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I would imagine a player death would put a serious damper on any campaign. ;)
N+1) If you need to be somewhere at a certain time, let me know and I'll do my best. I understand you have work in the morning, (heck, I probably do too) but you agreed to play this game at this time slot. Quit checking your watch like you're the White Rabbit. You're making me nervous.
Speaking as a GM, I would rather someone point out the correct rule every time. That way I learn to do better, the player learns to do better, and I learn to be on the lookout for other people using that rule incorrectly. New players are the perfect ones to correct, because you need to get them playing the right way before their mistakes become bad habits, which then become "I know it works this way. I can't find it, but that's how we've always done it."
Everything else, I'm pretty much right with you. In combat may not be the best time to tell your epic tale of victory (unless you're a bard). Contributing nothing to the scenario from fear of spoiling it can be just as bad as spoiling it if the players are truly stuck and your character could come up with a solution.
The best information on the factions as they currently stand would be in the Guide to Organized Play (a free download). There are going to be some major changes to factions coming mid-August, so you may not want to focus too much on them to start. As for what to run, I agree with about running through First Steps. It has the advantage of being free, so if it doesn't fit your group's style the only thing it will cost you is time.
Another free option is the module Master of the Fallen Fortress. It is a straight up dungeon crawl similar to First Steps part 2, but it is still playable for credit.
7th level Kyra killed Rodrik, my 8th level Invulnerable Rager, in one hit! (And it was awesome!)
Two weekends ago at Play On Con, I had the privilege of playing my dwarf barbarian at a table of 5-13: Weapon in the Rift. It was the most entertaining round of PFS I've had in quite some time, which is saying something since I had said the same thing about my first ever session of The Confirmation that I had played the night before. All in all, it was a great weekend.
The party was hopelessly outclassed by everything we encountered. From the very first hallway, to the very first puzzle, through the very first encounter took nearly about 3 hours of slapstick fit for a Three Stooges film. I was brought below 0hp 3 times that fight, while everyone else tried to keep the other [redacted] away from our only healer, the traitorous Kyra, curse her very name.
Skipping ahead a bit, my barbarian has had some... bad experiences with haunts in the past. So when he walked into a room and felt the temperature drop, he advanced to the rear as quickly as he could manage. It turned out not to be a haunt, but instead a dastardly [other redacted]! As his companions stood there, transfixed by it's arcane mumbo jumbo, he took it upon himself to unlimber his bow and fire upon the creature with specially prepared arrows. Clearly no marksman, the arrow went wide and he drew another hoping for a clear shot. The next round, I threw caution to the wind, and had him charge in wielding one of the specially prepared arrows. After a direct hit for what seemed like fairly low damage, I realized that I had not remembered to RAGE! (I'm telling you, the whole thing was a comedy of errors.) The next round (remembering that I had Ghost Rager, and no need for those silly arrows- hey, I don't get to play very often. Cut me some slack), I punched the [other redacted] in it's face with my cestus, dropped my bow and drew my "real" weapon, a dorn-dergar. We traded blows for about three rounds total, while most of the party either babbled incoherently or smacked themselves in the face. It was just me and the monk, toe to trailing ectoplasmic vapor against this seemingly unkillable thing! Each time Rodrik took a hit, I could feel his sanity cracking. After the third hit, my Barbarian was on the ground, unable to form a coherent thought (some would say that was no great change). It was then that Kyra revealed her true colors...
She claims that she confused my prone form with the enemy that had been trying to kill all of us. Seeing "it" helpless on the floor, she did the only thing she could: A coup-de-grace*! Seeing the mistake, the monk easily disarmed the cleric. That didn't stop her, though. She reached down and snapped poor Rodrik's neck! (Well, in actuality she only managed to deal 1 point of damage past my damage reduction, but it was enough to force a Fortitude save.) As I rolled the dice, I said the magic words "I can only fail on a 1." And sure enough, I look down to see a 1 staring back up at me. It was glorious.
And that is how an 8th level "Invulnerable" Rager was killed by an unarmed, level 7 pregen Kyra. And yes, I paid for an atonement to clear my "Ex-Barbarian" status after that scenario. The cleric and monk eventually brought down the [other redacted] at which point they decided it was better to cut their losses than to go on without my help (such as it was). Even after being brought back with a breath of life, Rodrik was unconscious with 12 Wisdom damage and Kyra didn't have a Restoration prepared. It was a failed mission, but for me it was worth every second.
*To be clear, the coup de grace was actually my idea. The GM said he was fine with it, and the player of the cleric thought the idea was hilarious enough to give it a shot. I don't want anyone to think this was some jerk GM or player who "did this to me".
Human x5 (Ulfen, Keleshite, Tian-Dtang, Taldan, and Chelish)
For my wife, since she doesn't post on the boards:
A bonded object is not a familiar. It has actually been enchanted and altered by the bonder. Those enchantments and bonds are tied to the owner which is why it reverts when the holder dies. Implicit in that condition is that the holder isn't coming back.
With you until that last sentence. The item was enchanted by the bonder in such a way that they only ever work for him. For everyone else, it is already a masterwork stick. Why would the rules plainly state that it reverts back to a normal object of its type if they didn't mean exactly that? You are making inferences but are providing no basis from which to do so.
With your logic, the bond should also be irrevocably destroyed if someone is killed and then brought back via a Breath of Life spell? Would you shatter a magus's Black Blade?
A black blade is not a bonded object. Otherwise, yes. I would even in the case of a Breath of Life.
Something run cold can also be a TPK, or far easier than what other tables experience. TPKs are not fun, and for many players GM softballing (even unintentionally) is not fun. I am selfish. I want the best experience reasonably possible, because I can't ever have that experience again.
Edit: I understand that sometimes a GM has to run cold. I just take your post as being far too forgiving of what you refer to as a "margin of error."
With the changes to the factions, I'm betting First Steps 1 will be retired in August, just like parts 2 and 3 were last year when the factions mentioned in them went away.
I wish they would stick to their previous decision on that. I still say the factions changing was a poor reason to retire the other First Step scenarios. Especially when the offending NPCs show up in many other scenarios, some after the faction's retirement. Retiring the last remaining part of First Steps is like making one less 1-5 scenario for every character a person ever creates.
Zach Williams wrote:
I don't see a FAQ, I see a message board post. If they want people to be able to find it, it needs to be in the FAQ. Especially for PFS where "message board posts are rules" but no one can ever seem to find them when asked.
Smite Makes Right, that is one option for applying pregen credit. It does not apply to scenarios played with one of your real characters.
DM Tobi, since Paz already answered your question, I just wanted to clarify that it is very rare for a group to decide to play up or down. If the APL was 3, the group size and the season of the scenario should have determined what subtier to play.
And I remember seeing that a few people just hit 12 with another few right on their heels. Do you think the 2nd table will be run later this year? My home group is also getting up there in level, but we haven't played as much lately due to conflicting schedules.
1) Sure is. Right there in the Bestiary entry.
I reject your false dichotomy. Your "team player" brings nothing to the group that the group doesn't already have. "Oh, another cure wand. Add it to the pile." The marginal benefit of one more cure wand in a hand picked group is much less that the marginal benefit of, well, anything else really. I say again, I'd rather take the barbarian with a ranged option or a potion of fly than a sixth CLW wand.
You have gotten so focused on this **** wand, and the idea that not having one means you are not a "team player" that you forget I was originally on your side. I do think every character should have a way to heal him or herself. I do think every character should be somewhat self sufficient, because you cannot guarantee that someone else will be able to fill the role you lack. Your example is far beyond that. In a hand picked group, redundancy is, well, redundant.
But everything else is not the same. What did Bob La Feet spend those same two prestige on? If it was a Darkwood Composite Longbow so that he has a ranged option, I might want him instead. It's great for one character to buy a wand. It's not so great for all six to have a wand when some of them could instead have an oil of daylight, or a potion of fly, or a wand of bless, or whatever. The argument for providing your own healing starts to break down when you can hand pick a group.
Trying to look at this another way... In 4e there are fairly clear party roles. One of those roles is "Leader" and although Leader doesn't just mean "Healer" you aren't a true leader if you don't have a way to heal the other characters the bare minimum of times per encounter with your class's "_____ Word" or similar power.
In 4e organized play (and I use the term loosely) you aren't always guaranteed to have all of the roles covered. Even when someone's playing a Leader, you aren't guaranteed that your character will be on the top of their priority list, or will be in range of their powers, or that the Leader won't go down. After playing a Defender (Dwarf Earthstrength Warden, specifically) from first level, I learned that the best way to guarantee I would be healed when I needed it was to be able to provide my own healing in a pinch. I also learned that if the Leader goes down, we need something more than an untrained Heal check and crossed fingers. I started carrying potions of healing (even though they healed much less than I would normally be healed for). I multiclassed to pick up a daily healing power. I discovered class options that would allow me to take less damage and even to heal myself. It might not have been the "optimal" choice, but it kept my character alive. Just the other day, I took over 300 points of damage in one fight. That's after damage resistances, so the amount dealt to me was a good bit higher. I only have ~150 hit points and was only healed once by the cleric. If I hadn't made the choices I did, my character would have died in that fight, and many others before it.
tl;dr Anecdotal evidence that even when there are clearly defined roles, it pays to be able to heal yourself.
You have two options, really:
1) Give him a Mulligan. He dropped after the first fight for whatever reason, so he really hasn't experienced the scenario. Not really a legal option.
2) Fill out a chronicle with 0xp and however much gold and Prestige he managed to earn, and e-mail it to him. Report him as having played the scenario just as you would any other character. This is the technically correct option, but will mean he can't ever legally get credit for this scenario (replayable scenarios excepted, of course). He is still eligible for first level retraining, so no reason he can't be a cleric now. But, you can't play the same character in two scenarios at the same time, so however you want to handle it, he is no longer in your game.
Nah. I was responding to David's post. Even being able to cast at will doesn't overcome having to touch the object daylight is cast on, if it was cast on an object. I think you mention that in your guide.
Where do you get the impression he's being a "D%ck" about anything. He's not playing a healer, he's playing a tank. Expecting him to heal you is like expecting the gunslinger to drop their pistols and go charging in with a greatsword! And what if he wasn't even at the table? Who would you expect to do the healing then? With the variability of organized play, you might sit down one day to find you are the best Healer at the table. What are you going to do then? Just roll over and die?
Thinking on this a little further, I'm not sure I support the rule change. I don't like the idea of preparing after the fact. I don't like the idea of being pressured to solve other people's problems.
Another character's lack of planning should not be an emergency that I have to solve. "But it's okay, I'll pay you back" just doesn't make up for you not being prepared in the first place.
Oh, I agree. I'm usually happy when my players pull out just the right answer for the problem, but part of my fun is trying to overcome the (sometimes overwhelming) odds. Unless you're saying the NPCs wouldn't try to dispel the daylight if they thought they had the chance, then I'm not sure I agree. What would you do differently?
As a GM I cringe a bit when a creature has see in darkness and deeper darkness at will. It can cast deeper darkness and dispel any daylights that come up. The only defense is a heightened continual flame, that I believe is in Jiggys guide.
It's harder than you might think. I've tried to dispel the daylight in two scenarios and each time I've been discovered and killed before I could touch the ohject it was cast on.
As someone who occasionally plays a face, it is my job to keep us out of combat if at all possible. If the BSF decides "all talk and no choppy make Thunk something something" then I'm not able to do my job. I shouldn't have to heal Thunk for "protecting" me in the fight I could have talked my way out of.
As someone who occasionally plays a Thunk, it is my job to kill things before they can kill me back. Part of killing things is taking damage. As long as the other guy loses all his hit points before I do, I win. If you don't want to help heal me after (or during) the fight, then you better also have a way to kill things before they kill you in case I go down.
The problem is, one of my Thunk characters is a cleric. So, theoretically I could heal myself (and often do). But if you're playing a Thunk, and I'm playing a Thunk, it's not fair for you to expect me to do your healing while you get to have all the fun. If you want to go to the back and pout about how I won't heal you, that's fine. More choppy for me. :)
I guess what I'm saying is, there are roles in Pathfinder. Not every party will have every possible role. It is not fair to say "You're playing a [CLASS], that makes you the Healer." You need to be able to live through a scenario where the best Healer you have is a Rogue with UMD and no wand (because why should he have a wand? He's the Scout/Striker, not the Healer). We all have things we'd like to be doing, but instead Dradle Dreg woke us up at 3:AM to be the next stars on 1000 Ways to Die. The idea is we come together as a group to face those challenges, that way when we die anyway we know we did the best we could. This rambling post brought to you by the makers of Nyquil.
EDIT: Oh, yeah! The whole reason I posted: You should totally be able to make an oil of glitterdust. It says "creatures and objects within 10-ft.-radius spread" so it clearly targets the creatures and the objects, not just the area itself. You should be able to make oils of sleep and glitterdust because they specify creatures, but not color spray and fireball, because those only specify an area.
Janira L. Gavix wrote:
Did they enjoy themselves? If so, you did a great job.
Aye, they seemed to. I know that's the real point of all this, but sometimes I don't have fun unless I know that I've played the baddies as well as I could. I don't feel like I did in this case.
In Rats' case, I think the dice didn't hate me or anything, my players just had the perfect party. It happens!
There was a bit of this. The Gunslinger went first in all but a couple encounters, and critted at least once in every fight, and never misfired. She rolls openly, so no shenanigans there. The eidolon is a beast, and at times had a higher AC than the Cleric who was built for it (both were in the mid to high 30s). They seemed to have the perfect answer to every problem (Archers behind arrow slits? Wind Wall. Wall of Stone cutting the party in half? A race between the DDooring Summoner and the Druid's stone shape. Cleric dominated (not the best choice, but he was in line of sight, and the Fighter and 'slinger weren't)? Successful dispel from the Summoner or Druid, one. They both had it, I think.
Running the dragon, the biggest mistake I made was choosing to stay and duke it out (thinking my own high AC and attack bonus would give me a shot against the eidolon) instead of risking the three AoO's I would have provoked moving away.
Sparky Spain wrote:
Would that also apply to characters past level 2, who are built purely on GM credit?
Yep. Even if you play it at level 1 and then don't play it again until level 12, you are still eligible for the 1st level retrain rules, which include adding creation-only boons. I've got a 7th level credit baby I intend to be a human bard. That intention doesn't change the fact I could make it a kitsune sorcerer tomorrow if I wanted.
Dennis Baker wrote:
The iconics aren't good at something? *Shocking
Not helpful. If you're going to set the DC "low" because you know most characters aren't good at it, why would you set it so high that the pregens, the ones we give to new players so they can have fun and feel a sense of accomplishment so they will continue playing, can't make the check more than half the time? Dismissing the pregens does not dismiss the problem. Telling us to ignore the rules for the chase and just "play Pathfinder" does not fix the problem.
I recently ran both parts of the Rats of Round Mountain set of scenarios at high tier for 6 players (mostly the same, but two players were different in each group). I had no deaths, I had no one go unconscious, and I had no combat make it more than a few rounds. There were a few things I know for a fact I could have done better, mostly in playing the dragon. I had to knock some rust off since I've been too busy with work to GM or play for several months, but I think this could be more than rust.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not out to kill. It's not a goal that I strive for. It just seems to me that if my players are doing so well in such a notorious set of scenarios, that I might be partly to blame.
As best as I can remember, the party for part 1 consisted of:
I'm not really sure what all details to give about the individual encounters. I don't know if I'm looking more for advice, or commiseration, or what. Just felt like venting a bit, I guess.
You feel these new ones have too much TPK potential, but you were okay with the blindy sneaky thing in FS2, not to mention being betrayed by the overly protective ghoulfriend? And in FS3 the [redacted] was pretty much designed to kill murderhobos in an environment where they were severely disadvantaged, unless the GM was blatantly ignoring the environmental rules.
In short, I disagree with you.
I found this:
Guide to Organized Play wrote:
As a Pathfinder Society GM, you have the right and responsibility to make whatever judgements, within the rules, that you feel are necessary at your table to ensure everyone has a fair and fun experience. This does not mean you can contradict rules or restrictions outlined in this document, a published Pathfinder Roleplaying Game source, errata document, or official FAQ on paizo.com. What it does mean is that only you can judge what is right for your table during cases not covered in these sources.And this:
Guide to Organized Play wrote:
While you are enjoying the game, be considerate of the others at the table and don’t let your actions keep them from having a good time too. In short, don’t be a jerk.
So, if one or more players playing a pregen would cause the group to not have fun, and/or to lose characters they have invested time and effort into, then show me where the GM is forced to accept the player of the pregen over the objections of his other players.
If you're playing in home game mode, your PFS characters do not get reported as dead. AFAIK, you would get a chronicle sheet with just the items you actually encountered, and just the portion of xp, gp and prestige from the encounters you successfully completed. Might be worth it depending on how important that 4th chronicle is to you (can't get that unless you play the whole thing in campaign mode).