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Angel Mask

Master_Crafter's page

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Well, the cart would require that the character wheel the whole thing around like a wheelbarrow, with the one back leg possibly being stood upon when firing.

If you look at the historical weapon, it had a hook and two pins on the barrel. The pins were for bracket mouting on a device such as the one described, whereas the hook was to brace on the crenelations of a battlement.

All that said, 2d12, even multiplied by 4 for a full attack (8d12) doesn't even keep pace with many wizard spells that can easily pull out 25-40 d6, many of which go against touch AC or saves (also generally lower than AC, but often still dealing dmg on a successful save).

Granted, weapon special abilities can tip this scale, but it's still not quite OP IMHO, especially when you consider the investment involved. & if you don't like the cart you could always makethem vventure through passageways too narrow for it (but don't be surprised when they pick up an immovable rod as Froze_man suggested, above).


I would definitely agree with that house rule, & is indeed how we run things in our group with one small modification: difficult materials to work with increase the craft DC, which thus increases the risk of failure.

We also do not factor the cost of expensive mundane components into the time it takes to craft magical equipment, assuming those components (such as a masterwork weapon) it readily available. & if it is not, that component must be purchased or crafted separately.


I would agree that Hidden master is primarily a sight-based ability and that abilities such as scent might pierce it, as there is no real way of covering this up in PF save for a massive stench that would have to affect an area.

As for blind sight, I think that since this ability primarily detects upon sound it would also have a chance to pierce this ability. However, since a ninja likely does practice moving silently as well, I would still require a perception Vs stealth in this case, probably allowing the ninja to utilize the +20 stealth modifier, but also giving the creature with blind sight a +20 to their perception to offset.

Of course, all of this is technically house rules given the subsequent wording you've pointed out. But it at least seems to be a reasonable interpretation and is how I would probably run it at my table.


So, I noticed that you neglected to mention what level you were or what kind of budget you have to work with.

That said, you seem to be pretty focused on AC, and as far as that goes upgrading all of your AC items to +1 then +2, and so forth is usually the most economical way to go. As far as getting rid of the shield, if you have enough you can always go for a wand of shield, shield of faith, or a ring of force shield if you have the cash.

Alternatively, if you have a caster in the party you can chum up to, a minor ring of spell storing is not a bad idea. Just have them cast any extra shield spells into it at the end of the day. You can also use this tactic to effectively get a ring of true strike. ;)


The wonky part is when you start making items out of different, often expensive materials.

Take for instance making two spheres, one of iron, a notoriously hard metal to work with by many standards, and one of gold, a metal which can simply be melted down and cast into a mold.

The iron sphere costs, say, 10sp, while the gold one costs closer to 1000gp (10,000sp).

Although both have the same craft DC, it will take you at least 1000x longer to make the gold sphere you could melt down and cast into a mold over a cookfire than it would to make the iron one you would have to hammer into shape over an anvil.

Also compare that to the time it would take to make an ornate jewelry box (maybe 50gp) with complex inlays and a hinge. The box should have a higher craft DC by aproximately 5 points, but can still be made faster then the gold sphere for some reason.


@Boz, I think you need to reread the thread carefully. You are mistakenly combining two completely different lines of thought.

No one has suggested that cold iron armor should make you immune to weapon enchantments. However, you did say that cold iron should be impossible to enchant.

The logic followed that if anything that is cold iron is impossible to enchant, then neither cold iron weapons nor cold iron armor could be enchanted.

I then proposed an alternative whereby these could be enchanted, but at a higher cost and craft DC to create.

The only other crossover between weapons and armor which has occurred in this thread was another post by me proposing how a cold iron weapon might pierce through magical defenses without actually negating them altogether (lowering them incrementaly based on the weapon's enchantment).

No where, other than your last two posts, has there been any mention of cold iron armor making the wearer immune to weapon enchantments. Only that cold iron equipment itself, whether a weapon or armor, would be difficult if not impossible to imbue, depending upon your preference.

Edit: I apologize for any confusion. My previous response was based upon an assumption that there was a typo in the comment of yours to which I was responding.

I had interpreted it as "Who has ever mentioned cold iron eliminating weapon special effects?"

Note the lack of the word "armor" after "cold iron", and you might see my confusion, given the context of this thread.


I notice that people keep calling TWF a "trap", but for a class that gets the majority of their dmg from an ability completely separate from their weapon's base attack output, I'm not so sure I'd call it that.

While I have never, personally, elected to go much farther than the basic TWF feat (occasionaly splurging on TW Defense or Double Strike), I am quite fond of this on sneak attack builds.

Granted, a properly built fighter will easily match a fully stated rogue's SA on any single hit in a full attack, and probably beat it hands down using feats like the vital strike tree, but that is what they are designed to do.

However, having a realistic chance to get off your SA dmg more than once in a round, when it is likely over 60% of your dmg output is too good to pass up IMO.

That said, given the rogue & ninja's avg BAB, the -2 atk penalty is already a hit, making taking the Imp and Greater versions of TWF rather ineffective given the slim chance of landing one of these attacks with the cumulative -5 penalties for iterative.


The Boz wrote:
Who has ever mentioned cold iron armor eliminating weapon special effects? You're not making any sense.

Um, you did in your first post.

The Boz wrote:

I'd be all for this if there was another caveat: Cold Iron can NEVER, EVER be enchanted, either temporarily or permanently.

Also, it'd be neat if cold iron weapons had the ability to ignore spells such as Shield, Mage Armor, etc. Sadly, the game would need to have a good definition on what is an enchantment, what is an "improvement", and it's not in right now...

(Emphasis mine)

And ever since you have been arguing what counts as a magical enchantment.

This is the also the original post in which weapons were mentioned in this thread as well, tho the OP was originally about armor.

It's the third from the top. See for yourself.


For lower levels, flankign and vanishing trick will be your best friends. However, if you are not adverse to some feat intensive builds, there are other options.

Option 1 - intimidation.

Take weapon focus, dazzling display, and shatter defenses. You won't be able to get all of these till lvl 8, but intimidation is easy to pull off, especially if you go the extra mile and take the skill focus and persuasive skills for an extra +5 (+10 if you have at least 10 ranks).

If you are small you can always add in the taunt feat and focus in the bluff skill instead, or if you are big and muscley the intimidating prowess feat might be more your style.

Option 2 - improvised weaponry

Take catch off guard and improvised weapon mastery. You can easily keep a 1d4 base dmg (or better) improvised weapon with you data all times. The die type will increase by one step (d4-d6-d8-etc) and you will still benefit from a 19-20/x2 crit range, which can (so far as I'm aware) be increased to 17-20/x2 with improved critical (improvised weapon) as the imp weap mastery feat overrides the normal properties of your weapons instead of "doubling their crit range", though the effect is still the same. (Note; I could be wrong, but I do believe these actually do stack in this case.)

Of course, you will only be able to treat unarmed opponents as flat footed while wielding an improvised weapon, so you should specialize in either sunder or disarm maneuvers as well to use this to best effect. Sunder is generally more effective tho, especially if you are using an adamantine shovel to crack their weapon and deal the extra dmg straight to your opponent using greater sunder.

Option 3 - capitalize on one of the above

If you aren't adverse to dealing nonlethal damage you will love this one. Take the feats bludgeoner (at least if you are planning on using an improvised weapon), sap adept, and sap master. You will be able to deal nonlethal dmg with any bludgeoning weapon (most improvised weapons falling into this category), will get to roll sneak attack dmg twice, and get an additional 2 points of dmg per sneak attack die rolled. At lvl 20 that equates to 20d6 + 40 SA dmg (avg 110 dmg) before adding in weapon dmg or other bonuses such as from a high Str score.

The downside: all this damage is nonlethal, so creatures and characters with regeneration will heal it double time, in addition to any lethal dmg they would normally heal. Same goes for healing spells cast on any of your targets, which could bring them back in the fight pretty quickly. But then again, clerics capable of casting such spells should be your first targets anyway.


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The Boz wrote:
I never mentioned cold iron armor in any of my posts.

But that is exactly what this post is about: adding innately antimagical qualities to cold iron. So it doesn't really matter if you mentioned it or not if you are in this thread.

That said, the OP wasn't saying that cold iron would make magic impossible, or even cancel it out completely, just make it more difficult to use in certain scenarios (most specifically for casters jailed in a cold iron cell and for casters who were attempting to target opponents wearing cold iron armor).

Most of the following posts were simply elaborating upon the ramifications of such an alteration to the properties of cold iron, especially with respect to the added difficulty of even enchanting such items and what additional benefit cold iron weapons might provide.

If you were not ready to discuss these topics, that is understandable, but this is not the thread for you.


I would assume that if a single point of fire/cold dmg would remove it so would a minimum damage roll.

That said, I'd lean towards one point of damage per level of the spell (4 in this case) at least for melee attacks. 1 point should still suffice for fire/cold as the alone is specifically noted as being weak to these elementsts.

As for the whole "use your claw to scrape it off" I'd have to say this might be possible, but them you'd have to scrape it off your claw as well, likely by scraping your calw against a rough corner or surface. If the creature has 2+ attack/round they could even do so before taking a second round of con dmg, but they would deal at least 8 points of dmg to themselves (4 to scape it off with the claw & 4 to scrape it off the claw onto another surface).

That said, with a troll's regeneration, the prospects of doing this would hardly phase them, butany other creature is probably taking at least a -1 atk penalty for any attacks which require the use of that claw/limb. Still a +1 for the necro, just not quite as big of one.


Alcohol is a natural antiseptic, which would prevent bacterial decomposition. However, it would also soften tissues making them easier to tear if disturbed. Baring access to a scroll, however, this might be your best option. Not that I'm entirely sure where you will get a barrel of booze from in the middle of the wilderness.


Well, if we are to use strict "raw" as you propose it, we might as well say that the dispell effect only takes effect on those creatures who were present for the casting of the original unhallow spell but suppresses any affected items for a full year, as for it to affect any creatures or items which enter the area at a later point it would have to be recast.

This interpretation simply means that the spells hallow and unhallow are essentially useless given the 10 min casting times. Furthermore, unless all intended targets were present to begin with not even the inherent protection from good/evil effects are of any use as they cannot be "recast" on potential new targets as they enter the area of the unhallow. And if one of those targets should ever leave the area they are excluded permanently (as those effects cannot affect them once they exit, meaning that it must be "recast" on them when they reenter).

I'll at least agree with this, the spells hallow and unhallow need major clarification.


Yes, but compare the costs of a +5 cold iron weapon and other magical weapons.

Using the 25% markup this comes to 64.5k, or 77k using the 50% markup.

Compared to other weapons, that would be 50k for a +5 or 72k for a +6 (total enhancement including special qualities).

Even if the weapon could bypass mage armor, shield, and shield of faith (armor, shield, and deflection bonuses respectively), only the most dedicated witch hunters would bother with such an item, as very few creatures will have access to even 2 of these three effects, much less be reliant upon them when they could have access to dancing shields, rings of force shield, bracers of armor, etc.

Though, I wouldn't necessarily allow a cold iron weapon to function in such an all-or-nothing manner. I would rather suggest that a cold iron weapon pierces DR magic as though it were magic, regardless of enhancement, and reduces any magical AC bonus (from spells or enhancement bonuses, other than Dex based incidentals) by 1 point per point of enhancement.

That said, I'd have to revise my preference to the 50% markup, as it is a slight scaling benefit.


The anti magic qualities could simply make enchanting cold iron more expensive and labor intensive. It already costs an extra 2k to enchant, but if you really want to make it harder just increase the cost of enchanting it by 25-50% and increase any craft DCs by 5.

That would make a +5 cold iron armor cost an extra 6.25-12.5k, on top of the extra 2k just to enchant it, and increase the DC to make one from 20 to 25. The cost for a weapon would be an extra 12.5-25k. (I personally lean towards the 25% cost increase.)

The only abilities which might not be affected by this cost increase would be anti-magic qualities such as SR, spell turning, and dispelling.


Normally, yes a person and their equipment do count as one target, but you state yourself that dispel is an exception to this, as it can target equipment separately.

That said, I would not propose a single check against all items. Chances are that at least a few would continue to work, especially the higher level ones, and after 1d4 rounds a new dispel check would have to be made against the ones which are re-activating in order to keep them down.

Perhaps, for simplicity's sake (as it may end up being a lot of rolling) only one check every 1d4 rounds vs each effect. This would capture the "intermittent functioning" effect that I would presume an unhallow/hallow-dispel is meant to simulate. Weaker items probably wouldn't work most of the time, while stronger items would function most of the time. Still not as powerful as an anti magic field, but potent in it's own right. (Unhallow = spell level 5; Anti magic field = spell level 6)


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Actually, I kina like this concept. As is everyone either wants mitral or adamantine equipment, but no one bothers with cold iron unless they are going to be up against a bunch of fey.

That said, I'd adjust what you've proposed to the following:

Cold iron prison DC and to cast = 25 + spell level. (They might get off that can trip, but not a polymorph). This can possibly be increased by increasing the sheer amount of cold iron used in, say, the foundation to siphon off any magical energies.

Cold iron armor has no decrease in AC, but gains an SR equal to it's AC bonus + 10 and doubles its arcane spell failure chance and gains a divine spell failure chance equal to it's normal arcane spell failure.

This means that cold iron full plate will be boss against lvl 1 casters (SR 19 vs 1d20 + CL1, only a 15% chance of success), but even with a +5 enhancement will be of limited use against higher level casters (SR 24 vs 1d20 + CL20, only a 15% chance of failure).

Enchanting cold iron already costs an additional 2k, which means that it is rather undesirable at early levels since it already costs double, but this gives it more desirability and flavor over all.

Of course, if you wanted to add in the Spell Resistance armor qualities, that could be slightly problematic. I'd have to rule that the SR provided by those qualities is simply increased by the armor's AC bonus.


The spell affects the entire area. I read this as "is cast upon everything in that area" which translates to "cast upon all possible targets in said area".

And look at that possible range of CLs dispelled again. The dispell check is 1d20 + CL9 (for the darkskull) vs a DC 11 + CL (for the spell effect) this means that to dispell a CL 1 spell you would have to roll at least a 3, and even with a nat 20 you can only ever dispell a CL 18. On a 1 or 2 you get nothing (10% chance of absolute failure).

And then you still have the effect of "wait for it" and your equipment at least is back up to full with no chance of being affected again unless you are forced to exit and re-enter.

Now, I could see that items might only work intermittently in the area of an unhallow-dispell, but to function without hindrance after only 6-24 seconds? It's really not that hard to stall for 30 seconds.

On the other hand, anyone with a bag of holding could theoretically strap the skull to their hand and "full attack" the pocket dimension. Spell effects don't cross planar boundaries, so each attack would subject all targets in the area to a new dispell magic for each attack. Give these to a monk and see how long your spells last.


As for the telepathy question, I would see no problem with a telepathic character using that ability to communicate with a willing intelligent item. However, no telepathic ability could force it to communicate unwillingly.

The way I'd rule it in some slightly more ambiguous cases, such as detect thoughts which is classified as mind affecting, is that this immunity functions as unbeatable SR (similar to most constructs), but like SR can be lowered if they are willing to accept an effect.

Therefore suddenly being able to communicate with an undetectable intelligence as in the case above might be a little unnerving, as it would seem to be an untethered consciousness at first. ;)


The CL of any magic item's spell effect is assumed to be the minimum CL to be able to cast that effect, as stated under the magic item creation rules. (Eg: spell lvl1 effect = CL 1; lvl2 = CL3; lvl3 = CL5, etc). The pricing for intelligent item powers reflects this:

(CL * Spell lvl * 2000 [continuous or use activated]) ÷ (charges/day)

Effectively the 2000 ÷ (charges/day) comes out to 400/daily charge, but if you wanted to make something unlimited you would just have to calculate it as 10 charges/day.

The reason that CLs are not listed for intelligent item powers is probably that intelligent items aren't so much meant to be crafted as to be found as part of a plot device or given out as part of a character's background.


The issue I have with only afhttp://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pqtw?Darkskull-and-Dispel-Magic#6ng one upon entering is that this means that should characters A and B both enter an unhallowed area with both a CL 2 and a CL 20 effect on each of them the following could occur:

Character A's CL 2 effect is dispelled, but their CL 20 effect continues to function unhindered so long as they do not leave the area. No big deal here. (Chances are that it wouldn't be dispelled before the encounter was over anyways as it requires a nat 20 roll [5% chance].)

But character B's CL 20 is miraculously dispelled and only has his CL 2 effect to keep him alive (whicn survived only because of a natural 1). Furthermore, if both are provided by magic items, that means that he just has to stand there for 1d4 rounds to get it back and his CL 2 effect is never affected.

Now, while I have no problem with another dispell check in 1d4 rounds to keep either of these effects down, that seems to make this effect extremely underpowered IMO.

(copied from a parallel thread)


The unhallow spell says that the attached "spell effect lasts for 1 year and functions throughout the entire site, regardless of it's normal duration or area of effect".

So while I see the argument about it targeting "creatures", in my view that portion of the text is simply a way to exempt certain spells from dispellation which are being utilized by specific creatures based on their alignment.

That said, it is also my view that, since dispel magic can only be used as a targeted dispel or counterspell and in this case affects all targets in the area, each valid target of that spell is targeted by a CL check to dispell it individually upon entering the field, instead of one check per character.

If the dispel check succeeds, the item cannot function within that area, and in the case of magic items is suppressed for an additional 1d4 rounds after leaving the area.

If the check fails the item may function normally, at least for a time, within the field. As for how long a time, I would say a new dispell check every round. After all, the skull only has a CL of 11, vs a DC of 11 + the CL of the effect or item, meaning that some effects simply will not be effectively dispelled without increasing the CL of the dark skull in some way, especially if it was cast by a character who managed some sort of +X CL via items (an ioun stone comes to mind) or feats (spell focus anyone).

Other ways exist to get around this as well, such as using your own dark skulls, as 2 unhallow effects cannot overlap.


Claxon, the issue I have here is that this means that should characters A and B both enter an unhallowed area with both a CL 2 and a CL 20 effect on each of them the following could occur:

Character A's CL 2 effect is dispelled, but their CL 20 effect continues to function unhindered so long as they do not leave the area. No big deal here. (Chances are that it wouldn't be dispelled before the encounter was over anyways as it requires a nat 20 roll [5% chance].)

But character B's CL 20 is miraculously dispelled and only has his CL 2 effect to keep him alive (whicn survived only because of a natural 1). Furthermore, if both are provided by magic items, that means that he just has to stand there for 1d4 rounds to get it back and his CL 2 effect is never affected.

Now, while I have no problem with another dispell check in 1d4 rounds to keep either of these effects down, that seems to make this effect extremely underpowered IMO.


The unhallow spell says that the attached "spell effect lasts for 1 year and functions throughout the entire site, regardless of it's normal duration or area of effect".

So while I see ED's argument about it targeting "creatures", in my view that portion of the text is simply a way to exempt certain spells from dispellation which are being utilized by specific creatures based on their alignment.

That said, it is also my view that, since dispel magic can only be used as a targeted dispel or counterspell and in this case affects all targets in the area, each valid target of that spell is targeted by a CL check to dispell it individually upon entering the field, instead of one check per character.

If the dispel check succeeds, the item cannot function within that area, and in the case of magic items is suppressed for an additional 1d4 rounds after leaving the area.

If the check fails the item may function normally, at least for a time, within the field. As for how long a time, I would say a new dispell check every round. After all, the skull only has a CL of 11, vs a DC of 11 + the CL of the effect or item, meaning that some effects simply will not be effectively dispelled without increasing the CL of the dark skull in some way, especially if it was cast by a character who managed some sort of +X CL via items (an ioun stone comes to mind) or feats (spell focus anyone).

Other ways exist to get around this as well, such as using your own dark skulls, as 2 unhallow effects cannot overlap.


I was considering requiring the leadership feat or something similar to "unlock" all the collection benefits of this item set.

The way I figured it at 20 the level (assuming no leadership modifiers) you can have a 14th level cohort with their own equipment (14 class levels and 185k of equipment). The equipment value could be subtracted from the final cost of the item set.

Another possibility is that, since you don't actually get another character to use you might even be able to decrease the final cost by up to double this amount to make up for "lost" cohort class levels/HD, and followers.

Would either of these be reasonable?


OK, so I am attempting to create an intelligent item set based on an old warforged druid character of mine. Basic concept is that when he was destroyed several of his components were made into magic items (a headband, shirt, boots, and gloves) which each maintained a portion of his consciousness.

I am designing the individual items to be intelligent (empathic only), each functioning as an individual magic item with one intelligent power. However, as the items are collected the intelligent powers and properties of the set are enhanced.

For example, each item starts out with one charge/day of a spell that is part of a spell tree specific to that item (beast shape for the shirt, plant shape for the boots, etc). When a new item is acquired both items advance that effect by one spell level (BSI becomes BSII, PSI becomes PSII, etc), and the set gains 2 charges/day that can be used for either effect (instead of the static 1/day of each).

The set itself gains greater awareness as more pieces are collected as well, increasing it's ability scores, perception and communication, and gaining special purpose powers.

The problem I'm having is that, before collection benefits the individual items only cost 75k, but once the value of the collection benefits is added in this multiplies to a staggering 433k.

75k feels too low when divided between the items, given their scaling benefits, but 433k seems too high as when divided out that makes the individual items (before collection benefits) to expensive to be worth gathering in the first place.

So, does anyone have an idea on what could be done to alleviate this conundrum?


You can also stack sources of undead. The best I got by this method was an oracle of bones. They got had the Undead Master feat and Animate Dead as both a spell and spell-like ability at level 20. Using a robe of components to sub for material costs they could control, just by this means, 192HD.

They also had a revelation which acted as Channel Energy with the Command Undead feat, granting another 24HD, as well as the Eldritch Heritage feats for the Sacred Cistern power of the Empyreal bloodline, taken with the actual Command Undead feat to gain another 18 HD.

That alone gets you to 234HD.

Then just add in a page of spell knowledge with the Command Undead spell. This has no HD limit and has a duration of 1 day/level. Furthermore, an oracle with a +6 Cha mod can cast it 8/day. Keeping 1/2 those spells in reserve (just in case a mutiny occurs), you can easily control an additional 80 undead (total count, regardless of HD).

This last one should be primarily targeted towards controlling undead which can spawn armies but have low saves. That said, you can easily boost the save DC by taking the spell focus feats (necromancy, +2 DC), and by carrying around a darkskull (+4 DC) which boosts the DC of resisting this spell to an impressive 24 for a 2nd level spell (with the aforementioned stat mod) before modifiers such as Persistent Spell or Heighten Spell.

Even just using this on shadows with a simple 2 tier doubling pyramid scheme nets an additional 560 undead, each with at least 3HD (assuming you weren't specifically targeting greater shadows) for an additional 1680HD of undead.

Oh, & if you are going this route, I highly suggest either taking the Dhampir race or the Resist Life revelation, as this way you become immune to negative energy attacks and even heal from anything that would deal negative energy damage (such as your own Inflict and Mass Inflict spells which can be enhanced with negative energy bleed via the Bleeding Wounds revelation. Heck, if your DM is nice you might even get temporary fast healing.)

Recap: 234HD of undead + 80 undead (irrelevant of HD, easily multiplied to over 560 TOTAL via a simple two tier doubling pyramid). Sure it has risks, but you did ask for an army. ;)

Edited for math


Druid 4 (spells, wild shape and possibility of 4 to 6 natural attacks at full BAB and pounce) with shaping focus feat.
Monk 2 (monk AC, flurry when necessary, 2 bonus feats and evasion)
Rogue 2 (sneak attack, evasion which gets boosted to Improved Evasion if my memory is correct, and a rogue talent. Can be subbed for Ninja, but must take Evasion NT or forgotten trick and be willing to spend extra Ki to activate as needed)
Inquisitor 12 (judgements, domain, more spells, stern gaze, solo tactics, bane, and stalwart @ lvl 11)

Samsaran race with mystic past lives (+2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Con, pick your spells)

Boost Wis and Dex for AC, spells, and saves and feel free to take Weapon finesse which should work with almost all natural attacks.

For fun, use the spell frostbite (lvl 1) to deal extra (albeghit nonlethal) damage & stagger your enemies. Take the Enforcer feat to Shaken them. Take the feat tree to Shatter defenses so they are always flat-footed. & top it off with Power Attack and the Greater Sunder feats tree to de-buff them. (Not like you were going to use their armor anyways.)

You could also trade in one lvl of Inquisitor for one more of monk and take monastic legacy, but that hurts your judgements that advance on a 1/3 lvl basis.


@ mplindustries, I asked simply for clarification, & to see how others might handle the issue.

I mean no disrespect, but considering that these systems often leave a lot of information out and have many self-contradictions, pulling a dictionary definition is not entirely unreasonable.

As you will read above, I have no delusions as to how relevant that is to PF play in general, even if I don't believe it would be so cut-and-dry in real life as you seem to imply.

That said, I have witnessed more than a few times when you have used the phrase RAI (read as intended) to support your own views, so telling people never to read into the rules is rather a pointed statement.

Again, I mean no offense. Tone does not translate well in text. You and grick have kindly answered my question: this is too nitpicky for PF. Thank you. :)


I see your logic grick, but my argument still stands, at least in real life if not in Pathfinder.

& while "Table: Armor and Shields" may be the title of the table in question, shields are listed under the column heading "Armor," which still confuses the issue. & the quote about who can wear what armor doesn't necessarily clear things up either. (It could be read by dictionary definition to read that shields are simply a rare form of armor to be proficient with.)

But regardless, I've long accepted that whatever the real world might accept is irrelevant in any DnD setting, Pathfinder or otherwise.

So even though the dictionary clearly defines shields as armor, I guess that's just too much to ask of Pathfinder, as your post and second to last quote seem to indicate. Oh well.

Thanks for the input tho. :)


OK, so litany of defense clearly states that it doubles all enhancement bonuses to armor.

AC granted by shields are listed as shield bonuses (presumably so that they stack with worn armor), but shields are clearly listed under armor in the CRB. (Note the categories listed are light armor, medium armor, heavy armor, and shields, but they are all listed under armor.)

Furthermore, the dictionary defines armor as "a defensive covering... worn to protect the body against weapons," and shields are defined as "a broad piece of armor... strapped to the arm or carried apart from the body." (Summations, to be sure, but feel free to fact check me.)

So, would litany of defense apply to shield enhancement bonuses too, or is that too nitpicky for Pathfinder?


I am personally tempted to think of the dragon's roaring breath weapon being focused to form the blade of this weapon when it is summoned, sucking in all moisture and rattling any nearby opponents. Just say that it functions as the Enforcer feat, treating the duration as though one point of nonlethal damage had been dealt to all opponents within 20 feet, using the Dragon's intimidate skill (you will have to determine what this is, probably based on the effective CL of the item).

As for the second ability, perhaps it would just be simpler to say that if grants limited access to the Stunning Assault feat (but without the penalty to attack), which has a DC based upon the character's BAB.

Hope that helps.


Rynjin wrote:
Master_Crafter[/quote wrote:
And remember, a robe or bracers (or any piece of normal clothing) is considered by pathfinder to be armor
I'll make sure to tell my next Monk that he has to go naked and not use Bracers of Armor or he'll lose his class features.

You could do that...

Or you could just realize that it is just one of many double-standards that pathfinder places on certain rules and items (such as the fact that natural attacks and unarmed strikes are not interchangeable, even though both are inherently unarmed and use natural features of their possessors).


Matrix Dragon wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
I think Kolokotroni's terminology was helpful; calling it Hardened, Grizzled and Iron-Skinned (getting natural AC) evokes a certain flavor. In fact, if I was playing a robes-and-running-away wizard, that flavor might make me reconsider if that was really the distinction I should be taking.

I did exactly this with the Weapon Defense heroic distinction. I wanted to come up with a replacement for Bracers of Armor, but didn't want to simply say that you gain an armor bonus for taking this distinction.

Coming up with something similar (but different) for the Deflection bonus will be interesting... almost every deflection bonus in the game essentially comes from a protective barrier from a spell. Natural armor will be easy.

I've taken a look at your system, and it actual (at least at first glance) seems pretty cool.

As for the issue with flavoring the armor and deflection bonuses, I wonder if you might not be approaching them from the wrong angles. Why not try the following:

Block and Parry (Deflection AC): You learn to block your opponents incoming strikes, knocking them to the side harmlessly. You must either be wielding a weapon or have the Improved Unarmed Stike feat to benefit from this distinction.

(Armor AC): You learn to twist and flow allowing your opponent's strikes to snag in your clothing and glance harmlessly off your armor. You must be wearing some form of clothing or armor to benefit from this distinction.

And remember, a robe or bracers (or any piece of normal clothing) is considered by pathfinder to be armor with no armor check penalties and an AC bonus of +0, so there is no need to create a separate distinction for armor and clothing, such as robes or bracers. And if you are attempting to eliminate the "big six" you should also include a clause to eliminate or at least severely cap any item which grants a +x to any of those stats.

Edit: And while I realize that you were trying to get an unarmored +8 armor bonus to AC, since we are obviously working with homebrew rules here why not just craft armor with the Arcane Armor Training &/or Arcane Armor Mastery feats attached? It is not like the mage will be able to use that slot anyways, and I'm not sure the Monk's AC stacks with it anyways. Furthermore in the Magic Item Compendium from 3.5 there was a precedence for this kind of effect with Twilight armor which reduced arcane spell failure by 10%.


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OK, so it's a long post, but I'm gonna spoiler the majority of it.

This is a system I came across a while back. It seems to work well, though the WBL slash can be adjusted. Essentially every character gains inherent bonuses with the equipment they wield and their stats, but they don't actually count as magical (despite not stacking with the aforementioned). I've used this system before and it seems to work really well.

Internalized Magic System:

Decrease GP to50% when using this system.

Optional: Give each character the option of a free Super Genius Games Archetype without requiring them to trade out one of the starting packages. Decrease GP rewards to 10% if using this option.

Items only give special qualities, not +n enhancements under this system.

Starting at level 3 you may choose 1 heroic distinction you qualify for at each level. Please note Training Bonuses to not stack with Enhancement Bonuses, but do not affect DR or other abilities which require magic to bypass.

Defensive Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.

Improved Defensive Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Greater Defensive Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Improved Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Penultimate Defensive Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Perfect Defensive Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Offensive Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon.

Improved Offensive Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Greater Offensive Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Penultimate Offensive Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Perfect Offensive Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Lucky: The character receives a +1 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves.

Blessed: The character receives a +3 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves. A character must be at least 7th level and have the Lucky distinction before selecting this distinction.

Exalted: The character receives a +5 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves. A character must be at least 13th level and have the Lucky distinction before selecting this distinction.

Hardened: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +1. A character must be at least 6th level before selecting this distinction.

Grizzled: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +3. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Hardened distinction before selecting this distinction.

Iron Skinned: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +5. A character must be at least 14th level and have the Grizzled distinction before selecting this distinction.

Strong: The character receives a +2 training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.

Dextrous: The character receives a +2 training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.

Hearty: The character receives a +2 training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.

Intelligent: The character receives a +2 training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.

Wise: The character receives a +2 training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.

Charismatic: The character receives a +2 training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.

Mighty: +4 Training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Strong distinction before selecting this distinction.

Adroit: +4 Training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Dextrous distinction before selecting this distinction.

Unyielding: +4 Training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Hearty distinction before selecting this distinction.

Inspired: +4 Training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Intelligent distinction before selecting this distinction.

Attuned: +4 Training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Wise distinction before selecting this distinction.

Majestic: +4 Training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Charismatic distinction before selecting this distinction.

Herculean: +6 Training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Mighty distinction before selecting this distinction.

Alacritous: +6 Training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Adroit distinction before selecting this distinction.

Titanic: +6 Training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Unyielding distinction before selecting this distinction.

Brilliant: +6 Training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Inspired distinction before selecting this distinction.

Enlightened: +6 Training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Attuned distinction before selecting this distinction.

Awe Inspiring: +6 Training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Majestic distinction before selecting this distinction.

Magical Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +1 training bonus to the first damage die rolled.

Improved Magical Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +2 training bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Greater Magical Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +3 training bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Penultimate Magical Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +4 training bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Perfect Magical Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +5 training bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

It slightly favors fully defensive builds and TWF, but seeing as they are considered under par compared with fully offensive single weapon builds, I think it's still reasonable. And it gives you a description for the boosts that can be used in game without saying "I have a +3 bonus to my saves". Instead the character is "blessed", which some groups prefer in order to prevent meta-conversation in game. ("+6 IQ; how do you figure that?")

In this system you can still get a +1 weapon to bypass DR magic (though you don't need it to get the flaming special quality) and I personally allow up to +2 armor, shield and stat enhancements in my campaigns, but the primary benefit of these items becomes reduced compared to other magic item options.

For instance, it becomes much more likely that players will be willing to take up that sentient spell storing sword than simply falling back on their +2 weapon enhancement (which doesn't exist unless you go epic).

Some special abilities and pricings will need adjustment, tho, as a defending longsword without an enhancement bonus doesn't do the player much good (I allow them to trade out their innate bonus instead) and a headband of aerial agility (ultimate equipment) will never grant above a +2 stat boost, but may still grant the other effects.

For the latter situation all you have to do is reverse engineer the price difference for the stat boost and reduce the cost by that much, but it can still be a pain.

That said, I think this is a really well-written system and at least merits consideration.


I think Dathus is asking if you can use a disarm combat maneuver as an AoO to pick up a weapon that someone else is trying to reach for.

His logic seems (incorrectly to me) that since an unarmed combatant who successfully disarms an opponent may automatically pick up that weapon (presumably without an additional AoO, save from the one for the disarm combat maneuver) he should be able to use the same maneuver to pick up the weapon that his opponent is reaching for before they can pick it up themselves.

However, as I understand it you cannot use a disarm maneuver on an unattended object to pick it up. Furthermore your disarm maneuver in this case (being an AoO) occurs just before the triggering action (the opponent reaching for the weapon), and as such is being used against a still unarmed opponent. Therefore there is nothing to disarm your opponent of and nothing to "automatically pick up" as per the disarm rules.

That said, I see no reason a similar mechanic could not be used, but this would fall firmly under house rules.


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Why not just combine similar item creation feats into newer, broader feats? For instance:

Magic crafting - brew potion, scribe scroll, & craft wand

Wondrous crafting - craft magic arms and armor, craft wondrous item

Master Artifice - craft rod, craft staff, forge ring

In order to make an item of any given type they still have to meet the prerequisites for the "sub-feat" which covers that item (CL 7, 9, or 11 for rings, rods, or staffs, respectively using Master Artifice) but otherwise they may select the feat as soon as they would be able to select any feat available through that list.

This system also has the added benefit of grouping items by how they function (limited use items, worn/carried items, and powerful unlimited/rechargeable items). It also presents a much smaller feat tax to crafters.

And note that craft construct was deliberately left out. It just feels that much different since it is a magic item which doesn't need activation & can essentially function as another character under your control.


How about granting an extra archetype? So far there are no two archetypes for druid which are able to stack, but if you are loosing wild shape (effectively an extra spell per day every other level starting @ 4th with expanded options and a duration lasting 60x normal) I don't see why an extra archetype of their choice wouldn't be permissible.

Note that if you did this any core options that were altered or replaced by either archetype would be lost. But they would gain all the abilities of both archetypes, even if they normally replaced the same ability.

It's an option anyway.


Hmm. Hadn't realized that apparently someone had been able to view my document. Oh well.

@ aeroraver, the rationale behind the level placement of all the effects (save for Animal Aspect) is that the druid gains access to that effect one level sooner than any other character.

In the case of the dragon form spell tree (which is comprised of a level 6, 7, & 8 spell) they could be cast by any wizard starting at levels 11, 13, and 15, respectively. There for, in order for the druid to gain them one level sooner those effects are listed at levels 10, 12, & 14.

Also consider that the example you mentioned is based on a sorcerer with the draconic bloodline. If the bloodline were discounted the sorcerer (who already gains spells of any given level one level later than a wizard) could simply take DF I at level 12, DF II at level 14, and DF II at level 16.

However, if he wishes to rely on his bloodline bonus spells (a class feature which adds to their list of spells known beyond their normal limit) he has to wait an additional level, leading to the discrepancy you have noted.


Well, I know it's been a while, apparently my links didn't work the first time, so I'm going to try and spoiler this archetype. If you have any constructive criticisms, by all means reply, and thanks for bearing with me.

Master of Many Forms:

-Overview: A master of many forms sacrifices spellcasting prowess in order to focus on the ability to take on a variety of exotic forms including vermin, monstrous humanoids, giants, and even dragons. Through this focused study they even gain the ability to alter their forms in exotic ways that awe even other spellcasters.

-Spellcasting: A master of many forms has a reduced spell access. They gain a number of spells per day and spells known each level as an inquisitor. However, they must select their spells known from the druid spell list. This replaces the druid's normal spellcasting progression.

-Wild Shape: A master of many forms gains wild shape earlier than a normal druid, can assume wildshape more frequently, and gains access to a broader selection of forms. They can begin wild shaping at 1st level, and gain another use per day at 3rd level and every three druid levels thereafter. They also gain one additional use of wild shape for every four druid levels they possess, up to their wisdom modifier (minimum 0).

Whenever the master of many forms obtains a total of six uses of wild shape per day they gain the shapeshifter subtype, and whenever they are subject to a polymorph effect they may choose to cancel it's effect by using wild shape to gain those bonuses or resume their normal form.

When the druid reaches level 20 or when their daily uses of wild shape exceeds eight uses per day, whichever comes first, they gain wild shape at will. Furthermore, at level 20 the druid's wild shape ability is treated as an extraordinary ability and cannot be dispelled.

Refer to the chart below to determine the spell effects a master of many forms can use when wild shaping by druid level. These effects are cumulative. This otherwise functions as and replaces a druid's normal wild shape class feature.

Druid Level-Wild Shape spell effects
1st-Animal Aspect
2nd-Alter Self
4th-Beast Shape I, Greater Animal Aspect, Monstrous Physique I, Vermin Shape I
6th-Beast Shape II, Elemental Body I, Monsrous Physique II, Vermin Shape II8thBeast Shape III, Elemental Body II, Monstrous Physique III, Plant Shape I
10th-Beast Shape IV, Elemental Body III, Form of the Dragon I, Monstrous Physique IV, Plant Shape II
12th-Elemental Body IV, Form of the Dragon II, Giant Form I, Plant Shape III14thGiant Form II, Form of the Dragon III

-Versatile Shapechange: A master of many forms spends so much time perfecting his shapechanging abilities that he is not subject to the normal limitations of a normal druid's wild shaping.

At 5th level they may use the alter self and animal aspect effects of wild shape at will without using up wild shape uses per day. Furthermore they may alter the size of any form they are capable of taking, within the size limits of the spell effect they are using to assume that form.

At this level they may also take the form of a fey creature when usingany of the monstrous physique effects, gaining any listed DR up to DR 5. Additionally they may select one additional benefit from the list available for Animal Aspect whenever they assume a wild shape.

At 10th level when a master of many forms takes a wild shape they may select one additional special ability not normaly available to that form from the list provided for the spell effect they are using. The druid gains access to that ability until they change shape again.

At this level they may also chose to gain a benefit as though they were under the effects of Greater Animal Aspect whenever they assume a wild shape. This benefit replaces the bonus ability from Animal Aspect when wild shaping gained at 5th level.

In addition they may also use the Beast Shape effects of wild shape at a -2 effective druid level to assume the form of an ooze, treating an ooze as a magical beast with no natural armor. In this form they have no discernable anatomy and are immune to poison, sneak attack, and critical hits.

At 15th level they may expend one use of wild shape to gain the benefit of Enlarge or Reduce Person. These bonuses and penalties stack with those granted by wild shape but do not stack with any other effects which alter size. This effect lasts one minute per druid level and persists even if the druid assumes a new wild shape or resumes their normal form.

At 20th level whenever the druid assumes a wild shape they may select one additional special ability to gain until they change shape again. This ability may be selected from any of the spell effects they are capable of using with wild shape and is in addition to the bonus ability they gain at 10th level.

These abilities replace Nature Bond, Spontaneous Casting, Resist Nature's Lure, and A Thousand Faces.


Sorry, I forgot to change the file to shared. The new link is below.

Master of Many Forms Druid Archetype

And in all honesty, I'm not convinced that the MoMF should necessarily give up spellcasting all together. The druid spell list is sub-par to begin with as far as dmg and only meh as far as buffing to begin with.

What I've done is simply change the progression to that of an inquisitor, including spontaneous casting and spells per day, but with spells selected from the druid list and remove nature bond and spontaneous casting of summon nature's ally.

Personally, I think that more than justifies the extra forms available, especially as they essentially function as SLAs with extended durations taken from a single casting pool.


I know many people think Wild Shape is OP as is, but frankly I disagree & miss the old MoMF from 3.5. Furthermore, while I agree that polymorph effects in 3.5 were broken, I think that the massive overhaul of those effects in PF make the revision of that PrC as Druid archetype feasible, so here's my effort.

Feel free to share your opinions on this archetype or to use it in your campaigns.

Master of Many Forms Druid Archetype


Take the forgotten trick ninja trick instead of vanishing trick. So far your build has only one thing that will cost any ki (acrobatic master), so the 2 ki bump in cost for all the various ninja tricks is negligible.

You essentially get vanishing trick, feather fall, and all the other ninja tricks except rogue talent for 2 extra ki for a number of rounds equal to your ninja lvl.

And remember, even if you can technically make a 106 ft jump with your acrobatics check in one round, you still cannot move more than your maximum movement in a round. Thats (30ft x4running = 120ft) horizontal OR vertical if you take a full round action and are willing to forgo dex to AC, etc. Only 30-60 ft otherwise, the later being considered a charge.

I'd strongly recommend considering unbound steps to gain a virtual fly speed (1 ki for one round, up to 2x your base speed).

Still, for the "jumpy climber" concept you have going here, I like the use of acrobatic master, high jumper, and the base ability granted by your ki pool to really make the use of acrobatics and wall climber is a solid choice as well. I could even see a DM waiving the "underside of horizontal surfaces" clause if there were sufficient handholds present.

So essentially your ninja trick build ends up looking like this:

2- forgotten trick (2ki)
4- wall climber
6- RT nimble climber
8- acrobatic master (1ki)
10- high jumper

And before feats or stats your relevant skills look like this:

Acrobatics; 10 ranks, 3 class, optional +20 ki = d20 +13 or +23
---Vs max DC to tumble through an enemy's space at lvl 10 = +5 space, +5 slippery, +5 str, +5 Dex, +10 bab, +5 (other, just for safety margin) = 35

Climb; 10 ranks, 3 class, 8 climb speed, take 10 optional = d20 +21 or static 31
---Vs max climb DC = 30overhang with handholds, +5 slippery, +10 falling (with nimble climber) = 45

And those, being the most extreme circumstances, are not likely to affect you, caping most DCs you encounter for these efforts at 10 or 15 points lower. As it stands, you seem to have a pretty firm build, optimized for the task you describe if nothing else.


His respect for others would make him NE in my eyes. A truly chaotic character has no regard for the views of others, regardless of situation.

He seems to at least attempt to respect local laws and customs so long as they don't go directly against his own principles (no injury to women & the faithless have no purpose). True, his code is his own, but it makes some compensation for the viewpoints of others.


The knock back rage power allows a raging barbarian to perform a bull rush without provoking attacks of opportunity, similar to the improved bull rush feat. However, unlike the feat, the rage power allows the barbarian to deal dmg equal to his str modifier instead of granting a +2 to that combat maneuver.

Would you allow the rage power to stand in for improved bull rush as a virtual feat when being used to qualify for greater bull rush and similar feats?


From what I gather, any spellcaster capable of creating a phylactery can become a lich ( CL 11 & craft wondrous item). That said, they must have been alive at some point in order to have a life essence to trap inside the phylactery, and as a DM I would probably say that already being undead (and having lost possession of your own life essence) would certainly make things a lot more difficult to achieve.


Everyone seems to be referencing the glossary rules for incorporeal from the CRB instead of the universal monster rules from the bestiary.

The former doesn't reference channel energy at all, but at least on the official website ( linked above) it clearly states that an incorporeal creature "even when hit by spells or magic weapons, takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy)."

(emphasis mine)

That said, channel energy (the ability) should deal full healing or damage to incorporeal undead, according to the form being channeled. However, other spells which just happen to channel positive or negative energy would still suffer a 50% reduction in output when used to harm or heal an incorporeal undead creature. (Unless the DM ruled otherwise, of course, which I would fully understand.)

That said, there may be issues with the printings in reflecting this. But in such a case the official website, which is supposed to be the most complete and up-to-date consolidation of all sources for the PF system, should reasonably take precedence, IMHO.

Hope that helps.


I'd say let the characters fight the sniper you have, but make the sniper cautious. His primary goal seems to be acquiring this trinket from the character he just shot in the head, so unless he just won't have another shot at it let him run as soon as he's got it or whenever he drops to about 10HP.

That effectively gives him 20HP, which shouldn't be too much for your players to dish out in a couple rounds. It also poses the possibility of having a temporarily recuring villain if he gets away, either with or without the trinket.

Besides, if he never lays hands on the item till all the players are dead they may not be able to figure out what the plot hook is.

As for ghosting the KO'd "NPC", if the bad guy gets the upper hand it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to appear in a ray of moonlight over their corpse or the injured body of one of the PC's. In fact, seeing as it is presumably rare for a character to become a ghost (and that ghosts have a pretty nice attack against material creatures, none of whom present could harm it as they seem to lack magic weapons), the very act of the NPC rising as a ghost may be enough to send the sniper running, possibly dropping one of their items in their haste to depart.

Furthermore, in this scenario the NPC could possibly inform the PCs about the hook they may have missed. Even if the PCs prevail, you may want to have the NPC rise for this very reason. As is often the case in RPGs, when a plot hinges on noticing relatively small details it is often best to explain them to your players as they often go overlooked.


Aunt Tony wrote:

Controlling very powerful undead through a spell is a bit of a double-edged sword. It's functionally just like Dominate Person/Monster, and definitely taxing on your available spells per day. Losing control of an awakened Demilich is a great way to find yourself being raised and controlled... Potentially rewarding? Yes. Dangerous? Hells yeah!

In any case, this sort of control is categorically unlike that granted to the creator of an undead creature. The creator is given automatic, effortless and permanent command over his newly-created undead -- not so the Command Undead Feat which functions as the spell (albeit at a scaling save DC).

Very true, controlling very powerful undead can be very rewarding, but very dangerous. Intelligent undead gain a save vs control every day at the save DC of the effect used to control them. A slight workaround is to have enough extra uses available to re-enslave them twice a day, before one of the effects can wear off. Just order them to fail their saves before casting the effect.

The downsides are dispelling effects, which will probably make your entire squad go rogue at once, and that you will have to designate two uses of any given ability each day to maintaining control of your intelligent undead captains.

As for the control granted to undead creators, in the case of unintelligent undead, Aunt Tony is correct, it is unquestioned and indefinite up to the HD limit of animate dead , if using that spell. If using Create Undead or Create Greater Undead, however, control is not assured. It specifically states

Create Undead wrote:
Created undead are not automatically under the control of their animator. If you are capable of commanding undead, you may attempt to command the undead creature as it forms.

Therefore, for any undead created in this manner you will have to use the Command Undead feat or spell, and risk all the benefits and drawbacks of that effect.

To recap, a couple of intelligent undead such as lichs, etc can be a major asset (and some of themmay even be able to control additional undead for you!), but it is also a major risk. Evaluate what you are trying to do with them, as the sooner you are unburdened by controlling them, the better. Undead that can beget more undead are among the most powerful for their ability to multiply your power, but that same ability makes them more dangerous when you loose control over them.


At the risk of creating unnecessary debate for this thread...

Aunt Tony wrote:


I would be incredibly surprised if a GM allowed you to "double dip" the Channeling ability like that. As far as I know, the bloodline wouldn't stack with the Mystery at all. The Mystery would overlap it completely.

Actually, the mystery does not allow you to actually channel energy at all, as it only allows the controll of undead. And the forums have agreed that the bloodline ability would overlap any other channel ability as it is a different source of the ability. Would you argue that a sorcerer with that bloodline ability who took lvls in cleric couldn't use one of these abilities?

Aunt Tony wrote:


That's for things like Craft Arms and Wondrous Items. Pretty sure that Potions, Scrolls, Wands and Staffs do require you to have the spell cast into the item to create it.

There is no specific exception to the +5 DC for not meeting the prerequisites for creating any if those items in the CRB. I can understand that the CRB requires the caster to know and cast the spells in question, but these are just two potentially unmet prerequisites (a +10 crafting DC). While it would be understandable for a DM to rule creation as you have stated it, unless you can direct me to some errata which confirms that view my group will continue to craft in this manner. (Note that there are actual exemptions listed to certain general crafting rulles). That said, if you can direct me to such information I would be glad to recant.

Aunt Tony wrote:


Not sure I understand this bit. Do you mean that Bleed damage counts as the same type of damage as the effect which caused it? Because I was under the impression that Bleed doesn't affect creatures that... don't bleed.

I think you misunderstand me here. You are correct that bleed dmg won't affect undead, as they indeed do not bleed (so far as I'm aware, though there may be one obscure exception to this somewhere). However, the ability I reference allows you to tag bleed dmg on to any negative energy effect that deals dmg, which stacks with itself in subsequent rounds and bypasses all DR until healed. This form of attack, combined with the might of an undead army, is what makes the character a bruiser.

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