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The problem is that this happens with most of Paizo's major options books at this point. Ultimate Magic, Mythic Adventures, and the Advanced Class Guide all had major editing and balancing problems. The only one in recent memory that wasn't like this was the Advaned Race Guide.
I hope that they find some way to give themselves more editing time for these things.
These have already been posted elsewhere, but just to make sure paizo knows I may as well repeat them......
Page 90: The Daring Champion has both Challenge and Presise Strike, effeictively giving it double level to damage. I'm pretty sure this wasn't intended.
Page 104: Techically, the Arcane Deed doesn't say that the magus treats his Magus level as his Swashbuckler Level for these deeds.
And just to really make sure that Paizo knows:
Sorry, I guess I took it the wrong way XD
In any case, I guess part of the reason why I was asking this question (aside from PFS problems) because I was trying figure out if Paizo really intended to give classes like the magus such a random and easy to get damage boost, or if something in the wording meant that they didn't intend it that way. Ah well, I guess they would have to do some darastic FAQing and Erata to take it back now, slight vagueness or not.
I'd preffer it if you don't say it in an insulting way. The problem is that I play in PFS and I have to follow the rules RAW as written. Not as intended.
This might be obvious enough that we will be able to get away with it, but then again we might not. I could run into GMs that say that I don't get my damage bonus, and I'll have a wasted Arcana choice because of it.
So, I have been seeing a lot of people on the boards talking about how Arcane Deed can give a Magus a huge damage boost by picking up Precise Strike. However, part of the wording of Arcane Deed makes me wonder if it really works that way.
Arcane Deed wrote:
Arcane Deed doesn't say anything about gaining the passive effects of a Swashbucker Deed. It doesn't even say that the Magus really gains the dead. All it says is that you can use a point from your arcane pool in place of a panache point to use the deed. Maybe this was intended to place a limit on what deeds a magus could really benefit from?
Yea, I may just be reading into the rules too much, but I figured I should draw attention to this to see if it needs to be put in the FAQ.
EDIT: I just thought of something else. There is nothing in either Arcane Deed or Flamboyant Arcana that gives the Magus a swashbuckler level when using the deeds. So presice strike would give the magus a +0 damage bonus as written anyway....
Another Edit: Just so you know, I am asking this partly because I play in PFS. We often have to follow the rules as written regardless of the intent until the FAQ says otherwise. Because of that, the writting is a bit problematic here.
A spontanious caster then has to spend another 1000g to make up for the spell known that they're wasting on ant haul. And then if it is dispelled in mid combat you'd better hope that you're not one of those classes that loses their abilities when they're encumbered...
It is doable, I'm just not sure that I like that method.
Hmmm, if we were able to get an errata for the Dampire variants, I wonder if the same could be done for the skinwalkers? There are a few issues with them.
Witchwolves for example, their name and their description make them out to be all about being witches and that their witches are their leaders and the strongest members of their packs. However, they have a racial penalty to intelligence! They make terrible witches. The only work around is if they're allowed to use that Orc only Scarred Witchdoctor archetype that lets them use Con as their primary casting stat.
Werebear kin are described has suddenly gaining a burst of strength when they first shapeshift, but have a Con bonus instead of a Strength bonus.
There's also the weird issue with several types of skinwalkers gaining mental stats instead of physical stats when they shapeshift, which hurts their spellcasters (they have to stay shifted for a day to get bonus spells) and is thematically problematic.
I'm only pointing these things out of love for skinwalkers and a desire for their stats to match up more with their descriptions ;)
Hayato Ken wrote:
I actually converted my planned kitsune swashbuckler into a Magus now that it is possible to make a Cha magus. Magic using classes seem to fit the race better :)
Spirit Summoner looks like it was banned from PFS due to theme argument reasons, not power ones. The Eidolon cannot take powers or abilities that are not appropriate to the chosen spirit. This can cause all kinds of angst at the table and is a pain to enforce.
That's a very good point. I was kind of wondering how that would be enforced in PFS, and now I know XD
The thing that really bothers me about the new Dex to Damage feat isn't how it works. It is the 'Weapon Focus' prerequisite and how much it hurts non-humans.
If you are a non-human swashbuckler and want to pick up dex to damage on a weapon with this feat, you have to pick up weapon focus on a weapon that you *can't use with swashbucker's finesse*. Then you are stuck with that useless weapon finesse feat for two levels until you get Slashing Grace. Humans just pick up both at first level.
As much as I am glad that we at least have a Dex to Damage feat... This is like dealing with the Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot requirements of archery at low levels all over again.
Are these pummeling paladins (and others) restricted to making one big unarmed strike at the end of a charge?
Pummeling Style can be thought of as a nerfed version of Mythic Vital Strike. Nerfed in that you still have to worry about your lower bab attacks missing and not being combined into the one big attack. And it takes a full round action/charge to use.
There is nothing saying that it has to be an unarmed strike... but I wouldn't be surprised if that part got errataed.
Hmmm, I guess you are right. Ah well, I guess every class can effectively get something better than pounce at the cost of three feats now XD
The one thing holding back the crazyness is that non monks/brawlers can't get the charge version until level 12+ .. and that it costs 3 feats.
I'm pretty sure they meant that to be BAB +6 AND (Brawler's Flurry or Flurry of Blows). Otherwise they wouldn't have put in Monk and Brawler level requirements as an alternative to BAB.
The black raven wrote:
I also have to say that Pummling Style for monks is amazing, even if they get it a bit late.
The more I read, the more this becomes my favorate book from Paizo ever.
The number of options in the book is staggering. I especially love the options that let you create a character with abilities from other classes. There are a number of characters concepts that I was unable to build effectively a year or two ago that I am now able to build because of this book.
Can I ask a question: Why are you even using Mythic? I mean, you might as well not use Mythic at all. It's not like you can't use WotR with standard characters. If you never use any of the Mythic abilities of the enemies (leaving hit points and damage output as-is) then the extra magic items in the module help compensate for the increased difficulty.
Good question. Well, personally I like the mythic abilities that give fancy powers, but I hate the ones that simply increase the numbers (including damage, ability scores, spells per day and such). Basically, I think the numbers in pathfinder are high enough already, and that mythic needs to be more about awesome powers. So, if I run a mythic game I will probably edit the rules to reflect that.
I've said two times already that I'm banning the 3rd Tier rest ability in my games, and I just said in my last post that I'm fine with Arcane Surge and Recalled Blessing becoming less useful. Infact, that is the entire point of the change.
The abilities would still work pefectly well as utility powers. You'd either pick the ability to make non mythics save twice, or cast any spell from the rulebooks. Arcane Surge and Recalled Blessing would still allow you to cast any spell that you had prepared that day (or is on your spells known list) at the cost of any slot of the right level. They just wouldn't give you an additional +20 spells per day.
If there is some technicality in how these work that would prevent it from working the way I want, then I will just edit them more.
I think it is obvious that we are just speaking past eachother, so we should just agree to disagree.
So, if I have a Swashbuckler take say... a one level dip into Cleric, I'd be able to pick up charisma to saves at level 5?
It is a one handed weapon. I just happens to be a light one handed weapon. I think you all are parsing the language too much.
A sorcerer or oracle would take it if they wanted to be able to spend a mythic point to cast any spell from the entire class' spell list. They would still benefit from this ability far more than wizards and clerics, who can often choose from their entire spell list at the start of the day.
Admittedly Arcane Surge and Recalled blessing would be less useful, but those were objectively bad compared to simply using Wild Arcana/Inspired Spell with free persistent metamagic in the first place.
As for the third tier ability, that is on my banned list (same as my current GM's game). ;)
But yea, I just think a few steps need to be taken to keep the resources that the players are using in a day relevant. It depends on the game you want to run.
The fact that you keep mentioning sorcerers makes me believe that you're still misunderstanding me. I've been saying that it should cost a spell slot or spell use per day. Not a slot containing the exact same spell that you're casting or something.
My suggested change doesn't affect how the ability works at all, aside from the additional cost that would make it more difficult for people to cast 20+ meteor swarms per day.
From what I know, he's just a standard wizard. No fancy multiclassing. The one thing that may have pushed it over the edge is the feat Spell Perfection(fireball).
I've seen it. The wizard in my party killed a group of four Thanatotic Titans with two heavily metamagiced augmented mythic fireballs + channel power. In a single round, with the first action the party had in the combat.
The GM hasn't bothered sending a non-mythic fight at us ever since.
Ummm, you are completely forgetting about Wild Arcana and Inspired Spell. I can't imagine a senario where a full caster wouldn't want to get one of these abilities even if I make them cost spell slots in addition to mythic power.
Also, many GMs remove the ability to rest for an hour to gain all your spells back. Adding in this additional cost works very well with getting the number of resources that mythic characters have back under control. Plus, it isn't like GMs aren't nerfing martial characters as well, so please don't take my suggestion as something I would use by itself.
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Whatever it is, I hope it is possible for a non-human to pick it up at 1st level. I am tired of my dex characters doing 1/4th of the damage of a strength character at low levels, lol.
When did I say that? One power lets you cast a spell which makes non-mythics have to roll twice on their save. The other lets you cast any spell (including those you don't know) at +2 caster level.
I was merely suggesting that a spell slot equal to the level of the spell should be expended when doing this rather than it only costing a mythic power. These abilities are still very good even with this additional cost.
Ross Byers wrote:
I just hope that there is a to-hit buff on the class somewhere (like you suggested) so the difference isn't a +10 or +15 compared to the fighter or ranger at level 20.
Davic The Grey wrote:
Have the Animal Focus bonuses been changed to something other than enhancement? While nice at low levels and in low magic campagins, once the typical blets and headbands come into play the Animal Focus becomes useless to the Hunter himself and only help the companion in which case why give it to the hunter at all? Otherwise I love the class, can't wait to play it.
Well, if the bonuses last long enough then that actually lets you use something other than enhancement bonus items in those item slots *gasp!*
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Question: What's stopping me from keeping my animal companion dead and reaping four succulent benefits? How does that ability work?
I'm guessing that this is a temporary boost to help you in the battle where the animal died. That way you don't become immediately useless when you lose your teamwork pet ;)
I totally created a human swashblucker who is going to turn into a kitsune as soon as they are legal without a boon. :)
I think part of the problem was that they were basically immune to the abilities of the enemies in several senarios because they weren't humanoid. I haven't seen this be an issue in person though.
Wait, the pregens are based on the playtest rather than the final product? Are we sure of this?
If so, my hope for the final product has increased greatly. I was really disappointed at how some of the problems with the playtest classes (especially low level swashbucklers) didn't seem to have been addressed.
Vic Wertz wrote:
wish list = appropriate.
Well, I won't stop then ;)
I may as well point out that aside from summoners, one of the most commonly banned classes is the gunslinger. This often isn't because people don't like guns: many people simply dislike the fact that guns use touch attack mechanics.
Personally, the idea that even a non-magical simple firearm can simply ignore +5 Full Plate completely destroys my suspension of disbelief. After all, in real life it was often possible to buy (non-magical) armor that could stop a bullet from an early gun if you were rich enough and willing to learn to wear the armor. Unless I am mistaken, early guns had barely more penetration power than a longbow.
I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in an optional rule that replaces the current gun mechanics with something that fits more with the way other weapons function in Pathfinder without making gunslingers underpowered.
I just don't get it when people complain that eidolons are more powerful than animal companions. The eidolon is the main point of being a summoner, while every class that uses an animal companion gets them as a secondary feature. I would be increadibly disapointed in the summoner class if the eidolon was any weaker than it currently is.
Edit: Druids with their full spellcasting, animal companion, easy summons *on top of* having an animal companion, and shapeshifting are arguabily far more powerful than a summoner. Druids just require more system mastery.