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1,154 posts (1,247 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 aliases.


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Just because he hands out team work feats will not mean he is a slouch in combat. I thinking high AC and saves and moderate damage. A caviler with challenge and mounted charges does not need all that much to scary for the PCs.

If he just helps with teamwork feats that will be enough to make him of value to the PCs. When he turns on challenge and charges he might very well one shot a PC. At that level this not a bad thing.

Okay, that makes huge difference. Since he might be fighting as ally to the PCs we need a character that is can fight in several battles a day. Also as and ally we do not want any thing that will overshadow the PCs.

Can we go with Cavilier instead of fighter so we can grant teamwork feats to PCs? If not I think a Tactician fighter makes a lot of sense. Good teamwork feats that will help the anyone are lookout and swap places. Outflank is great for melee combatants.

I know about the mastadon but I am trying to get into the millions of pounds. I feller that can carry 16957 tons. I want to teleport that. I think I can get it even higher.

Windwalk is even faster and really thematic for a flying ship. 1400 miles a day is not to shabby.

Boon companion adds 4 levels one AC and can be taken once per AC. Beastrider (half orc feat) adds nice options to mounts and adds 2 their level. An oracle can add more levels with favored class bonuses. Inquisitor can get a full level mount and AC. Animal ally gets you a AC and then you can take and AC class to get 2 levels per level.

I built a character that can have 5 level 20 ACs at level 20 but some rules might be in question on that one.

What would happen to all the stuff in the ship when it is polymorphed?

Enchanting the ship would work but there are no rules for it.

The ship will be animated anyway so call construct works. Gonna be hard to teleport yourself at the same time.

I think that the wayfinder of the stars can pull it off but I am not sure.

I could definately do that but I will need rules for that stuff eventually since my PCs will will want to make a kingdom and be the government. Not sure how much I want to limit that.

I usually DM but when the campaign starts the first session is character building all together. My group like the teamwork feat. In my last campaign we had a caviler. others made choices to help the cav get his charges off more easily.

Pathfinder is one of my favorite games for an action RPG. I find that it does things other then combat poorly. In other systems you can have character who is terrible at combat but is yet the most powerful character in the game. You can not do that in pathfinder. I am okay with all of that because when I run or play PF I want combat.

The problem is two fold. I want there to be a world that makes sense in front to of the rules. This is more for me as a DM. As a player I will eventually ask questions of the DM as to why things are not the way I would expect. If there is not a good answer it hurts my fun. I would actually be okay with the game having no economic model at all bust since it does I want it to make sense.

As far as fun story lines goes being a noble can be fun but not if the rules for managing your holdings make no sense. In a world that follows PF rules those rules need to address magic. If they don't then the game will break when PCs try and use magic.

The other problem is when one player feels marginalized because his concept can not be as useful as another. This can be fixed by a gentlemens agreement from that casters, upping martials or nerfing casters. I say up martials.

The negotiation with the vamps sounds fun. Getting the spawn into position can be often easy but a few times they run into more then the bargained for. Spend little time on the milk runs.

I think that a single spawn will almost never have much impact on a small town or larger. Against smaller settlements they may be able to enslave the whole village but it may burn out much of time since they do not really know what they are doing.

If the spawn is not controlled the bad kingdom could simply pay it to work for them. And to give over any info it has.

The closest thing we have to adventures in the real world would be special forces. In a world with monsters their would be more call for them.

People who are adventures should be seen as nuts.

Waitstaff and washers would fall into unskilled labor. If it is skilled they are doing the kings laundry or waiting tables at the nicest of restaurants. Those are the kinds of jobs that people who can not afford and average lifestyle.

Maybe they are adventures because they want to make more then 1sp a day and they could not an apprenticeship.

How bad would it be to limit casters to spells of level X. Highten spell is a free feat and those higher level slots can be used for metamagic.

To many it feels like a fighter is a wizard limited to 1st level spells and metamagic despite having 9th level slots.

To add tiered power to things other then spells we could add skill exploits and BAB effects into feats.

If you have X ranks in acrobatics then instead check getting you the roll in feat you jump check-10 squares. This is same at 12 but 14 now gives you 20 feet and 16 gives you 30.

If you have 10 ranks in perception you can close you and use blindsight. All perception checks while doing so are made -20.

If you have 17 ranks in diplomacy you can spend an hour with some one to use dominate monster on them. Check -50 will save to negate.

BAB +17 power attack.
Split mountain: Make an attack roll against a natural feature. X DC feature is split into to similar features. Any thing on the feature is subject to the earthquake spell.

Do we really have problem a 17th level fighter killing the entire orc tribe with one swing of his axe that cleaves a mountain in two?

So that one might be to big an area but why something similar It might take him 30 swings to get through a mountain but so what.

To be fair the teleportation thing is more my beef.

On the level of labor the only thing that needs to change is what is required to be a skilled labored. Instead of craft being untrained it should be trained. DC 10 can be done in trained skills with no ranks so basic crafting is still covered. Require a +5 modifier to engage in skilled work. A first level character with skill focus, a trait and a rank can still do it but it is much less common. Skill focus represents apprenticeship and many a peasant would give up their life savings to get their kid one. Also means a guy with an 18 and rank can also do it.

As to crop failures: they will happen as part of plot.

Eltacolibre I like what you saying about who has high power items.

If I went with level+5 that would make it to easy to find a low level guy who can use a world changing item. Many of the ones I see are around level 9. I do not want a 5th level NPC to be able to use. Those things need to be 1 in 100,000 rare.

Also I like PF because its setting material is great. The APs a generally well done. I find the system easy to run. It is far more balanced then many other rules heavy system. RIFTs and GUPRs are not even worth a discussion of balance.

Shadowrun is imbalanced but is at least mostly balanced with niche. I can not see combat build that can out face the face or hacker that can do combat that a street sam.

In mage I can not thing an arcanum where a 4 in x is better the 5 in y.

I think equivalence is good as long as it does not lead to sameness.

An example of giving a nice thing to the martials is 7 league leap. I would love for an ability like that to come online like around 9th. maybe a little later.

What about an ability that let someone hold their breath for min/hour/days instead of rounds?

What about leaps that take you to the 5th story of the building? Okay so some monks can pull this off.

What about giving knock to rouges?

Find the path to rangers?

Legend lore to investigators?

None of this has to work like the spell per say but a similar ability that works as well would be nice. And if that means that these feel to similar to wizard then maybe some of this should not be available as a spell.

Not a bad way to handle it at all.

The reason for rule though is not about what the PCs have access to. I actually want to write the rule in a way that has little to know impact on the PCs.

I want there to be a rules based reason why kingdoms do not use lyres of building to raise cities, boots of teleport to ship things, and wands for fireball for defense.

If something about these items makes them harder to use then kingdoms cannot simply build items in quantity. That makes PCs more special and valuable instead of less.

Would level+1 +1/4 levels work?

I can see being more lax on consumables other then wands. Not that 3rd level wand really affordable in a 3rd level party.

Do PCs often buy weapons or RoPs or CoRs at a CL higher then themselves? Would it be bad if they could not?

I really do not have much problem with a wizard who can raise a castle overnight. I do not mind the bard doing it with lyre. I do not mind fighter making a new river with a decanter. I do not mind a 9th level character dominating trade given region or continent.

I do mind when a government can easily do this 100 times just because they have money. Limiting magic to the powerful makes worlds make sense to me but I do not want to make restriction that will hurt common choices made by PCs.


Are items commonly acquired with a CL higher the level?
Other then pearls of power I am not sure.

If PCs could not use items with a higher CL then their HD how large an impact would this have on the game?

I can see letting weapons and armor be less restricted and no restrictions at all on scrolls or staves.

The main reason for this is keep magic items from feeling like tech. If a government can afford items and have low level NPCs use them it can lead easily to industrialization through magic.

Boots of teleport, lyres of building, and decanters of endless water can easily change the world if available in quantity. Governments can build them for about 1/4 cost using the downtime and crafting rules. These items would be far less useful if you needed CL Hit dice to use them.

The lyre as a 6th level item might need to change but if we put it at 9 like the fabricate spell then none of these can be casually used if NPC classes are limited 6.

@Coriat: I did not grasp what you were saying in the other thread. You are quite correct. Now once the ship gets to a major city it would use teleports to get it goods to another major market.

I can see ships stopping by every little village along the way from Skull port to Sargava. I just do not see them taking a full load through the shackles.

I know I have been harping on this on boards for a while now. I am running SnS right now. My players are not as bothered by this as I am but as DM it is less fun for me to run a world that does not make sense. It is hard for me to justify the Tian Xa treasure ship on its way through. Still you have made the coastal ship make alot more sense. I am not sure you would use big ships for this though. I can only see it if you only off loading at big cities while buying up all the little stops.

Coriat: What advantages does it have that would account for their being a significant number of cargo ships sailing around?

I do not mean this as snark, if teleport trade and cargo ships both exist in the world that is fine.

Orfamy: You are correct but I think the rules should reflect why it is not easy for someone with a lot of money but only a few levels use magic to change to world.

Or change the demographics section so that we know dang well that most towns do not have access to 3rd level spells.

5th level characters are not that uncommon but 9th level ones are.

If you had to be 9th level to use boots of teleportation then many of issues go away.

Designer guy. Of course that just answer how it should be run and not what the rules actually say.

He has also made calls that are not useful.

I think a big part of the problem is the world most fantasy games are set in. Galorian is a good example of this and the APs reinforce it.

Boots of teleportation can be made by a 5th level expert and money. You can buy 5 ships for the price. 2.5 if you only pay the craft cost. 1.25 using magical capital and little more then half with focus overseer to buy capital at 1/4 instead of 1/2.

Using other magic to boost carrying capacity and this method of shipping is far far better then a ship. Yet the AP assumes enough merchant shipping for their to be a whole nation or pirates. Why ever would shippers who can easily afford teleport shipping and have no problems finding someone who can make it ever use a ship.

Passengers and exploration still need ships but why do they not fly?
A 5th level adept can craft a construct. Another can provide the CL. What level is need to get a CL 11. 8 is just a trait and feat.

Several solutions exist but published material does not even try an talk about them. It should.

Throwing out a few ideas that would make difference.
1. Make ships faster. 48 miles/day is well below historic ships. Columbus did 150.
2. Make ships carry more. I think that the devs based cargo on the Caravel instead of the carrack. These ships carried 5 times as much.
3. Have magic effect ships. An ant haul effect would go far here.
Permanent gust of wind tied to the ship. Extra dimensional holds.

The problem is that at some point it no longer feels like a tall ship with magic but a modern or futuristic cargo ship. Once we reach that point we need to stop or make cheaper to build and run more ships then to make one carry more.

Once we know what that point is me need to change the rules of magic so it can not out do a ship. Just some thoughts. Use any and all.

1. Teleport is 10 miles per CL instead of 100.
2. Teleport can only lift 100 pounds per CL
3. CL is a hard limit on magic items.
4. Make magic capital hard to stockpile.
5. Teleported raw materials and foodstuffs do not teleport well.
6. Require HD to equal CL to use a magic item.
7. ED spaces do not teleport well.

By SKR's interpretation you refers to the crafting team and not just the possessor of the feat. I guess scribe scroll is like dictation is that case. The scribe does not have to compose the story(spell) while the author does not hold the quill.

A hex like that is a good reason for a war.

How do you cast 10 times a day as 3rd level wizard?

Half orc Barbarian 2/Fighter [mutation warrior] 1/Cavalier 1
1. Mounted Combat 3 Spirited charge F Power attack C Amplified Rage
Ferocious Mount rage power Order of the cockatrice
Str 20 +4 rage +4 amplified rage +4 alchemical = 32 (11)

(1d8 +16 str +6 power attack +1 challenge +1 order)x3
85.5 on a charge

This bad build overall but really good at the one hit.

Orc bloodline for +8
Draconic blood for +8
Magical linage for free intensify
Spell spec takes you to CL 5
Some traits can get +1 CL for CL 6
How do you get the extra 2 caster levels?
Where are the other two damage coming from.

Retraining can get it. I think claws would get +8 str. Adopted half orc tusked will get the bite.

Str 18 Dex 18 Con 10 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 7

Human fighter (weapon master) 4
PBS/Precise/Rapid shot
Deadly Aim
Weapon Focus
Weapon Spec

+6/+6 1d8+11

2 less to hit then the above bloodrager
1.5 damage less then bloodrager
Less HP
DR acts twice

Any buffs get spread over two attacks so magic will make this build over take the bloodrager. No need for rage rounds.
Better AC

Taking a ship is stupidly easy with AoE spells. Fireball (ice subbed) will kill most of the crew. My PCs are not using that kind of spell and as long as they don't I will keep it out enemy hands.

This AP makes in almost silly not to bring NPCs with you. My party recruited the ghouls and plans to make a ghoul crew. I would let the players control the NPCs in combat while you control them out of combat.

Power attack for the badger makes some sense. Weapon focus never hurts.

I love this feat. Also remember that PC are supposed to win.

I would allow this feat to activate every time the breaking is what triggered an init roll. Even if the guards know that the PCs are comeing they may not know the exact moment that they are coming in.

If the PCs spend to long searching a room then this could happen to them.
They would get a perception check hear the guy about smash the wall but if they are stunned then they lose the surprise round even if they heard it coming.

Change the shape to 180 degree cone and yes the kool aid man can stun himself. No shaken for him though.

If some this started as new thing then yes it would change the world. Like the steam engine did in our world but more so.

Since teleport would be an old magic then the world should be already adjusted to it.

I would love to see a world that took all of the rules ramifications into account.

A few simply ways to help would be to make caster level a hard requirement that you could not get around. Another would be to reduce tport to 10 miles and greater to 100 miles per level.

Also the carrying capacity of a ship seams light.

I made a thread some time ago about teleportation and trade.
Some thoughts on it were that a mid-level wizard may not want to engage in trade or be so rare as to make Tport trade not a thing.

I just realized teleportation comes online a 5th level and an expert can do it. Actually you need 2.

The first expert gathers magic capital at a rate of 6/day for 25 GP each.
This is accomplished through focused overseer and skill focus (spell craft).

The second expert takes
1 Extra traits (Spark of Creation/Inner Beauty) [+4 craft,] SF (craft) [+3 craft]
3 Craft wonderous item
5 Master Craftsmen [+2 craft]

A bit of retraining is needed to do this but that does not cost that much.
5 ranks + 4 trait + 5 feat + 3 class= +17 take 10 for 27
Boot are CL 9 so DC 14 +5 for CL +5 for spell = 24 DC. This is before and mod. SF is not needed here.

Boots cost 49000 to buy or 24500 to craft. The trait lower this 23275 or 233 capital. That costs us 5825 GP to make them. They can teleport self plus 3 mediums partners.

4 muleback cords cost 500 GP and 4 heavy load belts cost 1000 GP to craft.

Find 4 20 str fellows who need a job. Each one can carry 3600 pounds or a total cargo of about 7 tons. The extra is for box they load the cargo in.

Assuming cargo flows in both direction they can make 3 trips a day or 21 tons a day.

Ships carry 150 tons. Since ships move 50 miles per day that means the boots are better on any trip of more then a week. We also save time on loading since that can done with box that the teleport does not need to be there to load.

I figure that if you pay that crew cost would be the same. The lifters are well paid since the price is split only 4 ways instead of 20. They do not steal because they are well paid for little work and they would like to go home.

Other advantages include not having to to a port. You only need to sell 7 tons of goods per stop instead of 150. Loading facilitys do not need to be fancy.

Grain is roughly 50 pounds to a cubic foot so a box with 3500 pounds would only need to be 5x4x4 to hold it all.

They either stack or you split 2x your level. Either way is quite good.

They would stack since they are different sources.

Unlike the helm it does not say that you can not. It says that you teleport as if you had cast teleport. If I cast teleport I can bring a few others with me.

The best solutions I have found so far are a wayfinder of the stars. My guess is that it teleports you an any willing creature touching you but it may still be restricted by caster level.

On the random resonance table for ioun stones number 87 allows the user to teleport 1/week. That would be slotless and easy to activate. Not sure how easy it would be to get that combination.

I am not sure a gate is big enough for a colossal creature. Creatures can squeeze but ruling that an animated ship can not would not be unreasonable. That would prevent a gate.

Magic would not work on animated object or mindless undead. Could work with an living being though so it is an option.

Shrink item will get no where near big enough for ship and would not shirk that cargo anyway. Could work on a boat.

The only thing I figure out is have the creature cast the spell itself since size does not matter for yourself. The problem is that most beings of this size can not use head or feet slots.

The main purpose of this would be to teleport a ship. A ship can be animated an then targeted with a spell but it is to big for teleport.

Would a wayfinder of the starswork?
Once per day, the owner can touch one of the semi-precious stones on the wayfinder of the stars to teleport her and any willing creatures touching her to a safe location on the indicated planet, as interplanetary teleport.

Does one get to pick the safe location?

Looking at the nation of Geb it seams clear that mindless undead can at least to farmwork. Since every person who dies is reanimated it would seam that having a large number of mindless undead is useful for civil engineering, construction, and farm work.

I am wondering basically if mindless things can supervised to the extant that using them as good as supervising unskilled labor.

Making a pot is a DC 10 craft check. Can you order something to make a pot? Can he do it if you are there to talk him through it? A lot of building a structure is grunt work. Can a mindless think be told to cut all these boards at the red mark?

I know there is going to be table variation in this generally I want to know if you can use them the same way you would use 1 sp a day laborer. They would be better due to tirelessness and str.

SoDs tend to be very effective in the games that I run when a PC builds around it. Often Mooks need a 17+ to save and BBEG need a 12+.

What if your highest level spells took a 1 round cast time and the next level down was full round casts? Normal after that.

Color spray would be almost impossible to use with a 1 round casting time but I can see a fighter carrying a wizard to the right spot to cast the spell from. Buffing would still be great but that really favors martials since they get the most from a buff most times.

Giving martials a boost up with easier move and full attack and looser FAQ ruling might be good thing. Do we want high level combats to be all rocket tag? This can be fun and is more so if all have rockets.

In the grand scheme of things I do not really think that martials need much help in a tactical sense. They need access to divination and transport and conjuration. I am not say these need to be magic but something that grants them narrative options.

On a different not I would love to see not using magic be rewarded. A high level fighter with no buff spells and no item can just laugh at puny magic that comes his way. Things that target HP work normally.

Maybe a bonus to saves or SR that is quite high but reduces by 1 per spell and item that you have. This bonus is reduced also by the level of your highest level spell slot.

I thought I saw somewhere that controlled skeletons can crew a ship. Not just from the skeleton crew spell but the stock ones. If this is the case they can help build a building. If not they can not.

Can a skeleton use tools? Construct?

Fighting fairly complex. One could argue that if they can do that they can do other task of equal complexity. Building a house under direct supervision is not more complex then fighting.

Think about this in terms of Vermin, constructs, ooze, and undead. If the answer is different for each; why?

We want our pet to go x spot that is no in sight.

Can we order them to walk ten miles then stop?
Can we order them to go to landmark?
Can order them to walk 10K steps? 3 steps?
Walk to the tree? The big tree?
Walk to x then then turn right and proceed to Y.

Basically it comes down to what level of judgement they have.
Is this judgement based on their wisdom? Their controller? Their base programing?

Vermin are mindless but can see to their own biological needs and even be trained to limited extent. Social vermin can communicate the location of food or danger. Hunters can engage in ambush tactics or tracking.

Can tasks of this level be given to other types simply with magic orders? Can they programed in at creation?

Can control be transferred? (Do what he says.)

Many GMs do not allow 3rd party stuff. That said if his will then that will solve the problem for him.

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