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Father Jackal

Mathwei ap Niall's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Modules Subscriber. FullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 2,377 posts (2,387 including aliases). 3 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 5 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Ross Byers wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Intangible doesn't mean it can't attack, it doesn't actually mean ANYTHING since it's not a game term. If they had said incorporeal it would make a difference but since there is no Intangible condition it has no effect.

It isn't a game term. It's a word. In English. It means 'cannot be touched' or 'insubstantial'.

Right, just like incorporeal but those critters still get to do damage.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Tels wrote:

When you succeed on a will save against the image, you know it's not there and is not real.

So if objects are affected as if they succeeded on their will save, then objects are affected as if it wasn't there.

Are you reading this at all or what?

That actually isn't true. All disbelieving does is reveals that this is an illusion, it doesn't do anything else.

Quote:
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

Heck, unless it's a figment or phantasm it doesn't even make the illusion disappear for you.

Intangible doesn't mean it can't attack, it doesn't actually mean ANYTHING since it's not a game term. If they had said incorporeal it would make a difference but since there is no Intangible condition it has no effect.

Now since the spell is specifically calling out that the image CAN affect objects (yes it is as if they made the save but since the save doesn't mean the object can't be touched it just makes all the saves against the image) AND every other quasi-real shadow spell in the game can inflict damage on living things (show me any instance in the game where quasi-real doesn't do damage) and there is nothing written in the spell to counteract the stated rule that shadow spells do damage why should this spell be different?

It's a shadow spell shaped to look like a sword wielding monster who then proceeds to stick a quasi-real sword through someones mid-section, they should take damage. 7th level spells are no joke and break all the rules of reality within the confines of the spell.

edit: Simulacrum is a better written spell I'll admit but is exactly the same strength as this one, just trades flexibility for power.
With that said these two spells are from the same school, same level and roughly same intent. Why would anyone expect them to be so vastly different in power?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Tels wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Mathwei, if it did real damage it would say so...ALL the shadow subschool spells that do real damage say so.

Since it doesn't...it doesn't. You're operating off a false premise that 100% real damage is the base.

==Aelryinth

The core rules of the game state that all shadow spells do real damage it's the individual spells themselves that limit that.

The default is if a shadow spell does x damage you take x damage, shadow conjuration for example adds the extra line that says if you disbelieve it you only take 20%.

Specific trumps general but if there is NO specific then the general rule is enforced. The general rule for all shadow spells is the damage is real, that's black and white straight from the book.

The specific rule for Project Image is that they are intangible.

Specifically intangible trumps the general rule of shadow spells.

Yup and the specifics of this spell state it CAN affect objects

Quote:
Objects are affected by the projected image as if they had succeeded on their Will save.

so even though it IS intangible the specifics of the spell allows it to interact with real things.

Now, you all are trying to say that a 7TH level arcane spell is supposed to only do what a 3rd level spell (Major Image) can do?

Shadow spells generate semi-real things that can be used as things are. All the limitations that you all are trying to apply to this extremely high level spell are not written anywhere in the rules and directly contradict the written rules. Now if there is something out there that I've missed where it limits this spell this much I'd definitely like to see it.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

Mathwei, if it did real damage it would say so...ALL the shadow subschool spells that do real damage say so.

Since it doesn't...it doesn't. You're operating off a false premise that 100% real damage is the base.

==Aelryinth

The core rules of the game state that all shadow spells do real damage it's the individual spells themselves that limit that.

The default is if a shadow spell does x damage you take x damage, shadow conjuration for example adds the extra line that says if you disbelieve it you only take 20%.

Specific trumps general but if there is NO specific then the general rule is enforced. The general rule for all shadow spells is the damage is real, that's black and white straight from the book.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
blahpers wrote:

OK, time to shoot some things down again. *cracks knuckles*

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
A. It's an illusion but it's a Shadow illusion, meaning it's partially real and all it's damage is real. All 10 attacks a marilith can make each round the shadow can do to. And since it can create this image up to 260 feet away it's better then pounce.

Great, except the image only operates in one of two modes:

(A) It mimics your actions exactly. This means its attacks aren't directed at the same target as yours, and it does not react appropriately to a separate target at its own location. It's like synchronized swordfighting; the marilith may be effectively battling its opponent, but the images are not.
(B) The marilith directs the image to do something else, which is a move action every time. That limits the destructive potential of the marilith as well as its ability to command multiple images.

Quote:
Quote:
B. A Marilith can generate ANOTHER shadow Marilith each round and have it appear from anywhere it chooses within range of ANY of it's existing copies. Nothing in the Shadow projection spell says it's exclusive and as a constant SLA she can do this any time and as many times as she wants.
True, but not terribly effective as a mass murder tool.
Quote:
C. Finally before you say anything about the inherent weakness of illusion spells and high will saves remember as a genius the Marilith knows how to use her illusions in such a way as to keep you from interacting with them and getting a chance to disbelieve.
Quote:

As soon as the image attacks, you're "interacting with it". That's an automatic disbelieve chance every single attack. Aid Another would qualify as an interaction as well--if it isn't interacting with the marilith's target, it isn't really helping the marilith fight either.

Since the spell doesn't specify partial damage for nonbelievers the way shades and the like do, nonbelievers don't take any at all.

A marilith with its shadow army is terrifying to behold,...

Not quite true there. It's a move action to direct it to act differently which allows you to change how it acts not just have it take a different action. If you direct it to attack a target or group of targets until they are dead it will continue to do that. It doesn't need a move action every round.

Second you get one chance to disbelieve an illusion not once each time you interact with it. Running it any other way totally destroys the school of magic as valid. (granting a second save if conditions change is normal) AND since each marilith is a seperate casting of the spell the target needs to succeed on 16 different DC 25 saves in a row (if they are being focus fired).

Also, this is a SHADOW school spell and per the rules for shadow spells

Quote:
Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.

the damage is specifically called out as being real damage so you can't disbelieve it. You can disbelieve the projection but the damage is going to hurt you.

@Tels, The illusion school is broken down into 5 different sub-groups with the 5th sub-group being Shadow. Shadow spells are energy spells and are REAL. It's intangible letting it pass through objects and can't be hurt by non magical sources but it's damage is real. Just like Shadow Demons, intangible and lethal to living things.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


All this dissing on the Marilith boggles me. Any creature that can do a 160 attacks a round (EVERY base marilith can do this) and while still being able to take out any and every party member in a single round and still drop a SLA every round is not a joke.

Sorry about that buddy but arrows for telekinesis are gear, and treasure is not gear.

Huhn? What does telekinesis and gear have to do with anything I wrote?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Not using gear and changing feats makes the marilith even worse. A level 10 party can roll it over fairly easily.

All this dissing on the Marilith boggles me. Any creature that can do a 160 attacks a round (EVERY base marilith can do this) and while still being able to take out any and every party member in a single round and still drop a SLA every round is not a joke.

Now I'll definitely admit she has a few flaws (the teleport weight issue being the major one) she's still a nightmare for any party who gets into melee with her.

Also, Blade Barrier and Telekinesis are not the bread and butter of a Marilith, that belongs to the Project Image spell. This is the spell that a Marilith earned it's title with and lets it murder any other demon/mortal who gets in her way.

A. It's an illusion but it's a Shadow illusion, meaning it's partially real and all it's damage is real. All 10 attacks a marilith can make each round the shadow can do to. And since it can create this image up to 260 feet away it's better then pounce.

B. A Marilith can generate ANOTHER shadow Marilith each round and have it appear from anywhere it chooses within range of ANY of it's existing copies. Nothing in the Shadow projection spell says it's exclusive and as a constant SLA she can do this any time and as many times as she wants.

C. Finally before you say anything about the inherent weakness of illusion spells and high will saves remember as a genius the Marilith knows how to use her illusions in such a way as to keep you from interacting with them and getting a chance to disbelieve.
Personally I have her order them to perform aid another actions on the real one each round boosting her attack and AC by 16 each.

A Marilith is a leader and solo army and can run around with 16 shadow copies of herself at all times if she chooses each one having all of her melee power leaving the 17th to batter the party with her very potent SLA's to augment that.

The only weakness she really has which has kept her from usurping the rule of the Balor is her weakness to true seeing. That's the only reason she and her shadow clones haven't just jumped the Balor and beaten it to death.

This creature is a battlefield demon rushing into hordes of opponents as a flying wedge of melee death cutting through lesser demons with their shadow infused swords and grappling anything strong enough to survive the blades (crushing Coils ability is lethal when you need to make up to 16 DC 25 saves every round or go unconscious).

when she runs into a challenge with high will saves she simply pulls her clones back to aid her and melee's the target herself hitting every time while being unhittable by them (Het attack bonus starts at +40 with her weakest at +25 before adding in any other bonuses for terrain, spells or gear) with a TOUCH AC of 33 and a regular AC of 48.

Without True Seeing running any party that encounters this creature is DEAD, no question about it.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Well unless you can get an actual hag to join your coven AND adventure with you there's no need to modify those powers at all. As is the easiest thing to do is simply to run the power as is and IF your GM decides to let a Hag become a part of your coven keep her stationary.

You have to go to her to perform any of those rituals keeping the game breaking spells out of combat. Worst case with this is you get a few extra low level undead following the party around every once in awhile with a few useful Divination spells if the party is interested enough to use them.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Ring of Wizardry 1 or 2. Most useful item ever for a standard Magus.
Who can say no to twice as many 1st level spells (bread and butter for nova magi).

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, a claw, or unarmed strike, is not actually a weapon, but there is an exception within the Weapon Focus feat, to allow them to be selected?

This is your stance?

And all natural attacks are specifically flagged as weapons including claws.

Since there is nothing written about this ability that calls it out as being classified as a weapon it's not a valid choice for weapon focus.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
_ego wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Okay, so it's RAW, but not RAW, because of a whole bunch of houserules.

Why don't you just list those houserules?

You can get better advice that way.

Sorry, we started with CORE, but he recently said he'd allow the APG. So I guess just these:

+ Core Rulebook
+ Advanced Player's Guide

Bestiary abilities: I am fairly certain will not be allowed. Sorry if using RAW caused confusion. He has been going very much by RAW, and not RAI. hope that helps.

so far with this class I asked if I could be 1/2 orc, he said no because the archetype is under orc. At the time I was unaware of the FAQ and the racial heritage feat, so I didn't mention either the feat OR the FAQ. There is a chance he may change his mind on either, but I do not know, and would prefer to have advice assuming neither is allowed.

Well since it's Core + APG then how are you using the scarred witch doctor since that's from the advanced race guide?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

The only issue you may run into is with this little line from the rage ability.

rage wrote:
While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.

This will be up to your GM whether or not a supernatural ability falls under this restriction but I usually expect it to.

Cheliax **

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Well first I'll let you know you did just about everything correct (except prepping the optional encounter. Those tend to be the most fun when you get to use them but not an issue here)

Second, the scenario itself is woefully underwhelming and ranks about as difficult as a season 0 mod so, meh. The only suggestions I can give is to work on your immersion. Remember you have a full on Paladin leader of the goody goody faction standing right there. I don't believe she would be comfortable with a group of heavily armored thugs effectively robbing a merchant directly in front of her.

Honestly, for this scenario the only fight that matters is the first one against the devil, prep that one as much as you can then focus on the RP for everything else.
The fights are a non-issue for any party, the boss is a pushover but the story is interesting. Focus on getting that into the event and amp up the social possibilities as much as you can.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Rudy2 wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Nope, spell combat also requires that you have a weapon in your other hand for the entire round as well.

Hmm... prehensile tail is looking less and less like it's something useful.

Ah, but the following would work for spellstrike at least, yes?

Start of the round, nothing in either hand. Enemy is not next to you.

You swift action retrieve the rod to one hand using your tail. You cast the spell as a standard action, having the charge in hand. You then move to the enemy as your move action, drawing your weapon as part of the move. Finally, you use your free melee delivery attack on the enemy through your weapon. This works, yes? If so, then the tail is still useful to a magus.

That is perfectly legal. The issue is strictly with the limitations built into the Spell Combat ability. That limitation is what's keeping the magus from adding a rod to the mixture.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Rudy2 wrote:

If one can't use the tail to hold a metamagic rod, then does the following sequence work?

Start of the round. Glove of Storing on your Weapon hand. The hand is holding your scimitar. You are holding nothing in your other hand.

You start Spell Combat, since you have a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other.

Free action, your glove of storing sucks up the weapon, leaving the hand free for casting.

You retrieve your metamagic wand into your other hand using your tail as a swift action, and cast your spell as part of spell combat. You drop the rod as a free action (your familiar will get it, or something; don't worry about it)

Your weapon comes back into your hand from the glove as a free action, and you can now proceed to make your attacks from Spell Combat.

?

Nope, spell combat also requires that you have a weapon in your other hand for the entire round as well.

Unless you have a third hand to use that rod you can never mix Spell Combat and a metamagic rod together.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Lincoln Hills wrote:

It was a joke. The wizard may have an easier path to becoming immortal and using phenomenal cosmic powers, but when it comes to selling people a line of total hogwash, use a bard!

(This line of thought has given me a good campaign idea about a dynasty of rulers - or a succession of usurpers - who all use illusions to appear as the kingdom's very first ruler, in order to convince people that they're the Original Invincible Immortal God-King.)

So you are going to use the background story of Equilibrium as your campaign? Good idea, still enjoy that movie.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Much easier method and far more game friendly is for the BBEG to go into the Living Monolith prestige class.
Quick, clean and avoids the craziness of a 20th level caster.

Quote:

Ageless Stone (Ex)

At 10th level, a living monolith becomes immortal. He ceases aging (though any aging effects already accrued remain in place) and becomes immune to energy drain and death effects, though he can still be killed by other means.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

B). Evil Eye and Misfortune are usually the best first level hexes for a debuff/party friendly witch to grab. Evil Eye is strictly better at first level since it's guaranteed to work on everything not immune to mind affecting. It's also the preferred since the Witch hasn't had a chance to get the optimization to get the DC's for their hexes up yet.

C). Witches are not Damage dealers normally, and unless that is going to be the focus of the character bothering to prep direct damage spells is a waste of a spell slot. A witch ruins a targets ability to act setting them up for the rest of the party to kill them with ease. The should rarely concern themselves with delivering that blow. Keep a crossbow around if you feel the need to do damage but other then that ignore anything HP related.

b) Evil Eye and Misfortune? No Cackle?

Keeping whatever you do from being 1 round only seems more important to me.

c) It's nice to be able to do something other then debuff, especially at low levels when even a little damage can go a long way and you don't have access to what you really want: area effect battlefield control. My witch wasn't in PFS, but I got some good use out of the Scream.

While nice Cackle is not usually needed at 1st level for PFS and is usually a wasted choice. The average target dies in 1 round or less in Organized play.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Woran wrote:
Kraid_brb wrote:


If possible, I'd like for this character to avoid picking up healing or buffing spells. There's always a cleric around in PFS.

I have yet to see a cleric yet, and I have only ever seen one paladin.

Oh we have several clerics in my area, none of them heal or buff others but we have them.

I think we have 1 cleric who DOESN'T channel negative in the whole lot as well.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Kraid_brb wrote:

I understand, but isn't it also a good idea to someday take Spell focus on one school of magic? In that case, shouldn't I try to keep my spells from as few schools as possible?

More so, I was considering using Evil eye and Misfortune as a baseline on a target, on top of those I would cast other, more potent effects from the enchantment school to completely shutdown the target. e.g. E eye + Misfortune + Command (fall), and later on something more powerful than Command.

Also, now that you recomend NOT learning damage dealing spells I realy feel I could stick to a couple of schools (enchantment and maybe evocation).

If possible, I'd like for this character to avoid picking up healing or buffing spells. There's always a cleric around in PFS.

Anyway it's realy hell building spellcasters.

Spell focus is great if you want to focus on that school of magic. Witches however (especially in PFS) rarely wind up actually casting spells. Hexes tend to be the go to action every round with the actual spellcasting happening outside of combat. Every Hex in your arsenal tends to be 2-3 times as powerful as your highest level spell and in comparison you'll never want to waste your limited turn in combat doing something sub-optimal. Your example above is spot-on instance of these. Would you rather burn 2-3 rounds to make a target prone or to make him unconscious instead?

If you don't want to pick up the buffing or healing spells that pretty much leaves you with the summoning & conjuration schools to focus on (Necromancy is already a witch favorite). I'd recommend Shadow then so you can use the Shadow Conjuration spell to REALLY up your spellcasting options for mid-game play.

Cheliax **

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Go White Haired Witch going into Cyphermage.
There's very little that is worse or more non-effective then that.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Well let's clear a few minor confusions up.

A). We never take slumber at first level in PFS, it's your 2nd level hex. Remember, slumber isn't affected by Cackle so it's rarely going to last long enough to take a target out of the fight.
In PFS you rarely know if you'll be playing with someone who can take advantage of the free CDG check you get so it's better for your first 2 hexes to be a passive party bonus.

B). Evil Eye and Misfortune are usually the best first level hexes for a debuff/party friendly witch to grab. Evil Eye is strictly better at first level since it's guaranteed to work on everything not immune to mind affecting. It's also the preferred since the Witch hasn't had a chance to get the optimization to get the DC's for their hexes up yet.

C). Witches are not Damage dealers normally, and unless that is going to be the focus of the character bothering to prep direct damage spells is a waste of a spell slot. A witch ruins a targets ability to act setting them up for the rest of the party to kill them with ease. The should rarely concern themselves with delivering that blow. Keep a crossbow around if you feel the need to do damage but other then that ignore anything HP related.

D). Finally, most important recommendation we can give is to pick your patron based on covering the weaknesses of your hex build. As a debuffer you are going to be chock full of mind affecting powers, your patron should give you something else. It should also give you access to spells that you normally don't get but really want (like mirror image, shadow conjuration, haste or something to deal with undead.
For PFS I alwayas recommend Time->Shadow->Ancestors->Healing. This shores up the biggest weaknesses an average PFS team usually has and ALWAYS gives the witch something to do every round no matter what the challenge is.

A patron

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Experiment 626 wrote:

I'm not seeing how that Ray of Enfeeblement thing would work. Strength Damage doesn't look to affect carrying capacity or encumbrance unless there's a house rule involved.

"Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense. A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious. Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks."

Source linky.

Ray of enfeeblement doesn't do strength damage. It applies a penalty to a targets strength score.

Ray of Enfeeblement wrote:
The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1.

This doesn't use the ability damage/drain rules at all so the restrictions and limitations of that rule don't apply here.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Gauss wrote:

Just a point here, the pro-slope arguments are missing the fact that you have to be ON the slope. That is written into the rule.

The slope only exists around the 10x10 pit. The 10x10 pit is not a slope, it is a sheer wall and as such if the pit is opened up underneath a target they cannot use the climb-slope rule.

For targets adjacent to the pit then, yes, you can use the slope rule.

Summary: you have to be on the slope to use the climb skill's slope DC. Adjacent to the slope is not what the rule is.

Please show us anywhere in the rule as written where it says you have to be on the slope? It's not there so you won't find it.

Also please explain how in the world can you be on the slope AND falling at the same time? You are either on the ground or you are falling through the air, it's not possible to be doing both at the same time.

@bookeeper, How can you defeat a 3rd level spell (mirror Image) with a free action (closing your eyes)? Or any level of spell that sets a target on fire with a water skin?

The power of a spell doesn't matter when it comes into contact with the rules of the game. If the rules say the universe works this way and the spell doesn't specifically say it changes how the universe works then the universal rules beat the spell 100% of the time.

PRD wrote:
Check: With a successful Climb check, you can advance up, down, or across a slope, wall, or other steep incline (or even across a ceiling, provided it has handholds) at one-quarter your normal speed. A slope is considered to be any incline at an angle measuring less than 60 degrees; a wall is any incline at an angle measuring 60 degrees or more.

The climb check is based on the surface you are climbing.

The guy in the pit area when the spell is cast is climbing the wall, not the slope.

Diego, you are usually spot on with rules so I've enjoyed reading your posts for some time but I'm going to disagree with you here.

The guy is not in the pit when he's trying to climb, he's over the pit trying to avoid falling into it. That is straight from the spell description and the skill description. ALL of this discussion has been about what's happening BEFORE he's in the pit.

I'd like you to take 5 minutes and think about a simple question for me based on this statement you just made. The one where you say you have to be in the area of what you are climbing instead of just adjacent to it.

How do you climb a 5' thick castle wall? It completely fills the square it's in so you can't enter that square so you can't climb it.
Climbing is ALWAYS started adjacent to the surface you are trying to climb and with the successful climb check you then move into that square. Nothing else makes any sense.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

PFS is strictly a rules as written game, and EVERYONE there will tell you that your interpretation is incorrect. Feel free to ask this question again there and watch.

The big difference between our interpretation is you are trying to apply real world expectations to a game based on a different set of world rules. Many things are simplified or just completely changed to a non-logical effect to make the game work. This is one of them.

Damage is strictly a penalty on a die roll stats stay the same, Drain actually lowers the stat itself. Accept it or don't, it's just a game after all.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Ishpumalibu wrote:
I don't know if it's been mentioned but cooperative crafting would halve your crafting time.

And if you rushed it with an additional +5 to the DC you would double how much gold value you can produce during the day.

Put these two tactics together and you'd have Timmy ready in about 4-ish months.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
PSusac wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


With the sheer number of str 8 casters out there this drops them below 0 and invokes this rule

"A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious."

And they fall out of the sky.

Not true. The spell specifies that it reduces the strength to a minimum of 1. So they can't be knocked unconscious with this spell.

However, it is likely that they will drop under the weight of their own gear. The problem is that in standard "Piazo Bad Editing" fashion, there is no clear rule for how magical (as opposed to winged) flight works. Hovering is a DC 15 fly check.

Let's look at an some examples of outcomes by my interpretation of RAW:

Example 1: Suppose you are a wizard with a Strength of 8 and you suddenly find you have a strength of 1. Let's further suppose you have a handy haversack, and a few other items, so your total weight carried is only 20 pounds. Now with a strength of 1 your maximum load is 10 pounds. The wizard has his movement reduced to reduced his movement to 5'

Example 2: If the same wizard had been carrying 35 pounds, he would have exceeded triple his max load. So now what? Well the rules are silent on this - I would argue that he simply falls and takes normal damage from falling, but a generous GM might rule that he is "dragged to the ground" (in effect he's not dragging the weight, the weight is dragging him), and he takes no damage.

Example 3: If the same wizard were carrying more than 50 pounds, I would definitely rule that he falls and takes damage though.

Bah, I always forget that dang can't reduce below 1.

But that's really the point, drop the strength to 1 or 2 and apply that -6 penalty while stripping away their dex bonus. Tends to BADLY ruining the capabilities of a flying character.

Cheliax

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Gauss wrote:

Just a point here, the pro-slope arguments are missing the fact that you have to be ON the slope. That is written into the rule.

The slope only exists around the 10x10 pit. The 10x10 pit is not a slope, it is a sheer wall and as such if the pit is opened up underneath a target they cannot use the climb-slope rule.

For targets adjacent to the pit then, yes, you can use the slope rule.

Summary: you have to be on the slope to use the climb skill's slope DC. Adjacent to the slope is not what the rule is.

Please show us anywhere in the rule as written where it says you have to be on the slope? It's not there so you won't find it.

Also please explain how in the world can you be on the slope AND falling at the same time? You are either on the ground or you are falling through the air, it's not possible to be doing both at the same time.

@bookeeper, How can you defeat a 3rd level spell (mirror Image) with a free action (closing your eyes)? Or any level of spell that sets a target on fire with a water skin?

The power of a spell doesn't matter when it comes into contact with the rules of the game. If the rules say the universe works this way and the spell doesn't specifically say it changes how the universe works then the universal rules beat the spell 100% of the time.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
A_psychic_rat wrote:

you see its not like that at all thought. you only really recieve negatives from drain in increments of 2 as well cuz it acts the same way. taking 1 point of stat drain does not have to affect the ability score modifier, thus is the benefit of having say a 15 in a score, but damage ould do the same thing.

if you have 14 str thats a +2 bonus, take 1 point of damage and you are at 13 thus you only have a +1.

if you have 14 str thats a +2 bonus, take 1 point of drain and you are at 13 thus you only have a +1.

while with damage that point will heal in a day, drain speciffically requires restoration to cure it

when calculating how damage affects you character we only tell you the pertinant stuff like attack bonus and CMD and such cuz it is most relevent as like 99% of the sources of ability damage happen in combat and you dont care about the other stuff. you are correct in ne sence i looked it up and damage cant make you inelligable for feats so say two weapon fighting will work even if you have 10 points in dex damage. where drain does make feats stop working so i suppose there is that. i think thats incossistant but hey, i can house rule that.

drain is supposed to be longer term as you may not have someone who can cast restoration on you at will, some partys lack casters so they need to think about it. in the end both should function exactly the same. just like with temp and perm bonuses to stats, damage is a temp negative to stats and drain is a perm negative (that you can heal).

when they tell you what things damage affects its the quick stuff.

damage does not signify a strained muscle, it means your muscles have suffered damage in such a way that they cant support you such as a strain , a tear in the flesh, one could role play int damage as amnisia or something. drain mearly means whatever is causing the damage isnt going away on its own, be it a curse or a wound that healed wrong or something.

if somethingg modifies your stats it modifys everything to do with that stat front to back...

Well lets stop right there, your example is incorrect so lets clarify that first.

If you have 14 str that's a +2 bonus, take 1 point of strength damage and you are still at 14 with a +2 bonus since damage will only affect your bonus in increments of 2. All of your feats, abilities and weight limits stay the same.

If you have 14 str thats a +2 bonus, take 1 point of drain and you are now at 13 thus you only have a +1 AND your max weight and light, medium, heavy load penalties change. Also if you have any feats or abilities that require you to have Str score of 14 they now stop working since you no longer meet the prerequisites.

Next step:
If you have 14 str that's a +2 bonus, take 2 point of strength damage and you are still at 14 strength with a +2 bonus BUT you also now have a -1 penalty on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Damage doesn't change your actual score it only applies an ever increasing penalty to it.

YOU are not reading the quoted rules and applying your interpretation which is the exact opposite of the written rules. Pathfinder is a literal rule set and things only affect EXACTLY what they say they affect. Damage says it does x, y & z so that's all that it does. Drain says it affects EVERYTHING related to that stat so that's what IT does.

Trying to say it does something it says it doesn't goes directly against the rulings on how the developers designed the game to function.

Read it again.

edit: To clarify it more, looking at how all the other character affecting "Debuffs" work you will say that in each chain the next step is worse then the previous step.
Shaken is bad but frightened is shaken plus worse while panicked is even worse then frightened.
Staggered is bad, but Stunned is worse.
Damage is bad, but Drain is worse.

It's a game of steadily increasing penalties and difficulties, and missing the differences between each step of the penalties lessen the game.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Bookkeeper wrote:

To be sure, the pits have played hell with several AP encounters I've played in, most of them involving giants. As it turns out, most of them don't have ranks in Climb, and find getting back up, even bracing against both sides, to be a challenge.

It does seem to me that being able to negate an entire suite of spells with a DC 10 skill check doesn't pass the smell test. There are a small handful of effects in the game that allow a second chance to avoid the bad thing happening to you: The necromantic ray spells, Phantasmal Killer. This is not in that grouping.

Even if we were to interpret that there was a possibility of catching yourself before falling all the way into the pit, your interpretation that the faller would get to use the DC of the slope, rather than the DC of the wall, is completely in the "GM's decision" realm. As a GM, I would find a DC 35 climb check a more plausible last-ditch solution to denying a spell's impact than a DC 10 check, which would render the spells nearly ineffective.

Then you would be going against the exact written words of the core rulebook. It designates that climbing all slopes is a DC 0 unless specified otherwise. It also states that the DC for catching hold of a slope is "much easier" then catching hold of a wall.

Also though Giants don't have ranks in Climb they usually don't need it since it can be tried untrained and they get to use their monster Strength score on it. This is why I recommended to the OP if he wanted to tone this spell down to give his creatures 1 rank in climb. That solves the OP nature of this spell.

Cheliax

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Serum wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Load up on a few Rays of Enfeeblement in those little used 1st level slots.

Remember a flyer cannot fly if their encumbrance is at a heavy load and they get terrible penalties if they are at or over medium.
(A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor.)
Hit a wizard/sorcerer with this spell and you can actually strip them of their ability to cast spells (impose an arcane spell failure check on every attempt to cast a spell).

A metamagic'ed (empowered or persistent or quickened are best) can take a flyer completely out of the fight in 1 round.

Where does it say in Pathfinder that a creature cannot fly if they are restricted by heavy/medium armor (Barding and its restrictions only applies to mounts)?

What spell failure chance does a medium load create?

Under the lifting and carrying rules.

Lifting & Carrying wrote:
A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).

Added to this rule under the fly skill

fly skill wrote:
a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.

A creature who's strength is dropped enough (especially a flyer who isn't known for having high strength to begin with) is suddenly completely over-loaded with 1 casting of the OP's ray of enfeeblement (minimum 7 points max 12 or 15 if empowered).

Per the encumbrance rules not only does that target all but +1 from his dexterity bonus (which is what Fly is based on) they also suffer a -6 to all fly checks and that's just if they are carrying less then twice their new maximum load.
Now for any character other then the strength based martial the OP's will drop their strength to a 1 or 2 meaning 21 lbs keeps them from moving at all.
With the sheer number of str 8 casters out there this drops them below 0 and invokes this rule
Strength wrote:
A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious.

And they fall out of the sky.

As for what spell failure chance a medium load causes that will be somewhere between %20-%30 like all medium armors cause (the GM will have to decide the exact amount).

I never said the rules are perfect only that this is another option to bring flyers down.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

If you do not like how the game differentiates these two types of attacks feel free to change it in your game but your idea drastically changes the CR of creatures that use these two attacks.

As written drain is easily twice as dangerous as damage since every point of it weakens a victim. Damage needs 2 points at a time to even affect a target.

And there is a massive difference between between pulling a muscle (damage) vs removing that muscle completely out of someones body.
If you don't see the difference between those two then there's nothing else I can say.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
yeti1069 wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


As I wrote earlier it's a DC 10 climb check to catch yourself from sliding down a slope and falling into a bit. This means any target who makes that check doesn't move so the only need to crawl 10 feet to be completely out of the pit's area. If they can make a DC 15 check then the move at half speed (usually 15 feet more or less).
the reason 1 point is usually enough is Climb is on 80% of the creature types out there's class skill list. This gives them 1 +3 +(Str/Dex Bonus) vs that DC 10 making this an almost automatic success to avoid falling into the pit AND making it out.
Everyone puts a point into the climb skill for a reason and this is one of those reasons.
That would be against slipping into the pit when you're standing on the sloped surface around it. If you fail your Reflex and fall into the pit, you would be rolling Climb vs. DC 45. And even in the case of slipping into the pit, I'd say you'd be rolling against the same DC--the Climb check of 10 + slope's DC is to catch yourself from sliding down the slope, not from falling off the end of it, and allowing a Climb check in that circumstance would negate the Reflex save that the spell calls for. I wouldn't allow someone to do that. Catching yourself falling into the pit? Sure, but I'd like to see someone make that DC 45 check at a level where Create Pit is still relevant.

Now you are making assumptions that are in no way written anywhere in this spell or skill and have already been addressed earlier in this thread.

But to state it again, NO the check is not to avoid slipping into the pit. The written rules specifically say FALLING not slipping or sliding or whatever other term you want to use, it's strictly FALLING.
You fall the reflex save and you fall, the climb rules state any time you fall you can make a climb check to grab wall and not fall. If there is a slope it is always an easier check.
Since the spell doesn't state a DC for the slope you use the default of 0+10 for this check to grab the edge.
I know your next argument will be it can't be 0 and decide to use the DC of the pit but that violates the climb rules that specifically give a DC for a slope.

@ Meager Rolmug, you are now throwing out crazy suggestions that are completely against the rules. The reason you get to make a climb check is because the core rulebook says you get to make this check. It does NOT say you can make an acrobatics check or a sense motive or any of the other random things you threw out.
The rules say you CAN do this so do it, the rules do NOT say you can do any of the things you are asking about so you CANNOT do them. Period.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
simon hacker wrote:

Kolokotroni I agree with you but it depends on the encounters and enemies in the AP im running and the environment. I run AP's as I dont have the time or energy to write my own. If the pit gets cast and the eneny as written cant do anything other than try to get out then its not fun. Everythng you say is valid IF the enemy in the pit has access to them and they get to go first if not then its a problem.

If you have a problem with create pit the only modification you need to do is give each bad guy a single point in the climb skill. This will keep 80+% of your creatures from falling into the pit and change the spell to simply be a 1 round delay spell. (bad guy has to spend a full round action to climb off the slope and stand up then they are back in the fight)
This is not true. How does a single point of climb get you an 80% chance of not falling in? Also a creatures climb speed is 1/4 of their base speed, so even double-moving it will take two turns to climb out of a 30 ft pit most of the time. Also the climb DC for a normal pit is 25. That is not a one point of climb triviality.

As I wrote earlier it's a DC 10 climb check to catch yourself from sliding down a slope and falling into a bit. This means any target who makes that check doesn't move so the only need to crawl 10 feet to be completely out of the pit's area. If they can make a DC 15 check then the move at half speed (usually 15 feet more or less).

the reason 1 point is usually enough is Climb is on 80% of the creature types out there's class skill list. This gives them 1 +3 +(Str/Dex Bonus) vs that DC 10 making this an almost automatic success to avoid falling into the pit AND making it out.
Everyone puts a point into the climb skill for a reason and this is one of those reasons.
This is not true. You cannot catch yourself before falling into the pit. You get a reflex save. You fail it you fall...

You obviously haven't read the Climb skill rules so until you can address that you really have nothing to say in this argument. Now if you wish to address the point in question here you are more then welcome to join in.

@Meager Rolmug , Per the rules of the pathfinder system since this spell specifically calls into play the climb rules AND unless there is something in the spell that specifically excludes any part of that existing rule (ie. the catch yourself) then those rules are valid and must be used.
The spell has to deal with this possibility and since it doesn't say not to use this part of the climb skill it works.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
A_psychic_rat wrote:

Actually there is no differance between stat drain and stat damage asside from one heals naturally over time and the other does not. the only reason they dont talk about things like carrying capacity for damage is because it supposed to be temperary and only really effect you in the short term ie. combat right now, where drain is longer term assuming you cant get a restoration spell up in here.

it works the exact same way with boosts. except skillpoints and int i think, you only get skill points from perm int bonuses cuz otherwise you could do an int buff whenever you wanted thast one skill you didnt take points in, and thats a tad broken

No, that is completely incorrect. Damage only affects you in increments of 2 where every 2 points equals -1 penalty to the specific checks listed for that ability damage.

Drain on the other hand permanently lowers the affected score and changes all stats based on that score.
Read the link referenced above and see just how different these two attacks are.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Ok, you want citations here you go.

First,

Threatened Squares wrote:

You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.

Any target of any size in an adjacent 5' square can be reached and attacked with any weapon. Whether it's the 5x5x5 gelatinous cube filling the square or the 1 inch tall fairy in the far back upper-most square an attacker can still reach it.

Secondly,

faq 9/25/12 wrote:

FAQ Link, Can you pick up or manipulate an object in a square within your reach? Does this provoke an AOO? Does it provoke even if the foe can reach the object, but not your space?

The rules are a little hazy here, but to put it simply, you can affect objects and creatures within your reach. When picking up or manipulating objects, you generally provoke an attack of opportunity, but only against foes that can reach your space.

No matter where in a adjacent square something is you can always reach out and put your hand on it.

Next,

Squeezing wrote:

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.

When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.

A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.

To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space's width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can't attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

Since you can attack anything in any part of an adjacent square and can reach out and grab anything in any part of any adjacent square and ,unless you are tiny or smaller, only 1 creature can occupy a given 5' square this lets you know that 5' cube you are in is all you.

Finally the climb rules for catching yourself,

climb wrote:

Catch Yourself When Falling

It’s practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling. Make a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 20) to do so. It’s much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope’s DC + 10).

Specifically state if you are falling you can catch yourself on a slope. It does NOT say sliding down a slope it says FALLING you can catch yourself on a slope.

If you were sliding down a slope you wouldn't be falling.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Load up on a few Rays of Enfeeblement in those little used 1st level slots.
Remember a flyer cannot fly if their encumbrance is at a heavy load and they get terrible penalties if they are at or over medium.
(A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor.)
Hit a wizard/sorcerer with this spell and you can actually strip them of their ability to cast spells (impose an arcane spell failure check on every attempt to cast a spell).

A metamagic'ed (empowered or persistent or quickened are best) can take a flyer completely out of the fight in 1 round.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Draco18s wrote:

So I just did the math on the sloped portions of the pit.

If the sloped section is 5 feet wide (it is, it takes up the full square) that means that that section extends down to 10 feet from the pit's surface, at the 60 degree angle cutoff between "slope" and "wall."

So, I'm going to have to disagree that you can catch yourself on this when the pit forms. If you fail the reflex for "standing next to the pit" then yeah, you totally can catch yourself on a slope.

But not if your within the 10x10 effected area: You're going to fall 10 feet before the slopped section is within grabbing distance. And at that point, it's a wall. Large size creature, of course, has natural reach, and will be able to grab the slope, I've got no problems with this, it's medium and smaller creatures that will be unable to reach out and catch the slope part.

Not to mention the problems of having both hands free. For a fighter type that means dropping either weapon or shield in order to have a hand free. And that dropped item is going to be in the pit until the spell ends.

Remember, all creatures occupy the 5' square they are in COMPLETELY. Every square centimeter of it is filled by the object/creature so 3 dimensional space is ignored.

A creature in 1 square can reach every point in every adjacent square so that math doesn't matter. This is part of the abstraction built into the combat rules.

Having to drop or sheath your weapon to climb is a valid and understood requirement and makes the spell as powerful as it is while still keeping it under the level of brokenly over-powered that this thread is addressing.

@plaidwandering, that falls under the "Rule of Cool" usually. The standard action star running down the hall with his trusty pistol/shield/sword/etc. who falls down a pit grabs hold of the ledge without dropping his weapon and hangs there for a moment. He then either tosses the weapon over the ledge before climbing up or sheathes it and then climbing up is usually how it's portrayed. Rules-wise it's just a climb check to catch on then a move action to put the weapon away or free action to drop it in an adjacent square (where it falls in the pit if you do it on a slope).

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Talcrion wrote:
Well I happen to disagree with your interpretation about what they consider catching yourself on a slope. I think it's pretty clear. But to each their own.

And you are well within your rights to run this however you choose in your games. We just ask that you remember your interpretation is pretty much death and/or complete uselessness/out of the fight for every target who doesn't have a Good reflex save from a 2nd level spell slot.

AND has caused dozens of GM's to come onto these forums complaining about how overpowered this line of spells are.

My interpretation still makes this a strong spell (completely out of the fight for at least 1 round) without making this spell an instant win button.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Talcrion wrote:
For the record I don't think the slope DC applies, it seems to me that is meant to indicate when you are rolling down a slope and trying to stop yourself from falling. This seems far more akin to catching onto a flat surface while falling. I don't see these rules that you say specify for catching a slop while not sliding down the slope though, so perhaps I'm just blind.

The sum total of what is written about slops in the climb skill

Slopes wrote:

Catch Yourself When Falling

It’s practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling. Make a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 20) to do so. It’s much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope’s DC + 10).

Also remember the way the spell works. You don't target the square under an opponent you target a vertex so it affects the requisite number of squares. No matter what square the opponent is in they are literally within reach of the slope. Put out a hand and grab hold of that slope to catch yourself then just climb up and out.

I wish I could draw it out to make it easier to understand but grab your flip mat and do this.
Pick any 4 adjacent squares in a box formation nad put a dot at the point where all 4 of the boxes touch. Those are the squares that drop out when the spell is cast.
Now look at every square touching one of those initial 4 squares, those are the slope squares. If you put a figure in any of those initial squares they occupy ALL the space in whatever square they are in.
With that view all they need to do is grab hold of any part of that slope square (no action cost since it happens off their turn at DC 10) and make climb check (DC 10; DC 15 to do it at half speed) to climb that slope and move to the next square.

edit: @WROY, Incorrect, keep reading the climb rules.

Climb Rules wrote:


You need both hands free to climb, but you may cling to a wall with one hand while you cast a spell or take some other action that requires only one hand. While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). You also can’t use a shield while climbing. Anytime you take damage while climbing, make a Climb check against the DC of the slope or wall. Failure means you fall from your current height and sustain the appropriate falling damage.

As long as the target has one hand free the can grab and cling to the wall, they only need 2 hands if they want to actually move around.

And the hole doesn't just suddenly appear, the ground just drops rapidly out from under the target and then rises back up when the spell ends.
If it just suddenly disappeared there would be no way for them to jump out of the square into an adjacent square since there would be nothing to jump against to move.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
DrDeth wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Talcrion wrote:
Pitt, I believe he's using the catch onto the side rules saying he never falls in so the distance doesn't matter. I haven't crunched the numbers, but it doesn't seem quite as easy as it's being made out to be, but again, haven't tested it too hard.

Yup and the numbers make it easier then you could imagine.

Take for instance an average 1HD CR 1/3rd Orc and give him a single point in Climb. This gives him a base climb skill of 7 (1 +3(class skill) +3(str bonus).
It needs to roll a 3 or better to avoid falling into the pit and a 7 or better to fast crawl 10 feet away as a single move action (using his standard action to stand up).
Create Pit simply costs that Orc 1 full round action to handle this spell.
Add to that since he gets to pick what direction he crawls and no PC can get adjacent to him while he crawls out the party can't even take advantage of his prone/flat footed Ac or take the AoO while it stands up.
Yes, but only on the slope. If he's unlucky enuf to have the spell cast directly underneath him, it's a DC 45.

Doesn't matter, as long as there is a slope it's a DC 10. Notice the rules state catching yourself on a slope NOT while sliding down a slope. No matter where you are standing every pit spell has a DC 10 climb check to avoid falling down the hole.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Talcrion wrote:
Pitt, I believe he's using the catch onto the side rules saying he never falls in so the distance doesn't matter. I haven't crunched the numbers, but it doesn't seem quite as easy as it's being made out to be, but again, haven't tested it too hard.

Yup and the numbers make it easier then you could imagine.

Take for instance an average 1HD CR 1/3rd Orc and give him a single point in Climb. This gives him a base climb skill of 7 (1 +3(class skill) +3(str bonus).
It needs to roll a 3 or better to avoid falling into the pit and a 7 or better to fast crawl 10 feet away as a single move action (using his standard action to stand up).
Create Pit simply costs that Orc 1 full round action to handle this spell.
Add to that since he gets to pick what direction he crawls and no PC can get adjacent to him while he crawls out the party can't even take advantage of his prone/flat footed Ac or take the AoO while it stands up.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
simon hacker wrote:

Kolokotroni I agree with you but it depends on the encounters and enemies in the AP im running and the environment. I run AP's as I dont have the time or energy to write my own. If the pit gets cast and the eneny as written cant do anything other than try to get out then its not fun. Everythng you say is valid IF the enemy in the pit has access to them and they get to go first if not then its a problem.

If you have a problem with create pit the only modification you need to do is give each bad guy a single point in the climb skill. This will keep 80+% of your creatures from falling into the pit and change the spell to simply be a 1 round delay spell. (bad guy has to spend a full round action to climb off the slope and stand up then they are back in the fight)
This is not true. How does a single point of climb get you an 80% chance of not falling in? Also a creatures climb speed is 1/4 of their base speed, so even double-moving it will take two turns to climb out of a 30 ft pit most of the time. Also the climb DC for a normal pit is 25. That is not a one point of climb triviality.

As I wrote earlier it's a DC 10 climb check to catch yourself from sliding down a slope and falling into a bit. This means any target who makes that check doesn't move so the only need to crawl 10 feet to be completely out of the pit's area. If they can make a DC 15 check then the move at half speed (usually 15 feet more or less).

the reason 1 point is usually enough is Climb is on 80% of the creature types out there's class skill list. This gives them 1 +3 +(Str/Dex Bonus) vs that DC 10 making this an almost automatic success to avoid falling into the pit AND making it out.
Everyone puts a point into the climb skill for a reason and this is one of those reasons.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
simon hacker wrote:

Kolokotroni I agree with you but it depends on the encounters and enemies in the AP im running and the environment. I run AP's as I dont have the time or energy to write my own. If the pit gets cast and the eneny as written cant do anything other than try to get out then its not fun. Everythng you say is valid IF the enemy in the pit has access to them and they get to go first if not then its a problem.

If you have a problem with create pit the only modification you need to do is give each bad guy a single point in the climb skill. This will keep 80+% of your creatures from falling into the pit and change the spell to simply be a 1 round delay spell. (bad guy has to spend a full round action to climb off the slope and stand up then they are back in the fight)

Cheliax

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Create Pit is a complicated spell but remember it actually allows 2 chances to resist it.

Once your bad guy has failed his save against the spell he is still entitled to a immediate climb check to catch himself from actually falling into the pit.

climb skill wrote:

Catch Yourself When Falling

It’s practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling. Make a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 20) to do so. It’s much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope’s DC + 10).

DC for climbing a slope wrote:

DC Example Surface or Activity

0 A slope too steep to walk up, or a knotted rope with a wall to brace against.

Remember all the wall spells specifically call out that there is a slope that the target slides down before falling into the pit.

That means a target who fails the save needs to make a DC 10-ish climb check to avoid falling into the pit. Now they are prone and probably flat footed while they climb up the slope and leave the area of the pit so it's still a nasty spell but it's not the complete end of the world that most GM's have been complaining about.

Now if your critter can't make that Climb check then they are still completely shut down but at least this gives you a chance.

Cheliax **

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
bugleyman wrote:
The big bad in this scenario melts faces. That is all.

Here's the fun part, EVERY big bad at the end of a scenario needs to be about this bad.

So tired of the end of every scenario being cakewalked over by the PC's steamrolling the final fight.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Important point to emphasize here, there is a difference between ability DRAIN attacks and ability DAMAGING attacks.

Damaging attacks simply apply a -1 penalty for every 2 points an ability takes. This means it only affects certain defined parts of each stat (ie 2 points of strength damage will lower your attack rolls and damage done but will NOT change your carry capacity)

Drain attacks are a more severe attack. Drains actually lower your ability score and changes the number on your character sheet. ie a 20 str character drained of 1 point becomes a 19 str character and EVERYTHING based on that score drops.
Also Drain unlike damage doesn't heal. You either get it healed or you stay at this reduced ability score forever.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

So, you're trying to make a Grammaton Cleric then?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Well you NEED to take Split Hex and Split Major Hex. You waited far to long to get fly hex (you want to be flying at 5th no later), you don't have improved familiar (that's almost mandatory for the witch).

Realistically, you have burned 4 feats to increase the penalty from ONE of your hexes by 2-3 points. Doesn't that seem rather expensive for what you are getting?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
scadgrad wrote:
Can someone explain how Tiny here is getting his poison onto his arrows? I have a rather handy Homunculus who would like very much to do this. I'm assuming that you lot are simply house-ruling that he can "fill up his quiver" with his own poison. If there is some other way, I'd like to know it. Chapter and verse would be great, thanks!

The same way you make anti-venom, you milk the poison producing creature.

Venom Milking

Then you dip the arrow into the venom and repeat.

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