Matthew Vincent's page

Character: Mamodia, Olman cohort cleric11
Adventure: City of Broken Idols
Location: Taboo Island temple (room 30)
Catalyst: 3 Hezrou demons

The constant, repeated of effects of Blasphemy, Chaos hammer, Unholy blight and 3 Hezrou stenches *every round* horribly incapacitated everyone in the party and nearly resulted in a TPK.

Unfortunately, the cohort was the only one that could cast teleport (i.e. he was their ride home).

I, while improving, came up with a sort of amalagrim of styles, trying to convey that it wasn't a very good ship.

Yup... a barely seaworthy amalgam of bits from other wrecks and repairs made from driftwood... but it has 'character' (you could still use whatever deckplan or model you have available though).

Make the figurehead something notable, especially since
<spoiler>
Charon will be putting coins on the figurehead's eyes in a later chapter.

Maybe the 'hellfish' figurehead is a dessicated husk of something the pirates found washed ashore, like a: direshark, mantaray, aboleth corpse, giant crab (sHellfish... get it :), etc.

My own group took over the Stygian shark (after losing their own ship in the naval battle with the crimson fleet)... which will be a perfect name when they start sailing the Styx.

Outsiders are often (but not always) immortal/ageless. The intent of couatls appears to almost certainly fall into the ageless category.

Note that in 4e, the "outsider" sub-type will be essentially replaced with the "immortal" sub-type.

Are the PCs intended to receive an XP award for successfully interacting with the couatl in the rakasta temple? It doesn't explicitly state so

Really? Hm... I coulda sworn it stated this.

would like to know if that was the intent, or if other DMs have done that.

I did. It'd be a shame if PC's that went around attacking couatls got to level up quicker.

nowhere does it say that number of attacks should remain static.

Actually, nowhere does it make provisions for advanced monsters to gain extra natural attacks. This has already been double-checked against other examples, and against MonsterForge.

Mind you: if the Deinosuchus was armed with a manufactured weapon (like a Big brAss Sword), then it *would* gain iterative attacks based on its BAB.

The Deinosuchus' attacks are listed as Bite OR Tail Slap. Since they are Natural Attacks, shouldn't it get both with the tail slap being -5? If it is only getting one of them, shouldn't it get reiterative attaacks since his bab is +18?

Nope. The Deinosuchus is essentially just giant crocodile that has been advanced using the standard Improving Monsters rules. As such, they don't gain additional attacks.

To compare, take a look at a regular T-Rex. 13 BAB, but only one attack.

he made the mistake of stopping in the air just 10' above the beastie's reach.

...turns out that a critter with a strength of 32 can make a DC 20 standing jump pretty handily.

Er... the DC for a 10' standing long jump is 20, but the DC for a standing high jump is 80.

... not that I would let that get in the way of a good time (... for T-T ;).

Me too: matthew_vincent@yahoo.com

Given its usefulness against evil outsiders (particularly since they get no saving throw and no SR) and the frequency of same in this AP, Holy Storm seems like an excellent battlefield-shaping spell for use in the Savage Tide, especially as it's just 3rd level.

Agreed. Especially with a lesser rod of maximization (or empower). Although your opponents would likely just exit the area after the first round (if allowed), this can be devastating when combined with wall spells, closed in areas, an enlarged spiked chain tripper, etc.

Still, if your opponents tend to last about 3 rounds, some people like the simplicity of the good ol' fireball (especially if they have high DC's and can easily get through SR).

Also, many groups don't use the spell compendium (so many options can cause madness).

The Black Bard wrote:

I mean, cursed items should be called that because they're, well, cursed!

My big complaint is that they slapped on the 'cursed' label and then did not put any thought into play balance. There is no real indicator in the text that these items are unavailable to PCs

The Mirror of opposition is *not* a cursed item in 3.5.

It is a regular (if expensive) wondrous item that's intended to be used as a 'weapon' (of sorts).

Because of Demogorgon's duality, and the fact that each of his two sides has their own separate clones already--Bagromar and the other one--even if he were subjected, what would be the result? Would one of the clones emerge?

Cinematically, my first inclination was also to have the mirror split Demogorgon into two single-headed monsters that fought with each other (and whoever else was in the way). The players would still have to deal with the victor (who's injured, but now more focused).

... or maybe the cautious half teleports away (leaving the players to deal with the angry, destructive half)

Rigid and overly "lawful" to the point of becoming a tyrant "in the name of Good".

Note that the mirror's description doesn't say that the double has the opposite alignment.

Mind you, attempting to duplicate a Demon prince (i.e. the epitome of chaos) can well have *any* effect. Any player that thinks it will necessarily have beneficial results is far to optimistic.

I recently created a horde of Skinwalkers for STAP using Weresabertooth minis from Mageknight. They were rebased on 1" bases and given Macahuitls and aztec shields with Demogorgon's image on them (created using shrinky-dink printer paper).

This was all was more effort than I really wanted, and they still weren't exactly right. I'm curious: what have others used as Skinwalker miniatures?

Any suggestions.

Well, the adventure says that the PC's can walk out without too much trouble. To me this means that path they took to get in isn't getting drenched. The water will be coming in through other holes leading to Galismorga, but it'll be days before their exit path is completely flooded.

It also sounds like the PC's entrance tunnel is one area where the air is escaping through (making them pretty windy). There might be some rivulets and streams forming, and some areas may no longer be accessible, but overall the path should be traversable.

Mind you: any manner of creature might be trying to escape along the same path (giving the PC's a reason to move with all haste).

It you just want them to get out quick, have them cast resilient sphere, then fill up the passage with water so they float out rapidly like a bubble. If they don't have resilient sphere, give them an 'escape pod'(Bead of Force with directions on how to use it and where to go in case of flooding).

Sben wrote:

Or possibly a great group, but not so great for STAP.

I agree with this and other posts along the same lines.

Hmm... I would've thought the opposite. i.e.:

1) The group sounds lousy
2) Compared to other campaigns, STAP seems more easily adaptable to thieving, pirate types.

But maybe not.

What can I do to motivate these players (and their characters).

It sounds like your players would rather be thieving pirates than do-gooders. Luckily, STAP can accommodate that if needed. Maybe just anticipate their mercenary attitude and give them more of a financial incentive to follow the intended path (maybe offer them more bribes while lowering the treasure during adventures, or describe the BBEG's as having phat loot).

If they are getting out of hand in their lawlessness, impose logical consequences: like high level NPC's ambushing them and killing them or throwing them in jail. Don't hold back. Once one hangs from the gallows, subsequent PC's might get the message.

And if they are playing in a style that you are not comfortable with (which would certainly be the case for me here), tell them outright.

I hope to make it

You might consider making (possibly with this) the following three pieces (mounted on 8.5"x11" boards):

1) A 10' wide, 55' long hallway lined with 15'x15' jail cells
2) A 40'x 55' room
3) An intersection of a 15' wide hallway and a 20' wide hallway (with a room of various size in each of the four corners).

By combining these three pieces in various ways, you can create a (suitable enough) 3-D representation of most areas in the Divided Ire. It doesn't have to be a perfect match for the other players to enjoy it. You can then plan with your DM for any special areas desired.

I did something similar when I ran barrier peaks.

"Gang" doesn't do them justice, so I stole the grouping for crows... Many thanks Sir Carborundum!

Since that is also how they are referred to in the Fiendish Codex I (as seen in this article), you could probably view it as official now.

I have had trouble finding things to make good skinwalkers

Sabrefang Warrior or

Weresabertooth

I'm also struggling to get minis for some of the huge sized demons

Bebilith: Starwars Acklay (which is even on an actual WotC Huge base)

Retriever: Acklay or huge spider
Nalfeshnee: King Kong (huge) or Haunter of the Pits (gargantuan) action figure with wings glued on (taken from feathery bird figures available in craft stores)

note: these are not just ideas... these are what I've been using. I do most of my modifications with a knife and a hot glue gun (both from the $1 store), and 3" disks wooden (for huge bases) can be found in most craft stores.

Its going to be annoying not to have a good huge sized demogorgon mini for the end of the campaign.

I'll be using a 6" tall Iskar action figure, but replacing the head with two mandrill heads (from plastic animals figures) and replacing the arms with toy octopus arms.

The base figure is only $1 here

Didn't miniaturemarket.com go under? Do you have a link?

Are you being serious?

Has anyone found an appropriate model for the Sea Wyvern elsewhere?

From experience, my highest recommendation is for:

Pirateology model Ship (Swiftbuck)
(here's a picture of it assembled)
This model is perfect for miniatures. Plus it's cheap ($7), sturdy, light, and easy to assemble. Note: I left the lower sails off my own model to make it easy to move miniatures around the deck. I also drew a grid directly on the deck.

Other good models that I've used:
Brown Best-Lock ship
Black Best-Lock ship
Mega Bloks Flying Dutchman
Klutz Pirate ship building cards
Mega Bloks Vorgan Ice Fang Ship
Mega Bloks Empress
Weapons and Warriors pirate ship

Also, I started going through the adventure path, noting all of the monsters and I'd like to purchase as many of the actual D&D minis

If you can provide a list of the monsters, I can provide a list of miniatures for them. I started at HTBM, and I've had to be pretty creative with Dreamblade an Mageknight miniatures (among other things). However, singles can often be obtained fairly cheaply (I can provide a list of online stores if desired).

Ignore (somehow posted to wrong thread)

Has anyone any ideas on minis for waves of vine horrors and assassin vines?

I currently use Tanglewood Spirit miniatures from Mage Knight Whirlwind (can get them cheap online).

However, I previously used plastic aquarium plants (available in any pet store) as they were easier to obtain.

Wow. All this effort has prompted me to try my own hand at making a model of the Wreck. Here are the parts I'll be using (most of which I found on sale at various times):

The ships:
- Baeldictum: Mega Bloks Vorgan Ice Fang Ship ($20)
- The Glad: Mega Bloks Empress ($20)
- The Two-faced Wretch: Pirateology model Ship (Swiftbuck) ($7)
- Lookout point: Weapons and Warriors pirate ship ($10)
- The Anger: Brown Best-Lock ship ($10)
- Black Sprite: Black Best-Lock ship ($10)
- The Fortitude: Mega Bloks Flying Dutchman ($13)

Also:
- Klutz Pirate ship building cards ($8)
- 36” Pine tree ($6)
- Two 14” Palm trees x2 ($5 each)
- Small sized chain and rope (from hardware store)
- Plasticard (free from real estate signs littered near my house)
- Asian placemat (to cut up and use as ladders/bridges) ($2)

Since I already had the pirate ships anyways, this actually isn't going to be that costly.

does a rogue get sneak attack when attacking the stomach of a creature to cut his way out?

From the [u]3.5 FAQ[/u] (if desired):

"Can a rogue who has been swallowed whole by a
monster use sneak attack against it? And does this damage
apply to the monster’s normal hit points?
Yes and yes, though that first yes has a qualification
attached. Since a creature that has used swallow whole to gulp
down a foe is effectively denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, it’s
potentially vulnerable to a sneak attack. (Intuitively speaking,
this makes pretty good sense. It’s hard to imagine a better place
to attack a monster’s vulnerable parts than from inside the
monster itself.)
However, keep in mind that the inside of a stomach is almost
certainly pitch-black, and therefore the critter has total
concealment against attacks. The rules indicate that a rogue
can’t use sneak attack against a creature with concealment, so
unless she’s packing a light source in there she’s probably out
of luck vis-à-vis sneak attack. (The Sage imagines that most
DMs ignore the 50% miss chance in such situations, which
seems like a reasonable house rule.)
Damage done to a creature to cut your way out is applied to
its hit points as normal."

Im not sure if its better to choose outsiders(evil) first and suck up the fact that it will be useless for the first three adventures to get that extra +4 to damage and skills. Any insight on this would be helpful.

Couldn't you choose outsiders(evil) 2nd (i.e. at 5th level) for the same effect (which I believe is just +2 over what you have)?

Olangru and his 3 mates constitute the second evil/chaotic outsider threat. The first was the Varrangoin in Tamoachan.

I don't believe the Varrangoin was an Outsider (i.e. I recall it needing to eat). I believe it was instead an Extraplanar Magical Beast.

1. How did you play out the encounters in Chap. 7... did you go round by round, or just skip to the various Fight scenes?

Kinda both. If there was no immediate combat, I still gave each player a 'turn' (which might represent a several minutes, depending on what was happening).

2. Anyone know how deep Farshore Harbor is?

Evidently deep enough for ships... why?

3. My players, through clever use of magic, have devised a way to basically put a grouping of stone columns in the harbors bottleneck, thus preventing the pirates ships from entering ... Any ideas on how to circumvent this?

The fleet would (eventually) likely direct their flesh golems knock 'em down. Each golem should be able to pound through about 1' of stone in 1.5 minutes. It can cause an excellent delay though (and maybe even damage a ship or two). The pirates on those ships would likely still be able to hit the rowboats and join the main attack as normal (though a bit more tired).

4. How did the final conflict with Vanthus play out... he seems like kind of a weakling

Yeah, but ideally the PC's should be worn down by all the fighting by then. Ranged spells should be at a minimum, and melee-types shouldn't be able to reach him (since he's flying and using spring attack).

However, assuming the party has acquired the evil-outsider bane bow in the weapon cache (which they should have), he'll still be short work. I recommend him sundering or disarming the bow (especially since there's no AoO from an archer) as soon as he realizes what it is.

have her use alter self - yes, it is not on the normal bardic spell-list

It isn't?

I didn't run this adventure (started with HTBM), but does Rowyn have access to the "Pass without Trace" (Drd 1, Rgr 1) spell?

Thunderstike was one of the best parts of the campaign so far.

He died a nasty, off-screen death though at the hands of the Bar-lgura (after panicking and being separated from the party). Up until then, the party had been laughing off all the ominous 'Blair Witch' stuff. His horse screams echoing through the dark swamp put a stop to that.

Since I had a good collection, I used about a dozen different ships (and a large playing field) for the Farshore battle.

I also have about 6 different d20 supplements that detail naval battles... but I didn't use any of those... the rules would've added very little to the battle (i.e. merely slowed it down).

Taking a tip for Heroes of battle, I focused only on what the players did. They would've cared very little for the actual rules covering the minutia of moving ships, ship damage, etc. anyway, so long as they got a chance to start attacking things.

Anyone have an adventure that can be used for Zotz? Or maybe just a more involved map?

"The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan"?

Some options:
1) Boats/rafts (aranea likely already have some made for themselves)
2) The spidersilk cable to be broken has the Refuge spell cast on it.
3) Scry/teleport
4) Cast Airwalk on gargantuan spider (and smaller ones hitch a ride)
5) Cast Waterwalk on the gargantuan spider (and smaller ones hitch a ride)
6) Cast Waterwalk on the gargantuan spider, and it creates a silk strand across the water to be used by a ferry (or to start a web bridge).
7) Shadow walk
8) Tree Stride
9) Phantom Steed (at 10th level) for a select few. Could even make the steeds spiderlike (for flavor)
10) Portable hole passed through ring gates
11) Bag of holding or portable hole transported by a creature (outsider) with unlimited teleportation abilities (maybe a lantern archon called via the lesser planar ally spell). Spiders shouldn't have much trouble being crammed into such a spot for a short while.
12) Whale Skeleton (or zombie Orca) modified for use as a troop transport (submarine or ship). The Olmans could have created this for the aranea if they couldn’t do it for themselves

the party split up and one character ended up storming the ground floor of the Vanderboren mansion singlehandedly.

All XP would normally be devided among all players at the table, even if the party splits up. The theory is that the whole party still provides support (restorations, information gathering, etc.), even if they don't contribute directly to a combat.

Giving separate XP is likely to encourage players to sneak ahead of the party and obtain solo kills... giving them both more XP and more 'spotlight' time (i.e. more playing time) while the other players sit around being bored *and* XP starved.

rather than just fighting a random monster, you need a set encounter to use when it is "random monster" time. An encounter that is a bit more interesting? Anybody have some of those?

Some ideas (some of them from King Kong):

1) Encounter on a large tree that has fallen across a ravine: large creature causes tree/bridge to fall in vine clogged ravine.
2) Encounter in ancient Olman ruins: 3-D, creatures can climb along buildings and statues. Some fallen walls, columns or statutes provide bridging or ramps to other levels.
3) Encounter in a dinosaur stampede: Cc's have to fend off Deinonychus attacks while running along underneath gargantuan brontosaurs that are stampeding out of a canyon. Conducting any AoO-provoking action (other than non-backwards movement) will provoke an attack by a brontosaurus foot.
4) Spider encounter after falling into a very big web
5) Dinosaur protecting her young/eggs.
6) Encounter while climbing a cliff or large tree
7) Two dinosaurs competing for who gets to eat the PC's
8) While chasing prey, dinosaur notices PC's and goes after them instead.
9) Savage Olmans riding animated dinosaur skeletons
10) Encounter while the party sleeps in an abandoned Phanaton tree platform: have plenty of vines to swing on.

Since you asked - I disagree with the following statement which I find both overly simplifying and generally too imprecise to be put like that

"This isn't made clear enough in the DMG, but wealth levels are an important balance consideration for the game.

As for what the player buys with that wealth: it usually isn't an issue. If they spent most of their wealth on single, expensive item, they are mostly likely being sub-optimal. "

As stated above, I can think of half a dozen scenarios where your thesis would be wrong

I suppose I could have added boctaoe after my posts, but I'm unsure what you are arguing. The statements that you quoted are useful and valid *general* observations for D&D (and were intended as such).

Wealth levels are an important balance consideration... not that you *have* to follow them, and not that you *have* consider it, or to consider balance at all. But if balance is a concern, wealth levels will play an important part (whether you make an effort to consider them or not). That's just default D&D (i.e. how it is designed)... but yes, people certainly can and do play otherwise.

Also, spread out purchases (example: +1 cloak, +1 ring, +1 amulet, +1 armor & +1 weapon for 8k gp) are typically more optimal than single, large purchases in D&D (example: +2 ring for 8k gp).

I would disagree.

Are you disagreeing for D&D in general, or specifically for the Savage Tide, Isle of dread portion of the adventure path?

the inability or high difficulty for characters to acquire equipment while based in Farshore (yes, it can be done with teleport etc. but it is a time-consuming hassle ) is part of the plot

Fair enough. I can indeed understand that viewpoint for the Isle o’ Dread section of Savage Tide. Mind you, many other adventures do the same thing, but my groups have *always* found a way to resupply.

Still; per the authors, there is enough down-time for shopping trips, and any group past 10th level that doesn’t have access to Teleport has a serious problem imo. At 15th level, this shouldn’t really be an issue. Also, if the PC’s keep all their loot (rather than selling stuff they don’t want and buying new stuff), they’d likely be far ahead of the estimated wealth per level charts in regard to total gear. I have a spreadsheet that has been keeping (detailed) track of this for my own Savage tide campaign. My group is about in the same location (and has been relying on teleport for resupply for the last 5 levels).

At worst, the players could resupply to their heart’s content (or rather, to the 40k gp per item limit) at the beginning of the next adventure in Scuttlecove.

Note that D&D assumes a certain level of wealth at each level, and this wealth mostly represents items that the player has hand-picked. If the DM's other players have less than 200k gp in gear (even after selling unwanted stuff at 1/2 price and buying stuff they really want), then they are below the expected power level for the adventure.

This isn't made clear enough in the DMG, but wealth levels are an important balance consideration for the game.

As for what the player buys with that wealth: it usually isn't an issue. If they spent most of their wealth on single, expensive item, they are mostly likely being sub-optimal.

object could mean one wall, plank or nail of the ship, while it would use many spells to mend the whole ship, it is possible, especially if you have more than one PC who can cast divine spells.

I believe in the case of the Sea Wyvern, several masts (and sails) are actually gone, and it has a few hull sections that one would view as beyond the capabilities of the spell (i.e. effectively "warped, burned, disintegrated, ground to powder, melted, or vaporized").

Again, the very next issue of Dungeon magazine details how to repair the Ship, and what effect the Make Whole spell has on this effort.

I personally would likely allow either interpretation:
1) If you have a high enough caster level to affect the entire ship (i.e. higher than is possible for a party going through this adventure), then you could possibly repair entirely missing sections of the ship. Note that empty cargo areas and such still contribute to the ship's cubic feet displacement.
2) If you do not have that high of a caster level, then you can repair smaller bits (but not bits that are entire missing or destroyed). I believe that when the ship is eventually repaired (in the next adventure) the spell can be used to provide minor bonuses to the daily repair rolls.

However, either of these interpretations would still not derail the adventure.

They have determined that it would be unwise to try to tackle the ziggurat again, or even return to Golismorga for that matter.

This seems incongruous with your earlier statement of "they are a very tough lot and suffer from a certain sense of invincibility at times"

Do they realize that shadow pearls are being made there and sent abroad (thus heralding The End Of The World As We Know It)? Do they know that they can pretty much avoid the (overly powerful) ziggurat entirely by merely breaking a crumbling piece of rock (i.e. the Tear of Taloc)?

If not, then you should make this information available, maybe via:
1) The troglodyte 'ally' freed from prison earlier in the adventure
2) The aboleth posing as a god's avatar
3) The mongrelmen
4) Recovered notes from the Brine Harlot
5) Interogating captured crimson fleet pirates
6) Lavinia insisting that they she prefer the world not be destroyed
7) Divination: the party cleric(s)should be casting this spell daily if they have down-time.
8) As a last resort: Noltus Innersol (a Pelorian cleric from the next adventure) could come down off the mountain and explain to them (in no uncertain terms) exactly what his own divinations have revealed.

It sounds like they simply think that they are supposed to fight the entire ziggurat (and don't realize there is an alternative).

Terok, I would like a copy of the journal too, please:
matthew_vincent at yahoo.com

>1. It seems like there are an awful lot of Skinwalkers.

While they might seem tough, at the level your PC's should be at they are basically mooks. Even if swarmed, your players should still be able to teleport (or fly) away (i.e. mooks are intended to *gradually* wear down the party, so dying is more their choice rather than an accident). Besides, players tend to love swarms of mooks.

>2. Khala's link to the demon at the water gate strikes me as being a serious problem.

Agreed. Most of my own prep will assume that the base is aware of the PC's.

>3. New pcs

Make sure the group has teleporting abilities. Have someone take leadership if need be to obtain a teleporting cohort.

> is there a fun and interesting way to heighten the drama of the climb?

I plan to use some scenes from King Kong (the dinosaur stampede, and the tree-bridge/chasm scenes)

>5. Rest and Refit: there seems to be little means to rest and refit once the pcs are on the plateau

Teleport. If the big cities on the mainland are out of teleport range, Planeshifting (twice) then teleporting is a functional work around.

Seconded! The lack of source/composer prevented me from utilizing this piece.

One or two sneaky SB agents with a dozen or so feather tokens (anchor) could probably be pretty vexing to the pirates without requiring a big investment by the SB.

And of course, the payment will always exceed the aid. In return, the SB might expect Farshore to act like an 'ally' (i.e. conduct missions for them, and/or pay fealty to the SB).

I personally feel that destroying the Kopru facility without re-awakening the Aboleth is an excellent idea (assuming the PC's are willing to engage in such a big fight).

No need to railroad them... let them try. The plot isn't harmed if they somehow succeed.

On the subject: I'm surprised that the adventure expects the party to still destroy the Kopru facility after the tear is destroyed. I mean, it's seems like the Aboleth will handle the Kopru just fine.