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I've just binge watched Season 2. Twice. I generally hate sequels but this one completely destroyed any expectations I had.

The game opens on a village where people are going missing and a young girl is confused. Her father, a bucolic middle-aged woodcutter is fond of calling people "Great, fibbling rats!" when angry with them.

The girl has been bullied and it turns out her bullies are the ones disappearing. Then the rats start showing up. But when the rats are captured and done in, they turn out to be people. "Great, Fibbling Rats" begins appearing around town.

The girl disappears. Her father is the number one suspect. The PCs have to deal with the rats, gather clues, and go find the girl.

What's really going on is that the young lady is a changeling on the verge of turning into a hag. There's already a coven in place but one of the hags is secretly the girls' mom. She intends to use her daughter to replace one of the coven members to give her more of an edge on the control of the three.

So the coven used a Witch member of the group with the Cauldron hex to make potions of Baleful Polymorph that the girl was tricked into feeding to her bullies. The PCs have the strong possibility of foiling her becoming a hag in which case she becomes a Level 1 Witch NPC who can help the party and feed them more missions.

Meanwhile, whether they foil the girl's transformation or not the plot of the girl's mother is discovered and the coven fractures for a time into three individuals, each with their own agenda. As the campaign wears on however the coven makes amends and re-forms, coincidentally around the time that the PCs begin to get to power levels where they can face such challenges.

You'll love this one.

Many many years ago playing 1e AD&D I had a player try & trick me. I figured out his scheme & had a nasty surprise waiting for him at the end. :)

Once upon a time Brian read some article about how to become a Lich in a Dragon Magazine issue. He decided that he wanted his next character to become a lich.
He made two assumptions.
1) That whatever he read was automatically in play. (wrong!)
2) That I'd never agree to let him become a Lich if he just asked. (wrong!)

So from day one of this campaign he set about making that secretly happen.
He made a Cleric of Thoth (Egyptian god of knowledge)- presumably so that he wouldn't have to find anything out about the process during play. Because you know, cleric of knowledge.... Thus avoiding asking me if he could eventually become a Lich.
He carefully planned out at what lv he'd MC into Wizard (he needed some spell or other) & how many lvs he'd sink into it.
He did everything he could in game to slowly amass the requisite spells, materials, & ingredients for the Lich potion and a phylacerty.
And he rose through all the desired Cleric/Wizard lvs. (It's AD&D, do you have any idea how much XP that is???)

This took nearly 3 years of weekly play (about 5 hrs per session).
And in all that time he never once mentioned his grand plan to me, the DM.
That was a mistake.

For a good long while (about 1/2 the campaign)I had no idea what he was up to. I hadn't read that issue of Dragon. I just knew that he was collecting some weird components.
Well, eventually I got a "Best Of Dragon" compilation. And one of the articles in it detailed the steps to become a Lich. Steps & components that seemed really familiar....
And so I decided that that WASN'T how liches were made in my world. But I'd let Brian continue down his chosen path as long as he liked & if he ever said anything about his plan only then would I let him know the truth.
He never said anything.

And so after almost 3 years of gaming the big day arrives. Brian's...

So... why?

I mean, why did you NOT let him have what he was planning? Why didn't YOU talk to HIM since you figured out his plan?

I don't mean to be inflammatory here but speaking as a player who got burned similarly by the same GM... TWICE... basically for deciding to play good characters in dark worlds, it really ruins the game.

Both games were 1e. The first I was a female elf fighter/wizard. I was even made a minor noble in the game. My "secret plan" was to unite the elven clans but I knew I couldn't do it outright since a demon lord was running about mucking things up. I used as much subterfuge as I could muster.

My GM was (I found out later) cheesed off that I was playing some of the players off one another to accomplish my goal. The other players figured it out and played along. Basically I think my GM was just mad that I was monopolizing his plot, however as the game got up close to double digit levels he got things back on track - by plucking out one of my character's eyes, replacing that with a magic gem, but then letting the magic gem be a curse that fed info back to the demon.

So by the end of the game I've got a demon-killing artifact sword, all the players who were aligned with me have all been coerced or outright dominated into serving the demon so I've had to fight through my own party, and I finally go toe-to-toe with the demon, who I defeat.

Then... the saving throw. Demon's about to die, I'm about to strike the final blow, and I blow a save triggered by the artifact that NO ONE, not even the greatest sages in the world, knew was in the sword.

When I failed I came to a thousand years into a dystopian future. The elf forest kingdoms had been obliterated to a desert, all elves were either hunted down or marked as pariahs, and my own character's name was a curse word.

... and one of my legs had been replaced with a combat tail.

That's just one of 2 stories I had from this GM. The second one involved me learning my lesson, going to him hat in hand and spelling out the custom character I wanted to make (combo of wizard and thief called a Barrier Mage), getting permission for it and some new spells from this GM, and even getting enthusiasm on how much my ideas would bring to this game, only to be the target of a succubus' charm ability IN MY SLEEP on the very first game session.

What followed was 6 levels of my character being the secret proxy of the main villain without any ability for me to stop it or even know in character it was happening. My "plan" in the game was to go after a dragon of legend but miraculously the dragon seemed informed at all times of every move our party made.

At one point we bugged out into the wilderness without any supplies. We were caught unawares and had to flee. However in "secondary skills" my barrier mage just happened to roll exceptionally well: TWO skills - Hunter/Fisher and Leather Worker. So with some skills in the wilds I get to roll an Int check and NAIL it! First good roll in a few sessions so I find a big, beautiful pond of potable water near a cave, a stream babbling through the rocks that's crystal clean...

...except for the freaking HORDE of xvarts hiding inches below the waters' surface and just inside the cave entrance.

I'm instantly grappled and am being choked (no spells now), then I'm targeted by the others who drag me into the cave. My party comes to bail me out, melee ensues. I'm tossed down a slanting vertical shaft with the intent of putting me in their dungeon but I cast one of my unique barrier spells, make a baton between the walls of the shaft and grab it as I'm sliding under to stop myself.

Hooray! I'm saved!

... until 7 xvarts who, currently engaged in combat 20' away up the vertical shaft notice me and decide "HE'S the one we should be focused on, not this dwarf fighter in front of us!" They descend down the shaft, beat me unconscious and I end up in the dungeon anyway.

So in the end my party nearly dies coming to save me. We escape the xvart dungeon, everyone with 1 HP, and race into the forest at night. Still no supplies. No treasure. The entire party is angry and they're all pointing their fingers at ME for bungling into the pool.

We run through the dark for hours, no sign that we're being followed by the xvarts. The DM lets me make another Int roll to make and camouflage a campsite out of branches in the middle of the night but HUZZAH! Another good roll for ME! We have a camp, it's hidden under brush and leaves, we set a watch, we lay down to rest without ANY evidence that the xvarts followed us...

...and they were on us seconds later knowing exactly where we were.

Now we eventually survived the xvarts but that was how the campaign went for almost 9 levels until I threw up my hands in defeat. The dragon was nowhere in sight, none of my barrier spells seemed to ever work or, like in the case of the xvart lair when they worked they made me an instant target for every monster in the scene. I died twice and the second time they left me buried in a pine box but the DM spontaneously resurrected me - didn't get me out of the ground, just made me alive in my coffin from which I spent an entire game session escaping.

So after ALL of that I got bitten by a vampire and died a third time, so I quit. The DM raised me as a vampire under his control. One of the other players comes to me: "Man, why didn't you ever actually USE any of those spells?" I ask him what he's talking about. It seems that, in my absence, all the obstacles the DM had put around my barrier spells all came off and they were working as intended all along, much to the chagrin of the other PCs.

When that campaign wrapped I was left, stranded on an island (can't cross water b/c vampire), at the bottom of a semi-active volcano, guarded by the red dragon of legend that I'd vowed to steal from at the outset of the game.

I don't know WHY my DM did these things to me, other than we were kids and his ego may have been hurt or something. I wasn't actively trying to derail things in either game and in fact with the barrier mage went out of my way to work WITH the DM from the beginning.

So I guess the moral of MY story is: DM's/GM's - talk to your players

Nobody's mentioned Shelyn yet, so I will. The fluff around her dogma suggests that she appears to potential worshippers in the midst of their darkest hour, like in a foxhole in the heat of battle.

It might be kind of a cool backstory actually.

You were a grizzled, mercenary warrior, pillaging everything you could and carelessly using every vice including other people. You were a cad and a scoundrel with nothing but conquest and oblivion before you.

Then came The Battle of Mengler's Tor.

Your unit was betrayed and besieged by foe and ally alike. You cried out to your lord Gorum but of course your pleas fell on deaf ears. As men fell like cord wood and the sodden ground stank of blood you ran to the tree line, only to tumble down, into the dark of a shallow cave, your enemies hot on your trail.

But then, as all hope seemed lost the last rays of sunshine found their way to you, beyond you, into a single, multifaceted crystal exposed on the cave wall. The light refracted into a riot of color dancing across your vision like a playful child begging for you to chase them.

You thought you heard the songs of beautiful birds on the wind then, and the laughter in your mother's eyes. The scent of the lilacs from her garden teased your memory. Something in your heart gave way and you were at once unafraid, for at the moment of your fate you were reminded of all the living beauty in this world.

That wonderment filled you and for the first time since you were a wee child you were awed by something greater than yourself. Then from outside, the panting taunts of your pursuers. You had been discovered and now they would come down for you, to claim their horrible prize. But let them come, for the grin on your face and the tear in your eye were all the defense you would ever need.

From the lip of the cavern above came the opening salvo: a barrage of sling bullets driving you back against the cavern wall. Several ricocheted off your armor, your shield, but two struck hard and true, fracturing your knee and gashing your brow. Blood mingled with the tears then as you collapsed to your one good knee. They were there, encircling you, readying to drive axe and spear down through flesh and bone. You hoisted your shield one last time, a feeble attempt to delay the inevitable.

In that moment you marveled: so much beauty in this world, and only now do I wish to know it. That's when the glaive appeared.

The sudden clang shattered your dulling senses. Your consciousness would only remain a few moments more but in those precious seconds a lifetime of magnificence was revealed. A spectacular glaive, as beautiful as it was deadly, was dancing of it's own accord. It blocked and parried each attack away, returning each blow with two of its own. As it swung you could swear you heard a woman's voice, or perhaps more songbirds on a summer's breeze, and as your enemies fell or fled all you could do was marvel at the beauty of it all.

You awoke hours later. Your wounds were nothing more than throbbing aches over your tired but living body. There was no sign of the glaive or the birds or the scent of lilacs, but the memory of it all was so real, so vivid. You knew beyond all reason or logic that something had visited its will upon you, saved you despite your repugnant soul. You had been a despised and despicable man, but this grace had nonetheless chosen you to be spared.

"There is beauty in this world, if I would only take a moment to regard it" you thought. This singular mantra carried you up, out of the earthen hole and into the mourning midnight moon. The orb's silver light, like a pall upon the fallen left strewn on the moors before Mengler's Tor, gave you pause for a moment. In that moment, when in the face of all that horror you found grace and beauty, your new life truly began.

Since then you have curbed your carousing ways. For certain there are still moments of vice for even the highest soul yet stumbles, but always there is the reminder that even in folly there is a beauty to this weary world. You are not alone anymore for The Rose Eternal blooms with you, in you and through you.

So when I was a kid there was a D&D coloring book I got for a birthday. In said book was a tavern scene with a sign that reads The Green Dragon but somehow me and my brothers confused it with the griffon on a later page and started calling it the Green Gryphon Inn.

The name stuck.

Since I was 9 years old and started running my own games there has been an iteration of the Green Gryphon in every world I've made. Generally these are 2-3 stories and the amenities vary with the region, however they always feature the following:

1. A Halfling with an alliterated name: Bindul Bosnystock, Ungla Underfoot, Igor Iverbottle, etc.

2. Dwarven ale: normally I stay away from clichés but this is literally ALWAYS there!

3. Bath services: I think in 30+ years of games I've only had folks use the bath at the Green Gryphon like, a dozen times maybe, but they're always offered.

The best campaign was a 1e/2e game when a buddy of mine convinced me to let him play a goblin with Popeye arms. He and the Halfling homesteader in the group set out to earn enough cash to keep the local Green Gryphon in business. They did so well they bought the place, then they hijacked the campaign in order to franchise the inn.

For a while in my lands there was a Green Gryphon Inn scattered every 30 miles from horizon to horizon. The pair of PCs went about seeking recipes of legend, talented bartenders, establishing huge plantations for food and hops, and even at one point took over a pocket dimension to enhance logistics. It was... kinda ridiculous, but great fun!

Railroads aren't always bad. In fact, I find most players purposely put themselves on one. I have a group of gamers that only meets once a week for short periods of time. Also it often comes up that one of the players can't make a session since they're on weeknights. Finally these are all old-skool type players who've all expressed nostalgia for campaigns ranging randomly through Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms.

I figured this was the ideal place for a "West Marches" style campaign. I drew out a city and hinterlands map on notebook paper, then laid out a second hex map with a few hexes filled in. I proudly unveiled everything and set the first few hooks in place, then I triumphantly set back and waited.

... and waited, and waited.

My players didn't know how to self start. I added an "adventurer's guild" and forced them off on the first mission. Once completed, they only wanted to follow up on the mysterious tower at the first locale. Then the kobolds from the first locale. Then it was back to the guild to put some pieces together about a dragon the kobolds were worshipping.

I mean don't get me wrong: they were having fun and so was I so I'm not complaining, but the game couldn't have been designed more "sandbox" without playing in a physical sandbox. Despite that initial setup the players forced a linear story to play out until frankly I couldn't think of anything else for it so I gave them a side quest to do with one PC's backstory.

TL/DR. I guess my point is just that often folks engineer a logical, straight-line approach to their game out of habit or necessity, regardless of a "sandbox" setting.

So... ALL of the leaders are evil to some degree? Is this kind of a dark world? Is the intention that, down the road, the PCs will get embroiled in these politics? I'm asking because if ALL rulers are some level of evil and the players want to be heroes, they might find it a bit overwhelming when literally everyone is a villain.

That being said, it sounds like you have a LOT of villainy to work with. Even though they're all "sensible" evil I'm guessing that some might have schemes to usurp one another. An easy out in this situation would be to have one of the Caliph's "party members" reach out to the PCs as a mysterious benefactor in order to manipulate them into dealing with the Caliph for them.

Ironically I had a player last night telling me the only acceptable way to end fights as a wizard (PCs in my game are level 4) is to cast web, fog cloud, and other save-or-suck effects to funnel all enemies into the barbarian since, y'know... she can Cleave.

I sent him a link to this guide. Specialized/Empowered Burning Hands. I'm sorry, WHAT low-level undead minions were you talking about?

I've skulked these boards for years. I took a year of personal... garbage and have just started to re-emerge the past few weeks.

Succubus in a grapple: hello old friend

So in another thread the OP was asking why all adventures seem to start in a tavern. Whether they do or not, every settlement I've ever designed/run/played from had one. But that got me thinking - are they ALWAYS just a bar with rooms for rent?

I don't know how many hits this thread will get or even if its all that interesting, but I'm looking for variants to the "standard" tavern. For the purposes of this thread, the "standard" will be defined as a single common room, separate rooms for rent for PCs to sleep in and some kind of cellar area for storing extra alcohol/foodstuffs.

Here are my two right off the bat:

Auntie Mymm's Pies: this eatery is merely the parlor, dining room and kitchen of Old Widow Mymm. She is a kindly human, pleasant to the regulars and generous with the gravies in her pies. She serves kidney, beef and mutton pies for lunch, dinner and supper. She also has an arrangement with the Brewhammer Brewery, serving their pales and lagers with her savories. Seating is limited but turns quickly and there are always a few who know to ask for "Auntie's Precious;" a robust confection infused with the widow's own witchcraft. Although only the highest merchants and nobles can afford these pies (50 GP) they swear that once consumed all their aches and pains are gone! (note: "Auntie's Precious" is a Cure Light Wounds potion; GM may add other level 1 potions as desired)

Croak and Whistle Teahouse: this rather unique establishment is built into the hollow and boughs of an ancient, gnarled willow. A flight of steps rises through the taproots to a small-sized door while the wafting aroma of dozens of heady brews hangs upon the lintel like a worn old coat. Inside are a handful of modest tables fit only for a party of four. Each features a ceramic plate in the center. A staircase exits out the side of the hollow to ring its way around the girth of the tree to the decking above.

The Croak and Whistle, established and run by a grippli ranger and his associate - a Halfling cleric of Gozreh, serves only teas alongside a host of sweets, cakes and other pastries with which to pair the steeped beverages. They boast no less than at least 99 varieties; some are classic teas found throughout the region, others are hybrids created by the dual proprietors, and some more unique flavors they claim to have discovered on their adventures through this world and others.

With the nature of the fare served at the Teahouse customers tend to linger for hours. Attending either the breakfast or high tea at the Croak and Whistle is always a social affair as patrons tend to wander through one anothers' conversations like so many wisps of steam from a rattling teapot. (Note: if PCs make a point to be on hand for either the Breakfast or High Tea service at this establishment they gain a +1 Circumstance bonus to any Gather Information roll made)

I've had one item in three campaigns. Recently my players found a Belt of Dexterity +4 that was actually crafted by a korred, a mischievous hill fey. Korreds have overly long hair they can animate and "tickle" enemies with. The creature had woven his own shorn beard into this belt and the curse was that, once the wearer entered their first combat wearing it the belt would start tickling them and essentially deliver no bonus.

I thought I was all cute and flavorful. Then my players rolled to I.D. the device and I actually reviewed the rules on detecting/analyzing a cursed item. Long story boring, unless I wanted to be a total jag they rolled so high that they could not only identify the belt but the curse as well.

So my cool, flavorful item was "it's a belt of Dex +4; put it on for a fight and it tickles you. Let's get a remove curse, depower the thing and then hock the gems in the buckle for some cash."

To try and salvage it I gave my players an alternative curse removal that would leave the Dex +4 intact. If a korred or a fey more powerful than one of those creatures were willing they could remove the curse using their First World power. Of course, the party would have to do this fey patron a small favor first. Currently my party is heading into the wilderness to track down a fey they'd had dealings with in a previous adventure...

Some ideas of religious ceremonies:

Pharasma

1. Baptism: having both aspects of birth AND death, this rite is very important to the Pharasmin. It involves clothing the infant in the colors of the faith, anointing it with holy water and the parents and family swearing oaths to give the child every opportunity to grow and prosper.

2. Holy Day of Remembrance or All Souls Day: this holy day owes not only to the dead but also to the lore of the departed. Sacred ledgers which account the deeds and life of ancestors are carried through the streets; sometimes these are accompanied by images, icons or favored items of the dead. The processors also carry prayer wheels as they march to the graves of their ancestors where final songs of celebration are sung in their honor. If it rains during this holy day (usually held in mid-spring) it is considered a blessing from the Mother of Souls

Iomedae

1. Oath of the Devoted Blade: the final oath sworn by initiates into the faith, petitioners are brought before the altar at midnight where they are instructed to kneel and hold their swords out before them with both arms; candidates are not permitted to leave this position until the first rays of sunlight are seen on the horizon. While enduring this final trial the hopefuls are to continuously chant the Valors of the Inheritor.

2. Swearing in ceremony: new barristers, judges, and other legal or political notables must swear an oath on the Acts of Iomedae. While no spells are invoked to GUARANTEE the fidelity of the new office holder, there is a symbolic swearing of loyalty to the tenets of the faith - honor, integrity, and the good of all above personal glory.

Torag

1. Anointing of Shields: clerics of Torag are often called upon to travel out to new fortifications, mines, or forge ovens to deliver a blessing to these constructions at their inaugurations. Shield makers or those who employ such devices however often prostrate themselves before the Toragdan. For a small donation to the church a Forge Priest(ess) will perform a ritualized blessing, painting the shield in holy oils and calling forth prayers in the Toragdan Throat Singing technique. The rite culminates with a solid blow from a solid stone mallet; if the shield rings true the blessing is complete but if the sound is dull or worse if the device cracks or dents it is considered a very bad omen

2. Braids of Adulthood: a tradition begun under the orthodox dwarves of the Toragdan, this has continued into all of the cultures who worship the Forge Father. The hair of the adolescent is purposely allowed to grow continuously for one year; in the case of males this includes any facial hair they are capable of producing. When the time comes, depending on the birthday of the adolescent and their race, they are brought before the holy anvil where they must recite the Riddle of Steel from memory. While they do so they are blindfolded and their hair is ritualistically braided, each knot and pattern symbolic of their chosen profession and path before them. Once they complete the recitation of the Riddle the adolescent is immediately pronounced an adult in the eyes of Torag; this is generally followed by a modest celebration of feasting, drinking and other church-permitted carousing

Cayden Cailean

1. The First Drink: while the Toragdan have a very ritualized adulthood ceremony, the Caydenites have a far less structured rite. It is however just as important to those of true faith in the Lucky Drunk. The adolescent is led to the bar where an initiate in the faith submits The Most Legendary Toast - an entirely subjective descriptor for a short speech of equal parts roast and admiration of the adolescent. After the Toast the young faithful is expected to drain their First Drink to the last drop whereupon they are pronounced an adult. More often than not the drink selected is the most alcoholic the initiate can find

2. Share the Luck: whenever a true faithful of the Caydenites is particularly blessed, whether by a good night at the tables, a packed house at the inn or escaping death with great wealth and an even better story, the faithful are encouraged to share a tithe of their luck with the less fortunate. This is usually performed in the buying of an entire tavern a round or two; other forms of charity however would be to dole bread and thin wine out to the needy, a donation of gold and goods to the local orphanage, or perhaps use spells or skills free of charge in wineries, breweries or other such businesses. Upon the completion of their charity the faithful are expected to make a final prayer of thanks to the Accidental God, offering a toast in his honor at a local shrine

Sarenrae

1. Dance of the New Dawn: the first morning of the new year is met with jubilant celebration by Sarenites. As the grey of Falsedawn paints the sky the faithful gather outside to greet the first dawn. At the moment of the first sunlight their swords are drawn forth in a salute to the Dawnflower, then ritualistically sheathed and knotted for peace. What follows is an hours-long ceremony of dance, ululating and praising songs thanking the Everlight for the renewal of the land.

2. Confession of Sins: those who seek redemption may attend a private audience with a priestess/priest of Sarenrae. The penitent meet one on one with their confessor between noon and evening meal. They are seated outdoors where they are given a ritualized greeting that also serves to encourage truth from the petitioner. An oath of confidentiality is then delivered and finally the confession is made. Once finished the priestess/priest pronounces a suitable penance to be carried out by the sinner at which point all wrongdoing will be absolved.

Abadar

1. Rounding Day: in every ledger there are fractions of coppers and silvers which must be negotiated into the accounting of the church. One day of the year fortunes are ritualistically reversed; a gong is sounded after midday meal and all Holy Accountants are expected to round in the favor of the clients and the needy. These fractions are totaled and, if need be rounded again to nearest gold piece whereupon the remainder is sealed in a ceremonial flatbox. This tithe is then distributed out as a dole just before the evening meal

2. Holy Day of Undertakings: while many journeys or ventures receive blessings by the Abadaran, many businesses or guilds hold their Commencement ceremonies on this auspicious holiday. The pontiffs of the faith hold service at the church in the form of a prayer breakfast; following this there is one hour of Sacred Networking over pots of blessed tea or coffee; leading into the midday meal is the Producing of the Contracts and Diplomas wherein lay members are encouraged to seal deals or receive their signed accreditation of graduation from guilds, colleges and other apprenticeships; finally there is the Luncheon of Power, a celebratory meal over which church pontiffs preside. Once all of these rites have been completed lay members are allowed to take the day off from the rest of their labors

Gozreh

1. Rite of the Tempest: a fertility rite for the Gozren, this ceremony only occurs during the most brutal of summer storms. Because it is weather dependent it is generally only called forth hours before it is to commence. Faithful are encouraged to gather somewhere that is at once protected from the elements but also delivers full view of the gathering storm, such as a cave or grotto. Once assembled a ritualized bacchanal is performed, the priest(ess) leading certain dances, songs and other activities meant to invoke the union of water and sky until the climax of the passing storm. Children conceived by this ritual are considered blessed by the Wind and the Waves

2. Return to the Earth: while the Pharasmin are the purveyors of burial and the dead, there are some sects of Gozren who adhere to the old ways of delivering their dead to the natural forces of entropy and decay. The corpse is anointed with holy oils and final rites of thanks, well wishes and invocations of security in their journey to the next life are delivered. At this point the corpse is wrapped in a white shroud and entombed in a natural grave of earth and loam. Some, such as peoples of the jungles or gripili of the swamps chose to lower the dead into bogs or mires instead

Shelyn

1. Celebration of Love's Union: weddings in the Shelynite faith are a lavish affair. They begin early in the day with ritualized processions, guests seated in the utmost comfort amid flowers and fanfare. One partner is delivered to the altar first, their face obscured by multicolored scarves. The other partner then processes in, usually accompanied by either a coir or other musical accompaniment, at which point the first partner is ceremonially revealed. Both of the betrothed have previously been made over with the most elaborate costumes, makeup and other beautifying techniques of the culture. Finally a ceremony lasting at least an hour is held with prayers, vows by the betrothed to one another, and the exchanging of tokens - rings, ribbons, or even matching glaives. The celebration following the wedding is just as lush, involving costume changes, ritualized dances and as grand a feast as the community can deliver.

2. The Holy Rose of Battle: this blessing generally occurs before tournaments, jousts or pugilistic matches though it has also been performed more solemnly before the outset of a military battle or campaign. The priestess/priest of Shelyn takes up a purely ceremonial glaive, one with a rosebud etched on either side of the blade. Songs invoking beauty and life are sung, followed by a leaping, twirling dance. During this dance the glaive and its wielder soar through the air; both are adorned with a rainbow of flowing clothes, ribbons, and other fetishes. Finally a blessing is issued to all participants, even the enemies of the faithful, that they may find the beauty that waits for them at battles' end

Desna

1. Ceremony of Foot Washing: the Desnan do not have many rituals as they are a people who revere the chaos and uncertainty of the next horizon. However they have performed this rite since the dawn of their faith and it is used not only to celebrate the end of a day's journey but the commencement of new ventures. The celebrant kneels before the one to receive the blessing, issuing prayers over a sacred vessels of scented oils, thin wine, and finally pure water. They issue the same prayers over a blue and white towel. The footwear of the traveler is ceremonially removed, the feet are bathed in first the wine, then the water, and then they are wiped clean and dried with the towel. Finally the celebrant massages the scented oil into the feet of the traveler to complete the rite

2. Hymns of the Final Journey: as with the Gozren, some adherents of the old faith of Desna have their own way of saying goodbye to their departed. The corpse of the fallen is placed on a pyre or perhaps a raft that will be set ablaze. This rite is always performed at night, preferably under the light of the moon and stars. Prayers of last rites are issued and a pair of gold coins (silver or copper, or even rare wood depending on the culture) are placed on the eyes of the deceased. The corpse is then dressed in a midnight blue shawl with white, star-like designs. Finally the stack upon which the corpse has been laid is lit and as the soul of the departed rises with the smoke, a hymn is delivered - preferred songs are The Road Goes Ever On or The Greatest Adventure, though others such as Stairway to Heaven may also be used depending on the celebrants involved

So that's just 2 rites per deity but hopefully that inspires you to consider others. Basically just look over the write-ups of the deities in the CRB, on the Pathfinder Wiki or in other sources. Check out not only their Domains and Areas of Concern, but also their Worshipers, Sacred Animals or even their Dogma.

For example, did you know that Torag has a badger as his Sacred Animal? I could imagine a Groundhog Day kind of ritual - a ceremonial badger has been released into an area and is allowed to burrow into the earth. Depending on how the little fella digs his hole, where he throws his dirt or if he turns and pokes his head back out, the omen can either be favorable or ill for the return of spring.

You could do something with the Familiar or PC Class Archetypes:

"What do you mean, I'm just a FIGMENT of his/her imagination? I can think and feel; I'm as real as the next raven!"

"We formed a support group: Former Paladin Loved Ones Now Soulbound, or F-PLONS for short. We not only help each other through this difficult period of limbo between our mortal death and the time our souls can actually reach the afterlives we all became holy warriors to express faith in, but we also do outreach, counseling living paladins on the dangers of being the kin or loving partners of wizards"

These sort of go along with the "dismissal" in favor of Improved Familiars.

oh hai fakey!

The mother-lovin T...O...Z! Just throwing on a cloak isn't enough of a disguise, I'd know that sardonic smile anywhere!

So I just popped into the Settlements thread on the General Discussion board and learned that the CRB has some solid numbers on guards per city. I'm wondering if anyone has similar numbers for things like how many nobles for a kingdom, how many soldiers per noble or kingdom, and a good way to divide up the political titles?

I never could get a handle on nobles in real life. So in feudal societies, you had nobles based on the right to own land, but how much land made you one kind of noble or another? Like why would someone be a baron instead of a knight, or a count?

As for military I ask that because I've got a couple players wanting to take Profession: Soldier in a new campaign and they want to dive into the minutia of how big the armies are and how they're divvied up throughout the kingdom. They want to be able to use the skill as they level up to work with said military and perhaps at mid or higher levels even call upon favors from the rank and file.

Let Me Google That For You is just about the epitome of passive aggressive forum douchbaggery KC, especially when the question was already answered.

I expected better from you.

I didn't. He's a kobold for goodness sake. I feel like if I'd clicked on anything my computer would've sprayed Choking Powder in my face.

Backstories. R_Chance touches on them up thread. And character death too. Yes, some folks are of the opinion that old school = PC fatalities and a lack of backstory.

This is why I think "old school" is completely subjective.

I have roughly as many deaths in PF as I did back in AD&D when we were in HS. That is to say; not that many. Also I still remember the elaborate backgrounds my players used to make, like the half-elven prince of a fallen empire cursed to wander and losing all his skills reducing him to a level 1 druid/fighter/magic-user and others.

People always say "YMMV" and I wholeheartedly agree. Inevitably my experience is NEVER the same as my current buddies. I have one guy that produced a binder with 2 pocket folders from back in the day. One side was full of pre-rolled AD&D characters, the other side was stuffed with six different dead characters from ONE campaign. Said campaign only made it to sixth level.

REALLY? 1 dead guy per level? I fudged dice as my group's DM so PCs would live time and again because my players had put so much into crafting them. A couple of my campaigns got so high in level I had whole lineages of famed adventurers, from grandfather to grandson. Not because the characters died and the same stats were used for Bergen Frothmeyer the Second, but because the character would make to about 11th level, retire, and the player would want to keep playing in a reboot to level 1.

So yeah, my MMV. A lot.

I think "old school" just means however you played as a kid. Whatever thoughts, feelings, experiences and ideas you had back in the day when you first started. It's really nothing more than that to me. That makes the term entirely personal. One player's "old school" is another's "killer GM" or whatever.

And as for new players and kids being raised on MMO's: my kids at 11 and 13 were raised on video games. I'm not ashamed to say that they have logged more hours on some of the kinder, gentler online or PS3 RPGs than I have.

They also routinely come up with cool plans, engage in silly roleplay and generally are more cinematic than any other players I game with, with one exception. There's a group of thirty-somethings I play with who never played RPGs having only done board gaming and MMOs. I have played two sessions with them so far and am blown away by the weird, cool crap they try every game without any thought to HOW they will succeed at said crap.

So I don't think youth, saturation in video games or a generation has anything to do with how much folks do or don't do in the game or with their roleplaying. My suspicion is that it's about their newness to the game.

Players I game with seem to have more enthusiasm to assume a role and try crazy stuff with the less system mastery they have. They don't know HOW to, say, grab a vine, swing over a bog, and chop a bullywug's head off with their axe just as the foe comes shooting up out of the water in a Charge, but they know they want to so they just say that they do that and leave it to me to figure the how.

Other players though with extreme system mastery dictate a litany of skill checks, feats and powers they'll use to inevitably land at learning everything about, say, a witch's plan to infiltrate a village by slowly poisoning patrons of the feast hall with an addictive substance in the food. Said plans are meticulous, suggest possible DCs and are well reasoned. They also involve certain Gather Information scenes which the player handwaves with skill checks that their character has been specifically built to succeed at.

These are 2 different ways of playing. Neither is bad. Neither came from a kid raised on video games. Both are grown adults my age (forties); the bullywug-chopper has only RPG'd a few times and rarely in PF while the diplomancer has been at this for years and has a lot of 3.5 and PF experience.

I just want to play so both are welcome at my table. I picture both differently in my head, even though neither has ever given me a proper description of their character. The female barbarian with her axe, a half-orc; for some reason I picture her with red hair, wild eyes and a blood-smear on her smirking cheek dressed all in crazy hide armor. The other one is an elf wizard with a thrush; I picture him like some stuffy British TV interviewer from the 60's and 70's with pale hair and complexion, really well polished clothing and gear, and very properly de-briefing the folks he diplomacizes.

Whatever. TL/DR; my point is that all of this is subjective. Old school gamers; good versus bad roleplaying; how we enjoy our hobby. All of my experiences above are all anecdotal so of course YMMV and I expect, as R_Chance does that yours does vary. Wildly.

Feh. Kids today, with their music and their pants...

I know right? And their new-fangled desire to build to the numbers and kill everything in the dungeon.

...

Oh wait, that was my friends back in HS. And College. And after college. And right now.

Stinkin kids...

Yeah, there's this idea that AD&D and related systems were more roleplaying-friendly. People are confusing imagination with story.

Imagination: Not to be confused with creativity (which has slightly more "new-school" connotations), imagination was heavily encouraged by older editions. Instead of tasks being outlined by your stats, you had to handle them "manually". Examples are diplomacy or trap disabling. The downside to an imagination-focused game is it tends to go against roleplaying the character you want to play (if I can't talk my way out of a fight, neither can my "silver-tongued" rogue). Imagination is a fun feature, though, and one of the key strengths of old-school games.

Story: Story is heavily encouraged by newer editions. It is easier to play the exact type of character you want, and thanks to lower mortality, it is easier to play out that character's arc without worrying about a fatality in the first encounter they're in. This also frees you up to make riskier choices and not play the most optimal build possible (though some degree of usefulness is necessary).

People who find that their groups don't roleplay as much under newer systems are likely just running into groups less interested in roleplaying.

I love everything you're saying here KC Barbeque. It also occurs to me that one of the things that always vexed me in older editions is that I was always a story-driven guy. I had lots of characters I wanted to see go to the end and lots of villains I wanted to develop in front of my players. My friends however were always more imaginative in that they just wanted to keep making up more and more stuff. Dirigibles with machine guns; plane-hopping rods; a magically awakened shark army.

None of their imagination ever seemed to go with my story. Since there was always more of them than there was of me, those were the games we played. Since imagination has a lot less rules and structure than story a lot of my games were just my players arguing with me about how their characters SHOULD have all this cool stuff.

I read the Deathly Hollows, and I cried when Snape's fate was revealed, his life explained. I didn't cry because Rowling is an incredible author, though she is. I cried because I imagined Alan Rickman playing Snape.

Then I saw the movie. I am not ashamed to say I let the tears flow again even though my kids were sitting right there with me. He was THAT good.

The first time I ever saw Mr Rickman on screen was when my brother rented Die Hard. "Hey, it's got that guy from Moonlighting and Blind Date in it!" Then Hans Gruber appeared on screen. We were fans of quoting lines but the only ones we ever used from Die Hard were from the villain.

Next I watched Robin Hood. EVERY one of my friends made fun of me. Despite their cajoling, I saw it TWICE in the theater.

I didn't see Alan Rickman again until Dogma. One of my favorite scenes in ANY biblical film is Rickman talking about telling Jesus he's the son of god. "...I had to tell this little boy that he was God's only son and that it meant a life of persecution and crucifixion at the hands of the very people he came to enlighten and redeem. He begged me to 'take it all back'... and if I'd had the power I would have."

My eyes are misty just typing this.

So F U cancer! I know it's stupid, and childish, but I'm saying it anyway. You took my 20 year old brother, three of my grandparents, 2 of my aunts, crippled my uncle, stole a brother-in-law and have claimed or damaged a dozen other people in my life.

I F-ing HATE cancer. I'm so sick and tired of this stupid disease. I give to foundations every year, run 5ks, and talk with folks about the disease so I feel like I'm doing what I can. I'M DOING MY PART UNIVERSE! Time for you to start picking up the slack!

... I'm sorry, this just sucks.

Alan Rickman was a great actor. He could make even a role like Metatron in a silly, comic book version of religion, grab your attention. I bet he was an amazing human being to know in real life. I hope he is at peace, and in a place where he is loved for all time.

I'll throw in a second nod towards Raging Swan Press. Everything Creighton makes is geared to save GM's time in prep. They have books of villages, different humanoid tribes, environmental "dressing" books, etc.

41. Tidal wave: the weirdest one I ever ran was a dungeon on a Cliffside overlooking the sea below. The first room is a tomb with a secret door predictably under a sepulcher. By opening the secret door a pump begins pulling massive amounts of seawater up and starting the wave. What follows is part dungeon, part Chase Scene as you must speed towards the end collecting whatever clues, treasure and info you can along a winding stairway with galleries until the bottom which is an enormous, flooded hall. Finally you cross the water to the final tomb where upon defeating the last obstacle the room seals and begins flooding. Ironic that the faux-stone sarcophagus in the last tomb is in fact made of wood and large enough for four, Medium sized creatures...

So, here's something cool. I recently got asked to run a PF game for four grown ups who'd never played RPGs or hadn't since HS. I started running it and WHAM! All four grown adults, in their THIRTIES, began acting like what I call "old school" gamers. They're running around looting everything, hack n slash, with not a ton of thought to plot or character. Very much like me and my buddies playing 1e games in HS.

Then I realized something. For these ladies and gentlemen, Pathfinder is THEIR "old school." It also made me realize something else: GODS am I OLD!

Try being 41, with 2 very active kids, and then try drinking/keeping up with/gaming with 4 30 year olds on new years eve. I spent ALL DAY Saturday recovering. On a side note, do you know if your liver can cry?

Anyway, I suppose Old School is just a state of being, a sort of Nirvana that gamers enter when first starting their love affair with RPGs.

The cantina scene in Star Wars/Episode 4 says it best: "We don't SERVE their kind here. Your droids... they'll have to wait outside." PCs who either by race or perceived occupation stand out from the norm in an area should garner attention in some way and not all of this will be positive.

I don't know that "fear, hatred or other assort-ly negative reactions" is the automatic level of default. It might be as simple as "Unfriendly" on the Diplomacy scale. The lizardfolk walks into a bar and the bartender just shouts "we don't serve their kind here!" Doesn't need to be a lynch mob or screams of abject terror, though I suppose that's a "negative" reaction.

But what if you mixed it up?

Imagine this dude walks into the town and he's singled out by a couple street thugs. They want to fight him, not because he's a monster but because they see him as a threat to their gang. After learning some stuff about him via Diplomacy/Gather Info, the thugs are impressed and admire the Lizardfolk's potential as an enforcer.

Anyway yes; typically PCs should expect some kind of social stigma. These are people who make their living not by working at some job, craft or profession, but rather they murder foes (good or evil doesn't matter), loot the corpses and then also rob those foes' homes or bases of operations. PCs:

- openly carry weapons, wear armor and may at any given time be able to employ earth-shattering magic

- often have no permanent home and may in fact be transients

- Pay no regular taxes or tithes other than the common standard of living

- typically resort to violence when a conflict arises

In my opinion every person in the party that presents themselves as an "adventurer" runs the risk of falling into the above social assumptions. Outsiders are weird; adventurers are little more than pirates; add in a lizardfolk race and I don't think the player should be surprised in a potential Unfriendly encounter.

As always have the conversation with your players. Voice your concerns, honestly hear theirs and try to find a middle ground that's fun for everyone. If the lizardfolk player or anyone else isn't willing to compromise, you may need to just push forward with your persecutions.

This is why in the comics, the Avengers have a "final solution" for the Hulk and why Batman keeps a suit of armor powered in part by kryptonite. High DPR is fine, when it's focused at evil.

I don't think it is bad to build for DPR, but I think its foolish to build ONLY for DPR and then not expect that decision to bite you in some way. I've seen this happen in my own games, and not always in the form of failed Will saves. The 2h barbarian who has NO ranged weapons; the blaster wizard who is dealing with energy immunity; the brutal dwarf fighter who can't get up to the front line.

I'm not saying that every player should work to eliminate their PC's weaknesses. I do think though that it is the responsibility of the players to understand what those weaknesses are and compensate for them in some way. In the case of the ranger in the example above, it might be prudent to have a "PC subdual plan" prepped. Entangle effects, sleep poison, enchantment negation spells or just Dispel Magic, etc.

Anyway, to the title of the thread no, high DPR is not a bad thing. Understand though that hyperspecialization in any one aspect of the game comes with the risk of falling woefully behind in other areas. Be aware and be willing to deal with consequences.

I have two daughters who've played several times at home with me. Currently they're 11 and 13, but they've played back as early as 7 and 9. The one thing that never fails: games get very cinematic.

My girls never say to me: I'm going to move up using Stealth and inspect the area; my Perception check is X

Instead it's: I move up with lots of caution. You said there's a clearing right? I'll look around really carefully, try and see if there's anything in the leaves on the ground that looks like a trap. Maybe a weird shape, or a mound or something.

Then when the older one DID find something she thought was a trap; a bunch of vines under the leaves she looks over her spells (playing a wizard) and goes: Ok, I have Mage Hand. I'm gonna pick up a branch, brush away some leaves until I can clearly see the vines. Then I'll pick up a heavy rock and drop it on the vines and other areas in the leaves to see if I can set it off.

In short: my girls see Pathfinder as an action movie, not a game.

If you're running PFS modules, let the kids try anything and get away with some stuff. If they're playing more cinematically try to roll with it.

@ Mr Green Jeans: yes, a sandbox, but one where the players REALLY take charge. Right now I have three "sandbox" games, all of which I spoon-fed my players plot lines until they took the bait. Not so much sandbox as they are "non-linear."

I want players to sit down to MY table and for THEM to tell ME: here's what's gonna happen. We're gonna go here so we can try to find this or accomplish this goal.

My players just seem so... passive. I get it at level 1, adventure 1, you want a little direction. But by level 5 after we've played this homebrew setting for a year, you STILL need me to give you a set of "potential plot points?"

Seriously. I want my players to take crafting skills and feats; I've even offered them as bonus feats in one game. All three of these games is using the Ultimate Campaign rules for Downtime. I want my players to go, get invested in the gameworld and be engaged as players in what their characters want. Form alliances, build items and businesses, make enemies.

My players want none of this.

My players want to sit down, week after week, and find out who the monster/villain of the week is. They want plots handed to them, then they want those plots to be "you start here... fight these foes... go to here... figure out X and finally... beat the BBEG." Too much American TV if you ask me.

So I guess it's not a different campaign I want. It's different players. Anyone in this thread interested in a sandbox and living in MN, USA?

I frickin LOVED Van Helsing. Every Inquisitor I've ever made in PF has been modeled after Jackman's character. The main female character was super hot (in my opinion), the villains were super over the top but in a good way, and Jackman himself was very good. Plus... David Wenham. Oh yeah, you KNOW you love everything this guy does. His voice overs on Ultimate Warrior, Faramir in LotR, EVERYTHING.

In looking through this thread, I'm realizing I seem to only like "bad" films. Do the movies Cube and Cube 2: Hypercube count as "bad?" If so... I'm IN!

And last, but certainly not least: Keanau Reeves. My defense of this legend of acting goes as far back as River's Edge with Crispin Glover and Dennis Hopper. Bill and Ted, Fatherhood, My Private Idaho, Feeling Minnesota... he's done PLENTY of great jobs.

My own personal fave though? Con... Stan... Tine.

That's Right. I said it. I thought he was AWESOME as John Constantine. I haven't seen John Wick, so for me Constantine was GENIUS!

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go watch The Replacements for the 121'st time...

I'd like to run a game where the players really guide the action. I mean really. Like, I just set up the setting but really get into that setting y'know? Like multi-paragraphs of history, locations, etc. Then I just turn to my players and go "what do you want to do?" From there, they just go and I just tell the players what they see when they get there.

This is how we used to play when I was a kid. I guess most of my games nowadays are an effort to re-create my childhood. Sad, I admit.

Anyway I used to just show up with my homemade (read: terrible) map, lots of info if people asked for it, and then the players had their own motivations and goals. Like when my buddy waned from level 1 to have an elemental-powered sword and through the whole campaign he just guided the party to different locales until he assembled everything he needed for the Artifact Sword of Water.

FYI; that sword is how my homebrew's "Second Age" ended. It was used to open a gate to the elemental plane of water thereby drowning an entire empire. Unfortunately my buddy's PC was killed in the process so... Atlantis.

I like Keanau Reeves. That's right, I said it. I also like Nicholas Cage. Not in a "ha ha, I'm ironic and I wear a vest and have a goatee and call myself a hipster but also I'm making fun of the whole movement because I'm witty and clever" kind of way.

No, I LIKE them. I think their acting is great. I think both could do some serious acting if given the pairing with a great director. Would they ever win academy awards? I don't know; I'm not into awards shows.

I also like Vin Diesel. I think Pitch Black or whatever that first Riddick movie was called was some of the greatest action I've seen in a long time. "I'm gonna kill you with this cup." Yeah, he said THAT. And it was awesome, and you watched the heck out of it.

Y'know what else I liked? Soldier with Kurt Russel. Don't know if it qualifies as "Bad" for the purposes of this thread, but I don't really care. I like the main character for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is Kurt Russel. But one of the reasons to love him is the same reason I love the Clone Wars cartoon: he calls ANYONE "sir." And that freaking line:

- What are you going to do now?
*close up on Russel*
- I'm going to KILL them all sir.

That line was delivered in the most chilling way possible: as a statement of ABSOLUTE fact.

MY GOD I love the films in this thread! Ok, tomorrow the wife and kids are on their own. I'm going trolling through Netflix for Legend with Tom Cruise, followed by Hawk the Slayer and ending with Ice Pirates!

What about a version of #18 that's not a garden, but an orchard. The spell used is similar to Meld Into Stone but with a much longer duration which is renewed every so often by the "Gardeners." The spell isn't defensive but an imprisonment; the victim is forced to merge with the trees for a certain duration (sentence) while the tree itself grows around them. The occupants are conscious, so their loved ones or victims can have monitored visits.

Because of this consciousness and the fact that the victims are inside a living organism, they also develop an empathy with their tree. The prisoners then feel the joy of each new branch, the sorrow of loss when their fruit is harvested and perhaps even some discomfort when insects burrow in or limbs are pruned.

Finally, since they are a conscious but captive audience, they are occasionally spoken to by the clergy tending to them. This adds a final, rehabilitative function to the Gardens. The "Gardeners" remind the prisoners of their crimes but also inform the convicted of how the world around them goes on. The clergy offers lectures on justice, civility and manners; they encourage repentance; absolution is made available.

Now since the Meld Into Stone spell isn't permanent it has to be renewed once in a while. The criminals during this time are interviewed through use of spells by a "parole board" of sorts. If they are truly repentant they are allowed to help work on the grounds for a time and then released back into society for "good behavior." If they lie or attempt to otherwise escape their imprisonment they are remanded back into their trees.

Ok Z-dawg, the main gist of your concern seems to be: how do I justify spontaneous NEW knowledge that the PCs get in their new level that they didn't do anything to practice for previously?

Imagine a POTENTIAL day in the life of a PC:

1. you wake up

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2. you fight evil for 15 minutes

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3. you go to bed

So for this particular guy, this particular day, there's a lot of unused time in an 8 hr day. What's he doing with all the time you DON'T see on "screen?" Well, practicing techniques that will develop into feats, studying notes and formulae for potential new spells, etc.

Pathfinder is an abstraction at heart, from combat to crafting items to disarming a trap. The training needed to gain a level is just another abstraction.

I don't remind my players to practice anything for new feats/spells/powers etc. I figure it like this:

For an hour each morning Blasto the Magnificent has to study his wizard spells. Included in that spellbook are notes on how the arcane energies behind the spells are tapped and controlled. Blasto thinks "So with an Acid Splash spell, I'm conjuring a nanojule of Earth energy, using hand gestures #3 and #7 to keep the energy flow in check and then directing that purely by will which gives it a short duration and manifestation time (Instantaneous damage effect at Short range). What if, instead I used some foci to direct and enhance manifestation? Old Master Flimfart at the Akademie used to say that an adder's stomach was good for such things, but I'll need a catalyst to activate it. Perhaps... RHUBARB LEAF of course! I still need something to direct the enhanced energies. A dart should do. Now I just need to practice summoning larger quantities of energy..."

Meanwhile Sir Squarejaw, the mighty fighter, is just standing around. Realizing that the wizard is lost in his book and that the ranger just went out for her morning hunt and that the cleric is praying to the dawn, Squarejaw is kind of bored. Seeing that the fire is down to embers and knowing that the ranger will need a cooking fire when she returns, the warrior decides to chop some more. Taking his axe to a couple logs he wonders aloud "How can I keep my Power Attack swings from being so wild and uncontrolled. That last battle with those goblins my accuracy was way off; if I don't get this handled it might mean life or death! Wait, there was a technique Sir Stonealecrafterbeard the dwarven battlemaster showed us once: the Focus of the Furious he called it. Let's see, grip the axe like so... sideways stance, bouncy knees... and GO!" Suddenly all the energy in his Power Attack is controlled into a single, focused blow to the log splitting it mightily and sending the pieces flying. "Great!" Sir Squarejaw thinks, "But can I do that again, in battle? When it really matters? I better keep practicing with different attacks..."

I imagine all of the above happening retroactively when my players tell me that the wizard is going to take Acid Arrow at level 3 and the fighter is picking up Furious Focus. Now, if the players want to RP all of that in some way, I'm game. Anything that makes them more engaged in the story and setting and gets us away from only saying "I attack; hit AC 23; 21 damage" at the table is good for me.

For example I have a game I'm a player in. I know my character is going to next take a dip into the Hunter class even though his Favored Class is Warpriest. I know my GM doesn't care but I like roleplaying such changes so the last couple games while our characters have been traveling, during in between moments I've been telling the other players my character feels drawn more to the energies of nature here and how his mount seems more wild but also more alive than ever before. My PC has also described how his father once dwelt in these lands as part of a pseudo-druidic sect; my PC feels the energies of sect calling to him.

In other words: ask your players what they want and let that be your guide.

Used in one of my games: Behold the legend of Ghostshirt!

- Prestidigitation to slowly move a Small sized, 1 lb shirt
- Prestidigitation to draw a ghostly face on said shirt
- Ghost Sound to make... ghost sounds
- A scroll of Obscuring Mist at the end

The setting: PCs are attempting to ascend an earthen ramp up to a ruin. The path is only 10' wide cutting through a pair of sheer cliff faces. In one side of the cliffs, kobolds have gouged out 2 murder holes and are set to rain down javelins and slings on the PCs as they run up.

The result: "Ghostshirt" slowly rises up through the fog, blocking 1 murder hole, then the next. Meanwhile the PCs are moving up along the far wall. That means even when the kobolds can see past "Ghostshirt" they only see vague shapes moving through the mist (PCs are 10' away from kobolds in mist, so Concealment) and they can't track the party by sound because of the tortured moans and chain rattling emanating from the undead in their midst.

It was so ingenious I rolled Will saves for the 4 kobolds; 2 actually failed a DC 12 Will save and fled screaming about "Ghostshirt" in draconic. Now there is a kobold legend about the thing as an omen of death; once the PCs made it to the top they handily slew a tatzlwyrm which the kobolds were worshipping as a divine herald of their dragon god. So:

If you're a kobold in my homebrew, and a fog begins to roll in, beware. First you hear the terrible sounds of the damned soul. Then, rising out of the mist comes Ghostshirt; its neon face a cruel mockery of what it was in life. You have mere moments to live for Death follows in Ghostshirt's wake.

Wait, are you saying there's a caster/martial disparity? I'd never heard that on these boards. Do tell.

I agree w/a couple posters here: Phil has let stuff pile on for a while. We saw him vent once before, when they found the secret arctic base. But this was more personal.

I also agree: Ros and Phil didn't get that much on-screen development. But then, I think that helped up the shock value for me as a viewer. "Oh, how quaint. They're finally sharing that burger they... wait, what? Is that blood?" and then she's gone.

Now Phil has been very angry with EVERYTHING for a while now, but specifically Ward for a bit. He sent Hunter to end the man and was cheesed off that Hunter failed. Then a phone rings.

Whether the audience has seen it or not, you liked this woman and were finally vulnerable with her. You might've even loved her. Now you're on the floor with her bleeding out in your hands and the phone rings. Your mortal enemy, a man you hate enough to want dead, gets on the line and says "Nananana Boo Boo, Stick your head in Doo Doo, now we're even"

Oh yeah: there's that old crazy I've had stored in the back of my brain now.

To Set's point, the whole Phil punching his way through a Hydra squad, parachuting into otherworld and then crushing a man's chest until he dies thing is a tad tropey. But I have to admit for me it was satisfying. Phil's taken a lot on the chin over the years. Not only that but Ward is like a tick Phil just can't get rid of. Now, FINALLY he's got the man, shot him twice, and ended him.

Personally I feel for Phil. He's far more human, far more likable than most of the other characters. Ros was that way too. We didn't get to see much of their relationship onscreen, but we saw enough of Ros to know she and Phil were regular people.

By that I mean everyone else in the show acts like soldiers, or they have super powers, or they're action hero tropes and such. Ros and Phil are the classic Marvel set up: what if you drop totally normal humans into a world of super heroes?

Ros honestly believes she's helping save people. She's snarky, has a very personal story about her ex-husband and appeals to Daisy on a very human level despite not having ANY point of reference to what it is to be a mu... I mean Inhuman and to be hated and feared for your "gifts."

Bottom line: I like Phil. I liked him in his movie cameos. I liked his development in Avengers. I like him as the agent and later the director of SHIELD. I also like Ros. I like the actress in other roles she's had on Newsroom and other shows, and I like her character in this show.

Now she's gone and my buddy Phil has one more good thing taken from him. He's lost so much. He's sacrificed so much. Sure, it comes with the job but it's WARD. He was part of the team, part of the job; now he IS the job. I'm so sick and tired of this arrogant punk, taking whatever he wants and blaming everyone else for it. And now ROS? Right here, right in front of me? On our first... REAL... DATE?

No! The line must be drawn HERE and no further!

... Wait, that was another guy in charge that lost it over the "job." Nevermind...

Yes, PF has bloat. OD&D had bloat if you count the boxed sets (expert, basic, etc). AD&D had bloat from settings. 2e had bloat (I'm looking at you character kit books). The OP already mentioned 3e and beyond, so I wont speak to those.

So every system has bloat (or "meta" as the OP puts it). Many systems though, PF included, do a good job of keeping the core fresh so you can pick and choose what gets used.

Think about it: you go to a buffet. Are you EXPECTED to eat everything that's out? Of course not; you pick and choose what you want in your body at this time.

Why should playing your hobby be any different?

You pick and choose: what modules you run, where you want your homebrewed plot to go, and how much magic you'll offer the PCs in treasure. Why then should you feel obliged to offer EVERY option to the players when you yourself have placed strictures on your own limitless power as a GM?

Don't ever feel guilty for disallowing material.

Now as Raynulf pointed out: 5e is a completely different animal. Their design ethic, their content, their mechanics; everything is different. In fact, most systems are dissimilar to PF in many ways. If you need a break from PF, take one. Inevitably though you will find fault with those systems as well.

I love me some Marvel Super Heroes, but it's hard to run a campaign in that system. PCs advance at a glacially slow pace and some of the rules have gray areas as big as the grand canyon. I also loved the moody angst of Werewolf, however get yourself a couple rules lawyer players and that grit goes right out the window as most "rules" are at best loose guidelines.

The point is: no system is perfect and none that I play is completely devoid of bloat.

So, what do you do when you have PCs that can whip off 27 damage 9/day? Why, you hand that right back to them of course.

As Nukulo the Apocaflame roasts his way through a few encounters, a rat gets away through a crack in the wall. That rat is intercepted by a ratfolk druid who nearly wets herself at the thought that this abomination is a mere 100' from her domain. Knowing she can't compete she advises a few of her kin to take the better part of valor and they flee topside.

Outside they run afoul of some goblins. One of the male warrior ratfolk is captured and tortured for info: Nukulo is mentioned before the poor fellow is ended by the zealous ministrations of a bugbear. Of course the goblins want to go and capture the Apocaflame and drink his blood for its fiery powers. The hobgoblins managing the lair however know better. Such magic needs to be eradicated.

Enter Malus Asbestus, the hobgoblin warpriest. He's trained in toughness, can give himself a couple rounds of Energy Resistance: Fire as a Swift action and has phenomenal saves. Malus has been hand-picked to lead a strike against Nukulo.

So the players come up out of the dungeon, Nukulo grinning with pride as the place collapses into smoldering ruins, when suddenly a horn sounds. A wave of expendable goblins comes over the hill; Nukulo's 7th fireball wipes them out so hard their kin forget they ever existed at all. Then from the side another wave comes and the 8th fireball drops. Nukulo is beginning to become annoyed. Coming out of invisibility mere feet from the wizard, Malus Asbestus materializes with his weapon drawn.

Aha! But the Apocaflame is not so easily bested. He darts back and dumps his 9th, triumphant fireball! The smoke clears and Malus merely brushes some soot from his pauldron. "My turn." he grins. Suddenly he lunges forward in a surge of Divine Favor unleashing 25 damage in a single hit.

Nukulo, who has never actually sustained damage in his career is shocked and appalled. How DARE this plebian draw Nukulo's blood! The audacity is...

The wizard realizes slowly that his party is engaged with the third wave of goblins. There is little space to flee. All of his daily spells were spent on massive fire damage which doesn't seem to phase his foe who is standing uncomfortably close. The wizard withdraws thirty feet, back to the edge of the smoldering ruin he just created. Malus sneers.

"You've lobbed your last fireball, frog-kisser! By the unholy edicts of my liege lord you must be eradicated from the FACE OF THE EARTH!" The hobgoblin lurches forward once more, his 2 handed sword hurtling in a dangerous arc toward the wizard's neck.

Is this the end of Nukulo?

Who cares. The bottom line is that if he does a ton of fire damage, build in an encounter that removes that damage. If he switches, the warpriest uses a Swift to layer on a different energy resist.

There are solutions to the problems in this thread. They're not perfect, nor are they infallible, but they exist. They exist because Paizo knew: eventually the PCs are going to vastly outstrip the monsters by the law of averages, even just using the Core. The design ethic then is:

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Optimize your encounters to suit the optimization of your players. Rise to the challenge they lay before you. Utilize ALL the vast resources you have at your disposal. Then, when next you reboot your campaign, feel completely at ease with offering only SOME of the delicious smorgasbord that is the bloat of PF.

We all need to diet sometimes right?

Y'know I've heard this argument for Masterwork Transformation before but there's one catch: you need to spend the cash it would take to upgrade the item to a masterwork. So the wizard starts off with a dagger. Upgrading that costs 300 GP. If you're "stranded away from civilization" where are you going to find the shop to spend the 300 GP on material required for the spell?

At level 1 I could be rocking a crafting check of 34:
- Valet familiar; base Feat Extra Traits; Traits Fools for Friends, Helpful
- Starting trait: Fools for Friends
- Aid Another from familiar: +5
- Craft: Weapon: 1 rank/+1
- Class skill: +3
- Int Bonus: +5
- Crafter's Fortune spell: +10

Using the Accelerated Crafting rule I set the Masterwork Component DC at 30. 30*34 = 1020 giving us a 2.9 week time frame for creating the piece. In other words my crafter wizard, with no other help than her familiar, makes masterwork simple weapons in 3 weeks.

It's a far cry from 1 hour with the Masterwork Transformation spell, but it's a decent cost savings if that's a concern.

Scrolls. Consumables like potions or minor wondrous items that give you an extra spell to cast. Also summoning spells; crowd up the battlefield with a couple "negative spell absorbers" which, if not targeted by Confusion instead provide a wall of flesh to keep you defended for a round while you buff up.

For that matter mundane tricks and tactics. A simple Smokestick for example removes line of sight. Maybe it only lasts a round at this level, but that's a round you can take prepping for an attack instead of playing on the defensive.

Basically you want to move from damage control/restoration to offense right? Well the only way you get there is consciously deciding to be offensive rather than reactionary. When the "BS" spells hit is it better to have dropped several D6 damage on your foe and then throw a scroll of Restoration on your friend or vice versa.

Lastly talk to your fellow players and GM. Let them know your concerns and ask what you can do as well as maybe asking them if they're willing to change.

I've thanked Paizo over and over on these boards. Their responsiveness to fans in print an online is amazing in this day and age.

I've also mentioned the options before, but not just for character creation. The whole game is modular, which means villains too.

As a GM who finally has some time on their hands once in a while it's nice to think about exactly what villain I'd like to throw at a group of heroes and then BUILD that villain. I've had

- A kobold courtesan who went from villain to NPC

- A fey-tainted bugbear who exuded and reveled in preternatural fear

- A tatzlwyrm ranger who really used natural traps to her advantage

And many others besides. Further I like that because of the balance of some of the numbers I can reskin monsters for whatever I need. Take the simple sprite: a CR 1/3 Tiny creature with some minor at will cantrips and light aura. Change up those powers using other cantrips from the Wizard, Cleric or Druid spell lists and you've got dozens of CR 1/3 to 1/2 (depending on how combat-centric you make them) to add diversity in your game.

Snapping Flank is listed as a Combat and Teamwork feat even though it's from the Monster Codex. If it's legal and you meet the BAB +9 prerequisite you've got a Swift Action bite attack against a foe you and your teamwork ally are both flanking.

Pack Flanking + Outflank + Snapping Flank = at the very least a +13 Swift bite for both you and your Animal Companion (if your AC has access to your Teamwork feats).

Thank you Paizo.

I have said these words many times and will likely continue to do so. This and many other threads over the years have illustrated the frustrations with slings: not that we need them to do the SAME things as bows but to have equally interesting options.

They delivered.

Sure, you've gotta be a Halfling. Sure, not all of the feats are perfect. But now you've got the chance, between Slipslinger, the other new styles and the Ranged Tactics book to use a sling to deliver accurate shots, deal modest damage, drop energy cheaply on your attacks and also disarm or trip from range.

And you can do it all with a SINGLE weapon, the Halfling racial weapon.

Halflings everywhere are FINALLY holding their chins up. No longer are they JUST the slaves and peons of the other PC races. I can imagine a group of Halfling slaves, tottering around an playing up to their overlord, all the while fixing a handkerchief to the handle of a garden trowel and smiling...

I've always wanted to run a random campaign. I do mean random. Grab every random generator table I can find that relate in some way to PF and the game's default setting, then just start running.

Everyone rolls up characters while I randomly generate the first "hex" on the map. There's no BBEG, no overarching plot until some random combination of rolls generates it.

This seems like a "crazy" idea to me because, after the age of 15 I haven't found a single player who's willing to go along with it.

With polite respect to everyone, and I mean EVERYONE in this thread and others who think new school or new gamers = entitled, I politely disagree. Again.

Y'see I'm raising two girls. They both act "entitled" despite my best efforts as a parent. Before I get condemnations of being a terrible dad remember: when we were kids we were transitioning out of our parent's tech into our own and tech moved with the generations.

My girls have never HAD to use an encyclopedia or the card catalog for example; there's Google.

Now that's not a couple years... that's their WHOLE life. Imagine if your entire life you'd never even had to research anything in the traditional, library sense. Your entire life you could just click some buttons and ANY info you've ever needed is at your fingertips. If Google didn't have it, a dozen other searches might reveal it. If you're still not finding it you can network instantly in real time with folks who may know.

Now when I was a kid we were TRANSITIONING to that tech so I could at least identify with my parents, then rebel and reject them for my own peers, and thus be called "entitled" because my own sloth propelled me to using easier methods than what my parents used.

My kids have NEVER known any harder way so they're not "entitled" because there's nothing to compare against.

Now how does that translate to games?

My girls and other teen or twenty-something gamers I've met simply don't know other styles of gaming. They're not actively snubbing older methods in favor of their own, they are ignorant that other methods exist.

I'll also re-iterate: there've always been gamers who were sneaky with their numbers, whined about character death and like concessions to go their way. When we were kids we called them whiners; nowadays we call them "new school."

With all due respect to my colleagues in the gaming community, I don't hold with this opinion.

New school gaming to me is more about player options and player-centric gaming. Since the advent of 3x D&D I've seen more games than not focus on players and their needs versus the needs of the GM. Classic D&D, Runequest, Call of Cthulu and Cyberpunk and anything by Palladium all strike me as games where it was strongly expressed that the person running the game had most if not ALL the power and your only role as a player was to do your best not to get killed TOO quickly.

Then 3.0 and further editions came out. Suddenly players had tons of splat books; they had access to most if not all the rules; they could engineer and optimize their characters specifically to BEAT the crux of the campaign. They weren't generic templates that got incrementally better at what they'd been doing since level 1 and begged their GM for items; THEY had the power to craft their own items, feats, skills and powers at nearly every level to combat the threats unique to their experience and some hard rules on HOW to accomplish these tasks.

So in the end, here's MY opinion:

Old school = the GM (or equivalent) has the majority of the decision making power on how the game goes

New school = the players have at least an even say in what happens to their PCs in most situations

Do you agree or disagree?

@ Mark Hoover

Do you mind if I use your character story for inspiration?

Do it.

Folks in my games have been using these techniques for years. I had one guy recently make a paladin with the Rich Parents trait; he re-flavored it to being gear/gold he acquired over years campaigning as a soldier.

Basically the paladin had first been an NPC Warrior class; a soldier who rose through the ranks over a 5 year campaign. Once his time in the army was over he was sick of the carnage and retired to a life of marriage, children and pious devotion to a small village church.

Since he'd taken Knowledge: History and Knowledge: Religion he explained the retired soldier became a sage and priest for this small village. Often the locals or adventurers would come to him and seek his counsel. During decades of relatively sedate life his skills waned, explaining why he's no longer as killer-y as he was in his youth.

During this time he also explored his faith. He learned more of the goddess he served. The paladin no longer just paid lip service but honestly began to understand and believe in the faith. Then a group of bandits kidnapped a little girl.

So this ex-soldier is now a country priest but he's also a father. When adventurers try to save the girl and get their heads handed to them, they return to the church begging for aid. The country priest puts down his books, opens a dusty old trunk and solemnly draws his longsword.

Now he's kept up with weekly practice with his skills so he's not a total newb again, but he hasn't faced a real foe in decades. The priest rides out with the adventurers, battles the bandits and finds that his skills are tempered with wisdom, faith. In the heat of rescuing the little girl the priest discovers his true calling as a paladin of his goddess.

There's a lot of cool ways to run these types of stories.

I don't mind cheesy options from my players; monsters can use them too. As far as weaseling out of tough situations by using "cheese" that's been going on forever. Its just that when I was a kid playing 1e D&D we called it "roleplaying."

- pouring water down a hallway to figure slope
- throwing chalk dust everywhere for invisible creatures
- using torches and tracking the smoke to detect secret doors (from the draft)

Yeah, gamers have been gaming their systems since there were games. Rather than fight it these days when my players do these things I use just as many low blows. Monsters taking advantage of every Size difference, terrain bonus, and situational modifier I can think of. Speaking of Prestidigitation one time I had some mites working with carrion beetles. I made the mites prestidigitate all the heroes to smell like rotten meat. At first they were like "eww, but whatevs" until the beetles began swarming.

Good times.

Also, Swiss.

The thing that makes playing a cleric boring is that all you're ever doing is improving on what you have. You get pretty much everything you're GOING to get at level 1.

This is old school D&D.

As a result the ONLY thing that differentiates you from other clerics is the feats, skills, traits and domains you focus on. This in my opinion is where fluff comes in.

If you're working with Golarion, let's look at Erastil:

First off, alignment. Erastil's cleric alignments on the Pathfinder wiki are listed as LG, LN, or NG. Right there you've got pious champions of good, stoic law-touters who care nothing for good and evil and folks who use any means at their disposal, lawful or not, to promote the general good.

Pretty diverse.

Now on to Domains. Animal, Community, Good, Law and Plant. That's 10 possible combos, 10 different clerics. A NG Animal/Plant cleric of Erastil is nearly a druid; a LG Good/Law cleric is practically a paladin.

Take all the above a step further.

Looking at the fluff on the wiki there's no mention of a strict hierarchy or organization for the clergy. I take this to mean that each church or shrine is roughly a reflection of the clergy who frequent it. So a NG Animal/Plant cleric might be of a sort of druidic sect of primitives while the LG Good/Law cleric might be a soldier in a divine army.

I think then for me the only thing that makes clerics interesting is diversity. Granted, every class has this built in and the cleric has less archetypes to reflect this diversity, but still there's a certain amount of fun I get from creating the fluff around my clerics.

But I am surprised that today most players expect no character death and all encounters must be strictly CR balanced. Traps can no longer kill and a player can demand a certain magic item be available because his build depends on it. What, no sabretooth sabres here in Lothlorien? what kind of crappy city is this?

I am concerned the search for consistency such as that promoted by PFS has stifled creativity.

I have to politely, but VEHEMENTLY disagree. I don't buy this "players today" line. Players when I was kid whined, complained and one time even kicked over a TV tray when they got killed. They HATED rolling up new characters and fully wanted if not expected that their wussy level 1 magic user would grow up big and strong, get a tower and 1d4 apprentices and be flying around casting Death spells.

People want their characters to survive and they b***h about it when they die. This has always been my reality. Not ALL the people but enough that I remember them. This isn't a generational thing, doesn't have anything to do with video games and isn't because of a new game system.

The whole wanting magic items for a build thing is more new, more 3x and PF specific, but I can remember back to a lot of games where PCs were sort of gear-centric. Super Heroes, Rifts and Cyberpunk leap to mind.

Now the easy CR thing is frustrating, I agree. I still like though that with Pathfinder I can BUILD encounters the way I BUILD characters. There's nice, easy guidelines to ramping up my encounters to make them a challenge. I can tack on a template, add on PC classes or just add HD with all that brings.

Yes, pre-written adventures are pretty low-challenge, but you can ALWAYS add something to them. Hell, if you're really "old school" you should be used to taking a pre-gen adventure, keeping the maps, and then completely re-tooling it to fit YOUR game.

I don't know Trouble with Tribute, maybe you're right and kids these days don't do it right. But then, maybe they do and WE were doing it wrong the whole time.

The thing I appreciate about PF though is the ease with which I can make it MINE or more importantly ours at the table.

First villain in a long time: I'm glad he's dead. I sincerely hope he stays dead.

Everyone reading this thread that hasn't yet should stop everything you're doing and go spend 13 hours straight absorbing this!

I currently have a campaign that recently died. The PC in that game was at 3rd level and had Craft: Weapons. She also had Mending and Make Whole. Finally, she had a Valet archetype familiar and a cart.

Since the game and PC were forcibly "retired" I've had this gal show up in other campaigns as a traveling weapons' tinker. She finds gear tossed aside by adventurers; orc axes, goblin spears, spent arrows and sling bullets, etc. She then applies Make Whole, Mending and Craft: Weapons to either repair the devices or make them better.

Given that her backstory had her growing up in a gypsy caravan before becoming a wizard I turned her "cart" into a covered traveler's wagon. She appears here and there, or is spotted in a city market, and often has scrolls for sale along with her other goods.