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See, I really like the Golarion take on goblins, but I prefer the old 3.5 take on hobgoblins. Someone else suggested it on the boards first, but I'm not sure if, in MY Golarion, goblins and hobgoblins are related anymore. I think humans just lump them together due to hobgoblins' tendency to enslave goblins, but hobgoblins are clearly superior stock (and their heads are way smaller). I always list hobgoblins as #1 most likely monstrous humanoid race to form a functioning nation. Also most likely to for mercenary companies that work for nations like Cheliax.

Fun mod to GM but I had a player Witch slumber him and that's pretty much all she wrote. :(

I'm #36.

Where to place giants in a taxonomy came up recently. In my thinking (not Golarion canon), at some point in prehistory there were pre-human cavemen, probably "Neanderthals." climate shifts, ice age begins. Some migrate south, become modern humans. Some head into deep caves and weather the ice age underground, becoming dwarves. And some bulk up and tough out the ice age cold, becoming giants, hill giants specifically. Now, among dwarves and giants there is an oddly parallel tendency toward elemental worship. Some venerate fire and are gifted with becoming fire giants and azir. Others venerate ice and become frost giant and frost dwarves. A few worship the earth, becoming stone giants and some type of rock dwarves. Homo sapien, Homo subterraneus, and homo gigantus are all closely related.

On another branch of the hominid tree are the elves - olvo sylvanus. Where humans evolved from temprate plains primates, elves come from a northern forest primate. I like to think of halflings as elflings, prairie elves. They pick up a lot of the speak-with-burrowing-mammals type traits formerly associated with gnomes and like in burrow warrens a la hobbits. And orcs come from a fierce mountain primate. To me, this explains why half-orcs and half-lives can exist - not too far removed - and half-dwarves or half- giants could exist, but might also be so close as to just blend, forming a continuous bridge between dwarves, humans, and giants.

The elemental genesis also explains cloud and storm giants, although I'm personally not a huge fan of them, or the proliferation of giant subtypes. Trolls are gigantic, to me, but not "giants.". Gnomes keep the new First World fairy connection, don't need to be part of the taxonomy because they're not native. But, to me, the First World is paralleled by the shadow plane or sometimes Mechanus, either of which could kick out gnome equivalents like dark folk or tinker gnomes.

Fly sounds good - you wouldn't necessarily start with ranks in that, but it'd be good as you progress as a wizard.

Knowledge skills too, probably planes or religion, as a wizard is going to already have arcana. Maybe history. I don't see a wizard spending on local or nobility.

Perception makes sense.

Maybe Linguistics. Not so much for the actual linguistics skills, but because it's an aditional language per point - that's potentially A LOT of new languages - pick up all the elemental and outside languages, dead languages, etc.

EDIT: Let me add Craft (alchemy) or any other Craft the wizard would need to craft magic items - jewelry, weapons, etc.

It is important to remember that homosexuality is not a modern invention. No man, in a medieval setting, would be conisdered to be a homosexual because many men of power might take another male to bed if he so desired. It was not uncommon for men of court or royalty to have their wives and lovers besides, be they men or women. A 'homosexual' man would indeed have a wife and probably many children but also have his male lover close at hand, living in his holdfast and likely a member of his court. These powerful men could get away with just about anything and they often did.

I guess this gets to the question of expectations. Are gay folk expecting to experience romantic relationships as a side deal from their child producing relationships, and do they see that as satisfying, or are they expecting to be with their romantic partner all the time (a more modern expectation). Actually, could ask the same for hetero marriages. Middle ages, not sure how many straight couples found romantic satisfaction in their marriages. But we never really talk about if most folk in the world are marrying for romantic loves or compelled to marry by family or circumstance.

RL my understanding is that lower classes mattered less so were freer to marry who they waned or be sexually open. A good reputation matters less when your on the bottom. But higher society has stricter rules and more choreographed roles. Marry at your station or above, etc. Romantic desires matter little. I could see formalized roles for gays like lady's best friend, maybe lesbians as a guys' guy who has secret knoledge of women. But homosexuals loni g to be with romantic interests are not different from heterosexuals longing to be with romantic interests. It's Jane Austin meets the Tudors!

I guess the test of positioning as being more important than romantic or even sexual preference would be if a parent would ever set up a straight kid with a gay partner for social advancement? Seems like Julia did this with both of her kids in Rome a couple of times. Actually that show was a pretty good example of all being fair game in love and politics.

WERay, I'd love to see what you've come up with, if there's a way to share some of it.

Also, don't confine yourselves to what we think of genetics today, with Darwin/Wallace evolution and Mendelian genetics. Maybe Lamarckian genetics (inheritance of acquired traits) works and leads to much faster rates of adaptation, or background magic levels work like radiation and speed the process, even guiding it in non-random ways. Exposure to fire magic leads to fire-prone DNA, like sorcerous blooodlines for whole species! Or the gods continue tinkering with evolution, guiding the development of certain species. That's one reason why WERay's taxonomy would be interesting - if gods and magic affect evolution, what is considered to be a natural animal and a magical beast, or even an aberration might need some re-thinking.

Great post.

Some scenarios come with certain expectations. If marriages are done for political alliance, and children are to cement the power of bloodlines, then romance doesn't come into the picture and neither does sexual preference except as a problem to overcome. It doesn't matter if you are in love with a green half orc girl if your family wants you to marry an elven prince. The best you might expect is that your family arranges for your green half orc paramour to be your "lady in waiting" and your elven husband is understanding apart from that whole "siring an heir" business.

I expect there's an awful lot of this sort of thing going on in Taldor specifically because of the nobility and bloodlines business. If arranged marriages are the norm, they're going to be done in the usual opposite-sex patterns, and same-sex relationships are going to be the queen's "confidant" and the prince's "boon companion" and nobody is going to raise too many eyebrows because, say what you will about same-sex relationships, they don't engender any inconvenient bastards unless there's serious magic involved.

I'm over reading about Paizo's motives or whether homosexuality belongs in fantasy RPGs or not. I'd love, however, to discuss how it is dealt with in a medieval fantasy world that it probably less hostile than our own world was/is.

Hetero marriages as heir producers is a still going to be very important, unless heirs are frequently chosen through adoption or selection, as the Romans often did. Would gay relationships then be open secrets of child-producing hetero married homosexuals, or would there be a role for gay couples? The safe uncles you can trust because they have no ambition of putting their own child on the throne, much like eunuchs in Imperial China. Or would a certain number of homosexual folk have biological kids just to stay in game, and then pursue their actual love interests?

Would a fantasy medieval society expect gay men to be whatever they consider "manly" to be, or would they have some of the same feminine stereotypes as found today? Same with lesbians? Expected to be as feminine as other women are expected to be, or are they surrogate men, raping and pillaging with the other raiders? Might be a moot point in a world where gender roles seem to be pretty weak.

Just wanted to chime in with another vote for it's a neat trick to pinpoint the invisible's square, but attacker will still have 50% miss chance and invisible guy will still have the Stealth bonus (although he would probably have to re-Stealth after the splash).

from the PRD Glossary section:
"Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature's location.

An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment."

I pass just playing around, building a pantheon, and you know what occurred to me? Want to make homosexuality really okay in a culture? [Sorry if this has already come up in the thread] Make two of your gods gay! It really struck me that two of the Dragon Empire goddesses were lovers, although, a la the Greeks and other real-world cultures, it's not clear weather they are long-term lovers, or just have occasional flings. But what if you actually had a pair of same-sex gods? And not the god of gay-love I and the god of gay-love II, but like the god of farming and the god of banking or something (I tried to avoid god of crafting, god of blacksmiths, god of sailors, or anything else possibly stereotypical just to make them as non-niche as possible). And don't make them Ernie-and-Burt housemates or friends-with-benefits, make them a married couple. If you have gay married gods, it's pretty damn hard for a faith to say it's not okay for it's followers to do the same.

Again, as with anything, to each their own level of comfort, but it struck me that this might be the ultimate fantasy genre symbol of it being a non-issue.

was this it?

Yup, that's half of it. Unfortunately, it doesn't match the Paizo cover as much as it did in my memory!

I can't remember the name of the book, but the female rider and her mount are remind me not of the Burroughs' Mars books but of this Venus book I had floating around as a kid. Same pulpy style, but Venus was lush and much more female. Seems to me she was riding on a tiger.

EDIT: Never mind. Venus/Tiger seems to be Frazetta's cover for Burroughs' Escape on Venus. Multilegged mount seems to be Llana of Cathol, also by Burroughs, or maybe Thuvia, Maid of Mars. Anyway, regardless of it source, great homage.

All fair points. I just NEVER see anyone use metamagic, except in the form of rods, not in the 3 Pathfinder home campaigns I've played/GM'ed, or ever in PFS. Nor have I seen much use of Spellcraft beyond identifying spells, but even then, it's just for curiosity sake - no one EVER counterspells.

BTW- I wasn't suggesting that they no longer require feats to learn, just that they possibly use Spellcraft to cast rather than a higher spell slot. (Note: I guess that would mean they'd all need to spontaneously addable as well. Hmmm. Maybe just that... they still take up a higher spell slot, but you don't have to memorize them in advance; instead, make a Spellcraft check at the time of casting to be able to metamagic-ize an existing spell. You'd have to loose a higher slotted spell, but Druids and Clerics have that choice all the time as is. Anyway, just more thinking out loud...)

@fictionfan, if you come back to this thread, just curious, how high IS your 12th level's Spellcraft?

Would that work? Instead of a +1 level metamagic, you have to make a, say, DC 20 Spellcraft check to modify your spell. Maybe DC 25 for +2 level and DC 30 for +3 level?

I don't play caster that often and am just starting to play with metamagic, but I'd like to find a better way of involving Spellcraft, especially in the actual casting of spells.

Bump and a small cry for attention...

Parry already exists as a Dualist ability:

Parry (Ex): At 2nd level, a duelist learns to parry the attacks of other creatures, causing them to miss. Whenever the duelist takes a full attack action with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, she can elect not to take one of her attacks. At any time before her next turn, she can attempt to parry an attack against her or an adjacent ally as an immediate action. To parry the attack, the duelist makes an attack roll, using the same bonuses as the attack she chose to forego during her previous action. If her attack roll is greater than the roll of the attacking creature, the attack automatically misses. For each size category that the attacking creature is larger than the duelist, the duelist takes a –4 penalty on her attack roll. The duelist also takes a –4 penalty when attempting to parry an attack made against an adjacent ally. The duelist must declare the use of this ability after the attack is announced, but before the roll is made.

It's along the lines of many of the suggestions. Might be easier to just generalize something that already exists in the rules. 'Course, you'd need to give dualists something nice and shiny to replace it; +4 to Parry rolls, like how Mobility gives you +4 to AoO AC?

Interesting. I've wondered about adding Wis mod before, as Wis reflects perception and instincts as well as good judgement. Why Int?

ACP penalty makes sense.

I've seen talk about throwing in a little weapon speed from 1E by assigning different weapons Initiative penalties - dagger = quick, no penalty; great sword = slow, -2 to Initiative.

I don't see which die you use as that important. A smaller die will just bunch everyone closer together, but they'll still go one at a time. Actually, a smaller time will reduce the variability and a high base Initiative will almost always go first, the slow guy will rarely get lucky and roll high enough to outweigh base Initiative. If that's what you're looking for, go for it. Personally, I wouldn't want to see an all-the-time static Initiative, too predictable.

I also saw someone talk about adding "stances" to combat. One to increase damage at the cost of AC, one was increase AC at the cost of damage (basically Power Attack/Combat Expertise for everyone), and one was to increase to hit by sacrificing initiative, and finally to gain initiative by swinging wildly and sacrificing to hit. If you're tightening up the range of initiatives, small changes like that might appeal to your players.

Cinematic would be that the BBG wants to corrupt them. Frustrate them, force them to make bad/worse choices about which innocents to save, rub in their faces that they can't do anything to him, then let them stumble across a tool than might provide them hope... only it has strings attached. [probably to railroady for an RPG]

Another manipulation... what if one BBG is using the PCs to eliminate another BBG, a rival. He provides them with help, tips, etc., but occasional clues point to their benefactor not being what they imagine. Eventually they are confronted by "the good guys."

The Radiant. Also, too much of a good thing is bad. After a certain point, excess positive energy ought to cause burns or rapid aging, or overload the bodies of the regularly living in some way. Positive energy could also animate things that are not normally living; maybe an aura of Animate Object or something.

I've seen Grappled described in a variety of ways since the PfRPG came out - by players and developers alike - as everything from mid-way into a wrestle to just grabbed. I was trying to clarify this in my head and came up with the idea of separating Grappled into two, more clearly delineated conditions - Grabbed and Grappled. Grabbed would just fit into the existing progression, meaning it would take 3 steps rather that 2 to pin someone. First they're Grabbed, then Grappled, then Pinned.

Thoughts? Reactions?

Reverse engineering from Grappled and Pinned, I get:

Grabbed: A grabbed creature is forcibly held by a creature, trap, or effect. Grabbed creatures cannot move freely but may take a 5' step as long as they remain adjacent to creature, trap or effect that has grabbed them. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty to Dexterity and an additional –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grab/grapple. A creatures may be able to take actions that requires two hands to perform, depending on where they have been grabbed. A grabbed character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grabbed creatures can make attacks of opportunity.

So it is totally just a lesser form of Grappled. What do you think? Would it add anything to the Grapple-Pin chain to have a 3rd step? First I grab you, then I get you into a grapple, then I pin you?

Couple of questions if I move forward with this:

1) Two-handed actions- Is it worth it, and how would I, distinguish between a Grab that grabs a leg or the back of a shirt, etc. vs. a Grab that grabs an arm and makes two-handed actions impossible (like Grapple/Pin)? Would the attacked have to target an arm? Would there be a penalty for doing so because it's a specific target? [Called Shots say targeting an arm is -2, but Sunder and Disarm don't apply any penalty for targeting specific objects or weapons.]

2) Reach- Not even entirely sure how this interacts with regular Grapple. If a critter has reach and it grapples you from afar, are you grappled where you stood, or are you automatically moved toward the critter? If I let Grabbed creatures take a 5' step that has to be adjacent to the grabber, and the grabber was using reach, the 5' step could logically be anywhere adjacent to the location on the grid where he was Grabbed, right? [I'm thinking of a long tentacle reaching out an grabbing an arm - you can flail around where you were standing.]

Just want to check something with y'all... With Disarm and Sunder, there's no adjustment depending on the size of the object/weapon the attacker is trying to Disarm or Sunder, right? A tiny object is no harder (or easier) to disarm than a large one.

Likewise, it is no harder to Disarm something held in two hands than it is something held in one hand, right?

(99% sure that I already know the answers to these question, but I just wanted to confirm. Also, if anyone has any fiddly little house rules on this, I like to hear them. Thanks.)

I liked skill tricks, at first, but then, like others, felt they actually limited what everyone without the skill trick could do. Besides, skill tricks are pretty clearly identifiable as a WotC creation, so those are probably out.

What I do like A LOT is more along the lines of 101 New Skill Uses, which basically assign s skill tricks and other wild skill uses high DCs, so everyone can try it, but pretty much, without a decent amount of ranks, you ain't pullin' it off.

Overall, I'd love this book. More depth on what you can do with skills, more complex skill tests (aka- skill challenges), alternative systems for Perception and Stealth, more feats for substituting one base ability score for another, more ways to use skills to affect combat and spell casting, a discussion of social combat (why do I get to decide that my character doesn't believe an NPC even tough his Bluff is high and my Sense Motive is low, when I CAN"T just say he missed with his dagger, even though his Attack is high and my AC is low?), magic items that affect skill checks (+1 thieves' tools, anyone?), etc.

Seems to me that if your bonded item is a two-handed object, and you basically can't cast without it, then you're probably able to carry out the somatic components of your spells while holding your item - basically you've learned to make said item part of your normal spell casting.

What, exactly, that means in game terms, I'm not sure. You're not going to cast and melded attack in the same round. But you apparently must "wield" your quarter staff with two hands. It seems like either simply holding in one hand (and not actually using it as a weapon so no worries about attack penalties) would be enough, or maybe the specific two-hands-occupied-but-that's-ok-cause-it's-a-bonded-item situation supersedes the general rule that wizards must have a hand free.

We plan to sell bases separately. We haven't announced that yet because we haven't figured out the pricing, but yeah, there will be more bases available for those who want them.

Different sizes and colors of bases would be awesome.

Thanks James! So would Minata be where the Philippines' equivalent might be?

I lived in the Philippines for a while ... Minata totally reminds me of Mindanao, the big Muslim island in the southern Phil, kind of Indonesian but with it's own unique flavor.

On a certain level, I get what he's saying too. Players might want a safe homeland to adventure out from - a Shire, for example. Or a Sendaria, from the Belgariad books. Basically vanilla. It's the rest of the world that is exciting and dangerous. That's how the PC's start out innocent farmboys and farmgirls and discover the wider world. But what often happens, is that when they return later, with their eyes open to the dangers of the world, they realize that their safe little homeland may not have been as quiet and safe as they thought. Their innocent eyes just didn't see the dangers or machinations at higher levels of society. I think that, too, can be achieved in most places in Golarion (okay, maybe not in the Worldwound) - there are quiet little corners of every country, even Cheliax, where being the innkeeper's daughter is mostly the same as being the innkeeper's daughter everywhere else. Maybe a few odd goings on, rumors, but not that much strange or out of the ordinary. Until the day the when the dark stranger shows up... [cue Balgariad, Wheel of Time, Shannara, Hobbit, Treasure Island... they all start the same way].

I've often thought about a campaign world where PC's start out as representatives of a shining empire that has brought peace and justice to most of the known world. Yet, slowly, as they venture out to the territories and colonies, they realize that all is not as they were led to believe. Not all colonial governors are as idealistic as the Queen, not all orcs are savages in need of pacification, etc. When, at some point, they return home to bring these injustices to light, not everyone at home is totally interested either. Whatever, you get the point. There is a place for safe in a campaign world. And safe doesn't have to mean safe forever or as-safe-as-it-seems.

Finally, just remember, it's your world. Mine the books for ideas, ignore the parts you don't like and change the rest to suit your needs. If you feel there's too much conflict, eliminate some of it. Make Taldor or Andora better places than they are written to be.

Settled law. I agree with you, but this was argued and decided by the powers that be years ago. At least with the Vanity we can now get access to Slight of Hands for spare change at all.

Also, I think it has less to do with Slight of Hand as a form of Perform and (what I use it for) ... Slight of Hand as pickpocketing. I assume my Rogue earns his Day Job by picking up small unattended items, rifling through pockets, etc.

Finally, even thought the Corebook calls out Slight of Hand = Perform, it does open up a slipper slope in PFS. Can I do enough Acrobatics tricks to earn money? Maybe I can work as an Appraiser? A Linguistics translator? They wanted to reward folks who put a few ranks into role playing/character building skills than many people ignore - Craft/Perform/Profession.

Male, 41, no military service (but did 2 years of Peace Corps). Started playing Basic/Expert and AD&D in the summer before 6th grade (1982). Played all the TSR games - Boot Hill, Top Secret, Gamma World, Star Frontiers, mostly the latter two. Played A LOT in middle school, less in high school, D&D crowed was too geeky for my taste in college. Skipped 2E. Picked up 3.0 Players Handbook while in the Peace Corps 'cause I could goof around with it w/o electricity (unlike computer games). Liked 3.5, loved Dragon magazine, stuck with Paizo through alpha and beta and am now pretty devoted to Pathfinder/PFS.

Still pondering the Pathfinder Dogma idea. What about...

1) 15-point buy, all purchased scores between 9 and 15 (so racially modified scores between 7 and 17).

2) Only buy magic items from the "always available" list and chronicles, i.e., no magic shops.

3) At least 1 skill point per level spent on Craft/Profession/Knowledge.

Some ideas I had a while back...

*Canned food! Come on, what's pulpier than heroes sitting around a campfire eating a can of beans! Or finding a tin can strewn goblin lair? Our thought was a tin pot or can with some kind of low-grade Preserve spell. It would work on clay pots and glass jars as well, but those tend to be too fragile for adventures.

*Arcane imaging boxes. You can look through and preserve the image you see on alchemically treated panes of glass. Just image, the heroes slay a dragon and then pose next to the body as the dwarf runs to set up the imager. Poof! The moment is recorded for posterity. The spell would probably be some low-level illusion spell. One could look at the pane of glass with the naked eye to see the image again, or mount it in a frame. Or, slip it into another box, arcane demonstrators, that would use a magical light source to project the image onto a wall or other surface. Note that if these imagers record still images, some could probably be created using a higher-level illusion to actually record moving images!

*Broadsending. Every home in the kingdom (or at least in the capital city) might have a broadsending receiver in the form of a small statue of the king (or hierarch or some other notable). At certain times of the day, the king's daily message could be heard emanating from the statue. Words of wisdom, proclamations, update on the ongoing war, whatever propaganda the king wishes. Built into every statue is a receiving rod attuned the large and expensive broadsending emitter in the king's audience chamber. The king need only speak into his sending staff and his subjects can hear his voice. While not emanating the king, it might emanate patriotic music, news from across the kingdom, or even performances by the finest bards in the land.

Now, for those with a bit more money, broadsending receivers would be available with a slot for removable receiving rods or even multiple slots for multiple receiving rods. Receiving rods might be also be given away by churches or to off-duty guard and militia members, they might be sold by aspiring colleges so folks can listen in on lectures or by theaters so those who can't attend the performances can still be entertained. Unfortunately, while the broadsending magic is strong, its range is fairly short, maybe a few miles at best. This can be extended somewhat building a tall emitting tower of metal and enchanted crystal, but still, the wonders of broadsending are still off limits to those who live anywhere but in the most cosmopolitan cities.

*Tracking maps. Either knowingly or surreptitiously, a person or an object could be marked with a tracking glyph (some form of a locate spell). Until the mark is removed with dispel magic, the location of that person/object could be followed on a magical tracking map. Now, tracking maps cannot draw maps of unknown areas, but as long as the subject travels in areas know to the tracking map, its location could be shown (mundane maps of all areas to be “known” by the tracking map would be consumed in the creating of the tracking map). Also, if the original maps were of different scales, say a continent and a country and a city, then the tracking map could zoom in on that area, up to the magnification of the most detailed map. Imagine maps of armies that literally traveled across the map so generals in far off camps could follow their progress, or merchants following the progress of shipments across the continent, or of assassins knowing the location of their target at all times.

Now imagine further, ships with tracking glyphs and broadsending receivers sailing into a busy, foggy harbor in the dark of night. The harbormaster’s tower has a large tracking map on the wall showing the location of all registered ships within 10 miles. Using a sending staff attuned to the receiving rods in the ships, he warns this one to avoid the rocks and that one that it is too close to another ship. He directs each one to an open dock or has them form a queue a wait.

*Sound capturing devices. A traveling professor holds in front of her an enchanted hoop crisscrossed with fine, crystalline wires. They vibrate and hum softly as the sounds of the bugbear war chant strike the net. A moment later an electrum sphere, the size of a child’s fist and covered in arcane symbols, drops from a short tube at her waist. Sound spheres (sorry for the constant alliteration) store sounds “caught” by the capturing device. They can be played back later by inserting the spheres in a player, something that looks like a circular muffin-baking pan, connected to one or more emanators (usually rods or spheres, but they can be any shape; see broadsending). When a particular sound sphere is to be played, a tiny enchanted needle penetrates the sphere and releases the sound. The quality of the sphere determined the length of the sound that can be captured and the number of times it can be released before it begins to fade. Some sound spheres are rumored to be able to hold two sounds, one releasable by any player and a second playable only on players keyed to certain individuals or by persons knowing special passwords. Despite being made of metal, sound spheres are quite delicate and can rupture if dropped, releasing all of the stored sound at once in a very load burst.

Arcane sound players and image projectors can be combined for rather entertaining shows and have been used by some enthusiastic archeologists to “recreate” their adventures for students and potential financial backers. Sound players have recently been connected to broadsending emitters, allowing pre-recorded messages and by-gone performances to be heard by the public.

[I’m not a great writer and that’s about the limit of my ability to write in character, but we had several more, less-well-developed ideas …]

*Arcane current. I never liked the idea that a magical effect can be made permanent with just one casting. Continual flame is a great spell, but does it really work FOREVER?! I like the Iron Kingdoms idea that magic items and effects need to be recharged once in a while, which could potentially lead to the equivalent of arcane batteries or power sources with wires leading to continuously operating magic items and effects [I also liked the lightning catchers in “Stardust”].

*Arcane current leads to arcane telegraphs!

*If you’ve got flying boats, airships, zeppelins and flying mounts, you’ve got everything you need for the Blitz! Now you need super powerful magical searchlights with beams of detect invisibility, etc. to spot them. You might also want flares, rockets and levitating exploding runes to keep them at bay.

*Magically canned heat, canned chill, canned wind, etc. Water purification and poison removal swizzle sticks.

*Bandages that cure minor wounds and splints that mend bone.

IOf course, I'll always remember some of the cool Monster Manual illustrations, but after time the nostalgia becomes just that, nostalgia... moving aside for new memories.

Remember the drawing of supposedly "real" creatures like dogmen from our own history. Just 'cause some sage drew Demogorgon as a baboon-headed, tentacl-armed menace does not mean it actually looks like that. I'd like to see the day when Golarion is old/mature enough to have false legends and untrue fairy tales. Not every monster in the world needs to be "real" and people can believe in boogeymen even in a fantasy world. Lots of old D&D cannon can serve this function.

Having a cap on the DC necessary to resist a PC's spells might be one aspect. If my charm person and dominate person virtually always succeed, that can break a scenario.

But how could you cap that yourself? If the goal is, basically, gimp yourself a little. Maybe back to stats - if your key stat is a little lower, your DCs aren't going to be as high.

But I GM a Kingmaker campaign where players rolled 3d6 for stats (their idea, not mine) and ended up with low stats. They're still breaking the game with certain spells and crazy ACs, saves, hits, etc. from magic items. Maybe that's part of it; don't buy stat boost items or cloaks of resistance, or any of the "Big 5."

I forget what's it's called, but there this loose society amongst movie directors, "Dogma" or something, where they all agree to certain, self-imposed limits, things like only using natural light or not using digital effects to eliminate people's blemishes. Nobody makes them do it, but certain directors feels it creates a better movie, so they follow the guidelines and put a stamp at the end of their movie for those who care.

I would be more than happy to join a society with the Pathfinder Society that followed a more strict code of character creation, something with some limits to avoid min/max and encourage character development.

What it would involve, in my mind, is coming up with a list norms, kind of like what the OP did, only maybe run it through a democratic vetting process, and then having those interested sign on - it could be as simple as a thread here in the PFS forums with the req's at the top and people signing up below. You might even have some regular PFS characters and a special hurt-me-bad "Dogma" character. You could just write "Dogma" or whatever the society-within-a-society is called on top of the character sheet, or somebody could come up with a little logo to paste on. Eventually, Dogma players could look for other Dogma players and try to put together Dogma tables. All characters would be legit by PFS rules, so other folks at the table shouldn't complain, but, yes, it would be better for like-minded folks to play together. It would be neat if there were certain in-game benefits to being a Dogma player (like PA boons), but ultimately, it would probably be just braggin' rights - "Oh yeah? I beat the mod with a Dogma character you min/max shlub."

After reading a lot of people saying PFS is too easy, there might actually be enough folks to start something like this on a small scale. I'd be game.

Even so, you take a company like McDonalds, who can easily afford such a venture.

That's the catch, though, isn't it? No farmer has 9K gp to start up such a business. And adventurers are probably the closest thing to venture capitalists in the land. Dark Ages, Middle Ages, Renaissance, whenever you want to place your fantasy RPG, there just are large corporations floating around who can sock year's worth of income into a project that will eventually turn a profit.

Eberron kind of had this with the Dragonmarked houses, basically big families, who, through magic, had cornered certain economic níches. But Golarion, no way.

Also, are we assuming an unlimited supply of magic items for those with the money to buy them? That's certainly one model, but unless you've got a portion of your population devoted to industrial magic production (again, see Eberron), how many regeneration farmers are you going to see?

After the first layer, I generally think of numbers as being for reference only. For me, the Abyss isn't a linear ladder with a top and a bottom. It is a multi-dimensional maelstorm with planes constantly shifting and stretching. This seems to me to fit with the chaotic nature of the Abyss; an orderly ladder of planes is too lawful.

Any layer might connect to any other layer via gates and portals, although the most stable are always to the 1st layer, which is why it acts as a gateway to the Abyss. And some gateways might be open for a while and then close for a while, depending on if the two layers are "close" or "far." What we, two-maybe-three-dimensional-thinkers, think of as "deep" might be better thought of as "remote." Places where the REALLY strange demons and Qlippoth reside are more remote, farther from the hub, less connected to the other layers, but not "under" another layer.

I really like the way Eberron handled the planar structure, like an orrery or a solar system, with some planes getting closer in ascension and having more affect on the world, and others waning and having less impact. Demongorgon's layer might be receding now as his influence on the multiverse wanes, but who knows (given the chaotic nature of the Abyss) when it will draw again near to the Prime.

Anyway, sorry, that probably doesn't contribute to your question one bit as far as creating a systematic way of assigning layers to demonlords. But for me, there probably shouldn't be anything systematic about the Abyss.

Helpful tricks to reduce the chances of a successful teleport (note that mundane spying will greatly help the spellcaster against this kind of defence, so the rogue become valuable):

1) don't camp near recognizable landmark.

2) make your camps as uniform as possible. If your army is camped in 4 different camps, all made in the same pattern, all with the same kind of tents and so on, it is very hard to recognize one camp from the other.

Can you Bluff a scyer? Put up an illusion or something so they think you're in one place when you're really in another? What would the effect of this be on teleportation attempts?

Personally, I'd question why a charge with a lance should benefit from power attack at all, since you don't actually move the lance while charging. In fact, you very specifically hold the lance still for the attack itself (although you move it to position as you close). So I fail to see how it even makes sense to swing harder for more damage.

One could always use the horse's Str modifier for damage, given that it is actually the horse that is charging, not the rider...

If someone sees someone else go invisible (or hide in plain sight or whatever), can the observer ready an action to attack Mr. Invisible when he becomes visible again, most likely when he attacks and breaks invisibility?

Readied actions go off before the triggering action...

But you're flat-footed against unseen opponents (unless you Perceive them). Can you take readied actions vs. someone you're flat-footed against? You can't take AoOs (unless you have Combat Reflexes), but what about readied actions?

I guess, more generally, what I'm wondering is if you can beat someone's readied action?

They feel that to allow the GM to do this would facilitate GM cheating.

I am unfamiliar with this concept. Seriously. They (and maybe you) seem to have the idea that Pathfinder/any-RPG is an us-vs.-them activity. If they want to play something where they can try to "beat" the GM, tell them to go play a computer game. The job of the GM in Pathfinder is to tell a story and create an experience that is challenging yet fun for the players. Nobody ought to be trying to "beat" anyone, not the players beating the GM or the GM beating the players. Fun, F-U-N. It doesn't sound like you're having any of it. Being a GM is tough enough with preping and legitimate rules disagreements. If you're not getting the respect and cooperation you deserve, a) ask one of them to take over GMing for a while, b) walk away and never look back, or c) pee in the soda when no one is around and then see "b" above.

Bottom line - It's a bummer to not have a group to play with. I've been "playing" RPG's for 25 years (wow!); sometimes I've just played 1-on-1 with a friend, sometimes I've just read books and invented characters for years on end, and right now I'm part of two great groups and I play PFS. But it's better to not have a group to play with then to force yourself to play with a bunch of a-holes.

Just curious, with this book we got spells for summoning each of the Daemons. Any chance we might see a blog or better a PDF extra with such spells for the first two books in the series for Devils and Demons? :)

+1. Call of Cthulhu does this. Each outsider is summoned with its own distinct spell, rather than a single spell that automatically increases with you. Means you have to learn to summon each creature. Way more flavorful.

I switched it to being limited to the witch's HD in terms of what it can affect. Otherwise it gives the fatigued condition.

This ability ruined the end of a book of one of the APs for my group.. it includes lots of trolls. It was just sad to see such a nice part of a scenario transform into a non-issue with no challenge whatsoever.

I did the same thing after having multiple bosses go down in one round.

Also, remember that ANY damage wakes victim, so 1) an ally can kick them. or 2) calculate out the full coup de grace - I did have one boss who survived the damage and made his Fort save.

Also, it's once per day per target. If your players are in a local area, and their witch becomes known for slumbering folks, as clever bad guy might get his own witch, have her slumber him in the morning, wake him up, and now he's immune for the day! (maybe a bit meta-game...)

I had kind of a formula worked out. Buildings basically fell into tiers: basic and cheap; medium; and more specialty and expensive.

At the lowest tier it was like 2 BP per advantage, so an Arena with +2 Econ, +3 Loyalty, +1 Stability = 6 advantages, but +1 Unrest, brought it back down to 5, x2 = 10 BP. Or a Shop with +1 Econ and +500 gp base value = 2 advantages, x2 = 4 BP.

Then at some point, it shifts to 3 BP per advantage, then to 4 or 5 BP per advantage (I don't remember the exact break-points). But, yeah, the big buildings are meant to be more expensive than just a like-size collection of smaller buildings. They are meant to be something for wealthy leaders to look forward to. That's partly where the Prestige comes in as well. I also tried to make sure there were several choices available at each price, so I juggled a little there, and a few, like the Aerie, I just made expensive 'cause, dude, flying mounts! That shouldn't come cheap! Same with access to magic items, that bumped buildings up, especially major items.

Also worth noting, the scale of my districts is a little different ...
City Districts: A number of districts make up a city. Small cities may occupy a single district while larger cities will usually be made up of several. Each district consists of 100 lots, arranged into twenty-five 2x2-lot blocks. Lots are separated by alleys, while blocks are separated by streets. Each district is bordered by four sides – each side representing the boundary of that district. A district boundary can represent a city wall, a river, a lake or ocean shore, a cliff, or merely the transition from one district into another. Each lot measures approximately 500’ x 500’ – which means that a city district is about 1 square mile in size.

My blocks are a little smaller each, so more of them fit in the same space. That's why some of my buildings are so much larger than normal; in the regular rules the biggest building is 2x2, but I have a couple of 2x4 and some 4x4, like the Place and the Fair Grounds.

Overall, I tried to balance cost with benefits and the point where players would be ready to build certain buildings (early game vs. later game).

I welcome your feedback, though. Are there any that seem totally out of line with their price?

Here is my complete building list. WARNING: It's long. I have a table that summarizes everything, but I can't post tables here, so I'll just post the building descriptions. They're pretty tight, I've gone over them several times, but there will almost certainly be some errors still. Here goes...

Building Types: Adding buildings to a city is one of the most efficient ways to enhance a kingdom’s statistics, as each block of buildings added to a city grants specific bonuses. Descriptions of each of type of building, as well as the bonuses it provides, are listed below. The building’s BP cost, its size if larger than 1 lot, and any prerequisite buildings that must be built first are listed in parentheses after its name. Unless otherwise stated, each building adds 100 gp to the city’s base value. The building’s benefit to the city and kingdom is listed last in italics. If the city has two or more buildings that reduce the cost of another type of building, the cost reductions do not stack. If a building affects Unrest, this effect is persistent; it continues to add to the Unrest for the life of the building.
Aerie (40 BP; must be adjacent to the outer perimeter of city): An elevated structure for housing and selling giant birds and other flying mounts. Economy +1, Loyalty +1, Stability +3; city base value +1,000 gp; allows armies to be equipped with Flying Mounts.
Agricultural College* (32 BP; 2x2 lot): An institution of higher learning that studies farming, animal husbandry and management of forests and fisheries. Economy +1, Stability +2; halves cost of Stockyards throughout the kingdom; allows Libraries to specialize in Knowledge (geography) and Knowledge (nature); increases production of all Pastures, Farms and Logging Camps in kingdom by 50%; limit 1 per kingdom.
Alchemist Lab (16 BP; must be adjacent to 1 House and Dump): The laboratory and home of a creator of potions, poisons, and alchemical items. Economy +1, Loyalty +1; city base value +1,000 gp; 2 minor magic items; armies can be equipped with potions CLW.
Arena (10 BP; 2x2 lot): A small stadium for competitions, sporting events and/or gladiatorial games. Unlike larger coliseums, arenas tend to be a bit seedy. Economy +2, Loyalty +3, Stability +1; Unrest +1.
Art School* (16 BP; 1x2 lot): Workshops and studios where the visual arts are taught to those with sufficient talent. Economy +1, Loyalty +2, Stability +2; 1 minor magic item; halves the cost of Monuments and Museums in the same district; limit 1 per district.
Bank (28 BP): A building for storing coins and other valuables, as well as conducting financial transactions. Economy +4; city base value +2,000 gp; allows 3 points of surplus Production to be converted to income per Bank per kingdom turn.
Bardic College* (40 BP; 2x2 lot): An institution of higher learning that teaches the performing arts. Economy +1, Loyalty +4, Stability +1; 2 minor magic items; halves cost of Theaters and Libraries in same district; allows Libraries to specialize in Knowledge (history) and Knowledge (nobility); +50% to Loyalty benefit of Festival Edicts; limit 1 per district.
Barracks (12 BP; 1x2 lot): A building to house city guards, militia and military forces. Stability +2; Defenses +2; Unrest 2; may raise an army size Medium or smaller; may hold up to 1 Medium army in reserve.
Black Market (36 BP; must be adjacent to Caravan Grounds, Gate in the City Wall, Market, Greater Market, Lesser Market, Pier or Watefront): A number of small shops selling secret, and usually illegal, wares. Economy +3; Unrest +2; city base value +1,000 gp; 2 minor magic items, 1 medium magic item, 1 major magic item.
Brewery (6 BP, 1x2 lot): A building for beer making, winemaking, or similar use. Economy +1, Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
Brothel (4 BP; must be adjacent to 1 Inn or Tavern): A place to pay for companionship of any sort. Economy +1, Loyalty +2; Unrest +1.
Caravan Grounds (12 BP; must be adjacent to a Gate in the City Walls or the outer perimeter of the city if city has no City Walls; 2x2 lot): A large open area where caravans can load and unload their merchandise. Often the site of impromptu bazaars as traders bring new and novel goods from far away places. Caravan grounds tend to be somewhat deserted between caravans. Economy +2, Stability +2; Unrest +1; city base value +1,000 gp; 1 minor magic item.
Carriage House (20 BP; must be adjacent to a Stable; 1x2 lots): As roads improve, so do the options for travel. A carriage house offers city residents a higher class of transportation than simple horseback. Economy +2, Stability +3; city base value +500 gp; doubles the Economy and Stability bonuses granted by Highways located between cities with Carriage Houses (for up to 8 hexes).
Caster’s Tower (32 BP): The home and laboratory for a spellcaster. Economy +1, Loyalty +1, Stability +1; city base value +1,000 gp; 2 minor magic items, 1 medium magic item; prerequisite for armies to be equipped with Magic Armor and Weapons.
Castle (56 BP + 1 BP/month; 2x2 lot): The home of the city’s leader and the heart of its defenses. Economy +2, Loyalty +4, Stability +4; Defenses +8; Prestige +1; Unrest 4; halves cost of Mansions and a Town Hall in same city; may hold up to 1 Large army in reserve; limit 1 per city.
Cathedral (64 BP + 1 BP/month; 2x2 lot): The focal point of a faith’s religious and spiritual leadership. Loyalty +5, Stability +3; Prestige +1; Unrest 4; city base value +1,000 gp; 3 minor magic items, 2 medium magic items, 1 major magic item; halves cost of Temples of the same faith in same city; +50% to Loyalty benefit of Festival Edicts; armies can be equipped with potions CLW, CMW & CSW; limit 1 per city.
Cistern (12 BP; city must be connected to an Aqueduct): Large tanks built beneath the city for storing clean water in case of a drought or siege, Cisterns do not occupy a city block because they are built underground. Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Defenses +2; Unrest 1; city base value +0 gp.
City Wall (10 BP per section): City walls do not occupy a city block; instead, each section of city wall fortifies one of a district’s four outer borders. Each section of city wall may include one gate. The gate is free if built at the same time as the rest of the wall, or costs 4 BP if added later. The inclusion of a Gate reduces the Defenses of that section by 1. A city wall cannot be built on a water border. Defenses +4 (per section); Unrest 1 (per section); city base value +0 gp; completion of 3 sections of City Walls allows armies to be equipped with Siege Weapons.
Coliseum (60 BP + 1 BP/month; 4x4 lot): A massive public stadium for competitions, team sporting events, horse races and/or gladiatorial games. If adjacent to water or if the city is connected to an aqueduct, the coliseum may even be flooded for naval demonstrations. Economy +3, Loyalty +4, Stability +3; Prestige +1; doubles Economic and Stability benefits of Promotion Edicts; limit 1 per city.
Courthouse (32 BP; 1x2 lot): As a kingdom grows, so does its body of laws and its need for an impartial court to mediate disputes between citizens and settle charges against citizens. Loyalty +3, Stability +4; Unrest -2, Kingdom Unrest -1; limit 1 per city.
Craftsman (6 BP; must be adjacent to 1 House): A shop front for a tradesman, such as a baker, butcher, candle maker, cooper, or rope maker. Economy +1, Stability +1; city base value +500 gp.
Drug Den (0 BP): Sometimes illicit drug dens spring up spontaneously in run-down neighborhoods, and other times, they are set up by criminal elements within a city; in either case, they soon prove to be nothing but trouble. Economy -1, Loyalty -1, Stability -1; Defenses -1; Unrest +2; city base value +0 gp.
Dump (2 BP; cannot be adjacent to Houses, Mansions, Noble Estates or Townhouses): A centralized place to dispose of refuse. Stability +1; city base value +50 gp; limit 1 per district.
Embassy (20 BP + 1 BP/month; your kingdom must have a Treaty with the other nation, 1x2 lot): The official residence of the ambassador from a foreign nation. The embassy is considered “foreign soil,” however, the exchange of ambassadors is mutual, and the maintenance of a foreign embassy in your kingdom assumes that you also maintain an embassy in that nation. But be aware – while diplomatically and economically positive, embassies can also serve as bases for espionage. Economy +3, Stability -1; Defenses -1.
Engineering College* (56 BP; 2x2 lot): An institution of higher learning that teaches engineering – mostly civil engineering, but also delving into such topics as metallurgy and clockworks. Economy +1, Loyalty +1, Stability +2; halves cost of Cisterns, City Walls, Paved Streets and Sewer Systems throughout the kingdom; allows Libraries to specialize in Knowledge (engineering); reduces the cost of Aqueducts, Roads and Highways by 1 BP per hex (minimum 1 BP, subtract before doubling cost for bridges); increases production of all mines in kingdom by 50%; limit 1 per kingdom.
Exotic Craftsman (16 BP; must be adjacent to 1 House): The workshop and home of an exotic craftsman, such as a creator of magic items, a tinker, a fireworks maker, or a glassblower. Economy +2, Loyalty +1, Stability +1; city base value +1,000 gp; 1 minor magic item.
Fairgrounds (20 BP; 4x4 lot): A large open space for festivals, fairs and, occasionally, grazing livestock. Economy +2, Loyalty +2, Stability +2; halves Consumption cost of Festival Edicts.
Foreign Quarter (40 BP; 4x4 lot): A diverse collection of houses, shops and offices whose residents hail from regions across Avistan and Casmaron, a foreign quarter serves as the first stop for many immigrants to the kingdom. Economy +2, Stability +2; Unrest +1; city base value +1,000 gp; 2 minor magic items, 1 medium magic item; halves Consumption cost of Promotion Edicts.
Gambling Hall (4 BP; must be adjacent to Inn or Tavern): A place where people can bet on games of chance or sporting events. A lot of fun, but things can sometimes get out of hand. Economy +2, Loyalty +1; Unrest +1.
Garrison (24 BP; 2x2 lot): A large building to house armies, train guards, and recruit militia. Loyalty +1, Stability +2; Defense +4; Unrest 2; halves cost of Barracks and Watchtowers in same city; may raise an army of any size; may hold up to 1 Huge army in reserve.
Government Offices (10 BP; must be adjacent to Courthouse, National Assembly or Town Hall): Growing cities and kingdoms require bureaucracies to manage the day-to-day affairs of the government. They do, however, tend to frustrate average citizens and sometimes fall victim to corruption. Economy +2, Stability +4; Unrest +1.
Grain Mill (8 BP; must be adjacent to water; cannot be adjacent to Houses, Mansions, Noble Estates or Townhouses, 1x2 lot): A building where grain is ground into flour. Mills are good for the economy, but also attract a wide variety of pests. Economy +3, Stability +1; Unrest +1; increases production by 25% for up to 8 hexes of Farms.
Granary (12 BP): A place to store grain and food, especially useful during winter and in times of war. Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Defenses +1; Unrest 1; all bonuses double in winter; allows 1 point of surplus Production to be converted to income per Granary per kingdom turn.
Graveyard (3 BP): A plot of land to honor and bury the dead. Loyalty +1, Stability +1; city base value +50 gp; limit 1 per district unless the district has 1 or more Temples, in which case there may be 1 more Graveyard than there are Temples in a district.
Guildhall (28 BP; must be adjacent to 2 Craftsmen; 1x2 lot): A large building that serves as headquarters for a guild or similar organization. Economy +2, Loyalty +2, Stability +3; city base value +500 gp; halves cost of Breweries, Craftsmen, Exotic Craftsmen, Smiths in same district.
Herbalist (8 BP; must be adjacent to 1 House and Park): The workshop and home of a gardener, healer, poisoner, or creator of potions. Loyalty +1, Stability +1; city base value +500 gp; 1 minor magic item; armies can be equipped with potions CLW.
Hospital* (12 BP; must be adjacent to 2 Houses): A place where the sick are treated. May include an asylum for the insane. Loyalty +2, Stability +3; Unrest -1; doubles the recovery rate for armies housed in the same district.
Houses (3 BP): A number of mid sized, single-family homes. Houses serve as prerequisites for many other buildings. The first House built during any Improvement Phase does not count against the total number of buildings that can be built during that phase. Stability +1; Unrest 1; city base value +50 gp.
Inn (12 BP; must be adjacent to 1 House): A place for visitors to spend the night. Economy +2, Loyalty +1, Stability +2; city base value +500 gp.
Jail (10 BP; must be adjacent to Barracks, Courthouse or Garrison): A fortified structure for housing criminals. Loyalty +1, Stability +3; Unrest 2; city base value +50 gp; limit 1 per district.
Library* (10 BP): A large building containing books and scrolls, often presided over by a sage or other scholar. Libraries usually have general collections, but, depending on what institutions of higher learning are found in the city, may also specialize in one specific area of Knowledge; any library may specialize in Knowledge (local) without the support of an academy or college. Economy +1, Loyalty +1, Stability +2; +2 on Knowledge/Research checks made at general libraries, +4 at specialized libraries in the appropriate area, with no bonuses in other areas.
Lumber Mill (8 BP; must be adjacent to water; cannot be adjacent to Houses, Mansions, Noble Estates or Townhouses, 1x2 lot): A building used to cut logs into lumber. Lumber mills are good for the economy, but also produce quite a bit of pollution. Economy +3, Stability +1; Unrest +1; increases production by 25% for up to 8 Logging Camps.
Luxury Shop (28 BP; must be adjacent to 2 Mansions or 1 Noble Estate): A shop that specializes in expensive wares and luxuries. Economy +2; city base value +1,000 gp; 2 minor magic items.
Magic Academy* (64 BP; 2x2 lot): An institution of higher learning that teaches the arcane arts. Economy +2, Loyalty +1, Stability +2; city base value +1,000 gp; 3 minor magic items, 2 medium magic items, 1 major magic item; halves cost of Caster’s Towers, Libraries and Magic Shops in same district; allows Libraries to specialize in Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (the planes); limit 1 per district.
Magic Shop (48 BP; must be adjacent to 2 Houses): A shop that specializes in magic items and spells. Economy +3, Loyalty +1, Stability +1; city base value +2,000 gp; 4 minor magic items, 2 medium magic items, 1 major magic item.
Mansion (10 BP): A single large house for a wealthy family and its servants. Stability +3.
Market (36 BP; must be adjacent to 2 Houses; 1x2 lot): An open area for mercantile pursuits, traveling merchants, and bargain hunters. Economy +3, Stability +2; city base value +3,000 gp; 2 minor magic items; halves cost of adjacent Craftsmen and Shops.
Market, Greater (60 BP; must be adjacent to 3 Houses; 2x2 lot): A grand bazaar, selling goods and wares from across the land. Though good for the economy, large markets like this often attract thieves. Economy +5, Stability +3; Unrest +1; city base value +5,000 gp; 3 minor magic items, 2 medium magic items; halves cost of adjacent Alchemist Labs, Craftsmen, Exotic Craftsmen, Luxury Shops, Magic Shops, Shops.
Market, Lesser (12 BP; must be adjacent to 1 House; district must already have Greater Market or Market): A smaller, more specialized market – a fish market or antiques market, for example. Economy +3; city base value +1,000 gp; 1 minor magic item; halves cost of adjacent Craftsmen and Shops.
Menagerie* (16 BP; 1x2 lot): A large, outdoor park featuring a variety of wild animals in cages for the delight of the public. Economy +1, Loyalty +3; creatures donated to the Menagerie’s collection increase the Menagerie’s Prestige bonus: +1 per creature 3-9 HD, +2 per creature 10 HD and above, plus an additional +1 if a creature is particularly famous in the kingdom (max. Prestige bonus = +6).
Mill Pond (2 BP): An artificial pond used to provide water for mills, factories and other industrial buildings. City base value +0 gp; counts as “water” for adjacent Grain Mills, Lumber Mills and Smelters.
Mint (36 BP + 2 BP/month; must be adjacent to Town Hall): A government-run facility where coins are produced, each bearing a design unique to the kingdom. Economy +2, Loyalty +3, Stability +3; Prestige +2; limit 1 per kingdom.
Monument (8 BP): A monument can be an open square with a statue of a city hero, a tall bell tower, a large tomb, or simply a plaza with a beloved fountain. Loyalty +3; Unrest 1; city base value +50 gp.
Museum* (16 BP; 1x2 lot): A place to exhibit art, historical artifacts and other national treasures. Economy +1, Loyalty +2, Stability +2; items donated to the Museum’s collection increase the Museum’s Prestige bonus: +1 per medium magic item or mundane item worth between 8,000 gp and 27,999 gp, +2 per major magic item or mundane item worth more than 28,000 gp, plus an additional +1 if an item is of particular historical significance to the kingdom (max. Prestige bonus = +6).
National Assembly (72 BP; capital city only; 4x4 lot): A kingdom may choose to create a national assembly, such as a Parliament or Senate. It may be an advisory body, designed to give the king or queen input and feedback, or it may be a true legislature, creating laws that govern the kingdom. It may be composed of noble lords who hold hereditary positions, or it may be a representative body, made up of elected citizens from all walks of life. Loyalty +5, Stability +5; Kingdom Unrest -3; halves cost of Government Offices throughout the kingdom; limit 1 per kingdom (capital city only).
Noble Estate (20 BP; 2x2 lot): A sprawling manor with luxurious grounds that houses a noble family. Nice, but too many noble estates may cause resentment among the rest of the populace. Economy +1, Loyalty +1, Stability +4; Unrest +1; halves cost of Exotic Craftsmen and Luxury Shops in same district.
Orphanage (10 BP; must be adjacent to 1 House): A home for children without parents, providing them with a place to live other than on the streets. Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest -1; city base value +50 gp.
Palace (100 BP + 5 BP/month; 4x4 lot): For when a castle simply isn’t enough. A lavish structure surrounded by parks and gardens, consisting of hundreds of rooms – throne rooms and audience chambers, banquet halls and ballrooms, theaters and art galleries, all intended to impress and inspire awe. But this level of splendor cannot exist without breeding some resentment. Economy +2, Loyalty +5, Stability +5; Defenses +4; Prestige +5; Unrest +2; city base value +1,000 gp; halves cost of Noble Estates in same city; may hold up to 1 Medium army in reserve; limit 1 per city, 2 per kingdom (a summer palace and a winter palace).
Park (3 BP): A plot of land set aside for its natural beauty. Loyalty +1; Unrest 1; city base value +50 gp.
Pathfinder Lodge (16 BP; the kingdom must encompass a number of known adventure sites – GM’s discretion): Depending on whom you ask, the Pathfinders are either a group of brave explorers or a cabal of thieves and scoundrels. What cannot be denied is that trouble seems to follow in the wake. Stability -1; Prestige +1; city base value +1,000 gp; 2 minor magic items, 1 medium magic item; allows Libraries to specialize in Knowledge (dungeoneering); limit 1 per kingdom.
Paved Streets (24 BP per city district): Paved city streets do not occupy a particular city block – rather, they are an improvement of the existing dirt streets found throughout a city district. Dirt streets can become foul and impassible as the population of a city grows; paving them with cobblestones can be a boon to both the economy and the quality of life of the citizens of a district. Economy +3, Loyalty +2, Stability +3; city base value +0 gp.
Pier (12 BP; must be adjacent to water): A dock for ships, handling both cargo and passengers, but sometimes attracting a rough crowd. Economy +2, Stability +2; Unrest +1; city base value +1,000 gp; 1 minor magic item; doubles the Economy and Stability bonuses granted by rivers located between cities with Piers (for up to 8 hexes) if the entire length of river between cities is navigable.
Public Baths (10 BP; city must be connected to an Aqueduct and district must have Sewer System; 1x2 lot): A building for public bathing and relaxation. Loyalty +3, Stability +2.
Ruins (0 BP): Bad things happen to cities – natural disasters, wars, riots, etc. – and sometimes buildings are destroyed. If the destroyed buildings are not repaired or replaced within 1 year of their destruction, they become Ruins – an embarrassing blight on the face of any city. Whatever the cost of the original buildings, Ruins cost 4 BP to clear, and must be cleared (requiring 1 Built New Buildings slot and 1 month) before penalties can be removed and new buildings can be built. Loyalty -1; Prestige -1; Unrest +1; city base value +0 gp.
Sewer System (20 BP per city district): A sewer system does not occupy any city blocks as it is constructed under a city district. Without sewers, rainwater, garbage and human filth mostly just end up in the streets. Constructing a sewer system improves drainage, public health and the overall appeal of a city. It does, however, provide thieves and other outcasts with a refuge as well. Loyalty +4, Stability +2; Unrest +1; city base value +0 gp; half price if built at the same time as Paved Streets, half again as much (i.e., 30 BP) if built after Paved Streets.
Shanties (0 BP): Shanties and slums often spring up when there isn’t enough housing available for city residents. Stability -1; Unrest +2; city base value +0 gp; demolishing Shanties results in a permanent +2 Unrest penalty unless it is replaced with Houses or Tenements.
Shipyard* (24 BP; must be adjacent to water; 2x2 lot): Facilities for building and repairing ships and large boats. Economy +3, Stability +2; city base value +1,000 gp; allows the construction Ships, which may transport armies across water.
Shops (4 BP; must be adjacent to 1 House): A collection of small shops, including a general store. Economy +1; city base value +500 gp.
Shrine (8 BP): A small shrine or similar holy site. Loyalty +2; Unrest 1; 1 minor magic item.
Slaughterhouse (6 BP; must be adjacent to Stockyard; cannot be adjacent to Houses, Mansions, Noble Estates or Townhouses, 1x2 lot): A building where animals, usually cattle and other livestock, are killed and butchered. Between the living and dead animals, the surrounding area smells terrible. Economy +2, Stability +1; Unrest +1; increases production by 25% for up to 8 hexes of pastureland.
Smelter (8 BP; must be adjacent to water; cannot be adjacent to Houses, Mansions, Noble Estates or Townhouses, 1x2 lot): A building used to separate metal from ore. Smelters are good for the economy, but also produce quite a bit of pollution. Economy +3, Stability +1; Unrest +1; increases production by 25% for up to 8 Mines.
Smith (8 BP): An armor smith, blacksmith, or weapon smith. Economy +1, Stability +1; city base value +500 gp; prerequisite for armies to be equipped with Heavy Armor, Masterwork Armor and Weapons, Magic Armor and Weapons, and Tower Shields.
Stable (10 BP; must be adjacent to Inn): A structure for housing and selling horses and other mounts. Economy +1, Stability +2; city base value +500 gp; doubles the Economy and Stability bonuses granted by Roads located between cities with Stables (for up to 8 hexes); allows armies to be equipped with Mounts.
Stockyard (6 BP; cannot be adjacent to Houses, Mansions, Noble Estates or Townhouses; 2x2 lot): An area for holding and selling livestock, usually cattle and other large farm animals, but sometimes including more exotic beasts like elephants or reindeer. Economy +2; halves cost of Slaughterhouses and Tanneries in same district; armies can be equipped with Heavy Lifters.
Tannery (4 BP; cannot be adjacent to Houses, Mansions, Noble Estates or Townhouses): A business that prepares hides and leather. The mixture of urine, chemicals and animals smells terrible. Economy +1, Stability +1; Unrest +1; prerequisite for armies to be equipped with Heavy, Masterwork and Magic Armor, and Tower Shields.
Tavern (6 BP; must be adjacent to 1 House): An eatery or drinking establishment. Economy +1, Loyalty +1; city base value +500 gp.
Temple (32 BP; 1x2 lot): A large place of worship dedicated to a deity. Loyalty +4, Stability +2; Unrest 2; city base value +500 gp; 2 minor magic items, 1 medium magic item; allows 1 additional Graveyard to be built per Temple; allows Libraries to specialize in Knowledge (the planes) and Knowledge (religion); armies can be equipped with potions CLW & CMW.
Tenements (1 BP): A large number of low rent, high-density housing units. Tenements count as Houses for the purpose of fulfilling building requirements and, like a House, the first Tenement built during any Improvement Phase does not count against the total number of buildings that can be built during the phase, but building too many Tenements can increase a kingdom’s Unrest quickly. Unrest +1; city base value +0 gp.
Theater* (24 BP; 1x2 lot): A venue for providing entertainment such as plays, operas, concerts, and the like. Economy +2, Loyalty +3, Stability +2; halves cost of Brothels, Gambling Houses, Inns and Taverns in same district.
Town Hall (28 BP; 1x2 lot): A public venue for town meetings and repository for town records. Economy +2, Loyalty +3, Stability +4; halves cost of Granaries and Jails in same city; limit 1 per city.
Townhouses (6 BP): A block of tightly-packed, multi-story, single-family homes. Townhouses count as Houses for the purpose of fulfilling building requirements. Stability +2; Unrest 1.
University* (72 BP; 4x4 lot): An institution of higher learning dedicated to a variety of academic fields. Universities can be sources of great pride and centers of innovation in a kingdom, but can also serve as hotbeds for radical new ideas. Economy +2, Loyalty +3, Stability +3; Unrest +1; +3 to all Knowledge/Research checks made on campus; halves cost of Agricultural Colleges, Art Schools, Bardic Colleges, Engineering Colleges, Magic Academies, Museums and War Colleges in same city; limit 1 per city.
War College* (36 BP; 2x2 lot): An institution of higher learning that teaches leadership and the art of war. Loyalty +2, Stability +3; halves cost of Forts and Garrisons throughout the kingdom; kingdom’s army commanders and officers automatically receive the Leadership feat; limit 1 per kingdom.
Warehouse (10 BP; must be adjacent to Caravan Grounds, Gate in the City Wall, Pier or Waterfront, or the outer perimeter of the city if the city has no City Walls; district must have at least 3 Shops, including Magic Shops and Luxury Shops, although they need not be adjacent to the Warehouse; 1x2 lot): Large, simple buildings used by merchants to store goods and merchandise. Economy +3, Stability +1; city base value +500 gp.
Watchtower (6 BP): A tall structure that serves as a guard post and landmark. Stability +1; Defenses +1; Unrest 1; city base value +50 gp; may hold up to 1 Small army in reserve.
Waterfront (80 BP; must be adjacent to water; 2x4 lot): A port for arrival and departure when traveling by river, and a center of commerce. More river traffic, however, also means more rowdy sailors. Waterfronts count as Piers for the purpose of doubling river bonuses between cities with Piers. Economy +5, Stability +3; Unrest +2; city base value +5,000 gp; 4 minor magic items, 2 medium magic items; halves cost of Black Markets, Markets, Greater Markets, Lesser Markets and Shipyards in same city.
Workhouse (6 BP; must be adjacent to 2 Shanties and/or Tenements, or 1 Orphanage; 1x2 lots): A place where the poor can be put to work and made useful… whether they like it or not. Economy +3, Loyalty -1; Unrest -1.

Note: Some of this stuff is my own invention, but a lot of it comes from (besides the actual Paizo material) Jon Brazer Enterprises Book of the River Nations - great book! - and from a couple issues of issues of Wayfinder. Honestly, I've processed and reprocesses so much of it, I'm not sure what's original and what's reprinted. But check out both those sources for more great ideas.

The Iroquios League is always good for a Native American nation.

Check out Northern Crown at Paizo or their homepage.

The Years of Rice and Salt, by Kim Stanely Robinson is a great alternative timeline book where 99% of Europe died in the Plague so China and the Muslim States explore and dominate the world. Good stuff on a North America that met the West (and East) later in it's evolution.

Part of the way I determined this was based on the old adage, "You learn something new every day." While it was originally based on a different XP scale (3.5's), at one point, I worked out the math for characters basically gaining 1XP/day. Each week they would gain an additional amount equal to their Wisdom modifier. (Averaging their mental ability scores and deriving a modifier from that would probably also work.)

I've always used 1 XP/day as well. It just seems like a good "standard" for regular, work-a-day folks. Basically, non-adventurer types earn 1 XP per day for doing their thing - a farmer farming, a baker baking, a mom momming, whatever. Most people in the world are going to put all their energy (and skills and feats = Skill Focus) into getting better at doing what they do to earn a living so they can live better and provide for their families. 1 XP means "1 day of growth as a person."

I've never done the stat bonus per week Laithorn suggests, but it's not a bad idea. But with just straight 1 XP/day, working 6 days/week, means the average person earns about 313 XP/year. At that rate, one would hit 2nd level in a little over 6 years of work (or other dedicated activity), 3rd level after about 16 years, 4th level after about 28.5 years (meaning most modern people are about 4th level when they retire from a career), and 5th level after 50 years of work. Seems reasonable to me.

That's for humans. I'd be inclined to let non-humans with longer life-spans keep going. Yeah, elves will reach much higher levels after 500 years, but that seems right to me as well. (You're oldest elf would rack up 219,000 XP at this rate, not quite 12th level). Maybe a slower rate, like working 4 or 5 days/week because they're not in any big hurry. Humans have shorter lives, and might not gain as much XP in a life, but assuming they spend their bonus feat on Skill Focus, they're better at what they do than a non-human of the same level. We get better quicker and they need the longer time and higher levels to match our skill levels.

And all that is for non-adventurers. Once you start solving puzzles and by-passing traps and killin' monsters, you get more than a day's worth of experience each day. Single-handedly killing a kobold is worth like 100 day's life experience to your average bloke. Adventurers are on a MUCH accelerated growth chart. It seems odd to grow 10 levels in a year, but that is certainly heroic and on-par with fantasy movies and literature. If you want PCs to age more, include episodes of down time. Unless the story demands it, don't assume adventures happen the day after each other and give them a year off in between. That's cinematic too. Years ago, they defeated the bad guy, but now he's back!!

It gets a little wonky when you ask why a farmer killing a kobold gets to be a better farmer, but that's where you just have to accept the abstraction. Maybe facing death has given her a new clarity of purpose in life or deep knowledge of self that allows her to be better at her profession. Whatever. It DOES mean that Warriors who are more likely to engage in quasi-adventurer activities like fighting ARE going to advance faster than other NPCs. That's fine too. Burn bright, burn quick - they're also more likely to die younger.

To the OP, make 'em whatever age you want that fits with the story you're telling. No progression is too quick if it advances your story, but, yeah, an 18-year-old 10th-level paladin IS going to be a bit of a phenomenon. If that messes up your story, make him 30.

Prestige is kinda' like hero points for a kingdom. Mostly it is gained by building and maintaining certain kinds of high-status buildings in cities, but it can also be earned through Events or when a kingdom's armies win battles. The battles part is still a work-in-progress as I work on integrating the mass combat rules with the kingdom building rules, but here's what I've got on buildings...

Prestige: Some buildings, usually large and/or fancy buildings add Prestige to a city in addition to any other benefits. Prestige helps a kingdom look good and deal successfully with its neighbors, particularly when negotiating Treaties. But these buildings are expensive to maintain and cannot exist without some level of continued government support. Therefore, each Prestige-granting building also carries with it an ongoing upkeep cost, listed along with its initial construction cost, equal to the amount of Prestige it grants (usually 1 BP/month). This upkeep must be paid each month as part of the kingdom’s Consumption.

Examples of buildings that automatically earn Prestige but also require monthly upkeep costs:
• Castle
• Cathedral
• Coliseum
• Embassy
• Pathfinder Lodge
• Mint
• Palace

Royal Endowments: Another way the leadership of a kingdom can gain Prestige with leaders from other kingdoms is to endow certain high-status activities – basically, to pay for them out of royal coffers. These activities usually involve fostering the arts and institutions of higher learning, but could also include building hospitals to care for the sick and injured or menageries and museums to show off trophies. To endow an activity, the leaders sponsor the building where the activity takes place at the cost of 1 BP/month (this cost will be included in the kingdom’s Consumption). In exchange, the kingdom gains 1 point of Prestige per royal endowment. Buildings that may be endowed are marked on the list below with an asterisk. The leaders of a kingdom may not endow more than one of each type of eligible building in a kingdom.

Examples of buildings that can be endowed for Prestige:
• Agricultural College
• Art School
• Bardic College
• Engineering College
• Hospital
• Library
• Magic Academy
• Menagerie
• Museum
• Shipyard
• Theater
• University
• War College

They would become Royal buildings, like the Royal War College.

As time goes on, I'll probably try to think of more things a kingdom can do with Prestige, maybe spend it like hero points for a reroll on a kingdom roll or something.

Thanks for looking at the Treaty ideas. As always, I'd appreciate any feedback you can give. Once we actually try it, I'll post the players' reaction.

I know the focus of this thread is Stealth, but a lot of people have brought up the inter-connectedness of Stealth and Perception, especially in Pathfinder, where Perception isn't just sight. This may stray a bit toward Pathfinder 2.0, but what about integrating the rules for Perception and light a little better?

One thing I often forget when dealing with Stealth/Perception are the distance penalties, -1 on the check (or +1 to the DC) per 10'. That can make a BIG difference. Plus, someone recently brought up the question of max perception distances. There doesn't seem to be a "you can only see 1000'" rule, just increasing Perception penalties until you just can't make the check. A few realism issues (you can't, technically, Perceive something a mile away), but it works fine as a rule and is consistent with other rules. That helps me remember. But then you throw in lighting conditions, and the radii of different light sources, and different kinds of vision, like low-light. I'd like to suggest that all this be rolled into the existing Perception distance penalty.

So RAW, in normal light, the Perception penalty is -1/10'.
What if, in dim light, it becomes -2/10'?
And in darkness, -4/10'?

Figuring out the penalty would be like calculating movement in difficult terrain, you'd just count squares and conditions in each square from perceiver to target.

Other effects would still apply - 20% miss chance in dim light, 50% in darkness, effectively blind in darkness - but this would better model how other senses still work in poor light, and would be consistent with the existing increasing Perception penalties for distance.

There is some hints of this in the current RAW, but it would mostly be connecting the dots between point A and point C and bringing two different-but-related rules into an actual system.

In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat ... and takes a –4 penalty on Perception checks that rely on sight ...

This modification would eliminate the need for "that rely on sight" and avoid those arguments - for most of us, sight is primary and we're handicapped without it. Perception is a global skill, so you can make Perception w/o sight, but, wow, not so well.

This system also accommodates low-light vision. Just like someone who has the ability to cross difficult terrain counts movement differently than someone who doesn't, someone with low-light vision in dim light takes the normal -1/10' penalty. Gone would be the confusing "sees twice as far in dim light" language, they'd just make a perception check like anyone, only with much less penalty.

Similarly, someone with darkvision would take the normal -1/10' penalty in darkness.

Other feats and monster abilities could be described in terms of Perception penalties - Far Vision: Daytime distance penalties to Perception are halved.

Looking at this, I realize that it has gone way beyond a "clarification." 2.0 is more like it. But, personally, I like it when rules work together, and when rules for one system mirror rules for another system - it makes them easier to remember and more likely that I won't forget them. Perception begins to mirror movement. Difficult terrain => difficult perception conditions (dim light, fog, rain, etc.) with cumulative Perception penalties; very difficult terrain => very difficult perception conditions (darkness, obscuring mist, etc.) with big cumulative Perception penalties. There is even already something akin to a 5' step for Perception in RAW. It shows up in a couple of places, for example ...

Fog: Whether in the form of a low-lying cloud or a mist rising from the ground, fog obscures all sight beyond 5 feet, including darkvision.

So maybe you can always (usually) Perceive within 5', or at least you get one more chance. This is where it comes back to Stealth. I'm fine with a guy making one Stealth check to run across a field, but dang, I'd like one last chance to notice him when he gets 5' away from me and tries to stab me in the back. Almost like an AoO. Perception of Opportunity. If you move 5' from Hidden, you're fine and your previous Stealth covers it. But if you move more than 5' to get into my bubble, I get the opportunity to notice you again. Anyway, a whole new can of worms there. But does that offer a useful angle on the question of which actions require a new Stealth check, ask - "Would it provoke an AoO?"

Anyway, thanks for the ramble, hope there are some ideas somebody can use in there. :)

Enjoy 8th, 12th max if I had my choice.

Several of my players are very into diplomacy and want to make all kinds of treaties with other river kingdoms. So far I've just been making up challenges and Diplomacy DCs, but I'd like to use something a little more systematic.

I know the following is much more complicated that necessary, but humor me. I'd love some feedback on this draft of a treaty system. Thanks.

Step 8 – Negotiate Treaties: Your kingdom may make one attempt per month to negotiate a Treaty with another nation. Negotiating a Treaty, however, is a delicate and time-consuming process and there is no guarantee of success. Use the following process to determine the success or failure of your efforts.

Overtures: To initiate Treaty negotiations, your Diplomat must first make a Diplomacy skill check with the DC equal to the attitude modifier of the target nation (based on its attitude toward your kingdom) plus its Prestige score. He or she adds your kingdom’s Prestige score to his/her roll, plus +1 for every 1 BP spent on gifts and enticements given to the target nation. One additional kingdom leader (other than the Ruler) may attempt to assist with this skill check. If the check is successful, the target nation is interested and the two nations may advance to formal Treaty negotiations immediately; if the check exceeds the DC by 5 or more, the target nation’s attitude toward your kingdom is improved by one step for the rest of the negotiations. If the check is unsuccessful, the target nation is uninterested in negotiating a Treaty at this time, although overtures may be made again the following month; any gifts and enticements (i.e., BP) are wasted; if the check fails by 5 or more, an “incident” occurs, offending the target nation, and that nation’s attitude toward your kingdom permanently worsens by one step. A natural 1 is always a failure for these checks, and a natural 20 is always a success.

Attitude Modifiers
Target Nation’s Attitude
Toward Your Kingdom DC Modifier
Hostile +30
Unfriendly +20
Indifferent +15
Friendly +10
Helpful +0

Negotiations: Once formal Treaty negotiations have been entered into, the real work begins. Generally speaking, there are three types of Treaties that your kingdom may seek: Pacts of Recognition, Trade Agreements, and Military Alliances.

Pacts of Recognition are the easiest to achieve, and are a pre-requisite for the other two. To gain the recognition of another nation, your Diplomat must succeed on two consecutive Diplomacy skill checks with the DC equal to 10 plus the attitude modifier of the target nation (based on its attitude toward your kingdom) plus its Prestige score. He or she adds your kingdom’s Prestige score to his/her rolls, plus +1 for every 1 BP spent on gifts and enticements given to the target nation. One additional kingdom leader may attempt to assist with this skill checks (your kingdom’s Ruler may become involved in the negotiations at this point, but not without some risk – if the Ruler is involved and the negotiations succeed, increase the nation’s Prestige by 1, but if the Ruler is involved and the negotiations fail, reduce the nation’s Prestige by 1). If both checks are successful, the target nation formally recognizes the legitimacy of your government and agrees not to make any claims on your territory; increase your kingdom’s Stability by 2. If the first check exceeds the DC by 5 or more, the target nation’s attitude toward your kingdom is improved by one step for the rest of the negotiations, and if the second check exceeds the DC by 5 or more, the target nation’s attitude toward your kingdom is permanently improved by one step. If either check is unsuccessful, negotiations end and the target nation is uninterested in recognizing your kingdom at this time, although overtures may be made again the following month; any gifts and enticements (i.e., BP) are wasted; if either check fails by 5 or more, an “incident” occurs, offending the target nation, and that nation’s attitude toward your kingdom permanently worsens by one step. A natural 1 is always a failure for these checks, and a natural 20 is always a success.

In order for two nations to negotiate either a Trade Agreement or a Military Alliance, they must first have mutual Pacts of Recognition. Next, the two nations must come to a mutually satisfactory accord. Be warned, however – the larger the nation, the harder it is to satisfy. Your Diplomat must make a series of Diplomacy skill checks with the DC equal to half the target nation’s Command DC plus the attitude modifier of the target nation (based on its attitude toward your kingdom) plus its Prestige score. He or she adds your kingdom’s Prestige score to his/her roll, and one additional kingdom leader may attempt to assist with the check (if the Ruler is involved and the negotiations succeed, increase the nation’s Prestige by 2, but if the Ruler is involved and the negotiations fail, reduce the nation’s Prestige by 2). To secure a Trade Agreement, your Diplomat must succeed on 3 checks before failing 2, and to secure a Military Alliance, your Diplomat must succeed on 4 checks before failing 2. Each successful check moves the process forward, and for each check that exceeds the DC by 5 or more, the target nation’s attitude toward your kingdom is improved by one step for the rest of the negotiations. One failed check represents a temporary setback, although if the check fails by 5 or more, the target nation’s attitude toward your kingdom worsens by one step for the rest of negotiations. A second failed check means that negotiations have failed; if this check fails by 5 or more, the target nation has been offended and that nation’s attitude toward your kingdom permanently worsens by one step. Failed negotiations may be reattempted after a cooling-off period of 1d4 months and new set of overtures. A natural 1 is always a failure for these checks, and a natural 20 is always a success.

Terms: Successfully completing the required sequence of Diplomacy skill checks means that both nations are satisfied with the terms of the Trade Agreement or Military Alliance. All that remains is to determine what those terms are; they must, by definition, be beneficial to both sides, however, exactly how beneficial it is to each nation depends largely on the skill of its Diplomats. Your kingdoms’ Diplomat and the target nation’s Diplomat must make one final Diplomacy skill check, but unlike other checks made throughout this process, this is an opposed role – Diplomat vs. Diplomat. Each Diplomat adds his/her kingdom’s Prestige score to the roll, but no other kingdom leaders may assist, as this roll represents the Diplomat’s leadership and coordination of his/her team throughout the process as well as his/her actual negotiating skills. If the results of the two checks are relatively close (within 4 points of each other), both nations benefit equally and gain a bonus equal to 10% of the other nation’s Command DC to Economy for a Trade Agreement or Stability for a Military Alliance. If the results of the two checks differ by 5 of more, the nation with the higher check benefits more and the nation with the lower check benefits less, but both still gain from the Treaty, to a maximum +20% for the higher check and a minimum of +5% for the lower check (see the table below for precise values).

Besides the Stability bonuses, Military Alliances have additional benefits, though they come with additional responsibilities as well. First, two nations joined by a Military Alliance have the right to house armies in each other’s Forts and Garrisons (but not Barracks, Castles, Palaces or Watchtowers) as long as there is space available, i.e., an allied nation can use any unoccupied space in your Forts and Garrisons, and you can use any unoccupied space in theirs. The owner of the armies retains command and must continue to pay for them while housed in an ally’s facilities (at an additional cost because they are housed outside their own nation – see Part 3: Building Armies and 3.3 Building an Army for more information on maintaining armies). Also, foreign armies, even allied ones, are often unpopular with the citizens of the host country. Every month there is an allied army housed in one of your Forts or Garrisons, you must make a Loyalty check vs. your kingdom’s current Command DC (check separately for each allied army in your kingdom). Success indicates your citizens accept the foreign army on their soil. Failure indicates that they do not – increase Unrest by1d2; if the army remains in your kingdom next month, apply a -5 penalty to the next Loyalty check. Note: This check is waived, and all accumulated Loyalty penalties reset to 0, in any month when foreign armies aid in the defense of your kingdom.

Second, and more important, if either nation in a Military Alliance is attacked by a third nation, the other ally has an obligation to aid in the defense of the first. The size and composition of the armies sent to assist the attacked nation are left to the players and GM to decide upon, but it should be in line with the degree of benefit the aiding nation was receiving from the Military Alliance as well as its attitude to toward the attacked nation. To not send any aid would be considered a breach of the Treaty, ending it immediately.

[I'm doing a couple other rules about breaking treaties = Prestige loss, maybe trying to renegotiate treaties, but the above is the core of the system. Feedback please!]

Wow. Very cool. I also noticed the issue of everything costing the same regardless of the size of the kingdom you're spying on. Same thing with no differences in DC. I've been fiddling with a Treaty system - I have some players who are real into diplomacy. The basic formula I'm using is:

Diplomacy DC = half the target nation’s Command DC + the attitude modifier of the target nation [basically Diplomacy modifiers on a nation-wide scale] + its Prestige score [a custom score I use, the country's cool factor]

I haven't tried it yet, still in the development stage, but I'm trying to model a larger country being harder to negotiate with. The Diplomat gets to add some stuff to his role as well - a big team assist, his country's prestige, etc.

Anyway, my point is you could try basing your costs and DCs off the other country's Command DC in some way. It scales nicely with counties' size and complexity.

Just a thought.