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Mysterious Stranger's page

2,171 posts. No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist.


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Since you are a sorcerer you could also go for mythic eschew materials. There are still limits to how much you can ignore but unless you are animating dead during combat that should not be that big of a deal. If you are creating a horde of undead simply cast the spell multiple times and only animate the amount of HD that is within the limits.

You get only what the spell list in the individual elemental section and its natural attacks. Since it does not list Tremor Sense you don’t get it.

Since you mentioned that he is a high level servant to an officer that will limit the number of suspects. Have each suspect to learn a different piece of information. Then simply track which piece of information is used. The information needs to be real and only available to that one servant. Make sure the information is not something that the servant would normally share with anyone else.

If you have a limited number of suspects then use enchantment spells instead of divination spells to find him. A Geas for him to give a specific object only to his true master, and only to his true master would work.

Does it say it modifies? Because if it says it modifies the ability, you do not get both. This is quite common where an archetype is reducing an ability to give another ability a boost. For example many paladin archetypes modify smite evil to give less smites, but give a stronger ability for another power.

Aasimar don’t have racial HD so a 3rd level Aasimar paladin has an aura of 3. You don’t count levels twice.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
JiCi wrote:
How? Detect Evil isn't a sure-fire way to detect everything wrong with a person

True. But it doesn't need to be to ruin that plot. At-will Detect Evil is something that they should be using on all suspects, and non-Evil people should not be assumed innocent, but it should make them inclined to ask them to come peacefully. And if they have a compelling argument why they were framed, it should strongly incline a Paladin or Good-aligned Inquisitor to listen to it.

In short, if nobody's Evil and the PCs are willing to talk, it seems likely so would any Good Aligned character. Which sorta short-circuits the idea of a fight.

JiCi wrote:
and while Discern Lies helps in investigations, it often doesn't "count" as a valid source when compared at actually saying the truth. Spells are almost as valid as the lie detector in court: it works, but not reliable.

Off-Topic: Actually, real-world 'lie detectors' don't work at all. They detect whether people are nervous...and that's about it.

On Topic: That's actually not true for an investigator, because the caster can tell whether they made the Save. It's sorta true in court, but only inasmuch as the person who cast it could be lying. For the investigator? It's absolute proof if they're willing to flub the save or you try it enough times.

And an Inquisitor has enough separate (1 round) tries with Detect Lies that they can ask the same question each time and be absolutely certain after one or two days uses. Nobody can reasonably make 10 or 20 saves in a row. Which means they'll fail at least once, and if they fail once you know they failed and know whether they lied.

That's enough to screw that plot right up.

You do realize that clerics and warpriests both have these spells on their list? Even Paladins get discern lies on their list. They all also have zone of truth as well. Since all the classes except the inquisitor are also prepared divine casters they all have access to these spells if needed.

Detect Evil also does not work on low level characters unless they have the aura class feature. And in that case a neutral character worshiping an evil deity will actually detect as evil when they are not actually evil.

Clerics are more magic focused and less martial so while they may be a more powerful class their combat abilities is the worst of the classes you mentioned. The inquisitor is more of a divine secret agent than a warrior. They can nova and serious damage, but lack staying power for a warrior. That pretty much leaves the paladin or warpriest.

Paladins have several advantages first of all they are a full BAB class. Smite evil allows them to out damage just about anything when attacking an evil target. Their damage vs a non-evil target is decent, but most other martial classes will probably do better. But paladins have another major advantage over other martial characters and that is they have significantly better defenses than just about anything in the game. Divine grace gives them the best saves in the game. Reflex is their weak save and they often can match many classes that get it as a good save. They also get several immunities and about the only good combat healing in the game. Swift action healing gives them a huge advantage in combat and it works like most of the paladins other defenses it works vs enemies of any alignment.

Warpriests have less combat ability than a paladin due to being a ¾ BAB class with a d8 hit dice, but have better spells. The Campion of the Fait archetype gives you a lot of the same abilities of a paladin but not all of them and to use smite evil you have to burn two uses of Fervor. You do get some bonus feats and can also pick up fighter only feats which will help, but overall the paladin is probably the stronger warrior.

I think either the paladin or the warpriest is going to be your best choice. If you want to focus more on the fighting side of things and be the last character to go down the paladin is probably your best bet. If you want more magic power and are willing to sacrifice some combat ability then the warpriest is your best bet.

FangDragon wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
FangDragon wrote:

Am I the only one who finds picking a fight over weapon choice rather petty? There must be more to it than that surely!

Put it this way, is adherence to game canon more important than an IRL friendship? ...

No one on this thread other than the original poster has made a big deal over the use of a weapon. What everyone does think is a big deal is the fact that the cleric is pretty much ignoring his deities teachings and pretty much doing the opposite.

The rules of the game clearly state that when a cleric violates the code of conduct expected by the deity they become an Ex-Cleric. This is no different than a paladin falling, or a wizard wanting to cast spells in full plate armor without any chance of arcane spell failure.

The idea that the goddess of redemption would withhold spells over somebody using a different weapon, seems rather extreme to me. Of course if there was more to it than that, e.g. it was part of a pattern of disrespectful behavior, that would be different.

You are completely misunderstanding what I am and most of the other posters are saying. To make it clear the cleric can use any weapon he wants without having any problems with Sarenrae.

The real problem is that the player is completely ignoring just about everything Sarenrae stands for. The original poster has outright stated the cleric does not care about the things Sarenrae stands for. Then goes on to give the example of killing someone and bringing them back from the dead, only to kill them again after questioning the person. He also mentioned the character is ok with torturing prisoners for information. He also says that the way the cleric is being played is evil. Since I don’t have the full information I have given the clerics player the benefit of the doubt on the alignment issue, but that does not change the fact that the player is not living up to the standards and code of his deity.

FangDragon wrote:

Am I the only one who finds picking a fight over weapon choice rather petty? There must be more to it than that surely!

Put it this way, is adherence to game canon more important than an IRL friendship? ...

No one on this thread other than the original poster has made a big deal over the use of a weapon. What everyone does think is a big deal is the fact that the cleric is pretty much ignoring his deities teachings and pretty much doing the opposite.

The rules of the game clearly state that when a cleric violates the code of conduct expected by the deity they become an Ex-Cleric. This is no different than a paladin falling, or a wizard wanting to cast spells in full plate armor without any chance of arcane spell failure.

nicholas storm wrote:
Warpriest. If you consider alchemy as spellcasting, then alchemist and investigator.

Warpriest is a divine caster not an arcane caster.

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When I am talking about attitude and aptitude it more than just caring about people it is a whole world view. Think of it as the difference between and engineer and an artist. Both can create complex drawings but go about it in totally ways. The engineer is more concerned with angles and measurements, while the artist is more concerned with how the picture looks. The engineer is basically recreating the object on paper, where the artist is more concerned with capturing the look and often what emotional response it provokes.

Applying this to magic gets us two very different approaches to magic. The wizard is like the engineer and needs a deeper understanding of how things work to cast his spells. This is why intelligence is the wizard’s main casting stat. For him to cast the spell he may need to tap into specific types and amounts of energy from different planes or sources. The higher the level of the spell the more complex the requirements are. He is the one in control of all the energies with very limited help from outside sources.

The cleric on the other hand is more like the artist. He opens himself up to his deity and uses raw will power to handle the flow of energy from the deity. He also has a connection to his deity that allows him to more easily tap into certain energies than the wizard. He takes shortcuts and does not really need to understand how the spell works. The actual power of the spell is coming from the deities power not that of the cleric. Without the deities power the cleric is not able to cast the simplest of spells. This is also why clerics whose deity has died lose all class abilities.

The reason wizards cannot heal as easily as a cleric is probably because healing is one of the more difficult types of magic. The cleric has the advantage that his deity is the one doing the healing not himself. This is also the reason that the cleric has trouble doing other kinds of magic that wizard excels at. In that case the deity is not really all that interested in allowing the cleric to do that. That would also explain why certain clerics can cast spells that other clerics normally don’t cast. When deity makes a domain available to his clerics those spells are now on their list.

Also keep in mind that not all divine classes are good at healing. Druids and rangers for example are actually not that good at healing.

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Only the Forgotten Realms setting has the weave. Even in 3.0 none of the rule books even mention it so anything about the weave is strictly a Forgotten Realms issue. The default setting for Pathfinder is as Anguish mentioned Golarion which has an entirely different approach to magic. There are also a lot of other campaigns including many homebrew campaigns that have nothing to do with the Forgotten Realms.

The reason why various forms of magic are better at certain things is probably due more to the mental attitudes and aptitudes of the casters. Clerics are better at healing because they are more concerned with others than wizards and sorcerers. Clerics spend a lot of time supporting and dealing with the problems of their deity’s worshipers. Wizards on the other hand are more interested in the fundamental rules of the universe and don’t really pay that much attention to people. Bards are kind of jack of all trades and master on none so they get a little bit of everything.

Another thing to consider is that prepared divine casters have access to their entire spell list when they are capable of using a particular level. It requires very little effort on their part; they simply ask for something and get it. In a way they are not really doing anything they are merely acting as a channel for their deity.

Wizards on the other hand require a lot more effort. They have to learn each spell and each spell is completely separate from all others. Just because you know summon monster I, does not mean you know any other spells in that chain. If you want to learn to summon monster II you need to learn a whole different spell and record it in your spell book.

Sorcerers magic is inborn so they don’t learn anything they simple figure out how to tap powers they have always had. The way I see it a sorcerers spells are pretty much set when he is born. They really don’t choose what spells they know they always had those spells, but they may not have had the power or control needed to actually cast them. This is not an actual game rule but the way I personally view sorcerers. This is strictly fluff not anything to do with game mechanics.

Bearserk wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
The big problem is the deity he supposedly worships focuses on mercy and redemption. Any class drawing power from a deity has to at least pay lip service to their deity’s beliefs and codes. All divine classes including inquisitors and warpriests have a section on Ex-<class name>.

Oracles, Rangers and Shamans would disagree!


Oracles draw power from their mysteries which often include multiple gods with different alignments. The flame mystery for examples lists both Sarenrae, and Asmodeous. Rangers like druids draw power from nature. Shamans source of power are spirts not a deity. While specific campaigns settings and archetypes may alter this the rules do state that Clerics, Inquisitors and Warpriests lose power if they fail to uphold their deity’s code and ideals.

So instead of all divine classes having a Ex-<class name> section, I should have said any class drawing power from a deity.

The big problem is the deity he supposedly worships focuses on mercy and redemption. Any class drawing power from a deity has to at least pay lip service to their deity’s beliefs and codes. All divine classes including inquisitors and warpriests have a section on Ex-<class name>. If he were a worshiper of Torag much of what he wants to do would be not only accepted but expected. Some of what the original poster said does border on evil, but without having more details and hearing from both sides I am inclined to grant the cleric the benefit of the doubt. He simply chose the wrong deity.

It sounds like he chose at least the wrong deity. If the only reason he chose Sarenrae is for the domains then he really should find another deity. Considering he seems more focused on being a dwarf than a cleric dwarven deity would make more since. Torag is a pretty harsh deity and looking at his paladins’ code seems to be the best fit. I realize he is not playing a paladin, but the paladins code does give a good idea or what a deity expects out of his followers.

• My word is my bond. When I give my word formally, I defend my oath to my death. Traps lie in idle banter or thoughtless talk, and so I watch my tongue.

• I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright, but my allegiance is to my people. I will do what is necessary to serve them, including misleading others.

• I respect the forge, and never sully it with halfhearted work. My creations reflect the depth of my faith, and I will not allow flaws save in direst need.

• Against my people's enemies I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except to extract information. I will defeat them, and I will scatter their families. Yet even in the struggle against our enemies, I will act in a way that brings honor to Torag.

If he wants the healing domain than simply have him take the Seperatist Archetype and choose healing as his second domain. This will mean he gets his second domain power at 8th level when everyone else gets it but since it is not a limited use power that is the only affect.

The way he is playing his character he is likely to end up an Ex-Cleric of Sarenrae.

In addition to not having a front, back or discernable anatomy swarms also have one other thing that may affect your ability to use sneak attack.

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

So if you are using a weapon to sneak attack it seems like this would not work. If you are somehow using an area of effect attack (Possibly with an arcane trickster) then you probably do get sneak attack.

A dwarf ranger with favored enemy giants would seem the obvious answer. Probably most people figure you would be too close to the hunter, but rangers have plenty of archetypes and are versatile enough that you could build a character that is nothing like the hunter.

Ragathiel is the god of vengeance and duty so it seems likely you would be going after those that abuse their authority. Kind of like a divine internal affairs agent. If a knight or noble uses his positon to take advantage of those not able to defend themselves you are the one to take them down. Your job is to uncover the people who use their positon to abuse the helpless. You are always suspicious of everyone and trust no one. Because you often go after people with good public reputations you are not well liked by those in power.

A high level cleric can easily bring a character back from the dead. But there is nothing that says they will do this. The best way to handle this is to make it into a role playing challenge. Once you have located a high enough cleric you still have to convince him that the person is worthy of being brought back to life. If the dead character did not live up to the ideas of the cleric’s deity, the cleric will probably not be willing to cast the spell regardless of being paid.

Another factor that might make a cleric unwilling to cast the spell is if the dead character is of a different religion. Considering that after a character dies his soul ultimately goes to the outer plane of his deity for its reward. This could easily mean that casting raise dead on a member of another faith is considered poaching of souls. Considering the player in question is a cleric of would probably mean it has to be a cleric of his own religion.

Instead of charging for the casting of the spell make the party agrees to a service for the religion. This would be a good reason for a short side adventure. After the party agrees then have the spells cast to raise the cleric so he can go along with the rest of the party. If you really want to penalize the cleric then make him an ex-cleric until the quest is completed.

Since the spell specifies the water is drinkable that would mean that it would not be boiling or frozen. Other than stating that the water must be a temperature suitable for drinking I would allow the caster to decide the exact temperature.

Your best bet is to use it for things it would willingly do. Don’t use it against good or even neutral foes save it for dealing with evil. Always make sure that what you send it up against is significantly more evil than yourself.

Leverage its use so people owe you for helping them. Having someone owe you a favor because you sent your pet Planetar to aid them is always good. Once the favor is owed you can use it as you need. This is a really good way to get good characters on your side.

With stats like that you can build just about anything you want. Play an Oread with the following stats STR 20, WIS 19, DEX 16, CON 15, INT 14, CHA 11. Bump your WIS up to 20 at 4th level and you will be fine. Usually the reason druids have to focus on combat or spells is because in a normal point buy you simply do not have the needed stats, this is not the case with those stats.

Since he is a oracle of nature he has access to speak with plants and grove of respite. Speak with plants last 1 min per level so lasts for 11 min per casting. If he has a way to move fast enough that should significantly increase his chances of finding her. Grove of respite says it conjures a grove of trees surrounding a shallow spring. That may be enough to save her tree.

War Priests are better when you are fighting long battles against multiple different types of creatures. Inquisitors are better at going nova vs specific creatures. The big advantage the War Priest has over the Inquisitor in combat is they can get their spells of much faster while still attacking, and that they can last longer because of being able to use swift action healing on themselves. The inquisitor on the other hand has a lot limited use abilities that all stack together to allow him to exceed what the War Priest can do. The problem is unless he has advance warning It may take him a few rounds to get up to speed. The Inquisitor also faces the problem that once he runs out of his special abilities he is actually a lot weaker than the War Priest.

As Deadmanwalking said Inquisitors have much better noncombat abilities. Their spell list contains more utility spells and includes many spells that divine casters usually don’t get.

I would see how the cleric is planning on building his character. If he is going to go for a more martial build than I think that the War Priest is probably going to be redundant.

One way would be to randomly reverse the rolls. Let the player roll all rolls and have them give you the actual result of the die and their relevant modifier separately. The behind your screen roll another die and if it comes up odd than use the roll the player gave. If it comes up even reverse the roll. So if the player rolls a 18 on a d20 and you roll even than the player actually rolled 2 instead of 18. Then adjust the roll based on the players modifier. This is a lot of extra work for you but it keeps the player involved and they never know if the rolled well or poorly. Let them know in advance you are doing this so they don’t get upset.

If this were a normal Magus than Chill Touch is a good first level spell. This is an Eldritch Scion which means he is only going to have 6 first level spells known period. Tying up 1/6 of your 1st level spells with a situational spell that does not scale up is not a good tactic. They can replaces spells starting at 5th level so maybe taking Chill Touch would not really be all that bad as long as you replace it when you can.

Magic Missile is probably the single best 1st level Magus spell for dealing with undead. While Chill touch does cause undead to flee it goes up against their best save and at higher level the low DC of the spell is going to make it nearly useless vs anything level appropriate. Because you are only get a limited number of spells known you really do not want to waste a spell slot that will not be useful as you level up. Magic Missile is a force effect and as such deals full damage to incorporeal creatures. Because you get more missiles as you level up the damage scales up to remain useful. It is also the only regular force spell on the magus list before 3rd level.

For roleplaying you could be the one who carries everybody’s gear. Get the biggest bag of holding you can afford and tell the other party members out of game you are willing to carry their gear. From a roleplaying stand point you steal it, but the party knows it so when they want to use their gear they simply ask you for it. You are only interested in cool stuff (Things they don’t need to always have), not boring stuff (Things they do need to have). Kleptomania is a type of insanity so you don’t really need to have a logical reason why something is boring, or interesting.

I would go for the Drow Noble Archeologist Bard. Since you are going solo you want a class that does is more self-reliant. The archeologist’s class abilities focus strictly on himself. Many of the Arcane Duelist, and Inquisitor class ability work best with other people around. Bardic Knowledge is going to be more useful than Monster lore because you don’t have other party members to cover knowledge skills.

Put the 18 in DEX and go for a DEX to damage build. Make sure to take lingering performance for your next feat. Take Fate’s Favored as one of your traits and make sure Heroism is one of your second level spells. Pick up lingering performance as your next feat (your first two will be needed for the DEX to damage).

Considering that a dragon’s bite damage does more damage than a similarly sized creature, I don’t think dragons have small heads. Looking at the illustration on the cover of the core rule book also does not look like the dragon has a small head. It actually looks larger than normal.

What class are you playing? For the most part spending a feat slot is preferable to dipping into a class that gets it as a bonus feat. Unless your class does not have many class features you are probably better off sticking with your class. The only classes that are not really hurt by dipping are the fighter and rouge. Since the fighter only real class feature are bonus feats I assume you are not playing a fighter. Any caster especially a full caster is better off staying single class. About the only exception would be if you are getting more than a single feat for the dip. I could see dipping a single level of fighter to get better armor and weapon proficiencies, but no just a single bonus feat.

There are of course exceptions.

While the head of a dragon may not be abnormally large, neither is it abnormally small. If the skull of a lion is large enough to make a helmet than making one from a dragon’s skull should not be a problem. I think that a huge skull would actually be too large to make a medium sized helmet. An elephant is a huge animal and its skull would be way too big for a medium helmet.

A campaign with only two characters is going to have two main problems. The first is going to be in combat where the lack of numbers reduces their action economy. The second is going to be out of combat diversity and utility. Neither of these problems are unsurmountable, but should be recognized and dealt with.

Since the action economy problem is mainly about having enough creatures on their side the solution is to make sure they have extra creatures available to them. Classes that have pets are one way to solve the problem. Just make sure that the pets are full pets not limited. A druid’s animal companion is fine, but a ranger is probably too weak. If the feat boon companion is used a rangers pet would be ok.

The second way to improve the action economy is if the characters have the ability to summon creatures to aid them in combat. Most full casting classes have some sort of summoning spell on their spell list. Both druids and hunters are always able to summon creatures. The druid can convert any spell to a summon nature’s ally, and the hunter always has those spells on his list of known spells. While the summon natures ally line is probably weaker than the summon monster line it still gets the job done.

As to the diversity and utility problems this is just a matter of choosing the right classes. Avoid overly specialized classes in favor of more rounded classes. Wizards are very powerful, but are week on defense, and often require a few rounds to get going. In a normal party where the other players are buying them time this is not a problem. Fighters are great at combat, but other than that don’t really do much. A magus or ranger would probably be better in the smaller party. Any class that is not INT based should probably have at least 4 skill points per level. Magic is a big part of the game so both characters should have at least some magical ability.

The last thing that will help is if the characters are optimized for the campaign you are running. If the campaign is focusing on certain types of monsters the characters can be built for it which will reduce the imbalance of having fewer characters. A ranger with maxed out favored enemy undead will be a lot more useful in a undead heavy campaign than in a normal campaign.

A half orc inquisitor with improved monster lore, and taking the half orc favored class bonus gets +1 bonus per level to knowledges to identify monsters. This is in addition to adding both INT and WIS to the total. They also get 6+ INT bonus skill points per level. This is only to identify monsters but the bonus is huge.

Merciful spell does not use a higher level spell slot. GM fiat is probably the best way to go about it. If you want an explanation simply make the item an artifact. Artifacts are pretty much for when a GM wants to do something unique but wants to keep control of it. Make the artifact the dueling chamber itself. This would also allow you to justify that any magic cast does not reach past the chamber.

The modifications are done last. If you look at the werewolf example in the bestiary the human fighter has a CON of 14, wolves have a CON of 15. The hybrid form has a CON of 17.

You do not gain the size bonus adjustments for two reasons. First you only gain what the templates states and it does not mention any adjustments for size difference. Second you are already using the better of the two stats anyways so this is kind of factored in already.

For spell casters you want have the same casting stat for both classes. The summoner is a CHA based class and both the druid and hunter are based on WIS. Both of those classes also need decent physical stats so mixing them with a summoner is going to be difficult. The ranger not only increases your combat ability, but gives you decent skills.

Keep the sorcerer/antipaladin but maybe go for a draconic sorcerer and then go antipaladin/dragon disciple. A demon spawns Tiefling works well for this.

The swashbuckler has almost no synergy with an inquisitor. A better combination would be unchained monk/inquisitor. Flurry of bane is too good to pass up.

For Ear’s other character go swashbuckler/Archeologist bard. Use spells like heroism and other buff spells to boost your skills and combat through the roof.

If you are playing an evil character don’t play the paladin. The only thing I can think is that you are playing a antipaladin.

Overall the Druid/Ranger is going to be more powerful. Both the Summoner/Nightblade are 2/3 casters with medium BAB that can wear light armor, and have bad fortitude saves. You do get a lot of special abilities but both your magic and combat is weaker than the Druid/Ranger.

The other thing to consider is both the druid and ranger are prepared divine spell casters. This gives you access to every spell on both lists as soon as you are able to cast them. Many of the spells on their lists are very situational which means when they are useful they tend to be stronger in that situation. The druid also gains higher level spells earlier than either the summoner or nightblade.

The fighter/rogue is going to be the weak character. The low will saves makes him a lot weaker than the other party members. His complete lack of magic is also going to make him much less powerful than the rest of the party. Going with unchained rogue and using an elven curved blade will allow him to get 1.5 DEX bonus to damage.

The Cleric/Monk should be fine, though I would suggest going unchained monk to get full BAB and extra HP. The cleric puts his Will save back to where it should be.

Toth was primarily a guide and protector. He seemed to have decent wilderness skills. The Witchgaurd archetype seems to fit. If I remember correctly he also used a quarterstaff as his weapon. The ranger combat style would allow for him to use two weapon fighting with a quarter staff without having to have a high DEX. STR was obviously his primary stat. While the ranger’s spells don’t exactly fit he did come from a race noted for its use of magic. It is not a perfect fit, but seems reasonable close.

For the magic that does not quite fit like the shape changing you have a couple of way to cover this. As I suggested all the disciples are mythic characters. A couple of mythic path abilities and feats will cover much of their abilities. You could also create a custom wizard archetype. Swap out the wizards school powers for wild shape. Also as far as I know all the disciples of Aldur have an amulet. Since Ce’Nedra’s amulet is magic it would make sense that the other are also magic. Use this as their wizard’s arcane bond. This would allow them to enchant it as a magic item. Since they are all also mythic it could even be a legendary item for even more power.

Yes and all he would get would be the benefit of protection from evil. It would not keep out summoned creatures because to do that the spell would have to affect them. When you use Fervor to cast a spell you can only affect yourself even if the spell normally affects others. This pretty much means you can’t cast anything but self-buff spells using it.

The way I see it all the disciples of Aldur are Mythic characters following the Archmage path. They all have Wild Arcana to allow them to cast any spell they need. They all also took the path ability Perfect Preparation. Wizard is probably the class that best fits them, although arguments could be made for Arcanist.

Belgarion is a fighter2/ Wizard8/Eldritch Knight 10. His magic is just too powerful for a Magus.

Silk is a ninja. Some of his abilities like the changing of his face could be custom ki abilities

Durnic was an expert in the first series, but retrained the levels to wizard in the second series

Barak is a Barbarian

Hettar is a ranger

Mandorallen is a cavalier

Lelldorin is a fighter

Sadi and Velvet are probably unchained rogues.

Ce’Nedra is an Aristocrat with a few levels of druid.

Relg could be an inquisitor

Toth is probably a ranger.

The ABP is actually perfect for a monk. See if your GM will allow you to use this even if the other characters are not. If he does you may want to think about taking a vow of poverty for the extra ki.

The way I see a lawful character is they live their lives by a set of rules based on an external source. This can be something like the paladins code, or often the laws of your own land. Generally you do obey the local laws unless it conflicts with the laws that govern you. This is particularly true when you are playing a divine caster. A paladin is going to obey the laws of his deity before any mortal law. The person who lives by his own personal code is not really lawful, but more than likely is neutral at best, and possibly even chaotic.

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What I am looking at is the fact that a lot of things that limit and inconvenience normal characters no longer have any effect on the lich. AS a GM those are part of my bag of tricks that allow me to make the adventure interesting. High level adventures are difficult enough to run without having a character that can ignore many of the things that other players need to deal with. If everyone in the group were to have a similar template that changes things dramatically. I could see a campaign where the players are all undead, but where one character has a template and the other do never ends well.

I speak form experience on this. I have played a character in a game like this, and my character was the one with the template and he completely overpowered the rest of the group. The campaign ended because the other players were tired of playing spear carrier. I have also been in other campaigns where this has been done and every time it starts out cool, but ends badly.

Tacticslion wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Basically once the wizard becomes a lich he really does not need the rest of the party.

Let me stop you right here.

This can be rephrased as the following:

"Basically, once the wizard becomes eleventh level, he really does not need the rest of the party."

Lichdom is one way of doing that. But it's not a very good way. Most of the best ways are available in Core.

A lich can still be easily overwhelmed - action economy kills, badly, no matter who you are. Lichdom isn't the "best" (as in most powerful) thing to do with all that wealth or cost. If you've paid the price of taking the Craft Wondrous Item feat, are charging the uncharted territory of "items players normally can't make" (but are rules legal) and are worried about power... grant the other PCs ~ 240k worth of "decent but not ludicrous" chachkes.

If I wanted immortality, there are lots of easier ways. Faster and cheaper, too.

Lichdom isn't the worst thing that could happen to a person, but two more levels of wizard are far and away superior.

EDIT: a large chunk of that sentence vanished for some reason. I put it back.

You seem to be missing the whole point of what I am saying. What I am saying is that adding any template to a single member of the party is a bad idea. This applies equally to other classless and other templates. Templates change the nature of the game and unless all the characters are at least similarly changed it creates an imbalance. This is not necessarily about power, but rather how the game plays out.

I have to disagree with you that a 11th level wizard does not need the rest of the party. A wizard alone against a group of monster is at a severe disadvantage. As you said yourself the action economy makes it difficult for a single character to deal with moderately large groups. If a lich can be overwhelmed so can the ordinary wizard.

Actually an Investigator may be what you are looking for. An Empiricist is about as far from a mad scientist as you can get.

Yes there are ways to affect a lich with magic that he is normally immune to. But if every caster has those feats the player is going to be calling foul, and rightfully so. If the GM has to rewrite everything to deal with your character than the balance of the campaign has already been thrown off. This is one of the reasons I recommended not using templates. Often time the GM has two choices. The first is to allow the player an unfair advantage over the rest of the party. The second is to rewrite practically everything to counter your special abilities. In either case the balance of the party is throw off.

I am not saying that there are not ways to deal with a lich. What I am saying is that if the rest of the party does not have the same, or at least similar abilities it creates an unbalance in the game. If the GM is running a high powered campaign where all the characters are equally powerful that is fine. What is not fine is when one character has that significant of an advantage. Mixing templated characters in a normal campaign is going to lead to a huge imbalance.

Being able to ignore any spell that requires fortitude save (which is the wizard’s weak save) is a lot more useful than you think. They are also immune to all mind affecting spells (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns and phantasms). Then factor in complete immunity to two out of the four elemental damage types (cold and electricity). Between these ability the lich is outright immune to a good majority of the spells, and those that do affect him tend to target will save which is his strongest save.

The lich also has an unlimited use touch attack that deals negative energy. This means he can heal himself up to full in almost no time without have to use any spells or abilities. Since he is immunity ability damage HP damage is really the only thing he has to worry about. So the lich is always at full strength when you fight him.

Most of the Lich’s defenses directly shore up the weaknesses of the wizard. This means that he is now free to devote those resources that he used to have to use to survive to other purposes. As a GM run monster that is not all that bad, but as a player character it creates an imbalance in the party. Basically once the wizard becomes a lich he really does not need the rest of the party.

Improved Initiative is a great feat for a spell caster. Being able to go first is very important to an arcane spell caster. Low level casters may need it to bring up their defenses. At higher level being able to get your spell off can allow you to single handedly shut down the encounter. Since this is for society play you are only getting one bloodline feat anyways so all you need is one good one.

If you did go higher than 12th level you still have a couple of good feats. Dodge may be a boring feat, but an extra +1 AC (especially to touch AC) is always useful. Quicken spell is also a very useful feat, as a sorcerer you can actually make better use of metamagic feats than a wizard. Being able to apply the feat on the fly is very useful. With Quicken Spell you don’t even suffer the drawback of a sorcerer using metamagic.

I would advise against allowing any templates for player characters. The CR adjustment is to give you an idea of how powerful the creature will be for purpose of XP when defeated. Many of the abilities you get from a template have long range implications that really don’t affect how powerful the creature is in combat, but give significant advantages to a player character compared to the other players. The Lich’s Phylactery is a perfect example of this. The only way I would allow a character to use a template is if all characters are using the same template.

Try this as an experiment write up two versions of the character. One of the versions is as a lich; the other is two levels higher. Than run a combat against both versions and see which one is more difficult. You’re going to find the lich version is a hell of a lot tougher than the one two levels higher. Than factor in the fact that even if the party was able to defeat the lich they did not really kill it. The lich’s Phylactery is hidden safely away from where you fought him so he simply reforms in 1d10 days. Do you really want to give this kind of power to one of your players?

I have not seen Horror Adventures, but the fact that if you become a lich the GM is supposed to take away your character shows at some point it becomes unbalanced.

Vestigial Arm specifically states it does not give you any extra attacks, but can be used to wield a weapon. That means get the same number of attacks as someone with only two arms. You can use the dagger in the third arm as part of the attack, but it does not do anything that a person with two arms cannot do.

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