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Life as an evil mastermind ruling over the feeble minds of walking meatbags feels awfully good. Knowledge itself has a delicate taste that you could only begin to experiment the day your tongue is forcefully disconnected from your spine. The iodized electricity that runs around my jar is a permanent call to ecstasy, prompting synaptic fireworks that show me the deepest secrets and rules of the universe.
Fiddling with those to create, bend and amaze the living and the not-so-living is just the icing on the cake. Why, with such power, should I miss the icy breeze of the wind on my skin in summer, the eye-melting sight of a sunrise over the ocean, the unfathomable stench of perfume on a woman ?
... god I miss my body.
Er... no. As a general rule of thumb when it comes to archetype design, you are supposed to swap like for like. That's what every designer has said when asked for advice on building archetypes. Sometimes it's Ok to swap it for something else, but you should try not to increase it's overall power.
When doing an archetype, you actually increase its overall power, at least when focused on a single gaming style or build... and few characters focus in several fighting or adventuring styles anyways, since doing a single thing really well means you are more useful 80% of the time and you will have a much harder challenge the remaining 20% compared to the vanilla class which always tends toward more versatility and balance than archetypes. The Cognatogen/bombing alchemist is clearly superior to the vanilla alchemist damage-wise, but he is also much more reliant on a damage source that can be easily negated or resisted against : bombs.You don't have to replace abilities like for like. You can grant offensive abilities instead of crafting feats, or talents instead of spell-like abilities as long as it grants you nice and fun powers fitting the archetype's theme. You just have to make sure your archetype doesn't invalidate its base class or any other class (something the Knight archetype sadly is doing in ACG), usually by adding a tactical component to your strongest boosts over the vanilla class for a nice risk-reward mechanic.
The Lore Warden can deal damage just as well as the basic fighter can, and it's also better than the Fightr at all combat maneuvers. If he does it right, he'll have nearly the same AC as the Fighter, more skill points, and more combat potential.
The fighter still rules AC and damage over the Lore Warden, especially if put against target resistant to his maneuvers. While strong and much more interesting to play, I find the Lore Warden strikes a nice balance between a lot of meh archetypes for a class that already needs all the help it can get at mid-to-high levels.
Some time ago, I wrote a full set of grit-like powers for fighters, granting cool abilities covering pretty much any type of weapons you could fight with as a fighter : general, circumstancial, and weapon-based abilities (mounted, ranged, shield, free hand, two-handed...).
We tested them in our group and it granted a much needed touch of heroism and tactical insight when playing a fighter ! I think the class would benefit from such a feature, much like gunslingers have grit and deeds.
Natan Linggod 327 wrote:
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD."
Natan Linggod 327 wrote:
Pretty cool and nicely balanced, I like the idea of switching between two stances and having wild pikes of efficiency when doing so.
Just a bit on the weak side IMHO. (I would have granted the dodge bonus as a morale bonus to all attack rolls with the base offensive style (competence bonus means it doesn't stack with bardic performance, which badly hurts a class relying on a lot of attacks), along with a defensive option to double it for one round instead. No bonus to CMD as dodge bonuses already apply to your full CMD.
Alexander Close wrote:
The Drakker makes reference to the Mounted Heroism feat... but i cant actually find such a feat. What is it?
I hope you enjoy the book ! Mounted Heroism is a Dragon Rider feat in the 101 Renegade Class Feats supplement which basically allows you to switch places at lightning speed with a helpless creature in close range when mounted on your draconic steed.
The feat was mentioned to show the intended compatibility and synergy between Steven D. Russel's previous 101 Renegade Class Feats and this supplement. Ideally, I wanted this supplement to blend perfectly with any other of the Renegade series and bring only new ideas, while retaining the great value of already available rules. Likely, the other archetypes in this supplement can use their class-dedicated feats from "101" (armiger, etc.).
The future Secrets of Renegade Archetypes II will follow the same logic. ;)
Caradwen: if you go the archery route, you'll first need the Arcane Strike feat. This feat alone will increase your damage by +1 per arrow, then +2 at 5th level, then +3 at 10th.
But with stats like yours I'm afraid you'll have a hard time feeling efficient in combat. Arcane duelist wouldn't help much, especially if it breaks the character concept.
Weird words is an incredibly potent damage-dealing option - you'll be looking a 6 attacks dealing each 1d8+Charisma modifier on a hit. Each of them is treated as a ray that deals typed damage reduced by DR, so Arcane Strike would work too since rays are weapons. Only problem is this ability comes at 6th level, and by the time you'll have specialized in archery maybe (unless you don't take Rapid Shot and Manyshot at all).
/Says the argument is gargabe but just proves it anyway by confirming the summoner is OP and the synthesist must be dealt with through cheap tricks like Antimagic Field in order to be balanced.
There is so much wrong in this thread. I could insert a long rant, but I'll not follow the ass wagon and just remember people reading this that all your arguments and those of synthesist defenders since the beginning of this thread can be resumed to:
- "my opinion is better than yours"
I don't need to justify myself or defend the skills of my group's DM ; neither do other people who just like us ban the synthesist.
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
Guys, guess what, the regular summoner can give his eidolon hp AND cast rejuvinate eidolon on top of that. Hence making your entire argument that synthesists are overpowered to be complete garbage.
Nope, it just proves the summoner itself is even more powerful. I hope you at least recognize that just because you will burn your hand in a 200°C liquid does not mean it is COMPLETE GARBAGE to suppose a 150°C liquid can be pretty hot as well. Also, I was hoping thinly veiled condescension could stay far away from this thread after the first page.
But back to the topic: a vanilla summoner himself can at least be targeted more easily in order to challenge him without resorting to cheap tricks based on totally negating its powers or utterly screwing the player. And while it is both a potent damage dealer and spellcaster, it remains less powerful than a dedicated class, unlike the synthesist who overshadows barbarians and fighters in a pinch. Hence : more versatility, yet better balance.
"Short of a walking wall that does little damage"
You'd be surprised how damage can stack nicely when you TWF with a fighter, especially when you get to 11th level and spam Bashing Finish with your main 15-20 scimitar.Before then, just pick a quick draw shield and TH your main/draw shield/shield bash/TH your main/draw shield/shield bash.
Or hey, if you want a high AC monk, try a snapping turtle Tetori : a 20 Wis/16 Dex grants you 10 + 5(wis) + 3(Dex) + 3(monk with robe) + 4(bracers of armor) + 4(barkskin) + 2(deflection) + 2(shield) + 4(with a Ki point) = 37/25/22 AC.
Taason the Black wrote:
For that matter, explain how any class short of a walking wall that does little damage can have a 40 ac at lv 10.
10 + 5 (+3 Light bashing shield w/Shield Focus) + 13 (+4 Full plate w/Defender of the Society trait) + 2 (natural AC amulet) + 2 (Deflection ring) + 3 (Dexterity).
= 35/15/32 AC.
Add in fighting defensively for +3 to AC, up to +6 with a Halfling (small sized + racial feat) :
= 38/18/32 AC. (41/21/33 halfling)
So, I was wondering.
What happens if a creature provokes an attack of opportunity by attacking you, and you disarm that creature before its attack is resolved ?
- The attack continues but the creature must now perform its results with an unarmed strike (or gauntlet, if any)
Thanks for the honor of suggesting my name Endzeitgeist, especially by including me among so many talented big names of the industry !
Interjection Games wrote:
I wonder what it would take to get Rich Burlew to put the Dashing Swordsman in this thing.
Incidentally, I may have some WIP for Dreadfox Games's great Swordmaster class in The Secrets of Renegade Archetypes II. Something based on Charisma and awesomeness...
Yes it does actually : "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.".
I brought Haste in because Titania suggested that the synthesist's elemental attacks shouldn't be nerfed if all other characters using elemental attacks aren't.
Titania, the Summer Queen wrote:
Sure. Everyone knows a flaming weapon you swing up to twice per round is gamebreaking and should be nerfed as hard as the one using it 4/5 times per round before the haste at the same level.We are silly for suggesting such a nerf and not applying it to the most OP classes of all times, aka melee combatants with elemental weapons.
Dreadfox Games's Swordmaster has a pretty awesome mechanic similar to deeds : the Dex/Int class knows specific actions that it may perform in combat and gains more of them as it levels. Basically each round, he may spend his round's action to start a customized combo out of openers/chain/finishers melee moves activated with different conditions and actions.
That's pure love for skilled players and pretty much what everyone wants the swashbuckler to feel like. It's like having a class with only deeds that can be used together in differents fashions and actually synergize together, allowing for highly mobile fights.
And going back to your previous post on Cha-INSTEAD-of-Wis-to-WIll saves, I would like to hear your thoughts on why you would take Wisdom out of the equation. Also, keep in mind I will be throwing the "But replacing Str with Dex for damage apparently marginalizes Str too much" point back at you if you cannot sell me on why making Wisdom add to nothing but skill checks is a reasonable option. At least Str would still be needed to carry a sword and get to PA. I'm all for making Charisma more desirable, but having a stat with almost no penalty for tanking (sort of like Charisma now) does not seem like a good idea to me.
- Because the swashbuckler as written badly needs a dump stat to become less MAD- Because "Wisdom" is the last quality I would associate with any swashbuckler ever
- Because even Wis-based skills don't fit with the thematic
- Because the fighter can basically dump Int and Charisma without much prejudice
- Because "resisting mental control out of sheer pride" is awesome and swashbuckl-ey
Since I want the classes I play to not be incredibly MAD, to have mechanics fitting their thematic, to actually feel like the way they are supposed to be, and plainly be awesome, I rhknk you'll unserstand the fil rouge behind my mind on objective AND subjective reasons to make Wisdom a Swash dump stat the same way I want my gunslingers to have accute senses ans son't want my barbarians to be intelligent.
... because we think of what we'd like in a swashbuckler in the final version, not the current one, which has already been proven to miss what the class should ultimately feel like.
The swash needs to be primarily Cha and Dex based, though we should be able to play off PA or Dervish Dance or a rapier and a buckler or TWF or a pickaxe without being crippingly gimped one way or another.
So I guess you were just trading them out because they are too weak? Because it sounds like replacing CHA for WIS on Will saves would also work against charms... Quite frankly, I would rather see Cha and Wis added to Will saves so that I'm not rewarded for tanking Wisdom the same way I am currently rewarded for tanking Charisma. Take away the Wis bonus to saves and you will see a lot of Wis 7 swashbucklers.
Way to shorten my whole argument into fallacies - you may note I was the first to post in this thread, in between I put quite some time explaining what I'd like out of a swashbuckler, that includes recognizing the class needs better ST (my suggestion : Will as a low save but using Cha as its bonus and Ref-swap, more about this later)
To answer your question:
- on all saves if this a stand-alone ability and the swash has low will progression (solving some issues at mid-to-high level and making Cha more important)
But even with the second option, I wouldn't want additional bonuses against what I feel are thematic weaknesses for the class, the same way a cumulative bonus to Fort would be lame for a wizard.
Considering how it went in previous playtests, and since the designers's job is to design things (not read the boards and copy-paste the suggestions from people that may or may not at all get the concept of balance or theme right), I'd say the more we try to write the thing ourselves, the least the final result will deliver to our expectations.
Just consider one of the only things we know about the future playtest version : people complained about Parry/Riposte being both "weak", "too random", "much too hard to use" and "requiring a feat just to use it".
I trust Paizo for the job, but I honestly get the feeling than the most we point toward cool deeds and ask for improvement in the others, the most we'll get the cool deeds leveled down to a lower bland baseline for the sake of simplicity.
I think some of us have major divergent opinions on what the swashbuckler should be and feel like.
I've seen suggestions to add bonuses to saving throws against Charm and Alcohol/Drugs/Poisons, for example - but I must object to this idea. I have to say that if it was implemented, I would immediately ignore these bonuses and even swap them if possible for an archetype.
A swashbuckler SHOULD get drunk, charmed, easily influenced and reckless enough to get involved in dangerous situations ; because that's what makes fun and interesting things happen, and cool/daring abilities being used.
(Hence why I suggested Cha-instead-of-Wis to Will saves to represent the strength of personality ; and a limited amounts of daily Reflex saves instead of Will and Fortitude saves to represent the slippery bugger.)
But again, let's just wait for the next playtest document. As of now the swashbuckler is one of the coolest ACG classes but it still needs some tinkering.
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
So telling a player he should remove his crazy OP character for the sake of everyone's fun around the table is BADWRONG unimaginative noob GMing ; but screwing him in any possible fashion by using the cheapest tricks in the book to prove you can win (it's black friday, dominate, coups de grâce, banishment and negative levels for everyone !) anytime you want is proof of imagination and good DMing ?
Yeah. Sure. It's so balancing and fun to get from "crazy OP" to "dead or killing his party" in a single turn.
Gwen Smith wrote:
^ So much this. The system can get complicated enough not to begin with Advanced Classes.
- Don't allow the Summoner for newbies.
Let's just wait for the next playtest guys, I think there have been more than enough suggestions already, and the issues we know need/will be granted revisions have been highlighted enough that we can hope they will be taken into account.
No need to continue filling with thread until the next playtest pdf unless we have playtest experiences to share (I don't, because as indicated in the first 100 messages, I got stuck way too many times when trying to simply BUILD a character).
Already said it a thousand times, but I'd rather keep Precise Strike and have cool abilities to match damage and synergize with critical hits - especially for non-conventional weapons. There are tons of ways to make Dex and Cha more important without adding it do damage.If my last posts showed how someone with a bit of game design experience could get around the current issues with cool balanced features, be sure that a professional Paizo designer can do it better if wants to (and I'd enjoy that over a lifeless Dex-to-damage).
Silly, a swashbuckler always fails againt charm effects by design !
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Lol yeah, so basically I stole it without even knowing it, sorry !With 1000+ posts I think this thread has already received all the swashbuckler feedback needed for the class to become the ACG's most awesome.
Sure. The idea would be to make it so that you don't need to pick Power Attack at all. The wording makes it possible to still pick it though.
You could absolutely pick Str and PA and still use a precise thrust - though you would have a reduced precision damage bonus when wielding your weapon in two hands and thus a reduced tactical damage output.
6th level, 20 Dex, +1 rapier in one hand, tactical hit (-2/+6):
6th level, 20 Dex, +1 scimitar in two hands, PA + tactical hit (-2/+4):
=> The PA build deals 4 more damage for -2 to attack (exactly the balance of PA !) ; he would still need 13 Str and 1 feat AND 1 panache for this attack roll, meaning he would be less versatile in other areas. This bonus damage can be multiplied on a crit, making the deal even more of a high-risk/high-reward style for brute swashbucklers.
This way it's balanced for mini-maxers and newbies alike because it's both simpler, stronger against low AC yet less abusable.
Ok mates, hear me out about this because I just got a cool suggestion that could please everyone.
Since the major complains are about :
... then what if the swashbuckler received his own version of PA based on Dexterity right at 1st level ? Something like :
=> This version allows TWFing by halving the base bonuses between your weapons.=> While more versatile than Power Attack (its penalties and benefits only apply to a single attack roll and you control the exact penalty to your attack rolls when using the deed) and costing 1 less feat, it doesn't pigeonhole builds in Strength and still has a hefty panache cost, plus it doesn't apply to all attacks on your round unless you burn through all your panache to cover a single full-attack.
=> This option grants a versatile, tactical Power Attack mechanic that instead of granting x2 precision bonus to damage, instead deals damage multipliable on a crit so the ability complements the style.
=> It's written in such a way that you can only achieve it by having a high enough Dex modifier.
This agile "Power Attack" actually feels right for the class !
The whole use-Reflex-for-other-saving-throws could be a double deed for mid-to-high levels :
Also, I really like your ideas too SmiloDan ! Dex to damage rewarding mobility is a great concept IMHO.Replacing Bravery with an AoO would allow the Parry/Riposte deed to get efficient sooner (though it could still benefit from a lesser panache cost).
Lots of good stuff
I really like all these suggestions mixed together. They make for a quite enjoyable picture of how the class should play like. Kudos for noting the issues about Targeted Strike - it could be great to perform this deed when you only get a single attack roll during your round instead of the current full-round action.
Swashbucklers don't need to be wise, they need to be awesome, not learn from their mistakes and get easily out of the trouble they put themselves in. I don't mind having 7 Wisdom and Intelligence, because I don't want to be wise or learn things besides sweet-talking and dueling. When getting in trouble with a big dumb barbarian over a beer, a swashbuckler won't think "Dear god, taunting that muscled gentleman for spilling his spirituous beverage would be unwise of me".They'll say "Sorry avout your drink, mate ! But... let's be honest, it was wasted on your damn ugly mug.".
I can totally picture Charisma to Will saves : "Come on, myself ! I said no to a pretty woman last night, I can say no to this creepy dude who raises litteral bones because he can't raise the most important one !"
What I'd like to see is a way to perform Reflex saves instead of Fort/Will saves. You just dodge so fast the poison doesn't get into your bloodstream, or the magic essence manipulated in the Suggestion spell just doesn't work how it was supposed to because you empty awesome brain isn't there anymore. Add in a Bluff check to make it seem as if the spell just succeeded and you're golden :D
"Die !" - *Wizard casts Suffocation*
About the whole Str vs Dex argument :
I don't mind the class being forced into Dex and Cha.
Maybe there could be a Braggard-style archetype rewarding the 2H-ded longsword/dueling aldori sword style with deeds that don't suffer limitation regarding the handleness of the sword ?
Immediate action riposte means at best once/round, but that's significant enough and at least doesn't require Combat Reflexes to be used at full efficiency.
Alone, this could go against the idea of making the class more Dex-oriented even though removing a feat tax to use the class feature is cool... unless you indeed revise the panache cost.
Quick question :
Also, question to playtesters :
Recovery: Looks good on a gunslinger, why not a melee character? Honestly, the worst part of this deed is Opportune Parry--seems like if I'm going to spend a panache to save myself, I'm probably better off betting on my attack roll over 2 extra AC. I'd rather replace this with Gunslinger's Dodge. Never going to use this.
Let's say the BBEG scary hasted martial artist 5-foot steps into an adjacent square and begins to flurry/Power Attack/Dragon Style your face. Parrying all these Mike Tyson kisses will not get you out of trouble all day long.
Well, this deed instead basically grants you a +2 bonus to AC against the highest BAB attack, AND lets you get out of range off the itteratives because you are now 5 feet away from the guy who just used his 5 foot step already to get adjacent to you in the first place.
I'm saying yet again that I DO want Dex- and Cha- based swashbucklers. But ideally, each choice of weapons or combat style should come with its own penalties. For example :
- Dervish Dance would grant Dex to damage as it already does. But you couldn't wield a shield, Power Attack unless you also put points in Str or 2H PA unless you also sacrifice Dex to damage.
- Rapiers would be the simplest, most effective weapon to use all day long right at 1st level, allowing to wield a buckler or off-hand weapon. => Average permanent damage unless you invest in Specialization early, average spike damage, high AC, high panache regeneration.
- High-crit modifiers weapons could benefit from a deed granting them a potential critical hit on their next one-handed attack roll. This mechanic has precedence in the game and would reward high risk/high reward combat styles ; plus the spike damage wouldn't hurt that much as long as you don't add +5 to damage right from a Dex modifier.
- Other one-handed weapons like the Longsword or the aldori dueling sword would allow to 2H wield them, thus making Power Attack a potent damage boost when out of panache despite their lower crit range.
- Light weapons would be usable in more situations and as off-hand.
EACH of these builds would be based off Dex and Cha. The only ones with an interest in putting 13 Str would be the one-and-a-half-hander with longsword/dueling sword and the TWFing one to stack damage outputs. If you make Str or Dex modifier not stack with Precise Strike for example, you basically make 10 Str not an issue, and 13 Str would become a point-buy tax leading to Power Attack, so you have the CHOICE to pick that or not at the expense of lower skill points, hit points or Will saves induced by putting 3 more points in an ability score that will have no use except for your carrying capacity and some other skills.
You currently complain that swashbucklers are too similar to Dex-based fighters. Cool then, all the more reasons to focus on deeds granting awesome, unique tricks as the Swashbuckler's real deal and schtick, instead of begging for swashbucklers to basically be fighters based on Dex. You complain about fighters being the same yet basically want exactly that : a Dex fighter.
Right now the swashbuckler's deeds still need some work (panache cost too high for Parry/Riposte ; a mobility option akin to the mobile fighter ; maybe a critical hit button with a high panache cost, etc). Likewise, if the swashbuckler wants to remain relevant at his job without being inredibly feat starved and MAD, it needs a way to ignore some prerequisites of thematic dueling feats - namely the 13 Int, Combat Expertise and Dodge prerequisites. For the latter I'd like a way to treat Nimble as Dodge for the prerequisites of feats. I already have a +1 dodge bonus to AC, I don't want to take a feat tax when I already fill both the fluff and crunch of the following feat branch.
Also, no, you don't get to 2H piercing weapons with precise strike. The wording is clear in both execution and intent :
a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to her damage roll. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield.
"With a one-handed piercing melee weapon" means you only do that on a one-handed weapon, not a weapon wielded in two hands which would become two-handed. Likewise, wielding a 2H weapon in one hand makes it count as a one-handed weapon.
"A swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand" : if you are two-handed, you are wielding a weapon in your other hand, even if its the same as your off-hand's. Even by stretching the RAW it's obvious you're not supposed to 2H this weapon and I'm sure we can expect a clearer wording in the final document.
Way to use overly dramatic straw-men.
I guess the fact Parry is based on multiple AoOs (and thus, high Dex) ; that your AC is determined by Dex ; that you are limited to light armors meaning you need Dex to both have good AC and Touch AC ; that your attack bonus is based on Dex ; that Reflex are based on Dex ; that Acrobatics and a lot of other useful skills are based on Dex ; that all of these mean nothing in making the final Swashuckler a Dex based class because it doesn't also add this modifier to damage.
Gee, I do suppose giving XXX to damage is the only way to design a class around using an ability score now. And here I thought the hours I spent in my free time writing public houserules, including some nicely-rated paid works for 3PP gave me a little bit on insight on the whole "writing cool class features for Pathfinder classes balanced around a theme and going beyond simple damage" thing.
The current Swashbuckler suffers issues and would benefit from really being re-focused on Dexterity ; but saying that it NEEDS to add it to damage for it to be the major ability score ? No, it doesn't NEED TO.
Maybe it could get more use out of Dex-based skills. Deeds with saving throws based on Dex. Performing Reflex saving throws instead of Fort/Will a limited amount of times per day. Adding Dex to confirm critical hits with high-crit modifier/low-crit range weapons. A way to also deflect missiles with a Reflex save or AoO. All of these increase drastically the importance of Dex. None add Dex to damage.
You indeed missed my point. I'll explain myself in clearer terms : I'm not against Dex-to-damage because I want to be able to do Str-based/Cha-dumped swashbucklers. At all.
Quite the total opposite : what I'd like to be able to do with a swashbuckler is to create agile and charismatic characters, whose fighting styles are different and each rewarding and gimping in their own way. Look at the fighter : if you build a TWFing fighter, it's likely you'll dump your feats into it, leaving not much for saving throws or mobility. Likewise, building a pure THF will leave much to be desired for your AC and versatility when grappled.
Now let's take a look at the current swashbuckler's basics :
- you are expected to fight with high Dexterity because of the concept (fluff), Swash Finesse and AoO-based deeds (crunch)
With that in mind, let's take a look at the weapons which will be absolute no-brainers for any swashbuckler :
- Rapier : 1d6 18-20x2, finesseable, allows for shield in off hand. Highest damage dice and crit range.
Why are you shoe-horned into these choices ?
- Wielding any other lower crit-range weapon drastically reduces your income of Panache points, which you will need to perform your class features.
Now, granting Dex to damage for all weapons would mean this damage would be multiplied on a crit, so the rapier and scimitar become even more no-brainers, especially if the later can still be wielded one-handed.
There are simple solutions to this issue :
Ideally, I'd like to be able to play a swashbuckler who can wield a rapier and a buckler, a scimitar with a free hand, a finesseable longsword with Power Attack, two weapons, or a sword-and-cloak.
And Dex to damage alone as a solution would only shoe-horn all swashbucklers into wielding rapiers and scimitars.
Even though a lot of people ask for Dex-to-damage, I hope again it will not be one of the major revisions to the class. Because as stated and argued multiple times, this addition would only pigeon-hole the whole class into the same damn builds, and there is no need for that considering we already have tools to make the swashbuckler a versatile class.
Precise Strike feels awesome, and I wonder how balanced it would be to just let it multiply on a crit. I get the feeling it will be nerfed by the inclusion of Dex-to-damage, reducing yet again the current coolness factor of the class.
=> But here is an idea I'm wondering about : what if Precise Strike granted a bonus to all damage rolls equal to your level, not stacking with Str and Dex modifiers to damage rolls, although multipliable on a crit ; and spending 1 point of panache didn't double this bonus to damage, but did grant you instead a critical hit that you should then confirm on your next attack roll ?
- This revision would allow a greater average damage output when not spending panache thanks to the multipliable bonus...
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Because it isn't a fighter's "Weapon Training" ; it is a Swashbuckler's "Swashbuckler Weapon Training".There may have been a clarification since then or it may have been overlooked, but since the APG, all class features treated as the base feature they replace have a clarification similar to : "XXX is treated as a ZZZ's XXY for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of feats or magic items". I'd be happy to learn otherwise with the appropriate FQ ruling though.
Prince of Knives wrote:
You should say that to Dervish Bard, the Unarmed Fighter, or the Master of Many Styles/Maneuver Master Monks.Multiclassing isn't cheesy, but having classes in the ruleset whose class features are so crippling/weak/uninteresting in comparison to their iconic front powers that they give no incentive to go over 2nd level in them is not desirable, and encourages mini-maxers into abusive builds.
Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benef it of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every four levels beyond 5th level (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level).
It doesn't mention working or being treated in any way like a fighter's weapon training. There may be a line about hybrid classes I missed though.
It's precision damage that doesn't multiply on a crit in a crit-based class and basically the only source of damage output in the current build, outside of Power Attack or Str-modifier (and the later will probably be heavily corrected in the future itteration anyways since it doesn't fit the class's concept and fluff).
The Swash cannot get Gloves of Dueling and thus loses +2 to attack and damage right there at mid-to-high level.
Ellis Mirari wrote:
A swashbuckler can already debuff attack rolls and saving throws as a swift action - your AoO-based combo team and spellcasting allies will love you. He will also receive deeds to disarm or trip enemies. He has more skill points than a fighter, better face potential to defuse situations or deal with them in a clever way. He will have much better AC than damage-dealing fighters and probably more mobility.
All the swashbuckler needs is damage good enough to reliably get treated as a foe worth dealing with. Not equal damage. I'm fine with a fighter dealing 50 DPR and an average swashbuckler (best crit range, huge AC, good amount of panache and cool powers, good skills, party face) dealing 35 DPR.
EDIT: But this requires to take into account right now for the designers how to balance the benefits of Dervish Dance and Power Attack against each other choice. The whole "Precise Strike doesn't stack with Str and Dex bonuses" is one way to do that but there may be others.
If you have at least a 14 cha like Debbie here, that's never going to be worth a feat slot. You can coast by just fine on just the two points. If you have anything less than 14 cha, you are given at least the 1 freebie point, which is almost all you need. Take a single feat and you can dump what feels like it should be the second most important stat for the class to no adverse effect. Honestly, I'd even suggest removing that "(minimum 1)." Probably want to replace it with a note about not bottoming out from temporary penalties/cha damage though.
I don't understand why you feel the actual, current playtest's swashbuckler has enough panache already. Just to parry and counterattack, you need 2 points, and doing that effectively neuters your damage output if you haven't at least 16 Cha.
How would you find the place to pick 1 more panache point with a feat under the current incredibly starved ruleset ?
Am I actually providing any valuable feedback with this? I'm sinking a lot of time into this test, and really trying my best to play the class as best I can, but I haven't really heard any dev chatter related to any of what I'm pulling out of this, one way or the other. Not sure if I'm getting drowned out by all the theoretical math and gut feeling takes, or I was written off the minute I put down 9 str, or there's just more to discuss with the other classes or what.
I'm pretty sure a single post of playtest such as this one is more valuable than all of our previous posts discussing game design and balance. ;)
To this though I must yet again countergument vehemently.
2. Cha bonus to all saves at 2nd level would be too good, especially for the purposes of people dipping two levels and continuing with another class.
4. And yet again I really cannot understand this logic at all. Why would you shoe-horn the class into a highly limited choice of builds and weapons ("Oh, you're playing a swashbuckler and want to know how to play it ? Just pump dex and pick Dervish Dance and Power Attack because all other options will make you suck hard at your job."), when we definitely have the opportunity right now to help design a class that allows for a wide variety of characters, efficient at their job, versatile in their builds and tactics and fun to play ? What does it bring to everyone's table if your class can only be built in a single fashion if it wants to survive adventures ?
I know that. All the more reasons to limit the swashbuckler to piercing weapons PLUS thematic weapons (whip, net) and specific swords (considering the Dueling Sword can be wielded as a longsword without the exotic proficiency, let's hope you will be able to wield a longsword with the swashbuckler too).
But, and follow me here : NOT INCLUDING THE SCIMITAR.
A swashbuckler could effectively wield a scimitar to use his class abilities as soon as he got Dervish Dance, turning the slashing into piercing and thus into a fit weapon.
Why do this ? To broaden the usefulness of underused swords like the longsword and allow for a greater variety of weapons choice, something the magus lacks painfully because the scimitar is an obvious choice. Here, we have the opportunity to get a built-in safety mesure to mechanically make several builds viable and grant maximum versatility in character choices - a philosophy that made Paizo one of the leaders in the marketn and the most appreciated D&D ruleset.
Obviously I agree 100% with the first part because I was the poster that come up with the idea of having the precise strike replace strength (or dexterity with dervish dance).
Beat you to it with my second post in this thread actually :p
I am not so sure about the critical multiplier idea. I could get behind giving x3 and x4 bonus 1 and 2 panache but I do not think longsword or shortsword should just get free 18-20x2 critical.
I just noticed this now, but if going the route we're pushing for, the longsword wouldn't even need this greater critical range.It would be one the most balanced choices for a Power Attacking swashbuckler thanks to the ability to be wielded two-handed, the damage dice and 17-20 final critical modifier, improving the chances to recover grit with a killing blow, even if at the expense of reducing recober by critical hits.
Come on Paizo, that's obviously the miraculous answer :o))
Also : using the "level to damage not stacking with Dex/Str modifier" suggestion, a Dervish Dancing swashbuckler with a +6 Dex modifier would deal better damage on average until 12th level...
... which is also the level where the swashbuckler receives a bonus feat AND may retrain one of his other feats, like Dervish Dance. This number rises to 14th level with +7, or 16th with +8 modifier, rewarding highly Dextrous character builds.
So Dervish Dance would effectively become a choice that will be useful without being a no-brainer prerequisite for all swashbucklers, and can be changed for another feat when its utility is no longer assured - useful for the utter majority of campaigns played, since the part of 12-20 levels campaigns is significantly lower than those played between 1-12. Fun thing is that it would also balance Dervish Dancing against other weapon choices - Dervish Dance would be the way to go for the ability to stay efficient and deadly all the time and allowing you to burn all your panache quickly ; Str-based builds would be a balance between damage and AC at the cost of touch AC/overall MADness ; Dex-based builds would be more tactical and require to manage efficiently your Panache, but would come with great AC, chances to hit, evasion and cool average damage.