Guiltgorger Giant

Matt Gwinn's page

Organized Play Member. 105 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Dragonsong wrote:
Matt Gwinn wrote:

So far I've watched

The Cottage
Dream Home

Would you recommend any of those? I keep seeing them on Netflix but haven't put them in my queue yet.

They were all good films, and I wouldn't have a problem watching them again.

Dream Home is subtitled if that's an issue for you. If it's not, I also highly recommend "I Saw the Devil" which is an excellent Korean film about revenge.

Since my last post I have also seen
Yellow Brick Road
The Unnamable
Diary of the Dead
Survival of the Dead

Of those Stakeland, Outpost and Yellow Brick Road (in that order) were the only one's I would recommend. Yellow Brick Road may or may not agree with you, but I liked it up until the end.

I really enjoyed it. The tension really builds up and for a low budget film the acting is great.
I shelled out $40 for a copy a year ago when it was nowhere to be found. Good to see that it's now available on Netflix.

The place where the movie takes place is actually a real place in Canada where people LARP regularly. The only set piece they had to make for the film was the ship.

So far I've watched
The Cottage
Wicked Little Things
Rammbock: Berlin Undead
Trick R' Treat
Dream Home
Behind the Mask: The Rise of Leslie Vernon
Night of the Demons (2009)
Night of the Comet
I saw the Devil
Phantasm II

Less than an hour to go

Tilnar wrote:

Had you, instead, asked us things like How much we thought you should get per con, how long and challenging that con should be, etc... You probably would have gotten different answers.

I will word my question better next time I guess.

Lesson learned.

And yes, I did disagree with the answers given, but I never had an answer in mind. Why would I waste my time asking if I did. I'd go to my GM and say how much I think I should be able to get and we'd go from there.

Had someone just asked me to clarify what I was asking instead of making assumptions about me maybe this thread would be a few posts shorter and less agitating.

Tilnar wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Charm Person does not make them forget the event or the casting of the spell. They will most likely still try to hunt you down.
I agree with that, too. Charm Person isn't mind control -- it makes you very friendly toward the person, but that's probably not enough to get you to hand them all your cash.

You could use Charm person to get someone to "loan" you money when they normally would have no expectation of being paid back. Or get them to buy you something. I loan my friends money all the time, sometimes I even give it to them outright.

Now, when the spell wears off there'd be a price to pay, but I've said multiple times that I never expected to get away clean every time. I will have a head start though, and the largest city in Golarion to hide in.

In the real world - would you empty your wallet and bank account for your best friend (before paying rent, or feeding your family) -- especially in a world without credit (or, rather, with painful credit)?

Why do you guys keep taking things to the extremes? I'm looking to get supplemental income here to pay for rent on multiple flops in different districts (most just a single room to hide out in), disguises, jewelry to enhance the upscale disguises, Arcanamirium tuition (He's posing as a student to get close to the bad guy) and bribe money. I'm not looking for a king's ransom. The 250gp a day is more than enough for what I'll need.

On the subject of the "official rules" for making money. Those are rolls for money made outside of play, have no consequences, are completely legal income streams and were never what I was asking about.

Have any of you ever watched Leverage or Burn Notice? Those guys get all kinds of stuff through deception.

Hai Yu wrote:

Tilnar said some really IMPORTANT things about how once it goes from being a low con of "give me your money" and they hand it over TO a bigger con of working the NPC over awhile and finessing the money out of them, using more than just 1 or 2 tricks, so maybe you get even more than you thought you might get, it becomes an ENCOUNTER and the loot you get is equivalent to the loot from what ever the CR level of said encounter would be...

I thought that was pretty clear and helpful...

It was very helpful and answered the question to a degree.

Being able to compare to the income potential of a Wizard answered the GP amount part of the question, so I'm pretty set on that.

this is really only advice and the like going with what is written in the books and how the game is USUALLY played.

We generally don't play the way the game is USUALLY played. Had plenty of that back in college and it wasn't particularly fun after a while. Our games tend to be more story based than dungeon crawls and monster of the week style of play.

The next person you might want to ask about the gp you would earn might be your GM

Did that. Started here to see what others thought. My GM is basically back me on this. Honestly I think the argument is because people thought I just wanted to roll Bluff and collect cash without having an Encounter associated with the roll, which I don't get why anyone would make that assumption.

This is what I asked


How much cash do you think such a character can reasonably con people out of in a day without making a whole adventure out of it?

If you were my GM, how would you work it?

I'm not sure where everyone got the idea that that means make a few rolls and watch the cash roll in. Maybe the wording "work it" was the confusing part. work it = mechanics?

I just wanted to know how much gold I could expect to garner without having to commit the whole group to a full blown adventure just to get gold. If making enough gold to meet my character's needs was not reasonable then making a full night of it might be necessary. I never expected everyone to lowball the possible gp amount the way they did.

Honestly I think this discussion has brought up the obvious bias against noncombat characters. People on these boards are more than happy to help each other blatantly break the game when it comes to doing excessive amounts of damage, one shot kills and totally unbalanced character builds, but I make a character built around talking rather than killing and all I get is grief.

Cartigan wrote:

120gp rent a month? Yeah, you are wanting to make that a day.

Plenty of people have lost more than a month's rent in less time. Ever been to vegas?
And that's for a flat house. A town house can cost a thousand. A manor or keep can cost even more depending on which district you're in. Rent for a small keep can run you 10,000gp a month


Be cause it's Absalom which has a population of 300,000 people and I chose to go into the shop that had a clerk that wasn't an owner.
Looked that up in the yellow pages did you?

Guide to Absalom actually. Useful book, I recommend it.

Pathfinder Wiki also lists it.

Tilnar wrote:

A few comments here.

One: you're now planning and RPing something -- and that's what we've all said you should do with your skills to make the bigger strikes.

I never intended not to RP it or plan. I was just trying to get a reasonable GP amount I should be expecting from a day's work with the tools available to me.

What I didn't want was to devote 5 hours of game time to it. I have no issues with devoting a few scenes to it. Ya know, about the same time a bunch of fighter types might spend killing a room full of monsters.

Two: Any jewelry store in a world where magic is available that keeps things on hand will, likely, have magical protections. You probably can't scry or teleport into their vaults, for instance.

Yes and I'd fully expect those modifiers to be applied where applicable. But I don't plan on scrying, nor do I even need to get into the vault. I don't even plan on necessarily getting away clean. Eventually, any lie I might tell will get revealed as such. My point is that ripping off a jewelry store with MY character's skills should be just as easy or difficult as a fighter using his skills to walk into a shop, split the shopkeeper's head open with an axe and walking out with a moderately priced piece of jewelry.

I would probably say, too, that they're going to hire people who are good at negotiating and, for that matter, reading people [decent wis, and probably Alertness or Skill Focus (Sense Motive)] and probably back that up with things like Zone of Truth, which is a low level spell and cheap enough to get cast -- and well worth it when the alternative is people like you robbing the place.

I never said I wanted it to be easy. Bluff is an opposed roll after all. And Zone of truth only lasts a round per level. Are they going to pay to have it cast every time a customer walks in the door? That's a good way to run yourself out of business.

Three: I would suggest that you're not likely to get an "employee" at a store like that who isn't a family member of the owner or the owner themselves, since it seems a very stupid idea to hire people at 1 silver a day to sell/deal with your wares that are all worth 25gp at the very least.

That's what local knowledge checks are for. I wouldn't pick a spot or person at random. My character isn't stupid.

Also, it would be pretty stupid to pay someone with the high sense motive and negotiating skills you discussed 1 silver a day. A shop with the cash can afford to pay for loyalty. And again, we're not talking about day laborers here. I'm talking about ripping off Experts and Aristocrats who are generally going to have and make way more money than a commoner.

Tilnar wrote:
Matt Gwinn wrote:

Wow, you guys are brutal.

In my opinion, if a 5th level wizard can make X amount of GP casting spells for people, a rogue should be able to make just as much using his equivalently leveled skills.
And he can. Either by breaking into places and looting them, or making sleight of hand checks to lift coinpurses of rich folk -- of course, rich folk tend to have bodyguards, so that's a little harder than fleecing lower-class merchants and the like.

Why is everyone so opposed to using Bluff, but slight of hand for picking pockets is totally cool? The result is the same.


Matt Gwinn wrote:
A 3rd level wizard can potentially make 120gp in 3 rounds 100% legit Shouldn't a 3rd level rogue be able to make at least that much "illegally"?
Ah, that's a false comparison. Level 3 wizard who does that is now out of spells. FOR THE DAY. No more casting.

I don't see your point. I'm talking about making 120gp in a whole day, not 3 rounds. If anything it's unfair to the rogue because he needs to waste a whole day while the wizard can spend thevast majority of the day spending his 120 gold.

In those 9 hours and 3 rounds, how many individual small people can you pick pocket, bluff out of small coins, or - you know - actually case the joint and burgle? I bet you can come up with 120gp.

So now you are agreeing with me? Did you think I was expecting to make 120gp in just 3 rounds using Bluff?

What you're trying to do is to do it 100% safely without dealing with the bigger risks

Um, no. Where did you get that? He'd be breaking the law and ripping off important people. I fully expect (and look forward to) that coming back to bite me later.

you're literally pulling quick scams on people who only have handfuls of silver on them - and so you're getting ahead every day (and, to remind you, making way more money that the guys you're fleecing) without putting yourself in any real danger.

When did I ever say I'd be fleecing commoners/poor people?

Would we even be having this conversation if I used Charm Person, which any 1st level caster can cast?

Cartigan wrote:
Except casting spells isn't using skills. No one is saying a Wizard can make 120gp an hour using Knowledge checks. You are saying "I lie to people and make them give me more money than they could even contemplate owning at any one time." No.

It's not just skills, it's also levels, all of my feats and rogue talents. And 120 gold is not more than a person can contemplate, especially in Absalom where you're lucky if you get an flat house with a monthly rent as low as 120gp. 120gp may be a life savings for a commoner, but and expert or Aristocrat could easily have that kind of money accessible.

And why wouldn't the Clerk BE the owner? Or the owner's son/nephew/brother? I mean, this is a 15th century world here, not modern megaconglomerateorations.

Be cause it's Absalom which has a population of 300,000 people and I chose to go into the shop that had a clerk that wasn't an owner.


So a 5th level mix-n-match character with a lot of Bluff can do better than a 7th level Bard with 25 Cha and Leadership?

No, but Leadership grants you LOYAL followers. Rogues in a theives guild are not loyal unless their is profit in it. I've played in tones of adventures where the head of theives guild was around 5th level.

Wow, you guys are brutal.
In my opinion, if a 5th level wizard can make X amount of GP casting spells for people, a rogue should be able to make just as much using his equivalently leveled skills.

A 3rd level wizard can potentially make 120gp in 3 rounds 100% legit
Shouldn't a 3rd level rogue be able to make at least that much "illegally"?
Isn't that the point of a rogue to begin with? To make money as easily as possible?

I discussed this with my GM and she suggested using my bluff as opposed to slight of hand to get people to just hand me their money. I'm cool with that.

As far as how I'd convince people to just give me money, the rules give a -20 to a bluff roll if the "lie is impossible". with a 19 bluff that means I can walk into a jewelry store, tell the clerk that I'm the new owner and only have to beat his sense motive to walk out with the whole shop. If I take only a -10 (lie is far-fetched) I can at least convince him I've already paid for something I haven't paid for.

And if I spend a hero point for a +8 it's even easier.

Will there be repercussions later? Sure, but aren't there always?

The character IS a con man, but the campaign isn't built around just him, so it wouldn't be very fair to build entire adventures around him conning someone. It's also not the character's primary goal in the campaign, he just needs some cash to fund his major plans.

The character's primary goal is to get revenge on a wizard that framed and put to death my character's only friend (and is also an enemy of other PCs). He intends to ruin the guy's life through manipulation of public opinion and mind games. In order to do that, he needs starting funds to establish and maintain multiple fake identities, pay for multiple safe houses and buy protective spells to keep the bad guy from detecting him as the source of his trouble.

In a city like Absalom where the level of any random NPC's wealth could range from a pocket full of coppers to a fortress full of jewels, it's not outside the bounds of reason to be able to con a few hundred gold off a guy on the street with a simple con. Obviously conning someone out of their life savings would be an intricate endeavor, but conning a noble out of what is, to him, effectively loose change shouldn't be too difficult with a simple 20 to 40 bluff check.

Subbing Bluff for Perform will garner 3d6 GP per day on average
Subbing Bluff for Profession will garner 10GP per week on average

At those rates I'd be better off just backstabbing people and taking their wallets.

Ok, my current character is a Wizard2/Rogue3 with the charlatan archetype. He's pretty much skill based and combat is definitely not his forte. Anyway, he needs cash and killing monsters and taking their stuff is not really a viable option.

What he does have is an 18 INT, a base 19 bluff, a 17 diplomacy and the Convincing Lie feat.
We're playing in a city campaign set in Absalom.

How much cash do you think such a character can reasonably con people out of in a day without making a whole adventure out of it?

If you were my GM, how would you work it?

Granted, this isn't canon, but


Life Cycle

Kobolds are egg-layers. Incubation is about 90 days long, but is rarely continuous from the date of laying, instead eggs are often delayed in incubation by storing them in temperature-regulated cold chambers.

Incubation Period: 90 days
Skull Fusion: 4 years
Average Infant Mortality: 1 per 20 live births
Weaning: 1.5-2 years, average 1.75 years
Physical Maturity: 18-24 years
Life Span: 110 years

Real life laws allows the abortion of a fetus up to 24 weeks into gestation without reprisal. Whether an individual agrees with it or not, the consensus is that an abortion up to 24 weeks into pregnancy is not an evil act.

So, if a kobold's gestation period is 90 days it shouldn't be considered evil to destroy the eggs as long as they are in stasis or have not been gestating more than 60 days.

Then you get into the whole "soul" debate. Do undeveloped kobold eggs have souls? If a kobold fetus has yet to receive a soul, even if kobolds are inherently evil, one without a soul would be devoid of any alignment whatsoever. If you believe a creature gets its soul at conception, AND you believe kobolds are inherently evil then it would be ok to destroy the eggs.

Dragonsong wrote:
Tangent: What did you think of Lo and Ink?

I liked Lo, though I could have done without some of the musical numbers. Overall though I found it compelling.

Ink, is one of my favorite films. I think I watched it 5 times last year. I also made all of my friends watch it and have discovered it's a love it or hate it kind of film. I think a lot of people give up on it too soon and mistakenly stop watching after about 20 minutes.

This is my list from last year

- Night of the Creeps
- Frozen
- The House of the Devil
- Pig Hunt
- American Zombie
- Lo
- Pandorum
- Below
- Ghost Ship
- Burnt Offerings
- Cool Air
- Dreams of Cthulhu: The Rough Magik Initiative
- Issolation
- The Dunwich Horror (1970)
- Zombies of Mass Destruction
- Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter
- Masters of Horror: Dreams in the Witch House
- 5ive Girls
- Necessary Evil
- The Other Side
- The Devil's Curse (aka Credo)
- Spellbinder
- The Burrowers
- The Morgue
- Paranormal Activity
- Phantasm
- Boy Eats Girl
- Ink
- The Resurrected (aka Shatterbrain)
- Darkness Falls
- Masters of Horror: The Fair Haired Child

Total first time views: 30
Total movies watched: 31

Is anyone doing the October Horror Movie Challenge this year?

For those of you who are not familiar with the challenge, the rules are simple: watch 31 horror movies during the month of October (the definition of "horror" is up to you). 16 of these movies have to be movies you haven't seen before.

I've done this for 2 years now and have been able to pull it off successfully. Although there are always BAD horror movies I haven't see, finding good ones to fill up my 16 unseen slots is getting more difficult.

Anyone have suggestions?

My favorite high level wizard wasn't technically high level at all. I've played this character in a few incarnations with different DMs with mixed results.

The idea was that he was an evil 20th level wizard that was defeated in an epic battle by heroes. He somehow survived the ordeal, but quite worse for the wear. You see, he woke up miles from his homeland with the worst case of amnesia ever and nothing but a burnt up cloak for equipment. To top it off, he had acquired some mysterious bleeding disease that caused him to bleed periodically from his eyes and ears and reduced his max HP and attributes.

Not remembering a single thing about himself or his past, inlucing his alignment, he hooked up with adventuring groups that could help him discover his past. Traveling with primarily good aligned characters taught him how to be a good person, so he was often troubled when flashes of his past would pop into his mind.

Mechanically I played him just like any other starting character. He began as a 1st level rogue, but as time went on he would start to remember glimpses of his past and start remembering his skills and how to cast spells. His true self began to emerge at the same rate that the other characters were gaining their levels, so he was never actually any different from them in a mechanical sense.

The campaigns I played him in were short lived, so I only managed to get him to about 6th level which was pretty disappointing. The DMs who ran the campaigns were also kind of thrown by the character concept and never really tried very hard to incorporate his past into the campaign. I hope to remake the character again some day for Pathfinder with a GM that can run with the idea and make things exciting.

I noticed the Guide to Absalom only lists the cost of renting/buying a residence for about half the districts. Did the rest just get cut for space? It looks like the writer gave up half way through. Quite annoying.

I have a character that wants to set up safe houses in each district and I need to know what that is going to cost him. Anyone have numbers for the following districts?

Precipice Quarter
Merchant's Quarters
Petal District
Wise Quarter
Ivy District
The Puddles

Also, is there a list somewhere that shows which modules/APs have supplemental info on Absalom?


I agree with Bob, the best way to learn is to just play.

If the group knows you've never played before they will surely be prepared to walk you through what you need to get started.

Honestly I prefer having inexperienced players in my game as opposed to veteran gamers. They generally have less gamer baggage and you can teach them how to play to your style. Plus they don't know all of the monsters like the back of their hand. Stuff like Trolls and Rust monsters are so much cooler when the players don't know what they do.

So, what I'm saying is, don't worry.

I'd prefer some durable tokens like the ones that come with Arkham Horror.

Snorter wrote:
hogarth wrote:
But then again, I'm not a fan of the "twenty pages of background" school of PC building; a few paragraphs is enough for me.

Does anyone think this is a product of what era one started playing?

I think it has more to do with the following:

1) How much the player likes to write. Some players just like to write stories and jump at the opportunity.

2) How disappointing or railroaded the previous campaigns have been. If a player thinks his background is the only time he will have input into the campaign he's gonna load up as much as he can.

Snorter wrote:
Matt Gwinn wrote:
I always require players to create at least two NPCs when writing their backgrounds, then work those NPCs into the setting.

That's an interesting idea.

Do you put any limitations on that?
I can see it being useful when it's "This is my fencing instructor, who still acts as captain in the town guard.".

A bit less so, when it's "This is Belldandy, my personal goddess....".

I usually don't put limitations on it, but I do reserve the right to veto something. My players are usually pretty reasonable though.

One of my standing policies is that I'm pretty much willing to give players anything they want within reason in exchange for an equivalent amount of adversity. If you want to be childhood friends with Cayden Cailean, then you better be prepared for some major tragedy to balance that out.

I do require that backgrounds be reasonable when compared to your level. if you're starting at 1st level, you've obviously never killed an army of demons or something like that. Unless your background somehow explained WHY you are only first level.

When I run a campaign I start with an idea and don't expand upon it until characters are created.

For starters, I try to have my players make characters cooperatively as a group rather than on their own. This allows players to bounce ideas off of each other and link their character backgrounds. Plus, I'll be present to give suggestion on how each character might best fit into the setting I have in find.

I always require players to create at least two NPCs when writing their backgrounds, then work those NPCs into the setting.

I also have players give me two short term goals and 1 long term goal for their characters, and I build aspects of the campaign around those goals.

Those three things ensure the campaign always has things the players find interesting.

As far as when I'm not the GM, it all depends on who is running. In most cases I have a pretty good idea of what the campaign will be about and can build a character based on that. I also try to work with other players and try to find/create connections between our characters.

In the few instances where I've been forced to make a character blind, the campaign is usually unsatisfying.

Was just emailed this and had to share. I think it's a great idea.

GM Merit Badges

What do you think? What Merit Badges do you have?

Here are Mine
- My games will tell an interesting Story
- My games focuses on Exploration & Mystery
- My games are Safe and you don't need to worry about content or character death 
- I will Mirror back player ideas I think are interesting in the game
- The GM is In Charge in my games and "rule-zero" is in effect
- My games rely on a lot of Improvisation rather than pre scripted content 
- My games are Gonzo and can include a lot of strangeness
- Characters in my games are Destined for greatness, not random death
- I roll Dice in the open and don't fudge the results in my games
- My games include Disturbing content
- My games focus on interesting Characters and Drama 
- My games are more of the Social, Fun and "Beer & Pretzels" style
- My game is primarily Non-Combat in nature
- Players in my game should be prepared to Run when the odds are against them
- I frequently Tinker with the rules of the game

thepuregamer wrote:
what large cities allow possibly armed and dangerous magic users to fly unhindered above them?

Ones that respect freedom?

Charender wrote:

Lets see...

First up, Thick stone or lead blocks most divination spells. Create a couple of safe rooms scattered around town.

Creating safe rooms throughout town is on my list of things to do. Buying sheets of lead may be a bit suspicious though.

Second, mundane disguises. A lot of divinations cannot see through mundane disguises.

I plan to do all of my covert stuff and rumor mongering in disguise with fake identities. I'm hoping that the wizard will waste a lot of time scrying for people that don't exist. I'm not sure if scrying locates a target based on appearance or if it'll still find me when I shed the disguise.

Get a ring of counterspells. Keep scry in it that way if you ever get scried on, it will get counterspelled automatically.

That's a good idea. My GM will be more than happy to set up a quest to find the ring, and scry is a completely legal spell to cast, so no issues there. Finding a caster of high enough level to cast scry might be difficult, but I can get by with Locate Creature or Clairaudience/Clairvoyance until then. Getting a scroll with scry on it and trying to cast it myself might be easier than finding a caster though.

It is expensive, but get a high level wizard to cast non-detection and magic aura both with permancy. That will give you spell resistance against a lot of divinations.

That'll be even more difficult than the ring, because spells that protect from scrying and detection are illegal in Absalom, so there are bound to be unpleasant strings attached to such a bargain.

Iron Will, Improved Iron Will. The divinations that allow a save work against will saves.

Boosting my Will save is high on my list at this point. I'll be taking another level in Charlatan, but after that I might take a level in Bard which will, among other useful things, give me another +2 to my will saves.

Finally, misdirection. Specifically disguise yourself as other people. That way your opponent will spend a lot of time scrying on people who have nothing do to with the plot against him.

I don't think misdirection works on scrying spells, just AURA detection spells like detect evil. It does help against Discern Lies though, so it's not completely useless to me. Also illegal by the way. Hmm.

Ok, here's the basic scenario.
I'm playing a Wizard2/Rogue2 with the Charlatan Archetype from UC. He is totally skill based with a 20 Charisma, 16 Bluff, 14 Diplomacy, 10 Disgues,and 7 or higher in all the base knowledge skills. As a teen, he and his father scammed a bunch of low level nobles out of their daughter's dowries. They ultimately were caught and both were sentenced to death.

While in prison he met a young wizard student from the Arcanamirium who was framed for murder by the Dean of Student Affairs who is secretly summoning devils to do his bidding. Not sure what level he is but I know he is also head of the school of divination and most likely between 9th and 14th level. The boy was sentenced to life in prison.

While awaiting his execution, my character became good friends with the boy and through an unfortunate case of mistaken identity the two boys were switched and the young wizard was executed in my character's place leaving him to finish out the boy's life sentence. Wracked with guilt, my character vowed to clear his friend's name and get revenge on the wizard. 10 years later he managed to escape and is now poised to take revenge.

If you'd care to read his entire backstory go to

So, I want my revenge plan to be pretty elaborate like something out of heist movie. For starters I plan to make the guy's life miserable by using the Rumormonger ability. I also want to write a song or poem about the boy and try to get bards throughout the city to start spreading it around.

In the meantime I have become a student at the Arcanamirium and hope to get really close to the Wizard, maybe even become his assistant so I can learn as much as possible about him, so I can figure out his weaknesses. I am also working on setting up a wide range of alternate identities throughout the city to help keep me hidden.

The biggest problem I have is that he is a Diviner so keeping the source of all of my shenanigans secret will be difficult. There's also the added problem that spells that protect you from detection like misdirect and invisibility are illegal in Absalom. Granted, my character is no "law abiding citizen" by any means, but he doesn't want to take chances with the law just yet.

I have the rest of the party at my disposal (Master Summoner4, Magus4 and Druid4).

Any ideas on how to nail this guy without him killing me or putting me back in jail?

I normally don't use modules, but I've come to notice that some of the Adventure Paths include new rules such as the Romance and Caravan rules in Jade Regent and the Kingdom making rules in Kingmaker.

Then there are the AP bestiaries. How useful are those? Will most of them be reprinted in Bestiary 3?

So, which AP adventure have the best supplemental material in them? And are they worth the money if that is all you're going to use them for?


Its not unfeasible in the slightest that PC's could find there way to being completely magicless. Magicless, foodless, and nothing to find via Survival is stretching it but the guy said it came up so I'm giving him the assumption that create food wasn't available. (nor was survival).

Assuming there was no magic available, the characters would die of thirst long before they'd need to eat an animal companion.

adventurers aren't sitting around fasting they are out adventurin and burning calories like crazy.

As far as adventuring would go, I'd say the characters' priorities are a bit off if plundering treasure is more important than survival. And what kind of adventuring are they doing where they couldn't eat a monster before eating their own Animal companion?

Honestly, this is just one of those silly questions that comes up off the top of your head without any real thought, and is ultimately never going to come up in game.

The campaign I just started in on Sunday has all caster types.
We are Wizard2/Charlatan2, Summoner3, Druid3, Magus3

We fought 3 great white sharks and a Giant Octopus over 3 combats and the Summoner, by far, kept us alive against the sharks. We let his water elementals do all of the damage while we took turns sucking down cure light wound potions.

The druid cast charm animal on the octopus in the 1st round which is the only reason we survived. CR8 vs 3rd lvl characters - what was our DM thinking? LOL

I think the keys to our survival were:
- Letting someone else do the damage (summoned, charmed, hired thugs)
- Avoiding combat entirely via charm, etc.
- Be prepared with lots of potions and scrolls

In a world of magic where you have other options I say yes, it's evil.

Create Water is a 0 level spell any druid can cast all day long giving you an infinite supply of drinking water.

Purify food & water is also a zero level spell, and even if you didn't have anything to purify you could still survive a long time without food if you have water.

At the age of 74 and already slight of build, Mahatma Gandhi survived 21 days of total starvation while only allowing himself sips of water.

wraithstrike wrote:
11th level is not average. It is exceptional, and legendary. Most mayors never get to look at 9th level. Blacksmiths would be lucky to get past level 5, and kings dont see 20. "Regular" NPC's can't squash them either. I am sure there are NPC's that fit the above criteria, but it is the exception, not the norm.

This is true, if you look at the NPCs in the setting books you'll see that most major NPCs top out around 14th level and those are major players.

If you're 11th level, you're likely one of the most powerful people in any given town. At least until you get to Larger cities or a metropolis where you would still be pretty powerful.

As far as the NPC classes go, I typically consider them to be half of their listed level when comparing them to a PC. Thus a 12th leval blacksmith might be on par with a 6th level character in ability, but most likely not in power.

Shar Tahl wrote:
Heroes do not need to be severely flawed to be interesting.

Tell that to Shakespeare, or the ancient Greeks. LOL

You're right though, characters don't HAVE to be flawed to be interesting... but it helps.

Flaws make characters MORE interesting. Flaws are sources of drama and conflict that are character driven, rather than GM driven. When the conflicts in a game are more character driven it makes the campaign more personal for the players, because the characters more important to the story.

As a GM I always ask players to tag their characters with a flaw that will come up in play. Generally they don't have many mechanical effects, but they certainly effect play in a lot of ways.

I my last campaign we had
A Witch who was an escaped mental patient that heard voices
An Oracle with an inferiority complex
An Alchemist who was being hunted for poisoning a village
A revenge obsessed Rogue that was a former slave of the Gorilla king

Now, I haven't run a module or AP in well over a decade, so I'm not sure how this style of play fits into a "pre fab" campaign, but I don't think it would be too difficult to incorporate.

Xum wrote:

I don't disagree with you. But the main problem I see is in character. For instance, why the HELL would a cowardly character get into a demon infested dungeon with a bunch of bloodthirsty guys?

Why would anyone share their hard earned treasure with someone that did nothing to help?


Seriously though, maybe they're friends. Everyone has at least one friend that isn't quite up to par, but you don't throw him to the curb. It's not like he's selling out the group to the enemy for 30 silver pieces.

Hell, even Eric Cartman has friends.

And why should he get XP for monsters he did not help defeat? Just being in the same room does not count you know?

Because the system doesn't reward characters for roelplaying, which is stupid considering that it's a "roleplaying" game.

On a related note, my character for our new campaign is a Charlatan2/Wizard2 who is starting play without a spell book. He just escaped from prison and has no money to buy scrolls let alone copy them into a spell book.

And that's the toned down character. Originally the GM and I were planning to have him start out with a Geas Quest on him that prevented him from casting spells at all, but it didn't make sense after we made some changes to his back story.

I think it makes my character so much cooler than normal. I do get to start one level higher than everyone else though, but it's not much of a benefit.

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SeaBiscuit01 wrote:

He is a newly acquired friend, but I've known him around 10 years. I do care for him. He is a good guy.

He doesnt, god I hope he doesnt find it, I'm trying my best to cite facts in here.

The fact is, he is summed up as a old guard roleplayer that prefers pure roleplaying games. My guess is that he would be far better playing Burning Wheel or Call of Chutulu rather than Pathfinder

My guess is that you are probably right, but I'm betting that he can't find a group willing to play those games. He's probably only playing in your campaign because that's what everyone else wants to play. Chances are he doesn't even like Pathfinder that much, at least not the way you guys play it. It's a pretty issue these days and I've experienced it myself. For a long time I "sucked it up" and played in groups I didn't fit in, out of necessity.

My guess is that he is desperately trying to make the game fun for him by playing it more RP style and that's difficult to do when he's not only fighting the system, but the other players. Playing in an AP doesn't help either. It sounds like the GM is the only one that has his back at all.

If you're truly his friend, maybe you can work with him a bit and work around his style of play. Try RPing more and putting fewer combat expectations on him. I bet if he starts having more fun he'll find ways to make his character useful in the campaign. A player's first priority is having fun, everyone else having fun is a close second. Let him get to his own fun first.

Back on the subject of character death. How many of those deaths were followed by raise dead spells? Once your cleric can cast 5th level spells, death is meaningless. Collect the corpses and start praying.

Also, are you winning? Are the bad guys ultimately being defeated?

You never answered one of my original questions.
Is this guy your friend?
Do you even know him outside of the game?
Is he friends with anyone in the group? How many of you?

Maybe he just doesn't like you guys, in which case why should he care if your characters are dieing?

All we have to go on is what you tell us. Does he know about this thread? Maybe he can chime in with his perspective.

There are all kinds of reasons why this problem exists and without knowing more or hearing from both sides we're all just talking out of out butts.

Let me sit in on one session and I can tell you exactly what the problem is, but until that happens we're all just guessing.

I've been playing D&D/Pathfinder for 25+ years and in that time have never had a DM hose one of my wizards by taking/destroying his spell book. And I've played with some pretty hard core ruthless DMs.

On occasion my wizard might be deprived of his spell book while captured, but it was always stashed in a trunk nearby to find after escaping our captors. I honestly don't think any DM that you can call a friend IRL is going to totally hose your character like that.

However, if your character does have backup spell books and scrolls plus the available cash and time to easily replace a spell book, I see no problem with a DM targeting a spell book. If he's nice he'll wait to do it when you have a lot of your spells still memorized so you can get by for a day or two until you can access your backups.

On the subject of sundering a weapon vs destroying a spell book, I think the true equivalent would be destroying a spell book vs reducing a fighter's BAB to 1, thus likely making him unqualified for most of his feats.

He may just be bored.
Combat with 6 characters is often far too long, especially at higher levels. As a rogue with a low BAB, sometimes taking no actions in combat is the best option. It means the tanks get to go sooner and wrap up combat.

Ok, then
Here's the OGL description of Rogue. Note the lack of ANY combat reference.

"Life is an endless adventure for those who live by their wits. Ever just one step ahead of danger, rogues bank on their cunning, skill, and charm to bend fate to their favor. Never knowing what to expect, they prepare for everything, becoming masters of a wide variety of skills, training themselves to be adept manipulators, agile acrobats, shadowy stalkers, or masters of any of dozens of other professions or talents. Thieves and gamblers, fast talkers and diplomats, bandits and bounty hunters, and explorers and investigators all might be considered rogues, as well as countless other professions that rely upon wits, prowess, or luck."

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My party is a well stablished adventiring company currently level 11-12 on its way to Sins of the Savior module.

- His gear is mainly for flavor (Hey do you want a Ring of Deflection +2? No thanks my Ring of Sustenance is awesome!)
He does a decent job with trap disarming

Sounds like you've gotten by pretty well for 12 levels with his "ineffectiveness", so why is this a problem now? Do your characters charge into combat expecting the rogue to suddenly become someone else?. Does he ever say he's going to help in combat and then doesn't? Plan your attacks better I say.

Seriously, you're playing 6 characters in a 4 character AP, you can stand to have a second noncombat character in the group IMO.

This sounds more like a personal problem than a game problem. Is this guy a friend of yours, because you don't sound like a friend of his.

And it sounds like he turns down his share of the treasure anyway. If he's turning down rings of protection+2, that means someone else (maybe your character) is getting it. So, basically he disarms traps for you for minimal compensation. That sounds like a fair deal to me.

The classes (from my point of view) are done to fulfill a role. And the rogue (from my perspective) is done to dish high spiky damage, be a buttload of skills and disarm traps (among other things).

Rogues only do spikey damage under specific circumstances, so no, that is not what they are designed for. This is especially the case in older versions of the game that didn't let you sneak attack because you were flanking. Back in my day you had to actually "sneak" up on someone to sneak attack them and you typically only got to do this ONCE per combat.

Rogues are skill based characters and historically have no place in combat. Can you make a combat rogue? Sure, but why would you when you can make a fighter and get more feats, more hit points and can wear better armor? And why bother when the rest of the group can clearly handle that part of the game without you

This is the definition of a Rogue
1. An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal.
2. One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp.
3. A wandering beggar; a vagrant.

I don't see anything in there about Spikey damage.

I dont know if I'm making a huge mess but last time I checked a lot of characters have died in our adventures and the rogue usually survives

Maybe the rest of you should take a page from the rogue's playbook and you won't die so much. Like death even means anything at 12th level. You have a Cleric & a witch with Raise Dead spells coming out their ears. And if by some chance they both bite it, good thing you have a rogue who can cast Raise Dead off a scroll with Use Magic Device. Good luck getting one of the other characters to pull that one off.

And for the record, I'm quite certain that all of the character deaths have far more to do with the game being broken at 12th level than your lack of a few sneak attacks. At that level a GM has three choices, avoid combat entirely, let the party walk through combats, or jack up the bad guys to the point where someone is certain to die.

by not being in line of sight of the monsters, and running away from danger. In my opinion not being HEROIC NOR ADVENTURING.

As the Wizard of Oz says, "As for you my fine friend, you are a victim of disorganised thinking. You are under the unfortunate delusion that simply because you run away from danger, you have no courage. You're confusing courage with wisdom."

And didn't you say his character had a high Wisdom?


- Is he being rewarded by acting as a coward?

Doesn't sound like it if he's turning down treasure. And maybe cowardice has nothing to do with it. Maybe he's being rewarded for roleplaying instead.


- Is optimizing your character wrong?

No, but it's also not a requirement to play the game or to have fun doing so.


- Is not contributing to combat at all ok for your standards?

Absolutely. If a player makes a non-combat character, the GM should give the character other things to do. If he's not, then the problem is the GM, not the player. 

- Am I a huge drama queen?

Well, you're something all right. LOL

James Jacobs wrote:

If by "relationship score" you mean a "romance score," that number is completely arbitrary.

I was actually referring to both. In first part of my original post I was referring to Relationship Scores. Based on rules, your Relationship Score with each NPC starts out equal to your Charisma Modifier or Charisma Modifier +4 if you have a campaign trait.

What I'm wondering is if NPCs that have already been established in your character's back story as being friends can start higher. My guess is that it would be up to the DM, but I'd like your opinion.

James Jacobs wrote:
Matt Gwinn wrote:
The Player's Guide mentioned there were special evens in the AP that can increase relationship scores, but I could not find any. Am I missing something?
Check the sidebar on page 50 of "Brinewall Legacy" for that adventure's special relationship score boosts. We'll be doing sidebars like that throughout the AP.

Thanks. For some reason that instance of "Relationship" didn't catch when I searched the PDF for it.

Ok, so I broke down and bought the PDF of The Brinewall Legacy to see the NPCs. After looking them over and rereading the rules for Relationships, I'm wondering if the math works out.

You can increase any relationship is by +1 to +3 per level and you have to have a pretty high Diplomacy score to pull off the +3 and it gets increasingly harder as you go.

Starting a Romance seems mathematically unlikely even at high levels. It doesn't really make much sense either that only high level characters can have Romances.

Or are the Romance Scores of the AP's NPCs unusually high for some reason?

The Player's Guide mentioned there were special evens in the AP that can increase relationship scores, but I could not find any. Am I missing something?

Akritas wrote:
Sorry, I meant somebody good at the knowledge skills. I didn't even know there is such a thing as the Loremaster prestige class. :P Bard and Wizard could work mechanically, but I was really trying to get a bit more of a Law theme for the character, who is basically going adventuring due to a devotion to ideals. Paladin and cleric seem best for that, but being physically strong doesn't fit the background either so I am trying to avoid melee. Maybe I am trying to make something that doesn't exist...

You can do that with any character class.

A Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good Bard is perfectly doable.

If you need something more mechanical rules wise, use one of the many archetypes like demagogue rchetypes/demagogue

or Detective rchetypes/detective

When you say Loremaster are you referring to the Loremaster Prestige class or someone who is a master of lore?

I'd say go with a Bard

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