Martiln's page

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I am the GM in my group, and we all agree at my table that they stack with eachother. I was unaware that it was already asked about for years, but at the rate in which they've been answered FAQs, I figured it was worth a shot if enough people showed interest, but if no one on the board cares, I'll stop wasting my time.

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Tarantula, my point is for effects that actually increase a creature's size(enlarge person, righteous might, divine vessel, and animal growth for animal companions), there is a specific rule that says those spells don't stack, so a medium human can become large from enlarge person, and can also become large from righteous might, but he cannot combine the 2 to become huge, he takes the better spell. However, there is no specific rule for effects that TREAT a creature as being larger for the purposes of damage not stacking with eachother, nor does it say that they overlap(protection from/resist energy both have a specific rule for overlapping as well). Since there is no specific rule that says they won't stack, they should. I am willing to admit that I might be wrong, and they just glossed over the subject, which is why I created this thread in hopes of getting it answered officially, and if I'm wrong, all I want is a specific rule that says they don't stack, like what they did with the enlarge person and protection from energy spells.

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That's not the point, the point is it's a problem that should be addressed. Please don't spawn another argument here, I'm only trying to get it clarified here.

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4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

So if I have a human fighter wielding a spiked light steel shield, which treats the shield as 1 size category larger for the purposes of damage rolls with the shield, what happens if that same shield is later enchanted with the bashing special ability?

My belief is that the spiked shield is treated as a large shield for the purposes of damage, and the bashing special ability would then treat it as 2 size categories larger than large for the purposes of damage, but there are those people that disagree with me, saying that the 2 effects don't stack.

A similar example is a large wolf that takes improved natural attack and has strongjaw cast on it. would that treat the wolf's bite as if it were a colossal creature(3 size categories larger), or gargantuan(2 sizes)?

Please help me get this answered, and press the FAQ button, so the matter can be resolved once and for all.

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The rules don't say that they don't stack, and they also don't say that 1 effect overlaps the other, so the logical assumption is they both stack.
Medium creature wielding a spiked shield treats it as a large shield.

Medium creature gets bashing on its spiked shield, which was treated as large, is now treated as 2 sizes larger, so large shield is now gargantuan shield.

show me absolute proof that this isn't the case.

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They do not stack. Click the link I provided above.

Where in the Core Rulebook does it say a spiked shield and bashing don't stack? It doesn't, it only says that effects that actually increase a character's size don't stack, as I already stated in my above post. Thanks for reading that thoroughly by the way. Also, your link is just your opinion, there is no actual clarification of the matter at hand contained within it. If you can show me the rule that says "effects that treat a character as x size categories larger do not stack with effects that treat a character as x size larger", then I'll agree with you, and cease from pressing the matter further.

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Spirited charge: Did you use a charge action? It applies.

Supreme charge: Did you use a charge action? It applies.

Same way rapid shot and many shot both apply to a full-round attack from a bow. Spirited and supreme only require you used a charge action. If that is fulfilled, they both should apply.

The gendarme seems like the ability was written badly.
Normal 20th level Cav: ** spoiler omitted **

20th level Gendarme: ** spoiler omitted **

So cav does 2x normal damage(3x with lance), or 3x normal/4x lance with spirited charge.

The gendarme does... 3x normal or 4x lance, but that includes spirited charge. Its the same amount.

Actually the original cavalier's ability is written badly. The Gendarme clarifies what happens when the Gendarme with spirited charge AND the level 20 ability charges, the standard Cav doesn't. It seems like you're following the same logic people used to justify the 2 handed fighter archetype using overhand chop getting double their strength bonus on top of already doing strength and a half with a 2 handed weapon, and that's just silly.

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BBT: Bashing: Yes

Impact: No. As I said, I would go by text description, and klar is treated as a light weapon, which impact cannot be placed on. Also, impact is a weapon enhancement, not a shield enhancement, so the klar (or spikes) would have had to be enchanted as a weapon anyway.
Agile: Yes, it is a light weapon.
Two handed: No, it is a light weapon, so no extra damage.

Martiln, the problem comes from shield spikes.
"Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack."

The spikes already are causing the shield to do damage 1 size larger. Bashing makes the shield do damage 2 sizes larger. Bashing does not stack with the spikes, as the spikes are their own magical weapon, and not valid for the bashing enchantment. So, with a bashing klar, you have the option of
1)shield bash (with the shield part, using the bashing enchantment) for damage 2 sizes larger, or
2) with the shield spikes part (which might be enchanted as their own magic weapon and have something like keen) for 1 size larger damage.

You can't choose to use the bludgeoning part of a spiked shield, you have to shield bash with the spikes. That's already been confirmed in an older thread. As far as shield spikes and bashing, a spiked shield is still a shield, and still qualifies for the bashing property, and since the size of the item is not actually being changed, but only being treated as larger, then they stack.

Let me put it another way: I have a Wolf animal companion. The AC has a bite attack that does 1d8. Later on, I have it take Improved Natural Attack(bite), which treats its bite as 1 size category larger for the purposes of damage, making the bite deal 2d6 now. I cast Animal Growth on the AC to increase its size, so now it's a huge wolf, and its bite would do 2d6, but since it still has INA(bite), it's still treated as 1 size category larger, so its bite actually does 3d6, because the 2 effects aren't both changing the size of the creature, 1 is only treating it as being larger thus bypassing the rules that says "multiple effects that increase a creature's size don't stack.
I could also give the AC an amulet of mighty fists with the impact special ability to increase the damage to 4d6 with all the above bonuses because it still isn't actually changing the size of the creature.

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I don't think Supreme Charge and Spirited Charge can be combined...

Spirited Charge says: When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

Supreme Charge says: At 20th level, whenever the cavalier makes a charge attack while mounted, he deals double the normal amount of damage (or triple if using a lance).

They're both calling out the same action, so they shouldn't work together. Furthermore, the Gendarme archetype for Cavalier specifies in its 20th level ability:At 20th level, a gendarme represents the epitome of Mounted Combat. Whenever he makes a charge attack while mounted, he deals triple the normal damage (quadruple if using a lance); this damage includes all increases from the Spirited Charge feat and from the use of a lance.
The Gendarme has that clause, but the standard Cav doesn't.

Now as to how much damage you should do on a crit using supreme charge with a lance, it seems that you would still only be doing 5x your normal damage.

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I just discussed this in another thread. If you put Bashing on a Klar, the damage dice only go up one, because a spiked shield already counts as one step higher.

Incorrect, it goes up as if it were 2 size categories larger. You're probably thinking along the lines of Enlarge Person, which says "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack". The Bashing Special Shield Ability however, treats it as 2 size categories larger for the purposes etc... Note that it's not actually changing the size of the shield, like Enlarge Person would, but treating it as if it were larger. Therefore, a Klar with the Bashing property would be doing 2d6 damage on a shield bash.

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blackbloodtroll wrote:

I just reread the newer version of Drugs.

They are Alchemical.

That is some weird science.

So, magic Cocaine huh?

Poisons are pretty nuts, too. A fatal dose of hemlock being more expensive than masterwork full plate, for example.

Imagine Assassins in Pathfinder being able to take out PCs because they grew some weeds and put it in their stew.

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If it looks like a Duck, walks like a Duck, and quacks like a Duck, it's probably a Duck.

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I can see it working one way or the other; not both.

The other way to look at it is to compare it to moving into or out of a threatened area and when do AoO's apply.

If you move into a threatened area, you don't provoke; if you move out, you do provoke.

Might the same thing apply? Could you 5ft step in, but not out?

At the same time, you can 5-foot step into and out of a threatened square no problem, but a 5-foot step is different than a move action. Think about it this way; is it any easier to start walking into a swamp than it is to start walking out? In both situations, your movement will become hampered. you're not gonna stop being hampered by the swamp until you're not in the swamp anymore.

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Wait what? It doesn't matter if you're moving into Difficult Terrain or moving out of it, both of those situations count as moving through Difficult Terrain, so there is no taking a 5-foot step out of it without some special ability that lets you do so.

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The Dragon Disciple's Dragon Bite ability is not the same as an actual Dragon using its bite attack, so the answer is likely to be 1/2 strength bonus, since you are not of the Dragon creature type.

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Discordant Voice:
Prerequisites: Bardic performance class feature, Perform (oratory or sing) 10 ranks.

Benefit: Whenever you are using bardic performance to create a spell-like or supernatural effect, allies within 30 feet of you deal an extra 1d6 points of sonic damage with successful weapon attacks. This damage stacks with other energy damage a weapon might deal. Projectile weapons bestow this extra damage on their ammunition, but the extra damage is dealt only if the projectile hits a target within 30 feet of you.

Battle Dance:
Battle dancing is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, effects, and the like that affect bardic performance, except that battle dancing does not benefit from the Lingering Performance feat or any other ability that allows a bardic performance to grant bonuses after it has ended.

So long as you have the skill ranks, the answer seems to be yes.

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Edit: well it seems the original question was answered by the PDT, so there's no need for me to continue debating it.

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@B0sh1

Hmm; well, the Hexcrafter loses Spell Recall, which is one of the magus' primary use of arcane pool points. I'd suggest that the feat isn't necessary. Particularly since, if you're out of points, you can just hex away.

They get spell recall when they would normally get improved spell recall.

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Or bows are just way better than they look on paper.

once PCs start getting lots of wealth, a dual-wielding Gunslinger can put an archer to shame with the number of attacks they're getting, and they don't need to invest in strength to get a static damage bonus to their shots. Gunslingers become awesome later on, whereas Archers get better a fairly normal rate.

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"One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant

Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion."

So Slow is cast, and everyone but Valeros makes their save. then Haste is cast; the fact that only Valeros is affected by slow should mean that slow has made haste irrelevant while the duration of slow runs out, but since the affect of slow didn't hit everyone else, it has no way of making Haste irrelevant on them, so they should still benefit from Haste. the only person who remains normal(until such a time as the duration of Haste or Slow expires)is Valeros. Is this wrong?

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How do you plan on getting sneak attack against this character in order to beat him in a 1 on 1 fight?

In any event, he will definitely get the +4 bonus to his AC versus you. You should also watch out if he has smite evil.

There are ways to sneak attack someone without having to flank them...the most obvious being feinting in combat, the less obvious using intimidate to demoralize while utilizing the Shatter Defenses feat, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

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Who needs Whirlwind Attack?

Full Attack or Cleave works just as well, with the extra Reach giving you more targets.
Spring Attack (Attack Action) vs. Lunge + Full Attack - which is 'more powerful'?

Readied Actions I would consider on "your turn": it is still a Standard Action, using up your actions for your turn, not making use of an AoO trigger outside of the action/turn economy... I suppose I would require the PC/NPC to decide whether or not they are using Lunge when they declare the Readied Action - the AC penalty should apply in the intervening Init period if they want to use Lunge at all.

Louis wrote:

On a slightly unrelatedn tangent, do you think Lunge should be allowed with Whirlwind Attack? RAW seem to agree, but the idea of the character doing a forward Lunge doesn't mesh well with the one of a character doing a Whirlwind Attack.

Conceptually, the idea of the character recklessly putting themself off-balance, opening themself to attacks (AC penalty), in order to attack further targets in a larger area around them... makes complete sense to me.

I can 5-foot step in the middle of my whirlwind attack, can you 5-foot step in the middle of your cleave?

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Rage Prophet only requires a BAB of 5, not 6, so you could do Barb 4/Oracle 2, or Barb 2/Oracle 4. both of those are good choices, though the latter invests a bit more in spellcasting, while the former gets to rage a bit more often without having to sacrifice spells. which do you prefer?

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They get wild shape at 6th, and when they wild shape, they treat what they can wild shape into as their druid level-2(beast shape 1 for shamans), but if they wild shape into their totem animal, they treat their druid level as 2 higher(beast shape 2 or 3). it also affects the duration for how long you can maintain wild shape accordingly.

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it's a circumstance penalty. specific penalties/bonuses(morale, circumstance, luck, enhancement etc...) don't stack with themselves. only untyped bonuses/penalties and dodge bonuses do.

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You are evil, and Humanoids are a creature type. So yes, if you attack him, his AC will be +4 higher than normal against you.

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Even if I'm unaware of you, that still doesn't give you the right to objectify me.

Wow...why didn't I think of putting it like that?

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Your understanding is right; if he targets an enemy, it hits him and does splash damage to all adjacent squares of the enemy(this doesn't mean it's 9 squares total, since there are creatures bigger than medium), but if he targets a grid, it only hits 4 squares. I disagree however, with the assumption that it's too powerful, as a properly built fighter can do more damage than an alchemist's splash damage with a simple cleave, and even if it was powerful, it's limited, so it shouldn't be changed.

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Wait, disintegrate uses ranged touch attack to hit, right? don't touch spells ignore armor in the first place? How can you target armor if the spell ignores it to begin with?! ~Sarcasm

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I think them being flat-footed represents enough of a penalty already, and NPCs are unpredictable, they could move at any point in time, which can mess up your shot. Walls however, don't move at all, unless acted on by an outside force.

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No one's mentioned Ranseur yet? the bonus to disarm has saved one of my characters quite a few times from charging barbarians/minotaurs who suddenly find themselves weaponless in the middle of a charge. The Bardiche can also be a lot of fun, especially if you like improved crit/lunge/whirlwind attack. Longspears are nice for people who are only proficient with simple weapons, but the glaive is a better choice for martial characters. I'm also a huge fan of the ripsaw glaive. if you're strong enough, the bonus damage will last you almost a whole combat.

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Nefreet wrote:

Driver 325 yards wrote:

These two stack. Further, you can simply cast enlarge person while you are holding the bow and then cast gravity bow reight afterwards. They will stack because the are not stacking size effects. Gravity bow is not a size effect.

It's not an issue of "stacking", it's that these two spells just do not work together.

If a medium-sized creature is enlarged, and shoots a bow, his bow deals medium-sized damage. Add in Gravity Bow, and you'll only deal large-sized damage. If you want huge-sized damage, you're going to have to go by the example I gave, which is carrying around a large-sized bow to begin with.

No, I disagree that your example is the only option, setting aside the apparent goofy rule for enlarge and reduce person.

A person could simply carry around arrows that are already large size arrows in his efficient quiver. When he enlarges himself, he has to make sure that the efficient quiver is not on his person. After enlarging his bow is large. So now when he shoots large arrows from this bow the attacks do large bow damage (getting around the goofing enlarge person rule). If this same person then cast gravity bow he will be doing huge damage with a large size bow and large sized arrows.

That's how I've interpreted it. It's a nice way to boost your damage prior to combat(if you've got the jump on your enemies), but terrible in combat, because it takes too many actions to pull off that by the time you're ready to go, you could have already shot your bow several times.

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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Only 9 people pushed the FAQ button? I was hoping for more than that, so I'll bump again.

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CountMRVHS wrote:

So, does this weapon really offer anything another polearm with reach doesn't?

The ability to switch back and forth between reach and non-reach seems only slightly advantageous, in a few situations. To me, that's not the selling point of the Dorn-Dergar.

TWF makes the Dorn-Dergar a decent choice (for dwarves), since you can wield it in one hand with the proper feat. It's good, but is it the best? Well, that's pretty subjective and situational.

Here's a situation where the Dorn-Dergar out-shines everything else (in my opinion):

The Giant Killer in RotR
-Dwarf, has bonuses against giants
-Takes Ranger for FE:Giants
-Dual-wields Dorn-Dergars with appropriate feats (though it's -2 to TWF since not light)
-Dorn-Dergars have reach, useful against giants
-casts Lead Blades, big damage
-Gets the Twin Thunders feat line
-Becomes a Skyseeker!

Just my opinion, but in a campaign with a lot of giants like RotR, this guy is much scarier (and more flavorful) than the Dwarven fighter with a glaive.

So, if your question is about why a character may choose this weapon, hopefully I've provided a convincing common example from a popular AP. Should you choose this weapon for your specific plans in a general campaign? Well, I think that the posters in this thread have done a great job of analyzing the pros/cons of Dorn-Dergars in general situations, so hopefully you can make a very informed decision.

I think if you're going that route, the two-handed weapon combat style is a better choice, since ancestral weapon only affects 1 weapon at a time, and TWF with 2 dorn dergars means you're taking a -4 penalty to each attack.

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Ah jeez, this whole time I was under the impression whirlwind attack was a special full round action, not a full-attack. This changes certain tactics I've been using quite a bit.

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... Way to take the "high road" there after committing to it so much already.

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Yeesh, I have a hard time processing the idea of making a 3/4ths BAB class into a pure caster. It's like trying to turn a Fighter into a Skill Monkey to me. However the 1 good idea I've seen is a cleric that makes liberal use of Sacred Summons and nothing but buff/battlefield control spells. It can be done, but you'll always be behind a pure arcane caster in terms of raw power, cleric spells just don't have the oomph to compete.

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Yea I know how the ring works. I was trying to make an analogy based on a common explination I hear in PFS.

SRD wrote:

Guarded Life (Ex)

Benefit: While raging, if the barbarian is reduced below 0 hit points, 1 hit point of lethal damage per barbarian level is converted to nonlethal damage. If the barbarian is at negative hit points due to lethal damage, she immediately stabilizes.

Alright, let's try using the SRD definition. WHen at 0 or below, any time you would take hitpoint damage convert your barbarian level in damage to nonlethal damage. For Greater Guarded Life, it's twice this. That means twice your level in damage is converted to nonlethal damage. And of course your DR is doubled vs lethal damage. Once converted, it is no longer apart of the same attack, because this is a rule that is not unless it says it is, much like a spell ends after you cast it unless it says it doesn't. This is crucial, as it allows your DR to apply to the remaining lethal damage.

Pay close attention to the wording here. notice how it says reduced below 0 hit points. now watch me re-word it to fit your theory:

Benefit: While raging and at or below 0 hit points etc...
You take the damage first, then if it is enough to reduce you below 0 hit points, you start converting. Don't put the Wagon before the Horse.

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TWF is tough on a vivisectionist since they don't get many things to add to it, but it is doable. have you considered the Feral Mutagen Discovery? When using a mutagen, you grow a bite and 2 claws. that's 3 attacks at level 5 at your full attack and damage bonus. compare that to the 2 attacks you get from TWF which are at your full attack bonus-2, and your off-hand attack only does /strength bonus on damage rolls. an amulet of mighty fists+1 is technically cheaper than 2 +1 weapons, and it applies to all of your natural attacks. As for your other discovery, infusion is a nice way to share your extracts with party members. I'd personally stat the character as follows:
Strength: 16(10pts)
Dexterity: 14(5pts)
Constitution: 14(3pts)+1 at 4th
Intelligence: 14(5pts)
Wisdom: 11(1pt)
Cha: 7(-4pts)
More strength means more to hit and damage, your dex takes a minor hit, you get more HP, and intelligence can be raised later so you can use your highest level extracts. You mentioned being the face? I'd not bother, alchemists don't have any social skills as class skills, but if traits were allowed, I'd say take bully and the intimidating prowess feat, at least then you can scare the bejeezus out of NPCs for information, and demoralize your enemies, but you probably have better things to do with your combat time, like preparing to unload the sneak attacks. What else do you need help with?

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So Guarded Life instead gives you non-lethal damage, which knocks you out anyways, but you're auto-stabilized when brought below negative hp? That latter half replicates exactly what diehard already does, in fact it's worse to take the non-lethal, because with diehard, you already have the choice to fight on or fall unconscious and be stable, but with guarded life, you're unconscious no matter what you do.

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You should read the rules for Feinting in Combat before asking this:

Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

I know that Greater Feint treats them as flat footed until the beginning of your next turn, but the intent of Feinting is that you get to take advantage of them falling for your bluff, not anyone else.

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maybe Wish. Polymorph any Object can't even do that, and it's an 8th level spell for wizards.

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BBT, the men in white coats will be along for you shortly. Do try to stay calm until they arrive. :)

- Gauss

To the Funny Farm, where life is beautiful all the time...

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Bumping for relevance.

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There are two contrary faqs. One says that Racial Heritage counts for taking racial archetypes. The other says that Half-Elves and Half-Orcs don't qualify for the parent race archetypes. But this also flies in the face of the rules for Humanoids listed in the ARG that says a racial subtype qualifies you for any race-based prerequisite so the half-breed FAQ is the odd-man out because the reason it cites, racial archetypes not counting as an "effect" is both directly contradicted by the pre-existing FAQ on Racial Heritage (which hasn't been retracted) and the ARG which allows it not based on the "effects" term but the "prerequisite" term which can't be so easily dismissed.

You should press the FAQ button on my thread about that issue, as I'm trying to raise awareness of and eliminate the contradiction.

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I don't think elementals and demons sweat.

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14 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

It has come to my attention that there is a flaw in the way the rules for racial archetypes are supposed to work, according to the FAQs responses for both the Racial Heritage feat, and certain "Half-Races" Selecting Racial Archetypes of their parent races:

FAQ 1: Racial Heritage

FAQ 2: Racial Archetypes

which according to FAQ 1, implies that racial archetypes are an effect related to race, even though in FAQ 2 it clearly states that racial archetypes do not count as an "effect". So the question remains; which of these 2 are supposed to be true? please hit the FAQ button on this thread if you'd also like this answered. I know I do.

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Actually, Scion of Humanity does allow you to be targeted by various "person" spells, like Enlarge Person.

It also opens up Human racial archetypes, feats, traits and such.

With the Racial Heritage feat, you can also count as a third race, like Orc, and then take levels in Orc racial archetypes, like Scarred Witch Doctor.

I could have sworn the FAQ said that unless you are specifically the race that has the racial archetype, you can't select it, like only elves being ancient lorekeepers, and only dwarves being Foehammers?

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Ah, that's what I was missing. Well then, never mind lol.

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Man, as soon as I saw that, I was all over it for my chakram throwing fighter. I suddenly imagined the appearance of him throwing giant cordless yo-yos at the enemies, and had to have it.