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The character is willing to put his life on the line to protect his commoners. He also tries to do what he thinks as right for his commoners. Instead of just giving the commoner food, he wants to make sure the commoner always has the resources he needs to take care of himself. He treats his commoners as if they are his children. While this may be arrogant and patronizing it is not evil. The only thing that seems to be a strike against him is that he does not feel the same way about other commoners. I think that this is more of a matter of respecting tradition. He is taking care of his responsibilities and expects other nobles to do the same.

The character is also willing to work against corrupt nobles. The fact that he prefers to work within the system is an indication of lawful good than anything else. This falls under respecting legitimate authority. Kind of hard to say an act is evil when it is called out in the paladin’s code.

Does the character try to cheat other commoners or does he treat them fairly? How does he treat commoners not under a noble’s protection? If he treats other commoners fairly and is willing to help commoners not under another nobles protection he is lawful good.

I would say that for the most part what you describe is good. It sounds like you are confusing democracy with good. While I am a believer in democracy that does not mean that anything that disagrees with it is necessary evil. Other than using less than honorable tactics they actually sound lawful good. Also keep in mind that they may hold commoners and nobles to different standards, that is not necessary chaotic, or evil.

The saying give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, but teach him to fish and he will be fed for life comes from the bible. If the commoner works hard do they take away what he earned or do they let him keep it? There will of course be taxes but as long as they are consistent and fair that should not be a problem. If they allow the commoners to prosper if they work hard, and don’t just take what they want they sound good.

Abadar is a lawful neutral deity not good; as such he can have lawful evil clerics and inquisitors. There is no reason to go outside the religion for this. Simply use a lawful evil inquisitor of Abadar.

The way I see it the investigator is more specialized. A lot of his abilities are limited but taking the right talent can open them up. The problem comes is that talents are a limited resource and it may be a while before you can get all the ones you want. They have the flexibility to do anything well just not everything at once. If you want to concentrate on combat there are a talents that will make you very good at this, but this means your abilities in other areas are not as strong as they could be.

The one area that I see the bard doing better in than the investigator is magic. The bard has a larger selection of spells than the investigator has extracts. True the bard has a limited number but his selection is better. Look at their 6th level list. Almost half of the alchemists extracts are form of the X variants. The bard gets many spells earlier than the wizard. A bard gets overwhelming presence as a 6th level spell; to a wizard this is a 9th level spell. He also gets shadow evocation, and shadow conjuration which is a very versatile spells. And he gets cantrips. Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Message, and Sift are all very useful.

The way I see it the archeologist bard does a better job of a thief. He can pick up the two rouge talents needed to be a great thief sooner than the investigator. He already gets the equivalent of fast picks and quick disable for free, so all he needs is fast stealth and trap spotter. His spells are also for the most part tailored to the role a little better. Getting heroism as a second level spell is a big advantage. I consider that spell a must have spell.

The investigator on the other hand has a long list of things he is going to want to spend his talents on before he will be able to get those. He is going to want expanded inspirations, amazing Inspirations, underworld inspirations, quick study, infusion, and probably empathy. I probably missed some even with that. The inquisitor can spend feats to get extra talents, but at that point he does not have them to spend on other things.

The problem with the investigator is they have so many good talents. Unfortunately you can’t have them all. This is a good problem for a class to have because it means that you can have a variety of investigators that are all different. It also means the character takes a little longer to come together. Once he does he is great, but waiting for that to happen can frustrate some players.

A couple of thing to keep in mind about studied combat is that you don’t get it until 4th level. It only applies to a single melee target, and does not work on a target with concealment. You also have to use a move action to activate it every time. This is not to say that it is worthless, it’s actually a decent ability, but has a lot of limitations. This is what that rouge should have instead of sneak attack.

Archeologist luck requires a single swift action to start and its abilities apply to all attacks, damage, saves and skills. While its usefulness on spells may not be that important it still works on them. More importantly it works on ranged combat. Both the bard and investigator have proficiency in short bows. This character will probably have a decent DEX but only an 11 STR. He will probably be wearing no armor so his AC will not be the best. Ranged combat is a lot better for this particular character than melee.

Let’s assume an 8th level character. With a single swift action the bard can increase his chance to hit and damage with a bow, and improve his saving throws. The investigator on the other hand is using a move action and then may have to use his standard action to move in to attack. This means he does not get an attack until the second round of combat. In the meantime the bard has attacked twice. The next round the bard attacks twice without having to worry about being attacked. The investigator can now attack but will also be able to be attacked back. Round three the target goes down, but there are still other targets. The bard will simply chose a new target and take his full attack. The investigator now has to spend a move action to get his studied target and then may still need to move to the new target. At this point the bard has attacked 6 times to the investigators 2 or 3 times. The investigator has may have also taken some damage.

I think either one of the combinations would work it really depends on what the player wants.

I have never said that the bard is better at skills than the investigator. The investigator will obviously be better at skills overall, but the bard is not that far behind. The bard is going to do better in combat and survivability. Evasion and better saves due to archeologist luck being able to be used for all saves instead of just one means he will be able to deal with area of effect damage a lot better. Uncanny Dodge means that he gets his full AC even when flat footed or facing an invisible attacker.

Normally being able to use INT for some skill is going to big, but in this case it will not be as valuable. The player is rolling for stats not using a point buy, and they have already been rolled. The obvious place for the 11 is in STR which means the next lowest stat is a14, and the highest stat is a 17 (19 after racial adjustment). The difference is only +1(+2). If he goes bard I would put the 16 in INT.

The bard gets a straight +1/2 per level on all perception, disable device and knowledge skills. The investigator gets +1/2 per level on disable device and perception rolls to spot traps. The investigator does not get the bonus on perception to spot an ambush or notice anything but a trap. This is like getting 6 extra skill points per level for the bard vs. ½ or maybe ¾ for the investigator. Also the ability of a bard to take 20 on a knowledge skill is something an investigator can’t do. At 10th level a bard can perform all skill untrained. Admittedly by this point the only thing that this will apply to is professional skills which are of limited use.

Studied combat takes a move action instead of a swift action. It also applies to only a single target and only applies to melee attacks. Archeologist luck applies to all attacks including spells.

Overall the investigator is going to be a bit better at skills, but the bard will be better at combat. Now the original poster is not trying to be a major combat monster, but you still want to be able to contribute something and more importantly to survive. This is where I see the bard has the edge.

Both the archeologist bard/sorcerer mix and the investigator/wizard will be very similar.

The archeologist will be better at spotting things other than traps. Trap finding only applies to detecting traps. The archeologist will also disable traps and open locks faster.

Archeologist luck vs. inspiration is fairly close. Both have limited pools that may run out. Inspiration has the advantage of being unlimited for some things, but also has to be used individually. Since using inspiration on a saving throw is an immediate action you can only use it on a single saving throw. It also requires you to use more for combat uses so may run out quicker. Archeologist luck basically requires lingering performance. It applies to everything that it qualifies in the round and also increases damage. Inspiration will be better for skills if you pick up the right talents. Archeologist luck is going to be better in combat.

Magic wise the bard has spells vs. the investigators extract. Extracts only affect the investigator unless he spends a talent to affect others. Even when they affect others it is a single character so is often less powerful. The big advantage is that you can know unlimited number of extracts; the down side is you have to memorize the right one. The bard gets several spells early, Heroism being a good example. He also gets cantrips. His spells can also affect multiple targets and can do more than just boost the character. The downside is he gets a limited number. Overall I would call it a draw.

As far as talents it would seem that the investigator has the advantage because he gets more of them. This is actually an illusion because there are some he almost has to take. The investigator is going to want expanded inspirations, underworld inspiration and infusion if he is concentrating on being the sneaky thief type. So he has to either spend feats for extra inspirations or wait till 9th level to pick up a rogue talent. The archeologist bard actually has a couple of talents built in. He gets the equivalent of fast picks, and quick disable for free. This means he can actually get his first talent by 4th level.

The investigator gets poison use, studied combat and studied target.

The bard gets evasion, uncanny dodge, bardic knowledge, and lore master.

zza ni wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Play a half elf and use the favored class bonus for Bard for extra performance and the Sorcerer for Extra spells. I assume that you can take both bonuses each level because half elves have two favored classes.

nop. you get the fevored class only when you take a level in the faovrd class. that mean ehwn he levle as bard he get the BARD(and only the bard) fevored calss bonus.) and when he level as the sorcerer he'll get the sorcerer fev class bonus. getting one fev class has nothing to do wit hthe other's bonus. you can have eve n12 fev classes(human with the extra fev class feat) yo ustill get only one bonus for the class you just leveld in.( UNLESS yo utake the trait "find kin". or however it is called that case you still get the fev class you picked, but even if you took that you get +1 hp and +1 skill)

He is gaining levels in both classes using the gestalt rules. So each level he gains a two classes.

Both the investigator and the archeologist bard have a lot of overlap that does not take advantage of the gestalt rules. Both have 6 skill points per level, both have the same combat ability and saves. You would get both bard spells and extracts but not much else. The same is going to be true for the rogue.

With sorcerer you get much stronger magic and a bloodline. Basically the sorcerer is trading away a lot of combat for magical power. Full 9th level casting is a lot more powerful then extracts and offers a lot more versatility and utility.

The original poster is not interested in combat so that eliminates many of the classes. An archeologist bard/paladin for example would be a lot better in combat and have much better defenses.

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An inquisitor may have some leeway, but they are still followers of the god. The church may not have authority over an inquisitor, but the deity does. Any inquisitor ignoring the teachings of the god for selfish reasons will soon be an ex –inquisitor. In the real world there may be a lot of religious people who don’t care about their religion, but they are not being granted powers.

Also the inquisitor is the last class you want to multiclass with. They have too many abilities that will be weakened or delayed by dipping.

This is also part of a team so changing deities may be more difficult than normal.

Xyden wrote:
I think I figured this out. So the archeologist's luck feature replaces the bardic performance feature. Therefore, any feats, or racial features, etc., that would normally affect bardic performance, would instead affect archeologist's luck, right?

Exactly Lingering Performance also triples the number of rounds.

If you are going for a druid then use inquisitor for the other class. That would work give him the skills he needs for the investigation and sneaky things he wants. Wild shape last hours per level so when you first get it you can remain in animal form for 4 hours. At 5th level you can pick up Natural Spell to allow you to cast spells in wild shape. By 6th level you can spend 12 hours a day in wild shape, and by 8th you are up to all day. The only thing this character would not be able to do would be to disarm magical traps. In most campaigns that is probably not a big deal, but in some it can be important.

I still think the Archeologist Bard/Umbral Sorcerer is the best way to go. Just make sure to pick up lingering performance and a race that gets +1 round of performance per day as a FCB. While many of the spells are on both lists this is not a bad thing. Normally both the sorcerer and the bard have such limited spell selection they have to make every spell count. This way you can afford to pick up some situational spells because you will be able to get the other spells you need with the other class.

Aura of the Unremarkable is a great spell for pulling off completely outrageous things, but it is very limited in scope so most spontaneous casters will probably avoid it. This would be a perfect spell for this character.

Shadow Projection is another spell that would be very useful for this character. The ability to become a shadow to scout out an area is huge.

The Archeologist bard is basically a rogue that has magic. Take the trait criminal to get disable device as a class skill, and fates favorite to boost your archeologist luck and there is nothing a rogue can do that you can’t do better. Use your bard spells to boost your abilities with things like invisibility, heroism, gaseous form and the like.

I would still take the sorcerer for the other class. Your group has the combat down and the combat spells seem to be taken care of. What you are lacking is utility spells. Not buffing spells, but thing like teleport, fly, clairvoyance, and mages magnificent mansion. Also divination, enchantment and illusion spells will allow you to do a lot more sneaky stuff than any skill especially at higher levels.

The Umbral bloodline seem to give the most for this including hide in plain sight at 9th level.

Between these two classes you will probably have every utility spell in the book.

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If you really want utility go for an Archeologist Bard/Sorcerer. The Archeologist has plenty of skills and more importantly bardic knowledge. Put a single point into every class skill then cast Heroism and use Archeologist Luck. With Fates Favorite your bonus to all skills is huge for all skills, and bardic knowledge will boost knowledge’s even further.

The biggest boost to utility is spells. This way you get two sets of spells based on the same stat. Play a half elf and use the favored class bonus for Bard for extra performance and the Sorcerer for Extra spells. I assume that you can take both bonuses each level because half elves have two favored classes.

Will the paladin be putting points into diplomacy? If so Heresy is probably the better inquisition for you. The ability to roll twice on bluff, diplomacy and stealth and take the better result is better than using WIS modifier to diplomacy. The 8th level abilities are about equal. Dominate is a stronger but is limited to humanoids, where the curse can affect any creature.

Fate’s Favored is good, but Birthmark allows you always to have a holy symbol for your spells. This can be very useful if you are trying to infiltrate an evil group. If they search you and find a holy symbol of Sarenrae that is going to be hard to explain. If you do want Fate’s Favored then you may want Power of suggestion. Personally I think always having a holy symbol is better.

Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
I would recommend going with the following stats STR 12 DEX 18(+2 Racial) CON 14, INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 7. Take the Heresy Inquisition to use WIS for bluff and intimidate. Let your brother be the nice one your job is the scare the crap out of people and lie when needed. Classic good cop (Paladin), bad cop (Inquisitor). Go for dervish dance and let your brother go for the STR.
Often I myself would say the same but can you get away with that as an inquisitor? I mean it would be level 5 before you get power attack at all and with your stats you wouldn't get it. If piranha strike is allowed its still level 5. Plus the dreaded transition from level 1 to 3 when our scimitar is using strength. I couldn't do it but maybe the OP can.

Inquisitors are also proficient with bows so for the first 2 levels he can function as an archer. He can also carry a dagger to take advantage of weapon finesse. The difference between 1d4 and 1d6 is on the average a single point so that is not a big deal. Judgments and spells will also boost his combat ability. By the time he hits 5th level and bane kicks in he will be fine even without power attack. Power attack is not going to give him as much damage as it will the paladin. First he is using the scimitar one handed so he only gets +2 damage per -1 to hit. Also since he is a ¾ BAB class he does not get as much from it as a full BAB class. The penalty to hit may also make him miss too much to make it worthwhile.

Keep in mind that other than dervish dance all his abilities work equally well with ranged and melee. Being able to hit with a ranged attack is going to be worth a lot when he starts to face flying monsters.

I would recommend going with the following stats STR 12 DEX 18(+2 Racial) CON 14, INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 7. Take the Heresy Inquisition to use WIS for bluff and intimidate. Let your brother be the nice one your job is the scare the crap out of people and lie when needed. Classic good cop (Paladin), bad cop (Inquisitor). Go for dervish dance and let your brother go for the STR.

The ninja is an alternative rogue class. It is not all that powerful, except compared to the rogue. Considering the rogue is the weakest class in the game that is not a problem. Many people look at the rogue as being practically a NPC class. If all he wanted was power he would probably be better off staying strait paladin.

Here is a sample build. It has both heroism and archeologist luck activated.

Male half-elf bard (archaeologist) 7 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 32)
NG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +25
AC 22, touch 16, flat-footed 17 (+5 armor, +1 deflection, +5 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 45 (7d8+7)
Fort +9, Ref +16, Will +11; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion, trap sense +2, uncanny dodge; Immune sleep
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 scimitar +15 (1d6+8/18-20)
Ranged mwk composite shortbow +15 (1d6+3/×3)
Special Attacks archaeologist's luck 13 rounds/day (+2)
Bard (Archaeologist) Spells Known (CL 7th; concentration +9)
3rd (1/day)—clairaudience/clairvoyance, dispel magic
2nd (4/day)—heroism, invisibility, misdirection, pilfering hand{super}UC{/super}
1st (5/day)—comprehend languages, cure light wounds, expeditious retreat, feather fall, magic mouth (DC 13)
0 (at will)—dancing lights, detect magic, mage hand, message, read magic, sift{super}APG{/super}
Str 13, Dex 21, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +5; CMB +9; CMD 22
Feats Dervish Dance[ISWG], Extra Rogue Talent[APG], Lingering Performance[APG], Weapon Finesse
Traits criminal, fate's favored
Skills Acrobatics +16, Appraise +11, Bluff +11, Climb +11, Diplomacy +11, Disable Device +26, Disguise +11, Escape Artist +14, Fly +10, Heal +5, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (arcana) +14, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +14, Knowledge (engineering) +14, Knowledge (geography) +14, Knowledge (history) +14, Knowledge (local) +14, Knowledge (nature) +14, Knowledge (nobility) +14, Knowledge (planes) +14, Knowledge (religion) +14, Linguistics +11, Perception +25, Perform (dance) +12, Ride +10, Sense Motive +10, Sleight of Hand +16, Spellcraft +11, Stealth +20, Survival +5, Swim +6, Use Magic Device +15; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Kelish, Osiriani
SQ arcane training, bardic knowledge +3, clever explorer +3, elf blood, lore master 1/day, rogue talents (fast stealth, trap spotter)
Combat Gear wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +1 mithral chain shirt, +1 scimitar, mwk composite shortbow (+1 Str), amulet of natural armor +1, belt of incredible dexterity +2, cloak of resistance +1, eyes of the eagle, handy haversack, ring of protection +1, masterwork thieves' tools, 4,285 gp
Special Abilities
Arcane Training +1 CL for spell trigger/completion items for favored class, or use them as if 1st level.
Archaeologist's Luck +2 (13 rounds/day) (Ex) Gain Luck bonus to attack, damage, saves, and all skills.
Bardic Knowledge +3 (Ex) Add +3 to all knowledge skill checks.
Clever Explorer +3 (take 10 & magic traps) (Ex) Half time to use disable device. Can always take 10 & disarm magic traps.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Fate's Favored Increase luck bonuses by 1.
Lingering Performance Bardic Performances last 2 rds after you stop concentrating.
Lore Master (1/day) (Ex) Can take 10 on any trained knowledge checks. Activate to take 20 as a standard action.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Trap Sense +2 (Ex) +2 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.

If you have good stats don’t dump STR. You need enough STR to carry your gear. 10-13 is usually fine any lower you may be encumbered with normal gear. The feat Dervish Dance allows you to use DEX to hit and damage with the scimitar. As a bard you will need to be at least 3rd level to pick it up; but once you do you will do fine in melee. You need weapon finesse and 2 ranks in perform dance, and proficiency in scimitar.

Your spells should focus on utility and buffing spells. Heroism is a second level bard spell and is probably the single most useful spell for an archeologist. It stacks with archeologist luck so gives you a huge bonus on combat and skills that last a long time. Pick up fates favored to boost archeologist luck even higher and you will be fine in combat.

Keep in mind an archeologist bard does not need a lot of CHA. As long as they have enough CHA to cast their spells they are usually fine. Starting with at least a 14 CHA is probably a good idea; you will want to get 16 CHA by 16th level. If you want to go for a ranged or finesse combat style DEX is more important than CHA. You will want enough STR to carry your gear and maybe a little more for some extra damage. INT will get you some extra skills and also boost knowledge’s so should be decent, usually at least 12.

An archeologist does not get extra rounds of performance so most of the time lingering performance is almost required. Taking a race that gets extra rounds of performance is also very helpful. One common build is a half elf with ancestral arms to get proficiency and go the dervish dance route. DEX to damage on a high DEX character is a huge advantage.

Archery is a pretty feat intense build and you will not have a lot of feats available. You can still use a bow as a ranged weapon without spending any feats on it. You just won’t be as effective as if you spent the feats. You will never be as effective as a full BAB class anyways so that is not a big deal.

Archeologist Bard is what you are looking for. They get everything you wanted including rogue talents.

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|dvh| wrote:

1. You're reading a lot into what I said that isn't there.

2. We're not discussing what other people do elsewhere, we're discussing this one case.

3. Your logic is bad, and I'm not sure if you're just trying to spin it to make your position seem tenable or if you're trying to convince yourself you're right. Saying "a gypsy fortune teller is not a stereotype unless you are saying that all gypsy’s are fortune tellers" is just ridiculous.

Webster’s definition of a stereotype: to believe unfairly that all people or things with a particular characteristic are the same.

Your incorrect usage of the word stereotype is common, but still incorrect. To say that LeBron James is an athlete is not a stereotype. Saying that all African Americans are athletes is a stereotype.

Basing a character on a historical archetype is in no way or shape racist. The gypsy fortune teller was an actual occupation that some gypsy’s did in fact perform. This is the same thing as saying a player wanted to play a character based on a Zulu Warrior, or English Archer.

Strictly by the numbers this feat is numerically superior to multiple feats. Taken for Con it gives you toughness and half of great fortitude, plus extra HP before dying. Taken for STR it gives you +1 to hit and damage with all melee attacks, extra carrying capacity and a bonus on multiple skills. INT gives you an extra skill point per level, a bonus on the DC of your spells saves, and extra spells per day. I could go on but you get the idea.

A feat should be about equal to existing feats not clearly superior. Even at a +1 it is overpowered.

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|dvh| wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
|dvh| wrote:

So it's OK to play Asian-inspired concepts that define their characters as good at math?

Or people of African descent who are strong and athletic?

I mean, so long as you're portraying the stereotype in a positive manner, it's cool, right?

Like I said you are paying way to much attention to stereotypes. Most concepts can be traced back to something from either history or fiction. It seems to me that no matter what concept you have you take the chance of offending someone. So when I write up the NE druid who performs human sacrifices I take the chance at offending people of Irish decent. When I write up the sea reaver barbarian I risks offending those ancestors were Vikings. The inquisitor class is obviously an attack on the Catholic Church. My point is that any concept can be considered offensive if you chose to look at it that way.

Considering that the Varisian ethnicity is obviously based on the Romani maybe you should be a little less judgmental.

You didn't answer the question.

Well considering that Asia, and Africa does not exist in the campaigns I play in that is going to be difficult to do. Would I play a character from Tian Xia who has a high intelligence? Would I play a character from Mwangi with good physical stats? The answer to both questions is yes. Like I said anything can be considered a stereotype. The knights in shining armor, the savage barbarian, the seductive bard, the pious priest, the holy warrior, the clever rogue are all stereotypes. So according to you I can’t play a cavalier, a barbarian, a bard, a cleric, or a paladin just to name a few.

Almost all characters are going to be based on something that the person has seen or read. I doubt very seriously that any truly new concepts actually exist. Look at most builds that are posted on the boards and you will see that most of them play into stereotypes. I can’t count the number of times that I have seen someone recommend completely dumping one or more stats to max out the key stats. Does anyone complain about that?

The actual definition of a stereotype is. A stereotype is used to categorize a group of people. People don't understand that type of person, so they put them into classifications, thinking that everyone who is that needs to be like that, or anyone who acts like their classifications is one. So actually a gypsy fortune teller is not a stereotype unless you are saying that all gypsy’s are fortune tellers. A gypsy fortune teller would actually be an archetype instead of a stereotype.

|dvh| wrote:

So it's OK to play Asian-inspired concepts that define their characters as good at math?

Or people of African descent who are strong and athletic?

I mean, so long as you're portraying the stereotype in a positive manner, it's cool, right?

Like I said you are paying way to much attention to stereotypes. Most concepts can be traced back to something from either history or fiction. It seems to me that no matter what concept you have you take the chance of offending someone. So when I write up the NE druid who performs human sacrifices I take the chance at offending people of Irish decent. When I write up the sea reaver barbarian I risks offending those ancestors were Vikings. The inquisitor class is obviously an attack on the Catholic Church. My point is that any concept can be considered offensive if you chose to look at it that way.

Considering that the Varisian ethnicity is obviously based on the Romani maybe you should be a little less judgmental.

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People need to calm down and stop seeing racism in everything. Both the samurai and especially the ninja can be considered stereotypes. The druid is based loosely on a real world religion. The very term barbarian can be taken as offensive to some. The fact there is a class called witch could offend just as many people if not more than the term Gypsy fortune teller.

Considering the OP wants to play this concept because he thinks it is cool is probably a good indication he does not have a negative image of the stereotype.

Your group seems to have some decent damage dealers so bardic performances will be very useful. While your group probably does not have problems in combat by increasing all of them you add more damage than using spells in combat.

Most full casters will usually end up using a lot of their spells in combat. With a bard you have better things to do in combat so you can save your spell for out of combat. Most illusion and divination spells are better out of combat anyways.

Most of your group have very little magic except the inquisitor and even he has a limited number of spells. The bard is a CHA based character with UMD as a class skill and plenty of skill points to burn. Maxing out UMD will allow you to use a lot of items designed for other classes.

Onyxlion wrote:
The adept channel feat, for channel only no domain.

Inquisitors already have the domain class feature so no feat is needed. As a matter of fact if they are multiclassed their domain must match one of the cleric domains.

It may not be a full caster but a bard fits what you want. They get both Illusion and Divination spells. The bonus to all knowledge skills also fits the gypsy fortune teller. A good knowledge roll can often get you as much information as a divination spell, and sometimes even more.

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Since both the player and GM seem to be ok with the paladin having fallen for her acts people need to let go of the issue of whether the paladin should have fallen. I know everyone’s first instinct is to get into a paladin should/should not fall argument, but that is not what the original poster is asking.

It also seems that both the player and GM want to have this be more than just find a 9th level cleric and pay the fine. As a condition of casting the Atonement the cleric could require the paladin to complete a quest. Failure to complete the quest would cause her to fall all over again and make it even harder to regain her paladin status. Once the Atonement is cast the paladin would again be a full paladin. Abounding the quest would break the paladin’s code in so many ways it is not funny.

Another way to do it would be to have her earn back her class abilities. In order to regain smite evil she may need to defeat an evil opponent by herself. To regain lay on hands she may need have to fight to defend someone with little or no defenses knowing she is going to get hurt.

If you really want to test the paladin setup the quest, but also setup a situation where the paladin is faced with a choice between completing the quest and doing what is right. If the paladin does what is right thinking that she is going to permanently lose her paladinhood, she proved she is worthy of it and regains her abilities.

Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

for the rogue: better rogue talents. the barbarian rage powers should serve as a baseline--talents should be worth spending a feat on, not the other way around.

alternatively, change the slayer class name to 'rogue' and have paizo finally consign the rogue proper to oblivion and just admit it instead of dancing around the issue of releasing two more 'rogue but better' classes.

You are 100% right that rogues need better talents. There is nothing mechanically wrong with the rogue that decent talents will not fix.

I disagree.

Sneak attack has severe problems, and rogues are the skill class that is actually not that good at skills.

It is true that sneak attack has problems and that many classes are better skill monkeys than the rogue. Both of these problems could be solved with better rogue talents. If rogue had combat talents that did not rely on sneak attack, or that fixed some of the problems with sneak attack it would be extremely useful. Likewise if they had rogue talents that let them use their skills in way no one else could it would fix the problem with others being better skill monkeys.

Play an inquisitor and take a single level dip in cleric, and this feat

Channeling Scourge

Your zeal for hunting your faith’s enemies empowers your ability to channel divine energy, as long as you channel that energy for harm.

Prerequisite: Channel energy class feature, inquisitor level 1st.

Benefit: When you use channel energy to deal damage, your inquisitor levels count as cleric levels for determining the number of damage dice and the saving throw DC.

AndIMustMask wrote:

for the rogue: better rogue talents. the barbarian rage powers should serve as a baseline--talents should be worth spending a feat on, not the other way around.

alternatively, change the slayer class name to 'rogue' and have paizo finally consign the rogue proper to oblivion and just admit it instead of dancing around the issue of releasing two more 'rogue but better' classes.

You are 100% right that rogues need better talents. There is nothing mechanically wrong with the rogue that decent talents will not fix.

It is situational but depending on the character and the campaign it can be golden. Two of the most forgotten terrains are urban and underground. Urban may seem like a strange choice but it does give the ranger a boost. No one said you had to like your favored terrain. I can see a ranger who hates urban environments being more on edge when in town.

Underground is great if the GM goes for the classic dungeon crawl type of adventures.

An inquisitor is simply the agent of his deity. If someone is causing problems for a deity the inquisitor’s primary job is to fix the problem. Inquisitors are also useful for advancing the goals and interests of the church and, or deity. If the deity is associated with a particular concept or idea an inquisitor would be ideal to help.

Desna is a deity of travel, luck and freedom. She also actively opposes several deities especially Lamashtu because she is trying to reclaim the domains of beasts. An inquisitor of Desna would seek to protect traveler and oppressed people, and may also be working to thwart the followers of Lamashtu.

Cayden Cailean was a freedom fighter so it would make sense that his inquisitors would also be looking to protect others. As other have mentioned they would be actively working against the slave trade, but would also work to overthrow anyone oppressing the innocent. They would keep a sense of humor about them and try to encourage people to have a good time.

Shelyn is the goddess of love, beauty and art. He inquisitors will work to help those in love to be together. They would also be protectors of artists and other creative types. They would also be likely to be working to migrate some of the damage of Zon-Kuthon, but without directly opposing him.

Not all inquisitors need to be grim menacing figures. All deities have enemies, and many of the enemies may be subtle and not operating in the open. These are what the inquisitor is designed to deal with.

The problem is that with so few good talents it means that pretty much all rogues are going to be the same. If you look at the list there are only 9 talents listed as blue or better and major magic requires minor magic which is green so that means there are 10 good talents out of about 90 listed. Some of those listed as green are actually pretty weak. Canny Observer for example is listed as green but is worse than skill focus perception. Weapon Training is listed as blue, but is pretty weak as it only gives a +1 to hit with a single weapon. You could get more for a single level dip for fighter. Ninja tricks are also listed as green, but to make that work you almost have to take Ki Pool. If that is the case you might as well play a ninja.

The only problem with the rogue is the lack of good rogue talents. According to this guide 75% of the rogue talents are yellow or worse, which is about right. That means that only 25% of the talents are decent. The only 2 cyan talents swap out the talent for a combat feat. If getting a combat feat is broken and a must have then why bother with the rogue at all? Rogue talents should give the rogue something that no else can do, not give him what other classes already do better. When they start writing some decent rogue talents especially for out of combat then the rogue will be fine. Until then it is a weak class.

Since there is no spell called holy water you cannot use empower spell on it. The spell bless water is used to create holy water so empower does not work on it. Bless water has no variables it creates a single flask of holy water. Only the spell itself can be empowered not the side effects of the spell. This would be the same as casting an empowered masterwork transformation, which is to say no effect.

Saving Finale is not a good spell for an archeologist since your only performance is luck this means it is a self only spell. Also once you get higher level it becomes even less useful. Once you have heroism and archeologist luck going you will not be failing many saving throws. A better spell would be windy escape especially at first level. The ability to become temporarily immune to poison, sneak attacks or critical hits will always remain useful.

Vanish is also of limited use at first level it is only going to last a single round. You will be getting access to invisibility at 4th level which is a much better spell. You cannot switch out spells until 5th level so that is not so bad but I would wait till at least 2nd level to pick it Vanish. Expeditious Retreat is a surprisingly good spell for an Archeologist. Remember you take a penalty to stealth for moving at over half speed. With the spell you can effectively use stealth at full speed. Once you get fast stealth it becomes even better because then you are moving at 60’ and taking no penalty to stealth.

Mage Hand is going to be a lot more useful for an archeologist than prestidigitation. Also keep in mind that sift allows you to check for traps at 30’ but your perception roll at 1st level may not be high enough to make it useful yet. Read Magic is also going to be one you will want to pick up when you get a chance.

With a low point buy your stats are going to be lower than I usually play at. I would probably leave both INT and WIS at 10. You could even lower you CHA to 13 and put the extra point into DEX 18, and STR 10. The extra DEX is going to be more important at lower levels. The only thing you really need the CHA for is spells and as long as you get 14 CHA by 10th, 15 CHA by 13th and 16 CHA by 16th you can are fine.

It looks like you are going for Dervish dance which would be another reason to get your DEX to 18 from the start. The earliest you can pick up dervish dance is 3rd level but just remember to reserve 2 skill points for perform dance. This would allow you to pick up lingering performance at 5th. If you went the whip and slashing grace you would have to wait till 5th level to get slashing grace as it requires weapon focus. This would mean you don’t get lingering performance until 7th. That is a long time to wait to triple your rounds of luck.

Your favored class bonus should probably be put into rounds of extra performance. A +1 to everything for one round is in most cases better than a permanent +1 to a single skill. With lingering performance each extra round is actually 3 extra rounds. Once you have enough rounds then you can use the human favored bonus to pick up extra spells. Either of those options will probably be better than the +1 skill.

Unless you plan to multiclass you should probably take the Arcane Training alternative racial trait. +1 CL level for spell trigger/completion items is not much but it is still better than nothing. Speaking of multiclassing I would not recommend that.

The trait criminal will give you a total of +4 to disable device +1 trait bonus and +3 for it becoming a class skill. I would probably go for this over armor expert. You will be able to get a mithral chain shirt for only 1,100 GP once you get some gold.

Your first two rogue talents should be trap spotter and fast stealth.

A hunter is able to use all martial weapons and has access to both ranger and druid spells. Hunters also get all the summon natures ally spells in addition to the normal spells for their level. They also get improved empathic link and the ability to see through their companions eyes. Wild Empathy also allows them some influence over normal animals. Woodland stride gives him an edge when it comes to moving in the wilderness.

Since the rules do not specify the code of conduct required by each deity that leaves it up to the GM. My basic interpretation of this is that the cleric must work to extend the power and influence of the deity. Each deity has a portfolio as long as you are what you are doing is in line with the portfolio you are good. A Cleric of Iomedae who lies, cheats and acts like a coward is not living up to the teaching of his goddess and becomes an ex cleric. The portfolio for Urgathoa is gluttony, disease, and undeath so her clerics need are going to be creating undead, spreading disease and encouraging overindulgence.

If you can walk the razors edge more power to you. But when you start doing more evil deeds than good, or do deeds good enough to anger your deity you become an ex cleric. This is the same for any deity. If you are a cleric of Iomedae and start acting dishonorable you will also become an ex cleric.

No Deity is going to grant spells to someone who does not advance their cause. If I have a player running a cleric who routinely ignores the teaching of his deity he becomes an ex cleric. Admittedly this is a very grey area and it is up to the GM to make the call.

Not supporting his church would be the violation not the alignment step. Also in the case of Urgathoa they are supposed to be helping people become undead. That is an evil act according to the rules.

There is a big difference between a worshiper and a cleric. A worshiper can be of any alignment including a diametrically opposed alignment. The cleric on the other hand has to stay within one step of his deity or he becomes an ex cleric. This can also happen if he violates the teachings of his deity.

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).

While falling from grace is not as common for a cleric as it is a paladin it is still part of the class. A cleric who does not help his church in my opinion becomes an ex cleric.

To me this is a roleplaying issue. I have seen to many people who want to play a cleric as just another caster that happens to be able to wear armor. I have also seen too many players play a supposedly neutral cleric of an evil god, but instead of remaining neutral they are outright evil. I am not saying it is impossible to remain neutral while worshiping an evil god, just it is very difficult. Also some deities have more flexibility in this Asmodeus is a good example of this.

Where do I advocate killing anything? I simply said that someone who knowingly and willingly aids an evil organization is just as guilty as the organization. I have not posted a single post suggesting any kind of punishment or solution to evil. My point has been that anyone who knowingly and willingly serves evil will eventually become evil. RAW it is possible to be a true neutral cleric to an evil god, but my stance is that eventually you are going to cross the line.

When you allow the innocent to be sacrificed for power you are evil at that point. It does not matter if you are the one wielding the knife you still have committed an evil act.

Change the Nazi references to whatever lawful evil god you want and my point is still valid.

Prepared divine casters have a huge advantage over spontaneous divine casters. Knowing the entire spell list as soon as you are able to cast the level of spell is a major advantage. Inquisitors are already one of the most versatile classes in the game; by having their spell casting be spontaneous it weakens them a little. They have a very good spell list and if they had access to the whole thing they would be able to run roughshod over almost anything. Paladins on the other hand don’t have much in the way of spells so by being prepared it gives them a little more versatility which they need.

You are the one who keeps bringing up paladins and detect evil. What I am talking about is that the fact that a cleric are servants of their deity. They like paladins can lose their status if they violate the teachings of their god.

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).

You are right about one thing that the spell detects evil alone is not enough to justify a paladin from attacking there are too many ways it can be fooled. You could even have a Lawful Evil cleric of a lawful neutral deity that detects as both lawful and evil. The Lawful aura would of course be stronger than the evil.

Some deities don’t care about part of the alignment grid. A worshiper of a NG good is ok with both lawful good, neutral good and chaotic good worshipers. They will even welcome the rare true neutral character who wants to follow them. This character will be under a tremendous pressure to become good. If the worshiper is a cleric it is going to be even harder. I don’t see how a cleric of a NG god can honestly preach that you should help others out of the goodness of your heart and not slowly shift alignment.

The same is true for a NE deity. If your religion practices sacrifice of unwilling sentient creatures it is going to be very hard to remain true neutral. The deity in question is the goddess of undead and disease. Her priests regularly engage in mass murder, forced cannibalism, and spreading of disease. This is a goddess dedicated to evil, not a borderline case.

Like I said if you want to play an evil character that is fine, just be honest about it.

How am I being a hypocrite about the Nazi? I have already said they were the most evil and vile organization mankind has seen. I have also stated that those that knowingly and willing aided them are guilty, not everyone who worked with them. Stop putting words into my mouth.

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