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@Kerney How do you define mechanical cheese?
I tend to define it as using something RAW to go against RAI (so it tends to be open to interpretation)
In my example above, it is my opinion(!) that the Sohei was not intended to be faster at archery than the Zen Archer, and that it should not be allowed to use rapid and manyshot RAI. However, it may do so RAW as far as I can tell. Therefor, it is mechanical cheese, and therefore mechanically broken.
@Ssalarn Thank you for helping clear that up :)
I am a little confused... doesn't Hellcat Stealth say it can only be used in normal or bright light? Does that mean you can't use it in dim light or shadow? (the two places I would want to be as a rogue)
I didn't think you could, but does dim light allow you to hide while being observed normally?
I am a little confused.... how does over sized arms change the size of the weapon you are able to wield? Looking at the rules, to me it just says it removes the penalty for doing so. That would lead me to believe that I may only wield a large sized bastard sword (without the -2 penalty), not increase the size to huge....
Was there an FAQ/Dev input that addressed this, or did I miss a crazy discussion?
PS Who says fixed damage is better than MOAR DICE! Furious finish changes MOAR DICE! into static damage, therefore, MOAR DICE! is clearly superior.... especially when vital striking with gargantuan bastard swords for lots of maximized dice! (16d8=128) :p
The Zen Archer is definitely not broken.... the Bow wielding Sohei who can Flurry AND Many Shot AND Rapid Shot... is.
Ok assuming we get giant-hide armor (to be huge)(although unlike a heavy crossbow, it does not say you may fire it in one hand), and get Gravity bow. This would bring the base dice up to..... gargantuan size?! Which if it starts at 1d8->2d6->3d6->4d6?! which would mean the base damage dice with vital strike would be.... 16d6...for ONE bolt....32d6 for both.... furious finish = maximized for 192 damage... +8 for weapon training (made a mistake above, should be +4)... +24 for deadly aim... with the weapon enchantments adding double as well for 10+4d6(p)+8d6(e)...+22 for dead shot...+30 for int based damage (applies once).
New Grand total of 286+4d6(p)+8d6(e)= 296 to 358 = 328 average
Using the standard rules for inappropriate sized weapons you may certainly fire a large crossbow with 2 hands (at a -6 penalty), as you may fire (but not load) a medium heavy crossbow with 1 hand (at a -4).
That would in theory mean we could keep the same damage dice(?) and double one bolt, but would the vital strike tree and furious finish still work with both bolts?
What is the best single shot x-bow build you can come up with?
Rules:
1.Paizo only, no 3rd party stuff.
2.20 pnt buy.
3.All the way to lvl 20.
4.No gold limit.
5.To hit does not matter.
6.Criticals do not count unless you can guarantee them.
7.1 full round, 1 shot only.
As a starter, off the top of my head.
Large Heavy X-Bow (no way to reload it, but RAW ok to shoot) +2d8
Gravity Bow +1d8
Deadly Aim +12
Vital Strike Tree +9d8
Focused Shot +10 (assuming elf with 19 int +5 lvling +6 Item)
Magic Weapon +5
Elemental Enchants +4d6 (frost, flame, corrosive, shock)
Vicious Enchant +2d6
Kirin Style Feat Tree +20 (2xInt)
Weapon Training (19 lvls of Crossbowman fighter) +3
Furious Finish Feat (1 lvl Urban Barbarian) Max Dice
Devastating Strike feat +6
Greater Deadshot(Crossbowman Urban barb Elf 18 dex +6 item +4 Rage) +11
For a grand total of 163+2d6(Piercing)+4d6(Elemental)
Not bad off the top of the head eh?
But hopefully you can do better :-)
Sonofa....
Do gunslingers get to add Dex to damage?
@ BBT
You can wield a large sized Bastard sword in two hands.... assuming you have the EWP for it. (Just to clarify)
Ah, pardon the interjection, wouldn't a duel wielding kukri user with bleeding crit get quite a few stacked bleeds going in just a few rounds?
@ Tels- Just for clarification, :) according to the Core rule book, the progression is Light > One-Hand > Two-Hand. So, the end result is still the same, the starting value is just different. Best case light weapon is 1d6 damage. So progression is 1d6 > 1d8 > 2d6. Maximum penalty is still only -4 though, so the question still remains.
How do you get the full benifit of the Massive Weapons ability?
@ Trinite- AHA! Exactly what I was looking for! So RAW, Massive weapons does nothing. BUT, RAI it increases the size you may wield.
I think this maybe needs an Errata.
Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you for all the help. You have once again proven that the message boards are an invaluable resource. :)
PS Thanks for all the input! :)
So, I see the Errata disallows my initial idea. (RAW and apparently RAI) I can accept that. That still allows for cool TWF with greatswords. :)
But then what is Massive Weapons for? You still can't wield anything larger than a two handed weapon (implying a maximum penalty of -2). So what does the Massive Weapons ability even do? Remove a whopping -2 penalty by the time you are level 6 and then it is useless for the rest of its supposed benefit? In what situation could you use the full 6 reduction to a penalty?
I mean I suppose you could wield a Huge Light weapon getting the best possible damage from that of 2d6 bringing the penalty up to -4 (so great, Massive Weapons allows me at 9th level to use a greatsword non-proficiently) And that still doesn't give me the ability to use the final 2 reduction in penalty.
So, I see the Errata disallows my initial idea. (RAW and apparently RAI) I can accept that. That still allows for cool TWF with greatswords. :)
But then what is Massive Weapons for? You still can't wield anything larger than a two handed weapon (implying a maximum penalty of -2). So what does the Massive Weapons ability even do? Remove a whopping -2 penalty by the time you are level 6 and then it is useless for the rest of its supposed benefit? In what situation could you use the full 6 reduction to a penalty?
I mean I suppose you could wield a Huge Light weapon getting the best possible damage from that of 2d6 bringing the penalty up to -4 (so great, Massive Weapons allows me at 9th level to use a greatsword non-proficiently) And that still doesn't give me the ability to use the final 2 reduction in penalty.
Serisan wrote: Sorry, that trick is Rangers-Only and that is limited to Lead Blades usage. You can 2h the large Bastard Sword (since it's a 1h with EWP), Lead Blades, and then VS. You can even throw in an Enlarge Person on top, which gets you another size category. How is it Rangers only? What are Lead Blades? (what book are those in) Forgive my ignorance :) and ooooooooh enlarge person >:)
@ Tels- I believe RAW I can use a 2d8 Bastard sword in two hands (no finagling required) ;) according to the Core rulebook page 144. If I can wield a weapon one handed, I can wield the same weapon in two hands if it is one size bigger with a -2 penalty. The example they use is a medium one handed weapon being used as a two handed weapon for a small creature. I use a large one handed weapon for a two handed weapon for a medium creature. Therefore, 2d8 bastard sword in two hands with the exotic weapon proficiency. (and a -2 to the attack roll)
@ Red Dog- I see your point. However, if that were the case, the maximum penalty I could accrue is a -2 (greatsword/axe in one hand).... therefore the very next ability of the Titan Mauler (Massive Weapons) is rendered two-thirds useless... (at 18th level this ability provides a reduction in penalties of -6, coincidence?)
Since the core rulebook (p144) says that if the size of a weapon would increase it beyond two-handed then it cannot be wielded, and there is no counter to this found in the Titan Mauler rules, how do you interpret the usage of Massive Weapons?
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So, I just wanted to make sure this is good to go RAW.
If you take exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword, you can wield it in one hand. This means it is a 1d10 one handed weapon. So then I could increase its size and wield it in two hands. This makes it a 2d8 weapon with a -2 on attack. Then using the Titan mauler archtype's second level ability Jotungrip I can then wield this large bastard sword in one hand for an additional -2. Which then means I can increase the sword's size yet again for a 3d8 two handed sword that has a cumulative -6 penalty to hit. Then with Vital Strike, Imp VS, and Greater VS this weapon hits at a 12d8 correct?
To sum up...
Hand_____Feat/Ability_____Penalty______Damage
_2__________None_________None________1d10
_1______Exotic Wep Prof____None________1d10
_2______Size Increase_______-2_________2d8
_1________Jotungrip________-4_________2d8
_2______Size Increase_______-6_________3d8
_2_______Vital Srike_________-6_________6d8
_2_______Improved VS_______-6_________9d8
_2________Greater VS________-6_________12d8
Also fun things I am considering are feats (e.g. furious finish, etc.)
Rotolutundro wrote: Mr Dice Guy wrote: I must be blind! I cannot find the lower than 5th level stipulation anywhere. Can someone PLEASE tell me book and page number. I would greatly appreciate it, because I am going crazy. Core rulebook, pg.266. ....sonofa....
Thank you.
*Shaking head walking away in stupor* ....I never knew.... I just never knew.... all these years....
Small steel mirror anyone?
No joke, I always take one. It is super small (diminutive even?) so depending on the DM the enemy may take (effectively) a -12 on their perception to spot you as you peek around corners.
Real game application even faced a Medusa with it. I was not first level at the time, but you should have seen the look on the DM's face when I said, "OK, so I down the potion of invisibility and use my small steel mirror to sneak up on the Medusa." He didn't believe me until I showed him my character sheet...and my previous one... and the one before that. But after he saw it was written down on all of them he admitted defeat.
I had also cast truestrike on myself... ah the glories of one level of caster... and then used my mace two handed, rolled a nat 20, so the truestrike just negated my miss chance... at that point I had my eyes closed, after all, can't swing a mace two handed AND hold a small steel mirror, and I wasn't takin' any chances... and backed up the crit to almost...not quite... one shot the medusa.
One of my most epic moments in gaming... all due to a small steel mirror. :)
I must be blind! I cannot find the lower than 5th level stipulation anywhere. Can someone PLEASE tell me book and page number. I would greatly appreciate it, because I am going crazy.
Umm.... I may be confused. Where does it say detect evil doesn't work on 5th level and below? I always thought it worked on everything/everyone.
Add in the clumsy slave trait (from halflings of Golarian) and as long as you do non-lethal damage on the first hit, you can attempt to convince others it was an accident! And take a ten on the bluff check to do so if you are childlike!
I am a big fan of the Well-Prepared feat from the APG. To me it is quite handy in game, as well as being full of fun flavor for any halfling adventurer. Depending on where you want to go with the character, might I direct your attention to the Taunt, Pass for Human, and Go Unnoticed feats?
@ Pirate
Thank you for the links! I searched both adamantine and shuriken in the forums. Found the first one, but didn't find the second, thanks for pulling out the qoutes!
Well the reason I bring this up is for two reasons.
I love throwing and have yet to figure out a way to make a decent thrower. Shurikens are pretty rockin for this reason combined with a SA. But unlike any other thrown weapon, they may get destroyed when thrown and do lose their special abilities when thrown. And unlike every other ammunition type, there is no weapon that can imbue them with special enhancements when fired. One could use daggers, but then you need to enchant every one..... kind of expensive (my second reason for this thread).
The fighter is happy with a single enchanted weapon, the bowman is happy with a single enchanted weapon, but the thrower has to spend massive amounts of gold on multiple weapons (shurikens or normal thrown). I dunno, I realize that there are house rules and such, but I wish there was some love (aka way to be fiscally feasable) for throwers.
So... I realize that shurikens are ammo for almost all considerations, and I think that it is brilliant, except for one case. Adamantine. If it is the hardest substance in the game, and a shuriken is made of Adamantine, shouldn't it survive hitting a fleshy (heck, even armored) apponent? If it misses, sure 50% chance I lost it. But if I hit something, the solid metal adamantine hunk of death is destroyed? Just pondering and wanted others opinions.
ZappoHisBane wrote: ...you're not allowed to put ranks in until you have a means of actually flying? I may have missed it, but where is this rule found?
Thats the way I see it.
This may help.
This post (although the title suggests otherwise) goes deep into the reach of weapons and threatened squares towards the bottom of the page.
Reference Step up with a reach weapon
It covers RAW, RAI, and options to use. Personally I believe this thread to cover any and all questions regarding reach and threatening. I used it when this question first plagued my thoughts and have never had any other questions; very valid points were raised, discussed and resolved.
No worries. :-)
Thought that might be the case, but I just wanted to make sure and clarify before confusion ran rampant.
-Cheers
Elven Blades wrote: 7th level spell for a wand is usually 13th level caster... Aren't wands limited to 4th level spells?
(p. 491 core rules... in the staff section...wierd right?)
Ok so, Looking for a Paladin archer build. No 3rd Party books, 25 point buy. Just looking for a general idea of where to go with it as I have not played a paladin before, but thought an archer might be kinda nifty.
It seems that the paladin is similar to the monk in that multiclassing or prestige classes seem not very good. Am I wrong?
The campaign is in a slightly updated Rappan Athuk (no spoilers please), but I assume there are lots of evil things.
The rest of the party consists of a melee rogue/ranger, magus, and a battle cleric.
So far:
Elf with the Lightbringer Alternate racial trait.
STR 12
DEX 17
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 15
Looking at taking PBS, Prec Shot, Imp Prec Shot, Manyshot and Rapid shot.
Any other feats recommended?
Is stabbing shot worth it?
Any Archtypes I should consider?
Think I should switch up my stats any?
Thanks All :-)
@ Pirate- You sir, are an animal! Thank you so much!
@ Dragonchess -Touche!
1 level of arcane, for the truestrike, the rest martial. I won't mind caster levels otherwise, but my point is to hit in melee, not be a spell slinger. (I love casting and ranged, but I have done in a lot lately and want to do something different, variety ya' know?)
Pathfinder only products, no third party. (So really just Core and APG)
25 pnt buy.
No monster PC races.
I am trying to find the largest single hit average damage. The truestrike will take care of any to hit chance, and usually to confirm crits, but the chance to crit and resulting damage should be calculated as well.
No mounts as dungeon crawling is pretty standard/favored within this group.
Jes checkin' ;-)
And woohoo heavy armor prof!
Well the casting per day is nice, but a specialist bonded wizard comes pretty close.... so either one would work for me, just depends on the character background/personality.
Well I have slightly alterior motives. The theory is that I would have (when really needed) a true strike up. That would grant me a decent boost to hit and confirm crit, soooo.... that is why I vetoed the "to hit" being a factor and still wanted the crit chance to be included. Although kudos to the brilliant minds for using the autothreat feature and autoconfirm. :-)
(Although I wouldn't be able to use the autoconfirm ability with 1 level of caster, a +20 usually nets you the crit as well)
The OP wrote: ...general strategy so far against living enemies would be for me to get close, blast them with negative energy, and then flay them with the chain alongside my party's tanks. Really quickly, um... I think you need to take the selective channeling feat in order to not fry your tank buddies... that's of course assuming you mind collateral damage (some clerics don't). :-)
OOOOOooooo... I like the way you use fumble/crit decks. The way we currently use them is if you fumble, you get a card, however if you have weapon focus and fumble you get two and pick the one you want. As for the crit, you may draw as many cards as the crit modifier -1 and can choose between them. For example if I am wielding a scythe and crit I draw 3 cards and can choose between them.
But I like your way better :-)
+1 to the elven curve blade. But if you are going brutish beatsticky rogue and must spend the feat to become proficient anyway.... may I interest you in a large bastard sword.... 2d8 damage at a -2 :-) with the feat you may use it one hand, so a large one you can use two handed :-)
NICE! :-)
OK, wait..... what is 20% vs 50% vs 100% concealment?
(looking at the Wind and Lightning Stance Feats)
Was there an errata that changed the wording, or has anyone posted this before?
Because there is a huge difference between 50% concealment and a 50% miss chance.
IMHO if it is concealment I should be able to hide if I double move and have the lightning stance feat. If it is purely a miss chance, I cannot.
So, did I miss something?
Please forgive my ignorance, I don't quite understand. So even though the feat states 50% concealment you get 50% miss chance (the equivilant of 100% concealment)?
True, I do agree and understand miss chance due to the blur or displacement. Is that what lightning stance is supposed to do? I understand if you are moving at mach speeds, then you get a miss chance, but some folk are sticklers and would argue that it only provides you concealment. And others would use it to make stealth checks to HIPS after moving.
PS Mr. Dork, would you like me to repost this elsewhere? I do not want to intrude on the original topic.
ummm.... I dont think the duelist can use a scimitar for his abilities. "...light or one-handed piercing weapon...." Might I suggest rapier? I don't know what pirahna strike is, or what weapon you can use for it though. :-(
Hope I helped :-)
Thread jack?
If total (100%)concealment provides a 50% miss chance, and unspecified concealment provides 20% miss chance (Both on p197 Core Rules), then what does 20% concealment vs. ranged attacks and 50% concealment provide as a miss chance? (looking at wind and lightning stance, feats section)
IMHO, you can't see someone (aka total concealment) they sure as crap can knife you in the back for SA.
I do enjoy a good ninja. To me there are 3 categories of ninja studies.
Stealth
Magic
Melee
Now, these three items can occur in varying degrees to create different types of ninja.
For example a ninja with a masters of butt whoopin(melee) and a minor in magic with no stealth knowledge could be Ninja Gaiden.
A ninja with a Doctorate of stealth and no melee or magic could be Tenchu.
A ninja with a major in magic and double minor in melee and stealth could be a Naruto.
All three kill people effectively, all three are ninja, but all have slightly different philosophies of "execution".
Just some random thoughts to think about. :-)
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