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677 posts (770 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 aliases.


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I would rule that the 7th layer does not destroy the lava and more then a dome under the ocean would drain the ocean or that air is destroyed if cast outside. I do not think that it would destroy anything unless it is actually pushed into it.

Forbiddance prevents teleport but can be ignored by spellbane. I would trade gate for it. The duration is long enough that it can be kept always on. PCs could use this to freely teleport in the lair.

A wizard who cast spell bane and targets wall of force, prismatic sphere, forbiddance, and private sanctum is immune to all the magical protections in the lair.

A second casting that targets antimagic zone, dispel magic, greater dispel magic and mage's disjuntion will make the first effect undispellable.

A third casting should target teleport, dimdoor, plane shift, and limited wish. This negates any spell he can cast to move.

Form of the dragon 3 grants fire immunity. This can probably be done with a lower level effect but it rubs his nose in so I like it.

Freedom of movement lets you move through the lava.

Ride the waves grants a swim speed.

UMD a bead of karma, orange ioun stone, varsian tattoo (universal), gifted adept (wish), and spell specialization (wish) will add +9 to the caster level of any spell cast with wish.
Spell resistance cast through limited wish make grant SR 41 witch makes the bearer immune to all spells cast by any creature in the encounter.

Wish to cast control winds will remove the smoke in a 40 plane around you but the creatures high up will be still be hidden by it.

Wish invisibility purge will strip the dragon of that defense any where within 145 feet.

Contingency plus emergency force sphere grants nice physical protection.

Mind blank keeps the dragon from being able to divine what I am doing.

Assume an 8th level slot is always in use to keep mind blank going.

End of Day 1: Spellbane x3 as above and contingent emergency force sphere triggered to activate if dragon about to attack me physically.

Day 2. Cast all of the above spell except to deal with everything in the lair. The spell resistance has the shortest duration at 29 min.

The wind speeds prevent archer and Eyrines can not fly in the area at all. The Vavakia can teleport into the area and remain in place against the winds but the demon only has 35 percent chance of being able to hover near until its next turn and it will need to make that check again if it going to full attack.

In order to use their breath weapon or physical attacks they will teleport into range. This grants the wizard a an action against them. Banishment should be able deal with both of the them at the same time if they both attack at the same time. Better have several memorized just is case.

3 9th level spell slots have been used on wish plus several lower level ones. A 20th level wizard will have either 2 or 3 left depending on his int.

So far only 3 feats have been used and very small amount of WBL to increase cast level has been used. The dragon's spells and breath weapons have been made useless. The contingent force sphere will protect against a physical attack.

With Elf plus 2 more feats gets one close plus the caster level items gets the caster level checks on SR up to a 31. This enough that the banishment is not a roll and the dragon only requires a 2 to cast through.

Once the dragon attacks and you know where he is you could time stop and prep a several casting of dazing ball lightning or disjoin the area and all spell effect on the dragon. No more contingent teleport. If the rod of absorption is still is functioning a quickend dispel magic from 25 level caster suppresses it.

After disjuction you could gate in a an angle to beat the dragon senseless

Since he can not flee by magic while close to you or at once disjoined a wall spell might be in order over the entrance.

A couple of solars should do the trick. A greater quicken rod get them here in 1 round.

Several feats remain and much money.

I like to reward players who have very high perception.

I would let them find a trap door under a rug, under a desk, in a dark room, down a hallway, around a corner and through a stone wall 5 feet thick.

Each factor adds to the DC but if they PC some how had +105 to his perception he might be able to pull it off.

I would let 1 min a the door have at least an chance to find everything but many things will be so hard to find as to be practically impossible.

Once a skill is goes beyond +20 you are into the land of superpower and this should be taken into account. Maybe you can map the dungeon with a whistle and some echos.

I would love some support on what you can do with -20 penalty or -50 or even a -100 penalty.

Where does the dragon sleep?

How does he get his tribute into his lair?

I assume the plantar really hate the dragon and will not do anything that he does not have to. Does the plantar have to raise an alarm if it detects a foe? Will it willing a fail a save against banishiment?

Thinking of plan where you get brought into the lair with the tribute. Maybe as an earth elemental or meld with stone.

Once in wait till asleep and coup de grace.

A 5th level fighter archer can easily have a +11 to hit. If he has far shot and rapid shot he can fire two arrows at +0 every round at 10 range increments. They may not do much against guards but crew has a fairly low AC.

true strike plus cannon equals long range accuracy.

Fly over ship and drop 100 alchemist fires.

flaming sphere

wall of fire in front of the ship

If the wizard is a summoner I would consider a bard. All those summons would benefit from bard song and the magus and archer would not mind a bit either.

Sorry, got sick and was not able to work on these but for my first CR 5 ship I think I am going to stat up a 6th level 5 sorc with fireball, flaming sphere, and magic missile as spells known.

Magic missile may not hurt the ship but it can put a long range sting on some of the PC or crew. The other two spells will start fires and damage a ship a fair. bit. I would rule that a rigging takes full fire damage while hull sections take the normal half.


Makes sense, I am hoping that Fire as She Bears will help with that.

Still a work in process but I figure if i can come up with a table that has
3 each CR 5-8
2 each CR 9-11
1 each CR 12-15

that will be enough to get to the end of skull ans shackles when combined with monsters, derelict ships, hazards and small local shipping.

I think I like 8-4-1. Some crew might better then others and get double or triple shares.

I am thinking of removing much of the wealth from the non sand box elements but they are the way to gain levels. Pure piracy may be lucrative but since it does not advance the story much then no exp there. This will encourage them to do both things.

If they spend to long in the sandbox the story will come to them. If they do not sandbox they will high level but cash poor.

I like your plunder system. Valuables would be function equipment and weapons and armor. Masterwork and magical items are best sold on their own as will be many are objects.

I am not sure they will want UC stuff but it makes sense.

I am running a game that will last 2 or 3 sessions of 1.5 hours each. When I have done this before PFS stuff has worked well

I have greatsword fighter
Healbot cleric
super ninja (stealth is +43) goblin rogue TWF
Paladin rogue (very odd character)
catfolk sorc (very un op)

They in the great lodge right now but most anything will do.

Side missions are used but usually I just pick 1 or 2 factions and give those missions to the whole party.

The players are very silly and fun detail goes over better then hard encounters.

Just finished song of the sea witch.

An archer with far shot and vital strike as well magic items to help with range could pick of crew for a long time.

6th level sorc could lunch several very painful fireballs.

A bank of 1st level warriors with crossbows could do a number of the crew from fair distance.

Many merchants may heave to and let trained marines deal with boarders but this would rely on builds that can put down many boarders at once.

Large polearm fighter with combat reflexes.

Sleep spell

color spray

I figure even a pair of 9 pound cannons on the rear of a cargo ship will be able to to fire off many shots in the time it take the PCs to close on the ship. If they take a -18 penalty they can shoot out 110 squares.

Give the mate who fires the cannons exotic weapon prof cannon and far shot and naval gunner. His penalty will only by a -11. This can go to +9 before with true strike. On top of the +9 he gets his BAB and dex.

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I am using FaSB in my Skull and Shackles game. I am going to want ships for the PCs to pirate. The AP provides a few but many of them are traps or otherwise not a merchant and guards.

House rules:
If maneuverability drops below clumsy, reduce speed by 1 instead.
Rigging only weighs 1000 pounds, this makes light loads bigger with a small impact at the higher end.
Plunder, loot and swag cost 1000 GP and sell like plunder but weigh 5 tons, 1 ton and 500 pounds respectively. Most common gear can be turned into a pile of swag.

Most long distance ships be at least 6 six with a broad hull and made of reinforced oak. 6 is the smallest a ship can be while both broad and reinforced and still move while heavily loaded. Most ship carry a medium load at speed of 4 while carrying 10 plunder.

What I need to to is work out list of everybody who might sail through or past the Shackles and some interesting defenses for the boats. I want each boat to be CR 5-15 with most being in the 5-8 range. Some may be convoys with frigates to guard them while others may be a huge cargo ship and escorts.

Cargo carries:
Aspis Consortium
Taldor (Minor)
Thuvia (Minor)
Osirion (Minor)
Tian XA (Minor)
Everybody else (Rare)

Thank you so much.

I just realized the 108000 pounds is not 10 plunder but a mere 5. This make the ship itself the most valuable thing to steal by far.

Since FaSB ships carry less I think I will go with 3 class of plunder.

Plunder 5 tons 1k GP
Loot 1 Ton 1k GP
Swag 500 lbs 1k GP

Since swag is 2 GP to the pound and PCs sell things for half in general then anything that cost more the 5GP/pound is worth selling individually. That number could easily be 10 or 20 GP to the pound since the price for plunder is a bulk price and not per item.

Most equipment, arms, and armor would be swag and it would be nice to just make a pile of it all and sell instead of selling 100 cutlass and 100 sets of leather armor just call it 2 points of swag.

Maybe a rule that on a day in port they can sell 1 unit of pluder, loot, or swag. Or they can sell 5 individual items.

Just realized the the math in the character advancement table is weird. The amount need to from one level to the next to does not expand by a the same percentage each level. I think this may connected to the exp/encounter.

A CR+2 is always double a CR encounter and CR+1 is right in the middle. This leads to 50% more exp to add one to the CR at some levels and 33% at others.

Not sure if the character advancement table is designed to always need 20 APL encounters to level.

Weird that the 20 APL encounters will net you more the 10 APL+2 encounters.

Thank you guys. I am not sure the table in the gamemastering section works. I am not sure what value to use on taku's table, I think the last one.

If I have this right a level 5 party of 4 will need 32k (23k-15k=8k x 4 PCs) exp to level.
If they only face CR 5 encounters they will need exactly 20 encounters (32k/1600).

20 CR 5 encounters would award 31k GP witch is 7750 GP each. This far more the 5500 expected gain on the WBL tables. Is the extra 2275 GP expect to be consumed on other things by the PCs or monsters?

IS there a table somewhere that will let me calculate how much treasure should be awarded with each encounter or for a set amount of exp?

I know that treasure does not need to correlate exactly with the encounters and I can calculate how much the party should pick up per level.

I also know that the awards for several encounters can be in one place after several encounters.

It would be nice to have this info because I often like to create a string of encounters that will only get 1/3 of the way to a level or whatever.

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I am going to be using Fire as She Bears instead of the SnS ship rules. I figure that a standard cargo ship will be 6 hull sections, 5 rigging sections, broad, and made of reinforced oak. A ship this size can carry 175 tons but will probably limit itself to about 100 tons. A ship of this size has crew of 33 but will double it to 66 so that it can run 24 hours a day.

Assuming that the PCs take the ship and all of its resources that could amount to 17k for the ship, 10K for the plunder, and 5k for the crew. That 32k. Adding gear and ransom for officers plus a few cannons or other useful ship gear we can easily approach 40K for a single cargo ship.

Giving up a single point of plunder for crew is not enough.

I would willing to say that a cargo ship that did not have trap or other surprise waiting would be an ideal encounter and would be considered a triple treasure as such but even so I do not know know how much treasure that would be for CR 6-8 encounter.

The opposing crew and cannons will not count towards the CR since they are countered by the PCs crew and cannons but officers and guards would build up to a CR 6-8.

I need to figure out the crew share should be in order to bring the treasure back into line to what is expected for an encounter of this difficulty.

Other things that ranks can buy:

Marine: Each rank allows the crew member to occupy .5 extra crew for purposes of either boarding or repelling foes. 10 crew with 1 rank in marine may occupy 15 opposing crew members. Max 4

Gunner: Each rank adds .5 to cannon attack rolls. Max 4 ranks (+2 to hit)

If magic is used to buff the crew add 1 rank of marine for every 2 levels of spells used. The spell must effect the entire boarding party. Prayer plus bless works nicely. Every 2 points of inspiration (captain or bard) also adds 1 rank in marine. A boarding party with pray, bard song, haste, and bless is going to be able to take a crew vastly bigger then itself.

Neat idea to include some treasure ships.

Nice map Feros, I think I would want to pull the shackles out to about where you have the F in Fever Sea. Still a gap merchants can go through with out having to slow down but if even one kracken or Thalassic Behemoth reside in the gap I think merchants would go through the shackles instead.

Three to five encounters on the way up plus the trogs and one more on the way home would be a full day for many parties.

2-3 bull Hippos guarding a herd of cows could be interesting. One does not want to provoke the whole herd.

A young dire croc is CR 7

Hungry Piranha swarms might attack the boat but i do not see how they could get into the boat.

I think I want to make the island chain span about 1000 miles. The would involve making all the gapes about 4 times wider. I think that can work.

Thank you.

So that really is the only map out there that gives any indication. Pain in my butt.

TPing mules is not that different the casting raise dead or regeneration for someone. The point is they meant as spells for hire. They might balk at transporting catapults into besieged castle but why would they mind a day trip so some other city?

I am looking for a ball bark figure but he world map is hard to figure so I am having trouble even taking a guess.

Base on a thread about making the shackles the size of the Caribbean. Instead of stretching them in all 4 directions I was thinking of extending then out to Azlant.

Any one know how far it is from port peril to Azlant?

I was thinking they make great a great pirating area because ship have to anchor at night and go slow during the day due to all of the hidden reefs other things that will wreck your boat.

I am using the FaSB rules that let boats go faster then 2MPH but I would require a knowledge geography DC 20 + 1/.5 MPH over 2 they want to go to get through the shackles. Failure will damage the below the waterline location.

Let me know what you populate the river with.

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of a trog shaman leading some faithful in ritual to honor their fallen god.

If they manage to skip some encounters on the way up river they will be waiting when they come back down. Animals should be shippable in my opinion.

According the rules for settlements there are plenty casters that can cast these spells. Every large town should have access to purchasable 5th level casting. To me that speaks of at least a few casters on each side of the arcane/divine line.

How many settlements are there in the inner sea with more then 2k residents?

Kain, you are so right about the setting being and issue.

Thank you all for this great discussion, I see so much possibility in many of these ideas for future stories.

kudaku said wrote:
Excepting external house rules or GM intervention, there is, to the best of my knowledge, nothing present in Golarion that justifies a shipping market that is not dominated by teleportation magic.

For this is the big issue. TP is best hub to hub and ships/caravans would handle local trade. A ship that stops off at every town along the way might well be better.

The main reason I brought this up in the first place is Skull and Shackles. My players will ask why trade come through that area at all instead of TPing around. I think I can justify trade routes through the area with other Cheliaxian colonies farther south and trade with Tian XA choosing this path since most Shackles pirates will ransom a ship and crew back while the other route goes past Neb/Gex and slave pirates.

No that I have thought about adding in a superstition against TPed goods solves that aspect of things.

I can The Aspis Constorium killing a wizard that tried to steal their business. On the other hand they may simply take 90 percent of what the wizard would make on his own the wizard would still be fat and happy with all those lovely gold pieces. He would not even need to bother with logistics. Just show and cast spell then wait till the next load is ready and cast again to come back.

Also your carrying capacity's are way to low. If he can bring 4 medium creatures he can bring 1 huge creature. A mastodon with +2 belt of str, a heavy lift belt and mule back chords cost 11k i think once you change around the slots to work on it. That think can carry 115 tons. If that is to exotic for your tastes use two advance horses with the same magic items. The two horses carry half as much and cost more to set up but will still be better then a ship.

I would not predict a trade network based on teleport circles because of the level of the spell and the desire to keep a monopoly on it. On the other hand the idea that cheliax could feild 10 12th level casters to handle all of its long distance trade is not all far fetched.

How many 9th level casters would you get in a per million people in country and way? I am not sure what the population of Cheliax is but cities alone are about 300,000. If we assume that that is 5 percent of the total we will end about 6 million all together. Somewhere up thread some said that about 1 in 300000 would be able and interested in doing teleport trade. That gives Cheliax about 20. They can move as much as 500 ships. I think that would be enough for all of that nations international trade.

I like this idea. The PCs could make a heal check on some dead fish they find and realize that they were poisioned and knowledge nature check to realize the type and that the beast is dead.

I would leave the stench aura but make it nauseate instead of sicken up close. If one is within 90 feet then must save or be sickened.

If Rickety has a scroll of neutralize poison he could give that to the party and have them use it to defuse the corpse. Decompose corpse would also do the trick and cleric or druid will be able to cast it easily. Many other classes have access to it so that could work as well

Shrink item and animate dead would allow the corpse to moved easily.

Guard the corpse with a band of troglodytes or globster.

I would put the corpse about 8 miles up river because that distance will be easy to cover by boat in a day but difficult to do by foot in a trackless jungle. Give the river a slow current of .5 miles per hour. The trip will take 8 hours upstream and 4 hours back down. The rowers will have to make forced march checks for 4 hours or they will have to camp in the jungle.

One way to discourage overland traffic would to tell the players (knowledge nature check) that swarms do not like the middle of the river.

I will grant you that the magic item pricing is off. Removing the boots or teleportation just means you actually need the caster to do the act instead of an item. Even without muleback cords a mastoadon with ant haul carries alot. Just cast any haul instead of using the item.

Dreamcast is not orders of magnitude better then other things in its generation.

Vaccines are not universally accepted but they are pretty wide spread. Solar powered cars are not yet cheaper then regular cars but when they are they will be adopted pretty fast. Fighting war, hunger and global warming are needed but make no one money so they are not done.

You are right about the huge movements stopping forward progress, that it why superstition is better then a guild war for stopping the teleporting merchant.

In general progress wins out it just takes a while.

Makes the most sense might take a while to catch on but it will eventually unless the entire population is against it. That is why I like superstition as a reason for boat trade.

My mans promise is going to be 5 locations long with a split location for the castles. In my game a broad hull is 25 feet wide so that is close enough to the 30. She is also made of reenforced oak. This gives her a cargo capacity of 87.6 tons. I do not want their first ship to all that good. I am sure the will want to capture an escort vessel ASAP.

going to have to dig it strowrack for that other stuff.

While circles requires very rare casters, most towns could do teleportation. Assuming a town needs 20 or less ships on average to handle their trade that is enough. Teleportation is not ideal for distances less then 600 miles so ship would still make short hauls the kind of trade that goes through the shackles is long distance and teleport would definitely be better.

How does Kirth handle teleportation in a way that makes castles make sense?

Wow, i had no idea what I would be starting with this thread. Thank you all for participating. The main reason i brought it up at all is because I am going to be running skull and shackles soon and since pirates raid commerce my players will want the commerce to make sense.

I mentioned it up thread but the solution that I am going with is superstition. Teleported goods will make you sick, will not work, or are rendered valueless in the eyes of the common man. Most people above 2nd level know that there is nothing to the superstition but most bulk goods need to be used be low level NPCs who just will flat out refuse it.

This needs no house rules and allows freight to be teleported when dramatic but stops it from becoming the economic system. A wizard might be able to get around the superstition in time but it is not worth so they do not bother.

When I design encounters I just an exp budget. To figure out your EXP I would simply add the exp off all creatures and divide by the number of PCs. Giving the style in witch they were presented I would want to add in bonus exp but there are no rules for that.

While many good ideas for what would happen if wizards tried to set this system up I still think that it would happen since it so much more efficient and safe then long sea voyages.

Local trade and short distance trade would still be useful and a trips of less then 600 miles in length would be cheaper if not faster then using teleportation.

Still Tian Xa to the inner sea is better with teleport by far and Chelex to Garund is well worth a teleport.

What might be the best answer to this issue is superstition. If people refuse to eat teleported food or build with teleported materials the wizard guild will not be able to sell his trade goods. Make it a DC 11 knowledge arcana check to know that nothing is wrong with teleported stuff and the vast majority of the populace will have nothing to do with it.

It would be like GE crops in today's world.

I was wrong about using a dinosaur to carry you stuff but a mastodon is only 2000 GP and only 3 points lower in str. 6k in a saddle of giant strength and a 12th level caster allows you to move 130 tons with 2 ton left over to build the cargo pod itself. This still about 20x as efficient as a ship.

I like the idea of shipowners going hay you can cast teleport now and actually thought of moving cargo. Here is 50k to do nothing. If you try we will hire other to kill you.

@andreww: One caster could connect every major city on the globe in less then a year.

Why would the dino have to wear the boots? If the handler wears them he can bring the dino along.

Someone did point out the major flaw in this though, CL 24 is need to bring gargantuan creature. When I read the spell I thought it said 1 medium creature per level.

Replace the dino with a mastodon and belt giant strength +2. This costs 2k less then the dino and would be easier to assemble. Animal feed is cheap but we already paid for a clear spindle so we do not need to feed it.

The 1 point loss in str is made up for by an extra 200 miles of range. This only costs 200 GP from the mage.

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Sailing ship
Ship cost: 10k
Carrying capacity: 150 tons
crew 20
Speed 50 miles/day
Cost/ton 15ton/k
Cost/day 40 GP
trip time 40 days
trip cost 1600 GP

Brachiosaurus: 9k GP
Heavy lift belt (saddle): 2k GP x2
Mule back chords: 1k
clear spindle: 4k
total: 16k
carrying capacity: 240 tons
crew 1 + spell casting
speed 2000/day
cost/ton 15ton/k
cost/day 10th level teleportation x2= 1000 GP + 10 GP animal handler

The setup for teleprotation carries freight just as well as ship (better as zombie) and costs less to cover the same distance. On top of that it is 40 times faster and much safer.

Before you say that 10th level casters are hard to come by, boots of teleportation would pay for themselves in less then two months. I know the higher caster level would cost more but reducing the uses per day would drop in more then the increase.

One pair can replace 40 ships and 1 mage could make 7 pairs in a year.

So why would merchants risk ships when magic would be available and it is 40 times better and almost risk free.

Since there would be a 3 percent chance of not landing on target you could just leave the 3rd charge on the boots.

Just realized that I did the math for crew wrong. A sailing skill of +5 should get 7.5 GP a week or 1.5 a day. If it is assumed that food is taken out of pay that drops it to 1 GP per day.

1 SP = 5 HP and -1 to any skills they help to perform.
1 GP = standard sailor
1.5 GP = Rank 1
2.5 GP = Rank 2
4 GP = Rank 3
6 GP = Rank 4
9 GP = Rank 5

A standard sailor has 10 HP and adds nothing to their officers skill checks. Each rank may add either 4 HP or +1 to commanding officers skills. They can add to Knowledge (geography, nature, engineering), craft (carpenter), survival, perception, heal, or profession (sailor). They may also take a bonus to reflex for fire fighting or +1 to hit with cannons. HP has a max of 30 while a all other bonus may go as high as +3.

A mate or surgeon must at least 5 crew following him and they must all have the bonus to the skill. The navigator uses the average of all crew members manning each location of the ship. The captain use the average for the entire ship's compliment unless he is acting like a mate.

A crewmen who brings a +0 has total mod 1 or more in the skill while the landsman can be assumed to have nothing useful at all.

If the crewmen grants a +1 to a skill that means that he has a mod 5-7, +2 means a mod 8-10, while +3 equals 11+. Crewmen do not like following officers less skilled them themselves. They know you are less skilled if your mod is 3 less then their own.

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