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Red Dragon

Matrix Dragon's page

1,167 posts. Alias of Matrixryu.


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Confession: I have played both MtG and Yugioh and I liked Yugioh much more. The random nature of drawing lands in MtG always drove me crazy.

Honestly though, the fact that I was only like 12 when I was playing magic and I was in college when playing Yugioh might be coloring my opinions of the games.


I like how this background shows the difference between a psychic and a sorcerer. It seems that, unlike a sorcerer, a pyschic has to spend a lot of time studying and learning in order gain a propper grasp over how to unlock the power.

I wonder if this means there will be a psychic sorcerer bloodline or archetype to represent those that this power comes to naturally?

Edit: I should add that this iconic background is really cool as well ;)


Snowblind wrote:
Wicked Woodpecker of the West wrote:

Wouldn't it be easier to make 4 different vigilante classes rather than one with totally different subclasses...

You would think so, but Paizo has already committed themselves to there be one and only one vigilante class, so we are stuck with it.

Ick. I'm not sure that the Vigilante needs to be divided into 4 classes. However, I hope that they're not completely committed with the route that they are currently following. I don't want to dredge up bad stuff, but I have to point out that the last time Paizo was too committed with their chosen direction on something to make the big changes that the feedback was telling them they needed to make was with Mythic Adventures.


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Actually, the funny thing is that the dual identity thing seems to fool dieties enough that no one can use commune to ask them what the vigilante's true identity is, lol.


It would be super feat intensive and has limited uses per day, but if you variant multiclass or use eldritch heritage for the arcane bloodline you'll gain the ability to use metamagic without increasing your casting time a few times per day. You'll get a few other things out of it too.


I really hope that the final vigilante can fulfil the role of being a 20 level version of Shadowdander, Arcane Trickster, and maybe the Mystic Theurge.

Heck, he's a concept: a really good cover identity for a Vigilante would be to pretend to be only a divine caster by day and an arcane caster at night as a Vigilante! In reality, he uses both magics as necessary.

I also hope that there ends up being archetypes for the following two themes: shapeshifting races and people who gain shapeshifting as vigilantes. A vigilante kitsune or skinwalker's dual identity should protect the magic of his shapeshifting from detecting and dispelling. Plus it should protect his race from being detected in any of his forms.

Other races with minor shapeshifting such as the Tengu could have their powers enhanced so that they can hold their alternate forms for longer periods of time. I can also imagine human vigilantes who become Aasimars or Tieflings as part of their dual identity.


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captain yesterday wrote:
I can't make it more then 5 minutes into the Matrix before I have to shut it off.

Alright, now I *HAVE* to shun you in defense of my namesake D:


SheepishEidolon wrote:

b) The class seems interesting but overloaded. More than 11 pages without images? Phew. I'd cut some content at the four specializations, especially when it duplicates other classes. That way the vigilante core features will be more visible also.

Yea, the Vigilante is in this weird place where it is both overloaded and doesn't have enough options to support what it is trying to accomplish. I'm thinking that the best option would be to make all the Vigilante Talents be universal. Allow all specializations to pick any Vigilante Talent, maybe with just a few restrictions.

There are several advantages to this:

1. You can reduce the total number of Talents and save page space.
2. You don't have to worry about cases where a Talent is thematically appropriate for more than one specialization.
3. You will be able to add more specializations down the road without having to come up with 20 more talents.
4. You can add new talents without having to link them to a single specialization.

At the very least I think a large number of the talents could be moved into a 'universal' pool rather than having to be specialization specific.


thegreenteagamer wrote:

New confession! I feel players are far too entitled, and have little to no respect for the GM mandate. The game is for everyone, yes, but the GM does significantly more work than a player, so I think the right to make and arbitrate the rules is a fair trade off. If you want to play in an Eastern setting when the GM has decided it will be a world based on Mesopotamia, either shut up or start writing your own game, but in either case stop b****ing.

I also do not think character concept is of paramount importance, because there's billions possible, and if the GM shuts yours down or GOD FORBID the rules don't make it exactly as viable as you'd like, you can think of another.

There. Are. Billions. Of. Possibilities. Your snowflake doesn't mean the difference between enjoyment and disappointment unless you let it.

All of my shuns. Take them!

....truth be told I aim for a middle ground on this subject. :)


Meh, I wish the term 'spell-like' was used for things that were actually like spells. A simple blast of energy without fancy hand signs or invocations shouldn't be like a spell.


Shisumo wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
If both Batman and Bruce Wane were always visibly hanging out with the same group of people (aka the other players), but were never seen at the same time then someone would get suspicious. That means that the vigilante's social persona simply can't hang around the rest of the party in most circumstances since it would cause suspicion.
Yeah, it would totally be like if Clark Kent was always seen hanging around with Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen. That would totally give away his secret ID!

Lol! Well, at least Lois Lane and Jimmy aren't always trying to hang around superman, they just need to be saved all the time. It is (hopefully) different with an adventuring party.


Aside from some abilities not being usable when in social mode, there is one other big problem with the whole dual identity thing. Interacting with non-vigilante player characters.

If both Batman and Bruce Wane were always visibly hanging out with the same group of people (aka the other players), but were never seen at the same time then someone would get suspicious. That means that the vigilante's social persona simply can't hang around the rest of the party in most circumstances since it would cause suspicion.

The only way that a vigilante could hang around with a normal party is if he could give all of them their own temporary secret identities.


Luckily, I was able to find the option on IE9 that enables TLS 1.1 and 1.2. I think everything is working again, but the site is still complaining at me and saying that my browser isn't supported, lol.


Hmmm, aside from the dual identities thing, I am trying to figure out why you would want to play this class over any of the classes that it is based on. They have a few nice tricks, but each type of Vigilante seems to be significantly worse than what they are based on.

The problem essentially seems to be that, unless I am mistaken, the entire class is missing an accuracy booster. You know, that scaling +1 to +5 attack bonus that every martial class has regardless of its Hit Dice?

Edit: My recommendation - all vigilantes get a scaling accuracy bonus whenever they are in their vigilante identity, but have their talents apply when they are in their social identity. Basically, they have all their abilities in social mode (using them risks their identity getting found out), but need to be in their vigilante mode/mindset to be fully effective in combat.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I just realized that my favorate part of the Vigilante class is that now I have the Arcane and Divine Rogue variants that I always wanted.


Dobreev wrote:

"Mad Rush (Ex): Whenever the avenger vigilante charges,

he can make a full attack. Whenever he uses this ability, he
takes a –4 penalty to his AC until the start of his next turn
(in addition to the AC penalty for charging). An avenger
vigilante must be at least 12th level to select this talent."

That's insane. This talent will single-handedly kill any other melee-based martial build, doubly so for dual-wielding after level 12.

I'll be the first to say, martial melee characters *all* need easy access to a pounce-type feature to even begin to compete with archers... but if you give it to one while withholding it from others, there's no point in any other melee-character even showing up to the table.

Every time the Vigilante uses this, he will have a -6 penalty to AC. It would turn him into a glass cannon and probably get him killed.

I do have to ask though: Does that -4 penalty from Mad Rush kick in at the start of the charge or once he starts making the full attack? That is very important because I am sure many avengers are going to foolishly charge creatures with reach.


Terminalmancer wrote:
I just realized that all of the strangeness with the social identity starts making sense if your superhero identity is a mechanized suit and your vigilante talents are represented as new tech. Hmm.

I have been having trouble taking the vigilante class seriously ever since I started picturing them as power rangers. ;)


Dragon78 wrote:
Personally I think it's social guise shouldn't get it's "super powers" such as spells, martial powers, or sneak attack like ability.

I like the idea that the social guise has all or most of the abilities, but when he uses them he risks having his cover get blown. It could make him vulnerable to divination and such.


I just hope that the final version of the warlock will be able to use its Concealed Casting ability even in his social guise in the final version. That ability is *made* for secretly casting spells on people when you aren't dressed in your costume.


Alexander Augunas wrote:


— Captain America is an Avenger.
— Batman is a Stalker.
— Doctor Strange is a Warlock (although he'd be a little bit better if there was an option that meshed Warlock with the Occultist Implement system.)
— Shazam is the Zealot.

Batman is totally a Gestalt Avenger/Stalker ;)


ShepherdGunn wrote:
It looks, so far, like the class is trying to be too much of everything all at once. It's the very definition of power creep when it comes to character classes.

It has a lot going on, but the class is limited by what role you choose. It also appears to be designed to be a little worse than the standard version of all of its roles. For example, the "rogue" type vigilantie only gets D4 sneak attack dice when it is flanking.

Saying this class has way too much going on for a standard game is like saying a sorcerer is too much for a standard game because his class has access to several books of spells, while the character really only gets to choose a few spells out of hundreds.

Of course, I could to be totally wrong since I have only skimmed the class so far. It could totally be overpowered ;)


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I approve of the Warlock Vigilante's ability to hide spellcasting. I really like the design of the class so far :D


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Eryx_UK wrote:
We don't need even more base classes!

Lies! *hungrily downloads playtest doc*


Nuuuu, not August! D: *flails*


Personally, I never played Mass Effect 3 because the way 2 was turned into an action game severely disappointed me. It was a good game, but I couldn't help but keep thinking about how much better the original was. Yet another case of a great game being dumbed down.

I haven't supported Bioware for years because of the way they have turned everything into action games. I like action games, but not at the cost of losing my Neverwinter Nights style games! The talk about the bad ending on Mass Effect 3 didn't help matters of course. I might buy it when I see it on sale on steam for $5 though.


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My confession: I outright refuse to play "Core Only" pathfinder, or any other version of it that signifigantly restricts my ability to customize my character. I am fine with a GM asking me to tone down a character's power or when he restricts a few things for setting reasons, but if he starts doing blanket bans of entire books just for the sake of it then I'm not interested in the campaign, lol.

I would also be extremely happy to continue to see paizo add more and more books to pathfinder for as long as my house can contain the books. The more options the better!


Yay! Glad to see some additional Kitsune stuff is coming out and I'm looking forward to trying to use some of the new options on my current one. Not that I wasn't already looking forward to seeing more stuff for my sneakier characters. ;)

It is cool to see the non-core races getting mentioned though. It often seems like a race will only come up in the book that it is introduced in, and then maybe a compilation book, and then never again. XD


Only if it was huge sized with enlarge person cast on it.


After a lot of thought, I think I have a VMC combo that works.

Kitsune Fey Sorcerer + VMC Void Wizard

You essentially gain a familliar at lvl 3, +2 or more to all saves (vs spells and spell-like abilities) and a really nasty debuf ability at 9, and at 15 you can get the Infectious Charms arcane discovery.

Plus the Void school really fits the asian theme of the character. The only issue of course is not being able to go for a spell perfection or eldritch heritage build, but I think it is totally worth it.


BretI wrote:
So, when this boatload of money came in did you make suggestions to the newer players on how to spend it to make their characters stronger? Things like a furious enchantment on the bloodrager's main weapon? The reason I ask is you talked of how they were new characters, and equipment makes a huge difference in power. It can be tricky picking the right equipment.

The furious enchantment as we knew it no longer exists due to recent errata. If anything, I'd be worried that the bloodrager was about to get a lot worse ;)


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Dragon78 wrote:
What are your favorite races Matrix Dragon?

Well, I don't want to derail any more than I already have, but: Skinwalker, Kitsune, Kobold, Undine, Tengu, and Ratfolk.

I guess Kobolds are Inner Sea, but they are usually evil and have a weird/bad stat spread. They are kind of difficult to play in a standard campaign. Hmmm, I wonder how big of a section Kobolds will get in this book.


James Jacobs wrote:
Again: Skinwalkers are a very minor part of Inner Sea Races, and I just want folks to keep that in mind, considering how much focus they've received in the conversation in this thread. Skinwalkers are outliers to the Inner Sea region, after all.

Sorry! It just so happens that all of my favorate races in pathfinder aren't inner sea races, so whenever they do actually come up I can't help but focus on them ;)


True True, but I do have to point out that this would make skinchangers the only 'race' in the game that changes its mental stats via transformation. Normal lycanthropes don't do it (except when they first get their template), other shapechangers don't do it, and polymorph spells do it extremely rarely (aka double failed baleful polymorph save). I can see the explanation for it, it just seems to not mesh with the way the rest of the game works.


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James Jacobs wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:

I really hope that the skinwalkers make it into this book and get their ability scores fixed. Between witchwolves having an int penalty and many skinwalkers gaining mental bonuses instad of physical bonuses which they shapechange they had a serious case of flavor not matching the mechanics.

Heck, if they fixed skinwalkers in this book that would make it a must buy for me.

There'll be a little bit of finessing for some of the skinwalker stat mods, but we're trying hard NOT to go crazy with unnecessary errata.

In the case of the witchwolf, their intelligence penalties are likely to remain. Note that while they have the word "witch" in their name, this isn't meant to imply that lots of them take levels as witches. And they need ONE penalty at least, and frankly... as far as wolves are concerned... Intelligence is the stat that seems to me to be the most logical choice to penalize.

We're very close to pencils down on this, so if someone wants to make an impassioned plea or argument... now is the time!!!

EDIT: At this point, we ARE shifting the werecrocodile-kin mods from +2 Int/–2 Wis to +2 Con/–2 Wis AND the wereboar-kin from +2 Wis/–2 Cha to +2 Str/–2 Cha... but the other ones seem to be pretty spot on as far as we can tell...

Thanks for the info James! I am glad that those updates are making their way in :) (I hope I didn't come off as confrontational)

Just curious, what are your thoughts on the way that many of the skinwalkers only gain their mental bonuses when shapeshifted? For example, Werebearkin have +2 Con/-2 Cha, and gain +2 Wis when they shapeshift. Wouldn't it make more sense thematically for them to gain their physical bonus when shapeshifted? The way it is right now it implies that they are physically bear-like all the time, and have to shapeshift to become bear-like mentally... which feels off.

These temporary mental bonuses also cause issues for spellcasters and other classes with special abilities, since they have to be in their beast form all the time in order to keep their bonus spells per-day and such.


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Is it bad that I am much more excited about this book now that I've seen that the advertisement for it on the back of the Monster Summoner's Handbook has a two-tailed kitsune? It does make sense that kitsune would get mentioned (or at least get a picture) in a Dirty Tactics book, I'm just surprised that Paizo is actually bothering to acknowledge a Dragon Empires race.

I have a feeling that this is Alexander Augunas' doing ;)


Dragon78 wrote:
They had the same problem with the Dhampir heritages.

Yea, I think those got a semi-official errata. Hopefully that will make it into the book.


I really hope that the skinwalkers make it into this book and get their ability scores fixed. Between witchwolves having an int penalty and many skinwalkers gaining mental bonuses instad of physical bonuses which they shapechange they had a serious case of flavor not matching the mechanics.

Heck, if they fixed skinwalkers in this book that would make it a must buy for me.


DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Well, like I'd said earlier, there were several factors involved, from burnout to chronic pain. I used to be a lot more on the ball than I am now, and even the obvious sometimes escapes me. I've been working on something really big for my campaign lately and I really hope to be more on target than I have in a long time.

As someone who has also been a gamer/GM dealing with chronic pain, personally I would suggest taking it slow for a while and focusing on finding ways to eliminate the pain. I don't know what you're dealing with, but if you can get things under control I bet you'll be able to focus on the game more and find things more enjoyable.

Just make sure that you have the right doctors! I suffered for a long time because the first ones that I went to gave me a completely wrong diagnosis.


Agathion eidolons are missing the ability to select a few animal themed evolutions: Mount and Trip. Also, they should be able to select the Serpentine base form since the Draconal Agathion has a serpentine form. Of course, if this form were added then Agathions should also be able to take the following evolutions: Poison and Constrict.


Mark Seifter wrote:
FLite wrote:
Also, can you help us understand why the decision was made to not allow any of the good races to take the mount evolution?
I'm not sure about agathions. The other ones mostly don't have the correct base forms anyway (and the azata serpentine has arms like the lillend, which would make it both a little odd and kind of risque).

Hey Mark, I just wanted to point this out as another weird evolution limitation. I was trying to create a "Celestial Wolf" themed agathion eidolon, but found that for some reason they can't take the trip evolution.


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Every time people talk about eidolon attacks vs a barbarian or paladin's attacks, they never seem to mention how horribly inaccurate the eidolon is. The extra attacks are nice, but they almost never all hit!


kestral287 wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
My suggestion is to have the player use the spirit summoner archetype. It replaces the summon monster abilities with additional spells, hexes, and a minor buff to the eidolon.

Hm. I must be missing something... how is Spirit Summoner buffing the eidolon?

He might like it due to having some more flexibility with spells, but it looks like the Eidolon is strictly worse off due to losing Maker's Call/Transposition.

Don't get me wrong, I like the archetype and it's definitely an option, but... doesn't seem like quite what I'm hunting for.

The eidolon gains the spirit ability that the shaman spirit would gain. For example, a life eidolon gains fast healing 1, a fire eidolon gains immunity to fire, a battle eidolon gains +2 natural armor.

Edit: In addition, the hexes, spells, and spirit abilities that the summoner gets are really good for supporting the eidolon. Depending on what spirit the summoner chooses he could gain Channel Energy, an several round/day attack/damage buff for the party, or the ability to add Fireball to his spells known.

Knowing him, it'd be Fireball.

That said, d20pfsrd must be missing part of that archetype, as it says nothing about the spirit animal's ability.

*rereads it*

Huh, I actually I think I was mistaken. I could have sworn that the eidolon gained the spirit ability, but I can't find it now. Sorry XD

Oh well, he can still get fireball though ;)


kestral287 wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
My suggestion is to have the player use the spirit summoner archetype. It replaces the summon monster abilities with additional spells, hexes, and a minor buff to the eidolon.

Hm. I must be missing something... how is Spirit Summoner buffing the eidolon?

He might like it due to having some more flexibility with spells, but it looks like the Eidolon is strictly worse off due to losing Maker's Call/Transposition.

Don't get me wrong, I like the archetype and it's definitely an option, but... doesn't seem like quite what I'm hunting for.

The eidolon gains the spirit ability that the shaman spirit would gain. For example, a life eidolon gains fast healing 1, a fire eidolon gains immunity to fire, a battle eidolon gains +2 natural armor.

Edit: In addition, the hexes, spells, and spirit abilities that the summoner gets are really good for supporting the eidolon. Depending on what spirit the summoner chooses he could gain Channel Energy, an several round/day attack/damage buff for the party, or the ability to add Fireball to his spells known.


My suggestion is to have the player use the spirit summoner archetype. It replaces the summon monster abilities with additional spells, hexes, and a minor buff to the eidolon.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
FLite wrote:
Also, can you help us understand why the decision was made to not allow any of the good races to take the mount evolution?
I'm not sure about agathions. The other ones mostly don't have the correct base forms anyway (and the azata serpentine has arms like the lillend, which would make it both a little odd and kind of risque).

I'd just like to point out that the bestiary entry for Agathions says the following: "Some are more humanoid in appearance, while others spend their entire existence in a form nearly identical to that of a true animal". Since you can effectively have Agathions that are nearly identical to real world creatures, the mount evolution fits them perfectly.

Sooo, if you guys do end up errating away the mount evolution for devils, we'd appreciate it being added for the Agathions ;)


I do like how these eidolon subtypes make it much easier for the devs to create new types of eidolons. What used to take an entire archetype now just needs a single entry that takes 1/4th of a page.

Though, I guess if they wanted more exotic types of eidolons (such as fey or dragons) to be closer to the real thing then their hit dice would need to be adjusted.


FLite wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
FLite wrote:
Actually, now that I think about it, the biggest problem with summoning a draconic or a lovecraftian, is that one is a dragon, and the other is an abberation. Neither is an outsider, or, for that matter, an extraplanar fey.
Techically, primal dragons are all extraplanar and are valid targets for Gate spells even if they aren't outsiders. Thematically they work just fine as eidolons. Luckily we can kind of mimic them with elemental eidolons, but it isn't a perfect fit.
Why not? They are from the elemental planes, I would think that modeling them with elementals is a very good fit. They even seem to have the right movement types. (except cloud dragon, which has swim, not fly according to d20pfsrd, which I am hoping is an error.) Umbral is the only one that seems to be a problem.

Well, technically the primal dragons don't get all the immunities that elementals get, so they are obviously just stand ins for real dragons. Primal dragons should be getting spell resistance and fear auras instead of immunity to critical hits and such.

Selecting all the powers that a dragon *should* have is extremely expensive, and some of them are prime candidates for abilities that should be part of their eidolon subtype.

Edit: For example, selecting the evolutions Breath Weapon(3/day), Blindsense, Spell Resistance, and Frightful Presense eat up a total of 14(!) evolution points. Unless you are a Half-Elf or something, that eats up all of your evolution points at *level 18*, and you haven't even spent any of them on the other iconic dragon stuff like claws, wings, and a tail slap!

If anything needs its own eidolon type, it is dragons. In fact, the way eidolon types can make it less painful to get these sorts of iconic abilities is one of the things I like the most about the unchained summoner (even if I think they reduced the main evolution pool a bit too much).


FLite wrote:
Actually, now that I think about it, the biggest problem with summoning a draconic or a lovecraftian, is that one is a dragon, and the other is an abberation. Neither is an outsider, or, for that matter, an extraplanar fey.

Techically, primal dragons are all extraplanar and are valid targets for Gate spells even if they aren't outsiders. Thematically they work just fine as eidolons. Luckily we can kind of mimic them with elemental eidolons, but it isn't a perfect fit.


kestral287 wrote:
Can someone post an actual eidolon concept/build that is now impossible, so we have something to work with rather than "Lovecraft thing"?

It is impossible to make a 'beast type' eidolon who can be ridden because agathions can't take the mount evolution. Sure, there are other outsider types that can be quadrupeds, but the agathions are kind of iconic. That you can ride a devil but not THE beast type outsider kind of baffles me. I'm hoping that it is just an error that will be fixed with an errata later.

The best a good aligned character can hope for right now is to ride an elemental or protean, and Lawful Good characters can't get an eidolon with the mount evolution at all.


Hey James!

Question: there are several classes in pathfinder now that can interact with 'spirits'. There's specifically the Shaman, and then there are several archetypes of other classes such as the Spirit Guide Oracle and Spirit Summoner. However, the spirits themselves are not very well defined.

1. In Pathfinder, what exactly is a spirit? The existance of the Kami and the Spirit Summoner suggest that spirits are some type of exotic outsiders, but the fey are also implied to be 'spirits' at times.

2. Are there any bestiary monsters that are 'spirits' aside from the Kami? Perhaps the fey?

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