Mistwalker's page

I too was wondering the same thing.

asvig's retainers might not because they aren't part of that job. The big group was put together for that purpose, and so they got tetsubo'd. But still, thats a lot of prep for the occasion (since the oath is a one a day, if I recall correctly)

Actually, it can only be used once a day for a blood oath - there isn't an expiry date on the oath.

I have always interpreted presdigitation to work in a similar manner as the light cantrip - you can only have one in operation at a time.

It last's an hour, but you can have it do all kinds of odd jobs, cleaning things, cooling your ale, flavoring the aweful inn food, etc...

With the above interpretation, I think that most of the issues up thread are addressed - no statues levitated for a moment, no melted iron doors, etc...

I actually like the caravan combat rules, once they are upgraded to reflect CR and engaging all of the PCs.

I posted these in one of the caravan combat threads.

Every level, a caravan not only receives a feat, but an attribute point as well.

Masterwork Wagons are available from the start of the adventure (stats are in the last AP)

Caravan damage increases at the same rate as that of a rogue’s sneak attack extra damage dice.

The feat “Extra Wagons” is a free feat.

The caravan rule for the spell “Create Food and Water” is removed and the spell works normally.

Masterwork Wagon
Cost: 1200 GP Hit Points: 40
Traveller Capacity: 6 Cargo Capacity: 6
Limit: None Consumption: 1
Special Benefit: +1 bonus to AC

Hero combat actions:

Attack: The Hero can make an additional attack, using the caravan statistics (basically providing another attack for the caravan), up to three heros may take this action.

Defend: The Hero can aid the caravan in repulsing the next attack, providing a +2 bonus to AC.

Rally: The Hero may use Diplomacy, Intimidate or Magic to rally the caravan, granting a +1 bonus to the resolve check, with an additional +1 for every 5 points by which the Hero exceeds the check DC (10 + the encounter level).

Battlefield Repair: The Hero can cast a spell that repairs objects (such as make whole or fabricate) to provide the caravan with 1d6 hp per spell level (minimum 1d6). A Hero with the appropriate skill can make a skill check to provide the caravan with temporary hp equal to the check result.

This entire thing seems alien to me. My groups are always happy to hand items to whoever gets use out of them because if your ally kills the badguys faster you win. Every time your ally does something awesome you win. If you are on a hockey team and someone gets the puck passed to them you don't start whining because you didn't get to shoot. You just pat your team mate on the back and then do your best to keep the team going.

There's some bad sportsmanship going on there and that ain't cool.

It's the perception of the thing, more than the reality. As long as no one feels that they are being overly penalized, or that someone else is being overly rewarded, loot seperation usually isn't a big issue.

To use your example, if two hockey players are often free near their opponent's goal, and the puck is always passed to the same player, who as a result has a high number of goals, do you think that the player who is never given the pass will feel happy/comfortable/appreciated/etc? If they had received the pass, they would have scored the goal - team wins either way, but in this case, they never get the chance because the pass and goal always goes to the other player.

Am I missing something or is there really no way to stop someone from noticing that the bird watching them from across the way has a distinct aura of beast shape III?

You also have to remember the limitations on Detect Magic.

Range of 60'
Is across the way more than 60'? Can the changed watcher follow/observe/scout/etc.. from more than 60'? If so, they simply stay far enough away to be out of the range of the spell, or simply move off a bit when the caster cast the spell, and then stops concentrating a few minutes later.

Interfering auras
Is anyone with magic on them between the caster and the changed watcher? Then the caster will detect magic, but unless they spend more time observing, they will not know that there is a bit of additional magic on the far side of their magic dripping team mate.

Arc
The spell detects in an arc, not as a radius. That means that if the changed watcher can stay out of the arc, they are safe from detection.

Um... directing a spell requires concentration right? So a simple perception check would reveal the caster. Even if they aren't using magic words and gesturing. It would be blatantly obvious that the noble was the target of a spell when his clothes suddenly get soiled.

How would it be blatantly obvious?

If a noble is giving a speech, they likely expect that most of the crowd is concentrating on them - how would they know which one is the caster and which is simply an obedient subject?

mdt wrote:

Come at it the other way.

Bump into the mayor before the speech, spill ink or something on him. Then apologize and offer to clean his clothes. Intentionally use prestidigitation to hide the stains instead of removing them. Then, half-way through the speech, kill the spell.

Would not work. This line from the spell stops it from going away:

"Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour."

This to me implies that cleaning or soiling lasts till it is either dirty again or until it is cleaned.

Actually mdt's idea would work well, and keep the caster out of range when the stain appears.

Color the stain, then an hour later, the stain appears, caster no where in sight.

One possible solution which might explode if your players do not like being pushed too much in a corner

** spoiler omitted **

Actually, it was another item that did that, not Suishen.

Volkspanzer wrote:

@Bertious

Well, the spell itself increases its intelligence to 3, so I don't think that will be a problem. It can even speak a single language (not sure how eloquent it will be, however).

IF it raises it's intelligence to 3, the creature becomes it's own being and is no longer your bonded pet.

The rules for animal companions allow the PC to increase one of its attributes every few levels. Are you saying that if you raide its intelligence that it is no longer you animal companion?

If so, could you provide a reference?

You might also want to consider only having Shalelu go into the swamps with the PC. She is teaching a newbie the art of goblin killing, so she lets them do most of the work, make mistakes so that they learn, provides some healing by way of a wand of CLWs, etc...

I had Sandru and Koya out of town when the swamps were explored, rolling into to town just as the party was leaving the swamps, meeting them on the road.

The above should allow you to run the AP with just a single PC, and not have any disconnect at the first couple of PC levels.

Changing relationship type comes into play in the players guide, where it says that if you enter a romantic relationship with one of the NPCs, you change from enmity to friendship without any penalties to the relationship score.

When you sign on for an AP, you as a player enter an informal contract to work with the rest of the group to attempt to complete the AP and to help everyone else have fun along the way. Ask a soldier if the gear they get is passed out based on "fair" or based on the combination of role, utility, and actual carrying capacity. Soldiers want to live and get home more than they want to "get their share", and they make better decisions as a result. Adventurers have far more in common with soldiers than they do gamers.

Military units are not always a good comparison for adventurers.

Military units have a strict chain of command, issued geared and have a fixed but steady pay.

Adventurers often have issues with being told what to do (and their players have trouble with perceptions of the railroad), have no fixed pay or reward. Their pay comes from what they loot from their vanquised foes or what they find in old (and usually abandonned) complexes.

Your approach is one way of doing thing. Not every group will fall into that approach, nor should they be obliged to. I have seen the same group of players run thing differently from one campaign and another one (different PCs).

You don't understand the basic concepts of what it means to be a long-term group working towards a single goal. Not even close.

That phrase appears to be quite close to telling people "you are having bad/wrong fun". If the perception of the reader comes to that conclusion, often your posts will disregarded, even the pertinent points.

Below quote selected as it demonstrates a viewpoint, not because of the person who posted it.

Mistwalker wrote:

I suspect that . . . will ensure that no one PC is overly penalized or rewarded for wielding Suishen.

You are a dedicated group on a long-term mission that requires you all work together towards a single end.

Exactly how is one person going to benefit more than everybody else if they are using Suishen?

The group succeeds or fails.

Those focusing on individual benefits and balancing out the rewards across the party are demanding that working together as a group isn't important until I get mine!

You don't understand the basic concepts of what it means to be a long-term group working towards a single goal. Not even close.

Not everyone/group is focused only on the greater good and/or the greater good of the group. Not everyone is willing to sacrifice what they consider their fair share for the greater good, especially if they see that sacrifice rewarding someone else simply because they became the lucky one to wield Suishen.

While everyone is trying to put Ameiko on the throne (or doing so until they can replace her), they don't believe that one individual should get a lot more of the rewards for the same amount of danger.

That is where the problem lies, determining the value of Suishen, or finding a way to ensure that the perceived value of Suishen does not overly penalize (or reward) the weilder.

I don't expect to have any issues with Suishen and my group, but I like to be prepared, and I believe that my changes will engage my players more, with all of them forming bonds with Suishen and Ameiko.

It's an extra-dimensional space to avoid the embarrassment of the DM later realising that the thirty foot deep pit was in a floor two feet thick before it became the ceiling of the level below.

How do you figure that it will open up to the floor below?

The pit is not there in the material world, but a dimentional pocket that only has the "entrance" to the pit as its link to the material world.

I have had the enemy bull rush (or hydraulic push) the PCs into their own pit in the past.

But what happens when the PCs, after some of the enemy fall into the pit, cast Wall of Ice (or stone, or force, etc) to seal the top of the pit? When the pit spell ends, the bottom of the pit moves upwards to end up back where it started - what happens to the creatures that are caught between the rising bottom and the newly created wall?

One thought would be that the break damage needed to break the wall is spread out amongst the creatures that are rising as the wall is "shattered" when the creatures are thrust throught it.

Anyone have any better solutions or rules that I missed?

One change that I made to Suishen was that it provides proficient with itself to any scion who wields it.

I have also determined that once a particular scion unlocks some powers, they are always unlocked for them, regardless of who else has wielded it since.

I plan on having Suishen encourage all of the scions to unlock all of it's powers, each using it in turn until all of them have unlocked all of it's powers. This will mean that in the later parts of the adventure, any of them can wield it to it's full potential, regardless of who is down and who is not, at that particular moment.

To me, Suishen is part of the clan, allied with the clan, and not a piece of gear that any single PC can say "mine".

I suspect that the above will ensure that no one PC is overly penalized or rewarded for wielding Suishen.

There are a number of threads in the Jade Regent forum that deal with caravan combat. Those should probably be looked at for those running Jade Regent.

There's a spell in This Book called "Phantom Charger" (an improved version of Phantom Steed) which conjures a mount that can attack. Should probably be added to the SRD at some point.

Are you saying that it should be added to the PRD?

Mistwalker wrote:

I must be missing something here - why does it take more time?

In the past, I have prepared a knowledge page [..]

Unless you're Doctor Who, preparing the knowledge page must have taken some time. :-)

Part of my prep. And once I have it once for a creature, I don't have to recreate it, it's in the text document where I keep all of my monster and NPC stats.

The solution, as far as I can see, to the metagaming problem is to secretly pass the information to the player that rolled, but that takes even more time, which is unacceptable.

I must be missing something here - why does it take more time?

In the past, I have prepared a knowledge page, where I list the DCs for creatures. When a PC rolls, I tear off the note where their roll falls, pass them the note and keep going with the PC who's turn it is.

Example

Tricky monster
DC 25: DR/Magic
DC 30: Fast healing
DC 35: several spell like abilities - including disintegrate
Etc...

To me, the link is to the soul, not the physical appearance.

The same mount would be arrive when called. In this case, the one with the valuable items on it.

I don't understand the Salt Mines. How can a caravan come through such a crowded location? Once the party is warned that there's trouble in the mines, should they avoid them? If so, what's the alternate route?

The route through the salt mines will save a day by not having the expedition spend a day going around the point that sticks out from the badlands.

In my game, the expeditions are using mules and porters to carry all of their gear, so they would have no trouble going through the mine. None of the expeditions are using wagons - they will be impossible to get through the jungle.

He assumed the identity of someone else - all of the backstory is about someone else, whom he looks like. Have it come out in game play - all kinds of plot hooks and ways to have it happen.

edit: put is spontaneous creation back in play

Paizo has used medium creatures to carry medium creatures.

Blue_Hill wrote:

Here are some treasures that I designed for my party. I got idea for these from Ice Titan how made some awesome books/journals. Check them here. Here are my versions for my party:

Lessons of Many Ways by Amatatsu Hideoyri
** spoiler omitted **

Style of Free Fist by Amatatsu Ha'Ouken
** spoiler omitted **

Songs of Nightgale by Amatatsu Reiko
** spoiler omitted **...

Any comments on these? My player's will find these on our next session which is on monday.

They look fine to me Blue Hill. I like the fact that they scale with the level of the PCs, that is a nice touch.

For my group, I plan on the treasure being:

Ranger/archer: Bracers of Archery and a Tien Efficient Quiver (replenishes every night)
Fighter: Mithril Folding Plate +1
Wizard: Blessed Book
Bard: Adamantine thread durable whip +2
Cleric: Headband of charisma +2 and phylactery of positive energy channeling

And a Kami Box for the group: homebrew item, where if you place valuables in the box, the next morning they are gone and an equivalent value of enchanting supplies are in the box. I wanted a way that they could manage to do some enchanting without having to jump thru hoops to arrange for them to be able to buy the needed supplies.

It is a fair bit more than they should be getting, but it should make up for not getting a whole lot in the artic (I will adjust the value treasure over several levels to keep them close to WBL).

A strange rule, that's for sure. Probably made up on the spot?

Why is it strange?

I always had the impression the reduced spell level for metamagic feats was never supposed to bring them below the level of the actual spell itself, that is 0.

Jason has confirmed this.

I doubt it is a made up on the spot, as Jason doesn't seem to the type to wing it when talking about rules. Also, when there were unintended consequences in the past, he has stated that the design team would have to take another look at it - which isn't the case here.

I don't have any problems with high stats, as long as they heven't dumped any.

I have done a fair bit of high level play and enjoy it (I am usually the GM).

What kind of tactics are you using? From the sounds of things, your PCs seem to be able to get off full round attacks.

I posted this in another thread, but I think it is relevant here too, though you will have to adjust the spells a bit.

Some better options would be:

1) to put in terrain - most people forget about difficult terrain and terrain features that restrict movement (half-walls, pits, rivers, squeezing tunnels, unstable floors, weak/collapsing floors, etc). Terrain will help a lot in reducing full round attacks.
2) The use of creatures that can trip - wolves, tripmasters, etc.
3) Ray spells - Ray of Enfeeblement, Exhaustion, Sickening
4) Sight line control tactics - Smokesticks, obscuring mist spell, etc.. to reduce vision to 5', makes it hard to moves fast, or to avoid traps, etc..
5) Incapacitating spells - command, daze, deep slumber, hideous laughter, hold person, etc. (kept at 4th level or below spells to be as powerful as the confusion spell in your example)
6) Inconveniencing tactics - disarm, reposition, steal, sunder, traps, etc.
7) Defensive spells - blur, displacement, fireshield, mirror image, stoneskin, etc.
8) Misdirection - have things not be what they appear to be. Examples: Describe an enlarge full plate NPC with oversized gauntlets coming to attack them, don’t say that it’s an Iron Golem; The tower shield full plate opponent that seems to be resistant to damage, and keeps drinking potions of healing, but what with the potions and the shield, can’t seem to hit anyone - is a hidden mage using major image; the Finger of Death spell attacks in the market - it may be hard to identify them coming from a shrieking monkey, especially if the PCs have seen organgrinder and his shrieking monkey several times already.

The above are a few ways of making something challenging to the PG, and if one technique is not abused, they can ensure that everyone has fun (the GM should make sure that the character that you consider OP has their time to shine as well as everyone else).

If you have some prep time, you may want to consider using lower level creatures with class levels to bring them up to be a challenge to the PCs.

You might also want to look at the Boon Companion feat from Seekers of Secret Chronicle book, page 16.

Boon Companion allows you to consider your level up to 4 higher (up to your level) for considerations of your familiar or animal companion.

If you want, take it at 5th level, have your horse become your animal companion, with abilities calculated as if you were a 5th level druid.

Its been over 10 days, sense my order was sent off, but I have not receive any package.

It can depend on where in the world that you are.

For me, in Canada, it usually takes about 14 days for me to get my shipments with the cheapest shipping method.

Wraith, ok, but I think that was part of the problem old white dragon had spell resist and took damage from fire, where the save came in and where the damage was reduced was his problem. either way because "dragon" was the monster type and it was not in the area the stats were in, and because the rules for spell resist (or whatever it was) were not listed near stats, he had to look everything up and it took way way too long... I think I want to make sme new DM screens based on this for him or something...

One thing that I do as a GM as part of my game preparation is to make a text document for the creatures that the party will face. I copy and paste all of the relevant abilities (from the beastiary entry, from the tables at the back of the beastiary, from the core, etc...). This entry also has any modifications that I have done to the creature (changed feats, HD upgrades, spells already cast, etc..).

When I first started doing that, it increased my prep time a fair bit, but it did three things for me.
1) It made sure that I knew what each creature could do as well as put all of the relevant facts in one place
2) It increased my knowledge of the rules and made sure that I knew where to find them for when I need to verify them.
3) It provided me with a database that allows me to quickly grab what I need or make changes on the fly as to what the PCs are facing (cause you know that the detailed planning that you did for a location will be the location that the PCs miss or decide to do last - or head directly for the one place that you didn't prep).

IF the GM can't or won't do this, you may want to prepare some cheat sheets that have the relevant text and which page of which book to find them.
ex: Spell Resistance does .... p217-218 Core or p304 Beastiary
Caster Level Check (d20 + caster level) p217 Core
Saving Throws p216-217 Core
Vulnerability does.... p305 Beastiary

Another thing you may want to consider is having several colored sets of dice, one set for each creature (or each of its attacks).

Roll the D20 and the damage dice for each creature and each of it's attacks in one big pile of dice.

This way, you only roll the dice once and already have the damage rolled if you hit.

I would also have all of your spells on cards - this way if the GM has a question, you can hand them the card.

Another way to hide magical traps is to place a lot of Magic Mouths all over the place, with activations set to be pretty much impossible (dancing pink elephant).

Have the magic trap set up so that there is a mechanical traps 5' or 10' before the magical one, which may be missed while the rogue is concentrating on the magical one.

Have an illusionary wall cover a symbol of (your preference). When the mage detects the illusion, there is a good chance that they will dispel it and reveal the symbol - which will cause it to activate.

Based on your statements that you are running a game in a store, are trying to cultivate new players and pretty much have to take anyone who shows up:

I would eliminate XP completely, and simply tell the players when they level. This would avoid the issues of XP sinks if the missing PCs were run as NPCs.

I would provide those that showed up every session at the store with a bonus, depending on the players, adventure, etc.. It could simply be a discount on buying magic items, a greater chance of finding magic items for sale, a bonus to skill checks when interacting with NPCs (active PCs have a better reputation), an extra feat or trait every now and then, easier access to spellbooks to copy spells, reduced costs to heal and/or raise, etc...

I would explain that there is a problem in the world, a curse that affects heros, on a random basis several heros turn into figurines that end up in the active PCs pockets (to explain how and why PCs keep appearing and disappearing, and how to keep them in the adventure when they do show up).

Timothy Hansen:

A metal box in a backpack is thick enough to stop a fireball. According to CRB p215 you need a 1foot square hole to allow line of effect through a solid object.

Gauss, I am having trouble with one aspect of the set up that you are talking about.

Why would a LN arbiter stay with the wizard that forces it cast a spell, then locks it up in a small metal box and proceeds to torture it?

Also, I am of the same opinion as Wraithstrike, that multiple castings of this spell will not stack, only the most recent version will.

interesting points

Not sure that I agree, but you have given me things to consider.

I wasn't sure where the interpretation that the staff magus was giving extra hardness and HP was coming from, which is why I was asking. :)

When the +5 falchion is dropped and receives damage (e.g. giant stepping on it), it still is a +5 falchion having a hardness 10 points higher and 50 extra HP.

The not wielded staff on the other hand has hardness 5 and hit points 10, so giants trample will crush it and the ambushed fireball will burn it.

Weird, I posted a reply yesterday morning and it disappeared.

Carn, where are you getting that the staff magus 10th level ability adds in an extra hardness of 10 and 50 extra hit points?

I have trouble with the idea that the mere touch of a staff magus causes a flare of magic that adds to the hardness and durability of a staff. When I read the description of the ability, I saw it as the staff magus refining the magic of the staff to aid him in combat, not that his touch imbued the staff with a large increase in magic, vastly increasing its powers.

The text says that the staff is treated as a magical staff with an enhancement bonus to attack and damage. This is almost identical to greater magic weapon (which also says that the enhancement does not count towards overcoming damage reduction).

Temporary bonuses should not give all of the advantages of permanent bonuses.

Are you seeing it differently?
In your interpretation, how does the touch of a staff magus provide the staff with the extra hardness and hp?
Does it overcome damage reduction?
If so, why does it do so when the best example of this type of temporary increase does not?
If not, then why does it seem inconsistent, one permanent bonus being applied and not the other?

When the +5 falchion is dropped and receives damage (e.g. giant stepping on it), it still is a +5 falchion having a hardness 10 points higher and 50 extra HP.

The not wielded staff on the other hand has hardness 5 and hit points 10, so giants trample will crush it and the ambushed fireball will burn it.

Where are you getting that Magus' ability adds in an extra 10 hardness and 50 extra hit points?

"At 10th level, a staff magus treats any magical staff he is wielding as a magical quarterstaff with an enhancement bonus to attack and damage equal to the staff’s caster level divided by 4 (minimum +1). The staff must have at least 1 charge for the magus to use this ability."

Are you contending that when Staff Magus picks up a staff there is flare of magic hardening the staff? When I read the above, I took it to mean that the Magus could use the magic of the staff to enhance their attacks and damage, not that the mere touch of a Magus would suddenly enhance the structure of the staff.

I have always understood that the extra hardness and hit points comes from the permanent enhancement of the weapon. That temporary enhancements do not provide anything more than what is explicitly stated.

The closest spell for this is Greater Magic Weapon. From what I am getting from your interpretation, this spell would also add in hardness and hit points? If not, why not, it seems to be the same case?

Out of curiosity, do you believe that the above ability also allows the staff to bypass damage reduction?

Carn,

you realized that it probably wouldn't take long for your enemies to know what your staff was, right? (Detect Magic in the Inn, from previous fights, from tales, etc...)

And that your staff is a single 15 points of damage from being destroyed? (5 hardness, 10 hit points)

If your GM is comfortable with the idea of the staff, go for it.
If your GM isn't comfortable with it (or if the other players aren't), I would suggest not trying to game the system as hard as you appear to be. GMs have an infinite way of expressing their ire.

Also, you have to be 11th level to be able to do this yourself, as the Craft Staff feat has a pre-requiste of being 11th level.

baalbamoth,

The staff magus build that is referenced in the thread and the shield staff have a few things that were missed.

The feat Craft Staff cannot be taken before you are 11th level, so even if the Magus can use it as a magic weapon based on the caster level of the spell in the staff at 10th level, he cannot make one like it himself at 10th level.

The approach for the Shield Staff is a powergaming and/or being a munchkin approach, where they increased the amount of charges needed to cast a 1st level spell from 1 charge per spell to 3 charges per spell, simply to reduce the cost of the one spell staff.

The intention of the magic creation guidelines are being violated with the above approach for staff/magic weapon creation. The same way that a use activated True Strike sword/ring/amulet/etc. is not acceptable to any reasonable GM.

Paizo inherited some magic creation guidelines and prices from the previous editions, where the earlier ones didn’t have a pricing guideline. That is why they are guidelines and not hard and fast rules. Perhaps if/when Paizo reboots into Pathfinder 2nd edition, they will be able to address the potential item creation issues.

If I had a player that wanted to abuse the system with such a staff (and for some reason it was in my game - maybe gotten drunk and taken advantage of :)), there would be a fair chance that once their enemies learned of the staff (Detect Magic observation at an Inn, previous fights, etc..) and that it was only that effective in his hands, they would likely sunder it - a hardness 5 item with 10 hit points (15 points of damage in one hit destroys it) wouldn’t last long, likely be sundered in the first attempt.

last- earlyer I was reading a thread... I think it was labled something like unlimited wishes, and it was talking about how because the crafting of magic items requires no XP cost, and the rules say anything lacking in the crafting formula (IE your 4th level not 20th)only increases the DC by 5, a 4th level character may actually create a pile of wish items in not much time at all. or could create almost any item in the game with a high level spell caster to fire off a spell or two.

To me if that IS the case, the entire magic item crafting system is broken and needs to be re-written because anyone could do this and its only the level to which you decide to abuse the rules which stops you.

You need to look at the rules in context, not in isolation.

For a Ring of Three Wishes, you need to have the Feat Forge Ring, which can only be taken at level 7.
The spellcraft check would be a DC of 25 (cl 20 +5 for missing spell).
Spellcraft: 5 int, 3 class skill, 7 ranks = 15. And it would take 120 days to make it. So possible, if the GM is willing to allow you to take 10, but if they are not allowing it, then there is a chance of losing the gold.
Speaking of gold, the cost would be 97 500 gp to make it. So where is a character who is only supposed to have 23 500 gp getting the other 74 000 gp to make the item? that amount of gold is usually what is available for an character that is midway to 11th level, a character that wouldn't be doing so well if all of their gold was locked up in making a single limited use ring.

Can the crafting rules be abused? Yes. Are they broken? As long as the RAI is followed, I don't think so.

Good suggestions Mist. On terrain and powergaming builds I recall the ranger archer character is often considered op. Now a naive dm will allow that char to get all arrows off and never hinder their shooting. Of course though, terrain really can mess with sight and what can be seen, provide partial or total cover. It isn't too hard to find foliage so thick, you cannot see 50 in. No reason this can't be in a fantasy game. If a wizard destroys everything they see, much like an archer, then limit what they can see, make them fear the dark, the shadows, what is hiding in the thicket. Terrain is a magnificent balancer, but if the players never have the advantage they will become tired over time.

Thanks.

Terrain is probably the most overlooked aspect of the game.

For archer builds, terrain can be used to good effect to cause them some problems. As you mentioned, the first one that pops into mind is line of sight - block it and they are no longer putting out as many arrows. There are several other ways of causing an archer build some problems - illusionary walls, wind walls, darkness, smoke, grappling, etc..

GMs need to be well versed in combat to make interesting challenges that do not overpower the non-combat dedicated builds.

I agree that any one counter should not be abused, which is why I said in that earlier post that one technique should not abused or overused. You could allow/encourage the player to find a counter to the counter and let them run with it for a bit. The goal is to allow everyone to have fun and their time in the spotlight.

Gauss,

I don't think it is as bad as you think it is.

It is not more effective than a healer in the group keeping the melee specialist healed up. Sneakier, yes, but not more effective.

Also, the melee specialist needs to stay withing 25' of the familiar, or the spell ends. A lot more challenging to do. No more charges, moving ahead to block the exit, simply looking over something while the familiar moves on to the next room, etc...

Dispel magic would also cause a few problems with it - one of my first insincts when I realize someone isn't taking as much damage as they should.

baalbamoth,

I think that some of your ideas for controlling PowerGamers (PG) will not have the effect that you are looking for.

1) 20% rule - the PGs and/or optimizers will still make more powerful characters than those that do not learn the rules as deeply as them. You may actually encourage them to find ways to defeat your purpose, as some may be annoyed enough to actively seek to sabotage your intentions.
2) Regardless of which books you restrict the players to, PGs and/or optimizers will make more powerful characters.
3) stat limitations, PGs and/or optimizers will make more powerful characters.
4) feat limitations, PGs and/or optimizers will make more powerful characters.

I think that everyone can see where I am going with this. It doesn’t really matter what houserules you put in place, PGs and/or optimizers will make more powerful characters.

That’s why I agree with a lot of the other posters and say that GMs need to talk to PGs and/or optimizers. The GM needs to set expectations for the game/campaign for everyone.

If some are feeling left on the sidelines, then the GM needs to look at why that is happening and find solutions for that. I am not saying that every character has to only have optimized choices on them, but they need to understand the consequences of their choices -only taking skill focus as a feat will not lead to a character that will do as well in combat as one that made even a few more combat oriented choices.

My youngest daughter has a fighter that has three feats put into singing and dancing because she wanted her character to be able to do that. She is less optimized for combat than other fighters, but she is the only fighter in the group, so the effect does not leave her feeling left in the sidelines in fights.

baalbamoth,

You stated early in the thread that combat was easy, only rolling a few dice, and not important - storytelling was much more important.

I think that that is part of the trouble that you and your GM are having - knowing how the system works, how classes, feats, skill, spells, etc. interact is very important.

The examples that you gave in the this thread illustrate that - When others pointed out that you can upgrade the challenge or target the weakness(es) of the PowerGamer (PG), your response was that the GM had tried - the GM made a multi-armed and armored monstrosity to challenge what you call a (PG) or cast confusion on the PG, who then I presumed rolled 76% or higher on the table and that the nearest individual was a team member.

Those are not very effective was of doing it, in my opinion. Some better options would be:
1) to put in terrain - most people forget about difficult terrain and terrain features that restrict movement (half-walls, pits, rivers, squeezing tunnels, unstable floors, weak/collapsing floors, etc). Terrain will help a lot in reducing full round attacks.
2) The use of creatures that can trip - wolves, tripmasters, etc.
3) Ray spells - Ray of Enfeeblement, Exhaustion, Sickening
4) Sight line control tactics - Smokesticks, obscuring mist spell, etc.. to reduce vision to 5', makes it hard to moves fast, or to avoid traps, etc..
5) Incapacitating spells - command, daze, deep slumber, hideous laughter, hold person, etc. (kept at 4th level or below spells to be as powerful as the confusion spell in your example)
6) Inconveniencing tactics - disarm, reposition, steal, sunder, traps, etc.
7) Defensive spells - blur, displacement, fireshield, mirror image, stoneskin, etc.
8) Misdirection - have things not be what they appear to be. Examples: Describe an enlarge full plate NPC with oversized gauntlets coming to attack them, don’t say that it’s an Iron Golem; The tower shield full plate opponent that seems to be resistant to damage, and keeps drinking potions of healing, but what with the potions and the shield, can’t seem to hit anyone - is a hidden mage using major image; the Finger of Death spell attacks in the market - it may be hard to identify them coming from a shrieking monkey, especially if the PCs have seen organgrinder and his shrieking monkey several times already.

The above are a few ways of making something challenging to the PG, and if one technique is not abused, they can ensure that everyone has fun (the GM should make sure that the character that you consider OP has their time to shine as well as everyone else).

I really dont know PF

I find this ironic. You started this thread with a goal of nerfing several parts of the game, but you also say that you don’t really know it yet. I highly recommend that you spend more time learning the game before taking a nerf hammer to it.

gunsummoner... so though the build is totally friggin OP for anything without DR and its totally OP against most villian NPCs, and it out performs most other ranged non-spell using characters in the amt of damage it can do to a creature with DR

And the fact that it will take them at least 6 rounds to reload, isn’t a problem? A projected Image spell would help negate this kind of nova attack (if you are using a 20th level PC, then likely the enemies will know of the PC’s tendency to nova). A villain NPC at that level will likely have access to the spell Stoneskin (giving them DR 10/admantine) or other spells/magic items/class abilities that will help provide some defenses (like barbarian DR XX/–). Even a Mirror Image will cause the above build trouble. Minor Image or Major Image will definitely mess with the nova attack.

Like others in this thread, I don’t think that the game itself is the problem that you are having in your current game - it is a rules mis-interpretation and communication problem.

You may also want to consider figurines of wondrous power.

An example of that is the "Talisman of the Summoned Steed" from the Taldor, Echoes of Glory Campanion book.

Basically, it turns into a mount when the command word is spoken, reverts to statuette form as well (no more leaving mounts at the dungeon entrance). If it is killed, it turns into a statuette for 24 hours.

For emergencies, keep two on you.

Additional HD mounts might work, I'll have to see what the DM thinks about that. It has the advantage of not looking so out of place in his setting.

I've checked Constructs, but I don't think it's gonna work; almost all of them require level 6 spells to make, which I'll never get thanks to Epic 8.

Each spell that you do not have adds a +5 to the spellcraft DC.

Depending on how many you are missing, you still may be able to make the construct.