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Red Dragon

Matrix Dragon's page

1,130 posts. Alias of Matrixryu.


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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Well, like I'd said earlier, there were several factors involved, from burnout to chronic pain. I used to be a lot more on the ball than I am now, and even the obvious sometimes escapes me. I've been working on something really big for my campaign lately and I really hope to be more on target than I have in a long time.

As someone who has also been a gamer/GM dealing with chronic pain, personally I would suggest taking it slow for a while and focusing on finding ways to eliminate the pain. I don't know what you're dealing with, but if you can get things under control I bet you'll be able to focus on the game more and find things more enjoyable.

Just make sure that you have the right doctors! I suffered for a long time because the first ones that I went to gave me a completely wrong diagnosis.


Agathion eidolons are missing the ability to select a few animal themed evolutions: Mount and Trip. Also, they should be able to select the Serpentine base form since the Draconal Agathion has a serpentine form. Of course, if this form were added then Agathions should also be able to take the following evolutions: Poison and Constrict.


Mark Seifter wrote:
FLite wrote:
Also, can you help us understand why the decision was made to not allow any of the good races to take the mount evolution?
I'm not sure about agathions. The other ones mostly don't have the correct base forms anyway (and the azata serpentine has arms like the lillend, which would make it both a little odd and kind of risque).

Hey Mark, I just wanted to point this out as another weird evolution limitation. I was trying to create a "Celestial Wolf" themed agathion eidolon, but found that for some reason they can't take the trip evolution.


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Every time people talk about eidolon attacks vs a barbarian or paladin's attacks, they never seem to mention how horribly inaccurate the eidolon is. The extra attacks are nice, but they almost never all hit!


kestral287 wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
My suggestion is to have the player use the spirit summoner archetype. It replaces the summon monster abilities with additional spells, hexes, and a minor buff to the eidolon.

Hm. I must be missing something... how is Spirit Summoner buffing the eidolon?

He might like it due to having some more flexibility with spells, but it looks like the Eidolon is strictly worse off due to losing Maker's Call/Transposition.

Don't get me wrong, I like the archetype and it's definitely an option, but... doesn't seem like quite what I'm hunting for.

The eidolon gains the spirit ability that the shaman spirit would gain. For example, a life eidolon gains fast healing 1, a fire eidolon gains immunity to fire, a battle eidolon gains +2 natural armor.

Edit: In addition, the hexes, spells, and spirit abilities that the summoner gets are really good for supporting the eidolon. Depending on what spirit the summoner chooses he could gain Channel Energy, an several round/day attack/damage buff for the party, or the ability to add Fireball to his spells known.

Knowing him, it'd be Fireball.

That said, d20pfsrd must be missing part of that archetype, as it says nothing about the spirit animal's ability.

*rereads it*

Huh, I actually I think I was mistaken. I could have sworn that the eidolon gained the spirit ability, but I can't find it now. Sorry XD

Oh well, he can still get fireball though ;)


kestral287 wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
My suggestion is to have the player use the spirit summoner archetype. It replaces the summon monster abilities with additional spells, hexes, and a minor buff to the eidolon.

Hm. I must be missing something... how is Spirit Summoner buffing the eidolon?

He might like it due to having some more flexibility with spells, but it looks like the Eidolon is strictly worse off due to losing Maker's Call/Transposition.

Don't get me wrong, I like the archetype and it's definitely an option, but... doesn't seem like quite what I'm hunting for.

The eidolon gains the spirit ability that the shaman spirit would gain. For example, a life eidolon gains fast healing 1, a fire eidolon gains immunity to fire, a battle eidolon gains +2 natural armor.

Edit: In addition, the hexes, spells, and spirit abilities that the summoner gets are really good for supporting the eidolon. Depending on what spirit the summoner chooses he could gain Channel Energy, an several round/day attack/damage buff for the party, or the ability to add Fireball to his spells known.


My suggestion is to have the player use the spirit summoner archetype. It replaces the summon monster abilities with additional spells, hexes, and a minor buff to the eidolon.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
FLite wrote:
Also, can you help us understand why the decision was made to not allow any of the good races to take the mount evolution?
I'm not sure about agathions. The other ones mostly don't have the correct base forms anyway (and the azata serpentine has arms like the lillend, which would make it both a little odd and kind of risque).

I'd just like to point out that the bestiary entry for Agathions says the following: "Some are more humanoid in appearance, while others spend their entire existence in a form nearly identical to that of a true animal". Since you can effectively have Agathions that are nearly identical to real world creatures, the mount evolution fits them perfectly.

Sooo, if you guys do end up errating away the mount evolution for devils, we'd appreciate it being added for the Agathions ;)


I do like how these eidolon subtypes make it much easier for the devs to create new types of eidolons. What used to take an entire archetype now just needs a single entry that takes 1/4th of a page.

Though, I guess if they wanted more exotic types of eidolons (such as fey or dragons) to be closer to the real thing then their hit dice would need to be adjusted.


FLite wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
FLite wrote:
Actually, now that I think about it, the biggest problem with summoning a draconic or a lovecraftian, is that one is a dragon, and the other is an abberation. Neither is an outsider, or, for that matter, an extraplanar fey.
Techically, primal dragons are all extraplanar and are valid targets for Gate spells even if they aren't outsiders. Thematically they work just fine as eidolons. Luckily we can kind of mimic them with elemental eidolons, but it isn't a perfect fit.
Why not? They are from the elemental planes, I would think that modeling them with elementals is a very good fit. They even seem to have the right movement types. (except cloud dragon, which has swim, not fly according to d20pfsrd, which I am hoping is an error.) Umbral is the only one that seems to be a problem.

Well, technically the primal dragons don't get all the immunities that elementals get, so they are obviously just stand ins for real dragons. Primal dragons should be getting spell resistance and fear auras instead of immunity to critical hits and such.

Selecting all the powers that a dragon *should* have is extremely expensive, and some of them are prime candidates for abilities that should be part of their eidolon subtype.

Edit: For example, selecting the evolutions Breath Weapon(3/day), Blindsense, Spell Resistance, and Frightful Presense eat up a total of 14(!) evolution points. Unless you are a Half-Elf or something, that eats up all of your evolution points at *level 18*, and you haven't even spent any of them on the other iconic dragon stuff like claws, wings, and a tail slap!

If anything needs its own eidolon type, it is dragons. In fact, the way eidolon types can make it less painful to get these sorts of iconic abilities is one of the things I like the most about the unchained summoner (even if I think they reduced the main evolution pool a bit too much).


FLite wrote:
Actually, now that I think about it, the biggest problem with summoning a draconic or a lovecraftian, is that one is a dragon, and the other is an abberation. Neither is an outsider, or, for that matter, an extraplanar fey.

Techically, primal dragons are all extraplanar and are valid targets for Gate spells even if they aren't outsiders. Thematically they work just fine as eidolons. Luckily we can kind of mimic them with elemental eidolons, but it isn't a perfect fit.


kestral287 wrote:
Can someone post an actual eidolon concept/build that is now impossible, so we have something to work with rather than "Lovecraft thing"?

It is impossible to make a 'beast type' eidolon who can be ridden because agathions can't take the mount evolution. Sure, there are other outsider types that can be quadrupeds, but the agathions are kind of iconic. That you can ride a devil but not THE beast type outsider kind of baffles me. I'm hoping that it is just an error that will be fixed with an errata later.

The best a good aligned character can hope for right now is to ride an elemental or protean, and Lawful Good characters can't get an eidolon with the mount evolution at all.


Hey James!

Question: there are several classes in pathfinder now that can interact with 'spirits'. There's specifically the Shaman, and then there are several archetypes of other classes such as the Spirit Guide Oracle and Spirit Summoner. However, the spirits themselves are not very well defined.

1. In Pathfinder, what exactly is a spirit? The existance of the Kami and the Spirit Summoner suggest that spirits are some type of exotic outsiders, but the fey are also implied to be 'spirits' at times.

2. Are there any bestiary monsters that are 'spirits' aside from the Kami? Perhaps the fey?


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Hey! I don't remember seeing a video of anyone getting punched with the gauntlet! I think that has to happen before we donate anything this year ;)


Hey Mark!

Just wanted to ask you about something that I'm kind of surprised that the Unchained Summoner didn't clarify. When an eidolon is given an item, does he drop it when it is unsummoned or does it stay in his possession? Or is this one of those things that we need to push up the FAQ stack in order to find out?

Personally, I hope that the items stay with the eidolon because it would be a huge hassle to have to have it re-equip a half dozen things each time it was summoned!


Robert Brookes wrote:
A multi-eidolon (but still 1 at a time) could be cool. Would probably need to lose armor training for the summoner and the summon monster SLA. Might restrict eidolon rebuilds at level up too. Stagger the new eidolons in at different levels. Might modify Twin Eidolon to allow two different ones to be out at the same time. It's a reasonable concept.

Yep, I think it could be a lot of fun! I think it would also be balanced by the fact that item slots would probably be shared between the summoner and *all* of the eidolons, so they wouldn't all end up being truely as powerful as a single eidolon summoner. Unless he took the time to unequip and re-equip the eidolons on each summon.


Ross Byers wrote:
Doesn't the Brood Summoner already do that?

Brood Summoner can have multiple weak eidolons out at the same time, right? What a lot of people want is a summoner that has several different full strength eidolons, but can only have one out at a time.


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houstonderek wrote:

Here's one place Hasbro is winning. To the vast majority of the population, if they see a bunch of people gaming, they assume "Dungeons and Dragons". Outside of our bubble, no one knows what the hell "Paizo" or "Pathfinder" are.

Well, people used to think that all video game systems were "nintendos". These sorts of things don't last forever, though it will probably take longer in a smaller market like this one.


LazarX wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

First time PFS =! first time pathfinder.

I find it somewhat suspicious that a person who's claimed never to have played Pathfinder before, would ask for the Summoner for his first character.

*raises hand* When I joined my first pathfinder campaign I asked if I could play the APG Playtest Summoner. So... it happens. Some people do their research before joining a game, and simply gravitate towards the classes that interest them the most.


Matthew Trent wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
You have to be hit and then fail a dc 14 fort save.

False. The save is to make the negative level permanent 24 hours later. Its take a hit and then die if you are level one. Then rise again in a few rounds as another undead horror.

Yea, this was one of the first PFS games that I did. My party would have lost (at least) 2 characters to the negative levels if the GM hadn't misinterpreted the rules and allowed them to make their fort saves on the spot. I knew he was wrong, but I certainly wasn't going to argue with him about it!

If he had one shot the characters, it would have been a party wipe right there and I wouldn't have been surprised if several people decided to never play PFS again. There was a lot of BS in that module that should not have been taken on by a party of level 1 characters.


The closest thing to this you can do without getting into a rules arguement with someone is using swallow whole, and THEN digging underground.

Bonus points if it was an eidolon that did this, and then you dismiss the eidolon while he is burrowed underground.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.
You do get a lot more. I think someone upthread pointed out one subtype where, in exchange for the 11 evo points you lose over 20 levels, you get 18 evo points worth evolutions and several additional abilities that eidolons normally can never buy as evos.
Really? Hmmm, I guess it seemed a bit more 'even' to me since I tend to ignore capstone abilities.
Capstones excluded, then. At level 16, a protean eidolon (the kind quoted upthread) is down 9 points in the evo pool, has roughly 18 points of evolutions, and has an additional special ability (amorphous anatomy).

I stand corrected, though I do have to point out that Proteans seem to be on the upper end of abilities gained. Angels at level 16 have roughly 11 evo points worth of stuff, plus immunity to petrification and the truespeech (which is admittedly pretty cool). I'm not counting the resistance evolutions since those are overwritten by the immunities. ;)

When I was worrying over the points lost vs abilities gained thing, I guess I was looking more at the worst cases.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.
You do get a lot more. I think someone upthread pointed out one subtype where, in exchange for the 11 evo points you lose over 20 levels, you get 18 evo points worth evolutions and several additional abilities that eidolons normally can never buy as evos.

Really? Hmmm, I guess it seemed a bit more 'even' to me since I tend to ignore capstone abilities.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.
Unless part of their goal with the new class was an intentional nerf.

It isn't like giving the eidolons 1 or 2 more non-optimal evolutions that no one would ever want to buy (like breath weapons or no breath) would have made that much of a difference.


After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.


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The NPC wrote:

Mr. Mark Seifter,

Are eidolons allowed to use the variant multi class rules? What about a rogue eidolon?

Lol, we can totally create a rogue rogue eidolon now. A rogue eidolon with the rogue VMC.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
London Duke wrote:
I didnt realize it was only a bonus to melee attacks and damage for the barbarian's new rage mechanic. It does seem like the barbarian's damage will take a bit of a nerf due to not being augmented higher for 2handed weapons combat. Or is the bonus increased when using a 2handed weapon?
It isn't, but even at Greater Rage, that's only -2 damage per hit, which is simply not that big a deal.

The real nerf is that barbarians no longer benefit from the courageous weapon enchantment because the bonuses are no longer moral bonuses. Though, the whole furious courageous weapon thing was kind of silly.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:

Alright, finally got the book and I want to just make a few quick comments here.

First, some of the eidolon templates are really good. Elementals are amazing and get a huge number of abilities, Azatas get weapon proficency at level 1, Agathons get a full powered lay-on-hands ability.

*edit*

DELETED. I misread something badly XD

EDIT: No worries! Glad you like the fun and amazing new abilities! New eidolons will probably actually be a little stronger than before if you were going to buy those types of evolutions anyway, and eidolons overall will just be more balanced in their approach, rather than having all the eggs into the offense basket!

Haha, sorry about that. That's what I get for reading too fast XD


Alright, finally got the book and I want to just make a few quick comments here.

First, some of the eidolon templates are really good. Elementals are amazing and get a huge number of abilities, Azatas get weapon proficiency at level 1, Agathons get a full powered lay-on-hands ability. Most eidolon types get resistance 10 to three or four elements by level 5. While not all of them will always be useful in combat, they are all nice flavor wise.

I don't think all of them are fully worth all the evolution points that were lost though, but they always at least come close. Having only one evolution point instead of three at level one is really really harsh though! I think I might be able to work with it though.

*edit*

DELETED. I misread something pretty badly and thought that I found an error XD


Epic Meepo wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
I think I'll also give all summoners a bonus evolution point at every 4th level and then ban the half-elf favored class bonus so people don't feel like they have to be half-elfs to be effective.
Why not just unchain the half-elf favored class bonus by letting any summoner take it, regardless of race?

That is another (simpler) option, but I don't really like the thought of everyone using the same favored class bonus.


Eltacolibre wrote:
Kerney wrote:

The one thing I've noticed about summoner fans is that they've really enjoyed coming up with themes for their Eidolons, rather like Sorcerer players in 3.5 who could come up with really cool themes without the need for built in themes.

One of complaints I've heard from fans of the current summoner and stated is that the eidolon is funneled into being a combat monster as opposed to a mage or skill monkey or something else. True, you can build a skill monkey and the magical abilities exist (they are just really, really horrible), but there are no archetypes that let you start your eidilon with a lower strength, a higher intelligence or charisma or raise them rather than dex/str.

Based off what I've seen, I fear we are going to get 10-15 chassis for combat monsters, cost increases for everything that makes them distinct and fewer evolution points. I think there is going to be less room for cool eidilons, and it becoming much harder to come up with anything other than a combat monster.

My fear, based off what I've heard on these boards(and not seeing it yet I hope I'm wrong) is that the new version of the summoner is nothing BUT a nerf with a straight jacket added for good measure, rather than anything to be excited about or actually play. It seems to be an overreaction to the perceived strength of the class so that it doesn't attract new players and at the same time alienates many of the fans that find the current class attractive.

Based off what I've heard so far, I'll probably not be buying this book.

That's the thing most of the people discussing stuffs right now, don't even have the book. They are just using what somebody else says...You can still different make kinds of eidolon, actually much easier than before. Psychopomp eidolon gets the monster ability spirit touch at 3rd level, which means their natural weapon and anything they wield have ghost touch by default. All elemental eidolons for example are immune to sleep and paralysis from 1st level and eventually...

Huh, it does sound like the abilities gained from the types are better than what I was lead to believe.


What I'll probably do is use the unchained summoner in my games, but fix some of the eidolon's glaring issues that were unaddressed (from what I hear). The main issue is that eidolons have *terrible* saving throws (worse than a rogue!) and on top of that they can't wear a cloak of resistance without leaving the summoner vulnerable.

I wouldn't mind the eidolon getting weakened offensively if it at least wasn't going to get one shot by every spellcaster it runs into anymore.

I think I'll also give all summoners a bonus evolution point at every 4th level and then ban the half-elf favored class bonus so people don't feel like they have to be half-elfs to be effective.

Of course... I have to confirm everything that I've been hearing on the forums when I get the book (hopefully soon) before I finalize any of these tweeks.


BPorter wrote:

Oh, and it's been more than 7 business days since my subscription order - can I PLEASE GET MY PDF?!??!? This has become an unbearable teaser-thread AND I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!

Thank you. :)

(goes back to updating my Downloads page..)

Same here! I've been waiting for almost 2 weeks and the lack of PDF is driving me crazy! D:


Luthorne wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:
The summoner is still a very solid class , reading the book, it has simply been toned down to expected power levels at certain levels. You can still summon monster SLA all day, eventually cast Gate as usual, your eidolon is still a decent combatant. Now I suppose if your problem is I used to one shot the boss now I have to take 2 rounds...well then can't help you there.
Personally, I always *hated* the SLA and Gate abilities that the summoner had. If I was using them, it meant I wasn't doing what I wanted to be doing: interacting with my eidolon. I kinda wish that those abilities had been nerfed or taken away instead.

Spirit Summoner?

Edit: There's also Blood God Disciple, but, a) racial, b) ehhhhh.

Yea, I am planning to make my next summoner be a spirit summoner. I am just annoyed that if I use the unchained version that I would be giving up the one ability that wasn't nerfed XD


Eltacolibre wrote:
The summoner is still a very solid class , reading the book, it has simply been toned down to expected power levels at certain levels. You can still summon monster SLA all day, eventually cast Gate as usual, your eidolon is still a decent combatant. Now I suppose if your problem is I used to one shot the boss now I have to take 2 rounds...well then can't help you there.

Personally, I always *hated* the SLA and Gate abilities that the summoner had. If I was using them, it meant I wasn't doing what I wanted to be doing: interacting with my eidolon. I kinda wish that those abilities had been nerfed or taken away instead.


Rhedyn wrote:
Korthis wrote:
If I seem to be over reacting it's because summoner was my favorite class and if this version makes it into my group I'll never make one again and that makes me sad.
Why? It's still a very good class.

I'm not so sure about that. When I ran the old summoner in a game with semi-optimized characters I had a lot of trouble staying relevant. The character's spellcasting wasn't good enough to compete with the party wizard, and the eidolon (with tons of buffs) had terrible saves and had trouble hitting the things that the paladin was demolishing. The character didn't really have any one thing that he was good at that other party members couldn't do better.

I'm worried that if I tried running the new summoner in a party simmilar to that one that I would simply feel useless.


More information about the Dragon Empires please! Especially the unique races and gods there, we have like one page of information about some of those.


The simple solution is to give the spell a saving throw DC.


Eltacolibre wrote:
Well, if you want yellow hair, aura, energy shooting and flying, Qinggong Monk/Monk of the Four Winds (Ki-rin aspect for the golden hair etc...) and qiggong monk for the energy shooting. I don't say that it is an effective build...but yeah that's your super saiyan monk package.

I think I am going to have to do this now, just to mess with one of my gaming groups. I won't even tell them that I am doing it, just one day the monk will become a flying super saiyan. Muahaha.


Just curious, was the tail evolution updated so that it isn't like, completely terrible? I often wanted to pick that up on one of my eidolons for flavor, but the idea of spending an evolution point on *just* a situational +2 acrobatics bonus horrified me.


Nuuuu, it is starting to look like I won't see my pdf until next week! Quick, who do I need to bribe to get it today? ;)


Mark Seifter wrote:
Lanitril wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:

I´m totally seeing some of the unchained rogue abilities applying to ninjas (i already let them trade poison use and the other one instead of trap finding and danger sense) and slayers, perhaps even swashbucklers.

Or even be it a consequence of taking weapon finesse^^

By default, since it is a variant class of the original rogue, the ninja does not get the Unchained rogue stuff, but if it serves your game, you could definitely consider adding in whichever ones you like!

Called it! Just uh. Saying...

I've been meaning to look at how I'd Unchain the Ninja, but I figure it would be basically give it the Finesse Training, Debilitating Strike, and maybe Rogue's Edge? A little more unsure on the last one. Give them access to Double Debilitation probably.

I have both a ninja and a rogue in my Jade Regent game. I gave the rogue all the Unchained powers. I gave the ninja nothing. It seems to be doing well so far. Ninja is just pretty strong compared to non-Unchained rogue, so I would strongly recommend not giving it everything if you want to keep the choice between them more competitive. In some games, that might not matter though.

I would only give the ninja the unchained rogue's abilities after taking away the ninja's invisibility. The ninja's other powers actually aren't nearly as powerful as just that one.


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Yay! I've been wondering if that is how mithral was intended to work, glad to hear it :D

Just a request: if you do a FAQ about taking 10, please make it cover taking 10 in general and not just knowledge checks. To this day I constantly get into arguments with people who think you can't take 10 on a climb or disable device check because they say "Failing would cause something bad to happen, so you can't take 10". D:


Arachnofiend wrote:
bigrig107 wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

Wait, the standard action summons are still a thing?

*tosses unchained summoner back in the ban folder*

Why, exactly, do you have a problem with that?

Just curious.

Standard action summons are a pretty large part of why the summoner is busted, IMO. The action economy benefits are too great and allow the summoner to play the full caster and full martial roles with equal aplomb.

I don't allow Sacred Summons either, for the record.

Just require the players to use the Spirit Summoner or Blood God archetypes then. They replace the Summon Monster abilities.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
QuidEst wrote:


Evolution Surge for breath weapon, or two feats on Extra Evolution, or pick an outsider with flight (although you might end up with a wyvern based on the base type).
Given the limited daily uses, I too usually see breath weapon from evolution surge. Just seems tidier that way.

I've always been kind of tempted to make the Breath Weapon evolution have unlimited (1d4 round delay) uses so there's an actual point to building the eidolon with it, lol. It always lags behind their attack damage anyway.


Brotato wrote:
Lemartes wrote:

So two questions.

1. Is the new summoner in everyway weaker? There is nothing that it does better?

2. Forget power...is it less fun? To me less evolution points/fixed points seem less creative and thus less fun.

From what people have so far mentioned, it seems to be a 100% unabashed no holds barred nerf. Whether it was needed or not is debatable (most vocal people on the boards hated it, from the looks of things.)

Actually, it seems that the outsider types come with unique powers. The Agathon gains lay-on-hands for example. Some of them seem pretty nice.


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Ick, I don't want to be a downer but.... don't we already have enough information about the core races? We have some races out there that have like, 2 or 3 pages of background, while the core races have dozens or hundreds of pages already.


I guess the real problem with the old summoner wasn't that it was as powerful as a druid. It was that it was *easy* for it to become powerful, while druids require a considerable amount of system mastery. This caused a lot of problems with more inexperienced gaming groups.

I'm just a bit upset because the eidolon was always the real reason to run a summoner (for me at least). I would gladly give up all spellcasting on the class just to have an eidolon who was on par with a barbarian.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Dr. Johnny Fever wrote:

The eidolon types get some abilities baked in, but the point value of them, combined with the level provided column totals, heck even extra evolution included, results in an eidolon that's pretty much on par with a druid's animal companion, especially after the animals 4th or 7th level advancement.

Now compared to the Druid: it gets 9 levels of spell casting, two strong save columns and wildshape (a very powerful ability).

Had the PU summoner been rewritten as a 9 level caster it might have been balanced against the druid (summoning SLA being IMHO of equal value to wildshape) given the now reduced power level of the eidolon.

The druid's generally considered to be at the far upper end of the power spectrum, though. In a party consisting of, say, Bard, Unchained Summoner, Alchemist & Ninja, would the Summoner seem weak?

Wait, the eidolon is only on par with an animal companion now? That's kind of disappointing.


I do agree that these changes to the eidolon were probably needed, but I don't like the fact that the decreased evolution points basically makes the half-elf favored class bonus where you get bonus evolution points *even better*.

It was already hard enough to justify running any other type of summoner.

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