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And what good do you see coming from those hexes at any level?
What do you actually expect to gain from burning all your feats/hexes in this manner?
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Eh it's worse then that. It only protects you from AoO's from the target of the spring attack. Everyone else still gets their free whack at you if you provoke.
Artful Dodger wrote:
Since Strong Jaw specifies it only works on natural attacks (which a unarmed strike is NOT) then you can remove those size increases as well.It's also flagged as a size increase so doesn't stack either.
It's not the swarm type that removes their Int, it's the vermin type that does it.
Vermin Traits wrote:
As a normal Worm that walks it has a defensive ability referred to as it's hive mind which lets it think and continue to function as an individual. When it discorporates it loses all of it's defensive abilities which includes it's hive mind ability so it goes back to the default for it's type which is Vermin (it specifically doesn't get the swarm type, it stays vermin) and all vermin have the mindless trait.
A WTW who discorporates loses it's Int score and personality and becomes a non-threat.
For what you are shooting for, if you have the cash then the Homonculus is the best option.
Throw on top of that more skills/feats/attributes then any other familiar in the game and you can shape it to look like whatever you want. It's just made of win if you have the cash for it.
Yes Kasatha have multiple arms and can make an off-hand attack with any of them. What t doesn't say is that it can make an off hand attack with ALL of them.They are a PC race so are expected to follow the same design I quoted above, 1 mainhand attack + 1 off hand attack (2 if they invest in improved TWF).
The advantage they get is they can wield multiple items at the same time and use them as they wish. 3 swords at once (cold iron, silver, adamantine) while using a shield/wand or any combination like that.
They still follow the TWF rules on how many attacks they get do Bab limit +1 (or 2 if they have Imp TWF).
He is assuming that because that's EXACTLY how they want the rules to be presented. PC's will ALWAYS be assumed to have 1 mainhand attack + 1 off hand attack, they will never change that. They clarified that with the Alchemist extra hand/tentacle discussion. PC attacks per round are based off BaB, X number of main hand attacks + 1-2 from TWF.
If you want to get an attack per limb then you have to use the natural attack rules and that has it's own set of limitations.
Yet they do work the same and the rules are the same, this isn't 4e this is pathfinder. Mulitarmed creatures don't have an explicit rule, even the 4 armed PC race has multiple offhands with no rules except having more arms. I understand what y'all are saying but your view is no more supported than mine, saying but you can't see the rule and NPCs are different doesn't cut it. This game is an explicit rules based game, unquantified rules have no place here.
Where in ANY of the rules are you seeing anything saying they work the same. EVERYTHING quoted in this thread so far has shown that they DON'T work the same. Even the 4 armed races added in the race guide still fall under these same rules. 1 extra off hand attack, this is the intention and design of the game. The rules text, the dev quotes and the examples provided in all the published material all shows you that.
Well the DEVS have already spoken up on this issue years ago and set down they why's and hows of whether extra limbs actually give you extra attacks.
I bolded the important sentence, unarmed attacks are limited to your BaB number of attacks not your available number of limbs.
The iterative rules are an abstraction of combat, whether you have 2 or 2000 limbs you only get to make a number of actual attacks a round equal to whatever your BaB grants you UNLESS there's something that specifically says you can make more.
As for existing creatures out there with more than 2 arms wielding weapons making those attacks is very, very simple. THEY are not designed under the core assumption that they are humanoids with 2 arms. They don't follow this design philosophy so they get to break this rule.
Your mistake is trying to look at monsters and PC's as being the same thing following the same rules. They don't, they never have and that's a good thing. Trying to shoe horn critters and players into the same limitations limits the opponents too much and/or overpowers the players too much. Keep them separated and the game works better.
Now I truly think the Worm that Walks template is probably the best ever choice for an arcane caster it does have a huge issue with it's discorporate power.
There are several major problems with the power as written.
Discorporate (Su): A worm that walks can collapse into a shapeless swarm of worms as a free action. All held, worn, and carried items fall and its Strength score drops to 1. The worm that walks functions as a true swarm while discorporated, with a reach of 0 feet (its space remains unchanged). While discorporated, the worm that walks loses all of its defensive abilities and gains all of the standard swarm traits. It loses its slam attacks and all special abilities and special attacks, but can make a swarm attack that deals damage equal to its engulf attack. A worm that walks can reform into its true form (including equipping all gear in reach) as a full-round action as long as it has at least 1 hit point.
While discorporated, the worm that walks loses all of its defensive abilities and gains all of the standard swarm traits.
A. This means as soon as it is pushed into this form it's Intelligence drops to - (not 0 but an actual dash since it no longer has that attribute) so it can never choose to re-incorporate itself.
B. On top of that a WTW who discorporate lose all their Defensive abilities so the fast healing goes away preventing it from healing itself in any reasonable amount of time as well as increasing all the damage it takes (no DR or immunities from the template).
C. The Diehard feat literally does NOTHING for the WTW. Per the ability score rules "Mindless creatures have no feats or skills". This is a wasted feat and even if it were somehow allowed to work then you have to deal with:
Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up
so it's no longer a swarm so it loses what little control or survivability it had.Now being a comatose, non-swarm of worms who can never choose to reform and the character is pretty much worse then dead.
Overall the Discorporate ability is a one way ticket to oblivion and should never be used. EVER.
This feat is the most poorly written thing I've seen come out of pathfinder in a long time (including original prone shooter).
The issue is not the crit fishing or the DR abuse. The real issue is this line right here:
For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any).
Parse that as it's written (not as it's intended) and watch the damage sky-rocket.Assuming a simple 4 attacks a round with a D6+3 attack and all of them hit.
1st attack: 1D6+3 for 6 damage avg.
Total damage = 84 damage
Remember the sentence specifically states For each roll that is a hit you add the damage dealt from previous rolls.
Stupid, broken and so badly written I can't believe it made it into print.
Aww, I was saving that point for when the conversation got heated and I could point to it as part of my over-arching reasoning. You stole my thunder.
Ha, but you're right and glad someone else actually looked for the rules as written.
No, It's just like using a reach weapon against something with cover where it says use the rules for ranged attacks. It doesn't stop the reach weapon from actually being a melee weapon it just says use this part of the rules for resolution instead of the normal rules.
Why would you think that? An extract is not a potion, it's used as one but is explicitly called out as an extract not a potion or alcohol and Raging drunk only works with those 2 choices.
A. The text of both the spell and the faq on it explicitly give examples of convincing you're new friend to attack a target you choose that most things usually avoid attacking. If getting your new friend to attack something is making them an automaton then there it is in black and white in the FAQ you posted, the text of the spell and the magic chapter.
B. Fine, is the bad guy a horse? If not then it falls under the "something exotic" rule and requires GM permission to do.
C. Yes it says "would not usually do" and most Tigers would not usually eat people especially their handlers but it does happen (ask Sigfried and Roy about that), surprisingly more often then you'd think.
A nonsentient companion (one with animal-level intelligence) is loyal to you in the way a well-trained dog is
. Period. Heck even the official write ups of every iconic example in the game with an AC shows the bond between them is one of Dominance/submission (Lini), mutual need (Andowyn) or unmentioned follower (Harsk). There is literally nothing in any of the Pathfinder resources showing that a hunters bond is in any way one of friendship or love or any kind of caring relationship.
D. And yet that is exactly how Charisma has been used, both examples I gave were 100% charisma without the benefit of magic. Now add magic to it and imagine how much further those users would have pushed they're target.
E. Magic beats EX abilities in the sense that EX can sometimes defy the laws of physics while Magic bends those laws over and spanks them like a 5 year old who gets caught stealing candy. My statement was too vague and wasn't meant as such.
F. AC's are weaker as a rule and I quoted you the rule straight from the Campaign book. They are non moral creatures who are only as loyal to their handlers as any trained creature you go to the store and buy.
A. The charm person spell doesn't address the core values question at all, it has nothing to do with it. It simply makes the target your friend and explicitly gives you the ability to make it do something it normally wouldn't (like the examples given Share supplies, tell you secrets, Fight your enemies and do back breaking physical labor) with the only limitation being if it's something it doesn't want to do you need to succeed on an opposed charisma check in a language/communication method it can understand. That's it, that's all the limitation built into spell by RAW. RAI may be different but this is society play where RAW is LAW.
Well first there is nothing written in the spell saying you can't convince the target to kill their best friend, it simply says you have to succeed on an opposed charisma check to get it to do something it doesn't want to. Like convincing a target to cheat on their spouse, or feed poison kool-aid to their children (Jim Jones reference) all of these are simply charisma checks, difficult ones but still basic checks. As for the "against their nature" that's a specific written limitation of the Dominate spell by a Dev not a general rule for the Enchantment School.
Finally EX abilities by their nature are non-magical:
Extraordinary Abilities wrote:
Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics.
Nature Bond doesn't give you any kind of magical control over this animal, it's still a relatively normal Wild Animal ruled by it's instincts and normal nature. Heck the went out of their way to define this in the Ultimate Campaign book:
Ultimate Campaign, pg 140 wrote:
AC's are even weaker to enchantment magic then the most basic fighter in the game since they are explicitly defined as amoral nature and can be convinced to do ANYTHING you want with a successful handle animal check or failed will save.Let me guess, you probably don't allow your bad guys do handle animal to control your PC's animal companions either? hint, that's legal too.
You're adding a bunch of conditions and expectations that are written nowhere in the spell or nature bond ability.
You might want to read the Charm Monster spell (my bad on that, forgot it was charm monster).
charm monster wrote:
The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do.
Make that Charisma check and you can make that pet tiger do anything you want as long as you can actually talk it into it. Remember there is no magical connection between the tiger and it's owner (Nature Bond is an EX ability so spells trump it) and a decent story for an int 2-3 critter is your hungry and that guy there is easy meat AND he keeps making you fight things that hurt you.
Succubus Charisma check Charisma: 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (6) + 8 = 14
Tiger eats whoever the succubus says to eat.
Ok, just remember when you do that your AC is now a valid target for the telepathy ability of outsiders. When that succubus hits your AC with dominate monster and telepathically tells it to kill you and your party members (with an opposed charisma check the AC cannot possibly succeed at) it's your fault.spoken from experience watching a pouncing tiger turn and murderize his party and a vital striking wolf one shot his Ranger boss.
Those things are nasty.
I personally would prefer to rule they don't stack since it's one of the things that reins in the craziness of the build, I'm just pointing out the RAW. As for the DEV quote it's not in the guide it's in the thread discussing it.
Back to your original question it comes down to the poorly written nature of the White Hair ability. It states you "gain the ability to use her hair as a weapon". The hair is now treated as a weapon not as a spell or supernatural ability so the FAQ entry you quoted doesn't apply anymore.
Then you go to the Prehensile hair ability which specifies that "The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb".
Prehensile hair modifies how you can use the weapon that WHW gives you reducing it's base strength (lower damage die) but giving you more control and flexibility with it. So since it's the same weapon (white hair) it does everything it normally does unless the specific text of the prehensile feat overrules it, ie. smaller damage die, Int to hit and restriction on which hair can be used but since it doesn't specifically take away the grab related stuff or state anything the hair can previously do is removed you get to keep it all.
The usual answer for constructs at low levels tends to be really, really simple, Barbarian with a 2-hd weapon. If you don't have one of those then give the fighter a 2hder, it'll just take an additional round or 2.
Hardness is like DR, just push through it and you'll eventually win it just might take a little longer. As long as someone in your party can consistently do 10+ pts of damage a round your party will inevitably win though you may have to burn a few charges from your CLW wand mid-fight if the construct can hit decently hard it's not that big a deal.
Mike Franke wrote:
Well first you have to remember this basic rule.Alchemist ARE NOT spellcasters, none of those rules apply to them. They don't cast spells so they can't cast defensively. They are simply using a self-powered magical item that they create themselves. It's one of the basic confusions of the class.
Angry Wiggles wrote:
Close but not quite since you've missed a few of the DEV errata's and clarifications for these abilities.
First remember the default rule on all natural attacks that that the same limb can only be used once per round to attack with normally. Hair is a single natural weapon so you won't get 2 different attacks you'll only get one but you can use it more then once for AoO's.
Second, there is a Dev quote linked in my original build specifically referencing Prehensile hair as a valid "hand" for spellcombat purposes.
Overall the main point of the build is written around the WHW special hair ability with the prehensile hex as a backup for it and can technically be ignored. It's just there to extend the reach of the character and increase it's damage.
Also (and this will vary based on your GM) both abilities specifically state they modify how you use your existing hair not that it grants you a new ability.
white hair wrote:
At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon.
Prehensile Hair Hex wrote:
The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb
By RAW prehensile hair simply modifies the existing White Hair (since White Hair affects all the characters hair and is always own) by increasing it's length and letting it function like a hand.
Cheap, Cheesy and OP but legal by RAW if not RAI. But since I've always said this build is not something that should be used in actual game play that's pretty much par for the course.
@Elbedor, I still highly recommend you don't do it. It's really not a fun build to play for you, your GM or your fellow players.
Just trying to get an idea how long a level takes to run, can you do it in one sitting 4-5 hours? or does it take 2 or more?
Well I've run the first 4 levels of the dungeon so far and each one was completed in the normal 5 hour slot. The higher levels I'm still getting an estimate on but should be doable if everyone stays on point.
He doesn't have to scry on any of the PC's so they won't get saves vs it. Simply have him scry on one of his animated chairs making it a pretty much automatic success. As for the syringes those are mostly there to interfere and mangle anyone who tries to get close to him.
Don't forget you can recharge the Staff by burning a few extracts of enlarge person. By the time an alchemist can afford this item the will have 1st level slots and Boro Beads to burn to make sure they can always use this power whenever they want.
As for the ring, theres nothing stating you lose the ability to use spell trigger/completion items when polymorphed either. The only restrictions are
While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.
Being able to speak, move and manipulate items is all that's called for to cast a spell no matter the form. A Sorceror with this ring can cast any spell they want with at most a +1 level adjustment (if the spell had a somatic component) by taking Still spell or using any of the free ways of getting a metamagic feat.
Finally, Contingent Action. Remember all with the rules for charge since the recipient of this spell is restricted to a standard action by the rules of the spell instead of a Full action they CAN charge while under the effects of this spell.
Just looking over the ACG and putting together a list of items or spells to be on the lookout for from the ACG. Hoping to get a gist of what to expect once these things start showing up in the game.
First thing that I expect to be an issue is the Ring of Elequence.
Next is the Monstrification Staff is going to be on every melee alchemists list as soon as possible. 12,000GP seems like a lot but having access to a pretty much at-will Monstrous Physique spell at will with all the goodies that brings is pretty brutal. (There are enough forms out there with massive natural attacks and movements to make this an uber item).
As for Spells the Contingent action spells are going to be a problem. I fully expect every party melee'er to run around with half a dozen scrolls of Contingent action of charge X (where x is whatever name/creature type they expect to encounter). Since the target is limited to a standard action that falls under charge exception rule so it should work, otherwise it'll be a simple move.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Relatively free Pounce for everyone now at 150GP a pop but technically superior then normal pounce since it gives you an extra attack since you charge and attack off turn then full attack when your turn starts.
These are just the ones that jump out at me but I'm sure more of them are out there.
Everything we are reading about this book is ridiculous. I'm just going to have to ban the whole book at this point.
Simon Legrande wrote:
Cancel my subscription to Paizo products and operate under the belief that they stopped publishing new material after December 2013.It's been a bad year for balance and this is just really the eject button for purchases.
Nope, you are looking for loopholes that the devs hae already closed. Here's a Dev posting on exactly how this works focused on the hair power:
The normal rule for secondary attacks is if the attack is your only type of attack in the round, it's treated as a primary attack.[/quote wrote:
Doesn't matter if it's a separate action any time you use a natural attack in the same round as a manufactured weapon it becomes a secondary attack with all those penalties.
Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
Also the only restriction on weapons while grappling is it can't require 2 hands to use. ANY 1 handed weapon can be used to full attack while grappling and there's nothing preventing a target from dropping their 2hder and pulling a 1hder out and full attacking with that.
Iron Giant wrote:
Dilution will allow you to get around the 1 per day kinda (it lets you make 2 of the same potion once per day) but unfortunately the familiar is a no-go option due to the exact same faq entry.
No. When creating potions, the crafter must prepare and expend the spell used by the potion as part of its creation
since the familiar is the crafter it would need to prepare and expend the spell but since the familiar can't prepare the spell/extract it fails to fulfil the requirements of the FAQ.
And before you bring up the familiar spell metamagic, remember alchemists aren't spellcasters so don't qualify to take the feat.
You really need to read the magic item creation rules. It doesn't matter how long it takes, you are limited to 1 per day.
magic item creation rules, pg. 549 wrote:
Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day.
Don't forget you are playing a witch and Greater Grapple has a Bab +6 requirement. That means you can't do this until 13th level (11th if you only do the 2 level dip and the rest rogue) and since you are a poor BAB class your CMB is going to be low and your AC/HP's even lower.
Until you actually Pin the target they will be tearing you apart with their full attacks (or easily breaking your grapple since you only use your Int bonus as Str when making the initiate/maintain action. When they try to break your grapple it goes against your normal CMD (which is going to be a much easier check).
And Finally, ANY time you use a natural attack at the same time you use an iterative attack your hair becomes a secondary attack with all the penalties associated with it.
Daniel Thrace wrote:
and don't forget you can only brew up to ONE potion per day. No more than that, ever.
David Haller wrote:
Yeah, she's a monster to fight but she's not the worst thing in there, that honor goes to the ghost you meet early.28D6 20 ft' range touch attacks that move you up to a thousand feet from your healer. Add on top of that a flat 50% miss chance to hit him and if you DO manage to connect he only takes 50% of that damage. Plus perfect flight and can walk through walls, ugh.
THAT is a nasty fight.
Wildly enough this does seem like a valid metric.If as a player "you don't want me to build critters to do this to you then don't build pc's that do it to me" seems a great basis for a co-op game.
Your interpretation is incorrect. Per the FAQ update:
Yes, brew potion is now a sub-optimal crafting feat and not really worth investing in.
Yup, Cleave and it's ilk would become significantly more useful. We'd also get away from the hyper-inflation of opponent HP's necessary to make things survive the 2-300pt burst damage that the game has grown into these days.Best thing is it would put casters and martials back to the same action efficiency. Move and cast vs. move and attack, simple and elegant so of course it's never going to happen.
A). Mirror Image isn't that hard to defeat, just close your eyes. Moves it back to a 50/50 chance to succeed and completely ignores the mirror image spell.B. Feint DOES NOT BEING IN REQUIRE MELEE RANGE, I have no idea where this assumption keeps coming from.
C). I've already shown the build on this mook and it's about as legal as can be. It's everyone else who is making assumptions on what the Kensai has. We've also already shown how poor a defense Sense Motive actually is for Kensai against a feint build.
Diego Rossi wrote:
The one change I so wished had actually made it into the game was the idea to remove iterative attacks. Instead of making multiple attacks per round when your BaB hit the right level you would just add your weapon dice to the roll again.1st level your long sword did 1D8+x but at 6th it would do 2D8+x. Made it SOOOO much easier to balance around and made vital strike, charge, power attack, etc. so much more valuable.
Plus balancing the HP's around that kind of damage output actually made evocation spells useful without needing massive amounts of feats, class dips.
Mook disarms kensai and then runs away. Chase him.
Well you obviously haven't read this thread.Whoever said get close and feint? You feint from 30+ feet away and then do a move action (depends on what all is going on).
Magus can't attack but can cast mirror image and move in preparing to attack putting him in melee range.
Bad guys turn he attempts to disarm IF he has improved disarm he makes a CM check vs 10 + Kensais BAB + 0 (no dex allowed) + 0 (tanked str on this dex based build). Kensai is disarmed and since he had no weapons in hand (but did have imroved unarmed strike) he is now wielding the kensai's weapon.
(If we don't have improved disarm then he 5' back and uses a reach weapon, no AoO, same result except weapon is now on the ground behind the bad guy)
@ARTANTHOS, I specifically did not say pick up, I said manipulate. If you are not Wielding, Holding or retrieving the object from storage then you are Manipulating it.
A weapon dangling from a 2 foot cord is not being carried in easy reach. Pulling that back in provokes an attack.
As for accusing me of using multiple henchmen I call foul on that. I have used exactly 1 npc to shut down this kensai, yes he's a mook and built exactly like a mook (I even posted his first level abilities). YOU are the one pulling things out of the air and making assumptions not in evidence. Try again.
Their glaring weakness is that their defense AND offense can be taken from them extremely easy. You can feint, or turn off the lights or grease them or do anything that costs them their Dex bonus. THAT guts their passive defensive abilities and has always been the flaw with Dex builds, the Kensai is just double penalized since it costs him his Int bonus as well. Add to that he is restricted from having any armor as a backup and it's much more dangerous. Also as 3/4 BAB class with (usually) a low strnegth score it makes him particularly vulnerable to Combat Maneuvers. Though under-utilized they are a frighteningly effective tactic as the many Tetori Monks and Lore Warden Fighters have shown.Covering all the ways that their dex can be taken from them costs significant resources which no longer needing to purchase actual armor doesn't quite cover.
The second issue is their dependence on a single weapon. ALL of their offensive class abilities rely on 1 singular weapon, once that is taken away 95% of their archetype abilities go with it. A backup weapon can help protect against this but that simply raises the cost of playing this class even higher.
As for the 1st vs. 7th level if you're not going to address the actual comment and choose to be flippant instead that's your choice, doesn't take away the truth of it.
when the weapon cord was a swift action you could argue that you could recover it without provoking but once it was moved to a move action you know look at the move action faq now.Under the Move action faq
You are now manipulating an object that you aren't holding or wielding so by this FAQ you now provoke an AoO getting that weapon back.
As for forgoing damage, that's kind of the point of neutralizing a target. the only damage that matters is the last point, before that damage does nothing. I'd much rather a henchmen of mine spend his actions keeping the crit machine caster locked down then wail ineffectually for their measly 1D6+x.
It actually is a restriction and a benefit. Share spells is there so a caster can use their personal range spells to benefit their bonded companion. It's not there to bypass the built in restrictions of every spell in the game.Expeditious retreat, Alter Self & Fire Shield are self only spells but share spells lets your companion benefit from them too. That's the purpose of the share spells ability not what you are trying to do.
edit: share Spells doesn't mean that you can only cast those spells on your companion, it's there so you can cast all your normal buff spells on your companion (like any other creature) AND also put your self buff spells on them too.
He's worse off because he is now provoking an AoO and depending on what the opponent can do with that AoO against an unarmed opponent.And as I said this is not a tactic that destroys a Kensai, I said it neutralizes him. Until he gets his chosen weapon back he drops to being an inferior wizard with a much weaker spell list.
@thaago, We aren't talking about a magus here, we're talking about a Kensai. That archetype makes enough significant changes to the base class that it really is a different beast.
This is all I'm saying to everyone thinking about blaying a Kensai. It has great offensive powers and deceptively great defensive abilities but it has a weakness. A great big glaring weakness that it will require a major expenditure in resources to overcome.