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Kaladin_Stormblessed wrote:

My take on this:

General question: No, that's not strictly outside the bounds of Lawful Good, as an isolated incident and/or a moment of poor judgment on the character's part. I'd frown on a LG character regularly handling things in such a fashion. Threatening innocents should be very much a last resort, and the first course of action should ideally have been something else. Mass enchantments, Diplomacy over Intimidate, trying to scare them WITHOUT the threat of death, etc. The character's actions were not LG, but not so severe (alone) as to merit an alignment change.

Specific instance: I don't think your GM was in the wrong to change your alignment, because I get the impression it was NOT an isolated incident, and as you indicated, the character was already acting more LN.

Lawful alignments are quite willing to impose their views on others even if they are not willing. So saying the lawful good character cannot use intimidation before exhausting literally every other option is kind of silly. Lawful alignments are also not that interested in freedom that is a chaotic hang up. Lawful societies have rules and punishments for breaking those rules. How is this any different than making a law that says if you steal you will be put in prison, and if you resist any force necessary to take you will be used to apprehend you?

You are also advocating the use of magic to impose your actions on another person as being less evil that threatening a person. I would say that using magic to force someone to do something is a lot worse than using intimidate. Many people think that using magic to control someone’s mind is actually very evil.

Also note that the original poster did in fact try all other options.


The innocents were already in danger due the fact they had disease infected flowers in their possession. I think that allowing a person to contract a possibly fatal disease when you can prevent it is the evil act. Letting Timmy run around with a flower that is not only going to kill him, but also kill multiple other people is not a good act. If Timmy does not want to give up the flower you take it from him and dispose of it. If he tries to run away you chase after him and forcibly take the flower from him. Using excessive force would be an evil act, but using enough force to get the job done is fine.

You could argue that you should try and talk the people into giving up the flowers before resorting to other means. But everyone seems to be ignoring that the original poster stated that he did in fact try to use diplomacy and failed. He then tried to intimidate them into doing the right thing and also failed. Only at that time did the party resort to actual force. So what was the player supposed to do? Let Timmy keep the infected flower? Also note that it was the hunter not the inquisition who actually resorted to violence. It seems to me that what people are saying is that failing a diplomacy roll, and then trying to still act is evil.


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Threatening someone with great bodily harm is not the same as doing great bodily harm to them. Saying a lawful good character cannot use intimidate to prevent untold death and destruction is ludicrous. Good societies use threats and intimidation all the time. The whole concept of heaven and hell is basically a threat of eternal pain and suffering if you don’t’ act in the prescribed manner. So telling a small child that he is going to burn in hell for all eternity if he does a particular action is fine. But telling him to drop a disease infected flower, or you will beat the crap out of him is evil. Considering he is a child his fortitude save is probably low so the flower is more than likely going to kill him anyways. It will not only kill the child, but it will also kill multiple other people.

Inquisitors are allowed great freedom in how they act as long as they are acting in the interest of their deity. I don’t really think that letting a child spread a disease is in the interest of Torag. In fact the entire crowd should have been contained until after they had been checked for the disease. Allowing infected people to spread a dangerous disease is neither a good, nor lawful act. Preventing the spread of said disease on the other hand qualifies as both lawful (in the interest of the community) and good (helping people).

Also note that bluff is an inquisitor skill which means they are pretty good at telling lies.


You could always go for a warpriest and take the champion of the faith archetype.


In a magical world a spy will need a way to deal with magic. That means they probably need to have magic of their own. Bards, Inquisitors and Investigators would all make very good spies. The archeologist or the detective archetype would probably make the best spies. Many of the other archetypes would probably not work as well. The Inquisitor is pretty much a divine agent so is pretty much going to be your default divine spy. Almost any investigator is going to do quite well as a spy. The infiltrator and mastermind archetypes are extremely well suited for a spy.


The traditional role of the cleric is healing and support.

Healing is mainly restoring HP and condition removal. Most of this can now be handled with magic items instead of spells. But keep in mind for this to work you need someone who can actually use the wands and scrolls. So you either need someone with those spells on their spell list, or you need someone with a good enough UMD that they can use the magic items with little or no chance of failure. It also includes bringing a person back from being dead.

Support generally is about three things increasing the abilities of your allies, protecting your allies from harm and utility and gathering information. Clerics have some of the best buff spells in the game, about the only one who can compare to them are bards. They also have probably the best selection of defensive spells in the game. Utility and information is not exclusive to the cleric but they do have some unique spells like augury and commune. They tend to be a little more reliable than arcane divination, but are often more narrowly focused.

The last thing clerics traditionally excel at is dealing with undead and outsiders. Typically an arcane caster does a better job at blasting except for when it comes to undead and outsiders. Show me a 2nd level arcane spell that caps out at 10d6 points of damage. Spear of purity and its variants normally do 1d8 points of damage per 2 caster levels and max out at 5d8 at 10th level, but when dealing with an outsider of the appropriate alignment it changes to 1d6 per level maxing out at 10d6. Planar ally is a lot safer than using planar binding. The cleric simply bargains with the outsider for services rendered, where the wizard has to force the outsider to and may end up getting attacked by the outsider he is summoning.


Any class can work if it fits your needs. If the question is does it give up too much is a whole different question. Even that question is also subject to personal preference.

The mystic theurge is going to be weaker than a single class caster because of three reasons one is that you don’t get your highest level spells. Second is like you mentioned it does not advance class features other than spell casting. The last reason is that you do in fact lose caster levels. To qualify you need to take at least 3 levels of each class so that puts you three levels behind on caster level. Magic knack can offset some of the issue, but it only applies to the level based variables of the spell, not in gaining spells. You are using a oracle/sorcerer instead so the problem is even worse you now have to give u 4 caster levels on each class instead of three. Your classes are also spontaneous casters so have a limited number of spells known.

You could use the wildblooded archetype and chose Empyreal for your bloodline. This changes the casting stat to WIS instead of CHA. This would allow you to use cleric instead of an oracle. This way you would qualify with only 3 levels of cleric and 4 levels of sorcerer. As prepared divine caster clerics automatically know all spells of a level they are able to cast. This is actually a huge benefit for the mystic theurge.

The other thing that makes this viable is the fact that full casters are so much more powerful than other classes. If your party does not include a lot of full casters than it actually works out pretty well. If the party does not include a full caster it would probably be a better choice anyways. Not only do you cover all the casting you are also reducing your power closer to the rest of the group.


The reason it has ninja in it is that it is actually a ninja talent; rogues get it as a class ability and don’t need a use a talent to gain it. It also states in the slayer that the slayer is able to pick certain rogue and ninja talents in place of a slayer talent. The rogue and ninja came out long before the slayer so of course their descriptions will not include mention of the slayer. When you take a talent from another class you take the whole thing not just parts of it. Any restrictions on the original talent are still in effect.

There are many reasons a ninja might be wearing more than light armor. While ninja are only proficient with light armor there is nothing to prevent them from multiclassing with a class that is proficient with heavier armor. Also if the ninja is trying to disguise himself as someone who would normally wear heavier armor he will probably need to don it. There is also nothing that says a ninja has to be a DEX based character. Unlike the unchained rogue they don’t actually gain any class ability that requires a high DEX. You could just as easily build a STR based ninja as a DEX based one. Considering how difficult it is to get DEX to damage a STR based ninja may be more efficient.


I think the confusion is that you are talking about flurry of blows not actual two weapon fighting. It pretty much is two weapon fighting with some additional benefits. One it can be used with any combination of unarmed attacks, or monk weapons. Second is that you get your full STR bonus on all attacks. You also get additional attacks as you gain levels in the class that grants flurry. If you take levels in another class this does not increase your extra attacks from flurry.

So at first level you can gain an extra attack, but all your attacks take a -2 penalty. When your BAB from any, and all classes reaches +6 BAB you gain an additional attack at +1. If you flurry at this point you are +4/+4/-1. You keep gaining additional attacks as your BAB rises. When you reach 8th level in the class that grants you flurry you gain a second attack at the same BAB as your second normal attack. So a 8th level brawler has a BAB of +8. This gives him two attacks when not using flurry at +8/+3. If he uses flurry he gets 4 attacks +6/+6/+1/+1. If he took 4 levels of fighter instead of going up in brawler he would still have a BAB of +8 and would have the same number of attacks when not flurrying (+8/+3). When he uses flurry he only gets a single extra attack which would be +6/+6/+1. When you gain a 15 level in the class that grants flurry he gets a third extra attack at the same BAB as his third normal attack. So the 15th level brawler has +15/+10/+5 when not using flurry. If he uses flurry he is +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3. If he took 4 levels of brawler and the rest as fighter he would have the same number of attacks when not flurrying and gain a single extra attack when flurrying. This would work out to +13/+13/+8/+3. Any bonuses to hit from STR, feats, or anything else do not affect your number of attacks in any way.

BAB stand for Base Attack Bonus. This is not your final total, but rather your starting point.


I am making a couple of assumptions and could be wrong. First as a sorcerer your CHA is you highest stat. You also put points into DEX and CON for survivability. STR is your low stat. That leaves INT and WIS. Sorcerers get good will saves and horrible skill so any remaining points went into INT, but probably not a whole lot. The way you described your character also seems to fit.

Also you never mentioned if the Chronomancer was in any way responsible for, or could have prevented your mother’s death. If the answer is yes that you would definitely go after him with everything you can. If not then it is more a matter of you being forced to do something you did not want to do. If he is responsible for your mother’s death you are probably going to do everything you can to take him out no matter the consequences. If you see a chance to kill him you will probably take it. If on the other hand he could not have saved her your response should be more restrained. You will take more time to plan your revenge so that you can succeed.


When Pathfinder first came out and it was limited to core rule book only there was a much more defined line between divine and arcane magic. This was even more defined in early games like 1st edition AD&D. In the core rule book bards are the only arcane caster who gets any healing at all, and even they lack most of the condition removal spells that a healer needs. Now with the alchemist, investigator, witch and archetypes for other classes that is no longer the case. Many gamers, especially those who have been gaming for a long time, still have it in their mind you need a divine caster. Also when they talk about divine caster they are more often than not talking about a cleric.

With classes like alchemist and witch this is no longer the case. Also many of the archetypes also give spells and abilities that were once only available to divine casters. Many of the newer divine casters have a similar feel to the cleric so people lump them together and feel comfortable with them replacing the cleric. This is often true with the oracle due to his limited number of spell. Yes he gets all the cure spells for free, but does not have the condition removal spells. More than likely he is not going to waste any of his spell slots on conditional spells unless they are granted by his mystery.

So basically unless you are playing with only the core rule book you no longer need any particular class. You do however need a character to fill the role that class traditionally played.


Divine casters have several advantages. First and most obvious is that they are full casters. Secondly they also have decent combat ability. Being able to wear armor and having a ¾ BAB allows them to deal with combat a lot better than most arcane casters. Most of them also have good fortitude and will save. Since will saves are based on WIS which is usually their casting stat they have the best will saves in the game. They also usually get d8 for HP giving them more HP than full arcane casters. Combined this gives them very good survivability.

For prepared divine caster getting access to their entire spell list instead of knowing a limited number is a huge advantage. Clerics especially have a lot of situational spells, but when the situation comes up those spells are usually incredibly important. Condition removal spells are a perfect example. If you have not taken any temporary ability damage lesser restoration is almost completely useless, but if you have taken the damage it is incredibly useful. Druids also have a very versatile spell list and get a little bit of everything including a surprising number of blast spells.

All of them also get a decent number of special abilities. Clerics get 2 domains and channel energy. Druids get a lot of special abilities like wild shape, animal companions, Oracles get revelations. All of them also have at least some spontaneous magic. Clerics can swap out any spell for a cure, druids do the same thing with summon natures ally. Oracles are spontaneous casters, and actually get more spells than a sorcerer of the same level due to knowing either the cure, or inflict spells.

So in conclusion divine casters get better combat ability and survivability than an arcane caster. The get access to more spells. , they all have significant other abilities and can usually match or exceed the number of spells an arcane caster gets. That is a pretty decent package.


Since rangers get weaker animal companions than a druid it makes sense that the rangers wild shape should also follow the same progression. Also since rangers have a limited scope of animal companions it makes sense a ranger wild shape would be similarly limited.

This also allows you to use your skills and other abilities in animal form so would be more useful. If you gain the physical stats of the animal you should gain the mental stats as well. That means that your INT drops to 2 and are no longer sentient. This creates a huge problem with being able to change back or even wanting to. If you don’t keep your class abilities how are you changing back?


The parts I bolded show that the triggering condition is the same. All of them are triggered off the same melee attack The reason my argument is simplistic is that it is not a complicated situation. I walk up to you and stab you with a sword. That is a single attack, which means that it will trigger at most one attack of opportunity. Also all those abilities specifically call out being triggered by a melee attack even though there are other things that can trigger an attack of opportunity. You cannot use them when someone cast a spell or makes a ranged attack. If the spell requires a touch attack then the touch attack qualifies.


All of these are being triggered by the exact same melee attack, so you cannot use them together.

Disrupting Counter:
At 3rd level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against her, she can spend 1 panache point to make an attack of opportunity against the attacking foe. This attack of opportunity can be made with either a dagger or a starknife. If the attack hits, the opponent takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls until the end of its turn.

Stylish Riposte:
When your AC exceeds the result of a foe's melee attack against you by 5 or more, that foe provokes an attack of opportunity from you. Once you make such an attack of opportunity against a foe, you can't again use this trick against the foe that day. If her result is greater than the attacking creature's result, the creature's attack automatically misses. The swashbuckler must declare the use of this ability after the creature's attack is announced, but before its attack roll is made.

Opportune Parry and Riposte:
At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the swashbuckler, she can spend 1 panache point and expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack. The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity; for each size category the attacking creature is larger than the swashbuckler, the swashbuckler takes a –2 penalty on this roll.

Technically the attack of opportunity from the opportune parry and riposte is being triggered by your parry, but the parry itself is being triggered by the original melee attack. You would need three separate attacks for this to work.

Stylish rogue does not trigger off of your AC it triggers off the melee attack. The AC requirement is an additional limitation on the trick.


First of all you only get a single attack of opportunity per round, unless you have combat reflexes. Even with combat reflexes you can only take a single attack of opportunity per action that provokes it. Since the thing that is provoking the attacks of opportunity is a single attack that means that you can only get a single attack of opportunity off of it.

Also the penalty to hit form Disrupting Counter would not apply to the original attack anyways because it is made before the Disrupting Counter took place. You cannot retroactively apply penalties on things that have already happened. If this were true that would mean that all the attacks that the opponent had made in the past take a -4 to hit making some of them now miss and changing history.

Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity bonus to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

Sorry but this simply does not work. About the only thing you have right is that with a Fortuitous weapon you can get a second attack of opportunity against a foe assuming you hit, but it is at a -5 penalty.


The rules are clear that you cannot assign your favored class ability to something you don’t have. But what about the retraining rules? Could those be used to retrain your favored class ability once you gain the ability? That would mean that effectively you can assign a favored class bonus to a higher level class ability.


I would allow him to trade the animal companion for the wild shape ability of a druid, but limited to a single animal chosen when he gains the ability. His effective level of druid would be equal to his ranger level -3, the same as it is for animal companion. In all other ways it would be wild shape.


Instead of investigator play an alchemist. They get not only alchemy but also get bombs and can even change the bombs to other forms of energy with the right discovery. The investigator is kind of a mix of alchemist and rogue. They also have a more scientific feel, even if it is more of a mad scientist.


There are plenty of point based systems, but Pathfinder is not one of them and trying to make it one would require a complete rewrite of the game. The Hero system may be what you are looking for. It is a point based system with no classes or levels.


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Mythic relies on gaining mythic tiers which are completely separate from levels. You could ignore this and automatically grant mythic tiers but that really changes the nature of a mythic game. A It also adds a lot of complications to the game. A 10th level character with a 5 mythic tiers is a lot more powerful than normal, but a 15th level character with a single mythic tier is not really all that much more powerful than a normal 15th level character. By the same token a 1st level character who somehow manages to gain 3 mythic tiers is really not that powerful. The 1st level character simply does not have the powerbase to begin with.

Gestalt is designed to give a smaller group all the abilities of a larger group, but with fewer players. Some of the combinations can be quite powerful, but as Drahliana Moonruner points out you still have problems with the action economy. A sorcerer/oracle on the surface looks like it should be able to cover the roll of both the cleric and wizard, but they can still only cast a single spell per round. Also without a larger group a lot of the buff spells kind of lose a lot of steam. Haste on a party of four is really good, but on a party of 2 it a lot weaker.

One way to deal with the action economy issue is to use classes that give extra creatures like animal companions, eidolons, and familiars can all help with the action economy. You may also want to start at a higher level than first to give more survivability.

My suggestion would be to use the gestalt rules and make sure at least one class on each character gives a follower. For example use a zen archer/sacred huntmaster. Also look at archetypes that allow multiple companions and the feat boon companion.


Read the Eternal Champion series by Michael Moorcock especially the Elric of Menibone books. It focuses on Law and Chaos, but that is basically the where the game draws its inspiration from. It’s even listed in the recommended reading from the 1st edition of D&D.


Are you using only the core rule book? The reason I am asking is that all three of your characters so far are prepared divine casters so have access to their entire spell list. While this may be a little much to throw at a beginner, especially a pre-teen, maybe you can cherry pick some spells that will be useful from the other books. The druid spell list is actually one of the most versatile in the game. It has a little bit of everything and as previously mentioned do very well at battle field control and summoning. They also have a decent amount of blast spells even if they are mostly fire spells.

If you expanded the books available your sister would have more options to play a pseudo martial character. A Magus or Skald would actually work well for her.


I have to agree that most healing can be done with a wand of cure light wounds and some potions or scrolls. Use the wand to heal HP and scrolls for condition removal. But keep one thing in mind that for this to work you need a character who can use the wands and scrolls. While the ranger can use the wand he will have problems with using the scrolls as most of the condition removal spells are not on his list. Playing a supporting character is something useful, but to really do it right you don’t focus on healing, you focus on boosting your party. Use items for healing whenever possible and save your spells for helping the party overcome situations. Just make sure that the cost of the healing items comes out of the party budget not your personal share.

Traps are only a small portion of what a skill monkey should be taking care of. Anyone with a good perception roll can find traps. Disable device will allow you to deal with mundane traps, and dispel magic will often take care of magical traps. That leaves three basic things for the skill monkey to handle. Social skill, knowledge skills and recon skills are what you need to be able to do.

The inquisitor can handle all of these. Play a half orc and take improved monster lore as your first level feat. Put one point into each of the knowledge skills for identifying monster. Then put your favored class bonus into intimidate and identify. Take either the conversion, or heresy inquisition to get WIS for social skills. Max out intimidate,sense motive and perception. Distribute the rest of the skill fairly evenly. Also dump CHA to the floor as you don’t need it for anything.


I also have identical creatures go on the same initiative. Don’t worry so much about characters going first or last. Who goes first is only really important in the first turn. After this is basically taking turns going.

Also if you accidently skip a couple of monsters don’t sweat it. Players on the other hand get angry if you skip them. The most important thing in large battles is to keep the action going.


It was in Hero Maker along with other unchained archetypes for the other unchained classes. They changed some of the abilities around to match the unchained monk. It is not official but seems to work fairly well.

I run a full range of combat styles from large number of weaker creatures to a single extremely tough creature. I also often add a bunch of minions to boss fights so there are more enemies for my players to deal with. Limiting yourself to a single style of encounter is boring and predictable. I know the abilities of my players and like to push them to their limits without going overboard. Right after the mass battle was the battle with the BBEG who setup the previous encounter. They needed to battle through his hordes of undead to get to him.


Looking over all the options I found something that is even better than what I had before. There is a zen archer archetype for the unchained monk. Using this with the sanctified slayer archetype for the inquisitor creates an even better combination. You lose judgements but gain the slayers studied target and sneak attack. You also gain a limited number of slayer talents. This gives you the option of regaining evasion. This also gives you full BAB and better HP as well as some interesting Ki powers.

While the slayers studied target is slightly weaker than the investigators studied combat neither it nor sneak attack has any limit on duration or uses per day. You can also use the bonus on certain skills which gives it some out of combat utility. Most of the skills it gives a bonus to are skills the build is strong in anyways but every bit helps.

The zen archer archetype would of course require GM permission.


When I run I don’t limit myself to level appropriate challenges. I often throw numerous weaker foes at the party for several reasons. One it gives the players a chance to feel powerful, and often leads the players into a false sense of security. After slaughtering a couple dozen mooks running into the BBEG is always a shock, especially when he does not look all that much different than the mooks. It also gives the action economy advantage to the monsters. Second it makes the players really pay attention to using limited resources. Noting sucks worse than the paladin wasting his smite evil on a zombie only to encounter a mummy latter in the game. Also by mixing up the enemies it makes them be more careful about all encounters.

This can lead to some memorable fights. I once had the party kill off nearly two hundred Black Skeletons in a single encounter. The party was heavily optimized to fighting undead as it is the major focus of the campaign. The fight lasted around 14 turns. Each of the characters could drop a multiple skeletons per round and the cleric cut a wide swath of destruction. I base my advice on my own play style so the ability to fight in extended fights is valuable. I make heavy use of a laptop so the battles don’t bog down. This battle did take an entire game session though but no one was bored. I also have some very tough single BBEG so my players need to be able to do both types of combat.

The biggest flaw I see in the fighter/investigator build is that it can be shut down fairly easily. You don’t have point blank master which means you provoke AoO when firing next to someone. Also all you feats and abilities are invested in the bow so if something happens to it you are severely limited. The zen archer/inquisitor can be in the middle of melee and still get a full attack with the bow. And if for some reason he is not able to use the bow many of his abilities are still able to be used.


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Is the unchained rogue set in stone? If you are just looking for a dwarf character to deal with traps consider a ranger. Both the trapper and urban archetypes give you trap finding. Personally I think a trapper ranger would be better. This way you still get favored terrain (underground).


Melkiador wrote:
Quote:
In the case of saving throws, using inspiration is an immediate action rather than a free action.

Combat inspiration only uses an immediate action for saves. Using it for attacks is a free action. At low level you only use it when you miss by just a few points. Although at level 9 you are tempted to use it every attack, to get the doubled damage bonus with the talent and enchant combo.

Jumping over to the fighter side, I just discovered the Warrior Spirit option for advanced weapon training. It takes a standard action, but is otherwise like bane on steroids. It was strong enough to get banned from PFS, but since this is a gestalt game, I would assume it's on the table.

Thanks I missed that somehow. It still takes one use per attack though. That really limits how often you can use it. With an archer the whole point is getting as many attacks as you can and adding up all the damage. Burning through half your daily uses in a single round is pretty expensive. This means the investigator is going to actually be able to use this less often than an inquisitor uses judgements. So the investigator does not have an advantage in reliable damage.

Also studied strike is precision damage so does not multiple on a critical hit. This further puts the zen archer/inquisitor ahead on damage. Especially when you reach 10th level and can roll three times to hit and chose the highest roll. Assuming improved critical or some other method of getting a 19-20 threat range this gives the zen archer a 27% chance to crit.

Don’t get me wrong I think the investigator is a very good class, but in a gestalt campaign the zen archer /inquisitor is a better archer.


I was starting to think that the investigator could actually make a decent archer so I looked up his abilities. In doing so I discovered a major flaw in the build. Inspiration can only be used once per check or roll. This means that each attack use a 1 inspiration. Combat inspiration uses an immediate action not a free action. An immediate action uses your swift action, and you only get a single swift action per round. So you can only use combat inspiration on one attack. Combat inspiration reduces the cost of using inspiration in combat, but it does not change the type of action it uses. Even greater combat inspiration does not change the type of action.

There may be something I am missing but I don’t see a way to get combat inspiration to work on more than a single attack per turn. Even if there is something that does reduce to a free action you still have to spend 1 inspiration per attack until you get greater combat inspiration. That means that you will be going through your pool in a couple of rounds, not a couple of combats. Judgments last the entire combat. Even if he leaves the combat and comes back the judgement is still active.

Studied combat also use a swift action (with quick study) and can only be used on one target at a time and only last a limited time. This makes it useless against multiple targets per round. It also means that just like the inquisitor the investigator will take several rounds to fully buff himself up . Once buffed the inquisitor is ready to go and only needs to use an action if he needs to change something. All his abilities continue to function until the combat is over, or in the case of bane he runs out of rounds. The investigator is constantly using swift and move actions to keep his abilities functioning.


Azten wrote:
nate lange wrote:
@atzen- I've actually played that combo twice; I really like it but I'm not sure how well it would work as an archer...
A Dervish of Dawn Bard is an amazing archer. Battle Dances are not melee only, so you can take feats like Rapid Shot, Many Shot, etc and really pump out some damage. Pity whatever you use Smite Evil on.

While what you are suggesting is normally a solid combination in this case it is probably the worst choice for the original poster. If you check the original post the alignments are limited to lawful evil, or neutral evil. This means that both the paladin and antipaladin are of limits. Playing an ex paladin/bard is a pretty bad choice.


A couple of more advantages to the zen archer/inquisitor.

More attacks per round than any other archer. (9 normal attacks per round at 17th level with Divine Power or haste) With combat reflexes and a 14 DEX you can actually get 12 attacks.

Better defenses vs magic due to Stalwart. (Completely ignoring an effect if you make your save is hard to beat)

Better maneuverability Fast Movement, High Jump, Abundant Step, and Empty Body.

They not only get more flexibility with feats, they actually get more feats period. Both the Monk and Inquisitor give you bonus feats.

Zen Archers are the only ones who can ignore total cover and total concealment. They are also the only ones who can roll 3d20 and take the highest when rolling to hit. This also significantly increases the chance to critical with a bow.

The biggest advantage they have is they have so many ways to increase their abilities and they all stack with each other.

What they are best at is taking down the BBEG. They do very well vs. the minions but really shine when taking down the boss.


The biggest problem I see is when a particular build requires equipment more expensive than starting gold can afford. Archers for example will be particularly hard hit because a bow with a STR bonus is way beyond what a first level character can afford. Heavy armor is also very expensive for a first level character. If you are starting the characters at higher than first level this will not be much of a problem. If you are starting at first level you may want to start them with more starting gold. Beyond 3rd level this is not a problem so maybe starting each character out with 3,000 gp. This would also allow characters with spell books to purchase extra spells. In this case I would allow them to purchase some higher level spells they cannot cast yet but are in their books for when the gain access to those spell.

Second is that the characters are going to need a lot more equipment and have to lug it around. Make sure your players know this so they don’t dump STR. Most of the time purchasing a handy haversack or bag of holding takes care of this. Doing so in this campaign is going to be difficult and would kind of go against the feel of the campaign.

As several other have suggested using the ABP rules will work very well for a campaign like this. . Between the ABP and your dwarf NPC they will probably have the permanent magic items covered. Crafting of magic items will also be useful but more for consumable items like potions, scrolls and wands. Having a character that can make the seldom needed, but important items will be almost necessary. An alchemist or a cleric with scribe scroll or craft potion would work well for this


Yea it looks like Hero Labs is messing up the math. Sorry about that.

By 9th level the zen archer/inquisitor is actually getting even better. He gets an additional attack with his flurry, and also gets Second Judgement. This means he now gets both a bonus to hit and damage. He can now use judgments 3 times per day. Reflex shot also comes online at this point giving him more attacks. By this time he can also afford a bane baldric which boosts his bane to greater bane and gives him 14 rounds per day.

Neither Coordinated Shot, nor Enfilading Fire requires any kind of action at all. Both of them simply require proper positioning of your allies.

The investigator seems to give you more options, but I think the zen archer/inquisitor makes a better archer. Given a little warning they can pretty much take down anything. Especially they get their third roll for perfect strike. Rolling 3d20 and being able to take the one that rolls the highest really improves your chance of getting a critical hit. It actually makes it worthwhile to tack improved critical for the bow.


A couple of errors on your build studied strike gives you ½ your investigator level not your level so you only get +3, not +6. You are also forgetting you -2 for rapid shot. That brings your bonus to hit down to +15/+15/+10 you can add your inspiration to that total, but you only have a limited number of times you can do this. This also brings down your damage by 3. If you drink your DEX Mutagen your bonus to hit goes up to +17/+17/+12 Not sure why you chose a short bow but assuming you are using a longbow your damage is 1d8+9

Second you don’t have improve precise shot more often than not your target will have cover from you. Usually in the form of your own melee focused teammates. This means you are effectively taking a -4 to hit. Technically your target gets +4 AC, but the end result is the same. Precise Shot removes the penalty for firing into a melee, but not the bonus for cover. The zen archer/inquisitor is actually gaining a +4 bonus in these circumstances due to his teamwork feats.

So fully buffed up you have +17/+17/+12, but effectively you have +13/+13/+8. Fully buffed up my build has +22/+22/+22/+15. You do 18+9 points of damage, where I am doing 1d8+2d6 +14. I am getting a full attack every round regardless of enemies being next to me. If you are surrounded you provoke AoO or have to move which means you are probably not getting a full attack.

You get 1 skill point more per level than I do, but I get large bonus’s to numerous skills so overall I come out ahead on this as well. You actually have less HP because I had the points to spend on CON. You beat me on reflex saves, but your other saves are worse. When you are using your mutagen for DEX your will save is crap.

Magic wise I come out ahead mainly because I get 0 level spells. They may not be powerful but I can keep casting them all day long. Guidance basically gives me a +1 on attack roll, saving throw or skill roll. While not really useful in combat it works well for skills out of combat. Sift allows me to search something at range which is always good.


Improved precise shot is one of, if not the most important feat for an archer. The zen archer gets it at 6th level. A fighter has to wait for 11th. An inquisitor also get free teamwork feats two of which are archery based and can use the feats even if other people don’t have them.

See my build above for details. Go ahead and post a build for your suggestions for comparison.


Sample build for inquisitor/zen archer

Tiefling Archer
Oni-spawn tiefling inquisitor 6/monk (zen archer) 6/gestalt 6 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends 22, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 38, 115, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 264)
LE Medium outsider (native)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 22, touch 18, flat-footed 20 (+2 armor, +2 Dex, +1 monk, +2 natural, +5 Wis)
hp 45 (6d8+12)
Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +13
Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 50 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +7 (1d8+3)
Ranged or
+1 adaptive composite longbow flurry of blows +15/+15/+10 (1d8+6/×3) or
+1 adaptive composite longbow +11 (1d8+6/×3)
Special Attacks bane (6 rounds/day), flurry of blows, judgment 2/day, zen archery
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th; concentration +3)
At will—deathwatch
Inquisitor Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th; concentration +11)
At will—detect alignment, discern lies (6 rounds/day)
Inquisitor Spells Known (CL 6th; concentration +11)
2nd (4/day)—acute senses[UM] (DC 17), blistering invective[UC] (DC 17), invisibility, knock
1st (6/day)—divine favor, know the enemy[UM], protection from good, true strike
0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, detect poison, guidance, read magic, sift[APG]
Domain Heresy inquisition
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 5
Base Atk +4; CMB +7; CMD 25
Feats Armor Of The Pit[ARG], Coordinated Shot[ACG], Deadly Aim, Enfilading Fire[UC], Improved Monster Lore[UM], Improved Precise Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike, Perfect Strike[APG], Point Blank Master[APG], Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Skills Acrobatics +6 (+20 to jump), Bluff +11, Climb +7, Disguise -1, Heal +9, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (planes) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +14, Sense Motive +17, Spellcraft +7, Stealth +11, Survival +11, Swim +7; Racial Modifiers +2 Disguise, +2 Intimidate
Languages Common, Goblin, Infernal
SQ blessed infiltration, fast movement, high jump, ki archery, ki arrows, ki pool (8 points magic), monster lore +11, slow fall 30 ft., solo tactics, stern gaze +3, track +3
Other Gear +1 adaptive composite longbow, bracers of armor +2, cloak of resistance +1, efficient quiver, headband of inspired wisdom +2, 1,800 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bane (+2 / 2d6, 6 rounds/day) (Su) Make the weapon you are holding a bane weapon.
Blessed Infiltration (5/day) (Ex) Roll twice for Bluff, Diplomacy, or Stealth check and take higher result.
Coordinated Shot If ally threatens but doesn't provide cover gain +1 bon on ranged atks vs. opp.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Detect Alignment (At will) (Sp) Detect chaos, evil, good, or law at will.
Discern Lies (6 rounds/day) (Sp) Discern Lies at will
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Enfilading Fire +2 to ranged att vs. a foe flanked by an ally with this feat.
Fast Movement (+20 ft.) The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3 (Ex) As full-rd action, higher BAB and combo unarmed/monk wep as if two-weapon fighting.
High Jump (+6/+26 with Ki point) (Ex) +6 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Inquisitor Domain (Heresy Inquisition) Deities: Abadar, Asmodeus, Calistria, Desna, Erastil, Gorum, Gozreh, Iomedae, Lamashtu, Nethys, Norgorber, Pharasma, Rovagug, Sarenrae, Shelyn, Torag, Urgathoa, Zon-Kuthon.

Granted Powers: Often it is hard to tell heretics from the f
Judgment (2/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Ki Archery (Su) 1 Ki point: +50' range increment for bows.
Ki Arrows (Su) 1 Ki point: bow deals the same damage as unarmed strike.
Ki Pool (8/day) (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Monster Lore +11 (Ex) +11 to Knowledge checks when identifying the weaknessess of creatures.
Perfect Strike (2d20, 6/day) With certain weapons, roll twice, higher is attack, lower is confirmation roll.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Slow Fall 30 ft. (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Solo Tactics (Ex) Count Teamwork feats as if your allies had the same ones.
Stern Gaze +3 (Ex) +3 to Sense Motive and Intimidate.
Track +3 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Zen Archery (Su) Use WIS instead of DEX for ranged attacks with a bow.

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If he gets a chance to put up divine favor and shield of faith as well as activate Judgement of Justice and bane, and spends a ki point he bonus to hit goes up to +18/+18/+18/+13 and he does 1d8 +14 +2d6 damage per hit. He can get an addition +4 to hit if both the other member of the party are flanking the target. Also since he has improved precise shot he takes absolutely no penalty to hit for firing into melee or cover. This also raises he AC to 25


I never said that not having full BAB is a benefit. What I said was that since they cannot take many feats at first level picking up improved monster lore at first level is a good choice.

The druid/monk is probably not going to be maxing out a lot of skills. That was my whole point. More than likely he is going to be spreading them out fairly evenly.

The zen archer/inquisitor needs fewer high stats than the investigator/fighter. The original poster already said he was interested in an archer. That means if you go investigator/fighter you need a good STR, INT, and DEX, and all character need a decent CON. With a ZEN Archer you need a good WIS, and STR, you only need a 13 DEX for deadly aim. You have the same requirement for CON as any other character. INT should probably be left at 10 and you can dump CHA as much as you want.

Even at first level he still has access to spells, and judgements. He also has access to the monks unarmed attack so can use that for the first few levels until his archery comes on line. That allows him to attack without having to drop the bow when someone is next to him. Which by the way he gets at 3rd level. Since the fighter requires weapon specialization that means the fighter is not picking up point blank master until 5th level.


Atarlost wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Also the inquisitor is the skill guy. He gets bonus to intimidate, sense motive, survival, and all the monster based knowledge skills. If he takes improved monster lore he is actually better at identify monsters than a bard.

For a three person party with no other skilled or int based character 6 isn't skilled enough. Monster Lore is not a large bonus. It's just stat substitution without doing anything about the number of skill points per level.

Improved monster lore is a feat that adds ½ level to your monster lore. This is basically getting the same bonus as a bard for the purpose of identifying monsters. This is in addition to getting both INT and WIS on those rolls. Considering the neither the zen archer or the inquisitor has a +1 BAB at first level this is actually one of the better feats for an inquisitor.

Both of the other characters will be getting 4 skill points per level not 2. As I stated the inquisitor gets a bonus of ½ their level on intimidate, sense motive, and gets the rangers bonus to track. This effectively gives the inquisitor a +4 skill points per level for the cost of a single feat.

The only classes that get more than 6 skill points per level are rogue and ninja neither of which add anything useful to an archer. All INT based classes get 2 skill points per level. As an archer you want the stat that you use determine your chance to hit to be your highest. This means either DEX, or in the case of a zen archer WIS. You also want decent STR for damage o, and of course everyone needs CON. That means more than likely your INT base gestalt character is getting 4 +INT bonus skill points per level. This means the INT based character would likely get 7 or 8 skill points per level.

Don’t count on the druid/monk having a really high perception and survival. He will probably have some point invested in these skills, but he has a lot of other skills he will want. He is going to want some points into acrobatic, climb, fly and swim to take advantage of changing into creatures with other forms of movement. He will also want points into knowledge nature, perception stealth and survival. If he has an animal companion he is also going to need handle animal. And as a spell caster he is going to want at least a few points into spellcraft. That makes about 9 to 10 skills which is going to mean he is spread pretty thin.


The zen archer already get weapon specialization at 6th level. About the only core archery feat they have to actually spend a feat on is deadly aim. Just about all others they get as a bonus feat or the equivalent as a class ability. There are probably one or two more they may want to pick up, but the basics are hard coded into the archetype

The sorcerer/oracle is full arcane caster as well as a full divine caster, but since both are spontaneous casters it is hard to tell what type of spells he will have. While the druid is a full prepared divine caster his spell list is a little light on what most people think of when they talk about divine casters. They do have a surprising number of direct attack spells and battle field control spells. Overall between these two characters they pretty well have most of the magic covered so the party is not really lacking in anything as far as spells go.

The inquisitors spell list is a strange mix of traditional divine magic with a lot of utility spells throw in for good measure. They have the normal bless, cure xx wounds, prayer, but they also get disguise self, true strike, invisibility, knock and a lot of other spells not normally on divine lists. What is really going to come down to is what the original poster wants his character to do. If he wants to boost his archery to obscene levels the inquisitor is the way to go. If he wants to have more options in combat than the magus is probably better.

Also the inquisitor is the skill guy. He gets bonus to intimidate, sense motive, survival, and all the monster based knowledge skills. If he takes improved monster lore he is actually better at identify monsters than a bard.


There is nothing preventing you from taking any bloodline based on race. Usually the magical ancestor for the bloodline is many generations removed. Strangely enough the same is true for races like Aasimar, and Tiefling. You could easily have a tiefling with the empyreal bloodline, or an aasimar with the infernal bloodline.

I think the spell list and class abilities of the inquisitor actually compliment the zen archer better than a sorcerer. An while I don’t have a problem with two of the same class in the game the characters should have enough differences that they don’t duplicate themselves. Besides the inquisitor actually have a better spell list for buffing, and when added to the inquisitors other class abilities they get positively obscene. The biggest limitation on the inquisitor is his lack of combat feats and lower BAB, which limits his number of attacks. The zen archer gets all the feats needed and with flurry of arrows gets a lot of extra attacks.

As to race the Oni-Spawn tiefling actually has the perfect stat combination. +2 to your two most important stats and a penalty to you dump stat. Tieflings can also trade out fiendish sorcery and their spell like ability for soul seer. Being able to use Deathwatch at will is actually pretty decent.


You can easily build a healer who does not use divine magic. The thing is that without magic of some kind this not going to be a viable primary focus for a player character. If you really want to make this work you have a limited number of options. One would be to max out UMD and simply use wands and scrolls. If you do so swap the order of the skill focus and take UMD first instead of heal. You are a rogue so you have the skill points to spend on heal, craft alchemy and other heal related skills, but make sure you save enough skill points so you can do other things. This is probably the closest to your concept.

Another way would be to change your class to something with arcane healing. Alchemists, Bards, Investigators, and Witches all have at least some magical healing. The witch would probably still be looked on with suspicion in Rahadum. Since your concept was a originally a rogue the best choices would be bard or investigator. An archeologist bard is basically a rogue without sneak attack anyways. The investigator is a mix of alchemist and rogue so would also work well. If you go investigator you can use the trait precise treatment to not only get a +1 on heal, but to make it an INT based roll. The Empiricist archetype would allow most skill to be INT based so may work well.

As a side note Adepts are divine casters so would be banned in Rahadum. There was a post on what divine casters would be tolerated in Rahadum and a developer stated that no divine caster is welcome there.


You are focusing way too much on physical combat and ignoring all the other aspects of the game. Yes a fighter is the best at fighting that is why the class is called Fighter.

At low levels stats are actually more important than class. Take an elven wizard with an 18 STR vs a fighter with a 13 STR. At 1st level the elven wizard will actually hit more often and do more damage than the fighter. By 4th level or so the fighter has started to overtake the wizard and is now slightly better with a longsword than the fighter. By 6th level the fighter is significantly better than the wizard at using a longsword. Most classes don’t even start to come into their own until somewhere between 4th to 6th levels. Before this there really is not that much difference between the classes. Heck at 1st level even the rogue is about the same power.

It does not take an inquisitor till 20th level to be able to leave the fighter in the dust. True he needs to go nova and use everything he has to do it, and he will not be able to do it often, but the point is he can do it. At 6th level the inquisitor can get +6 to hit and +7 to damage and deal an extra 3d6 points of damage per hit, this is something even a 6th level fighter will have a hard time matching. This is done simply by using Divine Favor, Judgment of destruction, Bane and Precise Strike all of which are available to a 6th level inquisitor.

Using a bard as an example is probably the worst thing you can do as they are not very focused on combat like a lot of the other ¾ BAB 2/3 spell casting classes. A magus is probably the best and they can easily out damage a fighter once past the early levels


So what if they already have a monk. The Zen Archer /inquisitor is the strongest archer gestalt build there is. About the only one that comes close is the Zen Archer/ Empyreal Sorcerer. Overall the Zen Archer/Inquisitor is stronger because it is hard to beat flurry of bane. Obviously the Druid/Monk is going to be focusing on wild shaping into a melee brute. The Zen Archer changes enough about the class so that there is going to be very little similarity between the characters. Also if the other player is smart he will go for an unchained mon/druid.

The Oni-Spawn Tiefling would work very well for a Zen Archer/Inquisitor. You get +2 STR, +2 WIS, and -2 CHA. You also trade away darkness for Alter Self as a spell like ability. This gives you the ability to shift into a medium race for an additional +2 STR.


Ray of enfeeblement is actually one of the better 1st level spells for a high level caster. At 10th level it becomes 1d6+5 points of STR damage. You are guaranteed that the target will lose at least 3 STR maybe as much as 5 even if you make the save. Bonuses are based on even numbers that usually works out to a -2 to a -3 penalty if the save is made. Also since two handed weapons get extra damage from STR the penalty to damage ends up even higher. Hitting a fully armored foe with a ranged touch attack is so easy it does not really matter.

At higher level most low level spells have almost no affect; this is not the case with ray of enfeeblement. If the target for some reason fails the save they lose on the average 8 STR that is enough to cripple almost any martial class. Basically the spell causes a -2 to -4 chance to hit and reduces the damage by -3 to -6. Not bad for a first level spell.

When you are 10th level almost anything you encounter is going to be able to have a reasonable chance of making the save vs a 1st level spell. Charm person may have the potential to do more, but realistically it is actually pretty useless vs level appropriate targets.


If you want a classless system Pathfinder is the wrong system for you. Hero system or other point based systems are probably what you are looking for. The downside for most of them is they require a lot more system mastery than Pathfinder.


No you both have to have the trait for it to function correctly. Technically you could share his space, but since he cannot share your space it does not work.


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Favored Enemy simply means you are have taken the time to study a particular type of foe. Quite often it is due to hatred or dislike of the foe, but that does not have to be the case. If your character is a sheriff or bounty hunter than taking your own race as a favored enemy makes perfect sense. Rangers make very good cops.


storoff wrote:
So i had a recent disagreement with a gm in a home game does a empyrial lord count as the deity for a paladin?

In a home game an Empyreal Lord counts as a deity as long as the GM agrees. See rule Zero.

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