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Red Dragon

Matrix Dragon's page

1,222 posts. Alias of Matrixryu.


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I would love it if kineticists could get a power that lets them attempt to banish an outsider regardless of its type. This would greatly help pyrokineticists against devils and many other non-fire typed fire immune enemies.


Dragon78 wrote:
Our current campaign is the first time in years that I am not playing as human. It's hard not to when humans have the best options.

This is why my campaigns have houserules to keep people from feeling forced to play a human. It just feels odd that in a world full of fantastical creatures humans are the best (or close to the best) at everything.

I know that Golarion is human centric, but as several other people have said: that doesn't mean I have to like it ;)


45ur4 wrote:
A very simple house rule we use is that Gathering Power for half an hour can be used to refill Internal Buffer

He has to yell like in Dragonball Z the entire time, right? HAAAAAAAAAAAA


QuidEst wrote:
Reckless wrote:
Jinjifra wrote:
Reckless wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
so about that monk archetype...

It adds sneak attack in exchange for a monk's bonus feats, adds some status effects which take place after stunning fist, with a late in the game ki ability to extend these effects, and can use quivering palm to k.o. as well as kill. It includes notes on how to modify Unchained monks with the archetype.

That archetype sounds pretty solid, because the monk feats have always been somewhat lackluster. What kind of sneak attack progression does it get?

1d6 @ 2nd and +1d6/4 levels after. I should note that it has a rider that you can only use it during a flurry of blows, which... }:(

The accomplished sneak attacker feat allows you to add 1d6 to your sneak attack, but no more dice than half your character level(rounding up.)

Oh man, Sandman Bard Arcane Trickster entry five levels early! I love it.

I didn't think of using that to get early Arcane Trickster.... that is amazing.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
More racial options? I'd love to hear more about those as well!

I've been WAITING for people to ask / talk about that section! WAITING!

Someone, DO THE THING! (Just make sure to do it within the standards and guidelines for previewing that Owen set up. ;-P)

I would ask... but I already have my pdf ;)

I have to say that I like the new traits and the oracle curse though!


Imbicatus wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
He will have a half-dozen ways to work around fire immunity and stay useful in combat.
Half dozen eh? Name three.
Sure! I won't pretend that these options are ideal, but at the very least you won't have to sit out a combat whenever a Red Dragon or something comes along.
For what it's worth, Red Dragons have the Fire subtype. You can use draining infusion on them. Devils are the things that you need to revert to non-blasts as fire.

Yep true. Devils I would at least be able to blind and dispel, though I certainly wouldn't bring a pyrokineticist into a campaign that is full of them.


Ravingdork wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
He will have a half-dozen ways to work around fire immunity and stay useful in combat.
Half dozen eh? Name three.

Sure! I won't pretend that these options are ideal, but at the very least you won't have to sit out a combat whenever a Red Dragon or something comes along.

-Flash Infusion's blinding effect works, and since you can't do damage anyway you may as well use the "Cut your damage in half to increase the DC by 2" option.
-Burning Infusion seems to let you set even fire resistant and immune enemies on fire (though they won't take damage). You can use this as a source for smokescreans
-Draining Infusion (for fire subtypes)
-Elemental Grip (for fire subtypes)
-Use Unraveling Infusion to dispel the target's buffs (and maybe fire immunity). Use the "cut your damage in half for a +2 bonus to the roll" trick again.
-When all else fails, you can use spark of life and use the fire elemental to use combat maneuvers on your target. This works against magic immunes as well.


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I have to ask... why do you all care so much about the kineticists single target damage? Not all classes have to be good at that, and this is seriously the thing kineticists are worst at. In my opinion, if you are building your kineticist while only caring about single target damage then you are doing it wrong.

I'm building a pyrokineticist that will be able to do the following by level 11 *at will* without even having to take burn: throw a small fireball that causes all of its targets to save or be blinded, hit enemies with an infinite number of dispel magics (while burning them), create smokescreens, or simply throw 11d6+12 (or so) 10-ft radius blasts at-will. He will have a half-dozen ways to work around fire immunity and stay useful in combat. If this character ever throws a blast only to do damage to a single enemy then he is wasting his round, because there is so much more he could be doing. And this is the least versatile type of kineticist!


I'm building a Kitsune Pyrokineticist.... for a pirate campaign. Sounds like a terrible idea doesn't it? I'm going to just treat him like a power user from the manga One Piece because they are all pirates who lose their powers when they fall into the water.

Statting up the character has been kind of painful since he doesn't get a racial Con bonus, and I dislike the archetype that makes kineticists Charisma based.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:

Pyrokinetecist question: is it possible to use 'sculpt flames' to put a fire out? I noticed that technically the ability doesn't require that the area you move a fire into have any flamable materials. If you move the fire into a non-flamable area, will it simply go out?

Building upon that: if you have a bonfire that takes up a 5-ft square, can you put it out just by using Sculpt Flames to lift the fire into the air above it?

It continues to spread normally, and since fire is a chemical combustion reaction in real world terms but an "element" in fantasy games, presumably it brings at least a thin layer of combustible material with it from our perspective. At that point, if you send it upwards, it presumably falls, but if you move it onto a fire-retardant surface, you may very well be able to kill it. So a fire-bending firefighter squad with Fire Sculptor is best-served by bringing something like a fire retardant tarp and then sculpting all the flames over onto it. This is all sort of just my interpretation of how it would work, so if you have a different vision for your game, go for it!

Thanks for the answer! I'm running a pyrokineticst on a ship based game and I wanted to make sure that I could use sculpt flames to push any fires that I cause into the sea at least XD


Protoman wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:

Just curious, why do people think that Fire is a bad element? It seems to have the highest damage potential (for touch attacks and AOE), the easiest AOE access, and the ability to blind even fire immune enemies on a hit at level 9 (or 8 if you retrain).

The only issue is that it has problems with fire immunity, but that is kind of a campaign specific thing. I have definately seen campaigns where fire immunity was not common.

Resistance/hardness/immunity sucks in the low levels. Those aren't just for fire, loads of the energy blasts would be useless in lots of situations, but I suppose fire gets the shaft more often than most. Playing PFS with my pyro I went through a variety of encounters, and I hated dealing with robots, outsiders with immunity, protection from energy or resist energy spells, golems would theoretically be bad (haven't encountered one yet), and underwater situations. Hardness or resist fire 10 means a pyro at levels 1 or 2 can't contribute unless he's very flexible on his options. Trial By Machines was probably the worst at low levels: robots and undead with fire immunity.

Fan of flames would be pretty sweet. Never got a chance to use it. I'm still debating with my updated level 7 pyro to pick up Expanded Element (fire) in order to get Eruption now rather than later and tough out the fire immune situations. I figure as long as I don't fight nothing but devils or something, I can contribute somehow. Of course, getting air blast and plasma blast would make my life easier, but probably less fun than spamming eruption all the time. DECISIONS!

Yea, admittedly I am lucky that the game that I am making a Pyrokineticist for is going to start at level 5... so I am skipping all the difficult levels and starting right with some anti-fire resistance abilities.


Ryzoken wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Ryzoken wrote:
Philo Pharynx wrote:
They do get the best AoE's
Check out Many Throw...

Many throw only does basic blast damage, requires attack throws, and requires level 16(!).

Meanwhile, a pyrokineticist can do a Blue Flame Blast Eruption to do composite blast damage in a 10 ft radius, or Blue Flame Explosion for a 20 foot radius for still full composite blast damage. Both at earlier levels, and if the enemies make their save then oh well, the pyro still did almost as much damage as a many throw.

Edit: I know pyrokineticists have issues with fire immunity, but they sure do a lot more damage and get much better AOEs if they focus just on their element.

Still a very nice AOE option for Aetheric kineticists, as it means I get all my ranged attack boosts and benefit from party buffs like Bardic Music. It also ignores Evasion, which can be a thing. Oh, and I can crit.

I'm not saying that Fire doesn't get nice blasts, but the other elements do generally get neat options.

Yea, the lack of bardic song and other buffs on the AOEs is annoying. Luckily, I think the Pyrokineticist can keep up a bit by using Fires Fury to get a little extra damage. It does mean less utility though XD


Ryzoken wrote:
Philo Pharynx wrote:
They do get the best AoE's
Check out Many Throw...

Many throw only does basic blast damage, requires attack throws, and requires level 16(!).

Meanwhile, a pyrokineticist can do a Blue Flame Blast Eruption to do composite blast damage in a 10 ft radius, or Blue Flame Explosion for a 20 foot radius for still full composite blast damage. Both at earlier levels, and if the enemies make their save then oh well, the pyro still did almost as much damage as a many throw.

Edit: I know pyrokineticists have issues with fire immunity, but they sure do a lot more damage and get much better AOEs if they focus just on their element.


Just curious, why do people think that Fire is a bad element? It seems to have the highest damage potential (for touch attacks and AOE), the easiest AOE access, and the ability to blind even fire immune enemies on a hit at level 9 (or 8 if you retrain).

The only issue is that it has problems with fire immunity, but that is kind of a campaign specific thing. I have definately seen campaigns where fire immunity was not common.


LazarX wrote:
Roadie wrote:

I'm not sure which is the strongest, but I think fire ends up at the bottom of the heap.

Everybody and their dog has fire resist or fire immunity by mid to high levels, and unlike most of the energy types, there are a lot of high-level monsters that have fire immunity without having the fire subtype. Devils are universally immune to fire, for example, and random demons have immunity to fire on top of their demon traits.

By the time you get to that level, you get the option to laugh at both resistance and immunity.

What ability does that? From what I saw the resistance piercing is really slow (1d6/round and requires a failed save... and the enemy not putting the fire out), and I don't think there is anything for ignoring Immunity.


I've been building a pyrokineticist, and it seems like the character is going to really take off at around level 7. At that level he'll gain both Blue Flame and Eruption, meaning he'll be able to create a 4d6+7 10 ft radius AOE every round (no burn w/move action), or 6d6+7 if he takes 2 burn.

Things get much better at level 8 with Infusion Specialization 2 (1 burn for 8d6+7 AOE!), and he'll also gain Flash Infusion so he can blind people. The best part of Flash Infusion is that you don't have to do any damage for it to work, so it works on enemies that are immune to fire!

Luckily we aren't doing an AP, so I don't think fire resistance and immunity will be a huge issue anyway.


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My quick thought on the vigilante is that I think you should focus on making each type of vigilante more based on some of the existing Prestige Classes in the game (such as arcane trickster, shadowdancer, and master spy) rather than basing them on the Base Classes. We already have 1-20 versions of the base classes, and they can just do a 1 level dip into Vigilante if they really want a secret identity.

Use the vigilante as a chance to give us something new and also continue your trend of giving us 20 level versions of the prestige classes. Heck, the vigilante is giving you a chance to make 20 level versions of THREE different prestige classes!


Just going to point out that if Kineticists could do archer level damage while also forcing the people they hit to save or be *blinded* (or some other exotic debuff) every single round, then they would be kind of overpowered.

Also, I don't think anyone is factoring favored class bonuses into their calculations. Several races can increase their blast damage by 1 every 3 or 4 levels. It adds up after a while.


At higher levels, a pyrokineticist can use Pure Flame Infusion to ignore SR, which would let his attacks affect golems.


Huh, I'm afraid to even mention it, but I'm suprised that Kitsune Enchanters didn't get hit with the "Maximum of +2" nerf that a bunch of other favored class bonuses received.


Hyamda wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:

Just going to point out this: people keep worrying about the kineticist's single target damage. Well, single target damage is what the kineticist is *worst* at.

The kineticist is really a specialist damaging several targets at the same time and doing an additional nasty effect to all of them. A level 10 kineticist could fire his blast at 3 people (4 with haste) and apply a rider effect (such as setting them on fire) at the cost of just a standard and move action. With no burn if my calculations are correct.

Actually, unless you are using flurry of blast(which has the same blast damage as a level 1 kinetecist unless you pour everything on the same target and in that case why are you using that infusion) you can't throw more than a single blast per turn as it is a standard action spell-like ability. Of course the kinetcist has a great ton of option of AoE infusion too use. The difference between those and a wizard? 320feet on average.

Ahh, I missed that it lowers your kineticist level. Yea, the ability is kind of worthless then unless you are just spreading debuffs. It boardered on low damage even with a full kineticist level.

I guess the way to go for pyrokineticists at least is just to spam AOEs all day.

Edit: It seems like the go-to power for heavy damage from a kineticist is still kinetic blade and kinetic whip since they let you do a full-attack. Of course, that puts the kineticist pretty much in melee range.


Just going to point out this: people keep worrying about the kineticist's single target damage. Well, single target damage is what the kineticist is *worst* at.

The kineticist is really a specialist damaging several targets at the same time and doing an additional nasty effect to all of them. A level 10 kineticist could fire his blast at 3 people (4 with haste) and apply a rider effect (such as setting them on fire) at the cost of just a standard and move action. With no burn if my calculations are correct.


I do have to say that I am worried that when I am playing a kineticist, I'm going to keep wondering: "Why am I playing an archer who has to hurt himself to do less damage than a normal archer?".

Of course, the issue is that archers in pathfinder are overpowered, so I'm not sure that we actually want the kineticist to do that much damage. Hopefully all the utility abilities will help with that a bit. Unfortunately, I don't think they are even going to approach what a caster is capable of.


Pyrokinetecist question: is it possible to use 'sculpt flames' to put a fire out? I noticed that technically the ability doesn't require that the area you move a fire into have any flamable materials. If you move the fire into a non-flamable area, will it simply go out?

Building upon that: if you have a bonfire that takes up a 5-ft square, can you put it out just by using Sculpt Flames to lift the fire into the air above it?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Maybe I should just save myself some aggrivation and not buy the hardcover books until the second printing or something?
Plenty of room in the boat for you to join me.

The only thing holding me back is my addiction to the sweet sweet early access subscriber pdfs D:


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What the... this book didn't even need that big of an errata. These changes are so big and so widespread that the book on my bookshelf is now worthless.

Maybe I should just save myself some aggrivation and not buy the hardcover books until the second printing or something?


Milo v3 wrote:
Is it at all possible to have a 20th level kineticist who only has a single element?

Yes it is. You get a small bonus (+1 attack/dam) for being totally focused on a single element, and you also get an extra talent every time you select the same element a second time.

I think the only element that is worth focusing on right now is fire, but I could be wrong.

Edit: though technically, the capstone does turn you into AVATAR, MASTER OF ALL FOUR ELEMENTS.

....well, sorta ;)


Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:

Hey Mark! Just curious, for the Overwhelming Soul archetype, do you think it would be unbalancing to increase the size of the 'internal buffer' that the Overwhelming Soul gets by the character's Charisma Modifier?

I feel like this would make the Overwhelming soul competitive with, but still weaker than, a standard Kineticist. He wouldn't be able to use 'burn' abilities as many times per day, but would have the benefit of always having the full bonus of Overwhelming Power. I'm hesitant to make such a big change to a class that I am not fully familiar with yet though.

I'm going to skip in "line" to this question, since it's an easy answer: It would be very much overpowered if she gained that many extra uses of mental prowess. It would allow the overwhelming soul to use its 'burn' abilities far more times per day than a typical kineticist would except in an emergency, and all without taking any side effect. Think about it; a typical low level kineticist (let's say like 3rd level so that there's actually some overflow going on) is going to take 1 burn for elemental overflow, and then try to take as little more burn as necessary to do what she has to do, maybe 1 or 2 more at most on an average day, for a total of 2-3 (maximum probably between 5 and 8 depending on Con, but hitting maximum would only happen very rarely). For a pyro (or other touch attack build) which would have Cha primary, the proposed change would give the overwhelming soul at least 4 free uses.

Thanks for the quick reply! Hmmm, it is apparent that I need to see more the of kineticist in action before I really understand how the class works out. Unfortunately, the Player that is currently running a playtest kineticist in my campaign is only using burn for Kinetic Healing XD


Hey Mark! Just curious, for the Overwhelming Soul archetype, do you think it would be unbalancing to increase the size of the 'internal buffer' that the Overwhelming Soul gets by the character's Charisma Modifier? I'm also thinking of making this ability available at level 1 instead of level 6 of course.

I feel like this would make the Overwhelming soul competitive with, but still weaker than, a standard Kineticist. He would be able to actually use some 'burn' abilities without having to stand still all the time, but still wouldn't be able to do it as many times per day as a standard Kineticist.

Of course, the issue is that a lot of this is still theory crafting and I am hesitant to make any big changes before seeing a bit more of the class in action XD


Not a huge fan of Cheliax, so my wallet may have some time to recover over the course of the next year xD


Kitsune combat style? It'll be interesting to see what that is :)


I'm really happy that the kineticist gets the cantrips associated with their element for free at level one now. I didn't get to do much playtesting, but I do remember very specifically how annoying it was that my pyrokineticist couldn't create a Light effect, lol.


This is question I have been trying to get FAQed for years.


This book has reminded me of how glad I am that I houseruled that all races can use any core race's favored class bonus, and it is likely I would be able to convince the people who GM for me to do the same. Most of the races that I like playing will probably never get a kineticist FCB.

Half of the kineticist FCBs increase their damage, others increase their internal buffer or give an extra talent.


Thanks for the detailed reply mark! Yea, unfortunately I might have to avoid the Overwhelming Soul archetype. I like the idea of it, and I would love to build exactly the type of character you described. However, the 'burn pool' is smaller than I think could deal with. :)


QuidEst wrote:
Mesmerist gets the Possession line, right?

He gets normal possession, but not greater possession. Greater possession makes your body disappear, while the normal one leaves it behind like magic jar.

The best thing about normal possession though is that there isn't a range limit (as long as you are on the same plane) for your soul to return to your body. It is *much* safter to use than magic jar and essentially replaces it as a spell.

Paizo basically decided that magic jar was annoyingly complex and unwieldy and killed it. There is an entire section in the psychic rules explaining this and how possession is different from mind control.


It is frightening that the normal protections against mind-affecting doesn't seem to help against the possession spell line. Well, Protection From Evil might stop it, but it is basically possible to cast Possession even on monsters that are traditionally immune to mind control.

I have to say though, the Greater Possession spell makes me super excited. I've been wanting to build a possession focused Kitsune character for ages.

This spell is also great for storylines. You could have a villian whose body died ages ago and he has been forced to cast possession on victims in succession to keep his spirit from passing on. The duration is in hours/level after all!

Edit: The additions to the enchantment and necromacy lines of spells are amazing.


Hey Mark, I have to ask you this because I feel like I must be missing something (and I'm not low on sleep this time!). Does the Overwhelming Soul kineticist archetype really not gain any charisma related ability to reduce burn? Because the archetype seems.... really gimped right now.

You get charisma as a primary stat, can't accept burn.... but then you don't seem to gain anything in return except for not having to burn yourself to fill your internal buffer and benefit from elemental overflow. How do you even use abilities that actually require you to accept burn to enhance them, like the various defensive powers?

It just seems like a normal kineticist could get the same effect (mostly not getting burnt), by not burning himself except for elemental overflow and filling internal buffer. Seriously, wouldn't the end result be basically the same? Overwhelming Soul seems to be less of an archetype that grants you abilities than one that just takes abilities away.

Hopefully there is something that I'm missing, because I *really* wanted to try out this archetype with a kitsune kineticist.

EDIT: Actually, this seems even worse than I thought. The Overwhelming Soul doesn't gain all the size bonuses from Elemental Overflow either. At high levels the character will be missing a +6, +4 and +2 to varous stats.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:

I just got my PDF!I really like the final version of the kineticist so far :D

Though, I do have to say that I am surprised that it looks like the final version of Kinetic Healing can still have its burn cost reduced to zero. I *might* have to houserule it so that kineticists can't give out infinite healing to the party D:

Quickly, man! Tell me of the Elemental Ascetic! Is it the martial artsy kineticist element bender Avatar-fans have been waiting for?

Has Kinetic Fist got improved?

The Elemental Ascetic does lose a bunch of stuff (kinetic blast, several infusions, and other things), but gains flurry of blows, burn free Kinetic Fist, Monk AC, and the ability to accept burn to increase his Kinetic Fist dice. It is more of a monk than a bender because of the loss of blasts. I *think* Kinetic Fist itself hasn't changed, unless getting full attacks with it and more dice at high levels is new?
You actually do still have kinetic blast, but you can't use some of the forms, including the "basic" form. Elemental ascetics can still use spray or torrent, for instance.

I need to stop reading new rules text when I am tired XD


Protoman wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:

I just got my PDF!I really like the final version of the kineticist so far :D

Though, I do have to say that I am surprised that it looks like the final version of Kinetic Healing can still have its burn cost reduced to zero. I *might* have to houserule it so that kineticists can't give out infinite healing to the party D:

Quickly, man! Tell me of the Elemental Ascetic! Is it the martial artsy kineticist element bender Avatar-fans have been waiting for?

Has Kinetic Fist got improved?

The Elemental Ascetic does lose a bunch of stuff (kinetic blast, several infusions, and other things), but gains flurry of blows, burn free Kinetic Fist, Monk AC, and the ability to accept burn to increase his Kinetic Fist dice. It is more of a monk than a bender because of the loss of blasts. I *think* Kinetic Fist itself hasn't changed, unless getting full attacks with it and more dice at high levels is new?


Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:

I just got my PDF!I really like the final version of the kineticist so far :D

Though, I do have to say that I am surprised that it looks like the final version of Kinetic Healing can still have its burn cost reduced to zero. I *might* have to houserule it so that kineticists can't give out infinite healing to the party D:

When you said this, I panicked for a moment, since I had remembered looking particularly at that after the last editing pass, but I checked and fortunately, that isn't correct. It clearly states "blast wild talent" in gather power.

Ohhh! I forgot about that detail, thanks! Sorry for causing panic XD


I just got my PDF!I really like the final version of the kineticist so far :D

Though, I do have to say that I am surprised that it looks like the final version of Kinetic Healing can still have its burn cost reduced to zero. I *might* have to houserule it so that kineticists can't give out infinite healing to the party D:


It would not work unfortunately, because multiple polymorph effects do not stack. Both wild shape and anthropomorphic animal are polymorph effects.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
There is one thing I am very curious about: what kind of improvements the Kineticist has gotten? Especially the Pyrokineticist. Please tell me that the Pyrokineticist can use AOEs before level 15 now ;)
How bout level 1? That sounds good to me, at least ;)
SQUEE!!!

Hey, it's partially your fault that pyro wound up in such a good shape with all those darned comprehensive playtests you performed and wrote up. Curse you Wang Fire and your useful feedback!

The iconic pyrokineticist also thanks you. She enjoys level 1 AoE and would like the Pathfinder Society to waive their age requirements so she can help you with all those swarms she's heard about.

Yayyyy! :D

A cool side effect of this is that now it would be easier to run a non-human kineticist because you will have other options if you are dealing with a crowd and don't have precise shot yet. :D


There is one thing I am very curious about: what kind of improvements the Kineticist has gotten? Especially the Pyrokineticist. Please tell me that the Pyrokineticist can use AOEs before level 15 now ;)


This is one of those questions that when I see them, I can't believe that they still have not been answered after the game has been around for so long.


There is possibly a very big problem with running a kitsune vigilante. Do supernatural abilities detect as magical, even though they might not even have a caster level? If they do detect as magical, then any random person who happens to cast detect magic near you might realize that the character is under a polymorph effect. If the vigilante is a known kitsune then anyone who is under a polymorph effect all the time is going to be a suspect.

Plus, at higher levels when tons of things have True Seeing then your identity might get discovered very easily.

Perhaps there should be some sort of additional social guise ability added in to support shapeshifter vigilantes so that their forms are protected from true seeing and detect magic? The current rules text doesn't help much with this. Heck, such an ability could help vigilantes who use hats of disguise and illusions to hide their armor as well.


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I am lucky what I expended most of my "Waiting for the PDF" energy/obsession on Pathfinder Unchained.


Hmmm, this thread has inspired me to add some houserules about evil spells so that people in my games can't pretend that there is nothing actually evil about them.

I might just have ones like infernal healing use addiction mechanics...

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