing is considerd "righteous" by their god then who or what deems their actions as evil or wrong?

In our world? People who are slightly smarter. In Pathfinder? The good gods, angels, archons, agathions and azata.

The rogue has lots of skill points, he's good at stealth, has awesome class features (trap sense, evasion etc.) and is decent in a fight even though he should have backup for the flanking bonus. I would almost like the ranger better (and did so in 3.5) but now I don't really get warm with his class features and the capstone ability anymore, however now the inquisitor is slowly replacing the rogue for me. Not as dependent on friends and sweet divine spellcasting. :D

Brinymon DeGuzzler wrote:
It is the motivation behind the torture. I have yet to hear of a person raping someone or something for the greater good.

Rape can be torture too. You mean if a villain laughs about hot irons, doesn't care when his/her nails are pulled out and breathes in deeply during waterboarding just to spite you but is deathly afraid of being raped you mean you wouldn't do it even if the fate of the world is at stake?

Brinymon DeGuzzler wrote:
Rape undead? you are sick?

Oh come on, Vampires and humans having sex or something equivalent is faaaaaar older than Twilight. Dhampires have to come from somewhere.

Ryu Kaijitsu wrote:
I would say that would fit well for a chaotic good necrophile that fights undead XD

Aside from the fact that necrophilia and goodness pretty much exclude each other (corpse desecration is considered evil) why the crap do people attach things like torture and rape to the chaotic side of the law/chaos axis? Does it have anything to do with the fact that the only chaotic alignment left in 4E is chaotic evil?

LazarX wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
It's entirely possible to make iron armor look like glistening gold with a cantrip.
For an hour until the effect wears off.

I think the point was that it is an incredibly simple magic effect. Those on magic arms & armour are permanent anyways, so it could be simply belong to the overall effect of the specific enchantment.

"As is" items were always strange to me. I got into D&D through Baldur's Gate II. There I found Carsomyr a two-handed Holy Avenger. When I got into the P&P (3.X at that time) a Holy Avenger was a "cold iron longsword". That always bothered me. Are longswords holier than other weapons? Why don't all lawful good deities have them as favoured weapons then? Houserule time...

Still, where RAW is concerned I would consider "as is" magic items to be made out of the appropriate standard material for the item (usually steel or wood) unless it's specifically said that they are not.

Gandal wrote:

Whoops, forgot to tell.

Yes, the rogue said she wanted that elven woman,but rolled low on Bluff, and the gnoll chieftain wasn't convinced enough.
The dwarf cleric said "He wants to sell her, so they won't kill her, and my spells will cure every wounds and even make the scars disappear once we'll have bought her" (which again i think it is metagaming too much)

Sorry, but I don't understand. Why bluff? Was she trying to "reserve" her so she could buy her later (later being after they have killed the gnolls)? Did they not have enough money? Because I would react kind of miffed if I go to the bakery and the vendor doesn't want to sell me buns because he doesn't believe me. I guess his boss would feel the same way....

Brinymon DeGuzzler wrote:
How so?

How not? You mean because they are evil? By that logic some thiefs, con artists and burglars who never physically harmed another being can be tortured too without it being evil. Or is it because they are evil "by nature"? In that case one has to argue what "by nature" is. They are spawned with their alignment, but is it unchangeable? The Fallen Angel is a pretty common trope, heck the devils have their own monster for that. If angels can fall, demons and devils can rise.

Torture is never a good act. Period. Pathfinder is a system of moral absolutes. It doesn't care if you summon a succubus to get someone out of a burning building with her fire immunity and flight abilities. You summoned an evil outsider into the world and that is an evil act. You also saved someone's life so you performed a good act at the same time. While that may cancel out alignment shifts it does not change the fact that you performed a minor evil act.

Wicht wrote:
I'm not sure which aspect of the Samurai as portrayed in fiction annoys you but would be interested in knowing. While individual players can portray their Samurai characters however they want, Kaidan will present them as a social caste with both savory and unsavory characters.

It's the same problem as with their Wikipedia article. The whole "complete, unthinking obedience to one's master and suicide after his death" deal. If you are a good guy or a bad guy as a samurai depends on your master. Not mentioning what havoc you can wreak in a system like that when you are in a fantasy world with shapechange and domination magic....

Wicht wrote:
Glad to have you on board Navarion. We'll try to make sure and include ninjas just for you. :D

Aww, thanks. ;) I already upped my pledge, I hope it hits the 3000 soon.


It's not just in RPGs, every time I encounter samurai in fiction I get the urge to bang my head against a wall (most recently with the webcomic Samurai's Blood). Usually the same feeling I get when discussing the paladin code or hellknights. :D If Kaidan would be first time where it is differently that would be great. If not it still has ninjas and samurai-eating monsters. :D

I pledged 20 $ and I'm thinking about upping it to 25 in the hope that we'll get the player's guide... And I have absolutely no idea why. :D I hate horror (stories, movies, rpgs etc.) and I don't like the medieval Japanese culture such fantasy settings are usually inspired by (When reading the Legend of the Five Rings setting for 3.X I could only think of characters who would have felt the need to kill any samurai in the party in their sleep, really samurai is the next step on the annoyance chart right after the badly-played paladin.) except for Ninjas.... Why in the Nine Hells am I looking forward to Kaidan?o_o

No reference. It's just that there seem to be two types of Amazons in fantasy literature. The Greek ones (in Wonder Woman or The Dark Eye) use armor inspired by that of Greek soldiers from antiquity (more or less, that of TDE amazons stops above the breasts and leaves the shoulders free) swords and shields, and "jungle amazons" who barely wear anything and prefer weapons like spears. Calling them Amazonas Amazons was a translation mistake, in English what I know as Amazonas is called Amazon River (allegedly named that way by explorers because the Indian tribes there had fighting women.)

Oh, you're talking about the Amazonas Amazons. I prefer the Greek Armored Amazons.

I only played a human once, that was when humans were the only ones who could become paladins. I realized that both suck for me. :D

Normal humans. If you really want to have them represent special cultural traits like weapon training all amazons get or the area where they live you can exchange a few traits for those in the Advanced Race Guide.

Reminds me of The Dark Eye. There's (or was, I stopped following the setting a few years ago) a nation controlled by the cultists of the archdemonic opposite to the goddess of love (which of course is all about mind control and rape) and they are completely infiltration-proof. Whoever wants to wield some kind of power has to sell his soul to the archdemon in a ritual which includes acts that would damn the soul even without the selling part. If someone tries to get out at that point he's killed, if not he's one of them. Trying to get someone out of a pact is usually painful and fatal.... If it is tried. Of course killing someone to send him to eternal torment is an easier option.

So yeah, this isn't Scooby-doo where you grab a black robe mumble something and copy the movements of the other people there. Demons are bad news and proving your loyalty to them will not give you brownie points with the higher planes.

wolfman1911 wrote:
Suppose a Paladin of Sarenrae is sent by his church to capture a tiefling who was reportedly causing all sorts of trouble. The paladin captures the tiefling and brings him back to his church. The local cleric wants to execute the tiefling, partly because of what he's been told, and partly because, well, the guy is a tiefling, evil in the blood and all that.

I'm no expert on Sarenrae, but since it's obviously about a good faith I have to say that I can't comment without more information.

1. What's "all sorts of trouble"? Thievery? Public indecency with a goat? Painting graffiti on the local guardhouse? Or murder, rape and sacrificing to dark gods?

2. What is "reportedly" did he do it or not? Lord Shojo "reportedly" allied with a lich and his goblin army to bring down his own city. Well, reported by a crazy paladin who fell because of executing him on those false accusations.

3. If he did anything bad, what were the tiefling's motives.

All I can tell so far is that the cleric wouldn't have fallen because he didn't actually do anything.

Midnight_Angel wrote:
Navarion wrote:
However I also think that the Paladin is a screw-up in that regard. I would prefer it if there was a champion class for good, evil, law and chaos, not just for lawful good and chaotic evil.

Actually, I consider the Anti-Paladin pretty much screwed up, as well.

Divine Code of Conduct for a CE character... yeah right.

I meant the antipaladin too. As I wrote, I would like it best if there was a champion for each of the four alignment extremes (and maybe one for true neutrality), not specific alignments. (And yeah, the most hilarious part about the anti is that his code of conduct specifically allows selfish good acts while the rules under ex-antipaladin disallow all good acts.)

Gorbacz wrote:

Because I think that Books of Vile/Exalted were both piles of rotten limburger, and this thread evokes that particular smell.

One core class that gets zomgbbqwtf powahs due to being Good is more than enough!

Hey, evil has the Antipaladin. Personally I think that everything plane- and alignment-related needs an equal opposite. However I also think that the Paladin is a screw-up in that regard. I would prefer it if there was a champion class for good, evil, law and chaos, not just for lawful good and chaotic evil.

proftobe wrote:
I think its a neat feat idea, but no they can't create their own code on the fly. If they wanted to take the feat I'd make them come up with a code, especially the paladin. Its very easy to let yourself down especially if an ancestor was something akin to a platonic ideal. In my opinion it would be harder to regain their powers because they can't "atone" themselves. Making it more of an intense roleplaying experience as they battle to redeem themselves in their own eyes so that htye can use their own powers. Sure its meta as hell but its an intresting challenge as well.

Yeah, that's the one kind who constantly expects too much from himself. However, there is also the opposite kind who wouldn't realize that they have done something bad when a solar is hunting them down.

From what I can tell the divine caster classes currently look like this:

Cleric: Already has the option to serve a cause so he basically doesn't get any use out of this feat.

Druid: Is restricted to 5 out of 9 alignments and has a pretty loose code.

Paladin: Is restricted to 1 out of 9 alignments and has a very strict code.

Ranger: No restrictions.

Inquisitor: Can serve an ideal.

Oracle: No restrictions.

Somehow I get the feeling the feat was a stupid idea unless it ignores the need to follow the code of conduct. Otherwise it would just be a fluff description.

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Some of you need to go back and watch the Star Trek: The Next Generation two-parter "Chain of Command" again.

What good would that do? Not everyone here is a Trekkie, and when I look at the Star Trek Online forums I get the bad feeling that a lot of the people there would have found Picard torturing Madred for information on his metagenic weapons "badass".-_-

I want to take this opportunity to say that Paizo has one of the absolutely worst forum systems I have ever encountered. Just munched a very long post without a chance to recover it. And no smileys...

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
So Navarion, hurting bad guys is evil? Because if a beating while being restrained is evil, what about hold person and killing or inflicting harm while evil is powerless to act? i.e. they lost initiative, they are seized/entangled/stuck in evard's black tentacles. If they are disarmed tripped and then injured, or grappled, pinned and backstabbed it is going to feel awful on their end, they have no power, there is no hope and their hp is running out.

Already answered that one. Ignoring the answer doesn't help your case.

Navarion wrote:
That is nonsense. Do you know why? Because hp are an abstract system designed to make combat enjoyable in the game because if it were realistic every single hit could kill you. There are different interpretations what hp damage represents, some consider it a combination of health and stamina, so a crit with a greatsword that didn't kill you for example didn't actually hit you but the effort to evade it was really exhausting. In combat you are still fighting back and normally it is ended either by surrender, being knocked out or killed. Torture is against someone who is unable to fight back and unlike in combat the goal is not to disable the opponent as quickly as possible but to draw out his suffering.
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Good can be pretty good at violating rights and taking away the power of evil. Taking the power of evil is a motivation of good adventurers.

You mean the motivation of good adventurers is to get their hands on unholy weapons and the means to become lichs? :P

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Think there is a blurring of dishonourable into evil.

Yeah, there is a blurring. After combat. During combat good and evil don't give a crap if you throw sand in someone's eyes, kick him in the nuts or backstab him. If you do it to someone who surrendered or otherwise was taken prisoner that's evil.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Navarion, on the pally and the orcs, are you saying he will fall for killing an evil tribe? :?

Yes. I'm not even starting about children and non-combatants or how killing all warriors/hunters would make them starve. If orcs agree that they want to live in a chaotic evil society that's their choice as long as they don't bother their neighbors with it.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
On detect evil, if the crusader's god says unto the paladin, you are an agent of good, peace and law, go combat and root out evil and eradicate it, here, take some smites and holy juice, they have quite the divine mandate to kick in the door of evil and burn those smites. Now the local gov might disagree, but if the pally is from an order about eradicating evil, then it is crusader LG vs peaceful LG.

So your "crusader LG" would go on the market place in a human village, detect evil and kill everyone who lights up. The cutpurse, the baker who puts sawdust in his bread to make it cheaper, the moneylender whose interest rates drove a few families into poverty etc?

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