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Red Dragon

Matrix Dragon's page

1,109 posts. Alias of Matrixryu.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.
You do get a lot more. I think someone upthread pointed out one subtype where, in exchange for the 11 evo points you lose over 20 levels, you get 18 evo points worth evolutions and several additional abilities that eidolons normally can never buy as evos.
Really? Hmmm, I guess it seemed a bit more 'even' to me since I tend to ignore capstone abilities.
Capstones excluded, then. At level 16, a protean eidolon (the kind quoted upthread) is down 9 points in the evo pool, has roughly 18 points of evolutions, and has an additional special ability (amorphous anatomy).

I stand corrected, though I do have to point out that Proteans seem to be on the upper end of abilities gained. Angels at level 16 have roughly 11 evo points worth of stuff, plus immunity to petrification and the truespeech (which is admittedly pretty cool). I'm not counting the resistance evolutions since those are overwritten by the immunities. ;)

When I was worrying over the points lost vs abilities gained thing, I guess I was looking more at the worst cases.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.
You do get a lot more. I think someone upthread pointed out one subtype where, in exchange for the 11 evo points you lose over 20 levels, you get 18 evo points worth evolutions and several additional abilities that eidolons normally can never buy as evos.

Really? Hmmm, I guess it seemed a bit more 'even' to me since I tend to ignore capstone abilities.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.
Unless part of their goal with the new class was an intentional nerf.

It isn't like giving the eidolons 1 or 2 more non-optimal evolutions that no one would ever want to buy (like breath weapons or no breath) would have made that much of a difference.


After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.


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The NPC wrote:

Mr. Mark Seifter,

Are eidolons allowed to use the variant multi class rules? What about a rogue eidolon?

Lol, we can totally create a rogue rogue eidolon now. A rogue eidolon with the rogue VMC.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
London Duke wrote:
I didnt realize it was only a bonus to melee attacks and damage for the barbarian's new rage mechanic. It does seem like the barbarian's damage will take a bit of a nerf due to not being augmented higher for 2handed weapons combat. Or is the bonus increased when using a 2handed weapon?
It isn't, but even at Greater Rage, that's only -2 damage per hit, which is simply not that big a deal.

The real nerf is that barbarians no longer benefit from the courageous weapon enchantment because the bonuses are no longer moral bonuses. Though, the whole furious courageous weapon thing was kind of silly.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:

Alright, finally got the book and I want to just make a few quick comments here.

First, some of the eidolon templates are really good. Elementals are amazing and get a huge number of abilities, Azatas get weapon proficency at level 1, Agathons get a full powered lay-on-hands ability.

*edit*

DELETED. I misread something badly XD

EDIT: No worries! Glad you like the fun and amazing new abilities! New eidolons will probably actually be a little stronger than before if you were going to buy those types of evolutions anyway, and eidolons overall will just be more balanced in their approach, rather than having all the eggs into the offense basket!

Haha, sorry about that. That's what I get for reading too fast XD


Alright, finally got the book and I want to just make a few quick comments here.

First, some of the eidolon templates are really good. Elementals are amazing and get a huge number of abilities, Azatas get weapon proficiency at level 1, Agathons get a full powered lay-on-hands ability. Most eidolon types get resistance 10 to three or four elements by level 5. While not all of them will always be useful in combat, they are all nice flavor wise.

I don't think all of them are fully worth all the evolution points that were lost though, but they always at least come close. Having only one evolution point instead of three at level one is really really harsh though! I think I might be able to work with it though.

*edit*

DELETED. I misread something pretty badly and thought that I found an error XD


Epic Meepo wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
I think I'll also give all summoners a bonus evolution point at every 4th level and then ban the half-elf favored class bonus so people don't feel like they have to be half-elfs to be effective.
Why not just unchain the half-elf favored class bonus by letting any summoner take it, regardless of race?

That is another (simpler) option, but I don't really like the thought of everyone using the same favored class bonus.


Eltacolibre wrote:
Kerney wrote:

The one thing I've noticed about summoner fans is that they've really enjoyed coming up with themes for their Eidolons, rather like Sorcerer players in 3.5 who could come up with really cool themes without the need for built in themes.

One of complaints I've heard from fans of the current summoner and stated is that the eidolon is funneled into being a combat monster as opposed to a mage or skill monkey or something else. True, you can build a skill monkey and the magical abilities exist (they are just really, really horrible), but there are no archetypes that let you start your eidilon with a lower strength, a higher intelligence or charisma or raise them rather than dex/str.

Based off what I've seen, I fear we are going to get 10-15 chassis for combat monsters, cost increases for everything that makes them distinct and fewer evolution points. I think there is going to be less room for cool eidilons, and it becoming much harder to come up with anything other than a combat monster.

My fear, based off what I've heard on these boards(and not seeing it yet I hope I'm wrong) is that the new version of the summoner is nothing BUT a nerf with a straight jacket added for good measure, rather than anything to be excited about or actually play. It seems to be an overreaction to the perceived strength of the class so that it doesn't attract new players and at the same time alienates many of the fans that find the current class attractive.

Based off what I've heard so far, I'll probably not be buying this book.

That's the thing most of the people discussing stuffs right now, don't even have the book. They are just using what somebody else says...You can still different make kinds of eidolon, actually much easier than before. Psychopomp eidolon gets the monster ability spirit touch at 3rd level, which means their natural weapon and anything they wield have ghost touch by default. All elemental eidolons for example are immune to sleep and paralysis from 1st level and eventually...

Huh, it does sound like the abilities gained from the types are better than what I was lead to believe.


What I'll probably do is use the unchained summoner in my games, but fix some of the eidolon's glaring issues that were unaddressed (from what I hear). The main issue is that eidolons have *terrible* saving throws (worse than a rogue!) and on top of that they can't wear a cloak of resistance without leaving the summoner vulnerable.

I wouldn't mind the eidolon getting weakened offensively if it at least wasn't going to get one shot by every spellcaster it runs into anymore.

I think I'll also give all summoners a bonus evolution point at every 4th level and then ban the half-elf favored class bonus so people don't feel like they have to be half-elfs to be effective.

Of course... I have to confirm everything that I've been hearing on the forums when I get the book (hopefully soon) before I finalize any of these tweeks.


BPorter wrote:

Oh, and it's been more than 7 business days since my subscription order - can I PLEASE GET MY PDF?!??!? This has become an unbearable teaser-thread AND I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!

Thank you. :)

(goes back to updating my Downloads page..)

Same here! I've been waiting for almost 2 weeks and the lack of PDF is driving me crazy! D:


Luthorne wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:
The summoner is still a very solid class , reading the book, it has simply been toned down to expected power levels at certain levels. You can still summon monster SLA all day, eventually cast Gate as usual, your eidolon is still a decent combatant. Now I suppose if your problem is I used to one shot the boss now I have to take 2 rounds...well then can't help you there.
Personally, I always *hated* the SLA and Gate abilities that the summoner had. If I was using them, it meant I wasn't doing what I wanted to be doing: interacting with my eidolon. I kinda wish that those abilities had been nerfed or taken away instead.

Spirit Summoner?

Edit: There's also Blood God Disciple, but, a) racial, b) ehhhhh.

Yea, I am planning to make my next summoner be a spirit summoner. I am just annoyed that if I use the unchained version that I would be giving up the one ability that wasn't nerfed XD


Eltacolibre wrote:
The summoner is still a very solid class , reading the book, it has simply been toned down to expected power levels at certain levels. You can still summon monster SLA all day, eventually cast Gate as usual, your eidolon is still a decent combatant. Now I suppose if your problem is I used to one shot the boss now I have to take 2 rounds...well then can't help you there.

Personally, I always *hated* the SLA and Gate abilities that the summoner had. If I was using them, it meant I wasn't doing what I wanted to be doing: interacting with my eidolon. I kinda wish that those abilities had been nerfed or taken away instead.


Rhedyn wrote:
Korthis wrote:
If I seem to be over reacting it's because summoner was my favorite class and if this version makes it into my group I'll never make one again and that makes me sad.
Why? It's still a very good class.

I'm not so sure about that. When I ran the old summoner in a game with semi-optimized characters I had a lot of trouble staying relevant. The character's spellcasting wasn't good enough to compete with the party wizard, and the eidolon (with tons of buffs) had terrible saves and had trouble hitting the things that the paladin was demolishing. The character didn't really have any one thing that he was good at that other party members couldn't do better.

I'm worried that if I tried running the new summoner in a party simmilar to that one that I would simply feel useless.


More information about the Dragon Empires please! Especially the unique races and gods there, we have like one page of information about some of those.


The simple solution is to give the spell a saving throw DC.


Eltacolibre wrote:
Well, if you want yellow hair, aura, energy shooting and flying, Qinggong Monk/Monk of the Four Winds (Ki-rin aspect for the golden hair etc...) and qiggong monk for the energy shooting. I don't say that it is an effective build...but yeah that's your super saiyan monk package.

I think I am going to have to do this now, just to mess with one of my gaming groups. I won't even tell them that I am doing it, just one day the monk will become a flying super saiyan. Muahaha.


Just curious, was the tail evolution updated so that it isn't like, completely terrible? I often wanted to pick that up on one of my eidolons for flavor, but the idea of spending an evolution point on *just* a situational +2 acrobatics bonus horrified me.


Nuuuu, it is starting to look like I won't see my pdf until next week! Quick, who do I need to bribe to get it today? ;)


Mark Seifter wrote:
Lanitril wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:

I´m totally seeing some of the unchained rogue abilities applying to ninjas (i already let them trade poison use and the other one instead of trap finding and danger sense) and slayers, perhaps even swashbucklers.

Or even be it a consequence of taking weapon finesse^^

By default, since it is a variant class of the original rogue, the ninja does not get the Unchained rogue stuff, but if it serves your game, you could definitely consider adding in whichever ones you like!

Called it! Just uh. Saying...

I've been meaning to look at how I'd Unchain the Ninja, but I figure it would be basically give it the Finesse Training, Debilitating Strike, and maybe Rogue's Edge? A little more unsure on the last one. Give them access to Double Debilitation probably.

I have both a ninja and a rogue in my Jade Regent game. I gave the rogue all the Unchained powers. I gave the ninja nothing. It seems to be doing well so far. Ninja is just pretty strong compared to non-Unchained rogue, so I would strongly recommend not giving it everything if you want to keep the choice between them more competitive. In some games, that might not matter though.

I would only give the ninja the unchained rogue's abilities after taking away the ninja's invisibility. The ninja's other powers actually aren't nearly as powerful as just that one.


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Yay! I've been wondering if that is how mithral was intended to work, glad to hear it :D

Just a request: if you do a FAQ about taking 10, please make it cover taking 10 in general and not just knowledge checks. To this day I constantly get into arguments with people who think you can't take 10 on a climb or disable device check because they say "Failing would cause something bad to happen, so you can't take 10". D:


Arachnofiend wrote:
bigrig107 wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

Wait, the standard action summons are still a thing?

*tosses unchained summoner back in the ban folder*

Why, exactly, do you have a problem with that?

Just curious.

Standard action summons are a pretty large part of why the summoner is busted, IMO. The action economy benefits are too great and allow the summoner to play the full caster and full martial roles with equal aplomb.

I don't allow Sacred Summons either, for the record.

Just require the players to use the Spirit Summoner or Blood God archetypes then. They replace the Summon Monster abilities.


Mark Seifter wrote:
QuidEst wrote:


Evolution Surge for breath weapon, or two feats on Extra Evolution, or pick an outsider with flight (although you might end up with a wyvern based on the base type).
Given the limited daily uses, I too usually see breath weapon from evolution surge. Just seems tidier that way.

I've always been kind of tempted to make the Breath Weapon evolution have unlimited (1d4 round delay) uses so there's an actual point to building the eidolon with it, lol. It always lags behind their attack damage anyway.


Brotato wrote:
Lemartes wrote:

So two questions.

1. Is the new summoner in everyway weaker? There is nothing that it does better?

2. Forget power...is it less fun? To me less evolution points/fixed points seem less creative and thus less fun.

From what people have so far mentioned, it seems to be a 100% unabashed no holds barred nerf. Whether it was needed or not is debatable (most vocal people on the boards hated it, from the looks of things.)

Actually, it seems that the outsider types come with unique powers. The Agathon gains lay-on-hands for example. Some of them seem pretty nice.


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Ick, I don't want to be a downer but.... don't we already have enough information about the core races? We have some races out there that have like, 2 or 3 pages of background, while the core races have dozens or hundreds of pages already.


I guess the real problem with the old summoner wasn't that it was as powerful as a druid. It was that it was *easy* for it to become powerful, while druids require a considerable amount of system mastery. This caused a lot of problems with more inexperienced gaming groups.

I'm just a bit upset because the eidolon was always the real reason to run a summoner (for me at least). I would gladly give up all spellcasting on the class just to have an eidolon who was on par with a barbarian.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Dr. Johnny Fever wrote:

The eidolon types get some abilities baked in, but the point value of them, combined with the level provided column totals, heck even extra evolution included, results in an eidolon that's pretty much on par with a druid's animal companion, especially after the animals 4th or 7th level advancement.

Now compared to the Druid: it gets 9 levels of spell casting, two strong save columns and wildshape (a very powerful ability).

Had the PU summoner been rewritten as a 9 level caster it might have been balanced against the druid (summoning SLA being IMHO of equal value to wildshape) given the now reduced power level of the eidolon.

The druid's generally considered to be at the far upper end of the power spectrum, though. In a party consisting of, say, Bard, Unchained Summoner, Alchemist & Ninja, would the Summoner seem weak?

Wait, the eidolon is only on par with an animal companion now? That's kind of disappointing.


I do agree that these changes to the eidolon were probably needed, but I don't like the fact that the decreased evolution points basically makes the half-elf favored class bonus where you get bonus evolution points *even better*.

It was already hard enough to justify running any other type of summoner.


cartmanbeck wrote:

How about I throw you the rules for the Plant Eidolon class feature it gives you? :)

** spoiler omitted **...

Oh no, as soon as I saw Cactus as an option I immediately pictured the cactuar from final fantasy, lol.

In any case, the options look pretty interesting. I wonder how these kinds of archetypes will work with the unchained summoner though? Doesn't that thing require you to select from a specific list out outsider types?


*cries over the fact that he doesn't have access to his pdf yet*

Lol, I have a feeling that the fact half of my subscriptions for last month got delayed into this shipment has put me somewhere near the end of the list.


Andrew Betts wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
I think I am going to houserule that players can give up feats at a faster rate in order to gain abilities from their VMC picks. I really dislike the fact that you don't really gain the the things that make you feel like a member of these classes until like... level 15 or 19 in a lot of cases. The campaign is basically over at that point.
Well really going faster than this you might as well just run a gestalt game.

Not really. Gestalts get a lot more than 5 abilities from their second class, and they don't have to give up feats for it.


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I think I am going to houserule that players can give up feats at a faster rate in order to gain abilities from their VMC picks. I really dislike the fact that you don't really gain the the things that make you feel like a member of these classes until like... level 15 or 19 in a lot of cases. The campaign is basically over at that point.


So, from what I've heard the new version of the summoner class is compatable with existing archetypes. However, how does that work with archetypes that explicitly don't summon standard outsiders? From what I remember, there are summoner types that summon spirits, fey, shadows, animals, genies and manifestations of stories.

None of those really fit very well with the outsider types that the new summoner is bound by. Is there any mention of this in the class? Do they still have to pick an outsider type when using an archetype?


magnuskn wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
You know... I just thought of something. The unchained barbarian no longer gives strength bonuses, right?. That means it is possible to run a Dex based barbarian now! Yessss :D
Urban Barbarian allows this already with what we had until now. :)

Huh. You know, I never really paid attention to that archetype. At least now with this version you can have your damage bonus AND extra hit points ;)


You know... I just thought of something. The unchained barbarian no longer gives strength bonuses, right?. That means it is possible to run a Dex based barbarian now! Yessss :D


Mark Seifter wrote:
Calth wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Calth wrote:

I mostly like the automatic bonus progression, but it has one major flaw that I think makes it completely broken, the interaction between weapon/armor attunement and specialty abilities, unless I am reading it wrong.

** spoiler omitted **

TL,DR: Throw out the paragraph about bought special abilities for magic weapons and armor counting against your attunement pool because its brokenly bad.

You're going to be in far more trouble if you allow bought special abilities to stack for the lower cost, as it vastly improves weapons and armor (remember, buying keen after you have a +5 would normally cost 22,000 but now costs 2,000, for example).

That said, I have another option that is more mathematically elegant than the final solution in the book but was deemed too complex to understand due to involving a two-dimensional table. I am sure that that version with the table is the correct version for you! It completely makes buying special abilities cost the amount that they should, allowing you to go above your affinity level. If someone reminds me after the book is actually out (probably on my AMA thread or something), then in the spirit of tinkering and Unchained, I will provide it in full (I'm sure we would have printed both options anyway if the chart didn't take up so much space; as-is, we had to print the one that was easier to use, given the choice).

Adjusting the prices of the special abilities in my opinion would be a much better solution than making them count against the attunement pool. I mean, this system really punishes player that want more than armor and a single weapon by effectively lowering the max enhancement cap available to them. I appreciate making the second table available, but honestly I would just double the prices in the current cost table and be done with it. This effectively makes them follow the inherent bonus rules, with half the cost being paid by your attunement pool, which is
...

Personally, I don't see much of an issue in simply not limiting people who want to use a second weapon or a shield. Those builds are almost always sub-par anyway, so it isn't like it is going to break anything. Whatever it takes to encourage people to get away from running 2-handed weapon barbarians!


Can'tFindthePath wrote:
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
I have my PDF. I suggest all subscribers check their email.

I would also urge readers of this thread to dial back your expectations for Variant Multiclassing Ultimate Domination combos...

About a third of the progressions are spot on and very attractive, the rest are either confused and spread too thin, or the real stuff comes far too late.

Yea, I have been kind of worried about how many important abilities aren't going to kick in until level 19. At that point they may as well not exist in 95% or more of all campaigns.


Just curious, for the VMC stuff... if a character gains something like a magus arcana or witch hex via the multiclass does the character then qualify for feats like 'Extra Arcana' and 'Extra Hex'?


donato wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:

Just trying to get an idea of just how viable my old eidolon designs and ideas are with the new system.

1. Are there any quadruped base forms, or base forms good for dragon eidolons?

2. Does eidolon pounce still exist? I am assuming it has been greatly limited.

3. Is there an elemental base form? What is that like?

** spoiler omitted **

Hahah, I had a feeling pounce would become a 2 or 3 point evolution. People will still get it though!


donato wrote:
brad2411 wrote:
What does the magus multiclass give?
** spoiler omitted **

Wait a second, if the VCM magus grants magus arcana.... and you get the arcana that gives you a Swashbuckler's Precise Strike....

Most roundabout way of getting Precise Strike ever. I wonder what the character's effective magus/swashbuckler level for this thing would be?


Just trying to get an idea of just how viable my old eidolon designs and ideas are with the new system. I really appreciate that you are giving us some spoilers btw!

1. Are there any quadruped base forms, or base forms good for dragon eidolons?

2. Does eidolon pounce still exist? I am assuming it has been greatly limited.

3. Is there an elemental base form? What is that like?


brad2411 wrote:
What does the magus multiclass give?

If the magus multiclass gives spellstrike, spell combat, and the ability to cast while wearing armor it will be kind of amazing...

Hey I can dream big!


Hmmm, just a thought. I wonder if since the cleric VMC gets spontaneous casting that the oracle version would add cure spells to a character's spells known list? That would be kind of neat.


Does the varient multiclass sorcerer grant you the bloodline arcana? If it doesn't I'm going to be hard pressed to figure out a reason why you would go this route rather than just going with the eldritch heritage feat chain. Hmmm.

Edit: Just curious, what do VMC Oracles and Rogues get?


Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

That being said, using Shift to swift action teleport is pretty damn sweet on its own. You're getting 25 feet of movement as a swift action at tenth level, which in many cases is going to be as good as pounce.

Also worth mentioning that DDoor has no restrictions on having to teleport to a safe location. There's no reason why you can't Shift into the air, grab that flying wizard and seismic toss a m+$!%!@$+#!~.

That's true, if shift is a swift action then you don't really even need dimensional dervish.

...I think I need to make a teleporting ninja/unchained rogue now.

Yup, save yourself a feat and just grab Dimensional Agility to allow actions after using shift, and you should be set!

Ick, that's right. And since Dimensional Ability requires the ability to cast dimension door, techically people won't be able to qualify for it anyway....

Noooooo, my dreams of teleporting ninjas have been squashed! D:

Then again this may explain why they only ever seem to do a good job of using their quick movement to run away, and never to attack, lol.


Arachnofiend wrote:

That being said, using Shift to swift action teleport is pretty damn sweet on its own. You're getting 25 feet of movement as a swift action at tenth level, which in many cases is going to be as good as pounce.

Also worth mentioning that DDoor has no restrictions on having to teleport to a safe location. There's no reason why you can't Shift into the air, grab that flying wizard and seismic toss a m+$!%!@$+#!~.

That's true, if shift is a swift action then you don't really even need dimensional dervish.

...I think I need to make a teleporting ninja/unchained rogue now.


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Interesting fact: The dimensional feat line is so feat intensive that only a fighter would be able to afford to get that, be skiled with a weapon, AND varient multiclass before something like level 15.


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brad2411 wrote:
Fighter multi class to get the conjuration teleportation school of magic and then all the dimensional feats. Or a brawler with that nice.

That is actually kind of frightening. I think we can finally have anime style teleport-step fights.


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Hey James! I'm in a campaign right now where I've been trying to introduce Daikitsu as a more active deity. However, I've been having some problems coming up with ideas for a few reasons and was wondering what your thoughts on the subject were.

1. Diakitsu seems to be mostly a Diety for farmers, family, and craftsman. Nature as well. In what circumstances would she aid or be interested in an adventuring party? Maybe when they are protecting a village or something?

2. Daikitsu is a Kitsune, and her primary worshipers are kitsune. However, she seems to have very little in common with them aside from the whole 'mother of the race' thing. Sure, kitsune are loyal and have interests in craftsmanship, but they seem to primarily be known as enchanters and tricksters. Why do they seem so different from Daikitsu?

I know that Daikitsu is essentially a re-flavored version of the Japanese god Inari and that is why she has her domains, but I am just trying to figure out why she seems so different from her race in the context of Golarion and what it means for them.

3. If Daikitsu worship were to spread into the Inner Sea region, do you think it would change in any way or run into any barriers? I know that Gozrah is very similar, but s/he seems to have little direct interest in *people* the way Daikitsu does, so it seems like farmers and communities would find Daikitsu to be an easier god to relate to.

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