Barl Breakbones

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Monk of the 4 winds isn't very good. The 17th level capstone ability of pounce you now get with Pummelling Style (get this).

Hungry Ghost Qinggong monk is solid, with health and ki point regen. You have a serious amount of points to spend. Oni-Tiefling is also solid, +2 strength and +2 wisdom with many bonus Tiefling bonus stuff.

Focus on strength then wisdom.

Items.

Strength belt, keep high.
Knuckles, keep high.
Cloak of Resistance, whatever is reasonable or can find.
Ring of Prot. whatever is reasonable or can find.
Headband of wisdom whatever is reasonable or can find.
7-8th level look for boots of speed.
10-11 look of for monk robes.
Bracers of defence is for level 15+ when it becomes cheap, mage armour will last many hours, get a mage a Pearl of Power. +4 bracers is expensive, potions are cheap.
See Invisibility potion is sexy in times of need.

Handysack is good.

Get Pummelling Style, it's seriously overpowered.
Take Barkskin as your Qinggong ability at 4th, set you up forever, don't have to pay for the amulet, and if you wear knuckles there are many sexy pieces for that slot.


My thought would go towards Inquisitor or Witch. You have a fairly dark group.


Crozekiel wrote:
Mydrrin, are you even reading the replies? It has been pointed out over and over again that it isn't a special material. If I understand correctly, your argument is that no other (official) magic does it, therefore it can't be magic? No matter how much you want it to be a special material, it currently is not.

Meh, you say it isn't. OK. Back it up.

You say there isn't any magic in pathfinder that does what Celestial does but that doesn't prove anything.

What do you bring to the table of this argument? I've been saying since first page that it is a special material, the rules are plain.

You say...nope it's magic. Yeah the new kind we don't have, but it must be there, we just need to deduct what we know to know the price we should put on all the things Celestial does. Then you get into an argument about what it all means.

JJ even states it is gold and silver, the description from where it comes from says gold and silver.

"This bright silver suit of +3 full plate is remarkably light, and is treated as medium armor. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%. It allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day."

Creator also need a good being to make it, and has a good aura. Everything points to a special material.

But maybe the Pathfinder world will change and you will be right, and it will only be gold to decrease Arcane Spell Failure and all the others. Because somehow locked in a non-pathfinder item is the clues to overpoweredness.

It was not meant to be this way.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Figures, rogues get something nice and the populous bans it...

Nice, I see what you did there.


LordSynos wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:

The thing you aren't getting is that the reason Mithral has the general rules is because you can make anything from it. With a base of steel you do "this". So it works for scale mail or chain mail or breastplate.

Then you want to apply this general rule against a different material. It's what the problem is. The conception that you just somehow derive how much those bonuses are worth from the different material and cost it into a new and improved item.

Celestial is a certain item, not a general rule, even third party from paths. To me, in my games, they are semi artifacts either given as a major boon or ripped off the body of an angel general. That anyone with major ranks in religion or planes would see your armour and know it's history or even what you might have done by seeing the item. It takes the power of a good god to imbue these attributes into the gold and silver.

Celestial is a material and acts like a material and costs like a material. There is no way to gain improved Armour Check Penalty and Max Dex and Arcane Spell Failure in Pathfinder through enchantment/enhancement, only through change in materials. To allow this improvement through a cost of just gold pieces changes the game. Anything that changes the rules/game to allow isn't kosher in my games.

Especially just to build an overpowered item. IE - truestrike goggles, some people allow them but it just ain't kosher and isn't supported within the game.

Naw, man, I get it. The thing you're not getting is that Celestial Armour, the Celestial Shield and Celestial Plate are not made from a special material. I 100% agree, if they were, there's no question it and Mithral can't both be happening. But they're not. I get that it's different in your game, Good Gods required and all that, and that's cool. But from a Core rules perspective, it's not a special material. It's an enhancement.

But it is. Show me how you get other than changing materials: improved Max Dex, Armor Check Penalty and Arcane Spell Failure.

The proposal is that can just change the rules so it will just cost gold to decrease those as some propose. Now we just have to determine how much that costs....by reducing the amount from known amounts that interpolating it to the new armour. Not priced individually but priced as a package? Why not double that package or triple and wear no armour based full plate with +16 Max Dex 0% Arcane Failure. Meh....it's pretty silly. Oh but it's just the once you say....meh, still pretty silly.


The thing you aren't getting is that the reason Mithral has the general rules is because you can make anything from it. With a base of steel you do "this". So it works for scale mail or chain mail or breastplate.

Then you want to apply this general rule against a different material. It's what the problem is. The conception that you just somehow derive how much those bonuses are worth from the different material and cost it into a new and improved item.

Celestial is a certain item, not a general rule, even third party from paths. To me, in my games, they are semi artifacts either given as a major boon or ripped off the body of an angel general. That anyone with major ranks in religion or planes would see your armour and know it's history or even what you might have done by seeing the item. It takes the power of a good god to imbue these attributes into the gold and silver.

Celestial is a material and acts like a material and costs like a material. There is no way to gain improved Armour Check Penalty and Max Dex and Arcane Spell Failure in Pathfinder through enchantment/enhancement, only through change in materials. To allow this improvement through a cost of just gold pieces changes the game. Anything that changes the rules/game to allow isn't kosher in my games.

Especially just to build an overpowered item. IE - truestrike goggles, some people allow them but it just ain't kosher and isn't supported within the game.


There is no need for the order of operations.

It is it's own material. With special materials, you can only have one.

Mithral is a lightweight substance. That is a special material that improves dex max and arcane failure and armour check penalties.

Celestial is gold/silver that has been imbued by a god to have special properties. That improves dex max and arcane failure and armour check penalties.

The only way that improves dex max and arcane failure and dex penalties is from special materials.

You can only have one special material.

That you "have had" one doesn't mean it's a valid piece of gear. An no, his assumptions are not reasonable, he gives a value to the max dex, ASF, ACP of 14,350. Which would then make it reasonable to just "enhance" a piece of armour to have no arcane failure with just GP's. Or is it reasonable to pay 14,000 gp for a 20 max dex on stone full plate?

It breaks the rules and ideas of the game.


Suichimo wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:
Fusing is an enhancement bonus of +2. And is from Dreamscarred Press, a 3rd party material.

A 3rd party material that Paizo has said is how they would do Psionics if they put them into the game.

Quote:
So what enhancement should there be for all those bonuses of Celestial Plate? Should it be a +4 or +5 bonus to do all the things celestial armour does? Perhaps it doesn't compute with the numbers. The only thing that computes with the numbers is a special material.
It doesn't have a straight enhancement bonus, I've already been over this. It is an enhancement that purely costs gold to add on, and yes these do exist before you even ask.

Where is it and how much does it cost in gold to make Full Plate have 15% less Arcane Spell Resistance and one lighter Armour and +5 Dex? A mere 14k gp?

So for a mere 28k by your rules we should be able to get 30% less Arcane Spell Resistance, 2 lighter armour and +10 Dex and a quarter weight.

OK. Makes sense now.

Or we could just go it's a special material like mithral and is lighter and less restrictive at a certain level.


Suichimo wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:

Nope, can't find an enchantment or "magic" to reduce the spell failure. How about increase max Dex, or even decrease weight.

Spell resistance, energy resistance, etc...sure... But nothing that reduces max dex, weight or even armour check penalty for cash.

I find special materials that does that though.

You're not looking hard enough, then.

Quote:

Fusing

A suit of armor or a shield granted this ability melds with its wearer when the appropriate command word is given, seamlessly fusing with the wearer’s form. The Armor Check Penalty of the armor is reduced by 1 (to a minimum of 0), the Maximum Dexterity Bonus is increased by 1, any arcane spell failure is reduced by 10%, and the armor is treated as if one category lighter for movement restrictions. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. For example, a character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. These modifications are in addition to any changes from special materials, but do not stack with effects such as that from graft armor.

Aura Strong psychometabolism; ML 4th; Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, float; Price +2 bonus.

There is also the Nimbleness quality, to increase Max Dex, on page 13 of the Magic Item Compendium and the Twilight quality, to decrease ASF, on page 15 of the same book.

The only thing I can't find a property for is weight. There is, however, the spell Lighten Object which flat out reduces an item's weight by half.

Fusing is an enhancement bonus of +2. And is from Dreamscarred Press, a 3rd party material.

So what enhancement should there be for all those bonuses of Celestial Plate? Should it be a +4 or +5 bonus to do all the things celestial armour does? Perhaps it doesn't compute with the numbers. The only thing that computes with the numbers is a special material.


Suichimo wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:

How can you say this when it has a weight, max dex, armour check penalty, and spell failure like any other armour. Unquestionably is an odd word to use.

You now found out how much the material cost is just like with adamantine or mithral.

Do magic armors not have weight, max dex, acp, or asf? Every single armor in the game has those. There are magic properties which affect all of those. I'm really not sure what you're getting at with this.

I've broken down the costs for you for the "Celestial" property. It is not a special material as special materials don't require you to have anything to forge them.

Nope, can't find an enchantment or "magic" to reduce the spell failure. How about increase max Dex, or even decrease weight.

Spell resistance, energy resistance, etc...sure... But nothing that reduces max dex, weight or even armour check penalty for cash.

I find special materials that does that though.


Suichimo wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:

Not sure your question. It has special requirements. It's gold/silver (thought to be divine because of it's "purity") that is imbued by a lawful good god to make it celestial. The maker needs to be good.

If it's an enchantment there needs to be a cost.
If it's a material than there is rules.

It either can be one or the other. Not just a "magic".

There is no question. I'm flat out saying that it is an enchantment. We have the rules on modifying specific magic items. We have rules for enchantments that are either +x equivalent or +GP equivalent.

The +x equivalent is the +3. The +GP equivalent is every other bit of magic in it. We have a breakdown as such:

Full Plate - 1,500
Masterwork - 150
+3 Enhancement - 9,000
Total - 10,650

The price of the item is 25,000. 25,000 minus 10,650 equals 14,350. Therefore, the price for Fly 1/day, +5 Max Dex, and -15% ASF is 14,350.

It is unquestionably not a special material and is an enchantment with a cost of 14,350 GP.

How can you say this when it has a weight, max dex, armour check penalty, and spell failure like any other armour. Unquestionably is an odd word to use.

You now found out how much the material cost is just like with adamantine or mithral.


Suichimo wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:
Suichimo wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:
What is the enchantment? Which enchantment gives things lower weight, highest ability to be nimble, lowest spell failure? What is the bonus of said enchantment? Is it a +3 enchantment?

Read the rules. Conveniently, I posted them only a few posts above this one.

When you're altering specific magic items you have to decide what is a +x enhancement and what is a GP enhancement. Clearly, the armor is +3 so we know it has that. The rest of the abilities don't have a clear equivalent so the easiest thing to do is to make them a GP enhancement at the cost of 14,350, since +3 full plate is 10,650.

Now that you have these two numbers, you can easily modify the Celestial Plate Armor to your own desires, as long as your DM is fine with it.

But you can't go against things that are against the rules like have two materials. Only the dominant material is valid. What does the magical modification isn't about altering the material when it changes weight, dexterity enhancement and spell failure?

This wouldn't be the first magical property that does such a thing. 3.5 had Nimble and Twilight. In Ultimate Psionics there is a property called Fusing which does all of that.

It is very clear that Celestial isn't just another special material. It has actual requirements to be made.

Quote:

Celestial Plate Armor

Aura faint transmutation (good); CL 8th
Slot armor; Price 25,000 gp; Weight 25 lbs.
DESCRIPTION

Celestial plate armor is a sturdier version of the standard celestial armor.

This bright silver suit of +3 full plate is remarkably light, and is treated as medium armor. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%. It allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
CONSTRUCTION

Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fly, creator must be good; Cost 12,500 gp

If it were just a special material, you wouldn't have...

Not sure your question. It has special requirements. It's gold/silver (thought to be divine because of it's "purity") that is imbued by a lawful good god to make it celestial. The maker needs to be good.

If it's an enchantment there needs to be a cost.
If it's a material than there is rules. To me it is clearly a material given it's dex, nimbleness, and spell failure.

It either can be one or the other. Not just a "magic".


Suichimo wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:
What is the enchantment? Which enchantment gives things lower weight, highest ability to be nimble, lowest spell failure? What is the bonus of said enchantment? Is it a +3 enchantment?

Read the rules. Conveniently, I posted them only a few posts above this one.

When you're altering specific magic items you have to decide what is a +x enhancement and what is a GP enhancement. Clearly, the armor is +3 so we know it has that. The rest of the abilities don't have a clear equivalent so the easiest thing to do is to make them a GP enhancement at the cost of 14,350, since +3 full plate is 10,650.

Now that you have these two numbers, you can easily modify the Celestial Plate Armor to your own desires, as long as your DM is fine with it.

But you can't go against things that are against the rules like have two materials. Only the dominant material is valid. What does the magical modification isn't about altering the material when it changes weight, dexterity enhancement and spell failure?


Suichimo wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

It can't replace the stats and also be an adjustment on the stats. That is the point, either it is an adjustment, or it replaces the base stats.

Per the strict interpretation of RAW being heralded as correct by the "no" crowd, it would seem that the armor has it's stats replaced with the new base. Mithral's rules always adjust the base.

If that is not the interpretation, could someone please explain it to me?

It's a special material. Plain enough.

Can you put celestial upon adamantine full plate? To get :

An armour of 25 pounds, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%. It allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

With a hardness of 20 and a 1/3 more hit points and a /3 damage reduction?

Almost everyone would say no. Somehow mitral does? I don't think so. It's wrong any way you look at it.

How is it a material? It is a magic property, they even give you what you need to craft it.

And yes, Celestial Adamantine Full Plate is perfectly doable and has basically no grey area outside of modifying a specific magic item.

If it's a special material, then there are rules for that. That no two can overlap. It's either a special material or an enchantment.

What is the enchantment? Which enchantment gives things lower weight, highest ability to be nimble, lowest spell failure? What is the bonus of said enchantment? Is it a +3 enchantment?


master_marshmallow wrote:

It can't replace the stats and also be an adjustment on the stats. That is the point, either it is an adjustment, or it replaces the base stats.

Per the strict interpretation of RAW being heralded as correct by the "no" crowd, it would seem that the armor has it's stats replaced with the new base. Mithral's rules always adjust the base.

If that is not the interpretation, could someone please explain it to me?

It's a special material. Plain enough.

Can you put celestial upon adamantine full plate? To get :

An armour of 25 pounds, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%. It allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

With a hardness of 20 and a 1/3 more hit points and a /3 damage reduction?

Almost everyone would say no. Somehow mitral does? I don't think so. It's wrong any way you look at it.


Personally I like monks more because they have more options in the later parts of the game like after level 12. Monks have fewer weakness. Fighters can do a bit more damage depending on how they are made.


Do you have ranged? What is your party like?

If you have ranged the monk. If you don't fighter. That's how I would go. Dragon Style allows charging through rough terrain, lots of mobility. But if you don't have an archer, the lack of abilities to do ranged damage is a big liability.

Or you could go with the dimensional savant chain of feats to do damage anywhere. Retrain can be an option if your GM allows it, and swap out many of the feats to get it at level 12.


The two are special materials. And the rules state:

If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material.

Celestial isn't an enchantment like fortification, but a changing of the materials.

We are also talking about semi artifacts. There is not ability to make them, not in pathfinder. They are only linked to heroes of the lawful good plane.

If we allow Celestial Mithral than why can't we also have Celestial Mithral Demon Rhino Hide Armor?


master_marshmallow wrote:

Guys I'm not saying that Celestial Armor(s) reduce the weight category by one. Mithral does. Nothing in the rules says that the magic enchantments placed on the armor negate Mithral's properties.

If you make a suit of Celestial Plate, it is considered medium by it's own description. If it is made out of Mithral, then rules regarding Mithral armor are applied and it is treated one category lighter. Order of operations is not part of the rules set. I am applying the rules from both armors simultaneously.

But how can one make a piece of armour? You say it doesn't matter, somehow it just magically appears in the store. There are craftsmen that have to work on it.

If you say it is an enchantment to the armour. Then it has to be made first, then the enchantment placed upon it. And remains medium.

If you say the steel needs the enchantment? Then it changes the properties of the mitral steel to celestial and becomes only the celestial special material. And remains medium.


Is it a special material or an enchantment?

If an enchantment, what bonus cost would it incur?

To me it makes much more sense as a special material and doesn't stack and looks to be treated in that way in the costing. If it is an enchantment than how much more would the cost be? +3 enchantment?

Neither are in RAW for materials or enchantment. But hypothetically.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:

Here is the rule:

If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material.

Where is this rule from? Also, Celestial Armor is not a special material, we've been over this. It is lighter because of the magic involved.

also, the actual text on Celestial Armor** spoiler omitted **

You are being lied to friends.

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
It's not a question of stacking but one of order. It has to be mithral first. You can enchant mithral full plate. You cannot take an existing suit of magical armor and then convert it to mithral. Mithral does not make it medium armor. It remains heavy armor but reduces the penalty for wearing it to medium. Then Celestial actually makes it medium armor.

This is actually false.

Special Materials, Mithral wrote:
When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check
...

The quote is from Special Materials section. First paragraph.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials

Celestial (imbued gold/silver) is a different material than mithral. Full stop. Done.

Mitrhral is only lighter and more nimble in comparison to steel, not different materials, different materials have different attributes and you can only get one property.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Peet wrote:

The first step is to speak to your GM. If you think these arguments are relevant then direct him to read the thread.

I would expect that most GMs will say that this is not possible.

If I was the GM I would say that this is not possible.

If I was a player I would not expect my GM to permit such a thing.

The reason is that while it does not directly violate the stacking rules, it violates their principle, which is that you cannot duplicate an effect to double that effect. Specific circumstances that circumvent this should be directly spelled out, and if they are not then one should not assume that stacking is allowed.

In this case it seems that the advantage from Celestial mimics the advantage gained from mithral, only it is even better. I don`t think it was ever intended that this advantage would be combinable with the mithral benefits. A big part of the problem here is that the item dates from 3.5 and has not been clarified since then. The entry in CRB about celestial armor is basically copied from 3.5.

There is not problem with the fact that it is a 3.5 item, because the rules we are citing only refer to Specific Magic Items. Using the rules as written, you can make a specific magic item out of different material.

There is only one effect that makes the armor lighter, and that is the Celestial enchantment. Mithral is lighter due to mundane reasons, there is no effect being applied to it. The material is actually that light.

Where is this Celestial enchantment spell? What spell does the gods use to make the armour? It's through divine will that these are created out of gold and silver (thought of as divine/pure because of their lack of reactivity). How does one imbue the mithral (substituted for gold or silver) it's celestial enchantment if you don't have a lawful good god in your pocket with nothing else to do?

Perhaps gold and silver are the only material that can get the celestial

...

Here is the rule:

If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Peet wrote:

The first step is to speak to your GM. If you think these arguments are relevant then direct him to read the thread.

I would expect that most GMs will say that this is not possible.

If I was the GM I would say that this is not possible.

If I was a player I would not expect my GM to permit such a thing.

The reason is that while it does not directly violate the stacking rules, it violates their principle, which is that you cannot duplicate an effect to double that effect. Specific circumstances that circumvent this should be directly spelled out, and if they are not then one should not assume that stacking is allowed.

In this case it seems that the advantage from Celestial mimics the advantage gained from mithral, only it is even better. I don`t think it was ever intended that this advantage would be combinable with the mithral benefits. A big part of the problem here is that the item dates from 3.5 and has not been clarified since then. The entry in CRB about celestial armor is basically copied from 3.5.

There is not problem with the fact that it is a 3.5 item, because the rules we are citing only refer to Specific Magic Items. Using the rules as written, you can make a specific magic item out of different material.

There is only one effect that makes the armor lighter, and that is the Celestial enchantment. Mithral is lighter due to mundane reasons, there is no effect being applied to it. The material is actually that light.

Where is this Celestial enchantment spell? What spell does the gods use to make the armour? It's through divine will that these are created out of gold and silver (thought of as divine/pure because of their lack of reactivity). How does one imbue the mithral (substituted for gold or silver) it's celestial enchantment if you don't have a lawful good god in your pocket with nothing else to do?

Perhaps gold and silver are the only material that can get the celestial enchantment because of their purity. Or perhaps you are so much smarter than the gods?


master_marshmallow wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:

OK, lets go about this in a logical way.

Would you say that both of them are special materials that make them lighter? Both have the effect to make them lighter and more nimble.

So Celestial Plate has a dex bonus of +6. Celestial weighs 25 pounds.

And mithral full plate a dex bonus of +3. Mithral weights half the normal weight of 50 so 25 pounds.

Celestial plate makes it more nimble than mithral. What would replacing the material add to or hinder the plate?

Both are because of it's lightness that it makes it easier to move around in. You can't stack lightness to make it "lighter". Mithral only works this way with steels. It is only half the weight of steel, not half the weight of celestial silver.

There is nothing to stack!!!!

What follows this statement is only my interpretation: Mithral Fullplate weighs 25 lbs, which is half the weight of full plate. Mithral full plate has statistical adjustments due to it's physical properties, the metal is actually lighter.

Celestial (armors and shield) both cut the weight of their respective armor in half, reduce the armor by a weight category, and reduce the ACP and Spell Failures while increasing the max DEX by at least 300%. It is implied by James Jacobs that Celestial Armor has its properties due to the magic used on it, and that it is not lighter because of any special material used.

By applying the Celestial Armor Template onto a suit of Mithral Fullplate, you end up with a suit of +3 fullplate which is treated as light armor (but requiring medium proficiency), with a max DEX of +8, an ASF of 5%, and an ACP of 0. It weighs 12.5 lbs and costs 33,850 gp (16,925 gp to craft). These figures are achieved by simply applying the Mithral statistics to the Celestial plate armor.

The armor weighs as much as it weighs normally, without being magic. In all cases Celestial enchantments cut the weight in half, so regardless of the material, I interpret that the Celestial enchantment will reduce the weight by half and treat the...

What do you mean there is nothing to stack, you are trying to make them stack lightness to a quarter to 12.5 pounds. Celestial isn't a process to make something better, it's not a common process. The idea is that the armour of heavenly agents have a special type of material imbued with the divine power of a god to make flying, lightest, least encumbered armour.

So how do you take this special material and make it mitral. It's like taking mithral and combining it with darkwood to make a light, nimble armour for druids. This is two different materials, celestial silver or gold made into armour by the pure will of a god, and a mundane rare light metal. Materials don't stack, they are just materials - and in this case a super rare and impossible for mortals to fabricate. It's a silly construct to allow you think you should.


OK, lets go about this in a logical way.

Would you say that both of them are special materials that make them lighter? Both have the effect to make them lighter and more nimble.

So Celestial Plate has a dex bonus of +6. Celestial weighs 25 pounds.

And mithral full plate a dex bonus of +3. Mithral weights half the normal weight of 50 so 25 pounds.

Celestial plate makes it more nimble than mithral. What would replacing the material add to or hinder the plate?

Both are because of it's lightness that it makes it easier to move around in. You can't stack lightness to make it "lighter". Mithral only works this way with steels. It is only half the weight of steel, not half the weight of celestial silver.


In my opinion, plate is heavy armour.

Mithral: "Heavy armors are treated as medium"

Celestial: "is remarkably light, and is treated as medium armour."

It's the same to me. Both do the same thing. There is little question in my mind. They do not stack.


Wisdom in the flesh makes it a class skill and wisdom based. So if you can do disable device almost as well as a rogue and your perception is amazing. As a scout, a ZAM is pretty darn good. Other traits that are decent are reflex saves or fort save bonus.


MoMS allowed a character to get advanced feats with bonus feats. Monk gets bonus feats at 1st and 2nd level. So taking crane style at level one, crane wing at level one bonus and crane riposte as bonus level 2 feat.

-1 attack for not only dodging a hitting attack but also getting a AOO made it very strong. Getting it level 2 make it insane. Most mobs had one attack.

Loosing flurry of blows is pretty serious...but only taking a 2 level dip made it very sweet. There is also the tasty treat of evasion, wisdom bonus to AC, unarmed strike. Great saves. Add with Crane Wing style, it was a insanely strong dip.

Forcing one to take 7 levels of monk made it far less tasty, getting it later when mobs had more than one attack made it less strong. Taking only 2 levels of MoMS made the very serious negatives of MoMS moot. MoMS was made for dipping, few serious monks would ever take it because of the lack of flurry. But instead of fixing MoMS, they nerfed crane style.

You have a minor point about ranged mobs. If deflect arrows worked on ranged touch attack spells and you could throw them back like snatch arrows and have it at level 2? This would be as strong. Adding too many ranged mobs would make it more tactical, having 5 or more opponents with archers and front liners would make it a different game and casters would get creamed, just like we do when we see casters. Front liners make for single tough mobs, that are quick to down, feel good and get on with the story without taking too many resources of the party.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Still looking for some advice on my ZAM a few posts up.

Not sure on the traits you took. +2 Initiative is excellent for archers. There is also a trait that allows you to use wisdom instead of physical trait skill. Disable device is a good one if you don't have a rogue type.

Combat reflexes is also an odd choice. You shouldn't be in combat and making AOO much. Improved Initiative is very good. Maybe a theme here, going first is a big win for an archer, it's almost as good as getting an extra round; killing the caster first, dealing with the dangerous baddies that aren't up front before they can do bad things to your group.

The traits were a holdover from when that portfolio was a cleric. I forgot to change them. I'll take Reactionary and something else. As for Combat Reflexes, with getting Point Blank Master for free, I figured I'd go for the Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot feats and threaten 15 feet in every direction. And with the AC this guy will have, why not get right up in the thick of it. Also Combat Reflexes is nice to take a kick at someone who walks past you thinking you don't threaten in melee because you have a longbow out.

Combat Reflexes only work if you have more than one AOO a round. It's only when you get more than one in a round that it kicks in, which should be pretty rare. And your dex isn't going to be high so instead of one, you will get two. It's very situational and will be rarely used, there could be better options on things you will use much more often like +4 to initiative.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Still looking for some advice on my ZAM a few posts up.

Not sure on the traits you took. +2 Initiative is excellent for archers. There is also a trait that allows you to use wisdom instead of physical trait skill. Disable device is a good one if you don't have a rogue type.

Combat reflexes is also an odd choice. You shouldn't be in combat and making AOO much. Improved Initiative is very good. Maybe a theme here, going first is a big win for an archer, it's almost as good as getting an extra round; killing the caster first, dealing with the dangerous baddies that aren't up front before they can do bad things to your group.


Slacker2010 wrote:
Claxon wrote:

You're correct that melee types do have to be close. Interestingly, archers aren't melee types. And the sohei will lack point blank master (I don't believe there is any way for him to get it) so being up close to enemies while using a bow is a bad idea.

The only build it really is good for is a zen archer. Even then, they will likely have to spend a move action to get within 30 ft of the enemy to qualify, which also means the lose the ability to flurry for that round.

Archery is all about full attacks. If the zen archer or sohei start moving around to get into a certain range their sacrificing huge amounts of damage potential.

My real problem is that it's too situational to make an easy comparison with it since it will depend heavily on combat conditions.

Two things on this.

First, majority of baddies have to close on you, due to them being melee. That is the reason Cranewing was nerfed when the same range feat (deflect arrows) has less prereqs and is underwelming. So if they want to stay outside of 30ft let them. You can just full round attack over and over. Really PBS comes into play more often than not in engagements in PFS and all the APs I have played.

Second, You can always change the situation. I was following the DPR rules just expanding it to level 20. There has to be a baseline. As discussed earlier in the thread.

Cranewing was nerfed because of Master of Many Styles allowed full access to crane wing bonuses without the negatives. Instead of fixing MoMS they nerfed crane style.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:

Bigdaddyjug: You can't have more than one judgement up at once. The inquisitor guy was talking about having greater invisibility, heroism, divine power up, and now from you having divine favour up for the most damage.

Argus: sorry something didn't seem right, just tired I guess sorry for not double checking. Throw together an archer fighter at 15th level, I'm sure I'd miss something.

At level 8, an inquisitor can have 2 judgements active at the same time. At level 16, this goes up to 3. At level 20, he gets 3 judgements at the same time and for 1 of them he counts as 5 levels higher for its effectiveness.

I was the one upthread who posted a long post showing how easy it is for an inquisitor to get a crazy high attack bonus, and the only buffs I used were divine favor, heroism, judgements, and Bane.

@Slacker: All I need is 1 full round to buff before I turn into a howitzer on my inquisitor. Bane and Judgements are both swift actions, and one of my buffs is a 10 (20!) minute per level spell.

I was looking on the boards, sorry, it's stated plainly in the inquisitors abilities. Maybe they were talking about low levels.


Bigdaddyjug: You can't have more than one judgement up at once. The inquisitor guy was talking about having greater invisibility, heroism, divine power up, and now from you having divine favour up for the most damage.

Argus: sorry something didn't seem right, just tired I guess sorry for not double checking. Throw together an archer fighter at 15th level, I'm sure I'd miss something.


Gwen Smith wrote:
Yuukale wrote:

Guys, so far I`m not counting items (other than the gloves for those with weapon training) because I'm assuming everybody will get a +5 bow (or +2/3 and complete the rest with features such as Sohei's ki strike) and get their attributes to the top.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nrbLavMR4vMX_1QyO7hqfcTePdAK4W7Le_h eoNTfBYk/edit?usp=sharing

Assumptions:

* 20 point-buy

* All classes but paladin: 10-20-10-10-15-7

* Paladin: 10-20-10-09-10-14

* +2 to Main attribute (dex for all except for the monks, which are Wis)

* All ability score increases go to the main stat.

* Rapid Shot and Manyshot are taken by all except by Zen Archer Monk

* Evangelist of Erastil included just to see when it's beneficial to go this route or not.

My general starting stat bonuses for comparison are +2 damage (14 STR with composite bow) and +4 attack (18 DEX or WIS for monk). Like you, I don't usually bother with stacking the same items, since I'm interested in how the classes compare. I often don't bother doing the ability score increases from leveling and magic items, unless one class is somehow going to be different from another. If all the classes buy the same items at the same level, it just becomes noise in the class-to-class breakout.

Like you, I only ever count class-specific magic items. So far, this has been Gloves of Dueling for the fighter and Monk's Robe for the Zen Archer (since the Zen Archer can spend a ki point to increase damage to that of his unarmed strike). Up through 12th level, though, the Zen Archer is usually better off taking that Ki point for the additional attack, so the Monk's robe has less of an impact. After 12th level, it might be a better trade-off--I haven't broken it down that far.

I'm confused on your statement. If you have more attacks, then all the magic items etc becomes more important. An extra attack of 2d10+16 damage is better additive than 2d10 no? It will skew your results.

BTW at higher levels using unarmed damage is better than the extra attack, a possible 45.5 (7*6.5) damage is better than a possible 1d8+16 (20.5) damage. And haste (boots of speed) gets you and extra attack same as if you used a ki point. 11-12 is when a monk should pick up a monk belt, easily afforded and goes nicely with the boots of speed, before that extra attacks are generally better.


15th level ZA monk.

240,000 gp

Gear:
50,000 gp +5 bow
32,000 +4 Ring of protection
25,000 +5 Cloak of Resistance
13,000 Monk Robe
5,000 Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
12,000 boots of speed
32,000 +6 headband of wisdom
38,000 +6 belt of strength, +2 Dex, +2 Con
25,000 ring of evasion

2,000 gps left.

base attack 13/13/8/8/3/3 + 13 Wis + 5 bow + 1 WF -2 DA +1 haste = 31/31/31/26/26/21/21

Damage 2d10 + 4 DA +2 WS +5 Bow +5 Str = 27

Average damage if they all hit = 189 a round.

AC: 10,+4 RoP, +5 Nat, +5 Monk, +1 haste, +3 dex, +13 Wis, +1 Dodge, +1 hat = 43 with MA it's 47.

Saves:
Fort 9 + 3 Con + 5 Cloak = 17
Ref 9 + 3 Dex + 5 Cloak =17
Will 9 + 13 Wis + 5 Cloak = 27


Hammer the Gap, monks can get a bit more damage out of the feat.


ZA monk gets weapon specialization +2 at level 6.

Didn't know manyshot and rapid shot could be used in the same turn. Still thinking 3.5 I guess.

Arcane Strike might be used by arcane spell casters.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:
A 20th level Inquisitor +15 to hit, deadly aim lowers it, most Inquisitor stuff gives bonuses to damage and not hit. Seeing what your to hit looks like to see the relevance of the damage.

20th level inquisitor attack bonus:

BAB: 15
Dex: 10 (30 Dex is easy to obtain)
Weapon Focus: +1
Deadly Aim: -4
Rapid Shot: -2
Judgement of Justice: +5
Bane: +2
Weapon Enchantment: +3
Heroism: +2
Divine Favor: +3
Total: +35

And that's with only sacred, luck and morale bonuses on the attack roll.

And since the inquisitor only has to get his bow to a +3 to get through all DR that a +5 can get through, he can spend the remaining 2 levels of bonuses to add other fun stuff to it to do more damage.

His example was using destruction for judgements for the extra damage. With divine favor he would buffing for 4 rounds for short term bonuses. So +27? Average AC for a 20 CR mob is about 38. He could change his judgements.


David Haller wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:


Not sure your math. My math is, a 20th level Inquisitor get 3 shots a round base + rapid shot + haste. At most 5 shots a round. Even at self buffing to the max that still around 250 damage a round if they all hit. Your feat levels are low, your to hit is low. Can you post something with what feats you have and what your to hit would be like?

Manyshot adds an arrow to the first base shot, and I'm assuming divine power rather than haste for the "haste shot", because this should be without external buffs.

Also, with keen edge, you're threatening 10% of the time, which effectively adds 1.2 "shots" (0.6 of your arrows are "trippled" to 1.8, is one way to model it)... so in essence your per-arrow damage, sans bane, is being multiplied by 7.2, not 5, which would bring *your* calculation to 360.

Pretty close to my 354.

"Your feat levels are low, your to hit is low" - I don't know what this means? If you could clarify, I'd appreciate it (possibly your confused about my two posts, but one was based on my "actual" character (15th level), and the other was elevated to 20 to compare with a theorycrafted build. Possible confusion.)

10% of the time you do 3x damage = 5 shots + 5(0.1 *3xdamage) = 6.5, there is also a complication with manyshot that would decrease it a bit more.

A 20th level Inquisitor +15 to hit, deadly aim lowers it, most Inquisitor stuff gives bonuses to damage and not hit. Seeing what your to hit looks like to see the relevance of the damage.


David Haller wrote:

For an inquisitor? Well, assuming level 20 (even though, who plays level 20 characters?), there's the judgement of destruction (+9 with slayer), wrath (+3 morale), divine power (+6 luck), and bane (+2), so that's +20 from direct self-buffs.

He can cast GMW on his non-magical bow, making it +5. So we're at +25.

He can attack with Deadly Aim, for another +8 to damage, bringing us to +33/arrow, and I offset the attack penalty with heroism (self-buff) and attacking invisibly (greater invisilibility, a self-buff).

With a +40 Perception (+/- depending on wisdom and feats), he can plausibly be aware of enemies with enough notice to buff up for 3 rounds, enough to cast his 3 short-term buffs.

Obviously, this depends on spell selection, although it's hard to imagine an inquisitor forgoing those I've mentioned.

In any case, it can be fairly routine for an inquisitor to add +33 damage per shot, plus 4d6 from greater bane, so ~+47/arrow, not factoring in crits (doubled in frequency courtesy of keen edge, of course); at 20th level, factoring in threat probabilities, damage output is in the neighborhood of 354/round. Build does have clustered shots, of course, important given no special materials or DR-bypassing judgements in-use.

Again, this is assuming no magic items - mundane items only.

Not sure your math. My math is, a 20th level Inquisitor get 3 shots a round base + rapid shot + haste. At most 5 shots a round. Even at self buffing to the max that still around 250 damage a round if they all hit. Your feat levels are low, your to hit is low. Can you post something with what feats you have and what your to hit would be like?


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I like the lack of massive power curve that is so prevalent in Pathfinder. A party a couple levels above and a monster is a cakewalk, couple levels below and it's difficult. 5 levels plus and minus and it's not a noticeable encounter or near impossible.

I like that casters can't be stacking all sorts of spells. Concentration makes the spells special and precious. Can't have fly and displacement on at the same time.

I like that melee get to move and attack throughout their turn. Melee get lots of interesting options and abilities depending on the path taken.

A simplified system with lots of fun and flexibility. Mobs become a threat throughout so it's easier to make encounters.

So far I like what they did.


Gwen Smith wrote:
Yuukale wrote:

Erm... has anyone ever tried to compare the damage of these things?

Ranger vs ZA Monk vs Sohei Monk vs Paladin ?

I've done level-by-level damage output comparisons of Fighter-based archer (no archetype) and Zen Archer Monk. Zen Archer does better around levels 1-3, they are close to even through level 8 or 9, but Fighter becomes unstoppable after that, topping out at 1.5 times as much damage as the Zen Archer. Weapon Master Fighter starts pulling ahead even earlier. This holds true even when you count cover and concealment; if you don't count cover or concealment, the Zen Archer is only ahead at level 1 (unless you play a human and pick up Rapid Shot at first level with your extra feat).

I haven't tested a Sohei, Ranger, or Paladin build. Rangers and Paladins have a lot of situational damage, so it's not a one-to-one comparison. How often those situations will come up is completely dependent on the group you play with and what you're playing. In a Wrath of the Righteous campaign, for example, the Paladin will shine, as will the Ranger with Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders). In a more varied environment like PFS, they won't be as devastating. (They are still effective, mind you, but their situational bonuses come up less often.)

For the Sohei build, I just don't see the benefit of it. It takes up to 6th level before it can really start being useful, and my games usually top out at 12th level. By the time the weapon training stuff kicks in, my characters are already halfway through their careers. If you have a longer character life, it might be worth it, but I need my characters to be effective from level 1 or 2.

I've looked at both and found ZA to be about the same at near every level. Put together a Fighter of any archetype at whatever level you choose. I'll put together a ZA at the same level with level appropriate gear. Up to ultimate magic and combat for books. I would like to see how they stack up by someone knowing what they are doing. Good to know new tricks. Let's assume a friendly caster has cast haste.


Amrel wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:
Amrel wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
That has nothing to do with the bane property. The spell can not change how the weapon works.

I think RAI you're totally right.

I just don't see how by RAW, you get around the spell specifically calling out "for all purposes" and places no restrictions on what "all purposes" applies to.

Could you not say that "I treat that enemy as <insert type here> for the purpose of wielding any weapon with the bane property" and have that be covered under the umbrella of "for all purposes" ?

The only thing that wouldn't make this work is that if it were somewhere defined that the types mentioned in favored enemies, are not in any way related to creature types, which is a hard argument to make I think.

Not sure your confusion. It specifically states "you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes."

How does this indicate favoured enemy = weapon enchantment bane. "All purposes" can only be in regards to "favored enemy".

Because its changing that creature's type to the type you specify for all purposes relating to you, and bane is based on creature type.

As I mentioned earlier, if the types mentioned under favored enemy are not compatible with general creature types then this doesnt work, but I havent heard anything that hints at that so far.

But it doesn't for all purposes relating to you. It says "type of favored enemy for all purposes". It is very clear that it is only for favoured enemy. The start even more clarifies the purpose: "With this spell you designate the target as your favored enemy for the remainder of its duration." I'm not sure how their could be any confusion. Maybe a little wishful thinking.


Amrel wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
That has nothing to do with the bane property. The spell can not change how the weapon works.

I think RAI you're totally right.

I just don't see how by RAW, you get around the spell specifically calling out "for all purposes" and places no restrictions on what "all purposes" applies to.

Could you not say that "I treat that enemy as <insert type here> for the purpose of wielding any weapon with the bane property" and have that be covered under the umbrella of "for all purposes" ?

The only thing that wouldn't make this work is that if it were somewhere defined that the types mentioned in favored enemies, are not in any way related to creature types, which is a hard argument to make I think.

Not sure your confusion. It specifically states "you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes."

How does this indicate favoured enemy = weapon enchantment bane. "All purposes" can only be in regards to "favored enemy".


Black Feather wrote:

ZA: Bracers of Armor +8 = 64K gp AND you don't get to wear Bracers of Archery. Now add your Wis bonus to that (call it +8). Your Dex won't get you quite as much but let's call it +3.

Ranger: Mithril Breastplate give you +6 for about 4200. You can get a +5 to it by spending another 25K. Call your Dex bonus +8. You've got exactly the same AC and you've spent less than half what a monk has. AND you get to wear Bracers of Archery.
______

DR isn't overcome unless you've got special materials or spend Ki every turn...or you took Clustered Shots (which other builds can get).

Seriously, have you even played, GM'd or been at the same table as people using these builds?

I mean, ZA is pretty strong but it's one among MANY and other archer builds can be just as good and sometimes better in many ways.

Seriously, how could you miss monk level based AC. Or the cheap Dex portion of the belt. Seriously mithril breastplate allows you 5 of your 8 dex only. Seriously Bracers of Archery give a competence bonus, something you get in an ioun stone. Sure bracers are slightly better but it's not like it's so amazingly better.

Lets go with a level 20 monk just for shiz and giggles. 10 +9 Wisdom (with books it would be +12) is what can be got, +5 monk, +5 dex, +1 for hat, +1 ioun stones, +8 for a bracers. +5 def, +5 nat, +1 dodge = 50. With 37 against touch attacks which is what threatens most.

Let's see a equally done up Ranger. 10 + 5 Dex (has 9 or 12 with books but only 5 apply) +1 for hat, +1 ioun, +11 for +5 mithril breastplate, +5 nat, +5 def, +1 dodge = 39 AC. So something hitting the ranger on a 5 will need a 16 to hit the monk. With only 23 vs touch.

A monk should have a better AC at every point except early levels.

Ki Focus Bow: DR is overcome as long as the monk has at least one ki point in his ki pool. No spending of Ki.


Black Feather wrote:

You need a lot more stats and equipment to make a ZA work than some other builds. Lots of this theorycraft depends on having just the right stats, just the right gear, etc.

The only stat you can really afford to drop is Cha, unless you just want to push damage as much as possible and don't care about other facets of your character...in which case you probably should have gone with a Ranger with Instant Enemy.

You can't drop Int, Con, or Dex because they help with skills, hp / Fort, and AC / Ref / skills respectively.

A ZA gets a good AC out of the box. They need a single stat that gives both to hit and AC and the best save. A monk doesn't need to spend as much on AC as a ranger does to get the same AC. In fact, AC of a ZA should be heads and shoulders above a rangers at nearly every level except maybe the first 3.

Static damage? With Deadly Aim, is pretty good, and with Weapon Specialization given at 6th level, it's pretty solid. Massive number of arrows, DR overcome with just being a monk for most things, can do clustered shot but it's not required.


Zen archer is very strong every level after 3, it just has so many options, massive numbers of shots. 4th level maybe 4 shots (2 shots + 1 ki shot, +1 summoners haste). To hit is +10 (+2/+2 + 1 Bow, +1 PBS, +1 WF, +5 Wis +1 haste, -1 DA). Damage with a +1 bow is 1d8+6 (+2 Deadly Aim and +1 point blank +2 Strength). AC getting to tank levels pretty quick - 25 at 4th naked(10, +4 Mage Armor, +2 barkskin (qinggong), +5 Wis, +1 monk, +2 Dex, +1 haste), allowing to focus more on bows and related equipment. Insane CMD's for grapples/trips etc. He can hang out in melee without taking attacks of opportunity at 3rd level. At 1st he gets a bonus of rolling 2 rolls if he starts to run out of ki points, burst and sustained damage is insane.

By level 20, AC's in the 50's, 8-9 attacks in the +30's attack bonuses with 2d10+high 20's damage. Even fighters can't compete, 6 arrows a round with haste. Somewhat higher attack bonus with lower damage. Plus many bonus monk ability he can do with his arrows that a fighter can't.

Rangers and paladins are OK. But a Zen Archer has just more options and more damage to most things.


Zen Archer Qinggong Monk. Massive damage, awesome saves, awesome defence. Few weaknesses, massive # of hits a round. Lots of special abilities to do more control etc...

To understand why it's so powerful compared to melee. Archers do all their attacks nearly every round, melee need to get into the mobs face and then to their full attack. The strongest/best melee are pouncers or archers. They just win, they don't need to get into melee range to get whacks, they don't have to deal with mobs taking a whack and moving somewhere else. Getting a full attack is pretty rare rounds for melees, especially as mobs get higher CR and get more and more abilities, with flight/teleport/dimension door's becomes so common.


The perfect man for the job is a Qinggong Hungry Ghost Monk. Properly built at 20th level he would eat the horde and ask for seconds. And the people could find a nice tavern to hang the sword and shield over the mantle.


Malusiocus wrote:
Glutton wrote:
Bha too many powerhouses here, if you really want to cripple yourself amusingly, play a Sensei archetype monk. Fiddle around with Quijjong and pick up some amusing buffs to hand out to your party.
Might look into that. I know we'll have a ninja in the party so maybe I should make a flanking buddy for him. I think I really wanna focus on RP flavor for this one due to the crazy stat rolls.

Demon spawn can show the massive stats. Demon raped a church priestess. Spawn would be pushed to the monastery to grown up without family and arduous training defining his self reliance and willpower. Demons are common at the time of Runelords even worshipped by some. The demon part can be his dark side feeding off the energy of every kill (hungry ghost). Oni-Spawn is eastern flavoured like the ninja and a little on the dark side. Monks are the best flank buddies (benefits strongly both), and both are quite stealthy making a good scout team.

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