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Sasquatch

Mark Sweetman's page

Goblin Squad Member. RPG Superstar 2014 Star Voter. Pathfinder Society Member. 1,931 posts (24,933 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 29 aliases.


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Easiest and simplest solution is to just start a thread in the Play by Post forum and get your players to chime in on it.

You would then have a primary (IC RP) thread for the roleplay and can even open a discussion thread for the OOC banter.

Lastly you can set it up as a Campaign so that you can share whatever you like in the campaign info page for easy reference.

In short, it's exactly the purpose of the boards so go for it :)


gamer-printer wrote:
in fact except for the symbiotes, and those tall horned aliens that once served as a host in some of the episodes, there are no non-humans in the entire series and movies.

I don't think you watched to the end of all the series there...

Stargate Wiki List


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Surely Dr Jackson is an Archaeologist Bard no?


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Painlord - indeed, that particular incarnation of Hathin would've been interesting over time... but such is PbP :)

I agree mostly with what you're saying - just that they are polarizing and you'll get some solid PbP'rs who will see it and not consider any further... plus if you have a completely new player come onto an RP thread and see a couple of profilic posters dominating the back and forth that can also be a turn off.

One of the other issues can be the sheer number of players that apply sometimes. I ran a Reign of Winter recruitment that ended up with over forty applicants. As a DM it took me damn near a week from memory just to read the applications and ask a few simple questions of each of them. Having an open RP with that sort of number would've been chaos unadulterated.

So yes, an RP thread can be a good thing and it works for a goodly number of people... but it's not and shouldn't be seen as the only way to do it. I'm not implying that you said it was the only method, just reinforcing that there's multiple ways to skin a cat.

Other options:

  • The method I put above, where you ask for a single IC response to a posed question.
  • Question and answer - where you ask a few directed questions to the player on their background / character and measure them on the response.
  • Picking six players for a five player game - and making a conscious decision to give the sixth spot to a newbie. That way if it works - great, if not, then you still have a functional party to move forwards with.

Other things that a first time player can do to be involved and put their hand up a bit higher is things like:
1) Answering straightforward questions in the Recruitment thread. Ie. if someone asks 'What's the starting gold?' and it's clearly stated in the first post.
2) Putting together a list of applicants.
3) Checking in on the recruitment thread regularly over time and remaining engaged where appropriate. Not spamming it obviously, but showing that you're there, engaged and keen.
4) Paying attention to what the DM posts and indicates. Read and re-read the guidelines, double check what's been asked and answered before - and take that into consideration before posting.


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verdigris wrote:
If showing your PbP skills in a recruitment is an imposition, then yeah, it's better just to skip it and find another more tailored to your individual play style.

Not necessarily, I love to RP... just not in the recruitment threads.

An example - here's a recruitment RP thread that I was involved with.

It's a fairly straightforward one for CotCC, with the applicants asked to RP out within a tavern. However the problem comes in several points:
1) It's mixed in with the OOC posts - which makes it hell to actually follow and read what's going on.
2) You'll find it gets dominated by a few more prolific posters.
3) If done wrong it can promote wierdness - such as broody loner ish types feeling like they have to engage off type to get seen amongst the rest.
4) If done this way - do you then reset the clock for the main campaign? - or do all the characters now know each other, etc.
5) It's a lot more work for the players to do... which is fine in some respects, but also means that as a DM you're imposing more upon those that you will eventually regret - which leads to a I just spent two weeks RP'ing and still didn't get picked, bugger this I'm giving up. feeling at times.

A different option would be to do something like: This - where the request is for a single IC post to show a small taste of both character and posting ability.

But the best information is going to be obtained via Player Stalking (ie. researching their other PbPs or posts) for the most part.


A lot of good information in the guide - with the keys being to attempt to establish your expectations and stalk your prospective players.

First past the post recruitments don't have to be horrible (I'm in an 8,000+ post PbP coming on four years running that was selected on first past the post); though they do have a tendancy to be hit and miss.

In your second point you allude to and reference the potential for pre-selection RP or 'Auditions'. These are probably one of the most polarizing choices in recruitment - some people like them... they make me want to puke blood and I instantly avoid any thread that proposes them.

To me it's enough of an imposition to request prospective players to put forward a character concept plus a bit of background.


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Greg A. Vaughan wrote:
Good news from Richard Pett today. He thinks he'll probably be able to get me all the completed manuscripts for The Blight by Easter. If that is the case, then an end-of-year release for The Blight is much less speculative. Still no guarantees as the manuscript is still sight unseen, and we'll have to do all the development work from our end as well, but it fills in a lot of blanks on where we're at in the process exactly. So, woohoo!

Cold and clammy palmed excitement ensures as the Wheel of Fortune board states:

M ' N _ _ _ _ _ _ R R R R!

Would you like to buy a vowel?


From Inner Sea Gods:
Blackfingers: represents unethical experimentation for the sake of knowledge and the harmful use of chemistry... practice vivisection and surgery without anesthetic.

It's not just Skinsaw that's overtly evil in nature, and while the Reaper and the Gray aren't as explicit - they still bend towards nefarious purpose in their implementation.


GreyWolfLord wrote:
Bolg IS mentioned in the Hobbit I believe, but is much more pertinent to the final battle than Azog.

In the book canon Bolg was indeed the leader of the goblin armies at the Lonely Mountain. Book-Azog was long dead by the time of the Battle of Five Armies.

I'm of the cynical view that the only reason Jackson decided to resurrect Azog was so that he could keep Bolg specifically for Legolas to fight and kill.


The times I've been involved it's been a DM run deck - as in the DM did the drawing and assigned the cards.

No reason for there not to be trust - it's no different to some DMs that occasionally do off-screen rolls for their monsters, etc.


Confirmatory hand raised.


Dear Sir / Maam,

Could you please cancel the miniatures subscription attached to my account?

I've had significant issues with customs clearance (unrelated to Paizo) and a lost case shipment (also unable to resolve due to no tracking) that have made it too much of a hassle to continue with the subscription.

Regards,
Mark


DM Stalwart wrote:
Available classes: Any published Paizo class or archetype (nothing from the current playtest, however).

gyrfalcon - above from the first post.


My proposed Halfling Mouser will be named Tobar Pannell

Rough Crunch:
Str: 10, Dex: 18, Con: 12, Int: 10, Wis: 12, Cha: 17
Swashbuckler (Mouser) 4
Traits: Ilizmagorti Native, TBC
Skills: Stealth, Acrobatics, TBC
Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Fencing Grace
Gear: Rapier +1, MW Chain Shirt, Buckler +1, TBC

Appearance:
Standing average height and of a slight build, the halfling doesn't immediately draw your attention. Mousled brown hair sits like an unkempt mop atop a thin clean shaven face with narrowed brown eyes. There is but a single feature to him that both diminishes and enhances the effect... a duelling scar that arcs across his left cheek and back to his ear. The scar draws the left corner of his mouth slightly higher twisting his mouth into a permanent half-smirk.

He wears loose fitting pantaloons and an open silk shirt that clearly shows the linked chain shirt that protects his chest. At his right hip is a thin blade with basket hilt, and his bearing suggests that he knows full well how to use it.

Personality:
Tobar maintains a relatively sardonic air to all and sundry whether they be fleeting acquaintances or close friends. There is little bias to his mocking, as near all subjects are at risk of his whim. That said it takes ardour and effort to rouse his anger... though when cause is given he pursues vengeance with singular purpose.

The one topic that draws his attention entire without skeptical bent is application to the tasks put before him by Red Mantis superiors. Tobar does not share the fanatical deification of Achaekek (though he does pay a homage) and instead views the art as his life's calling.

Backstory:
Tobar Pannell was born to Chelish slaves aboard a galleon at sea, and served his youth afloat. Though his life truly began when the Chelish vessel was chased into the shallows of Mosquito island off the shores of Mediogalti. The galleon scuppered it was easily boarded by a Mantis manned skiff and the most of the crew slaughtered. Tobar, though still a boy, took up a blade and resisted... and something was seen in him, as the Mantis before him turned his blade and laid him out with the flat.

Dumped in the outskirts of Ilizmagorti, Tobar was left to fend for himself and prove that he had not just heart... but a will to survive. An existence was eked out at first, before the halfling turned to the blade as well as the shadowed step - and began to find succor more easily. Always Red eyes were watching, as Tobar grew into adulthood and carved out a niche in the piratical city.

Enough potential seen by the watching eyes, Tobar was eventually given a final test - and surreptitiously given a task at theft... that put him squarely before a Red Mantis assassin. Given the option of flight or death, Tobar stubbornly stayed - and though he pushed the assassin for a few minutes, he was disarmed and earned the dueling scar that marks his cheek. An ultimatum of join or die was given, and Tobar accepted.

Since then he has been trained and incorporated into the lower echelons of Achaekek's cult - put to learn with blade and word... and now ready to be unleashed unto the world to spill blood for profit.

The assassin that admitted and initially trained him is left open to either be incorporated into the narrative - or swept to one side and left as a pure backstory character.


My proposition is slowly coming together, after vacillating between Slayer and Brawler I've instead reversed path and ended up with a Halfling Swashbuckler with the Mouser archetype. I'll put him up for perusal once I've got both the nitty and gritty aspects narrowed down.


Hand raised in interest... shall ponder then post.


Behind the times - ThanksKilling came out in 2009...


Good quality on our M36s would give us nothing, as they're already Reliable.

Good quality flak armor would an option as well. (increases AP by 1 vs first attack each round)

I'm fond of micro-beads, as they'll allow for communication at distance.

Survival suits are similarly decent options.


On the topic of favored weapons:
From the rules: Each regiment has weapons that its members prefer to wield, or have a natural aptitude for. Each regiment may choose one Basic Weapon and one Heavy Weapon to be their Favoured Weapons, these weapons must be Very Rare or more available.

BoggBear's chosen the Heavy weapon to be the M34 Autocannon - a quite beasty jobbie that does 3d10+8 (6 Pen)

The options for the basic weapon are quite open - though here's a short list:
Triplex Pattern Lasgun - it's versatile, but lacks some degree of hitting power.
Meltagun - up close and face melty, massive armor penetration.
Plasmagun - more range, decent penetration and can be shot on maximal... but has overheating issues.
Long Las - your las based sniper rifle, but at only scarce availability we lose a bit of 'bang for the buck'
Boltgun - cut down version of the Space Marine's staple gun.
Flamer - low penetration, but good against swarms, though again only scarce availability. Plus you could choose it directly at character generation.

A Weapon Specialist has the following text: Specialist Equipment: 4 frag or krak grenades, Good Craftsmanship lasgun or Common Craftsmanship flamer or Common Craftsmanship shotgun or Common Craftsmanship Regimental Favoured Basic Weapon. - so if you want a shotgun or flamer, you could take it as part of your starting gear.
Alternatively, you could take whichever the favored basic weapon is.

The reason it's important to pick a 'good' basic weapon is that it's much easier for us to get reloads and resupply on it. Anything else we need to be subject to logistical rolls... which will suck initially.

If you want to be a sniper, you could always go Ratling as well.

At character generation (in keeping with us being grunts of the Imperial Guard) we get nada outside of the basic kit. So if we want it, we need to choose it as part of our base loadout.

For starting skills - I'd support BoggBear to say that Dodge and Parry > most other choices if you want melee capability.


For kit - let's have the Heavy pick their gun, and if we have any Weapons Specialists then they can pick the favored basic weapon.

I would recommend we have at least one gun with some punch though. The M36 is a nice workhorse of a gun... but it does have Pen of 0.


Point Allocation:
WS: 20 +2 +18 = 40
BS: 20
Str: 20 +3 +3 +9 = 35
Tough: 20 +3 +7 = 30
Agi: 20 + 15 = 35
Per: 20 + 10 = 30
Int: 20 -3 + 13 = 30
WP: 20 +10 = 30
Fel: 20 +18 +5 = 43

Other Character Details:
Aptitudes: Defence, Fellowship, Leadership, Perception, Strength, Toughness, Weapon Skill

Skills: Command, Navigate (Surface), Survival, Athletics

Talents: Iron Discipline; Weapon Training (Chain, Las, Low-Tech), Die Hard, Rapid Reload, Lightning Reflexes, Street Fighting

Specialist Gear: Common Las-pistol; Common Chainsword

Wounds: 10 +2 +1d5 ⇒ 2

Standard Kit: M36 lasgun and four charge packs, suit of Imperial Guard flak armour, 2 x frag grenades, 2 x krak grenades

Regimental Kit: upgrade standard melee weapon to Common Low-Tech weapon; or apply mono upgrade to standard melee weapon.

Equipment: Chameleoline: gain either chameleoline cloaks or chameleoline-coated armour


The 30 points are on a regimental level to update our 'standard kit' - so they're spent as a group, rather than individually.


Regimental Details:
Homeworld: Death World: +3 to any two of Per, Str, Tough
Trained in Survival
Fluency: can speak Low Gothic, but do not start with Linguistics (Low Gothic)
Hardened: choose one of Light Sleeper / Lightning Reflexes / Resistance (Poisons)
Wary of Outsiders: -10 on Interaction tests in formal surroundings; also -10 on Interaction tests made on them by non-death worlders.
Start with +2 Wounds

Commander: Sanguine: gain Die Hard talent

Regiment: Line Infantry: +3 Str, -3 Int
Starting skill: Athletics
Starting Talent: Rapid Reload
Standard Kit: M36 lasgun and four charge packs, suit of Imperial Guard flak armour, 2 x frag grenades, 2 x krak grenades

Training: Hardened Fighters: +2 WS
Starting Talent: Street Fighting
Regimental Kit: upgrade standard melee weapon to Common Low-Tech weapon; or apply mono upgrade to standard melee weapon.

Equipment: Chameleoline: gain either chameleoline cloaks or chameleoline-coated armour

I'll run with allocated points, and unless anyone else has a strong desire for it I can be our Sergeant.


Well in line with Tark's desire to follow KISS - here's my suggestion:

Homeworld - Deathworld (3 pts)
Commanding Officer - Sanguine (2 pts)
Regiment - Line Infantry (2 pts)
Training Doctrine - Hardened Fighters (2 pts)
Special Equipment - Chameleoline (3 pts)

This will give us a hard-ass line infantry regiment that can fight up close, sneak around pretty decent with the chameleoline cloaks, and has 30pts of regimental kit left to play with.

Are we doing random rolls down the line for character creation Tark?


On Armour:
Flak Vest is AP 3, Helmet is AP 2
Full Flak armor is AP 4 for all locations

You get hit in the head 10% of the time, body 40% - meaning light armor gives 50% coverage only.

Ergo - full coverage armor is very important to make us slightly less likely to be MDK'd without much effort.

My suggestion is to make our own regiment, but am happy to have specific Tark guidelines as to the core theme, mandatory choices, etc.

I would suggest the following as a skeletal regiment build (all from the Core book):
Homeworld - I am unfussed - we could go Death World to allow people to run with the 'Catachan' angle?
Commanding Officer - open to suggestions
Regiment Type - Line Infantry (it's boring, but gives us a main gun upgrade to the M36, full flak armor, and frag and krak grenades for all)
Training Doctrines - I'm fond of 'Hardened Fighters' (more stabby) or 'Sharpshooters' (more shooty)
Special Equipment - I like 'Chameleoline' (cloaks of elvenkind for all) or even 'Combat Drugs' (exactly what it says on the tin)


Think Soviet Union Morale Officer... except with more discretionary powers and less conscience. They have abilities that only function when they summarily execute one of the guard squad (not our characters but 'comrades' which are kind of like super underpowered cohorts). They can do whatever they want, you have no recourse against them, and if they like they can decide to shoot you in the head for sh1ts and giggles.

Perfect as NPCs... not so much as PCs.


I am vehemently opposed to Commissars as PCs in Only War. If one gets included then I'm out.

I'm happy to run through the regiment creation aspect if there is a desire to custom fit our regiment? - I've got all the resources as PDFs so it's not hard for me. I also find regiment creation one of the nicer aspects as well; and the pre-built regiments come with too much baggage as far as how they're meant to react, etc.

Are we stationed on a Paradise world Tark?


Hand raised as a potential player also.


Joana wrote:
Once you're in a few, though, you can start building a network: players and DMs with whom you click well and have similar gaming styles. When vacancies open up in other games they're in, they're likely to suggest you to fill them. When they decide to start new games, they'll invite you to join.

As a slight addition to what Joana's said - I'd note that all four of the characters selected in the recruitment that RD is referencing are currently playing with the DM in at least one or more other PbPs already.

It's something that I do as well - as a DM you're more likely to pick what you know over something you don't.


Within the limitations of not quite knowing exactly what type of regiment, whether we're running with or without ogryn, etc, etc, etc... I'll put my hand up for involvement.

What is your characters first experience with death?
"At basic... some idiot didn't put his helmet on before live fire exercises. Suffice to say he... nor anyone that got painted with his brain matter'll make that mistake again."

How important is family to your character?
"Worth nothing and everything... blood is gone, overrated. Only family I know is the bastards in the line beside. And if I don't care for them... then word'll get round and I'll end up with a monoknife in my kidney because some drek liked the shine on my boots"

Describe your characters childhood.
"Meaningless banality punctuated by short periods of sleep... then I joined the corp... now it's banality with some great purpose... and less sleep."


mplindustries wrote:
Whatever the rest end up, Gluttony is a Hungry Ghost Monk.

Bloatmage? (it's the one on the right...)


Barbarossa - that's kind of what the revised module line is meant to provide.

Plunder and Peril is 4-7
Tears at Bitter Manor is 5-8


The 'simplification' doesn't actually simplify or change anything though....?


Strict RAW: Breaking Stealth: ... Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful.

As a CDG doesn't require an attack roll - technically it doesn't explicitly break stealth.

I would've gone with a Stealth check after each CDG - with appropriate modifiers depending on the situation. A CDG with a dagger (slit throat) being quieter than a CDG with an earthbreaker.

Probably DC 15 (modified up to 25) if the CDG was successful.
DC 5-10 (modified up to 15-20) if the CDG didn't autokill, or they were using a bludgeoning weapon.


I've lost my muse this week with work being amped up, so I'll respectfully withdraw from the running. Good luck and godspeed to all.


I'm going to respectfully back out - the muse has been limited with work and I won't be able to do a concept justice.


Jester David - the psychic rogue is just one way to play it though.

You could equally build it to be a dwarven soldier who inscribes his armor with the runes of the dwarvish pantheon and the gladdringgar of his ancestors.

Upon his axe - Angradd, the Forge Fire; upon his helm - Bolka, the Golden Gift, etc.


*Nods* - for a frame of reference to the question, the nascent mental thread I have is to build a Brawler that's able to Stealth and potentially take out sentries / witches in a single burst.

The Bushwhack feat allows for enacting a Chokehold as a single action (initial grapple plus follow-up as a free action) and doesn't rely on winning initiative to prevent the target making a noise / alerting others.


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In the Occultist thread it was stated that they are looking at Resonant Powers not being depleted as you spend mental focus - so hopefully that makes it into the final class. I think this is key to making the Occultist work - as it allows you to actually spend all of your Focus rather than hoard it for resonant powers.

Similarly it's also been suggested that there will be an Extra Mental Focus feat that could be taken. Which could easily turn itself into a 'must take' feat.

My view on the class is that you cannot set yourself up only for one role - as in build it with implements and powers that funnel into a sole purpose, you need to keep yourself open to changing the Mental Focus split depending on what you expect to do for the day and keep the options open.


Consider the challenge duly accepted :)

I'll be incoming with an Occultist, race and background pending.


Dot - will come back with something shortly... Leipstadt Inspector sprang to mind.

Does the all Paizo sources include or exclude the Occult Adventurer's Playtest?


JamZilla - a question... would you allow the following feat from the Monster Codex to be taken?

Bushwhack (Combat):
You can subdue an unsuspecting foe quickly.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: When a flat-footed creature is unaware of your presence and you successfully grapple it, you can attempt a second grapple combat maneuver check to pin the creature as a free action. If you have the Chokehold feat (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 92), you can instead use this second combat maneuver check to initiate a chokehold.


Respectfully I meld out of the shadows and raise my hand for consideration. While I have DM'd the way through most of the first AP volume twice - I can keep the player and character knowledge apart.

I'll ruminate on possibilities before submission.


JoelF847 wrote:
Am I the only one who wishes this was a 9-level caster with d6 HD and low BAB? I really like the implement based casting, and various powers, but wish it was a full caster instead of a hybrid.

TBH I like the concept enough that I can see all the variants (4 level, 6 level and 9 level casters) as viable options... but if we only get one I like the middleground hybrid the best :)


Why Abjuration?
Abjurations are protective spells. They create physical or magical barriers, negate magical or physical abilities, harm trespassers, or even banish the subject of the spell to another plane of existence.

Divination spells enable you to learn secrets long forgotten, predict the future, find hidden things, and foil deceptive spells.

Surely the fluff in the PRD on Divination is far more on point?


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If Trap Sense is added... let it at least be a Resonant Power or Focus Power option and not hard-coded into the base class. Divination would be the obvious fit. Sure it fits for some concepts - but it doesn't fit for all concepts.

I personally don't see why the Occultist should have Knowledge Geography, Nature or Nobility... but could see a partial case for Dungeoneering or Local.

4+Int = likely 7-8 for a non-Human or 8-9 for a Human... which is plenty in my books. The class benefits more from Martial weapon proficiencies than it would through an extra two skill points it doesn't really need.


Apocryphile - the choice you make at 1st is for the ability to use an Implement Group, which allows you access to the whole list. Each day, you select one item - which is your implement for the day. Each implement group also comes with a base focus power.

If you choose the same group twice then you get two spells of each level, plus need to select two different implements. Those then get invested into individually with Mental Focus and unlock resonant powers separately.

For example - you want to make a two weapon fighter, so you choose Transmutation twice at first level. You can then choose 2 x knacks and 2 x 1st level Transmutation to chuck onto your spells list. You also get access to the Base Focus Power Psychic Weapon.
When you prepare for the day, you choose two Implements - in this case two shortswords. You then invest your mental focus, and choose a Resonant Power for each weapon - in this case it has to be Legacy Weapon.
If you invested at least three Mental focus into each weapon, you could choose a separate +1 equivalent ability for each weapon / implement.
You would also only have one eligible Focus Ability to choose - which would be Sudden Speed.

Honestly you'd get more out of choosing two separate groups at 1st level, or going with a 2H weapon / Belt combo.


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Longwinded:
The Occultist can fight, and has great survivability. Also has greater flexibility of magical items, as you can utilise your implements to replace a couple of the big ticket items - this translates into having more character wealth available to invest in other stuff. (eg at 8th level you could use Warding Talisman to get +3 Resistance on saves - saving 9,000gp or 27% of your WBL).

He has a good skill selection and will be rocking 7-8 skill points per level. He also rocks out UMD due to Magic Item Skill. Object Reading is situationally awesome as well - and can help both player and DM to breadcrumb plots and nudge things along.

While the spell list is limited, he will typically have more spell choices than your typical spontaneous caster. eg at 7th when you get 3rd level spells a Bard would know 2, you know 4; at 10th when you get 4th a Bard would know 2, you know 5 The spell list also includes healing, blasting, mind altering and Necromancy - it's limited but broad.

You can reset your focus on a day by day basis - use Legacy Weapon to tweak your sword to be holy before facing demons, undead bane before you go into a crypt... then when you come back to town switch on Glorious Presence through your helm.

TL:DR - Utility is your trademark, that and flexibility. You can contribute in all scenarios - plus the way in which you get to do it is freaking cool.


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Excaliburproxy wrote:
Stuff

You aren't alone - I seem to be one of the few that thinks the Occultist retains decent melee utility... but you've got to think beyond only the damage they're dealing.

Will you deal as much damage as a fighter - probably not, but do you need to? - also probably not.

You are still able to retain decent melee potential, massive flexibility (as by changing your focus investments you can turn from a combat based to a social beast with Glorious Presence), and while the spell list is limited, you have much more high level spells than a typical spontaneous caster. (Eg. at level 13 you get access to five 5th level spells, where most would only have two).

Could it use a couple more combat boosters? - probably, a few combat spell boosters, a psychic version of Arcane Strike would help to mitigate that gap as well. Maybe a Focus Power that allows a Spellstrike?

The class is fine with 4+Int as it's an Int based caster - it'll have as many or more skill points than your average Bard, which is fine.


I hear what you're saying... but neither of you actually gave a number that the occultist needed to get to.

You've listed a great number of things that other classes are capable of, and the spells that they can cast, the benefits that they can give to the party, etc, etc, etc.

But neither of you have said what you'd consider the Occultist itself to need to be considered 'effective as a martial'.

I'm not trying to be obtuse here, just trying to realistically get a figure of what added bonuses you'd expect to see in order to get a 'tick' from your side.

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