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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber. 986 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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While I am sympathetic to the idea that the Solarian should have 6 skill points rather than 4, arguments that the Solarian has a 'feat tax' mainly make me think that this board is still suffering from way too much One True Way-ism. Also, a large amount of "If it doesn't contribute to the DPS calculation its worthless", presumably from way too many games of Pathfinder where the GM just ran everything as a damage race.

Put bluntly, if the wide variety of special abilities the Solarian has are of so little use that you're reduced to putting all your effort into shooting a laser rifle as best as you can? Then the GM is running the game badly.


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My read is that they very specifically want to discourage the entire "post-battlefield nonconsensual surgery" playstyle. Its not that they worry about the game balance effects of slightly more cyberware, its that they don't want the aesthetic effects of PCs dismembering sentient foes for parts.


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I would read this as impossible, largely because getting 10% value is what selling it for salvage would otherwise do. It makes no sense to ban it if you can work around the issue to get the full normal value.


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QuidEst wrote:
Well, the setting of Pathfinder is ancient history (and legend, thanks to the Gap) in Starfinder. Record of Lodoss War would make a convincing period anime. Using different deities might be common in fiction to avoid annoying any gods or goddesses.

Your making me envision the body of law covering defamation and deities. Deities would definitely count as Public Figures, which would provide a lot of leeway. OTOH, improperly labeling something so that it could be readily mistaken for fact rather than fiction, might constitute a quick trip to Actual Malice. So, if your going to write a fictional tale about a god or goddess, best to include some thorough disclaimers.


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"Handsome" Twik wrote:

If I was going to advocate for the Scientist that everyone brings up.. i would go for a poisoner type. Someone who brews up their own poisons and toxins, and can make use of that red-headed step-child known as the Needler Pistol. As you progress through levels, the various variables on poisons can become customized.

With how much more effective poisons are in Starfinder, I argue this could lead to having a lot of flexibility in toxin options, fill a unique utility, be effective, and still be balanced.

Also keeps the thematic of someone in science, playing in a lab. Then using that science to adventure.

The problem becomes "But my scientist PC concept has nothing to do with chemistry or biology. Why would I be an expert in poison, I'm an archeologist!" Any new class really needs to be broad in its scope.


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I run Akiton as kind of Borderlands-ish, if more serious. The civilized parts of Akiton are only somewhat, and the wilds tend to be outright Mad Max. Its often a functional kind of dysfunction, but not fun if your not big on neo-feudalism and warlord gangs.

In theory, the larger Pact could and probably would give Akiton the hand up it would need to reassemble itself into a functioning planetary polity. The problem is, the Pact collectively has bigger problems. Akiton having gone all "fall of Rome" is bad, but there are a lot of problems that are way worse. So, everyone else largely allows Akiton to shamble along as a relatively unthreatening world of neo-feudal megacorporate enclaves and raider armies.


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Also worth pointing out: so the enemy melees and then steps back. Sure, they are out of reach, but you are out of reach, too. If they want to continuing meleeing, they will have to approach again. If they have ranged weapons, sure, its an issue, but if you ended up slowed, presumably there is more than one ranged foe. Charge the other guy.

Long story short: don't run off solo, and don't be a one trick pony.


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Where do UPBs come from? I think that's fairly obvious: from factories that manufacture UPBs. Its a commodity item, so the profit margin is tiny. Thus, most UPB manufacturing is done in fairly large factories for achieving maximum efficiency of scale.

So why can't PCs do it? Well, they can. They just need a factory, and a supply line of raw commodity materials to fuel it. Which they don't have, because PCs are adventurers, not business executives in one of the lowest profit margin businesses in existence.


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The problem is that, this would end up making radiation weapons absolutely useless for PCs, since enemy ships don't have crew stats. I suspect it is an oversight which will be filled in later.


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As for UPBs and crafting, there's no official way to manufacture them yourselves, but as long as your not getting free infinite money from the process, it should be fine. Which is to say, if your turning scrap or salvage into UPBs, it should be at the same 10% rate as if you were selling it to a merchant ( since 1 UPB = 1 credit ). The only way around this would be if you are, effectively, mining or manufacturing them as a trade good.


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Wingblaze wrote:
I'm not sure. Personally, 5 levels into Starfinder, I find the 10% thing to leave me feeling very cash poor and it only gets worse as you look at higher level items. Either you have to get luck and find that new gun you wanted, or you go without.

I would suggest that, if your feeling cash poor, its likely because your GM is not running things properly. When determining the wealth value of an encounter, you are *not* supposed to count everything at full value. Only stuff the PCs are actually likely to use is full value, then rest is only supposed to count at the 10% level.


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Or it could be that the rules were not written by a lawyer, and treating them as if they are a legal text is the wrong way to read them.


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Huh, what happened to the FAQ button?


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So... why not just be a gunner? Yes, you will not be maximally optimized, but you still will have a full BAB. Even if you have no Dex at all, that will catch up pretty soon with anyone who isn't maxed Dex. And regardless, you'll only be about 10% or so behind in accuracy versus anyone whose not a high dex full BAB.

The minimum threshold to be useful at something is not "as high as you can possibly go at level 1".


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Put me down as another fan of a "random system generator". . . though I'd prefer it be more of a "random planet of the day" generator. By this I mean, it doesn't just generate astrography. It generates local events and culture, in the context of plot seeds.

Thus, you don't just roll "earth-like planet with a toxic atmosphere and horrible winds", you also get ". . .and there's a local pirate outpost that tries to be secret, but will kill anyone who finds them". Or "pleasant habitable moon, with bronze age native civilization, and valuable minerals in generous supply that make them a target."


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Looks like my friendly neighborhood arms dealer will be getting a new influx of inventory. . .

( "In Drow Apostae, political power not grow from barrel of gun. Political power grow from plot of land cleared, by shooting people with barrel of gun." )


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So, any official word ( or unofficial word ) when the subscription preorder PDFs will drop?


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I suppose, in theory. . . Recall Knowledge is entirely bringing to memory stuff you already know. Identify Creature might, instead, involve at least some element of judgement and extrapolation. So, you can still Identify Creature even if its a native of a planet no one has ever visited before ( though it'd be at a higher DC ). Success would represent, not prior knowledge, but observation and analysis based in your knowledge of other creatures and biologies. You've never seen a Extrastan Venom Beast before, but you can still extrapolate that the giant stinger is almost certainly venomous, and maybe make guesses about diet and behavior based on other such clues.


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Okay, to phrase this differently:

Do you, honestly, believe that in Starfinder, it is impossible to take an ingot of iron, and hammer it into a knife? Do you believe that it is the intent of the rules that such be impossible?


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Setting aside the possibility of a robot that literally does get enraged, because its capable of feeling anger. . .

Rage for an automaton would likely consist of turning off all the safety interlocks that normally protect the robot from damaging itself. Power consumption rates get cranked up, overheating ignored, motors and pistons all redlined, and any interlocks that would normally shut stuff down on detecting damage disabled. Which is to say, basically the same stuff a human body does when entering a berserk rage.


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. . .I tell them "this is what you recall/suss out about the subject"?


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Which would require accepting that you cannot carve a club from a piece of wood, because no UPBs are involved. Thus, that interpretation is clearly the wrong one. What the first couple clauses are actually intended to mean is:

1. If you want to build something with UPBs, you need its price in UPBs, not less

2. This applies for all types of items, regardless of magic content

It is defining how to work out UPB costs, not forbidding any non-UPB based methods of building stuff.


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Bare in mind that, in Starfinder, most of the demand for gold is for industry or decoration, since nobody uses it for currency. That is going to greatly limit the value of gold by the kilogram, especially with access to inner system and asteroid mining for additional supplies ( compared to medieval mining tech on a habitable world ). Gold might be worth more than one credit per coins-worth, but only until you saturate the local demand, which would probably happen pretty quick ( if the demand were not close to being met, industry would be shipping in more gold as is ). Then your price at the local pawn shop is going to plummet.

This is for bulk gold, mind. Actual gold coins or jewelry may be worth quite a bit more than its "face value", on the collectors' market. This goes especially for coins from Lost Golarion, I imagine, which are perhaps not priceless, but still worth a heck of a lot. Even the coins made of common metals.


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Ditto. It breaks nothing, and is probably one of the underlying assumption used when building the economy of the setting. Why are stores always willing to pay 10% for loot? Because 10% is the minimum value of stuff if broken down into raw UPBs or the equivalent. . . which is what most vendors do with "salvage" sold to them with sketchy provenance by dubious adventuring types. It may be broken, bootleg, cursed, or stolen, but none of that matters much once its been reduced to raw materials by The Grinder.


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Out of curiousity, am I the only one who slightly rewrites covering fire to be "-2 to hit against the next target they attack", removing the requirement to pick a specific person to defend? It seems like an unnecessary restriction.


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I think the lesson today is: when you want to blow a structure up, don't bring grenades, bring satchel charges. ;)

( Which I'm sure will be in Armory, nice big packs of explosives that do a ton of damage, but can't really be wielded as weapons, and have to be properly placed to do good damage. )


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The problem with the radiation rules, as they stand, is that there is literally nothing between "no ambient harm" and "you die, like now". Even Light radiation is not really light by any rational standard, since it will outright kill unprotected people in minutes. This is "walk into an operating nuclear reactor" level radiation.

There really needs to be some modification to the environment rules, to support hazard that operate on scales higher than "round by round". I would probably have radiation checks only occur per round for Severe radiation, and otherwise scaling down to per minute, per hour, and per day, appropriately.


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While its true that mystic strike and such don't do anything about archaic, I wouldn't so quickly assume that powerful magic weapons are guaranteed to have the Archaic property, just because they are old. Some of the things that make 'modern' weapons modern are advanced materials and magical/technomagical enhancements. A Holy Avenger +5 has great heaping amounts of magical enhancement, and probably isn't made of anything resembling ordinary steel by the time its completed.


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The description does not say it eliminates existing traits, so it does not eliminate existing traits.


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I would disagree that its "obvious" the drone is "meant" to be Hacked, in the sense of using the Computers Skill against it directly. A drone is not a Computer, a drone is effectively a creature. You can't hack a creature unless it has some specific explicit vulnerability.

So how can you "hack" a drone? By using an ability that targets automatons of the technology subtype. If you want to "hack" a mechanic's drone, you need more than a high skill bonus. Most said abilities will not involve actual skill checks, but saving throws against mind-affecting results. The various defensive abilities help protect a drone from such.


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Yeah, there's nothing broken about a 10% discount, as long as you prevent infinite loops. Which is to say, yes, its the trade goods that are the concern, not the UPBs. I would allow the PC to get the discount, but if they tried to immediately sell them in the same place ( ie, act in a manner which only makes sense as a mechanical exploit, not real trading ), either:

1. They'd only get back the amount they paid, as the merchants know the famous dude got a discount.

2. They could make their 10% back *once*, and soon they'd have a reputation for exploiting their fame to cheat people. Suddenly no one is offering discounts in this locale anymore.

Fair, non-metagame use of this trait and trade goods would be if one were actually engaged in *trading*: buying goods to sell elsewhere or at a later date, to exploit changes in demand. So, buy on one planet, sell on another. Or buy now, store in a warehouse, sell six months from now. Stuff like that.


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My own interpretation is that, broadly speaking, all quarters are "common" or "good" or "luxury", its just that each category has its own range. A ship of any type might well have a big captain's quarters, a couple rooms for officers, and crew bunks. Its just that on a Common ship, the the captain's room is small, the officers rooms are spartan, and the crew bunks are basically metal racks along a corridor with ratty curtains. On a Luxury ship, the captain's room is a full suite with numerous amenities, the officers rooms are spacious and comfortable, and even the crew bunks have features like "adjustable mattress", "privacy door", and "personal climate control and TV" ( and no hot bunking! ).

Don't forget the other things, too. Crew Quarters are more than beds and bedrooms, they are also bathrooms, mess hall and kitchen facilities, rec rooms, and other common non-working areas. A Common ship will still have most of those things, usually, but they'll be small, spartan, and probably at least partially improvised ( ie, a "rec room" that's just the unused half of a storage bay, with a TV hung on a wall and a couple folding chairs and tables ). A Luxury ship will resemble a resort hotel.


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At least IMO, magically-useful crafting components would be considered trade goods, and "1000 credits worth of magical crafting components" would be an entirely valid 'loot drop' for a powerful monster. You don't need to convert them into UPBs or otherwise sell them for 10%, because their actual intended purpose *is* "to build stuff". And no, not all crafting is done with UPBs, that's silly.

That said, this would *not* be on top of other treasure for an encounter. If a given dragon is worth 20K credits worth of loot, then if its body provides 5000 credits worth of crafting materials, that counts towards the 20K.


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Claxon wrote:
Meh, just say it's physically anchored to the planet and they sue incredibly strong materials to keep everything in place. Materials that they did not create nor have access to more. Sure, such materials would have to be impossibly strong, but the point is you can make up all sorts of reasons to justify this even if the physics say it shouldn't happen.

You know, the setting actually *does* have access to a relatively cheap and easy "indestructible" material: force effects, like Walls of Force. Even at a fairly low level, these can produce structures that are impossible to break with physical force. Its not actually inconceivable that they built the Skydock with a "rod of force" at its core providing all the structural integrity.


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Alternatively, I'd suggest finding a new GM. He/She sounds overly controlling, more than a little. Bluntly, Starfinder is a system built around the idea that most of the time, you can buy stuff you want. Not always, sure, but you should not need special GM dispensation in order to get level-appropriate equipment.


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Ravingdork wrote:
I hate it when GMs change things up too much. It's like, why did we even bother buying a module?

Unless you read the module yourself beforehand, how would you even know?


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Dracomicron wrote:
Kochean wrote:
I personally would like to see a full caster mage type class. While the mystic and Technomancer are nice, i feel they lack the flavor of a full magic using class.
I think that Mystics and Technomancers basically ARE full caster classes, or at least as close as Starfinder is going to get to one. Starfinder developers have made every possible decision to end the tyranny of "full casters."

My question would, as always, be "So, would players actually be willing to tolerate the amount of weaknesses and drawbacks a 'full caster' would require?" After all, if you have stronger spellcasting than a Mystic or Technomancer, you need to give something up for that. So, how does a +10 BAB progression, 4 hit points and stamina points per level, and essentially no extra abilities sound?

And before anyone says "totally worth it for the spells", remember that those spells won't be nearly as broken as in Pathfinder. You won't have nearly as many or as potent buff spells, or save-or-suck attacks, because those don't exist as such anymore. You won't have as many qualitative "I do the impossible" spells, because the available tech options mean that lots of people can pull out stuff like weird 'divination' effects.


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I'd put it more bluntly: read what we are actually saying. We are saying that your GM is either incompetent or evil. There is no such thing as a system that cannot be rendered un-fun if the GM throws 3-4 times as much opposition against you as is intended to be balanced. Its his fault for not reading the rules, specifically the encounter difficulty rules.


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Eh, laser weapons also have their own problems: no other weapon type treats visual concealment as automatic cover as well, and fire resistance is probably the most common energy resistance.


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To put it differently, we have the light level system. It stretches credibility for no good reason that a cheap pair of sunglasses can reduce Bright Light to Normal Light, but can't reduce Normal Light to Dim Light. . . given that is exactly what sunglasses do.

Game balance wise, it means it is easy and cheap for someone to deal with Light Blindness. This only matters if you assume Light Blindness is meant to be a serious hindrance. . . and ignore that "ability to see well is dependent on a worn item" is itself a significant hindrance. Better hope those glasses don't get broken. . . or that you don't find yourself in Bright Light, and your glasses are only good for one level of reduction.


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Given how often Daniel Jackson did weird stuff, honestly, he'd probably be a Mystic. . . ;-)


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
DJEternalDarkness wrote:
I am going with if you have to roll to hit, you get to double the damage, so double negative levels.

Okay, but since this exact line of reasoning was addressed , and the bolded statement was quoted, and there's STILL a question about it...

Why on earth would you think that bolding the statement would mean that its suddenly answered in the rules to the point that you don't even need to comment on it without addressing the underlying point of contention that negative levels are not hit points?

That assumes that "damage = hit points". Which is, again, why I ask "what happens with ability damage?"


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I would tend to assume it has all the standard features, then. Sure, its made of junk, but its made out of junk by magic.


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The Goat Lord wrote:
Icy Grip wrote:


Well I was only cornered by two monkeys but 2 is enough and while I certainly don’t think I should be as good at combat as the soldier I feel like I should able to defeat a single CR1 monster on my own without needing to hit it an average of 5 times. It has half my HP+ stamina, but over twice my to hit and it does nearly double my damage on average. Honestly I would prefer to play a bard, as I feel its a stronger class. No class in this game should ever be relegated to merely support as too much of this game like its predecessor relies on combat. As a bard I never thought to myslef I can’t kill my enemies even at low levels. Your points hwever are well taken. I will certainly discuss my concerns. Most of my fellowplayers do not see the problems, but they play sodiers and an operative and the other two don’t seemingly care about the glaring issues.

I understand.

One thing to keep in mind is that a CR 1 creature is designed to be an average challenge for a party consisting of four level 1 PCs. If you are only level 1 and face a CR 1 creature, that is going to be quite a challenge, especially for your Envoy build. If you are level 2 and are alone against a CR 1 creature, that is still going to be tough to overcome. It won't be until you have several levels under your belt before you're going to be dropping CR 1 creatures with a single shot from a small arm. Defeating a CR 1 creature alone in less than 5 hits is something most non-soldier/solarion/operative builds will struggle with.

As a first approximation, you can use the "multiple opponents" rules in reverse, and guess that a single opponent vs a single PC is roughly equivalent in difficulty to CR +4 ( if four NPCs = +4 vs the CR of one of them; one PC when their should be four is about the same ). Note that this logic means one level X PC vs one CR X NPC is a Beyond Epic encounter ( CR +4 ), which fits; two identical foes should result in a fight where the outcome is a coin toss at best and whoever wins is probably seconds from collapsing too.

Thus, once again. . . A CR 3 hero, even under favorable circumstances, should not be expecting to have a fun time fighting off several CR 1 opponents. A single CR 1 enemy taken solo is the equivalent of a CR 5 encounter for a team. CR +2 fights are not easy, and not supposed to be easy.


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The Ragi wrote:
Metaphysician wrote:
If your picking an archetype to make yourself stronger, either you or Paizo is doing it wrong in the first place.

That's how many of them worked in Pathfinder.

Well, yes. That's why I say "either you or Paizo". In those cases, the one doing it wrong was Paizo. ;)


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Why not? Light Sensitivity is defined in its mechanical effects. Why exactly would an item that specifically deals with those mechanical effects, not help with said weakness? Is there something special about the "low light level" produced by a pair of sun glasses that somehow drow eyes "magically" respond to it differently than any other low light level?


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"I adventure with science" is more than adequately covered by the Operative class. Its the exact thing for genius polymaths. At most, it needs a couple more specializations to cover slightly less "traditional rogue" uses.


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One way to adjudicate: is ability damage doubled? If it is, energy drain probably should, too.


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If your picking an archetype to make yourself stronger, either you or Paizo is doing it wrong in the first place. Archetypes should not be stronger than the base class, merely different.


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Bear in mind that "average" is deceptive in this context. CR +0 encounters may be "average" difficulty, in that they are neither especially easy nor especially hard. However, they probably won't mathematically be the middle of the encounter difficulty distribution. For that to be the case, there would need to be roughly as many CR -1, -2, and -3 encounters, as there are CR +1, +2, and +3.

This is essentially never going to happen, because anything less than -1 isn't even worth rolling out, nor is it actually worth much or any reward. In practice, if the logic of the scenario would have a whole lot of really low CR encounters, I imagine most GMs would either drop them as unimportant, or combine them together into fewer, more challenging ( and less cumbersome ) encounters. Instead of four separate fights with a single CR 1 pirate, have one fight with all four, for a CR 5 encounter. Or turn the whole thing into challenge scenario where the low level opponents are more an environmental complication than an enemy.

Long story short? In the "average" campaign, the encounters-til-level will probably be a lot lower than the "average", because there are going to be a lot more CR +3 fights pulling the XP total up, than CR -3 fights pulling it down.

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