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Thanks for the responses, but that doesn't really answer my question. I guess I probably didn't phrase it right. I'm basically trying to find out that if adding flurry of blows (in essence 4 feats), to a class (was thinking bard), would be too good of a thing.

Was wondering if it would be too much to add a flurry of blows like ability to an archetype? I like the idea of a thrown weapon user who could do something similar, but only with thrown weapons. Any thoughts?

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

So, this ability replaces wings of heaven and is useable once per day. The 20th level ability of the Celestial Bloodline, Ascension, gives you unlimited use of Wings of Heaven. Does that mean at 20th level you'd get unlimited use of Sacred Cistern instead?

4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

It doesn't say, but would using this feat provoke attacks of opportunity from everyone you attack since you are leaving a square threatened by them?

1 person marked this as a favorite.

still hoping for a puppetmaster ;-) not meaning to bug, as I see you're quite busy, just trying to keep the topic on the burner so to speak. :)

Just finished playing the level 5, and it seemed pretty decent. Wasn't quite as good of a skill monkey as a normal bard, but had some cool thematic abilities that everyone enjoyed. Didn't miss the bardic knowledge, because it actually made everyone else feel more relevant in putting ranks into their particular knowledges. Of course, this was just at level 5, but was still an interesting playthrough.

every class gets a free profession, craft, and/or perform? allows for fluff without having to use precious skill points?

Ioun Angel PrC

I'm actually playtesting it in a one off next week. Will only get to see how it is at level 5, but will at least give a start of an idea of what it's like.

So apparently even though I'm not allowed to edit my old post to clean it up, or to delete the thread I started because it's too cluttered, if I make a new thread that's cleaned and better organized, it gets locked by a mod.

Thanks for those who made comments on the other thread before it got arbitrarily locked.

Harrower Archetype concept

Here's the archetype, any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. :)

Wow, love the ideas you have going on in here. I'd still love to see a puppet master class like some people we saying several pages ago. Also, I'd be curious on your take of converting the Harrower PrC into a 1-20 base class. :)

bump. Was hoping to get some kind of response on this. GM wants other peoples opinions on if this is balanced or not. Any comments are appreciated. Thanks.

I'm reposting this since the first one ended up being a giant wall of text due to formatting errors on my part. Sorry about that.

I've been working on this for a little while as an attempt to be a harrower from the beginning instead of having to wait until higher levels for the flavor to mean anything.

Harrower Archetype.

PEACH :-P (Please evaluate and critique honestly) Thanks!

It's meant to be an archetype, replacing some of the abilities with a set of abilities that are themed. But truthfully it could work as an alternate Bard class too now that I look at it in that light.

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

Dotting for later review...

Might I suggest writing this in a Google Docs Document and linking to it... it cuts down on the wall of text...

Either way this sounds interesting.

Ah, good idea, didn't think of that.

Hopefully this works.

Harrower concept.

So I've been working on this for a while, and I'm curious what you guys think of it. Let me know of any comments or suggestions. Thanks. (Couldn't get the chart to format right on this, sorry) It's based off the detective archetype, destined bloodline, heavens mystery, and I think that's it. It's had multiple revisions, and used a lot more sources before.

1) Bardic performance, blessing of the harrow, cantrips, eye for detail, fascinate, forwarned, harrow casting, inspire courage +1

2) Arcane insight, arcane investigation

3) Fated +1


5) Inspire courage +2, fortune 1/day

6) Suggestion, arcane investigation

7) Fated +2, harrowing, spirit deck

8) Dirge of doom

9) True confession

10) Reading the signs, arcane investigation

11) Fated +3, inspire courage +3, fortune 2/day

12) Soothing performance


14) Frightening tune, arcane investigation

15) Fated +4, deny fate


17) Inspire courage +4, fortune 3/day

18) Mass suggestion, arcane investigation

19) Fated +5

20) Master of Fate

The bard’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the harrower.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bard is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, shortsword, shortbow, and whip. Bards are also proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields). A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor and using a shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a bard wearing medium or heavy armor incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

Spells: A bard casts arcane spells drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
The bard’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of the bard’s choice. At each new bard level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Bard Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bard knows is not affected by his Charisma score (See Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
A bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.

Bardic Performance: A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st a bard can use bardic performance for 2 additional rounds per day. Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level.
Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action. A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round. A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time.
At 7th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action. At 13th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a swift action.
Each bardic performance has audible components, visual components, or both.
If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and such performances are language dependent. A deaf bard has a 20% change to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with an audible component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Deaf creatures are immune to bardic performances with audible components.
If a bardic performance has a visual component, the targets must have line of sight to the bard for the performance to have any effect. A blind bard has a 50% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with a visual component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Blind creatures are immune to bardic performances with visual components.

Fascinate (Su): At 1st level, a bard can use his performance to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and capable of paying attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creatures affected. The Distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard has attained beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with this ability.
Each creature within range receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard’s level + the bard’s Cha modifier) to negate the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and observes the performance for as long as the bard continues to maintain it. While fascinated, a target takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Perception checks. Any potential threat to the target allows the target to make a new saving throw against the effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect.
Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability. Fascinate relies on audible and visual components in order to function.

Inspire Courage (Su): A 1st level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard’s performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.

Suggestion (Sp): A bard of 6th level or higher can use his performance to make a suggestion (as per the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not disrupt the fascinate effect, but it does require a standard action to activate (in addition to the free action to continue the fascinate effect). A bard can use this ability more than once against an individual creature during an individual performance.
A Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier) negates the effect. This ability affects only a single creature (but see mass suggestion, below). Suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language-dependent ability and relies on audible components.

Dirge of Doom (Su): A bard of 8th level or higher can use his performance to foster a sense of growing dread in his enemies, causing them to take become shaken. To be affected, an enemy must be within 30 feet and able to see and hear the bard's performance. The effect persists for as long as the enemy is within 30 feet and the bard continues the performance. The performance cannot cause a creature to become frightened or panicked, even if the targets are already shaken from another effect. Dirge of doom is a mind-affecting fear effect, and it relies on audible and visual components.

True Confession (Su): At 9th level, a detective can use performance to trick a creature into revealing its secrets. Using this ability requires a successful Sense Motive check to see through a Bluff or notice mental compulsion. After 3 continuous rounds of performance, the target must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard’s level + the bard’s Cha modifier). Success renders the target immune to this power for 24 hours. On a failed save, a liar inadvertently reveals the lie and the truth behind it. A creature under a charm or compulsion reveals the nature of its enchantment and who placed it (if the creature knows) and gains a new saving throw to break free from the enchantment. This ability is language-dependent and requires audible components. Using this power requires only 2 rounds of performance at 15th level, and 1 round of performance at 20th level.

Soothing Performance (Su): A bard of 12th level or higher can use his performance to create an effect equivalent to the mass cure serious wounds, using the bard's level as the caster level. In addition, this performance removes the fatigued, sickened, and shaken condition from all those affected. Using this ability requires 4 continuous performance, and the targets must be able to see and hear the bard throughout the performance. Soothing performance relies on audible and visual components.

Frightening Tune (Sp): A bard of 14th level or higher can use his performance to cause fear in his enemies. To be affected, an enemy must be able to hear the bard perform and be within 30 feet. Each enemy within range receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard’s level + the bard’s Cha modifier) to negate the effect. If the save succeeds, the creature is immune to this ability for 24 hours. If the save fails, the target becomes frightened and flees for as long as the target can hear the bard's performance. Frightening tune relies on audible components.

Mass Suggestion (Sp): This ability functions just like suggestion, but allows a bard of 18th level or higher to make a suggestion simultaneously to any number of creatures that he has already fascinated. Mass suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language dependent ability that relies on audible components.

Blessing of the Harrow (Su): The harrower gains the Harrowed feat as a bonus feat. Additionally, once per day, a harrower may perform a harrowing for herself and all allies within 20 feet of her. This harrowing takes 10 minutes, and allies to be affected by it must remain within 20 feet of the harrower for the entire time. At the conclusion of the harrowing, count up the number of cards from each suit that were used in the reading. This harrowing provides a bonus based upon the suit with the most cards showing. In case of a tie, choose one suit. The bonus lasts for 24 hours. The suits grant insight bonuses as follows. Strength: +1 on attack rolls; Dexterity: +1 to AC; Constitution: +1 on weapon damage rolls; Intelligence: +1 on all skill checks; Wisdom: +1 on all saving throws; Charisma: +1 on caster level and concentration checks. This ability replaces distraction.

Cantrips (Sp): bard's learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Bard Spells Known under "Spells Known." These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.

Eye for Detail (Ex): A detective gains a bonus equal to half his level on Knowledge (local), Perception, and Sense Motive checks, as well as Diplomacy checks to gather information (minimum +1). This ability replaces bardic knowledge.

Forewarned (Su): You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your harrower level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20. This ability replaces countersong.

Harrow Casting (Su): Whenever a harrower casts a spell, they draw three cards from their Harrow deck. This adds both a somatic component (if the spell does not already have one) and a focus component (the Harrow deck) to the spell, but does not increase the spell's casting time. The cards drawn change the parameters of the spell cast or grant some other benefit, as described in each tower ability. Each card the harrower draws that exactly matches her alignment counts as two cards of that suit. A spell may not be affected by both Harrow casting and a Metamagic feat. The towers are as follow:
Tower of Intelligence (Su): Whenever a harrower uses their Harrow casting ability, for each card they draw from the suit of Intelligence, they gain a +1 to their caster level check to overcome spell resistance.
Tower of Strength (Su): Whenever a harrower uses their Harrow casting ability to augment a spell that deals damage to hit points, the spell deals +1 point of damage per die for each card from the suit of Strength they draw.
Tower of Charisma (Su): Whenever a harrower uses their Harrow casting ability, for each card they draw from the suit of Charisma, the save DC of the spell increases by +1.
Tower of Constitution (Su): Whenever a harrower uses their Harrow casting ability, for each card they draw from the suit of Constitution, the harrower or an ally within 30 feet of the harrower heals 1d6 points of damage.
Tower of Dexterity (Su): Whenever a harrower uses their Harrow casting ability, for each card they draw from the suit of Dexterity, they gain a +1 bonus on Reflex saves and to AC until the beginning of their next turn.
Tower of Wisdom (Su): Whenever a harrower uses their Harrow casting ability, for each card they draw from the suit of Wisdom, they increases the spell's effective caster level for all variable effects by +1.

Arcane Insight (Ex): At 2nd level, a detective can find and disable magical traps, like a rogue’s trapfinding ability. In addition, he gains a +4 bonus on saving throws made against illusions and a +4 bonus on caster level checks and saving throws to see through disguises and protections against divination (such as misdirection, and nondetection). This ability replaces well-versed.

Arcane Investigation (Ex): In addition to normal, a detective’s class spell list includes the following:

1st—detect chaos/evil/good/law
2nd—zone of truth
3rd—arcane eye, speak with dead, speak with plants
4th—discern lies
5th—prying eyes, stone tell
6th—discern location, find the path, greater prying eyes, moment of prescience

A detective may add one of these spells or any divination spell on the bard spell list to his list of spells known at 2nd level and every four levels thereafter.
This ability replaces versatile performance.

Fated (Su): Starting at 3rd level, a harrower gains a +1 luck bonus on all of her saving throws and to her AC during surprise rounds and when she is otherwise unaware of an attack. At 7th level and every four levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 19th level. This replaces inspire competence +2/+3/+4/+5/+6.

Fortune (Ex): At 5th level, as an immediate action, you can reroll any one d20 roll that you have just made before the results of the roll are revealed. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. You can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every six harrower levels beyond 5th.

Harrowing (Sp): At 7th level, a harrower adds the harrowing spell to her spells known as a 3rd-level spell.

Spirit Deck (Su): At 7th-level, as a standard action, summon a shimmering, translucent Harrow deck made of force that flies through the air and engulfs a target within 30 feet in a whirling cloud of knife-edged cards. The harrower then draws four cards plus one for every two levels beyond 7th (five at 9th, six at 11, etc.) from her personal Harrow deck, and the spirit deck deals damage based on the number of drawn cards that match her alignment. Each exact match deals 8 points of damage, each partial match deals 4 points, each non-matched card deals 2 points, and each opposite match deals 0 points. You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.

Reading the Signs (Ex): When a 10th-level harrower draws cards from any deck of cards in order to either activate a class ability (such as Harrow casting) or to activate a magic item function, she may draw an extra card and choose one to ignore and shuffle back into the deck. The harrower may not use this ability when performing a harrowing, but may use it when performing her Harrow casting or spirit deck abilities. She can also use this ability when drawing cards from magical decks, such as a deck of many things. She may use the ability at will, but must wait 1d4 rounds between each use.

Deny Fate (Su): At 15th level, your ultimate destiny is drawing near. Once per day, when an attack or spell that causes damage would result in your death, you may attempt a DC 20 Will save. If successful, you are instead reduced to –1 hit points and are automatically stabilized. This replaces inspire heroics.

Master of Fate: Upon achieving 20th level, your mastery of fate grants you perfect harmony with the universe. You receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier. You automatically stabilize if you are below 0 hit points, are immune to fear effects, and automatically confirm all critical hits. Should you die, you spontaneously reincarnate (as the spell, except you don't roll for race) 24 hours later in a place of your choosing within 20 miles of the place you died. You must have visited the place in which you return back to life at least once. This ability replaces deadly performance.

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