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Elf Archer

Navarion's page

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Hello, I'm currently thinking about a mythic build and a bit confused about a few things so I'd like to know if I understand everything correctly.

Beyond Morality (Ex): You have no alignment. You can become a member of any class, even one with an alignment requirement, and can never lose your membership because of a change in alignment. If you violate the code of ethics of any of your classes, you might still lose access to certain features of such classes, subject to GM discretion. Attempts to detect your alignment don't return any results. If a class restricts you from casting spells with an alignment descriptor, you can cast such spells without restrictions or repercussions. If you're the target of a spell or effect that is based on alignment, you're treated as the most favorable alignment when determining the spell's effect on you. Any effects that alter alignment have no effect on you. If you lose this effect, you revert to your previous alignment.

Divine Source (Su): You can grant divine spells to those who follow your cause, allowing them to select you as their deity for the purposes of determining their spells and domains. Select two domains upon taking this ability. These domains must be alignment domains matching your alignment if possible, unless your alignment is neutral. You grant access to these domains as if you were a deity. Creatures that gain spells from you don't receive any spells per day of levels higher than your tier; they lose those spell slots. In addition, you can cast spells from domains you grant as long as their level is equal to or less than your tier. Each day as a spell-like ability, you can cast one spell of each level equal to or less than your tier (selecting from those available to you from your divine source domains). If you're a cleric or you venerate a deity, you may change your spell domains to those you grant others. At 6th tier and 9th tier, you can select this ability again, adding one domain and two subdomains (see the Advanced Player's Guide) to your list each time and adding their spells to the list of those that you can cast.

1) As I understand it, if I choose Beyond Morality first I can freely pick my first two domains but don't get any associated subdomains (even though people who worship the character could still take them). If I choose Divine Source first as a chaotic good character I get the Chaos and Good domains and keep them even after choosing Beyond Morality.

2) Even though it's not explicitly stated I guess it is intended for the second and third time you take Divine Source to get a domain and the two associated subdomains.

3) Can you grant spells to yourself? Since Divine Source mentions the possibility that you can exchange your old domains for the ones you are granting others that seems to be a fair question. Also you can grant a total of 4 domains and 4 subdomains. The rule kind of sounds like you get them all in exchange for your old domains, even though it is explicitly forbidden to have both a domain and one of its subdomains. (That last part luckily doesn't concern me since it's a Warpriest/Inquisitor gestalt but I'm still curious).

4) What happens if one of your clerics (or other divine spellcasters) breaks your code of conduct? Do you know instantly? When he prays for spells the next time? Not at all until you find out?

claudekennilol wrote:

Are there any rules regarding to play a character with low mental stats (cha, wis, int)?

At what point can the GM step in and say something along the lines of "look, you've the lowest charisma (score of 8 or something) so stop being the party's spokesperson". Or "stop coming up with all of these useful ideas" (having an int of 8).

Are these valid or is it just up the player to determine how to best play their own character?

Cha and Wis are incredibly easy. You just have to let them make their Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Sense Motive etc. checks. The player may not believe that the halfling in front of him is a hill giant who is cloaked by an illusion and could stomp him flat. But if the halfling rolled higher on Bluff (in spite of the penalties to such a blatant lie) than the player on Sense Motive his character will believe it and that's what he has to play.

While reading this thread I got a strange idea (because the same rules ruined a concept for a gestalt I had, a Tiefling paladin/sorcerer gestalt with the abyssal bloodline who uses his "Added Summonings" ability to summon demons and forces them to help him). How would it be to address those issues through the trait system by adding special dispensations that add small exceptions like "You are allowed to cast healing spells with the [evil] descriptor", "You are allowed to cast summon monster spells with the [evil] descriptor" or "You are allowed to lie" (for undercover paladins)? As long as you limit it to one and don't allow anything over the top like "You are allowed to kill innocents to prove your loyalty to cults you are infiltrating" it could work.

Only way that should have resulted in a fall was if the hit with the shovel had killed the wizard.

The White Necromancer by Kobold Press creates neutral mindless undead and intelligent undead that match his alignment (which can be any non-evil).

Blakmane wrote:
Having a paladin fall serves almost no purpose except to destroy your campaign and make your players hate you. 'Punishment' mechanics have no place in RPGs.

In that case you should just scrap the paladin and all divine classes that can lose their powers. If you play one you accept to play by the rules of the god you worship and follow the code of conduct. In that regard being a paladin, inquisitor, cleric or whatever is pretty much like a pact with a devil. If you break it there'll be hell to pay. RPG's should never be about choosing the most fun ability sets but about consequences.

redcelt32 wrote:

One thing that could help both you and him would be to have him detail the personal code of ethics for his anti-paladin. Does he have any places where he draws the line? If not, then he should...otherwise where is the spark that could lead to redemption?

For instance, does he not believe in killing children? Pregnant women? Animals? Helpless prisoners? Those who perservere and struggle to survive in adverse situations? If he is willing to spare none of these, I really don't see where his redemption is coming from. I recommend selecting one of these or something similar, then you can have the storyline bump some obligations to be evil up against these groups. This could lead to an internal conflict of the will of his evil god vs his personal code, which is really the only way I see a conversion, unless you plan of sticking a Helm of Opposite Alignment on his head :)

After reviewing everything you and he may discover it works better character-wise to have him switch from an anti-paladin to an inquisitor or warpriest who is CN/CG or LE, since these might translate easier than such a drastic conversion.

My 2 cents!

What you describe sounds more like the old (lawful evil) Paladin of Tyranny from Unearthed Arcana. The anti-paladin's code of conduct doesn't leave much room for goodness:

"An antipaladin must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly and altruistically commits good acts. This does not mean that an antipaladin cannot take actions someone else might qualify as good, only that such actions must always be in service of his own dark ends. An antipaladin's code requires that he place his own interests and desires above all else, as well as impose tyranny, take advantage whenever possible, and punish the good and just, provided such actions don't interfere with his goals."

There doesn't have to be a spark in the beginning. There can be events that show him that he's on the wrong track to get whatever his reason to become evil was.

Nearyn wrote:

I am of the belief that anyone who grew up with the original trilogy, knows the slightest bit about storytelling or cinematography, or simply has a working gag-reflex, found Star Wars Episode III very painful.



Nearyn wrote:
Every time, and I mean EVERY.SINGLE.TIME I've seen or played in a story where a paladin falls, and the next thing he does is become an anti-paladin I've done nothing but facepalm and groan in disbelief. So I'd advice you use the 3-step program I call Paladin->Fighter->Anti-Paladin... or in your case: the other way around.

Star Wars Episode III must have been very painful for you.

It's a shame that Pathfinder doesn't have an updated holy liberator class, switching to the opposite alignment bothers me. In my opinion the first thing you should do is get the motivation of the anti-paladin. You have to know why he chose to be evil to tempt him away from it. Lust for power? Forced into the role like a Mord Sith? Did he go "let the world burn" after he was betrayed? Each would need other ways of convincing him that good is the better choice.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I just think "good cop/bad cop" and "tie a guy to a chair and leave him somewhere for a while" are things that a neutral character should be able to get away with.

I mean, I've had good parties abduct people and leave them locked in rooms, or tied to furniture for periods of time to prevent them from malfeasance because it was a humane alternative to "killing them."

Imprisonment depends on length and condition. If someone bound to a chair has to be afraid that you just left him there and no one will ever find him, or he's forced to soil himself because he can't go to the toilet you have crossed the line. However, you should remember that you usually don't switch alignment for a single act. Neutral characters can get away with the occasional evil act, if it stays occasional and they also do good deeds.

Beheading someone who tries to surrender is definitely an evil act that would make a Paladin fall like a sack of rice.
The other situation you described depends a lot on the understanding of the alignment rules and the code of the paladin. I'm opposed to forcing a paladin to throw his life away, and generally I don't think that inaction can be an act (good or bad). If he really has no chance to make a difference except of ending up as an additional corpse I would allow it. However I would fully expect him to follow the "punish those who harm or threaten innocents"-part of his code. Meaning he'd have to either beat the oracle to death or to an oath to do penance on the next occasion and make sure that the Grey Maidens get what they deserve.

thejeff wrote:
That it was inspired by Les Mis doesn't mean it was meant to be exactly Les Mis. Les Mis may have led to "We should do revolutionary France", which led to Galt.

Les Miserables would be more postrevolution as far as I can tell, but maybe it was the the reason for including something France-like and then someone thought that the revolution would be more interesting.

prosfilaes wrote:
You changed two important details; instead of (white) humans, hobbits, elves and dwarves, you now have Nubians. And instead of orcs who could walk around the real world on Halloween or at a con no problem, you have giants who are distinctly inhuman.

You only asked for the good races to be dark-skinned. The only good race in my idea are black humans. You asked for the villains to be pale-skinned, that's also satisfied (and I wouldn't have a problem with Transylvanian vampires, Viking plunderers or whatever either). Tolkien originally wanted to create myths for England, so obviously people in Middle Earth looked like Englishmen.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

That would be an instant buy for me. The whole lack of templates (and especially half-dragons) made me abandon D&D 4E, and a few days ago I looked at Darken by Kate Ashwin again and really started missing the good old dragon/humanoid hybrids. The advanced race guide wasn't much help unfortunately.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:
To be honest, we should get the rest of the world to just ignore NK. Completely ignore, no aid, no communications, no 'commerce,' nothing.
Its a modern day holocaust you're ignoring there.

As I already wrote, you will not get anyone with the power to do something to care. Unless North Korea starts expanding or they find huge deposits of oil, diamonds or rare earths that NK doesn't want to share peacefully nothing will happen.

Nothing will happen. Unlike Nazi Germany North Korea is only rattling its sabre but not actually threatening anyone the West or East care about and they don't have anything worth occupying them for. Violations of human rights have never sparked a war, they only were excuses.

Just throwing something in here: Who wears his magic items permanently? People have to bath sometimes, maybe don't want to sleep in armor regardless which stats it boosts, use a disguise, wear fine clothes for the duke's dinner etc. If you interpret the rule like that you will almost never have a permanent ability score bonus, unless you roleplay like killstealrovr9000 from WoW.

I would interpret "Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses." as the bonus being counted as permanent as long as it's duration may exceed 24 hours. If you put on a belt of giant's strength the bonus is permanent until dispelled (namely taking off the belt) so it's a permanent bonus. Otherwise you better don't use it to hold your pants in place or you nerf yourself by going to the toilet.:D

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If I learned anything from playing Skyrim it's that the easiest way to fix any power problem rogues might have is simply removing the 30 ft. range limit on sneak attack. :D

The gestalt rules specifically forbid eldritch knight, mystic theurge and arcane trickster.

Unless your GM is out to slaughter the party you should do what you are most comfortable with. If you want a swordmaster who can even hold his own in an antimagic field and only want to enhance it with a few flashy spells fighter is for you. If you want to go nuts on the magical side wizard or that sorcerer bloodline that lets you cast with int are best.

I guess that's a friendly nudge to get you to use skill points to learn the language and take appropriate feats. It's a bit strange that in Pathfinder there's no option for having 3 starting languages, not even in the Advanced Race Guide.

The linothorax is another headache. According to this guy it offered the same protection as 2mm of bronze armor at 1/3 of the weight. Which, professor or not, doesn't explain why richer hoplites invested into a bronze breastplate if it only weighted them down. Maybe I would go with hide armor.
You're probably right with the pectorals, even though I wonder if the straps shown on the pictures would also provide a bit of extra protection, One seems to be covered with metal, the other at least studded. Strangely people who make them today don't think of that....


That's interesting, was there any type of armor that was considered inferior to it? When I look at it I kind of have the feeling that I would rather wear boiled leather around most of my torso.

Thanks for the armor stats, would you make it medium armor?
Concerning the feat I had up to know thought to just use the phalanx soldier archetype for hoplites.

@ mplindustries

Well, this site calls them pectoral or simple breastplate, even though I would agree about the stats. It kind of looks like they didn't expect people trying not to hit it...O_o

Hello, I'm currently collecting ideas for a setting that is based more on antiquity than on the Middle Ages and while looking at pictures of armor from that time I wonder what it would be in Pathfinder terms.

I always considered the armor of wealthy hoplites breastplates, but according to Ultimate Equipment those don't protect the back.
Also, what would this be then?

I guess the rest would fall under everything from quilted cloth over hide and the various lamellar armors to scale mail, but those two are giving me headaches.

Pendagast wrote:
Not really sure what the actual goal of the oracle class was when it came out, the favore soul was a good frame work to start from, instead there are features here in the oracle that seem more witchy than the witch.

Maybe you should say goodbye to the idea that the oracle is the new favored soul because of spontaneous casting. The oracle is the high fantasy version of the Pythia, Teiresias, Cassandra (really, the only reason that there is no "no one believes you"-curse is that it simply could not stand up to meta-gaming players) etc. If you want a favoured soul the oracle will sorely disappoint you, it is meant for completely different character concepts.

Edit: There is a 3rd party PDF that could interest you. It has a magus archetype with access to sorcerer bloodlines. Magus with celestial bloodline might be closer to what you are looking for.

Hello, I'm working on a custom race for a homebrew setting, fey progenitors of the elves who have mostly withdrawn from the material plane since those who later became known as "drow" made sure that there are plenty bad people with cold iron blades around. So far the only way to depict that was giving them DR/cold iron which is expensive and makes them look bad. (Really, they leave the material plane because of weapons who hurt them like normal weapons hurt every other living being? D'awww let's play the world's saddest song on the world's smallest violin.)
Now the mythic playtest rules have exactly what I would need.

Material Weakness: Select cold iron, silver, or wood.
Weapons made primarily from the selected material
automatically confirm all critical hits against you and
the critical multiplier is increased by 1, to a maximum
of ×4. If you ever gain damage reduction, no matter
the source, weapons made primarily from the selected
material bypass that damage reduction.

I'm a bit unsure how the race point cost should look. The closest thing would probably be elemental vulnerability a -2 RP, but the mythic equivalent looks a lot worse, so I'm thinking about -3 or even -4....

I'm pretty sure that you would prefer to keep your books separated but reading the test pdf immediately made me think about a tiny expansion to the race building rules. In fact that would be the best place for some of the mythic flaws like material weakness. Having race point cost for those and for a very low-powered mythic ability (one daily use of mythic power to add 1d6 to a d20 roll, converts to an additional daily use of mythic power if the character actually gains mythic tiers) would be great.

Damn it, that guy is into complicated genetics. I once made rules for Elf/Orc-Hybrids for 11 RP.

-0 Humanoid (elf, orc)
-0 Normal movement speed
-0 Standard Language Array. As elves.
-2 Flexible modifiers (+2 Str, +2 Dex)
-2 Orc Ferocity
-2 Elven Immunities
-2 Skill bonus (Perception)
-1 Low-light vision
-2 Darkvision 60 ft.

No idea how I would build 25% humanity in there.

Thanks for putting it up as an update. Sorry that my posts are so rare but at the moment my RL is running amok.

gamer-printer wrote:
As far as why anyone would want to live in Kaidan. Aside from being a beautiful land, the people don't really have a choice. Emmigration is not a policy promoted by the empire, even exiles are kept on a particular island within the archipelago. And of course once death occurs to any inhabitants, they are bound into the reincarnation cycle. So even if they gain some method to escape the cursed islands in the next life, at death, they will be back...

O_o That is the absolutely cruelest thing so far. However, personally I would houserule that once you are away from Kaidan powerful magic can break that bond (Wish or Miracle).

By the way, while following the Bones Kickstarter I found an interesting website. Let's prove it wrong!

Hehe, instantly reminded me of this picture. Sith are Space Fantasy-Drow.

Okay, first of all I just told my friend about your description of Kaidan's horrible horror features and he complained bitterly (I'm exaggerating a bit) that it's not a Kickstarter Update, since he's not on the Paizo message boards.

On the 1st of September there will be just 16 days left. I really hope it takes off then.

Hellooooooooo? Anybody still alive in here? It seems the pledged amount is slowly going backwards.

TheSideKick wrote:
because they function in those alignments, if you want abilities with flexability then you get an inquisitor or oracle, why dont YOU get that?

3.X had lawful good paladins, a prestige class for lawful evil, neutral evil and chaotic evil people with evil paladin powers in the core rules, a prestige class for chaotic good people with paladin powers in the expansion for religious classes and a book with alternate rules for chaotic good, lawful evil and chaotic evil paladin base classes. I am also very sure that there was material on lawful neutral, chaotic neutral and true neutral paladins, but I don't remember in which book or magazine. Now please tell me where you get the idea to state as a fact that paladins and anti-paladins only function with lawful good and chaotic evil alignments. And also how that explains the one-way switch route.

Humphrey Boggard wrote:
Also, if you're running a game and you don't like the paladin fall from grace mechanic you can figure something else out. I'd start with the paladin losing all of his abilities except divine grace, divine bond and smite and applying the cavalier/samurai ronin order to him.

I don't have a problem with the paladin losing his powers, that's the same problem the cleric has, just a bit harsher. What I really don't like is what they did with the Cavalier and the Samurai (who basically got the ability to smite everybody without any divine power behind it. A paladin would be stupid not to learn challenging from them and get the rest of his supernatural abilities from the gods. But that probably can't be helped without messing up balance or banning Cavaliers and Samurai) And the fact that someone who has spent years channeling divine power suddenly can't do crap because only two out of 9 alignments are somehow able to grant him powers. I'm thinking about making variants of the old blackguard class. Basically ones where you can trade in your levels and get benefits for having "dead" paladin levels.

Inferon wrote:
As a GM who allows alternate alignment paladins, I think it's strange that paladins can still only be LG while sorcerers can cast using any mental stat and orc witch doctors can cast using their Con!

Hehe, that wasn't that new to me. In the WarCraft RPG Ogre Magi could cast with con.

LazarX wrote:

Here's a little lesson in infinity math.

Take two points one inch apart. How many points are there between them?

Answer yes, an infnite amount.

Take another two sets of points a mile apart How man points are there between them?

Just like the first example the answer is infnite. But that does not make them the same.

If the evil forces of the outer planes ever got their united act together, they'd sweep aside the combined forces of good like dust off a sidewalk. No, the planes are not balanced symmetrically.

According to your logic there's absolutely no need for the evil forces to work together. Since the Abyss already has infinite layers which are all infinitely big they could simply take over the Wheel.

The Crusader wrote:
Some stains don't wash off.

Please tell me the rule section that mentions unforgivable acts that keep your alignment locked in a dark basement.

The Crusader wrote:

You can. You will. You shouldn't.

Some things should be pure.

Oh, the old "lawful is better than chaotic" shtick.

TheSideKick wrote:
so you do have options, just not full bab with awesome saves options.

Why does almost nobody get it? This isn't about alternate classes for divinely empowered fighters. It's about the fact that there's a class with a very specific skill set that's only accessible for two opposite alignments and drops to the usefulness of an NPC-class if you ever change it. Unless you are lawful good and switch to chaotic evil the character is screwed up forever. It doesn't matter if he multi-classes into Inquisitor or Oracle, he will always be worse than other heroes. And that keeps you from effectively using lawful evil fallen paladins, redeemed anti-paladins etc as concepts.

LazarX wrote:
The Great Wheel was nothing more than a outer planar geograhical arrangement created for Greyhawk. The outer planes of the Forgotten Realms, and Krynn followed no such arrangement (it was Tree shaped if I remember one interpretation )) and as far as I know neither do the ones attached to Golarion.

Funny, I'm pretty sure I remember a time when the Great Wheel was it's own setting (Planescape) and connected Greyhawk, Krynn and the Forgotten Realms.

LazarX wrote:

And if you took into account that the Seven Heavens were just Seven Layers, and that it's opposite counterpart had Six Hundred Sixty Six, even the Great Wheel wasn't nearly as symmetrical as you thought. The evil outer planes had far more layers than the good ones.

Also remember that Hell had 9 layers and it's counterpart only had 3.

Yes, but that didn't matter because each layer was infinitely big. And infinity times infinity is the same as seven times infinity, just like 3 times infinity is the same as 9 times infinity.

Theconiel wrote:
Anyway, I think that a Paladin ought to be lawful good (not lawful stupid). I think other classes with similar abilities but different alignments would be interesting to play, but I think they should not be called paladins. For example, a paladin-like class might be dedicated to good and freedom (CG alignment). I haven't come up with a good name for the class, though.

Before the UA's Paladin of Freedom, there was a prestige class called Holy Liberator for that. It was pretty much a chaotic good version of the blackguard, the vital thing that was missing were the benefits for being an ex-paladin. But I agree, someone who kicks sand in his enemies faces, lies etc shouldn't be called a paladin.

Theconiel wrote:
Navarion, I absolutely love your idea about an antipaladin's "falling" and becoming a paladin!

Thanks, I'm currently collecting ideas for a setting, and among them is an order of anti-paladins whose training is inspired by the Mord-Sith (the way they are made evil, not the fighting style and abilities). And you can't think about Mord-Sith without thinking about Cara.

Heaven's Agent wrote:
I realize that, which is why I summarized the result of those many threads and discussions in my first reply.

I am sure you could have done that in a much friendlier tone.

Heaven's Agent wrote:
Both are recent additions, though. The antipaladin concept goes back to the beginning of the hobby, and even beyond. That is why it gets a special allowance.

Okay, now I'm hearing "Get off my lawn ya punk. Where's my THAC0? Why is their no "Elf" class anymore?" Not everything old is good because it's old.

Heaven's Agent wrote:
This argument is faulty as well. A being that starts as an antipaladin is still consciously turning away from all that is good. They make a conscious decision to sever themselves from the good and positive forces of the game's universe. They are beyond redemption as well.

By that logic a paladin is incorruptible since he consciously turned away from all that is evil. Seriously, we already had a succubus paladin. A being that is literally made out of chaos and evil. Please show me the part of the rules where it says that the anti-paladin ceases to be a mortal being with a soul and is unable to change his alignment.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
That was pretty much my character's personality, and I think it fully reflects the kind of thing you are looking for in a class; a character that has divine power that, while he does not abide by some sort of code, he does serve the greater good, and will do whatever it takes to achieve that goal; even if it means working with the forces of Evil.

Not really. I'm fine with my Inquisitor. However, what is a let's say level 10 anti-paladin who loses his power and multi-classes into Inquisitor of a good deity?

Heaven's Agent wrote:
Your sarcasm is misplaced and faulty. This is hardly a different or new suggestion. It has been discussed many times on these boards, and my post is simply a summary of the developers' position on the subject of those discussions every time. It's idiotic and a waste of time to continue to push for non-lawful good paladin in the game. If you want such options, add them to your home game; stop kicking the dead bonded mount.

You know, not everybody lives on these forums. Just thought I should mention that.

Heaven's Agent wrote:
It was not an exception to what the developers said. It is a special allowance due to the hobby's long history. This is also why paladin will always be lawful good.

The Unearthed Arcana also belong to the "hobby's long history." And I'm pretty sure that they dropped the lawful good requirement in D&D 4E. And as much as I don't like it you can hardly argue that it's not part of the hobby's history.

Heaven's Agent wrote:
Antipaladins are a true and conscious corruption of a paladin's powers, abilities, and purpose. They are the embodiment of everything a paladin is not. A fallen paladin has to choose to turn his back on the powers of good, something that even most fallen paladins refuse to do; it is essentially burning your bridges in spite as you leave. There is...

Yeah, it's good and well possible that the best a paladin turned anti-paladin can accomplish is forgiveness in a Vader-style death (if you are into that, in the Star Wars Expanded Universe you are no Jedi unless you have at least fallen once). However, let's look at the opposite way. Someone is raised to be chaotic evil and trained as an anti-paladin. Even if he manages to get away from that turn his back on the powers of the Abyss, atones for his sins and becomes lawful good he gets what? Nothing. And that is a whole lot harder than falling.

LazarX wrote:
Theorectically a characeter that the OP descibes never would have even made it to first level as a Paladin. By the time you're first level you would have either worked out your doubts, or washed out.

Doubts come with experience. A value that's exactly 0 on a level 1 character when he starts. :D It's easy to have no doubts while trained in a monastery with 20 other paladins and a cleric.

LazarX wrote:
And I don't see the logic for symmetry in alignments. It IS much harder to be good than evil. Good requires an active conmitment. The only thing Evil needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing.

Do you know the Great Wheel? And no, evil and good both needs conscious effort. Evil still has to be inflicted on someone who will probably fight back.

Heaven's Agent wrote:
A paladin that is not lawful good is not a paladin. If you want to play a divine champion that makes service to justice and glory his life, roll a paladin. Otherwise play something else. There are other options available to you already.

Well, a paladin that is chaotic evil is an "anti-paladin". So the developers basically say that they don't like paladin classes with alternate alignments and then made one themselves. So what exactly is the "reason" that there couldn't be others? If you have such a problem with the Unearthed Arcana names (paladin of liberation, tyranny etc.) they could also have other names.

Ssalarn wrote:
Also, as noted in an earlier conversation, it's not even a god that a paladin is necessarily receiving his powers from, but the pure forces of law and goodness. Presumably an antipaladin is drawing his power from the forces of pure chaos and evil.

Okay, then answer me this: Why can't someone get paladin-like powers from the pure forces of chaos and goodness or the pure forces of law and evil? And if you claim that those alignment combinations are worse matches think of devils and azata.

Lemmy wrote:

Yeah! How dare you suggest something different or voice your opinion in this forum?! HOW. DARE. YOU?

Don't you know that playing non-LG Paladins is badwrong fun? Shame on you! Shame on you!!!


*g* Thanks, I needed the laugh.

Lemmy wrote:

Why is it that Paladins invoke such fanatism from some people? Why can't the guy like the mechanics of the class but not necessarilly want to be Lawful Good?

Everytime someone suggests anything remotely similar to a non-LG Paladin, another someone comes over and tells how wrong that idea is. By god people, it's just an idea. I like roguish charactersm but I don't like the Rogue class. Can't I suggest an archetype or voice my PoV on the matter?

Hey, I've seen games with CG Paladins and LN Paladins. Neither of them ruined our role-playing experience.

...Well, maybe the LN one, but that's because his player was a douchebag.

I don't know. And I really wonder if people are so protective of the name brand (Paladin (TM), proudly wearing shiny armor, riding white horses and slaying chromatic dragons since some time after 1974.) or are afraid that someone wants to take their class abilities without the drawbacks. Concerning the latter... I'm actually thinking of houseruling the paladin's smite evil to a mechanic like the cavalier's challenge that would work against all foes and that he would keep even when he loses his other powers. I'm still contemplating how much that would mess up the balance of the class if you can't drown it in neutral mercenaries or summoned creatures.

By the way, no one addressed the title. The fact that a paladin can fall really deep and get his power back from the forces of evil while good doesn't provide the same service for redeemed anti-paladins/blackguards.

Welcome to another paladin thread. This one is about the special mechanics of the blackguard and anti-paladin and the big problem of paladin mechanics. As most people who don't try to inject real world moral relativism into their D&D/Pathfinder know a Paladin gets a bunch of cool special abilities as long as he follows a pretty rigid code. If he breaks it he has to atone to get his power back. BUT he has the honour of being the only class whose alignment is locked on both axes from level 1. A paladin who realizes that lawful good just isn't something he wants to be for the rest of his life is a worse waste of space than a mule in the Mines of Moria. Well, unless he gets the idea that heaven is for chumps and evil is cool. In that case the blackguard or the anti-paladin allow him to get back all of his powers twisted to do the opposite. Welcome to the dark side. Since being evil is all about the easy way (well and not bothering with the greater good, otherwise you would be neutral) that's easy. The gods of darkness, blood and murder embrace you. Wooooooo.
Now there are two ugly problem with that in the otherwise nicely symmetrical cosmology. If you drop out of paladin school without going all the way to kicking puppies and sacrificing virgins you are screwed. Bad paladin, no powers for you. Why is that? The other thing is that a blackguard or anti-paladin can go nowhere. It doesn't matter if they go into neutral territory or all the way to good, no one will accept them and give them powers. A level 20 anti-paladin who is redeemed is a knight of the sad countenance. Seems that the good gods aren't that much into redemption after all.
I would really like it if there would be multiple "divine champion" classes for the different alignments, especially now that the cavalier, samurai and hellknight beat up the paladin to take his most important class feature. Atonement would allow them to switch between the archetypes on an alignment change. Of course if someone tries to do that too often he could run out of gods he hasn't annoyed yet.

The good news? I found someone the preview text convinced to pledge 15 $. The better news? I upped my pledge to 45 $ to get the adventure and the other Kaidan products.

The bad news? 7388 $ left until the Player's Guide gets made. :(

Detect Magic wrote:

An aside, I love how the Redeemer lacks Detect Evil. Perhaps an idealistic fellow out to save the world is a bit naive, lacking the "sense" for it!


It's a great way to waste smites. That's why I had a brilliant idea for a pair of NPCs who travel together. She's an aasimar Tranquil Guardian/Drunken Master and he's a half-orc Redeemer/Rogue (both gestalts). Tranquil Guardian and Redeemer were made for each other. :D


Brinymon DeGuzzler wrote:
Faith and belief are powerful things. If the majority of society "believe" and/or have "faith" that what they are doing is considerd "righteous" by their god then who or what deems their actions as evil or wrong?

In our world? People who are slightly smarter. In Pathfinder? The good gods, angels, archons, agathions and azata.

The rogue has lots of skill points, he's good at stealth, has awesome class features (trap sense, evasion etc.) and is decent in a fight even though he should have backup for the flanking bonus. I would almost like the ranger better (and did so in 3.5) but now I don't really get warm with his class features and the capstone ability anymore, however now the inquisitor is slowly replacing the rogue for me. Not as dependent on friends and sweet divine spellcasting. :D

Brinymon DeGuzzler wrote:
It is the motivation behind the torture. I have yet to hear of a person raping someone or something for the greater good.

Rape can be torture too. You mean if a villain laughs about hot irons, doesn't care when his/her nails are pulled out and breathes in deeply during waterboarding just to spite you but is deathly afraid of being raped you mean you wouldn't do it even if the fate of the world is at stake?

Brinymon DeGuzzler wrote:
Rape undead? you are sick?

Oh come on, Vampires and humans having sex or something equivalent is faaaaaar older than Twilight. Dhampires have to come from somewhere.

Ryu Kaijitsu wrote:
I would say that would fit well for a chaotic good necrophile that fights undead XD

Aside from the fact that necrophilia and goodness pretty much exclude each other (corpse desecration is considered evil) why the crap do people attach things like torture and rape to the chaotic side of the law/chaos axis? Does it have anything to do with the fact that the only chaotic alignment left in 4E is chaotic evil?

LazarX wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
It's entirely possible to make iron armor look like glistening gold with a cantrip.
For an hour until the effect wears off.

I think the point was that it is an incredibly simple magic effect. Those on magic arms & armour are permanent anyways, so it could be simply belong to the overall effect of the specific enchantment.

"As is" items were always strange to me. I got into D&D through Baldur's Gate II. There I found Carsomyr a two-handed Holy Avenger. When I got into the P&P (3.X at that time) a Holy Avenger was a "cold iron longsword". That always bothered me. Are longswords holier than other weapons? Why don't all lawful good deities have them as favoured weapons then? Houserule time...

Still, where RAW is concerned I would consider "as is" magic items to be made out of the appropriate standard material for the item (usually steel or wood) unless it's specifically said that they are not.

Gandal wrote:

Whoops, forgot to tell.

Yes, the rogue said she wanted that elven woman,but rolled low on Bluff, and the gnoll chieftain wasn't convinced enough.
The dwarf cleric said "He wants to sell her, so they won't kill her, and my spells will cure every wounds and even make the scars disappear once we'll have bought her" (which again i think it is metagaming too much)

Sorry, but I don't understand. Why bluff? Was she trying to "reserve" her so she could buy her later (later being after they have killed the gnolls)? Did they not have enough money? Because I would react kind of miffed if I go to the bakery and the vendor doesn't want to sell me buns because he doesn't believe me. I guess his boss would feel the same way....

Brinymon DeGuzzler wrote:
How so?

How not? You mean because they are evil? By that logic some thiefs, con artists and burglars who never physically harmed another being can be tortured too without it being evil. Or is it because they are evil "by nature"? In that case one has to argue what "by nature" is. They are spawned with their alignment, but is it unchangeable? The Fallen Angel is a pretty common trope, heck the devils have their own monster for that. If angels can fall, demons and devils can rise.

Torture is never a good act. Period. Pathfinder is a system of moral absolutes. It doesn't care if you summon a succubus to get someone out of a burning building with her fire immunity and flight abilities. You summoned an evil outsider into the world and that is an evil act. You also saved someone's life so you performed a good act at the same time. While that may cancel out alignment shifts it does not change the fact that you performed a minor evil act.

Wicht wrote:
I'm not sure which aspect of the Samurai as portrayed in fiction annoys you but would be interested in knowing. While individual players can portray their Samurai characters however they want, Kaidan will present them as a social caste with both savory and unsavory characters.

It's the same problem as with their Wikipedia article. The whole "complete, unthinking obedience to one's master and suicide after his death" deal. If you are a good guy or a bad guy as a samurai depends on your master. Not mentioning what havoc you can wreak in a system like that when you are in a fantasy world with shapechange and domination magic....

Wicht wrote:
Glad to have you on board Navarion. We'll try to make sure and include ninjas just for you. :D

Aww, thanks. ;) I already upped my pledge, I hope it hits the 3000 soon.


It's not just in RPGs, every time I encounter samurai in fiction I get the urge to bang my head against a wall (most recently with the webcomic Samurai's Blood). Usually the same feeling I get when discussing the paladin code or hellknights. :D If Kaidan would be first time where it is differently that would be great. If not it still has ninjas and samurai-eating monsters. :D

I pledged 20 $ and I'm thinking about upping it to 25 in the hope that we'll get the player's guide... And I have absolutely no idea why. :D I hate horror (stories, movies, rpgs etc.) and I don't like the medieval Japanese culture such fantasy settings are usually inspired by (When reading the Legend of the Five Rings setting for 3.X I could only think of characters who would have felt the need to kill any samurai in the party in their sleep, really samurai is the next step on the annoyance chart right after the badly-played paladin.) except for Ninjas.... Why in the Nine Hells am I looking forward to Kaidan?o_o

No reference. It's just that there seem to be two types of Amazons in fantasy literature. The Greek ones (in Wonder Woman or The Dark Eye) use armor inspired by that of Greek soldiers from antiquity (more or less, that of TDE amazons stops above the breasts and leaves the shoulders free) swords and shields, and "jungle amazons" who barely wear anything and prefer weapons like spears. Calling them Amazonas Amazons was a translation mistake, in English what I know as Amazonas is called Amazon River (allegedly named that way by explorers because the Indian tribes there had fighting women.)

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