Morgen's page

Look... this post is a rant. I realize that. You've been warned.

This article here
5th edition wizards pretty much guarantees I will not touch 5th edition.

rant on:

I am sick and tired of these developers telling me that for the past 20 years I have been doing it wrong, not been having fun and that they know better then all of the developers that came before them. That only the players who played wizards at my table had fun in my games and that fighters and rogues cried themselves to sleep at night over the injustice of it all.

I am sick to death of this fighter fan base that was beat up by a wizard in kindergarten and has dedicated their life to getting revenge by nerfing(to use an mmo phrase) wizards into the ground.

It annoys me to no end that this mentality has crept into pathfinder (by the way blasting spells have suffered) to some extent and is proselytized on the boards here almost daily.

I'm tired of it. It's called resource management. Wizards spells are the most powerful in the game and should do more damage then melee attacks because they are limited in resource. Letting your players get away with 15 minute adventuring days so the melee characters never shine means you're doing it wrong as a DM NOT that the system is flawed.
But no one ever looks at it this way, oh no, it's all the big bad wizard's fault. The class must be OP.

But it's this mentality that has led to 4th level archers in pathfinder doing 30+ points of damage per round, every round, all day while a 4th level wizard is lucky if he can pull off a 15 point damage spell 2 or 3 times the entire day.

This entire article is nothing but a massive nerf to wizards.
Scrolls should require a spell slot to use? So lets reduce the 15 minute adventure day to 10 minutes.

Reduced number of spell slots.. spells don't scale with level..BUT hey you can cast cantrips all day!!
This is like saying.. okay Mr. Fighter.. you can have 4 swings of your greatsword per day but then you have to switch to your dagger.

Haste is for fighters.. anyone else with a haste spell shouldn't get as many attacks as an unbuffed fighter... WTH... why does this sounds like SUMMMON FIGHTER I-IX should be the most powerful spell in the game?

The article has more examples of this.. grease to help the rogue. web to entangle the villain's horse but not the villain himself. Heaven forbid the wizard actually do something to win the encounter. That's everyone else's job. You should be happy we let you cast light. Not that it was necessary. The fighter just used a power and can see in the dark now silly wizard.

I grow weary of this. Leave the wizard alone or they aren't going to be worthy of the name for much longer!

/rant

Isnt part of being a monk having cool ki-like powers, being able to dance around through combat kicking things and generally shrug off attacks which would fell a lesser person? I dont really understand why the classes need to be balanced with respect to combat - isnt the style worth something?

It seems to me that many of the people declaring monks to be underpowered are still actually seeing them used in play. So presumably the people playing them are getting what they want.

I wonder whether the 'monk furore' is a function of a segment of the fan-base expecting combat-balanced classes when that isnt actually a terribly important part of the design philosophy being followed. (Not that I have any inside information as to what the design philosophy actually is).

It just seems to me that 'class X is underpowered' is often put forth as something obviously wrong and I'd be curious what the justification is for striving for class balance?

It would be remarkably cynical for the car manufacturer to just say "well how many people would do that? I MEAN REALLY!" It's a design flaw, a potential problem, a chink in the armor, and should be addressed.

The problem here is they're not even dealing with issues anyone can possibly predict.

"I need you to update the owner's manual to include the amount of time I can reasonably expect my car to operate under water. Also to what depth is my car rated?"

"The MPG estimate is not accurate enough. I need an exact calculation based on my daily commute."

"MPG rating is useless. Everybody worth a damn uses metric weights and measures. Why has this not been addressed?"

"I am living in my car, and even though everybody I know is clamoring for instructions on how to properly install fitted sheets in the back seat, you have consistently ignored us in these forums."

"I got a ticket for selling bootleg t-shirts out of my trunk at a concert. I wasn't told this would happen when I bought the car. Please execute and then fire whoever is responsible."

"I don't see why you needed to introduce all this feature bloat with my car. I would have much rather had a GPS system and HUD than manual controls on my thermostat."

"Thermostat? That would have been nice to know! I've been lighting fires on the floorboard all this time. We need bigger buttons."

"I've never used the brake pedal, and I've had no problems with MY driving. Seems like it's operator error."

"My friend died in a horrible accident outside of Tempe after strapping a jet engine to the roof of your car. You need to issue a recall, obviously."

"Richard Branson is aiming for sub-orbital travel--why are you guys still terrestrial?"

Note that the entire area of the spell is considered difficult terrain, costing double movement.

One thing i would like to see fixed in pathfinder, is to have a community that doesn't complain about the game so much.

40% of the talk here is... how do i make my PC more powerful
40% of the talk here is... this class is to powerful

the problem here is that the game is broken because people are trying to break it.

if i buy my dauther a new doll and she wants it taller, so she pulls and pulls on its head, than the head pops off. when that happens she crys that her toy is broken... Why is the toy broken???!??

Butterfly sword 20 gp 1d4 19–20/×2 1 lb. S monk
Butterfly Sword: These short matching swords come in pairs, cleverly nested together to appear as a single blade. Both weapons can be drawn at the same time, and they can be separated as a free action and wielded in both hands to make wickedly effective chops and slashes. Their thin, broad blades extend just 1 foot in length. A butterfly sword has a hardwood grip covered with braided cord, and a metal D-shaped guard to protect the wielder's hand.

I spend 20gp to buy a Butterfly sword. Do I have 2 swords or do I have one? The description implies they only come paired together, so I believe I have 2 swords. You can draw them together, and separate them into one blade per hand as a free action. Does this mean that you can enchant a butterfly sword, and get the enhancement bonus on both main hand and off hand attacks? Maybe this is the answer to the monks flurry of blows change. Also not a bad way for TWF ranger/fighter/etc to get both weapons enhanced for the cost of 1. Since these are merely light martial weapons, anyone with martial proficiency can use them.

I'd like official clarification on this, as searching didn't pick up anything. For 20gp, do you get a single butterfly sword, or do you get 2? If you get 2, does an enhancement count toward both of them?

Ghouls, Violet Fungus, Guard Dogs? I think I know which Society scenario you're talking about.

That scenario is a season 0, all of which tend to be on the easy side because they were designed for 3.5 rules and PF PCs are more powerful, especially at low levels.

Try them against a season 2 or 3 scenario. (Except First Steps, that series was designed to be a cakewalk.)

I think it would make sense for Paizo to refit their own major 3.5 APs to PF.

That's not terribly far from the time that I started in on the Shannara series by Terry Brooks.

My recommendation: get her a library card and let her pick for herself. My parents gave me a rule of "only what you can carry by yourself" at the library. I don't feel that it ever failed me or them, giving me free access to everything there.

I have one plea for GW while they make and run Pathfinder Online.

Do not treat the customers as if we are stupid, and do not act like we are nothing.

Let me clarify what I mean by this. I AM NOT insinuating you all have done this. At all. Ryan Dancey has been nothing but forthright and transparent. I look forward to the blog posts and his posts on the forum threads.

I come from LOTRO and most recently SWTOR. For the past few months I have been watching WB and Turbine destroy everything Turbine created with LOTRO. When they went free to play with LOTRO, they had a policy and a promise that they would never sell gear in the store that had actual stats on it.

Well, earlier this week, guess what hit the store? That's right, gear with stats. Any official response from the devs of Turbine has treated the customers like trash. They claim they are responding to a call for more gear options at lower levels. No one can ever remember seeing a forum thread calling for such things.

Also, by providing statted gear in the store they are destroying any niche for crafters.

The guy who runs Turbine, Fernando Paiz, said in his keynote speech to PAX East that you can push the customers past their comfort limit and they still will not leave the game. At this point he is saying you can poop on your players, so go for it.

So, why am I creating a thread in the PFO forums that is essentially blasting LOTRO? I do this because I am a founder/lifetimer there. I dropped a nice chunk of change on the game in the HOPE that it would sustain my interest for at least a couple of years.

It did. And now I no longer recognize the game I loved. So, to GW I say this: Remember we are customers, not dollar signs. By this I mean, when PFO comes out, treat us with respect. If you do that and provide us with a fantastic world then our word of mouth will do more for you than you can get by nickle and diming us to death.

I can no longer recommend LOTRO to anyone. I would love to be able to always talk up PFO to people.

Again, GW seems to be doing a good job right now. Keep it up.

ps - I hope my thoughts come through here. I am not trashing GW.

So sue me, but I love the 3X3 alignment system.

I just love the legacy of the whole thing. The Blood War, Mechanus, lengthy session arguments about what being chaotic neutral means. I love calling my boss lawful evil and having people who have not gamed in 20 years giggle about it. I love "is Stannis Lawful Neutral?" debates. It's a tradition, and while I freely admit that traditions should not survive just on that basis, it is one that I enjoy.

Application-wise, yes, mature players don't need it. But I don't play with many of them. I'm able to use alignment as a GM to get nonroleplayers to take baby steps in the direction of character concept. It's a tool.

Obviously-contrived, highly-flawed system? Sure. But I'd prefer a flawed system that forces people to consider morality from multiple angles to none at all. There's little else in the gaming world that has reached the big leagues of social discussion as much as alignment- and I feel we should be proud of the home town kid who made it so far!

I keep seeing people chiming in that developing an MMO is a dumb idea because MMOs cost huge amounts of money and it takes years to see a return on investment.

The thing is, once upon a time that was true... but it isn't anymore.

Even just a few years ago, before you could build your setting or your mechanics, you first had to build the tools that *let* you build the setting and the mechanics. Need trees? First build a tool that lets you build trees. Need characters? First build a tool that lets you build characters. Essentially, you had to start everything from scratch, and you had to spend lots of time (and therefore lots of money) just developing the tools to make the game. And that meant you had to spend ages and ages—and millions and millions—to make your MMO.

The thing is, this isn't true anymore. Maybe word hasn't gotten out yet, but the industry has evolved to the point that the tools to build many of the working parts of an MMO are now things that you can license instead of build. Not only does that mean that you don't have to spend piles of money reinventing the wheel, but it means that you can focus your resources on the things that are unique to your game, and it means that you can get down to building an actual playable game much sooner. And that last part means that you can launch faster, and *that* means you can start recouping development costs sooner.

And the fact that you don't have to spend as much also means that you don't need as big a player base to turn a profit as you would if you built everything from scratch.

It still requires *plenty* of skilled people, money, and time to make an MMO, but it doesn't have to require a bankroll the size of a movie studio anymore, and it doesn't have to have a player base the size of WoW to be successful.

I could care less about the rule set that an MMO follows. They are not the same and you should not aim for it. Pathfinder is a turn-based tabletop RPG. As a rules set for a TTOP RPG, it works quite well. However, a MMO is not a tabletop RPG. The people who think it should work like that do not get the design issues and probably never will.

I already know that the devs know this – but many of the fans here just don’t get it . Persuade your fans as to why – and with patience, the persuadable will be persuaded. However, some of these fans are NOT persuadable under any circumstances. That’s life. Keep selling them books and they will still be your customers, just not your online players. That’s okay. Let ‘em rant, because that isn’t Pathfinder.

I do see, however, a number of things that CAN work and DO feel like "Pathfinder,” to wit:

1 - Class Abilities: Pathfinder has improved upon and developed a number of class abilities that serve to distinguish the class from others. Those abilities should form a tangible aspect of a class design.

For example, we know what Paladins are. A Pathfinder: Online Paladin should have auras; smite evil, and have the ability to confer those benefits to others. Similarly, we know that a Witch has a familiar, can fly, and can cast hexes like misfortune and deep slumber. Alchemists in Pathfinder throw bombs and can use mutagens to increase their stats and body size. While something like a Vancian based arcane bond is not likely to matter in PF: O, Wizards should be able to throw a weapon and have it return to their hands. They should get some sort of metamagic and should be able to craft magic items. They should get a scorching ray and get multiple numbers of them as they advance (never mind what damage they actually do or how often it can be used) Barbarians are all about rage and DR. Gunslingers are all about guns, deeds, and grit, Ninjas can vanish, etc..

Keep the recognizable iconic abilities of classes and make them do similar sorts of things which are somewhat intuitive and recognizable to a player. The underlying math, lethality and so forth is irrelevant. Let the computer game designers of the MMO be computer game designers of an MMO. Nevertheless, some of the iconic powers of a class need to be represented and unique because that’s what fans expect and that’s what keeps up the verisimilitude of the Pathfinder brand.

2 - Look and Feel: Pathfinder has a distinctive art direction to its characters and many of its monsters. Some of that is going to work well in a computer game -- and some of it is not. Cut the stuff that will not work for polycount and animation reasons and do it without remorse.

But when you get right down to it, Pathfinder is Wayne Reynolds' art style. Make that come to life? You are golden in terms of art direction. Fail to deliver it and you dropped the ball and will alienate customers. Sorry – but in many respects it really IS that simple.

Above all, keep the cartoony look to your characters. There are strong benefits to this. On a technical design basis, it reduces polycount. As we move forward in the next five years, PC Gaming threatens to go off a cliff and the desktop will not be the primary platform for this game. Accordingly, anything that reduces graphical overhead and makes it more laptop friendly is good. Any CTO who tells you what the GPU capabilities are of the expected users of this game 4 years from now is making it up. He doesn’t know. That’s an ENORMOUS tech risk, so the engine and art direction has to be HIGHLY scaleable.

If you went for something like the CANVAS engine for your art style? You would not go wrong in terms of artistic impact (tech/economic feasibility is another matter). Apply the CANVAS engine's style and Wayne Reynolds art and color palettes and tell me you wouldn’t drool to play that game.

On a less technical basis, cartoony designs also serve to make the game look unique. The problem with realistic 3d models , shaders and middleware environmental options all designed to operate within the tech limits of the hardware platform of the day is that it all ends up looking the same, from game to game. Seeing as you are likely to have to use middleware for much of your environmental organic effects, anything that serves to distinguish the look of the game from that produced by others enhances the value. In this case, it also delivers on the expectations of fans – so double down on Wayne Reynolds' iconics and cartoony goblins.

Blizzard made the right call with WoW. Some people hated it and it turned them off -- but you cannot argue with that level of success. I can confirm that there was a significant debate within BioWare as to whether to go cartoony with SW:ToR. BioWare decided to go a little cartoony with their art direction in TOR too -- and it was the right call. Some people complained sure, but some people always complain.

3 - Golarion: At Paizo's current publication rate, it is likely that there will at that time of PF:O's release be more game material written about the world of Golarion than any other fantasy world in the history of RPGs. Even the FR (and that's saying something, damn it).

That is a VAST treasure trove of IP. It's the one thing Paizo brings to the table which it does BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE, in or outside of the computer development field. Do not sacrifice this on anybody's sandbox altar. Dance with the girl that brung ya.

That's what a Pathfinder: Online is to me. It's not rolling a 20, it's not Vancian Magic, longswords which do 1d8 or even magic missiles.

Gimme a Witch that hexes with a fox familiar, a chance to interact with the iconic characters which LOOK like Wayne Reynold's art come to life -- all set in a believable slice of Golarion.

That's a Pathfinder MMO to me.

We understand that MMOs (or even video games) aren't for everybody. Rest assured, we'll still be releasing Adventure Paths, hardcover rulebooks, and expanding the world of Golarion for tabletop roleplayers!

Well I'll be damned.

It's a funny feeling watching all your free time and money fly out the window at the same time, due to one announcement.

Sunrods unless everyone in the party has darkvision. Just like torches, but better. And worth the price difference, since its still chump change.

Oh, and a hat. Hyu cannot have a goot plan if hyu do not know where hyu hat is. ;)

Oh, and I got my DM to add in 4e's bracers of infinite knives. Even if their mundane they have so many uses. Plus, no need for Sleight of Hand checks when guards search you for weapons. ^^

Here's a tip to help you deal with issues like this one:

Read the Pathfinder rules while pretending that D&D never existed.

You see, the only reason you had a question is because you had an expectation based on 3.5 and didn't see anything directly contradicting it. Had you been a player new to RPGs in general, you'd have simply taken the skills chapter at face value and not had this question.

Remember, Pathfinder is not an update or a "patch". It is written to be its own game, capable of being played by a total newbie - no knowledge of D&D is required. In fact, sometimes (as you just discovered) it can be a hindrance; many people sorely misinterpret the rules because they read them with assumptions in mind from D&D rules. (For example, there was recently a huge, multi-thread discussion about Two-Weapon Fighting, where most of the misunderstanding came from D&D familiarity/assumptions.)

So again, when you find yourself unsure of how Pathfinder works in comparison to a similar element of D&D, ask yourself: "What would I think if I'd never played D&D? What does this rule say on its own?" Do this consistently, and you'll be miles ahead of a lot of players. :)

Welcome to Pathfinder, and happy gaming!

You say this is your first time with the rules, but you're already changing them without playing them?

I've been playing since 1981, so I understand the temptation to think that we understand and can familiarize ourselves with any system we come across just by looking at it. But I also understand how many times that has turned out not to be so.

I would recommend you actually play the game before you start altering it with house rules a mile long. You might find that not everything you think is broken, is, which will save you a lot of time and grief. I mean, to what are you comparing?

As to the creation guidelines, I have to ask where the 1st level PCs are getting 1,000 gp a day to do all this crafting? Is your concern that money is just lying around town in the gutters for any average PC to come by and pick up?

And why and how would every character in the game world go into the business of making magical items? Is every character in the game world a wizard? Are there no farmers or bakers or blacksmiths? Do you anticipate GMing for a party of four wizards?

No.

PFS does not use in-game solutions to out-of-game problems.

If a player is cheating, the other players should talk directly to him about it.

Your definition of 'healthy' is nowhere near mine.

Make a flawed character and having fun playing it should be more then reward enough.

This.

Luke Crane, the author of Burning Wheel has a great saying that I try to convince people of. he says "Disadvantages are advantages."

The reason for this is that they make the play experience more interesting and give your character more screen time. Honestly, there's not much more a gamer can ask for.

If you want to build a flawed character, that's awesome. Just do it. Apply your own penalties, however much you think they should be for the conditions. Roleplay how they are overcome, or occasionally ignore them for awesome dramatic punch ("I am not left handed...")

But don't expect a GM to give you an extra cookie for doing something that should already make the game more fun for you.

The single biggest slowdown of combat is players not knowing what they can do, and how the mechanics allow them to do it. Miniatures are an incredibly minor issue compared to that.

It still happens, however the martial classes have a place at higher level now. Also a good amount of the rules and mechanics have been fixed. Why did you use 4e if you were worried about balance btw? It's just as broken as 3.5/pathfinder. The game had players that could nova thousands of damage a couple of times a day, an infinite attack combo, weak spell casters, and unified formats for all classes.

"I can't replace a class with a skill -- the skill is borked!"

Sorry I'm done -- if that is really your position and you can't manage a dungeon without a magic user holding your hand and making the booboos go away there isn't any help I can render that you'll accept -- obviously you are simply one disaster from a TPK since you can't make it without a healer, and if something happens to that healer you are completely hosed.

I would suggest looking into versatility, diversification, and not wanting your cake and eating it too.

"I don't want a healer but I want all the abilities of a healer and I want it in a single skill!"

Is sheer lunacy, (as is the thought that you need someone in the party who's sole purpose is allowing to you not have HP damage).

Frequently Unknown Rules (through post 465)
Frequently unknown rules
including summary from: Things you might have missed
FAQs and other Reference Pages:
Pathfinder Core Rulebook FAQ
Pathfinder Bestiary FAQ
Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide FAQ

This is a list compiled by the users of http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards. The contents are those items identified as rules that are often unknown or forgotten, whether these were rules new to Pathfinder, rules that had changed from D&D or SRD 3.5 to Pathfinder, or which have not changed, but are frequently unknown, missed or forgotten. This list avoids taking a position on subjects that are highly debated and irresolvable due to rules conflicts or ambiguity. On the other hand, items that come up frequently, but are easily answerable by a direct reading of the rules, are included, as are both positions if the distinction is easy to explain. It also does not attempt to comment on every possible change. In particular, for Spells and Feats, only those that are extremely common or have wide-ranging impact are included.

The list is ordered by the type of change and then in by the order of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook chapters. Items that fall in multiple areas often appear in both. This list is an ongoing project and is unlikely to ever be complete. If you see something missing, add it.
Change from SRD/D&D to Pathfinder (includes brand new to PF)
Races
1. Elves sleep, but are still immune to magical sleep.

Classes
1. Class Hit Dice changes in many areas. In general, HD are tied to BAB progression.
2. Barbarians rage x rounds/day instead of x times/day
3. Bardic performances no longer based on Perform skill (other than Countersong and Distraction) and the bard can do other things while performing without interrupting a performance, such as cast spells. In SRD/3.5, a verbal performance would be interrupted by spellcasting.
4. Bardic Knowledge is changed. Bards get bonus to knowledge checks and can use untrained.
5. Clerics don’t get heavy armor proficiency, get proficiency with deities favored weapon, and need a feat to turn undead.
6. Fighters can retrain bonus feats.
7. Monk flurry of blows different.
8. Paladin double of smite against some creatures is on first attack only.
9. Caster level for ranger and paladins is class level –3 with a minimum of 1. In SRD, these classes had caster level of class level/2, minimum of 2.
10. Ranger favored enemy bonus applies to attack rolls as well as damage.
11. Cantrips and orisons are at-will
12. Uncanny Dodge changed: character with uncanny dodge is not flat-footed.
13. Wizard specialists can now take spells from their opposed schools, but such spells cost two slots to prepare. All wizards, whether specialist or not, gain abilities at levels based upon their specialty.
14. Wizards can opt to have a bonded object instead of a familiar. A bonded object provides various benefits for use and penalties if unavailable.

Skills
1. Concentration is no longer a skill. New mechanic makes it tougher for multi-classed characters.
2. Stealth/Perception changed in multiple ways from multiple skill set in SRD.
3. Alchemical items no longer require CL1 for some items.
4. Blind creatures use Acrobatics check to move faster than half speed else prone. Cannot run or charge.
5. Animals do not gain armor proficiency via any form of trick training. The animal type description text regarding trained for war leaves the discussion as well. Armor proficiency for animals is obtained through feats.
6. Acrobatics is now used for jumping. Acrobatics is a Dex skill, whereas Jump was a Strength based skill. The speed penalty for speed below 20-feet is reduced to –4 per 10 feet less than 30. The running start needed to require lower DC is reduced from 20 feet distance to 10 feet.

Feats
1. Many Shot and Rapid Shot can now be used together.
2. Dodge applies to all opponents, not just one specified opponent.
3. Improved Trip and Improved Disarm split into a feat tree (Improved and Greater)
4. Grapple works differently. Some highlights: grapplers no longer share space. Ranged attacks into a grapple no longer risk hitting the wrong target. Grappled creatures threaten surrounding squares and can attack into them (at –2 to hit). Effects on AC and sneak attack are debated (see below). Effectively, while changed, grapple is still problematic.
5. Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave, and Combat Expertise all different.
6. Track is no longer a feat
7. Far Shot halves range penalty instead of increasing range.
8. Mounted Combat now uses immediate action rather than 1/round language.
9. Animals do not gain armor proficiency via any form of trick training. The animal type description text regarding trained for war leaves the discussion as well. Armor proficiency for animals is obtained through feats.
10. Vital Strike feat is a standard action. It cannot be used as part of a full attack, charge, or spring attack.
11. Empower spell only applies to the rolled portion of the effect. (Note, this appeared with clarifying non OGC text in the PHB that it applied to the full numeric portion. That text did not appear in SRD)

Equipment
1. Spiked chain no longer has reach.
2. Weapon enhancement bonus (the plus portion, not the cost equivalent) overcomes various DR at different DR than just magic. Specifics: +3 negates cold iron/silver, +4 negates adamantine, +5 negates alignment based DR. This ability is not granted for greater magic weapon.
3. Mithral weapons count as silver for overcoming DR/silver.
4. Mithral armor now requires proficiency in original type of armor, not just resulting armor.
5. Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck.
6. Armor proficiency is not required to wear armor, merely to avoid some penalties to attack rolls and some checks. Some armor has no penalty even if non proficient. Some has no arcane check penalty as well. See masterwork and mithral for examples.

Additional Rules
(none)

Combat
1. Anything that improves attack rolls improves CMB, including weapon feats if using weapon for the special attack.
2. Sneak attack and critical damage applies to many additional creatures, including undead and constructs.
3. Characters can draw a weapon during a charge, but can only charge a single move distance and must have a BAB of +1. If charging a single move distance due to being restricted to a single action (surprise, slow, etc.), charging character must have Quickdraw to draw a weapon in the same round as a charge.
4. Stabilization and death changed.
5. Blind creatures use Acrobatics check to move faster than half speed else go prone; they cannot run or charge.
6. Initiative is rolled prior to the start of surprise round for all combatants. In SRD/D&D, surprised characters do not roll initiative until after the surprise round is over.
7. If damage is less due to strength penalties such that damage would be less than 1, the damage in PF is 1 point of non-lethal. In SRD/D&D, the damage is reduced to 1 point of lethal.
8. Sunder can be used as a tactic that is not self-defeating for loot-loving PCs. Minor repair magic, such as mending and make whole, are more useful as a result.
9. Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck.
10. Per the PF FAQ ruling you gain the benefit of a defending weapon only in those turns when it is used. For a shield, this would require using it for a shield bash.
11. There is no size limit to an opponent you attempt to grapple. In SRD, you can initiate a grapple with a creature up to two size categories larger than you are.
12. Something about CMD. (Language Pending)

Magic
1. Concentration is no longer a skill. New mechanic makes it tougher for multi-classed characters.
2. Polymorph school spells have changed. See polymorph spells and specific spells, such as alter self.
3. Empower spell only applies to the rolled portion of the effect. (Note, this appeared with clarifying non OGC text in the PHB that it applied to the full numeric portion. That text did not appear in SRD)

Spells
1. Many save-or-die and save-or-suck spells have re-saves or more limited effects.
2. Cantrips and orisons are at-will
3. Gate spell changed from 2x level to 1x CL in terms of HD called/controlled.
4. Detect (alignment) spells work differently. They do not detect alignment auras at low hit dice, and can register based upon intentions rather than actual alignment or deeds.
5. Harm spell explicitly cannot reduce hit points below 1, whether the save is made or not.
6. Celestial and Fiendish templates, such as used with summon spells, do not advance Intelligence to 3. This reduces communication options related to language.
7. Summoned creatures cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that require expensive material components. Expensive material components are typically those that would need to be tracked with a cost of 1gp or more.
8. Protection from evil grants a re-save at +2 and does not automatically suppress ongoing effects.

Prestige Classes, Gamemastering, Environment, NPCs
(none)

Magic Items
1. Magic item creation vastly changed. Note that there are various disagreements about exactly how it works, particularly with reference to prerequisites; those discussions are outside the scope of this document.
2. Magic item creation no longer uses XP.
3. Market Value of Magic Items (Language Pending)
4. Indentification of magic items changed significantly (see detect magic, identify, Spellcraft, and Perception)
5. Scrolls take a standard action, but longer if the spell contained has a longer casting time. (This may have been added in D&D add-on material as well, such as Rules Compendium).
6. A character can make a magic item without being a spell caster through the Master Crafsman feat.
7. Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck.

Appendices and Monster Rules
1. Poison rules incorporated into affliction and changed significantly; poison tougher all around.
2. Natural attacks changed. Creature can have multiple primary attacks.
3. Regeneration is simpler. See universal monster rule for regeneration.
4. Templates changed in many ways.
5. Incorporeal creatures take 50% of damage of each effective attacks instead of only being affected for the full amount of effective attacks 50% of the time.
6. Ability damage results in a penalty for every full –2 damage. The result of such penalties are limited in scope depending on the ability. Contrast with ability drain.
7. Ability drain is required before losing benefits from skill points and ability prerequisites required to qualify for feats and prestige classes. Contrast with ability damage.
8. Animals do not gain armor proficiency via any form of trick training. The animal type description text regarding trained for war leaves the discussion as well. Armor proficiency for animals is obtained through feats.
9. Celestial and Fiendish templates, such as used with summon spells, do not advance Intelligence to 3. This reduces communication options related to language.
10. Grab can be used against a target the same size or smaller than the grabber. In SRD, the target must be strictly smaller than the target. (This is published in Bestiary 2, and incorporated by FAQ into Bestiary. See Bestiary FAQ.)
11. Monsters advanced through PC class levels gain bonus to stats. Adjust stats by +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2, distributed in an appropriate way. This substitutes for SRD granting elite array for the same purpose.

Always like this, but frequently misplayed or not known previously

Races
(none)

Classes
1. Inspire courage is free action to continue once having started.
2. Animal companions can be dismissed at will and replaced with 24 hours; note that new companion requires training other than bonus feats.
3. Animal companions gain feats as they gain hit dice.
4. Animals do not have to be proficient in armor to wear barding, but may have penalties depending on what barding they wear.
5. Sneak attack and other precision damage applies to every attack in a round, not just once per round.
6. Familiars and animal companions can be the target of spells that they can not normally be the target of, such as enlarge person.

Skills
1. Rules for tying up a character are in Grapple section.
2. Auto-success on a 20 and Auto Fail on a 1 are not universal to all rolls. They apply only when called out. Typical examples are attack rolls and saving throws. The following are not subject to auto-success/failure: Skill checks, caster level checks, concentration checks.
3. Take 10 on skill check can be used when not in immediate danger or distracted. Do not confuse with Take 20’s restriction from use if there is a negative consequence.
4. Take 20 cannot be used if there is a negative result for failure. Do not over-generalize to apply this to Take 10.
5. If failing on Use Magic Device with a natural 1, you cannot retry for 24 hours.

Feats
1. Ride-by Attack is still a mess.
2. Removed.
3. Metamagic applied to spontaneous casting (bards, sorcerers, etc.) and to class-based spontaneous casting (cleric’s spontaneous cure or druid’s spontaneous summon) take longer to cast. Such spells take a full round action (different than 1 round casting time) to cast if originally a standard action; spells with a casting time originally longer than a standard action take an additional full round action. A sorcerer’s empowered magic missile would take a full round action to cast, and would come into effect at the end of his turn; in contrast, a wizard’s enlarge person (with no metamagic), has a 1 round casting time and comes into effect at the start of the wizard’s next turn.
4. Quicken Spell applies to spells with a casting time of a standard action or a full round action. Some view this as also applying to a casting time of 1 round, such as enlarge person. Expect table variance.

Equipment
1. Reach weapons can be used to attack opponents 10 feet away, but cannot be used against adjacent foes. Various feats and class abilities can make it possible to do so.
2. Animals do not have to be proficient in armor to wear barding, but may have penalties depending on what barding they wear.
3. Carrying too much gear can slow you down and might incur additional AC max Dex limits.

Additional Rules
1. Darkvision is not spoiled by other light sources. (Different in comparison to some pre 3e versions of D&D)
2. Rolling a natural 1 on a saving throw can damage a randomly determined worn magic item.
3. Carrying too much gear can slow you down and might incur additional AC max Dex limits.

Combat
1. Ranged attacks suffer from cover from objects, enemies, or allies. Allies often overlooked. Applies to reach weapons, ranged touch attacks, and melee touch attacks that have reach as well. (Last portion of this is subject to review).
2. Readying an action is a standard action. One can move first, and then ready. The readied action itself can be a standard, move, free, or swift action. (Note: could not explicitly be swift in SRD 3.5; swift was not in the SRD.) Can include 5’ step as part of the readied action if no other movement in either the readied action or prior to the readied action during regular turn.
3. Characters who use the run action lose Dex bonus to AC, and thus are subject to sneak attack.
4. Spells can crit if they have an attack roll.
5. Characters and creatures can charge a single move distance as a standard action if limited to a single action, such as during a surprise round. This doesn’t mean you can opt to only charge as a standard action if you have a full round of actions available.
6. Coup de grace can be performed against a creature with total concealment, such as invisibility, by using two full round actions.
7. Rules for tying up a character are in Grapple section.
8. Withdraw action can be double move. AoO only prevented from first square left.
9. You cannot take AoOs when flat-footed (usually in surprise round or before you have acted in first round) unless you have Combat Reflexes or a similar ability.
10. Ranged touch attacks (rays) and touch attacks can be the object of weapon improvement feats such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, etc., and also benefit from feats such as Weapon Finesse.
11. A character can take only one immediate or swift action per round. Note: Swift and Immediate actions not part of the SRD, but commonly in use. (When does it reset language; language needed)
12. Reach weapons can be used to attack opponents 10 feet away, but cannot be used against adjacent foes. Various feats and class abilities can make it possible to do so.
13. Initiative is a Dexterity check, which is influenced by rules that modify ability checks.
14. When using manufactured and natural weaponry, all natural weapon attacks become secondary.
15. Difficult terrain and poor visibility hamper movement. You cannot take a 5-foot step nor charge in hampered movement.
16. The delay and ready special actions may be taken in initiative. When initiative starts is generally at the determination of the GM/DM. The ability to delay or ready an action outside of initiative should not be assumed and is subject to the individual table or playing group culture.

Magic
1. Spells can crit if they have an attack roll.
2. Removed.
3. Mutliple magical effcts that increase size do not stack.
4. Wizards learning new spells require time and a Spellcraft check. If the Spellcraft check fails, it cannot be tried again until the wizard gains a rank in Spellcraft. The wizard may Take 10 on the Spellcraft check.

Spells
1. Lesser restoration is a three round casting time. Usually, this means it isn’t used during combat. Potion of lesser restoration is good for in combat, though.
2. Enlarge person has a 1 round casting time.
3. Dimensional anchor has no saving throw, just spell resistance.
4. Harm (moved to item 5 of things that have changed -> spells)
5. Summon spells have 1 round casting times, even from wands.
6. Grease can be used to disarm.
7. A number of spell effects (remove disease, remove curse, knock, etc.) require a caster level check to be successful instead of automatically; this is not universal to all similar spells
8. Summoned creatures attack enemies without additional communication. Communication is required for other tasks or more specific instructions. Different groups may handle specific instructions differently.

Prestige Classes, Gamemastering, Environment, NPCs
(none)

Magic Items
1. Weapons and armor must have +1 enhancement prior to gaining additional enchantments.
2. Summon spells have 1 round casting times, even from wands.
3. Using a wand with a casting time longer than a standard action takes that long to activate. A wand of summon monster I takes 1 round and a wand of lesser restoration takes 3 rounds. But, you have to know to look under the activation section at the start of the wand section to know this.
4. A character can use a wand with a spell on his class list, even if he can’t cast spells yet. For example, a 3rd level paladin can use a wand of cure light wounds.
5. Spells with range of personal cannot be made into potions.

Appendices and Monster Rules
1. Immunity to cold/fire gives vulnerability to opposite. (Developers have indicated future change for this)
2. Elementals are immune to flanking and critical hits.
3. Creatures can often overcome the DR that is needed to hit them (magic, epic, etc.)
4. Fear effects stack or escalate; characters can become more fearful.
5. When using manufactured and natural weaponry, all natural weapon attacks become secondary.

It’s the same between SRD and PF, but PF makes it confused

1. Reach weapons for small and medium creatures have a reach of 10 feet. Despite a diagram that says otherwise, they can still attack two squares on a diagonal.
2. Double weapons are two-handed weapons with special properties regarding two-handed fighting. If a double weapon is used in one hand, only one end can be used. The missing text that clarifies things is that using a two-handed weapon with one hand only happens if it is sized smaller than you or you have an additional rules resource to permit it.

It’s the same between SRD and PF, but PF makes it clear

1. Wizards with prestige classes only get 2 free spells when gaining a level of wizard, not when gaining a level of the prestige class.
2. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. (In 3.5, this was subject to variance.)

Pending Resolution or More Complex than Can Be Dealt With Here
1. Quickened Spell on spells with casting time of 1 round. (see discussion in rules section of forum, here. A line is included that there is table variance on this matter above.
2. What is the interaction between grapple, pin, AC, Dex Bonus to AC, sneak attack? Contradictory rules (particularly when inclusive of condition table footnotes) are contradictory or ambiguous. discussion thread.
3. Defending Weapons resolved by FAQ
4. The arcane topic of dragon skin armor.
5. The role of Wealth by Level and interaction with crafting, consumables, wizard spell book, etc.

Just as an FYI, this is a super-fighty way to frame this discussion. Hot topic political threads need to be on their best behavior these days because we're tired of putting out flamewars. Not a specific warning to anybody just yet, just a reminder. Thanks.

Keep in mind that neither Paizo nor Wizards of the Coast are likely to post in this thread any secret future plans, so everything posted in here is going to be pure speculation, based on pure speculation.

So when you feel like disagreeing with someone (and you probably will, I can tell it has the potential to be that kind of thread), keep in mind that it's just their opinion. They're no more privy to the truth than you are.

And when you post your awesome idea that Paizo absolutely must do or else we're going to go out of business, please have faith in Lisa, Erik and the rest of us that we got to this point because we're not stupid.

The one that stops being fun to play.

Currently there is a debate going on about why sword canes were added if they were not mechanically better than X.

There was a huge thread about the Monk vow of poverty, and how horrible it was.

To which I slam my head repeatedly into my desk.

Crazy thought here, maybe every build isn't an optimal build.

Maybe, and I know I'm going to get a little nuts here but stay with me, maybe some people think flavor is more important that power because maybe they actually play the game to create a story with the DM, and they want to play an interesting character in that story.

Maybe, and this could just be crazy talk, some people think that your huge eideolon with 15 attacks would probably not be allowed in most major cities, or your Svirfneblin or Dhampir may cause some interaction problems in well lit rooms.

Maybe some DM actually ask the question "What do these characters look like when they walk in a room, and how would people react to them"

Maybe a sword cane is less conspicuous and that has value. Maybe as a player you want the challenge of trying to build a monk character without significant gear.

Maybe some of us are less worried that the new splat book didn't give you the broken option you were hoping for so you could show all your friends how awesome your broken combo is in a made up world for a little while until the Devs realize a mistake and errata it.

Maybe...just maybe...some of us like having more options, while still allowing old options to have value and not be obsolete.

Crazy, I know...

The weakness in all the above suggestions is that you suppose that magic is a unlimited resource and that it will be possible to harness unlimited quantities for a unlimited span of time in a fixed location without secondary effects.

If we look a bit of Golarion lore we see that we have the Mana Wastes, an area where the use of powerful spells and magical artefacts had caused long lasting damage to the fabric of magic.

Another interesting source of lore is the Wishcraft article in The final Wish (AP n,. 24). The continual use of wish magic in a single location warp reality.

So probably magic energy can be compared to water. It is abundant in most of the world, but if we start to tap to much of it in a specific location we can create problems.
So a high magic civilization will have problems similar to our own: magical pollution, shortage of magic in some specific location and so on.

Things like the teleportation circles network work well in theory. It isn't too hard to limit the circle size and/or guard the circle location, so the danger of invasion is limited (I really wouldn't like to be the guy trying to teleport his army through a 10' radius circle in a bare room under the fire of enemy guards).
But what happen when you teleport? You pass through the astral like in earlier versions? You become a stream of energy particles travelling at high velocity?
Independently by what is the underling mechanic you can bet that doing hundred of tleportations from the one location to another location, always along the same route, will have some secondary effects after a time.

Any RavingDork thread.

This thread is unnecessary at this point. Pathfinder is what it is. We're not going to revise it or release a new edition anytime soon. If somebody thinks they can make a more balanced game, there's the PRD. It's OGL. Go for it.