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Another alternative is to go with a DEX based Slayer and use slashing grace and two weapon fighting. Dip one level in swashbuckler to pick up swashbucklers finesse. Take the next 6 levels in slayer using your favored class bonus to pick up an extra slayer talent. Also use ranger combat style to get two weapon fighting, and improved two weapon fighting. By 10th level you will be +19/+14/+19/+14 with studied target and doing 1d8+13 damage and if you are able to sneak attack you will be doing an extra 3d6 damage per hit. This assumes that you get a +4 belt of dexterity and have at least a +1 weapon in each hand.


You may want to look at the slayer from the ACG instead a multiclass rogue/ranger. It gives you everything you need without having to multiclass and more. Focus on STR instead of DEX and use the slayer talents to get two weapon fighting. If you go to 6th level Slayer you can even pickup improved two weapon fighting.


Fast Stealth is always useful. Being able to move a full speed when using stealth allows is very useful for an assassin. If you can’t get to them you can’t kill them.

Another idea is to take Terrain Mastery so you can pick up Slayers Camouflage at 10th.


I use the point buy system out of the book, but use a 25pt buy. I know the standard is supposed to be 15 and PFS uses 20 but I like to be able to throw greater challenges at my players. If a player wants to dump one or more stats that is ok, but I make sure they realize I will be using your low stats against you.

For example if you dump CHA people are going to react negatively towards you even if you have a good diplomacy. I consider skills to be something that is actively used, not a passive bonus. I often use straight stat checks for some situations including initial attitude. If you are doing a good job of roleplaying the dump stat I usually don’t need to do much, but if you are ignoring it I will do take appropriate adjustments. The character with a low CHA and good diplomacy is like a greasy used car salesman who can sell you anything, but you still would not want as your buddy.


This is assuming that he has Divine Favor running and is using the Sacred Healing Judgment. You literly have to kill him to stop him. In addition to the fast healing he can also cast cure light wounds on himself to make him even more difficult to take down.

He dumped CHA completely but still has every social skill at +6 and only had to put one point into it to get it. He has a +8 to identify monsters and an insane intimidate. The reason I took Blistering Invective was to be able to demoralize all opponents within 30’ of him.

Half-orc inquisitor of Irori 4 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 38)
LN Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +8
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 31 (4d8+8)
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +6
Defensive Abilities ferocity, orc ferocity
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 falchion +11 (2d4+9/18-20)
Ranged mwk composite longbow +9 (1d8+6/×3)
Special Attacks judgment 2/day
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 4th; concentration +2)
At will—detect alignment
Inquisitor Spells Known (CL 4th; concentration +6):
2nd (2/day)—blistering invective{super}UC{/super} (DC 14), invisibility
1st (4/day)—cure light wounds, divine favor, expeditious retreat, true strike
0 (at will)—detect magic, disrupt undead, guidance, light, sift{super}APG{/super}, stabilize
Domain Conversion Inquisition
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 7
Base Atk +3; CMB +7; CMD 19
Feats Ferocious Resolve[ARG], Intimidating Prowess, Precise Strike[APG]
Traits armor expert, wisdom in the flesh
Skills Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Disguise +6, Intimidate +19, Knowledge (arcana) +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (nature) +4, Knowledge (planes) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Perception +8, Ride +4, Sense Motive +11, Spellcraft +4, Stealth +4, Survival +6, Swim +6; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate
Languages Common, Orc
SQ monster lore +4, orc blood, weapon familiarity, solo tactics, stern gaze +2, track +2
Other Gear +1 agile breastplate, +1 falchion, mwk composite longbow, 1,275 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Detect Alignment (At will) (Sp) Detect chaos, evil, good, or law at will.
Ferocity (Ex) Fight without penalty even while disabled or dying.
Inquisitor Domain (Conversion Inquisition) Deities: Any deity.

Granted Powers: You are a powerful persuader. A honeyed tongue empowered by divine argumentation sways the indifferent and adversarial to your side.
Judgment (2/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Monster Lore +4 (Ex) +4 to Knowledge checks when identifying the weaknessess of creatures.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) If brought below 0 Hp, can act as though disabled for 1 rd.
Precise Strike +1d6 precision damage for melee attacks if you and an ally with this feat flank the same target.
Solo Tactics (Ex) Count Teamwork feats as if your allies had the same ones.
Track +2 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Wisdom in the Flesh (Disguise) Disguise becomes a Wisdom-based, class skill.


The inquisitor is a very strong class. What people are saying is that it is not the strongest in any one thing. The inquisitor is a close second in almost every category. He is not the strongest at melee damage, but comes close, he is not the strongest spell caster, but is not that much below the top casters. The same is true with almost everything else.

Having no weakness also makes for a very strong character. A fighter can be shut down with a spell targeting will save, a wizard can be shut down by preventing him from casting, but it is almost impossible to shut down an inquisitor. Even when he is out of spells and other resources he can still fall back on the fact he is a ¾ BAB class that can use decent armor.

Another thing that makes the inquisitor powerful is that most, if not all his abilities stack. Judgments are a sacred bonus, he can get both moral and luck bonuses from spells. This allows him to go nova like no one else.

I would rate an inquisitor as a tier 1 class just because he has so much going for him. At high levels the full 9 level casters may pull ahead a bit. Chose a race that favored class bonus can increase your spells known and you will have a very strong character.


Eltacolibre wrote:
Deylinarr wrote:
Has there been an FAQ or anything that says the universal monster rule you're quoting applies to SLAs of someone with class levels? Makes sense to have a default for classless monsters but I'm not following the logic of why that would be the same for abilities granted by a class?

It's not just a monster rule, that's just how spell like abilities work, unless stated otherwise, which some classes do mention. SLA rule appears also in the core rulebook.

I just looked up the spell like ability in core rule book and it does not say anything about it being charisma based. The only place I can find that it mentions charisma is in the Bestiary under the universal monster rules.


In addition to everything else people have listed inquisitors are actually one of the best skill monkeys in the game. The bonus to sense motive and a good wisdom means they are almost impossible to lie to. Throw in the ability to discern lies and they are a walking lie detector. They can track better than a ranger because they will usually have a higher WIS. The bonus to intimidate when used with the feat corngun smash means that anyone they hit is shaken. Monster lore allows them to add WIS to identifying monsters, and they can take the feat improved monster lore to get their rolls higher than a bard.

The ability to detect any alignment not just good is really helpful. Combine that with good perception and sense motive and they are pretty hard to fool. If they take the conversion inquisition they can dump CHA and still be the party face.

Their spell lest is great. Pick mostly buffs and utility spells and your versatility is insane. Having the healing spells on your spell list allows you to use wands and scrolls to fill the role of healer. Invisibility and knock means that you are a better rogue than the rogue. Take a trait to get disable device as a class skill to deal with mundane traps and use dispel magic for magical traps. The 0 level spell sift allows you to search an area from 30’ away. Detect magic will allow you to figure out if the trap is magical before you even try. Guidance gives you a +1 on any skill you want. Detect thoughts can be used to read surface thoughts making inquisitors even better at getting information.

There was a whole thread going on whether it is evil for an inquisitor to torture people, but they don’t really even need to. They have so many ways to gain information without having to torture that even evil inquisitors probably don’t have to bother.


I usually keep the aging rules including the starting ages. To me it gives the various races different world views. Elves should be more than just humans with pointy ears and a list of racial abilities. Since PC are supposed to be different I have no problem if they want to change things around a bit.

If you want to start out as a younger elf that is fine with me and I do not require you to take the young adjustments. But if a player wants to start out at an older age and wants the stat adjustments I am fine with that too. I would even let someone take the aging adjustments without actually being older as long as they had a backstory to explain it. For example if someone wanted to play a character like Elric or Raistlin I would be fine with them taking aging adjustments.


I can understand you view, but don’t see what the problem is. The +3 INT is great for a wizard, but having to take -6 on DEX and CON more than make up for it. You are getting at least a -3 penalty on HP per level, AC, and on your worst two saves. The +1 to will saves and some skills don’t really make up for what you lose.


Everyone seems to forget that any character can purchase an animal with gold. True it does not advance as you level up so tends to be quite frail and only useful for a limited time. A hawk costs a mere 18 gold which could be in the budget for a first level character. At first level it has about the same stats as the animal companion. At 2nd level the animal companion progresses and gains on the average an additional 4 HP for a total of 8 HP. It does not progress at 3rd level and gains full HP at 4th. A normal ranger gets his animal companion at 4th and at this point has about 11 HP and is quite frail. The normal ranger can pick up boon companion at 5th to get his companion up to full druid progression. At 6th level the normal ranger is getting his second combat feat, which the falconer does not get.

So at first level the falcon is about the same. At second and third level the falconer’s companion is slightly better. By 4th level the falconer’s companion is substantially better. At 5th level both the companions are identical. And at 6th level the normal ranger is getting an extra arrow at full BAB. Share spell does not matter until 4th level when a ranger actually gets spells.

The falconer needs to have a DEX of at least 17, and have point blank shot to even qualify for manyshot. He also cannot get this before 7th level because that is the first feat he has after qualifying for it. So at this point the falconer is down a feat from the normal ranger, and also has less STR because he needed to spend the points on DEX. The original poster stated he wanted to be a switch hitter not an archery focused ranger. The switch hitter usual favors STR above DEX so may have trouble qualifying for many shot.

In any case the falcon cannot take the trick hunting because hunting requires scent which he does not have. He can take all the individual tricks in hunting except track.


The falconer does get full animal companion progression. My question is what are you looking to get out of your animal companion? As I see it the only thing this archetype gives you is the fact you get your animal companion 3 levels early, but at half HP until 4th level. During those early levels he going to be too frail to be of much use in combat. A small bird is not really a great combat companion, but is a good scout or messenger.

For this you are giving up a bonus combat feat. The big thing with the ranger bonus feats is they ignore prerequisites. That is one of the things that make the ranger the best class for a switch hitter. Losing many shot until 10th level is going to seriously weaken your efficiency as an archer.

If it were me I would not bother with the archetype and just use boon companion at 5th level. If you are playing a human that helps get all the feats even if some of them are purchased early.


Starting with full plate may be a bit much, but I can see starting with some sort of heavy armor and decent weapons. It just seems wrong that the starting rogue has a higher AC then the starting paladin. With the way starting gold works now the DEX based characters usually start with maxed out AC, and the heavy armored characters have crap for AC.

The idea of starting with a free masterwork item is something I have seen but never worked well. If you give the item total free you end up with one character starting with masterwork full plate and another getting a masterwork dagger or equally weak item. Also some characters do not get a lot out of a masterwork item. What masterwork item is really going to make a difference to a wizard?

I think that a starting wealth of 775 GP seems to be about right. It allows all characters to start out with appropriate equipment without giving them too much. Most combat focused characters will probably be starting out around AC 18 and have at least one good weapon but still be able to afford a secondary weapon. The extra gold will also allow a rogue to start with some masterwork items like armor and thieves tools. Wizards and sorcerers will be able to start with a wand of some sort.

This might seem a little overpowered, but I prefer to run tough campaigns and I always end up having to baby the characters for at least first level. Since I use a 25pt build for the games I run this should work out well.


The warpriest is a good alternative to a paladin. This is especially true if you want to play paladin of another alignment. The Champion of the Faith archetype is perfect for this. Not as good in combat as paladin but the extra magic ability helps.


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A series linked demi planes with one way gates. The only way to get out is to run the gauntlet so to speak. Each plane is connected only to the adjacent planes, and the first plane is a magic dead plane to prevent you from going back. Once you start the gauntlet your choices is win or die.


If you are going for a dip in paladin you probably want two levels. This gives you CHA to saves and a little healing with lay on hands.


Mark Hoover wrote:

Some of my players a few campaigns ago complained about this so I began a houserule called "use your skills." Oh, your martial PC begins the game with craft: weaponsmithing? All of your starting weapons were hand built with your skill and the Ultimate Campaign Downtime rules, making them much cheaper.

I figure rather than give them MORE gold I'd rather incentivize them to use the skills they have. If a wizard starts the game with Scribe Scroll for example they could use the Downtime rules, spend 50 GP of their starting gold on earning one Magic Capital and then use that to pay the cost of making 100 GP worth of scrolls. The wizard starts with 8 scrolls, feels cool that they had a practical use of their bonus feat and I didn't have to screw around with starting gold.

Finally I also allow them to use their skills for one another. If they work themselves together as a team before the game starts and one guy has Craft: Leather then anyone in the party that can use leather or studded leather armor can begin the game with a cheaper set right at the beginning. So far I haven't had any complaints though not all my players take advantage either.

How much time do you give them in downtime? I like the idea, but other than requiring the character have skills in craft this is still just multiplying the starting gold.


Keep in mind that traveling forward in time is a lot easier than traveling back in time. Everyone travels forward in time just by existing. I can see that a wish would be easily able to move someone forward in time without too much trouble. When you travel forward in time the only person affected is the person traveling. He can’t change the course of the world any more than someone already there.

Traveling back in time is going to be a lot harder. Not only are you going against the flow of universe you have the ability to completely alter reality. Look up the butterfly effect to see what I mean. As Drake Brimstone mentioned Pharasm would probably get involved at this point. Probably any backward time travel will need her assistance.


Actually he rolls 2d20 and takes the higher result, and does the same with the 2d6. That is still a maximum of 26 he can roll, not 42. He has also spent all of his investigator talents in order to do so.

Compare this to a bard’s ability with knowledge skill, or a half orc inquisitor with intimidate, sense motive or identifying monsters and it is not that big of a deal. A 5th level bard with a 14 INT will if he puts maximum skill ranks into a knowledge skill will have a +12 and once a day can take 20 on a knowledge skill. A 5th level half orc inquisitor with a 18 WIS and the conversion inquisition and improved monster lore has a +14 intimidate, and sense motive and can have a +17 to identify monsters. With Insightful Gaze the Inquisitor can also roll twice for sense motive and take the higher roll.


One thing that has bothered me about beginning characters is that many martial characters cannot afford appropriate gear. The beginning gold for a first level character makes most heavy armor and bows with a STR modifier too expensive for a first level character to purchase. By second level this has gone away. The problem is that sometimes you don’t have an opportunity to head back to town to purchase new gear.

I played in a legacy of fire campaign and during the first book you are out of town with no way to get better equipment. I was playing a switch hitting ranger so was stuck with a simple long bow with no STR bonus until after 5th level. The same thing happens with characters that by concept should be using heavy armor, but even chain mail is a stretch for a first level character to afford. Another thing that is annoying is the first level wizard gets his spell book for free instead of having to pay for it, but still gets up to 120 GP for starting wealth. You can use the trait rich parents to get 900 GP as your starting wealth, but that seems to waste of a trait. I also think it is unfair that one character gets a permanent ability and the other basically gets nothing after they have gone on a few adventures.

The two ideas I had where to start everyone with the twice the maximum gold, but require everything to be purchased. Or to give everyone 900 GP as starting equipment but require that 90% of it be spent. I was wondering if anyone else considers this a problem.


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A Half Orc Paladin 16/Sorcerer 10/Dragon Disciple 10/ Eldritch Knight 4. Take Fey Foundling, Ferocious Resolve, Greater Mercy, and Reactive Healing. Have a Contingency that casts Deathless on yourself when you are killed.

This character will be almost unstoppable. He cannot be killed for 20 rounds from HP damage. He has multiple immunities, and will probably make any saving throws vs anything he is not immune to. He is fully functional during the 20 rounds after being “killed”. He can cast Timestop and have 2-5 rounds of casting to heal and, or buff himself after being “Killed”. He can also heal himself for around 50 HP per round as a swift action. On the 19th round he again casts Timestop and use Wish to fully heal himself.

He also has full 20th level casting level of a sorcerer to back up his martial ability. Vs. an evil opponent he will be doing a ridicules amount of damage. If he uses a falchion and takes improved critical, and casts Bless Weapon he will automatically critical on a 15 or better. Throw in Litany of Righteousness to for double damage vs. evil.


I was writing up a sorcerer villain and was looking at the shades spell. It functions like shadow conjuration except for it can be used to cast higher level spell. My question is can you uses this and other shadow spells to cast metamagic versions of the spell. For example could I use greater shadow evocation to cast a intensified, elemental, heightened fireball?


Charon's Little Helper wrote:

I'd say that in a low magic campaign - the shortsword is far superior unless you're going one of the builds which gets extra bonuses on crit. This is because in a low magic campaign, static bonuses are going to be harder to come by.

Does anyone really think he can get a +10 static modifier on an off-hand weapon without magic? And that's with Improved crit!

Before level 9 and improved crit (which costs a feat) you'd need a +20 static modifier to make the reduced damage worth it statistically. (not gonna EVER happen in low magic - except maybe with a two-handed weapon, and in that case there's a 3 point damage gap between greatsword & falchion, in which case you'd need a 60 point static modifier)

The only advantage to the kukri is if you're in love with one of the extra bonuses you get on crits. (a few feats etc)

A 5th human fighter can achieve this with no magic. He will need a 20 DEX but only a 10 STR which is easily done. He takes weapon finesse, slashing grace, piranha strike, double slice, and two Weapon fighting. He will be at +9 to hit, doing 1d4+12 for the primary hand, and +9 to hit, doing 1d4+10 with the secondary.


Artanthos wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
20th level Zen Archer/20th level Inquisitor. Flurry of Greater Bane, Judgments and a few buffing spells get insane amount of damage. Throw in Cluster Shot and Hammer the Gap for more damage. With proper items I can get over 1000 point of damage in a round. Massive damage rules means this will kill any living thing.

If your using massive damage rules, the kensai/diviner or kensai/sohei always wins.

80+ initiative and nova vs. touch AC. In the game of rocket tag, he who fires first wins.

That is assuming you get to attack. I can be hiding over 100 feet away and use Dimensional Savant to suddenly be within 30 feet of you and attack you 8 times. I have Righteous Might, True Seeing, Divine Power, Find Quarry, Greater Invisibility, Spell Immunity, Stoneskin, Freedom of Movement, Nondetection, Daybreak Arrow, Heroism, Hunters Eye, and each arrow has had Greater Named Bullet cast on it from a scroll.

I teleport in and attack your touch AC, and automatically have a potential critical due to greater magic bullet, if I actually roll a critical the extra +40 damage is also multiplied by 3. Each hit will be doing between 390 to 550 points of damage assuming I confirm the critical, and then at the end I teleport back out to where I was hidden. If you manage to somehow get a shot at me I am immune to your spell, and ignore the first 100 points of normal damage assuming you do not have an adamantine weapon.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
20th level Zen Archer/20th level Inquisitor. Flurry of Greater Bane, Judgments and a few buffing spells get insane amount of damage. Throw in Cluster Shot and Hammer the Gap for more damage. With proper items I can get over 1000 point of damage in a round. Massive damage rules means this will kill any living thing.

A variation of this, inquisitor 20/ZAM 10/evangelist of Erastil 10

Everything MS said, plus Wis to attack and damage rolls on top of the normal Dex/Str combo.

Abundant Step requires 12th level monk. With a full 40 levels you can pick up the full dimensional Savant chain. Combine this with the teamwork feats from the inquisitor that allows you to flank with a ranged attack. Also Diamond Soul gives you a spell resistance of 30 at 20th level. Combine this with stalwart and a ring of evasion (Zen Archers lose evasion) and you laugh at magic. A spell has to get past your spell resistance and you have to fail the save for it to have any effect. You will also be giving up an extra attack per round due to losing the extra attack from flurry at 15th. All in all staying full Zen Archer/Inquisitor seems stronger.


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20th level Zen Archer/20th level Inquisitor. Flurry of Greater Bane, Judgments and a few buffing spells get insane amount of damage. Throw in Cluster Shot and Hammer the Gap for more damage. With proper items I can get over 1000 point of damage in a round. Massive damage rules means this will kill any living thing.


LazarX wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The biggest problem I have encountered is not that a concept cannot be done, but that it cannot be done in a manner that satisfies the player. This mostly happens when someone it trying to recreate something from a TV show, or movie.

I know a player that is constantly trying to recreate the TV version of Hercules. The biggest problem is that the TV show version has the equivalent of around a 45 point build. He is also a very high level character and the player gets frustrated not being able to do what he thinks his character should do. He also does not want to rely on magic items because the character on TV did not have any magic items. While the mythic rules and the new ACG help they still cannot meet the player’s expectations.

Unless you are running a solo campaign Pathfinder is a group experience. While absolute balance of the characters is almost impossible to achieve, game balance is still important. Most people do not want to play clearly inferior characters just so one person can get what he wants. Some concepts no matter how cool just don’t work well and should be avoided.

The show "Hercules" is in no way the model of a standard campaign, nor a standard character. The problem is to give the player what he wanted, not only did it require a modification to the character, it required a mod to the campaign as well. You need to change things such as recovery. I'm somewhat mystified why he could not have done this through Mystic rules. A Champion Dual-Pathed to Guardian should have pulled it off relatively easily with a bit of development.

That was kind of my point, is that he had a concept that did not work well in a game. His biggest problem was that his concept required a high level character and through half the game his character would not have been able to do what he thought it should be able to do. This was also before Mythic Adventures, or the ACG came out. But even so his concept had great physical stats with a minimum of 18 STR, at least 14 in DEX and CON, above average mental stats with a minimum 14 CHA. He also wanted to fight unarmed and to be able to do as much damage as a two handed fighter. Trying to do this without using magic items is impossible.

I use a 25 point buy and suggested he go for more of a classic Hercules where he dumps INT, and WIS and has an average CHA, but that was not what he wanted. As I said some concepts do not work well in a game. If I had let him have what he wanted in all fairness I would have had to give the other players equally overpowered abilities. This would have also meant I would have had to total rewrite the campaign I had planned and I did not want to do this.


If you are just looking for a cool magical attack I would probably avoid the eldritch heritage feat. At 12th level you are only getting 1d6+5 of damage for two feats. A better way would be to take the major magic and choose shocking grasp for your spell. It gives you 5d6 damage at 5th level twice a day, and you can add your sneak attack to that.


The biggest problem I have encountered is not that a concept cannot be done, but that it cannot be done in a manner that satisfies the player. This mostly happens when someone it trying to recreate something from a TV show, or movie.

I know a player that is constantly trying to recreate the TV version of Hercules. The biggest problem is that the TV show version has the equivalent of around a 45 point build. He is also a very high level character and the player gets frustrated not being able to do what he thinks his character should do. He also does not want to rely on magic items because the character on TV did not have any magic items. While the mythic rules and the new ACG help they still cannot meet the player’s expectations.

Unless you are running a solo campaign Pathfinder is a group experience. While absolute balance of the characters is almost impossible to achieve, game balance is still important. Most people do not want to play clearly inferior characters just so one person can get what he wants. Some concepts no matter how cool just don’t work well and should be avoided.


Have you thought of monk? If you take the feat monastic legacy and latter get a robe of the monk you will be doing the full damage of a monk. Focus on STR and take power attack, and tiger style. This will allow you to apply the penalty from power attack to AC instead of to hit. Almost all the required feats for shadow dancer are monk bonus feats so this gives you some flexibility with your other feats. Fast stealth added to the monks increased speed works really well.


By the same reasoning a rust monster should also be able to kill any living creature because we all have iron in our blood. There is a big difference between containing liquid and being liquid. Besides liquid is a state of being not a substance. Water like any substance can and does exist in all three forms (Solid, Liquid, and Gas).


Hero labs has a lot of bugs for the ACG supplement so I would not use that as a basis for to the legality of an ability. For example it clearly states you can take extra investigator talents multiple times but it only allows you to pick the feat once before it is removed from the list. Hopefully they will becoming out with an update soon.


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Linguistics for the extra languages would be very useful. Being able to communicate with all your summoned creatures is a pretty good idea.

Sense motive is probably also useful due to the fact many wizards dump wisdom. Having a good chance to figure out when someone or something is lying to you is also a good idea. It is almost required for a wizard dealing with evil outsiders.

Diplomacy would be my last choice because many wizards dump charisma. While they have spells like charm person to cover some of this there are times when casting spells are not a good idea. Casting a spell on the king during court is going to get you killed. Diplomacy is also used when bargaining so would be very useful to a wizard. The savings in material components alone could pay for the headband.


LazarX wrote:
Ambrus wrote:
Fly would make sense for some, but it's such a niche concern that I can't see it being amongst the most common choices. How about Stealth? Being able to hide is useful in a pinch and not something a wizard has likely bothered to learn beforehand.
That's what the Invisibility and Vanish spells are for. And much more reliable than a Wizard trying to roll Stealth on skill alone.

Invisibility and Vanish give huge boosts to stealth, but have more of a bonus is never bad.


Another option would be to use Clarke’s third law. It states that “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”. Just reskin the spells to a more scientific explanation. Wizards could create small devices that create the effect instead of casting spell. For the most part the device or at least most of the components are expended when the device is activated. Divine magic will be tougher, but could be done by calling on the energy from other dimensions. The alignment restrictions could be that without the proper mindset (Alignment) you are not able to understand the dimension.


I would say the alchemist and other alchemy based classes need to be removed. Too many of the extracts have an obvious magical nature. The ability to turn into an undead or dragon is not mundane in any way shape or form. Alchemists also get the brew potion feat free. The ability to create magical potions is obviously not a mundane ability. In the real world alchemy lead to modern chemistry, but alchemy is not chemistry.


About the only thing that can match an inquisitor for sneakiness is an archeologist bard. Both of them have invisibility on their spell lists. Both classes can use spell to boost up their abilities both in combat and out of combat to ridicules levels.


Unless this is a low magic setting proving your innocence is not that hard. There are plenty of spells capable of verifying what someone says is true. There are at three 2nd level inquisitor spells that can do this and that is just off the top of my head. Depending on the setting they authorities may employ a suitable spell caster. If not the party may have the option of hiring spell caster as an expert witness on their behalf.


As an investigator he does not get his second attack until 8th level. If he follows the recommended progression then he will be about 4th tier by then. Taking dual path at first level to get an ability at 8th really does not do much for him. Also unless he is doing a decent amount of damage in combat it is not worth it.


While the trickster may not be as strong when it comes to combat it is very good at noncombat and odd abilities. If you are playing a low strength investigator then you are obviously not focusing on direct combat anyways. I do agree that you should not be wasting mythic feats on normal feats you will be missing out on a lot of power that way. Without knowing your build and stats giving helpful advice is harder, but below are a few ideas.

Assured Drinker: This allows you to be able to use your alchemical extracts without having to worry about attacks of opportunity. If you spend a mythic point you get to use your extract as a swift action.

Control the Mindless: Take control of constructs and undead if you make your knowledge roll (Arcane, and Religion). Having the undead horde tear apart the necromancy is pretty sweet. Since your knowledge skills will be through the roof this is a very strong ability.

Display of Intelligence: Take the Empiricist Archetype and this one is pretty much a must have. The ability to add +20 to most of your skills is incredible. Combine with Control Mindless for even greater results.

Enhance Magic: UMD is a class skill, and if you took the Empiricist Archetype it is now intelligence based. Load up on scrolls, wands and even staves and use those to attack. You may not be as effective as a full caster with his spells, but this certainly allows you to contribute to combat. This works really well with low level wands. That wand of magic missile caster level 1 becomes a lot more potent in your hands.

Mythic Weapon Finesse: Since you have a low strength I assume your dexterity is decent. This allows you to add dexterity instead of strength for damage.

Mythic Paragon allows you to be treated as if your tier was two higher for most mythic abilities. If you took Enhance Magic this gives you an extra level when using those magic items.

Mythic Spell Lore: Not sure if this one will work, but if it does it would let you create mythic extracts instead of spells.

Finally the best reason to take trickster is Path Dabbling. Being able to take a path ability for another path is a great ability.


If you take the Empiricist archetype then Display of Intelligence is probably a great choice for a path ability. The ability to add a +20 to any intelligence based roll is very useful for that archetype. As for feats I think mythic spell lore should allow you to create mythic extracts.


How many other players do you have? If there are enough other players to fill out the party, and the two players are not concerned with having a full character it should be ok. Don’t make any adjustments to the characters, but if they find it is not working allow one of them to come in with a new character. As long as everyone is having fun and it does not affect the other players it is not a big deal.

I have seen this done with a wizard in another game. One player was the Wizard and the other played the familiar. If this is a large group it could be a blessing as one of the complaints of the summoner is having too many figures on the board. If you have the other player controlling all the summoned creatures even when the Eidolon is not there that could work at well. The only problem I see is the player playing the Eidolon may find get bored, or want more active input on the game.


As a GM I usually go by the rules so my players know what to expect. If there are any hose rules or exceptions I tell them about them up front. If there is already an in game method to handle the request I use that. This seems to be the fairest way to handle these situations. As a GM you are supposed to be impartial and not favor any one player over another.

There are also some concepts that just don’t work in the game. I had a player who wanted to play a character based on the TV series Hercules. No matter how he tried he could not build a character that satisfied what he wanted to do. The problem was he wanted to play a demi-god not a PC. I use a 25pt buy but he wanted to have the equivalent of a 60pt buy. I suggested that he base the character more of off mythology so he could dump a couple of stats to afford closer to what he wanted for physical stats. When he was not willing to do that I simply told him no.


The big problem I see with allowing substitutions for spell list is where you stop? If I let an archer bard have all the spells he wants to play a cool character can I deny the combat casting bard the spells he wants? Pretty soon you have everyone having the same spells. And if I allow spell casters to choose any spell they want can I deny the martial classes the ability to use any exotic weapon they want? As a GM I don’t want to start down that slope. If a player in a game I am running really wants something extra they need to be willing to give up something to get it. I would be fine with a custom feat that allowed that added spells to your spell list like unsanctioned knowledge does for a paladin, and would probably use that as a basis. I could even see a custom trait allowing a single spell to be added to your spell list.


Hero system is a great system especially for someone with a specific concept in mind. I have played in many Hero system games. For people who have the time and want to play a specific character it cannot be beat. It does take some system mastery to get what you want. It also requires more out of the GM because you have to create more. Pathfinder’s strengths lie in that is quicker and easier to create something.

My assumption for the role of the core bard is based on the class description in the core rule book. Role: Bards capably confuse and confound their foes while inspiring their allies to ever-greater daring. While accomplished with both weapons and magic, the true strength of bards lies outside melee, where they can support their companions and undermine their foes without fear of interruptions to their performances. In my opinion the bard spell list does this very well. While it is true that not every bard will be built this way this is the basis of the class. What makes a character unique is when they start branching out from the core abilities of the class. This is done through taking the appropriate archetypes, feats, Traits, etc..

When a class has an ability directly tied to a particular activity I consider that to be core to the class. Rangers for example get bonus feats so archery (if they take the combat style) is core to a ranger. The bard on the other hand has nothing that directly improves archery and since they are only proficient in short bows and are a ¾ BAB class. This means that to make an archer bard you are already two steps behind most dedicated archers. Again this is not to say you cannot be a decent archer, but you will never be the equal of a dedicated archer.

For the most part the classes are designed to be good at specific things. If you want to stretch this and add some depth to your character that is great, but don’t complain when you are not able to match the specialist. Part of this is also about game balance. No character can be, or should be good at everything. The bard gets a lot of abilities but for the most part they are usually weaker than other classes. They can use armor and weapons, but not a well as a martial class. They have spells, but they tend to be weaker than dedicated spell caster. The only thing they do better than any other class is skills.

As previous post proves there are ways to get gravity bow on the bards list. Instead asking for advice on how to get this done the original poster was in his own words complaining about the spell list.


I think for the most part the spell lists are tied to a specific theme. The problem is that some people prefer different themes. The bard spell list seems to be pretty good selection based on the role of the core bard. Its theme seems to be trickery and support which fits the bard very well. It does not have a lot of direct combat spell other than a few sonic based which kind of makes sense for a class based on performance.

The original poster was complaining because one spell he wanted to use was not on the bards spell list. He wanted to make a cool archer bard and threw a hissy fit when he did not get gravity bow on his list. Bards as a rule are not noted for being archers. They only get proficiency with short bows, not long bows. While it is possible to make a decent archer bard that is not core to the class. It may be core to a particular bard’s conception, but it is not core to the class.

A class’s spell list should be about boosting the role of the class itself, not doing everything under the sun. For the most part Paizo has done a decent job of selecting appropriate spells.

If you want a system that allows you to create any spell you want for any character try Hero System. In the Hero System as long as you can afford it and the GM does not veto it you can have anything you want. It is a point based system with no character classes at all.


Antipaladin gives you more immunities and other abilities. Since your charisma will be so high this really works well. Adding charisma to saves is going to mean you will probably never fail a save. Smite good also gives you charisma to hit and AC in addition to level to damage. Aura of despair gives a -2 penalty on all saves throws to anyone within 10 feet of you. Since you can only cast one spell a round having extra spells will not be as useful


Fraust wrote:

Mysterious...I'm assuming that was a general response to the thread? I'm not sure I fully get some of your points...right now similar characters have similar spells...

But as for the no cleric thing...having one list helps quite a bit with this. In AE (I mentioned it in my post above) the guy throwing out the area of effect damage spells and battlefield control spells, is also healing people...and the guy who's healing and buffing the party, is also throwing out area of effect...

There's still a bit of diversity with the exotic spells and the fact that some of the classes (half casters, the equivalent of bards, rangers, paladins, ect...) are largely limited to only the common spells and maybe a few very specific others. But ultimately it loosens the party role issue quite a bit.

With all the healing spells on the divine list than you cannot have an arcane healer. I have seen both a bard and a witch cover the role of healer. Having fewer spell list means that there is no overlap and some characters lose important spells. Inquisitors for example get a lot of utility spells like knock and invisibility that other divine caster do not. Under the few spell list idea they would lose access to them and their spell casting would be identical to a clerics.

The point is that more sell lists allow for a greater variety of classes. If all the spell lists are the same then the difference between the classes is diminished. If there is only one arcane list then bards would be tossing around fireballs, and lightning bolts. Access to better spell lists is an important part of the class.


The problem with limited spell lists is then every character will tend to have the same spells. This is the way it was in 1st edition when there were only 4 spell lists. You had cleric, magic user, druid and illusionist spells. Paladins got cleric spells; rangers used both magic user and druid. Bards were a weird case where you had to start as fighter, then go thief, and then could become a bard; who gets druid spells.

This usually meant that similar characters had the same spells. This also created the situation where you had to have certain classes. This is where the idea of the standard party of fighter, cleric, magic user, and thief comes from. I for one am glad that has changed. Now if no one wants to play a cleric his role can be covered by multiple other classes. Doing away with specialized spell lists would mean that would no longer be the same.


The oracle of life is the best healer in the game bar none. Since an oracle does not have an alignment restriction there is nothing to prevent you from being an evil oracle of life. You can even choose to spontaneously cast cure spells instead of inflict. The life oracle also gets most of the condition removal spells as bonus spells. This will allow you to take whatever you want for your normal spells without having to waste slots.

Use Antipaladin for your other class to get your combat ability and the ability to channel negative energy. This will give you all the social skills as class skills and obviously you will have the charisma to be able to make them work. Antipaladins also get Undetectable Alignment as a second level spell which will allow you to pretend to be good, and almost everyone will believe you. You could even carry out impersonating a paladin complete with being able to heal.

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