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FullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 145 posts. 8 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 10 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Cheliax

quote:
mdt wrote:
Cigaw1 wrote:
mdt wrote:
Cigaw1 wrote:
While an eidolon summoned, what happens if a summoner enters an extra dimensional space, but the eidolon doesn't?

Eidelon goes POOF!

Can then be resummoned.

Or they can just enter together, in contact.

If the summoner goes first, he's more than X feet from the eidelon, and it goes poof. Same if the Eidelon goes first.

so you would say as long as we remained in contact the eidolon would not poof. say the eidolon maintained contact with me as he carried me around in a bag of holding or portable hole

No, if you both enter at the same time, then you'd be ok. If you are in the bag, and the eidelon is carrying it, the bag falls to the ground as soon as you enter it because the eidelon goes poof.

If you both want to enter a portable hole, for instance, then you need to be in contact the whole time.

What is your reasoning behind this? I would think that the bag of holding would count as where the summoner's location, when determining the maximum distance the eidolon can be away from the summoner. The space inside the bag, while much bigger, doesn't exactly exist in the way we think of distance and volume. You would occupy all points within the bag of holding at any point of time, in accordance with quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle. You would be Schrodinger's cat, but instead of figuring out if you're dead or alive, it's trying to figure out the distance between you and the entrance to the bag of holding. The only way for anyone outside the bag of holding to figure that out is to reach in and pull you out of the bag of holding, at which point the question no longer exists.

Life Link wrote:

Starting at 1st level, a summoner forms a close bond with his eidolon. Whenever the eidolon takes enough damage to send it back to its home plane, the summoner can sacrifice any number of hit points. Each hit point sacrificed in this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the eidolon. This can prevent the eidolon from being sent back to its home plane.

In addition, the eidolon and the summoner must remain within 100 feet of one another for the eidolon to remain at full strength. If the eidolon is beyond 100 feet but closer than 1,000 feet, its current and maximum hit point totals are reduced by 50%. If the eidolon is more than 1,000 feet away but closer than 10,000 feet, its current and maximum hit point totals are reduced by 75%. If the eidolon is more than 10,000 feet away, it is immediately returned to its home plane. Current hit points lost in this way are not restored when the eidolon gets closer to its summoner, but its maximum hit point total does return to normal.

I'm guessing that sentence is why the idea is that they'd poof as soon as you entered the bag of holding, but there's no possible way for them to be more than 10,000 feet away while inside the bag of holding, because as stated above you are everywhere within the bag of holding at the same time. If the GM says your position within the bag of holding isn't as such, then the bag of holding's interior simply isn't big enough for you to be further than 10k feet away. If the issue is that you are no longer on the same plane of existence, then it gets tricky. You haven't actually left the plane of existence. You aren't exactly anywhere. If the bag gets destroyed, everything inside of it just kind of nulls.

The question of if you are still on the same plane is something I could see a perfectly valid argument against, and your eidolon would poof. I would say that you'd be fine, as long as you've got a bottle of air to suck on. Otherwise you suffocate, and your eidolon goes poof after 10 minutes.

Cheliax

Since no one has said it yet, I must add it. Holy thread necro batman!

If you guys haven't yet, Walter's Guide to the Magus is something you all should read. What it comes down to is this. The Dex magus will have better AC, and have difficulty hitting at low levels. The Str magus will have an easier time hitting, but his AC will be b!~!*+*s compared to the Dex magus. They will end up doing almost the exact same amount of damage at 10-12th level.

Another option I've found that works great (provided you Gm credit boost it up to level, or your home game starts at 6th) is a Kensai Bladebound Magus with a single level of Aldori Swordlord. The biggest issues people have with a Dex based magus is that when you start wearing armor, your dex gets restricted. This isn't a problem, because you can't wear armor as a Kensai. Put on those bracers of armor, bump them up a +1 whenever you get the chance. You're bladebound, so you're getting a free +5 weapon. An Aldori Dueling Sword, to be exact. Also, you get your int as a dodge bonus to your AC. So you've only got three stats to worry about, Dex, Int, and Con, and they all help you stay alive or kill everything. The Aldori Sword Lord lets you use your dex instead of your strength the the Aldori Dueling Sword, and gives you some more armor as a shield bonus. I wouldn't advice taking more than a single level of the Aldori Sword Lord, as the main reason you want it is at 1st level.

This build will be awful until 6th level. There is no doubt about that. Your crit range will be the same as the strength magus. But, this build will get you the best armor as a magus, some really cool flavor, and you'll get a glorious initiative roll, some great absolutely stunning crit damage (perfect strike your keen black blade to a 17-20/x3. Go ahead. Shocking grasp them for 30d6 at 10th level), and you'll also have the satisfaction of saying, "I'm not a dervish dancer magus", if that's your cup of tea.

Cheliax

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Have you had any PFS paladins at your table? Have you explained your attitude towards the class' restrictions prior to play?

The paladins class explains it.

And again, I'm more than willing to look the other way for a paladin that breaks the rules "just this once" as far as the lawful/respect authority thing goes because being good is more important to them.

A hellknight is just as inflexible on law as a paladin is on good. THATS where I think the problem comes from.

I can also toss the player a bone. IE in First steps I, I can have the scarzini guy look the paladin up and down, tell the paladin to go move some boxes in the back, then turn to the more larceny minded and tell them whats going on, and then when the paladin comes back play it off as a regular delivery.

"It would appear we have reached an impasse." There seems to be a discrepancy in how the majority of those on this thread define authority as legitimate, and how you yourself do. At this point I would advice you open a new thread in the pathfinder society board, or the rules board, and argue your case there. Because as stated, we have reached an impasse.

Cheliax

Chaotic characters recognize a guard as having legitimate authority and disobeys their commands anyway. Do you have the authority to command me? If yes, I'm going to ignore those commands, and give me your money. If no, I'm going to ignore those commands, and give me your money.

A neutral character doesn't care if the individual has authority, they're going to do what's best for them, sometimes following authority and sometimes not. It doesn't mater if that authority is legitimate.

A lawful character disobeying the commands of someone they don't recognize as having legitimate authority is not chaotic. It is in fact the very idea of the lawful alignment. Do you have the authority to command me? If yes, I will follow those commands. If no, I have no reason to listen to what you say.

You're confusing the idea of a lawful character with a character that obeys laws. They aren't the same thing.

And yes, atoning for your hellknight code transgressions does in fact solve this. Regardless of any personal qualms with the solution, it is a pathfinder society acceptable solution that follows the rules written for hellknights and paladins, and their specific code of conducts. It doesn't mater if the solution seems distasteful to an individual. The rulings of a home game don't work here. Do it by the book, and this is how it works, by the book.

Cheliax

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Cop: "you're under arrest"

Paladin: "Greatsword to the face!"

How is that respecting legitimate authority?

Would I make a paladin fall for any of those? No of course not. I don't want to be a prat to the player and I make a lot of concessions to the meta narrative that people want to sit down to a game and have a good time. A paladin simply bends their oath/the lawful part of their alignment "this one time" in an episode series and I never see it rise to the level of needing to drop their alignment over to NG.

A hellknight doesn't get that flexibility though. (with the exception of the non humans, i don't know if chelaxian law cares.. probably not.)

Actually, hellknights do get that flexibility. As far as I am aware, there are no modules that take place over the course of a week.

Council of Thieves Part 3, What Lies in Dust, Page 69 wrote:

Reckonings & Ex-Hellknights

All Hellknights adhere to a strict path of discipline, deviation from which is never taken lightly. Those who knowingly go against their order’s core philosophies, the Measure and the Chain (detailed in Pathfinder Adventure Path volume 28), are expected to undergo a reckoning. Reckonings are confessions wherein a Hellknight professes his crimes before a superior at his order’s citadel—or with another Hellknight or even alone if the citadel is unreachable. A reckoning is a half-hour-long ritual where the Hellknight exacts 1d6 points of damage upon himself for each infraction using the punishment favored by his order. The Hellknight cannot consciously accept magical healing until this damage heals naturally—accepting healing (willingly or not) counts as its own infraction. Reckonings must be faced within 1 week of an infraction, or else the Hellknight loses all of his supernatural abilities until his reckoning is faced.

What constitutes defiance of their code varies slightly from order to order, but at its core can be summarized as any act of lawlessness, defiance of a superior Hellknight, or aiding or ignoring the cause of chaos. The GM should inform a Hellknight player when his actions will result in an infraction, while the player should keep tally of such trespasses (rolling this number of d6s as damage at his next reckoning). Hellknights understand that situations exist where ignoring a crime might ultimately better aid the cause of law, yet are expected to punish themselves for such conscious oversights nonetheless.

A Hellknight who voluntarily ceases to be lawful or who is cast out of the knighthood by the decree of a legitimate leader of his order loses all the supernatural class features of the Hellknight prestige class. Hellknights are typically exiled from an order only after repeated and severe infractions against the Measure and the Chain or numerous acts that result in a change of alignment (GMs should make players blatantly aware of acts that might lead toward an alignment change). After being expelled from his order, a character may not progress any further in levels as a Hellknight. He regains his abilities and advancement potential if he is reaccepted by his order or another Hellknight faction, but such instances are exceedingly rare.

So what you do is you go about your daily business. Ignore the code of conduct for the Hellknight whenever a problem arises. Your paladin code of conduct is always going to be more important. Never violate that. Then you go to your citadel and flail yourself or whatever between modules. Because of the way time is handled between every time you play, you'll always have the time to heal those wounds naturally. Batabing bataboom, you're good.

Also, your argument implies that all cops are legitimate authority figures. I will tell you right now, if my paladin was in Razmaran, he would not recognize the faith barges or the enforcers as legitimate. He would not recognize their authority or their deity as existing, because for him they don't. Guards are sometimes nothing more thugs with a shiny badge. In order for a guardsman or a officer of a city to be considered legitimate, they need to be recognized as such first. No guards are considered authority figures until that recognition is given. To use a real world example, lets look at the American civil war.

"You southern states can't break away from the US and form your own country, that's illegal!"
"Yeah, so? We don't follow your laws, we're our own country."

Do you see where I'm coming from? It's like how a UN resolution to ban white phosphorous in warfare exists, but the US didn't sign it so we still use it. To quote Game of Thrones (Video link if you are unfamiliar, YouTube), "Power resides where men believe it resides." Bael believes power only resides in authority figures he has decided have power. So that Razmiran priest is nothing more than a bandit trying to capture him. Dead. That Andoran "noble" is nothing more than a thief and a scoundrel, causing suffering to those around him. No qualms with slicing and dicing then. The act of murder itself is wrong, yes. But in the case of the priest, he's simply defending himself from an attacker. In the case of the noble, he's lessening the suffering of the poor and weak. It can be justified.

This isn't always the case, though. Killing babies? Bael isn't cool with that. Burning down churches of good deities? No bueno. Most actions cannot be defended against. Killing people just happens to be one that can be argued. If the cop attempting to arrest Bael has a legitimate claim to authority in Bael's view, then he will submit to that authority. He has done so before, in fact, in the module Our Lady of Silver. The day to day interactions of the characters in game are much too complex, if you are running with players who actually build characters, and not just dice rolling machines, to ever use blanket statements. It really, really does have to be a case by case basis. Bael grew up in Chiliax, but he doesn't recognize Asmodan as an actual god, nor any evil god for that matter. As a player I know that yes, they are gods. But as a character, he sees worshipers to these beings as misguided souls who need redemption at best, and heretics who should be put down at worst. But I can never say all followers of Asmodan should be put down, because not all of them should be. The deity is a false one, but each person is unique and should be judged separately. Once judged however, he will issue forth the punishment that they deserve, as a Helladin (I love it, by the way) should do.

Cheliax

quote:
Valeria Wintrish wrote:

I'll echo a lot of what's been said here. I'll add too that even in the Cheliax faction, I was never called on to do anything that outright violated my code as a paladin of Iomedae or Hellknight of the Order of the Nail. That being said, faction missions during every mission have been phased out, and for season 5 I am very leery of the Paracountess's intentions with the valiant defenders of Nerosyan.

Mechanically, Valeria is a Shining Knight Paladin 5/Order of the Nail Hellknight 3/Lore Oracle (legalistic/sidestep secret) 1. Legalistic works really well with being a hellknight. Boon companion for a full-level Axebeak mount with the order of the Nail's Onslaught makes for some fun charges. Smite Evil + Smite Chaos + Gauntlet of the Inheritor's Evil Outsider Bane + Cornugon Smash + Ancestral Scorn is going to be making the whole Worldwound cry this season.

I'm a little torn between the Silver Smite Bracelets and Bracers of the Avenging Knight. The bracers are cheaper, but I believe would boost both the paladin AND hellknight smites. But the bracelets would add an extra smite per day...might be worth it.

One last note to The Morphling....make sure you have a copy of the Inner Sea World Guide to get access to the prestige class. It's pretty clear that that isn't where you've been researching it, since you used the d20pfsrd's altered nomenclature.

You are correct, the Bracers of the Avenging Knight are in every way better than silver smite bracelets. Do that instead! Bael was 11th and 2 pips before UE came out, alas, and I didn't even know that the Bracers of the Avenging Knight existed.

Cheliax

Also a thought that you might want to consider is Ragathiel, the empyrael lord of vengeance, if you don't want to worship Iomadae, or find her too standard of a god. Sarenrae doesn't work quite right with the idea of a Hellknight. She's not lawful, and most hellknights' have alignments hovering between neutral and evil. it's perfectly acceptable for a paladin hellknight to worship Sarenrae, but you might run in to some RP'ing issues, or a DM who thinks your actions don't fall inside the realm of Sarenrae, and now you're out of paladin abilities. (Hellknight abilities are retained for up to a week after breaking the code of conduct, and sometime within that week you have to do a repentance in order to keep them. It's described in Council of Thieves, as well as the Guide to the Inner Sea, which is where the Hellknight class is located. I'd recommend buying it and reading all about the Hellknights. Paladin abilities go kaput the moment you break the rules though, so that's ouch).

Nate Lange:
Nate Lange wrote:


i like the idea of a pally/hell knight. +1 for switching to iomedae and to godclaw. i haven't really thought through the mechanics of it all, but a few inquisitor levels could be really interesting in the mix too?

I would advice against this. It works beautifully for roleplaying, however it really hurts your combat abilities. If you want to do that kind of hellknight, the inquisitor type, there is a prestiege class for it. It's called the Hellknight Signifer. They work as both arcane and divine casters, and are in fact better eldritch knights than eldritch knights are.

Cheliax

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I can weigh in on this! My 12th level character, who is eagerly awaiting for when we get a local Eyes of the Ten going, is a Human Cavalier (1) Paladin (7) Hellknight (4). His name is Silver Crusader Bael of Iomadae, and has taken the Oath of Vegence, and the Oath Against Fiends. I agree with what thefortier said, and think that Iomadae would work much better for a paladin hellknight than Sarenrae would, for various reasons.

Bael is a stern Chelishman, born in Westcrown, and I try my best to play that into his play-style. He acts with utter certainty and confidence, his upbringing formulating his mind into a military one of rules and laws, and he only deviates from his plan if his allies or bystanders are in danger. He charges into battle with the fury of a thousand angels, and a thousand devils. His words are few, but when he speaks, it shakes others to their core with his conviction. He believes truly the only way to uphold the law, and to save the innocent, is to slaughter every creature that would do wrong. There are no exceptions in his wrath, no mercy for the wicked. Anyone evil and chaotic is smote with extreme prejudice. Out of combat, he is still a terrifying, mountain of a man. He does not have the kind touch a paladin normally carries. Instead, his touch is reserved for those of cruelty, and attempts to return the cruelty thrice-fold.

I play him as dark and scary. He makes children cry whenever they see him, but it isn't because he is trying to. Rather, he is a demonslayer by profession. His entire existence (And his entire build) is based around slaughtering evil creatures from other realms, or taking those of the material plane who wish harm on the innocent and doing his damnedest to make sure they stop breathing. He's haunted by the memories of the people he couldn't save, and the allies he held as they took their last breath. And there has been more than one ally that has died on him before. After fighting abominations for years on end, he's in a permanent state of trauma and dissociation. He loves all of those who do good and uphold the law, but he has been bathed in the bold of demons too many times for him to show it. He does what he does for them, and he can't even smile when he sees them safe.

Mechanically speaking, Gendarme Cavalier archetype, with the Order of the Star. Paladin Oath of Vegeance and Against Fiends. Hellknight, with the Order of the Godclaw. He has Intimidate maxed out, and has taken several feats to maximize its usage. Here's how I have him built out at 12th level, in case you were looking for tips.

Silver Crusader Bael of iomadae:

Human (Chelish heritage)
20 point buy as follows at first level
18 + 2 racail = 20 STR
13 DEX
14 CON
7 INT
7 WIS
13 CHA

4th Level Ability Increase to CHA
8th Level Ability Increase to DEX
12th Level Ability Increase to WIS

+6 Belt of Giant Strength
+4 Headband of Alluring Charisma

26 STR
14 DEX
14 CON
7 INT
8 WIS
18 CHA

1st Level: Cavalier 1 (Gendarme, Order of the Star (Iomadae))
Power Attack (From cavalier level)
Step up (Human bonus feat)
Furious Focus

2nd Level: Paladin 1 (Oath against fiends, Oath of Vengeance)

3rd Level: Paladin 2
Following Step

4th Level: Paladin 3
Fatigued Mercy

5th Level: Paladin 4
Blind Fight

6th Level: Hellknight 1 (Order of the Godclaw)

7th Level: Hellknight 2
Step up and Strike

8th Level: Paladin 5
Weapon bond

9th Level: Hellknight 3
Pantamic Faith (Travel Domain)
Compulsion force of will
Curnogon Smash

10th Level: Hellknight 4

11th Level: Paladin 6
Deadful Carnage
Dazed mercy

12th level: Paladin 7

A note I've found on any and every character ever that is a paladin. GET A SILVER SMITE BRACELET. I have seen many, many, many paladins at high level tables that don't have one. Even if you only have one level of paladin, that is THE BEST 16K you could ever spend. As for the rest of the equipment, tailor it to your needs. Bael uses a big greatsword. It is in fact a +1 Holy Cold Iron Greatsword. He has a pair of Inheritor's Gauntlets on, for when he needs to bane his weapon against evil outsiders for a little more umph. He's got a Cloak of the Dark Tapestry. He throws a +1 on his hellknight armor whenever he has any extra gold. He also carries a bronze griffon, because flying creatures outside are annoying.

I hope your hellknight paladin goes glorious! And I hope any of this helps.

Cheliax

Quote:
TGMaxMaxer wrote:
Berti Blackfoot wrote:

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

If so, Variant Cha/Str Tiefling.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Cheliaxians look down on teiflings?

Depends on if they're Devil types or Demon types of parentage.

Chelaxians worship devils (lawful) and use them often. They hate demons (chaotic).
So a demon hating devilborn tiefling is fine.

Actually, so is a demon hating demonborn tiefling with the right story, as most demonic offspring aren't the product of voluntary procreation.

Blood Of Fiends, Page 8 wrote:
Cheliax: Although tieflings are more common in Cheliax than in most other places on Golarion, they are despised and unwelcome, second-class citizens who bring shame on their houses. Cheliax strives for purity, and though one might think the infusion of infernal blood into a mortal’s family tree might elevate that family, exactly the reverse is true—the official line of Cheliax is that power comes through controlling and binding devils, and actually mating with one is a perversion at best and a show of weakness at worst. Of course, this general attitude also breeds a certain secret fascination among the decadent, bored, and rebellious, and even nobles may sometimes seek out tiefling lovers, bodyguards, and blood-sport fighters. It should be noted, however, that this strange love-hate relationship extends only to tieflings whose ancestry is infernal or in question— those of obviously demonic heritage, or who voluntarily identify as such, are rarely tolerated within Cheliax’s cities. Only the fact that most people can’t tell one type of tiefling from another allows demon-blooded tieflings to operate within the Hell-bonded nation.

Cheliax

We're talking about a lawyer people, and no one has mentioned the bard yet? For shame, for shame. A sound striker bard / diabolist would be glorious (though going straight bard would be mechanically better). When you use weird words on someone, it could be role played along the lines of your character invoking laws and doctrines in order to remove the threat from the area. "In recognition of section seven, paragraph 3, sub-paragraph 2 of the Articles of Thune of 1022, you are in violation of provisions blah blah blah blah..." (A prospect which certainly would cause me physical pain in real life!). Focus on enchantment, conjuration, and illusion spells.

Cheliax

Alright. So. I was in a PFS game a little while back, playing a level 7 Bladebound Kensai Magus / Aldori Swordlord. There was a player at the game, and he was playing a character that was a mix of fighter and rogue. The Gm I know from playing with several times with before and trust his judgement on such maters, and he seemed to be okay with what this fighter+rogue was doing. I myself am perfectly fine with what he was doing, but I simply don't know how he did it. I don't have his name, so I can't contact him to figure it out.

What he was doing was as follows. He would run around enemies, deliberately provoking AoO's. When the monsters missed, they would be denied their dex bonus, at which point he would sneak attack them with (usually) a shield bash. He had high armor and was wearing fullplate. It was a glorious build and I want to try it, I simply don't know how to do it. If someone wouldn't mind helping me out here, I would greatly appreciate the insight. What seems like the most likely build he had going on in order to pull off this wonderful trick? I'm fairly adept at creating characters, but I can't make any headway on my own.

Preedmptive: No, it wasn't feint. At least I don't believe it was. There wasn't a bluff check involved, and he always tried to provoke from them. He usually only did this little trick when there wasn't the opportunity to flank with someone. He did normal flank procedure when it was available.

Cheliax

I was wondering what you guys think about Agent of the Grave. More specifically, if it was planned on being taken, what is the best way to go around doing that. As far as I am aware, the proper necromancer builds are pretty limited, and are as follows:

-Wizard with the Necromancy arcane school (and possibly the Undead subschool)

-Gravewalker Witch

-Undead Lord Cleric

The Juju oracle doesn't interest me, nor does the alchemist necromancer type. I know I would want to focus on necromancy and conjuration spells. So Spell Focus (Necromancy) is a must, so I can get Skeleton Summoner, as well as Undead Master. I might want to get Augment Summoning but that means I'd have to get another Spell Focus feat, which I don't know if it'd be worth it.

Do you guys think investing in the Craft Construct feat chain would be worth it, in order to mold my very own Flesh Golem? This is an evil campaign, so worry not about the fact that I have to butcher at least 6 people in order to build one. Which of the three class options seems to work best in your opinions? 15 point buy, in case it comes up.

Cheliax

Mojorat wrote:
Its not really something you can figure out without the book. You should go over it all with your gm.

I do have the book. Picked it up from GenCon.

So mythic ranks are tracked separately from levels then. Gotcha. Thanks for the replies.

Cheliax

As the title suggests, this post is about how you apply mythic ranks. I'm a little confused by that. I'm joining in a game in a couple weeks and was told that we were going to start at level 9, and should have a mythic rank. How is this done? Is it counted as a level on the character? The Mythic Adventurers book says that you have to have a source for your awesomeness, no problem. The character is going to be a cleric of Urgathoa, using the "Granted" form of ascension. It's also going to be a Hierophant, focusing on necromancy and minions. But where do I go from there? How is gaining a mythic rank handled? Is gaining a mythic rank just like taking a level in another class? That would mean, starting at 9th level, I'd be Cleric (Undead Lord) 8, Mythic (Hierophant) 1.

I'm probably just overlooking something stupidly obvious, but if someone could clarify this for me, it'd be great.

Cheliax

The Airborne Ambusher for the Strix seems to me to be, to me, an interesting archetype for the strike-then-run-away kind of fighter. But it got me to thinking. A Strix has wings. It can fly up. Gravity hurts everyone. This thought process lead to the conclusion of a grappling Strix that drags creatures straight up, then drops them.

For the sake of argument, assume that the campaign this character takes place in occurs only in either A)Open fields; or B)Inside caves with ceilings at least 100 feet high. What do you guys think would be the best way to build this kind of a character, one that swoops down, grabs the baddy, and then just drops them from 60-100 feet up?

Yes, Feather Fall can make this entire build null. And I know a lot of baddies will have a caster available in their team that can cast a quick feather fall on whoever is being dropped. Ring of counter-spells with a feather fall put in it could be used to negate this. Do a slight of hand to put it in the pocket, or on the hand of the person I'm dropping, before they get dropped. Counters the feather fall, they fall to their death.

EDIT: Assume a 15 point buy, starting at 10th level

RE-EDIT: It doesn't have to be a Airborne Ambusher, it just has to Strix. Monk might be better, fighter might be better, heck, a magus might be better. Just the idea being a Strix, flying down, grabbing someone, dropping them from altitude.

Cheliax

One more question. Tengus. They have the ability to get a claw attack. Does this mean that their hands end in claws? There's a bunch of fan art of them having as such, but for actual Pazio art I have for refrence, their hands are... obscured. Their feet are clearly shown as being clawed though.

Cheliax

Claxon wrote:

As Halfing Barbarian pointed out, you are dead wrong. Don't try to make arguments based on Wikipedia or the dictionary, the have virtually 0 relevance to Pathfinder as a game.

Also, when I said animals what I meant was things from the bestiary. They break the rules. Reality has no bearing on the game world. The Devs say claws go on hands, talons go n feet.

please link to wear the devs said talons are always feet claws, when the only mention of the word talon that I could find is on beastiary entries on birds and dinosaurs

Cheliax

Kazaan wrote:
The idea is that a creature with 4 or more legs can have claws on the front-most legs that are effective for normal attacks. A lion, while having claws on all 4 feet, will rear up to make what are mechanically "claw" attacks in Pathfinder with only the front two. In order to utilize the claws on the rear legs, the lion must Pounce and use Rake. This, by extension, would apply to other creatures who have more than 4 legs. If a hypothetical animal with 8 legs had claws on all 8 of them, it would still only be able to make Claw natural attacks with the two front-most legs and the rest would need to be used as Rakes on a Pounce attack. Claws on hands don't suffer any restrictions because we don't use our hands for walking and, even if we did (ie. gorillas), they would effectively be the same as the front claws on a quadruped. So, a better answer to the question should be that you can get claws on your feat, but to use them, you need to Pounce and Rake with them; you can't use them on just a normal attack or full-attack.

alright. So barbarians with the greater beast totem can utilize feet claws then? That's the only way I am aware of for a humanoid pc to get pounce.

Cheliax

Halfling Barbarian wrote:
Out of the mouth of SKR: Please stop trying to break the game

thank you for answering the question. That was all that was required. And I'm not trying to break the game. If that were the case, Zen archer. Or synthesist summoner. I had a valid question for something that I could not find the definition for

Cheliax

Claxon wrote:

The Devs have already said that yes, animals break the rules. PCs do not though. This is a question that has come up several times. I can't recall if there is an FAQ about it, but the answer is no.

Again, claws go on hands, talons go on feet. There aren't currently no abilities that provide talons on feet to my knowledge.

You are wrong. Talons belong in two places. 1) Birds. 2)Dinosaurs. Anything else claiming to have talons is lying. Here is a link defining the word claw and talon. In mammals, claws are called nails. Claw is the generalized term for all sharp pointing things on the end of limbs made out of keratin (and sometimes not even at the end of limbs, my dog has dew claws about halfway up the metatarsals).

It is already explained that mammals in pathfinder can get claw attacks. See Tieflings, Catfolk, and Ratfolk. In all of these examples, they call them Claws. Even though in mammals, the correct term is nail. So ignoring the fact that talons don't even come into play here, we get back to the original question. Can humanoids get claw attacks on their feet. This is a 111 post long page discussing this exact issue in which a grand total of [b]0 things[/url] were accomplished. This gets even more difficult with the addition of materials such as Feral Combat Training, which is designed to let the more-beast-like monk use their claws and bites and tail swipes as part of a flurry of blows.

Cheliax

Claxon wrote:
Claws go on hands only. Talons go on feet only.

I'm just going to leave this here....

Cheliax

ShadowcatX wrote:

Legs / feet are not able to claw things on a humanoid.

AFAIK you'd just take the best set of claws.

even with levles of monk?

Cheliax

Say I'm a tiefling. And I'm taking the dragon disciple prestige class. As part of my tiefling build, I take the maw or claw alternative racial trait. I choose claws. Can I still grow claws from the dragon bloodline? What if I choose to not wear shoes, can I do it then? I'd have two limbs available for clawing things. Same question applies to catfolk that take the draconic bloodline

Cheliax

What is your advice beyond that? Remember, the character will be taking dragon disciple when he is eligible. Also, though the thread is title pseudo werewolf, don't focus too much on the fur-covered behemoth bit. It is more about specializing a tiefling dragon disciple in the use of claws and bites and such. Levels of alchemist might be nice, as I could take the extra limbs as well as the feral mutagen to get additional claw attacks every round.

this is an odd question, but the dragon bloodline gives claws. Could you say those are on your feet, provided you aren't wearing shoes?

EDIT: for the purpose of making the werewolf bit less important, and more about the natural attacks, assume the vestigial wings alternative racial trait is going to be taken. Now it is more dragon disciple focused

Cheliax

Did you attend GenCon this year? There was a boon that you could win that gave your character the option to spend 4 PP and gain proficiency in one of four things, one of which was a breastplate. You don't gain the proficiency with all armors of that type, so no wearing chainmail or what have you, but it's a thought.

Cheliax

So I had this synthesist summoner a while back for PFS that I loved to play. He was one of the most fun characters ever. But there's a problem. They banned them. He got replaced with a magus, which is fine and dandy. They're great too. But it just isn't the same. To explain what this synthesist summoner did, let me show you what he looked like in an Academy of Secrets game I played (back when you could just build a character for a pfs sanctioned module).

Lycho, my beloved summoner:
Half Elf Ranger (Shapeshifer archetype ) 2, Summoner (Synthesist archetype) 12
CG Large humanoid (Human, Elf, Outsider)
Init +5; SensesDarkvision 60 ft, Low Light Vision, Perception +28
---------------------
DEFENSES
---------------------
AC53, touch 16, flat-footed 47 (+8 armor, +4 shield, +3 Dex, -1 size, +25 natural, +4 deflect), 20% Miss chance
hp 231 (2d10+12d8+153)
Fort +15, Ref +14, Will +15
---------------------
OFFENSE
---------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee Claws of the Beast +30/+30 (7d6+20/x2, reach 10)
Draconic Claws +30/+30 (10d6+20/x2, reach 10)
Bite +30 (9d6+28/x2, reach 10)
Special Attacks Pounce
Bloody claws (5 bleed)
---------------------
STATISTICS
---------------------
Str 40, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 20
Base Atk +11; CMB +27; CMD 40
Feats Skill Focus (Perception), Eldritch Heritage (Draconic Bloodline, Red), Aspect of the Beast (Claws of the Beast), Improved Natural Weapon (Claws), Improved Natural Weapon (Bite), Extra Evolution, Extra Evolution, Extra Evolution, Toughness, Multiattack
Skills Intimidate +22, Perception +28, Spellcraft +20, Stealth +16, Use Magic Device +22
Languages Aklo, Celestial, Common, Elven, Sylvan, Undercommon
Combat Gear 2 Potion of Bloody Claws, 2 Potion of Strong Jaw, 2 Scroll of Greater Magic Fang; Other Gear Amulet of Mighty Fists (Shock and Frost), +6 Belt of Giant's Strength, +4 Ring of Protection, Minor Cloak of Displacement, Handy Haversack, +8 Bracers of Armor
---------------------
EVOLUTIONS
---------------------
Quadruped base form
Energy Attacks (Acid)
Improved Natural Armor
Improved Natural Armor
Improved Natural Armor
Improved Damage (Bite)
Improved Damage (Claws)
Ability Increase (Strength)
Ability Increase (Strength)
Large
Magic Attacks
Pounce

This is what he looked like after he got his buffs up, right before he would go eat someone. The idea of the character was, as the title implies, a werewolf. I've always liked the idea of playing one, and this was as close as I could get. Lycho was broken. He was overpowered and wrong. Because of him, I'm the reason you can't have nice things. He would fling himself into battle, charging the nearest creature and biting it, usually a one hit kill. Then he'd have four more attacks to hit the next closest creature with, all of which could usually bring something down on their own. It was sick, and borderline disturbing.

I want to play that again. A more power-appropriate version of him, so I can sit down at a table and not over-power everyone and everything the instant combat starts. I don't think that doing so is possible without the Synthesist summoner, which you can't be anymore, so that shouldn't be a problem. But, I still do want to feel powerful. Just not... this powerful. A gimpy character that uses claw attacks, yeah, would technically be the same idea. But playing him shouldn't be boring.

I've got a few ideas on how to do this, but I need some help with it. I think being a Tiefling would be a good choice here, taking the Qlippoth-spawn heritage, and the Maw alternative racial trait. Claw attacks seem easier to get than bite attacks. I would like him to go into Dragon Disciple eventually, as it will get me some more strength bonuses, some natural armor, and some other little things. Now, dragon disciples do require you to be able to cast arcane spells to get in, so that'd mean taking a level of either bard, sorcerer, or summoner, because getting the bite attack for tieflings trades away your spell like ability, which could have acted as a perquisite to get in if it's kept. Sorcerer seems the most obvious choice, but that's completely up in the air as to what I'd take. Also, I want to take a couple levels of Ranger, because of feats and general good-ness. Taking the natural weapon combat style, of course, and probably the Shapeshifter archetype.

What do you guys think? What's the best path here? Any and all advice is welcome, provided it's constructive! And yes, I know I should be ashamed of Lycho. He loved to slaughter, and he did it the best I could make him do it.

Cheliax

Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:
I don't think that Thassilonian Specialists are a legal option for PFS.

Thassilionian Specialist DO NOT OPEN IF YOU ARE NOT READY FOR SPOILERS:
If you play "The waking rune" you have the option to make one
Cheliax

Sorry this one took so long to post, but here it is. Had to rework a bunch of stuff. This one is one of my favorites, and is all bits of exciting. When you reach level 11, provided you buy a +4 int handband, you should have 143 skill points. So that's something.

Selim Bradley, Pride the Arrogant:
Human

STR 10
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 20
WIS 7
CHA 13

Traits: Magical Knack (Witch) and Kuthite Caster

1st level: Wizard (Shadow subschool) 1
-Spell Focus (Illusion)
-Evolved Familiar (Skilled Evolution)
-Tenebrous Spell

2nd level: Witch 1 (Shadow patron)
-Misfortune hex

3rd level: Witch 2
-Cackle Hex
-Umbral spell

4th level: Witch 3

5th level: Fighter 1
-Arcane Armor Training
-Shadow Grasp

6th Level: Hellknight Signifer 1 (spell progression going to witch)

7th level: Hellknight Signifer 2
-Shadow Gambit
-Arcane Armor Mastery

8th level: Hellknight Signifer 3

9th level: Witch 4
-slumber hex
-Improved Familiar

10th level: Witch 5

11th Level: Witch 6
-Spell Penetration
-Flight Hex

When shown at 11th level, the stats will look like this

Pride the Arrogant at 11th level:

Human Wizard 1/ Witch 6 / Fighter 1 / Hellknight Signifer 3
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +9, empathic link with familiar
------------------------
DEFENSES
------------------------
AC 26, touch 14, Flat-Footed 24 (+11 Armor, +2 Dex, +1 Natural, +2 Deflect)
HP 79 (7d6+3d8+1d10+22)
Fort +10, Red +8, Will +10
------------------------
OFFENSIVE
------------------------
Speed 20 Ft
Melee Mwk Ranseur +8 (2d4+1/x3, reach) OR Mwk Longsword +8 (1d8+1/19-20)
Ranged Mwk Composite Longbow(+1) +9 (1d8+1/x3)
------------------------
SATISTICS
------------------------
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 26, Wis 7, Cha 13
Base Atk 6; CMB +7; CMD 21
Feats Spell Focus (Illusion), Evolved Familiar (Skilled Evolution), Tenebrous Spell, Umbral Spell, Arcane Armor Training, Shadow Grasp, Shadow Gambit, Arcane Armor Mastery, Improved Familiar, Spell Penetration
Skills Bluff +5, Climb +5, Craft(Alchemy) +22, Diplomacy +15, Disable Device +3, Escape Artist +3, Fly +16, Handel Animal +5, Heal +2, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (Arcana) +22 (Dungeoneering) +12 (Engineering) +12 (Geography) +12 (History) +12 (Local) +22 (Nature) +12 (Nobility) +12 (Planes) +22 (Religion) +15, Linguistics +22, Perception +9, Ride +6, Sense Motive +2, Sleight of Hand +3, Spellcraft +22, Stealth +3, Survival +2, Swim +5, Use Magic Device +15
Languages Common, Hallit, Osiriani, Shadowtongue, Shoanti, Skald, Tien, Vudrani, Ancient Osiriani, Azlanti, Thassilonian, Abyssal (From a boon), Aklo, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Draconic, Dwarven (From a boon), Elven, Ignan, Inferanl (From a boon), Terran, Undercommon
Combat Gear Oil of Bless Weapon, Potion of Invisibility, Potion of Fly Other Gear Ring of Deflection +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, +2 Mithral Hellknight Plate, Belt of Physical Perfection +2, Cloak of Resistance +3, Headband of Vast Intelligence +4, Mwk Ranseur, Mwk Longsword, Mwk Composite Longbow(+1) with 10 silver arrows, 10 Cold Iron arrows, 10 Adamantite Arrows, 20 Regular arrows, Metamagic Rod of Echoing Spell

I didn't write down the spell list because I honestly don't know it yet. He is a shadow withc, so he'll have darkness and deeper darkness. his familiar will be an imp once he gets to high enough level, which will allow him to bypass the whole "I can't see in deeper darkness" thing, because the imp can. The imp will be invisible almost all of the time outside of combat. 12th level will probably be a level of Diabolist, so he can get an imp Animal Companion with more "nifty stuff" than his familiar has. And that way the familiar can stay invisible and out of combat more often.

EDIT: I know this may not look like Pride the Arrogant on the surface, but I'm thinking of the version of him when he was inside Alphonse, using him like a puppet. Shadows that leaked out of the armor and could slice and dice anything, and then retreated back inside once he chose. Something more like this than this. Also, the ranseur is the closest thing to the spears that Edward and Alphonse love to create. And if I'm remembering correctly, Alphonse has made a sword before to fight with. No, I can't justify the bow --shrugs-- I'd also be grabbing a rod of something or other at some point, in addition to the Echoing rod.

Cheliax

I completely agree with those suggestions! However, I don't have a homebrew going right now, and even if I did, it'd be very hard for me to play 8 different characters regularly. PFS lets me at least have the chance to play one or two of them a week, alabit with some restrictions.

Cheliax

Howdy yall. Nanomd here. I've got a bit of a brain tickler for everyone to parse through. If you've seen the anime "Fullmetal Alchemest: Brotherhood" or have read the manga "Fullmetal Alchemist", then you are familiar with the Sins. The 8 homunculi are Wrath, Pride, Lust, Sloth, Envy, Gluttony, Greed, and Father (Also known as The Dwarf in the Flask). Well, I've been meaning to build these characters for PFS, and have a few of them nailed down already in a way I think works wonderfully. I've got Colonel Roy Mustang down pat as well.

Colonel Roy Mustang:
Elf: Arcane Focus alternate racial trait

STR 7
DEX 13
CON 12
INT 20
WIS 7
CHA 14

I fully understand that one level of sorcerer means that charisma of 14 does me almost nothing. However, with Daibolist being keyed off of charisma, I figured being able to deal half damage on my fireballs on anything (Due to channel hellfire) 3 times a day, as opposed to once with a 10 charisma, is worth it.

Traits: Wayan Spellhunter and Magical Lineage (Both on fireball)

1st level: Crossblooded Tattooed Sorcerer 1 (Gold Draconic & Orc)
-Varisian tattoo (Evocation)- From sorcerer level
-Elemental Focus (Fire)

2nd Level: Thassilonian Wrath Spellbinder wizard 1
-Spell Focus (Evocation)- from Wizard 1st

3rd Level: Thassilonian Wrath Spellbinder wizard 2
-Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)

4th Level: Thassilonian Wrath Spellbinder wizard 3

5th level: Thassilonian Wrath Spellbinder wizard 4
-Spell Specialization (Fireball)

6th Level: Thassilonian Wrath Spellbinder Wizard 5
-Empower Spell- From wizard 5th

7th level: Diabolist 1
-Spell penetration

8th level: Diabolist 2

9th level: Thassilonian Wrath Spellbinder Wizard 6
-Greater Spell Penetration

10th level: Thassilonian Wrath Spellbinder wizard 7

11th level: Thassilonian Wrath Spellbinder wizard 8
-Greater Elemental Focus (fire)

12th level: Thassilonian wrath spellbinder wizard 9

Führer King Bradley, Wrath the Furious:
Tiefling: Soul Seer alternative racial ability

STR 7
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 20
WIS 7
CHA 5

Traits: Twilight Zeal and Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp)

1st Level: Kensai Magus 1
-Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Dueling Sword)
-Weapon Focus (Dueling Sword)
-Weapon Finesse

2nd Level: Kensai Magus 2

3rd Level: Kensai Magus 3
-Dazzling Display
-Spell Shield Magus Arcana

4th Level: Kensai Magus 4

5th Level: Kensai Magus 5
-Arcane Stirke
-Combat Reflexes

6th Level: Aldori Swordlord 1
-Dueling Mastery

7th Level: Kensai Magus 6
-Intensified Spell
-Arcane Accuracy

8th level: Kensai Magus 7

9th Level: Kensai Magus 8
-Step Up

10th Level: Kensai Magus 9

11th Level: Kensai Magus 10
-Following Step

12th Level: Kensai Magus 11
-Step up and Strike

I have Pride built (Tiefling warrior 1/ Wizard (Shadow illusionist) 5/Hellknight Signifer 6), as well as Lust (Elf Fighter 1 / Spire Defender Magus 11 focusing on whip), and Sloth (Half-Orc Rage Prophet -- 'nough said). I will post those builds in the morning, but in the meantime, I'd like some advice for Gluttony, Greed, Envy, and Father. I do know I want Father to be a summoner (And for him to be the ONLY summoner out of the eight), but aside from that I don't have much to go on. Greed could be a monk of many styles using crane, turtle, and snake (Just an idea, one I'm not too crazy over). Base these concepts around the abilities seen in the show and the manga that the homunculi have, and lets see what madness can be done!

Cheliax

If you are wild shaping anyway, you're probably going to pick up Natural Spell, so it shouldn't really mater. But looking through some of the forums, this thread seems to jive with the idea that you don't need arms, just need them for somatic components of certain spells. I yield to the point that you don't need them.

Cheliax

As a note, there is a 1st level spell called Feather Step which allows you to ignore difficult terrain. There are also several items that can be purchased which allow you to ignore it a couple times per day, as well as the cleric travel domain 1st level ability

Cheliax

The freedom of movement would effectively negate every part of the slow spell, as the -1 to attack rolls, ac, and reflex saves are caused by the target moving slowly. Freedom of movement lets you move and attack normally.

Both the paralysis spell, and the paralyzed condition are ignored

Black tentacles cannot grapple you, and the difficult terrain generated by the spell is ignored. If the ground is difficult terrain because, let's say, a wall collapsed where you're trying to walk through and there are bricks everywhere, then it still counts as difficult terrain. The reason for the bricks from a collapsed wall still being difficult terrain vs the black tentacles not being difficult terrain is a little strange. The only reason black tentacles is difficult terrain is because, well. There's a spell there. If the spell was never cast, wallah, you can move at normal rate. The bricks however are not the result of a spell or spell like ability (even if the wall got torn apart by a fireball), and are therefore not ignored, as the spell Freedom of Movement does not say specifically you ignore difficult terrain. Therefore, you try and cross the rubble normally. What is normal in this case? Difficult terrain.

Cheliax

Dimensional Savant, Ultimate Combat page 96 wrote:

You flash into and out of reality so quickly it is impossible to tell exactly where you are at any given time.

Prerequisites: Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, Dimensional Dervish, ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, base attack bonus +9.

Benefit: While using the Dimensional Dervish feat, you provide flanking from all squares you attack from. Flanking starts from the moment you make an attack until the start of your next turn. You can effectively flank with yourself and with multiple allies when using this feat.

Yes. You can use the teamwork feat Precise Strike while using Dimensional Savant, as well as getting sneak attack dice if you have rogue levels. The target is flanked, so that sneak attack works. As far as precise strike, you are flanking with another individual who has the teamwork feat. Even though this individual is you, both people on either side of the flank has the feat, so you're good to go.

Cheliax

Depends on what he changed into, but follow this basic guide. First, is the Eidolon still his size or larger, so he can fit in it? If the answer is no, either the wild shape fails to activate, or the eidolon is dismissed, as it no longer fits around the character.

Fused Eidolon:
Fused Eidolon, Ultimate Magic page 80 wrote:

A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist’s movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon’s senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon’s temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.

While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present).

This ability replaces the class’s eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.

The following class abilities function differently for synthesist summoners.

Do you still have limbs with which you can cast spells with? If no, the eidolon is dismissed.

Providing that you are both the same size or smaller than your eidolon at this point, and you still have limbs to cast spells, you can now move on to the rest of your question. While you are fused with your eidolon, your physical stats are the same as its physical stats. Even if yours are better when you're in wild shape. As far as the natural armor bonus is concerned, they don't stack. It isn't armor being worn, and therefore your wild shape armor isn't "turned off" by the eidolon. Take the higher of the natural armor bonuses.

Cheliax

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

So you're saying the magic aura is separate and outside of the lead, thus being detectable.

Where in the rules does it say the aura is separate from the object? It's clearly not at emanation.

This is what I was asking.... If it is cast ON the box from the INSIDE of the box, is it ON the OUTSIDE of the box too?

If you cast the spell on the chest of your barbarian, is the back of him invisible too? What about if he opens his mouth, can other people see his teeth and tongue? The answer to both of these questions is as follows: He's invisible. All of him. That includes his teeth and his tongue, and his innards as well. If you swallowed a stone that was enchanted so that, on utterance of a command word, it cast invisibility on you, ALL OF YOU IS INVISIBLE. Not just your colon, or your liver.

Cheliax

This is very, very similar to a problem I had with a player recently. They had the equipment Mistmail

Mistmail, APG page 285:
The fine links of this +1 chain shirt form a pattern of roiling clouds. On command once per day, the wearer can transform it into thick fog that fills his space and provides concealment (20% miss chance). This mist moves with the character. Effects that disperse the mist or destroy it cause the armor to reform into its solid shape on the character's body, as does speaking the command word or entering a place where the fog-magic doesn't function (such as underwater). If the character tries to don another suit of armor while the mistmail is in fog form, it reforms at the character's feet.
and the spell Mirror Image up at the same time
Mirror Image, CRB page 314:
This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you.

When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.

An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).

How we handled it was as follows: First, the attacker made an attack roll. If successful, they would then have to roll a miss chance for Mistmail. If that succeeded, we did a die roll for which one of the images was hit, or if the player was hit. We followed this method for multiple reasons.
1) It was much easier math
And 2)Concealment bonuses themselves do not stack with each other. Mirror Images doesn't give you a "Concealment bonus", but it does pretty darn close to the same thing.

Concealment:
To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment.

When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has concealment if his space is entirely within an effect that grants concealment. When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you, use the rules for determining concealment from ranged attacks.

In addition, some magical effects provide concealment against all attacks, regardless of whether any intervening concealment exists.

Concealment Miss Chance

Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. Make the attack normally—if the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance d% roll to avoid being struck. Multiple concealment conditions do not stack

With multiple fortifications, as they are from different sources, treat them as such. Roll the crit negate percentile for your shield, then your armor. As for what kind of bonus it is, fortification is an enhancement bonus, just like a flat +1 to a shield or armor would be. They are the same bonus and bonus type, yes. But they will both work at the same time, as one is going to your shield and one is going to your armor. Saying otherwise means that you couldn't wear a belt of Giant's Strength and have a +1 sword, or a headband of alluring charisma and a +1 shield.

Cheliax

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Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Tactics, are you suggesting that invisibility is a one-way illusion? That would imply that if you cast invisibility on a door, you could see IN the room, but the creatures inside would still just see a door.

Is that seriously what you are suggesting?

It seemed to me he was saying that casting it inside the box (which you mentioned earlier as not automatically extending to the outside of the box) should permeate the entire spell target, else one-way mirror shenanigans occur.

Cheliax

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Detect magic does not allow someone to detect invisibility. There is a separate spell for that entirely (See Invisibility). If Detect Magic allowed the detection of invisibility, then you would be defeating a 2nd level spell with a cantrip. This is a no-no (see Light spell vs darkness spell vs daylight spell vs deeper darkness). The material of the box itself, all of it, becomes infused in this magic, even if you cast it from the inside

As far as seeing you, inside the box, that's a different mater. You would be invisible, I believe they would not be able to see you. I base this on this

Invisibility:
The creature or object touched becomes invisible. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so.

Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.

Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving. The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions. Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell.


I know it's a stretch, but imagine yourself as the object being put inside the pocket. That's why people can't see you. It is a lead box, so divination spells (such as detect evil/good/law/chaos) that state they can be stopped by lead will not see you inside of it.

Also, hope you can either hold your breath, don't need to breathe, or have air holes.

Cheliax

LazarX wrote:
Nanomd wrote:
LazarX wrote:

It's the same ability and you can't get the same ability twice.

It stays maxed at +5 as per the Int.

I thought that was the case, but I see a problem with your reasoning. Channel Energy. A Cleric 1/Paladin 4 can channel energy as either a paladin, or a cleric. Either do a 1d6 channel or a 2d6 channel. They are the same ability, and the paladin even says "As a cleric" in the channel energy description. They don't stack, so a paladin 4 / cleric 1 does not channel the same a cleric 5 does (3d6). However, these are dodge bonuses to armor, which always stack. That's the issue here. If it said "gains the canny dodge ability from another source, the affects stack", then the canny defense would be maxed to your int, regardless of your level. But because they don't say they stack, are they counted along separate tracks, just the same way channels are?
It's not the same thing. The channeling ability is open ended based on class level. The Duellist/Kensai ability is close ended capped on the Int stat.

It's capped on both, actually. You can only have 1 dodge armor bonus per level, up to your max int.

(EDIT: Also, I'm not trying to make it seem like the abilities being tracked separately is how it should be, just that I want to know why it is the way it is, when there are things that point in both directions from the rules)

Cheliax

Another point is the Rogue 5/ shadowdancer 2 combo. Both classes grant Evasion. However, because you already save for none from rogue, saving for none from shadowdancer doesn't do anything extra. You take none of 0 points of damage when you save. Good. The evasion ability from the shadow dancer still exists, it doesn't go away, but it's benefits aren't noticeable. The problem with the canny defense is that, again, having the abilities stack maxes you at your int, but not having them stack gives you a benefit, because dodge armor

Cheliax

LazarX wrote:

It's the same ability and you can't get the same ability twice.

It stays maxed at +5 as per the Int.

I thought that was the case, but I see a problem with your reasoning. Channel Energy. A Cleric 1/Paladin 4 can channel energy as either a paladin, or a cleric. Either do a 1d6 channel or a 2d6 channel. They are the same ability, and the paladin even says "As a cleric" in the channel energy description. They don't stack, so a paladin 4 / cleric 1 does not channel the same a cleric 5 does (3d6). However, these are dodge bonuses to armor, which always stack. That's the issue here. If it said "gains the canny dodge ability from another source, the affects stack", then the canny defense would be maxed to your int, regardless of your level. But because they don't say they stack, are they counted along separate tracks, just the same way channels are?

Cheliax

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Howdy yall. So I've got a bit of a question concerning the Kensai's Canny Defense

Kensei Canny Defense (Ex):
Ultimate Combat, Page 55 wrote:
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type

And the Duelist Canny Defense

Duelist Canny Defense (Ex):
CRB, Page 382 wrote:
When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

To keep things simple, let's say we have a Kensai with an intelligence of 20 (So he's got +5 int), who is 5th level. He gets a +5 dodge bonus to his armor class from the Kensai's Canny Defense ability. His 6th level is taken in the Duelist PRC. Remember that dodge bonuses to AC stack, which one of these things happens?

A)His Canny Defense ability from Kensai is the same Canny Defense as he'd have from Duelist, and therefore his dodge bonus stays at +5, as he's only got +5 int
B)His Canny Defense ability from Kensai is not the same as the Canny Defense ability from Duelist, and therefore his dodge bonus goes up to +6 (+5 from magus levels, +1 from Duelist levels)

I'm sure there are other possibilities that could be worked out, but from where I'm sitting it looks like an either or thing.

Cheliax

As written, there is no upper limit your ability scores can be. The table on page 17 of the CRB is written up to 45, however it also includes this nifty little "etc". So theoretically, if I wanted to have a 60 strength, it is possible. Just highly unlikely. I see you've written it out to 50 strength, which is doable by level 20. If your game goes beyond level 20, and you have access to items that don't just make your character large, but instead, oh, colossal... You can see where this is going.

Cheliax

Hakken wrote:
hmmm I am thinking the buttocks channeling one ala braveheart type thing.

You can buy a kilt (20 GP) for a little extra armour and moon someone if you so choose! But, you have to be able to show the holy symbol.

Cheliax

I have people roll knowledge checks on their turn in the initiative. Yes, information is shared instantly between party members. But, having some way to organize the affair helps keep things less boggy at the start of combat, and it flows better. I've seen plenty of GM's have checks done at the start of initiative, before people actually start the combat proper, however this system has a tendency to break the tension. If you're in a (good) home game, there should always be a fear of death, and there should always be a reason for battle to have started. Mindless killing of everything you see is what the first 3 seasons of PFS were about, not what I commit an entire evening every week for. Keeping this in mind, I equate knowledge checks at the beginning of combat to be much the same as the GM standing up and getting something to drink before every combat. It breaks flow, it feels really awful and off, and it's just downright game shattering.

You are allowed them at any time per the rules, as far as I am aware. But I advise HEAVILY against this system.

Cheliax

It does indeed work as a holy symbol. BUT, it must be visible in order for you to channel. So having it tattooed on your forehead or your hands for example would work. Having it tattooed on your buttocks would not. Having it in any location where it's not visible would still allow you to use it as a focus for spells, but not allow you to channel.

Core Rulebook wrote:

Channel Energy (Su)

Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity) must choose whether she channels positive or negative energy. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see spontaneous casting).

Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the cleric's level + the cleric's Charisma modifier. Creatures healed by channel energy cannot exceed their maximum hit point total—all excess healing is lost. A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. This is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A cleric can choose whether or not to include herself in this effect.

A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability.

So, having it anywhere that's under gear would not work. Having it exposed would, for the purpose of channeling. Either way, still counts as a focus for spells.

Cheliax

Quote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
Nanomd wrote:

Howdy. So I am building a Fighter / Wizard, going into Hellknight Signifer (Page 28 of Paths of Prestige, link to the srd HERE). The original thought for the character was very hellknight based. Shadow conjurer and illusionist, great at obtaining information through intimidation, could wield a sword with a fair amount of proficiency. Now I've got a different thought however. I recently came across the item Folding Plate, link HERE, and it got me to thinking. Specifically, Iron Man. If I were to pay the ritual cost to make the folding plate my arcane bonded object, would it only be considered "worn" when it was in amulet form, or would I still be able to cast spells without the concentration check when it unfolded?

I do understand that there are better ways to make an "Iron Man" character than a fighter 1, wizard 5, Hellknight Signifer x, but I've already got the "Smash you in the face" version of the Hellknight from the Inner Sea World Guide. I love the concept of Hellknights in general, and wish to have the spellcaster version as well.

Also, while I'm at it, can you pay additional gold to make named objects out of a special material? In this case, I would be wanting to spend 9k more in order to make it a Mithral Folding Plate.

It would be considered 'worn' in either state. The item write up actually states it takes up two differing slots depending on which state it is in. This also means however you are down a 'slot' when using this item, no neck item for you.

If this is for PFS, you are unable to alter 'named' or 'specific' magic items.

For a home game I imagine most GMs would let it slide. The concept isn't min maxed and what you want to do is essentially a 'quality of life' adjustment. Sometimes the rules are rough on certain concepts, wanting mithril armor on your battle...

This actually is for PFS, so that's a bummer I can't mithral it (though really there isn't a good reason why not -- it'd fold just the same if it's steel or if it's mithral, I'd imagine. Oh well). Looks like I'll just need to mithral a set of hellknight plate instead. Thanks for the answer.

Cheliax

Howdy. So I am building a Fighter / Wizard, going into Hellknight Signifer (Page 28 of Paths of Prestige, link to the srd HERE). The original thought for the character was very hellknight based. Shadow conjurer and illusionist, great at obtaining information through intimidation, could wield a sword with a fair amount of proficiency. Now I've got a different thought however. I recently came across the item Folding Plate, link HERE, and it got me to thinking. Specifically, Iron Man. If I were to pay the ritual cost to make the folding plate my arcane bonded object, would it only be considered "worn" when it was in amulet form, or would I still be able to cast spells without the concentration check when it unfolded?

I do understand that there are better ways to make an "Iron Man" character than a fighter 1, wizard 5, Hellknight Signifer x, but I've already got the "Smash you in the face" version of the Hellknight from the Inner Sea World Guide. I love the concept of Hellknights in general, and wish to have the spellcaster version as well.

Also, while I'm at it, can you pay additional gold to make named objects out of a special material? In this case, I would be wanting to spend 9k more in order to make it a Mithral Folding Plate.

Cheliax

bumb, as it was falling off the page.

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