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Leonard Kriegler

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Second what V to the B is saying. If this thread is about the cost of traps and making them as PCs; there I cannot help you. But if you think about using them as a GM, I'd strongly suggest using them in conjunction with other threats.

Consider a room with a CR 1/2 Acid Splash trap. It spits out a small gout of acid on someone who trips the Trigger; big deal. Now imagine that the ONLY way to go is through the Trigger, and that the only monsters in the room are a kind of Ooze that's immune: acid. Suddenly this trap becomes a serious nuisance.

Traps are good as ways to divide larger encounters. One toe-to-toe fight with four mites and a giant spider is a CR 3 fight and pretty challenging for your APL 1 party. The same fight as 2 mites and a shallow, easy to detect pit (call the pit a CR 1/2 and it deals only 1d6 damage) is merely a CR 1 fight but unless the PCs disable the trap, eventually it opens releasing a giant spider from behind. It works out to the same CR but splits it into 2 separate encounters.

Finally, think about WHY the trap is there in the first place. Most traps have the CHANCE to kill their prey outright, but also slow or immobilize their quarry making it easier for the hunter to finish off their kill.

Consider a kobold outpost with a Burning Hands trap. Now first off they'll have a way to avoid the device; a secret way around or over it, magic or genetics to ignore the fire damage, etc. Secondly, any good kobold adept or sorcerer knows that Burning Hands at level 1 just simply doesn't do enough damage to kill much more than a Tiny sized rat. One thing a flash of fire DOES do though is ignite things.

So... Burning Hands trap; within range are some fire crackers, wicks sticking out of the walls. Trap goes off, the wicks burn, and POP POP POP! Suddenly the kobolds know you're there and one round later they ambush you from inside the walls.


Dragonhunterq, I couldn't agree more. Crafting anything other than consumables is as much art as science. What I find most often though in my games (and this is anecdotal so not true of everyone) is that my players tend to craft items specific to numbers, bonuses.

They go through the hassle of getting Craft Magical Arms and Armor in the party somehow then obsess over squeezing out the most +'s for their money.

I feel like a lot of "special effects" or niche spells go unused but could make interesting and unique magic items. Take Call Animal for example.

The spell itself compels an Animal with a CR equal or less than your level to make it's way to you, sometimes from up to miles away. It can't be an animal under the handling of others. You have to select a specific type of creature you hope is close enough at the time of casting. Once the animal arrives it is Indifferent towards you but if maintained at that level or better it follows you around for the duration of the spell which is hours/level.

I have a guy in a campaign that is a Halfling warpriest (Divine Commander) 4/hunter 3. He has access to Call Animal and could cast this at CL3 to draw out, say, a Bristle Boar or something if he thought it lived nearby. But I've never used this spell in three levels of having access to it even though I want to command subordinates once in a while.

Instead, what if I bound the idea of this spell - calling a specific kind of animal to serve me, into an item? What would that look like?

I thought immediately of a hunting horn. The thing would send a clarion call to an animal I find prevalent in the region of the campaign. Hopefully one is nearby and answers the call. This opens up a whole list of other items I'd want, like something to make the animal trust me, items I can use to quickly buff the animal to a level where it'll survive in combat at this level and something to allow me to communicate with it.

Just from envisioning that one item I find myself daydreaming a whole array of gear working in concert to make my guy the "beastmaster" or something.

I find it more interesting using such less-used spells or special effects to design unique items than the standard +1 Flaming sword with a custom background.


1. Do you have them/make them in your game?
2. If yes, are they crafted by the PCs?
3. If yes again, do the players typically start with an idea that they try to fit spells/rules to, or spells/mechanics they try to fit an idea to?

I'm asking because our home game has hit an interesting event horizon. Our PCs are as follows: NG Halfling warpriest (archetype: Divine Commander) 4/hunter 3; changeling arcanist 7; 1/2 minotaur (homebrew) shaman 7; dwarf fighter 7. The arcanist chose a couple item creation feats, namely Scribe Scroll and Craft Wondrous Items.

I've got ideas for items, but they're pipe dreams; scenes I want to see happen because I have the gear to MAKE them happen. I have no idea if the rules exist to allow these things or if those rules are there, whether or not we're high enough level to make them a reality.

I just thought it'd be cool to open a discussion on unique, custom wondrous items.


I love history lessons and that's partly what I was looking for, which is why I went here instead of Rules. I was kind of hoping someone's search-fu was better than mine when it comes to the armies though and numbers specific to Pathfinder. I also checked UC under the Kingdom Building but didn't see it either.

One thing though that helped clarify nobles is a point that both DM Dubs and Questor hit on. So you start at the king, who owns everything. he doles out land and titles to his children, extended family, and trusted vassals. He does this not 'cuz he's awesome, but because then his kids and family hold most of the lands and keep the line of succession going, and then the trusted vassals hopefully continue toeing the family line and don't revolt.

I sort of understood this, but then I could never rationalize landless nobles or noble-on-noble skirmishing. Now I'm starting to understand.

The point these 2 astute posters make is that sometimes in real life nobles get a title without land simply to give them legal and social rights not normally afforded, like being able to have commoners duel for them or not being persecuted for loitering or something.

Landed nobles might fight among themselves for like honor or something, but most of their disputes could be settled by marriages, shady deals or money. Why would any noble ever fight to acquire land though, if said land was doled out by a higher noble?

Well perhaps the landless noble chafes against the foolish count who got his lofty position and lands from just being born, but the landless baron saved the king's niece and an entire town from siege through brilliant tactics and bloody battle.

So knowing the king is ruthless and will honor him if he can pull it off, the baron uses his title's legal advantage to hire a mercenary army from the town he saved. He then storms the count's keep, manages to siege it and takes out the count. The king, in like fashion, hands over the former count's lands. However legally the count's hereditary title COULD go to the baron, or it COULD pass to the count's infant son who the nursemaid managed to escape with (potential plot hook?)

The reason none of this ever made sense to me was... WHO CARES about legal and social rights in a medieval fantasy roleplaying game? I just figured nobles equaled land in some way because when playing an RPG I'm looking at a giant hex map of sparsely populated land plagued by slavering hordes of pure evil.

Oh sure, when world building I'd pay lip service to legal issues like noting which court would prosecute and hang a PC for murder or whatever. It never occurred to me that nobles would care more about such courts and their rights than, say, a goblin horde working for an evil witch that can raise and command the dead.

In my games I'm a fan of non-hereditary merchant barons; folks with lots of money that buy their way into nobility and a chip on their shoulder because they don't hold land and can't pass the title on to their kin. I always just said though that they already built up a big business, made tons of money, and THEN bought the title.

It never occurred to me that I might have it backwards. Perhaps they scraped together just enough gold to dump it all on a title, that then afforded them the rights to OWN a business instead of just working for someone else. Then they re-built their fortunes steadily and might even own other side businesses.

As for the military numbers, I'll have to just wing it. There's a 1-100 ratio I use for guards INSIDE settlements, so I suppose I could just as easily guesstimate using that ratio applied to the relative size of a political area. Then I'll just toy with the numbers, like Baron Von Irongate is a war-monger so even though there's 5000 people in his lands he actually has like 750 soldiers, but the Earl of Gloomynmere is very poor and his lands are plagued by fey, so even with 6000 population he only commands 450 soldiers.


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So I just popped into the Settlements thread on the General Discussion board and learned that the CRB has some solid numbers on guards per city. I'm wondering if anyone has similar numbers for things like how many nobles for a kingdom, how many soldiers per noble or kingdom, and a good way to divide up the political titles?

I never could get a handle on nobles in real life. So in feudal societies, you had nobles based on the right to own land, but how much land made you one kind of noble or another? Like why would someone be a baron instead of a knight, or a count?

As for military I ask that because I've got a couple players wanting to take Profession: Soldier in a new campaign and they want to dive into the minutia of how big the armies are and how they're divvied up throughout the kingdom. They want to be able to use the skill as they level up to work with said military and perhaps at mid or higher levels even call upon favors from the rank and file.


Seriously, no one I know is going to this thing.


Seriously, no one I know is going to this thing.


So I'm on the fence about going to this con. I have never been and I live 4 hours away in MN. Y'see I'm not one for cosplay, I like to read as much as the next guy but there's no one I need to get autographs from, I'm not a collector so there's nothing I'd be hunting for in the dealer room... that just leaves me looking for gaming.

I've poked around the website and I see tons of photos about the stuff I'm not really into. They don't have the games schedule up yet so I don't know what to expect. There's a couple of discussions I'd sign up for but I don't think I want to drive for four hours, get a hotel room, and then attend two talks and end up wandering around by myself for a weekend.

If any MN Pathfinders happen upon this thread and are planning on going chime in. Also if any PFS folks from years past have anecdotes on what goes on feel free to dish. I've just been burned on one con in my own town that didn't live up to my expectations; I don't want to spend money and time a state away for the same let down.


So I'm on the fence about going to this con. I have never been and I live 4 hours away in MN. I'm wondering if PFS is going to have a presence there? Y'see I'm not one for cosplay, I like to read as much as the next guy but there's no one I need to get autographs from, I'm not a collector so there's nothing I'd be hunting for in the dealer room... that just leaves me looking for gaming.

I've poked around the website and I see tons of photos about the stuff I'm not really into. They don't have the games schedule up yet so I don't know what to expect. There's a couple of discussions I'd sign up for but I don't think I want to drive for four hours, get a hotel room, and then attend two talks and end up wandering around by myself for a weekend.

If PFS is going to be there or if any MN Pathfinders happen upon this thread and are planning on going chime in. Also if any PFS folks from years past have anecdotes on what goes on feel free to dish.


One thing at early levels that stinks is that you have limited resources. Spending them on your familiar can be risky. One way I mitigated this with a wizard PC I made was to give her the Cypher Magic feat at first level. Then I gave the familiar the Familiar Focus feat. This meant that any harmless spell I cast on my familiar from a scroll, like say Mage Armor, received a +2 Caster Level boost.

Also if you're looking to up the combat power of your familiar there are a couple 1pt Evolutions you can pick up with Evolved Familiar that can enhance damage, grant longer reach or give your little buddy extra attacks. Imagine that battle goat with it's gore attack plus a pair of hoof attacks, a bite attack, enlarged to Medium size and having the gore raised to 1d8 damage dice. Slap some armor on that bad boy, load it up with mutagen and start mauling!


How about a compromise OUT of character? So there's a dispute, your character stalks off to go scout the next rift. Meanwhile...

You roll up a new character. Easy for you since you have such good system mastery. Said new character will be a new contact of the slayer's. It works like this:

Paladin: well, I did all I could, even trying to restrain our friend but the alchemist simply won't see our side on this.

Slayer: He has his reasons. Besides, I can't think about that right now. My man needs help now! If the alchemist can't help, maybe there's an old friend who might...

Paladin: What "old friend?" I thought all your guildmates were compromised?

Slayer: Well, this guy got out of the guild just before me. We had a... rivalry. We clashed a bit, things got heated and, well... let's just say, he could only sing soprano for a long time. Still, there was that one job on the riverbank he still owes me for so...

At this point you introduce your new character for the first session after the wagon incident, have a side adventure with that guy, and help save the boyfriend. Now you get to play, your "party" such that it is now stays together which helps the GM and if things go really well, you could pull the same stunt with your lone character in the north.

Your guy stalks off alone at the beginning of the second session, wanders for a bit, runs into an ambush. Two other adventurers appear out of nowhere and help you out. The three of you form a friendship in the crucible of battle and you decide to let them in on what you're doing. Now you head off to the rift.

Now, if your GM does it JUST right, on the THIRD session after the wagon-breaking fight there's first a cut back to the guys in the city. Your new character there, the slayer's old rival, has a tip about something bad going down in the north. His info implicates 2 new players, hiding in plain sight.

Cut back to your guy, moving on towards the rift. There's another fight and you and your new "teammates" really seem to be doing well. They begin to press for more info though. Like a lot more. They want to know details, they ask to see the mark if you've mentioned it, etc.

Now cut back again to the party back in the city. They need a way to catch up to you, and fast. They recognize you may be in danger and the 2 spies may be stalking you in the wilderness even now. The guildmaster you saved has a contact, a wizard powerful enough to locate you and put the party with you immediately.

You visit said wizard, he uses some scrying and he's struck with pain while spotting your friend. He's getting some terrible interference from powerful entities extremely close to your alchemist. He's got a rough area though and can teleport you close. He casts his spell and then the GM sets up a fight:

The GM takes control of the two companions traveling with the alchemist. He spontaneously gives them a couple extra "evil" powers that make them a challenge to your whole party combined. The paladin and the slayer come upon the scene as your alchemist is sleeping and his "companions" are using extreme stealth to root through his things or whatever.

The battle ensues, with your party banding together to fight these spies. In the aftermath you talk and realize that, although the boyfriend is safe, splitting apart like this put you all in jeopardy. You find a new birth of friendship and commitment to one another and since, now you're all together you can finish the adventure to the next rift as a team.

Plus, you've got at least 1 new NPC (the slayer's rival) that you feel a connection to in the game. If the GM wants, he could have the 2 adventurers who were spies simply be unknowing puppets or possessed or something and, after the battle they too become NPCs. The game grows out from your actions and decisions.


It might also be handy to give yourself some benchmarks to shoot for. I'm running a switch-hitter Halfling warpriest with a Halfling sling-staff. This means he wants to be competent from both range and melee.

My GM runs very generic, vanilla encounters. This means I can usually plan around the Monster Statistics by CR chart. I try and shoot for having a bonus to attack that, if I roll a 10 on my D20 I can still hit the average AC. If I hit, I want to be able to deal 1/4 of the average HP for a monster with a CR = to my current level.

Right now I'm level 4. This means I built my character around having a bonus to attack from melee and range of at least +7 to hit and I want to be able to deal approximately 10 damage per hit.

Now with my particular build I have an Animal Companion, a wolf Sacred Mount. I factor his attack into mine for my total damage in a round. I've built well enough that under optimal situations we both have at least a +7 or better attack bonus and my sling-staff deals 1d6 +2 (average 5.5 damage) in melee. My wolf on the other hand with his +7 bite attack delivers 1d6 +3 (average 6.5 damage) in melee.

This covers me for the benchmarks for a CR 4 monster. Hopefully this helps a little.


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Krensky wrote:

Let Me Google That For You is just about the epitome of passive aggressive forum douchbaggery KC, especially when the question was already answered.

I expected better from you.

I didn't. He's a kobold for goodness sake. I feel like if I'd clicked on anything my computer would've sprayed Choking Powder in my face.


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Backstories. R_Chance touches on them up thread. And character death too. Yes, some folks are of the opinion that old school = PC fatalities and a lack of backstory.

This is why I think "old school" is completely subjective.

I have roughly as many deaths in PF as I did back in AD&D when we were in HS. That is to say; not that many. Also I still remember the elaborate backgrounds my players used to make, like the half-elven prince of a fallen empire cursed to wander and losing all his skills reducing him to a level 1 druid/fighter/magic-user and others.

People always say "YMMV" and I wholeheartedly agree. Inevitably my experience is NEVER the same as my current buddies. I have one guy that produced a binder with 2 pocket folders from back in the day. One side was full of pre-rolled AD&D characters, the other side was stuffed with six different dead characters from ONE campaign. Said campaign only made it to sixth level.

REALLY? 1 dead guy per level? I fudged dice as my group's DM so PCs would live time and again because my players had put so much into crafting them. A couple of my campaigns got so high in level I had whole lineages of famed adventurers, from grandfather to grandson. Not because the characters died and the same stats were used for Bergen Frothmeyer the Second, but because the character would make to about 11th level, retire, and the player would want to keep playing in a reboot to level 1.

So yeah, my MMV. A lot.

I think "old school" just means however you played as a kid. Whatever thoughts, feelings, experiences and ideas you had back in the day when you first started. It's really nothing more than that to me. That makes the term entirely personal. One player's "old school" is another's "killer GM" or whatever.

And as for new players and kids being raised on MMO's: my kids at 11 and 13 were raised on video games. I'm not ashamed to say that they have logged more hours on some of the kinder, gentler online or PS3 RPGs than I have.

They also routinely come up with cool plans, engage in silly roleplay and generally are more cinematic than any other players I game with, with one exception. There's a group of thirty-somethings I play with who never played RPGs having only done board gaming and MMOs. I have played two sessions with them so far and am blown away by the weird, cool crap they try every game without any thought to HOW they will succeed at said crap.

So I don't think youth, saturation in video games or a generation has anything to do with how much folks do or don't do in the game or with their roleplaying. My suspicion is that it's about their newness to the game.

Players I game with seem to have more enthusiasm to assume a role and try crazy stuff with the less system mastery they have. They don't know HOW to, say, grab a vine, swing over a bog, and chop a bullywug's head off with their axe just as the foe comes shooting up out of the water in a Charge, but they know they want to so they just say that they do that and leave it to me to figure the how.

Other players though with extreme system mastery dictate a litany of skill checks, feats and powers they'll use to inevitably land at learning everything about, say, a witch's plan to infiltrate a village by slowly poisoning patrons of the feast hall with an addictive substance in the food. Said plans are meticulous, suggest possible DCs and are well reasoned. They also involve certain Gather Information scenes which the player handwaves with skill checks that their character has been specifically built to succeed at.

These are 2 different ways of playing. Neither is bad. Neither came from a kid raised on video games. Both are grown adults my age (forties); the bullywug-chopper has only RPG'd a few times and rarely in PF while the diplomancer has been at this for years and has a lot of 3.5 and PF experience.

I just want to play so both are welcome at my table. I picture both differently in my head, even though neither has ever given me a proper description of their character. The female barbarian with her axe, a half-orc; for some reason I picture her with red hair, wild eyes and a blood-smear on her smirking cheek dressed all in crazy hide armor. The other one is an elf wizard with a thrush; I picture him like some stuffy British TV interviewer from the 60's and 70's with pale hair and complexion, really well polished clothing and gear, and very properly de-briefing the folks he diplomacizes.

Whatever. TL/DR; my point is that all of this is subjective. Old school gamers; good versus bad roleplaying; how we enjoy our hobby. All of my experiences above are all anecdotal so of course YMMV and I expect, as R_Chance does that yours does vary. Wildly.


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quibblemuch wrote:
Feh. Kids today, with their music and their pants...

I know right? And their new-fangled desire to build to the numbers and kill everything in the dungeon.

...

Oh wait, that was my friends back in HS. And College. And after college. And right now.

Stinkin kids...


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Yeah, there's this idea that AD&D and related systems were more roleplaying-friendly. People are confusing imagination with story.

Imagination: Not to be confused with creativity (which has slightly more "new-school" connotations), imagination was heavily encouraged by older editions. Instead of tasks being outlined by your stats, you had to handle them "manually". Examples are diplomacy or trap disabling. The downside to an imagination-focused game is it tends to go against roleplaying the character you want to play (if I can't talk my way out of a fight, neither can my "silver-tongued" rogue). Imagination is a fun feature, though, and one of the key strengths of old-school games.

Story: Story is heavily encouraged by newer editions. It is easier to play the exact type of character you want, and thanks to lower mortality, it is easier to play out that character's arc without worrying about a fatality in the first encounter they're in. This also frees you up to make riskier choices and not play the most optimal build possible (though some degree of usefulness is necessary).

People who find that their groups don't roleplay as much under newer systems are likely just running into groups less interested in roleplaying.

I love everything you're saying here KC Barbeque. It also occurs to me that one of the things that always vexed me in older editions is that I was always a story-driven guy. I had lots of characters I wanted to see go to the end and lots of villains I wanted to develop in front of my players. My friends however were always more imaginative in that they just wanted to keep making up more and more stuff. Dirigibles with machine guns; plane-hopping rods; a magically awakened shark army.

None of their imagination ever seemed to go with my story. Since there was always more of them than there was of me, those were the games we played. Since imagination has a lot less rules and structure than story a lot of my games were just my players arguing with me about how their characters SHOULD have all this cool stuff.


I read the Deathly Hollows, and I cried when Snape's fate was revealed, his life explained. I didn't cry because Rowling is an incredible author, though she is. I cried because I imagined Alan Rickman playing Snape.

Then I saw the movie. I am not ashamed to say I let the tears flow again even though my kids were sitting right there with me. He was THAT good.

The first time I ever saw Mr Rickman on screen was when my brother rented Die Hard. "Hey, it's got that guy from Moonlighting and Blind Date in it!" Then Hans Gruber appeared on screen. We were fans of quoting lines but the only ones we ever used from Die Hard were from the villain.

Next I watched Robin Hood. EVERY one of my friends made fun of me. Despite their cajoling, I saw it TWICE in the theater.

I didn't see Alan Rickman again until Dogma. One of my favorite scenes in ANY biblical film is Rickman talking about telling Jesus he's the son of god. "...I had to tell this little boy that he was God's only son and that it meant a life of persecution and crucifixion at the hands of the very people he came to enlighten and redeem. He begged me to 'take it all back'... and if I'd had the power I would have."

My eyes are misty just typing this.

So F U cancer! I know it's stupid, and childish, but I'm saying it anyway. You took my 20 year old brother, three of my grandparents, 2 of my aunts, crippled my uncle, stole a brother-in-law and have claimed or damaged a dozen other people in my life.

I F-ing HATE cancer. I'm so sick and tired of this stupid disease. I give to foundations every year, run 5ks, and talk with folks about the disease so I feel like I'm doing what I can. I'M DOING MY PART UNIVERSE! Time for you to start picking up the slack!

... I'm sorry, this just sucks.

Alan Rickman was a great actor. He could make even a role like Metatron in a silly, comic book version of religion, grab your attention. I bet he was an amazing human being to know in real life. I hope he is at peace, and in a place where he is loved for all time.


It never really gets that creative in my games. Currently I'm playing a Halfling warpriest with Profession: Tanner. He's mainly using his skills to keep the party in hides, furs and leather straps for their winter gear and snowshoes.

The few players that take these skills seriously pick stuff that serves their character in some in-game capacity. I've had folks who craft weapons, armor and books; a lot of Profession: Hunter or Trapper so they could sub it for Survival, and a monk/bard with Performance: Dance because she was a Dervish Dancer.

The most interesting one was a guy that took Profession: Cartographer. He was supposed to be making maps of the megadungoen at the center of the campaign. I reminded him 3 times though, then stopped and he never actually made any maps (either the character OR the player). In the end the game died.

I think it comes from my players being very focused on the adventure without any desire for downtime. Personally I love me some downtime sessions. Unfortunately my fellow gamers find this boring so mostly we just finish one adventure and either plow right into the next one or handwave purchasing some minor gear before moving on.


50. The entire dungeon is a real place twisted into a dying child's nightmare

51. The "dungeon" is a ruined city completely consumed by flora

52. A dungeon where each room is a famous painting the PCs must resolve some conflict for

53. A series of pocket dimensions based on popular video games

54. Hundreds of magnetized plates floating in an ionized field with random polarity

55. A dungeon controlled entirely by different songs; players are invited to sing in order to influence secret doors, traps etc.

I actually ran #53 when I was a little kid, based on Intellevision games popular at the time. There was a Tron section where PCs could drive light cycles and floating tanks and even collect a laser disc as a weapon; there was a racing section; there was even a place where you could get a rebel's machine gun from the game Utopia.

Nowadays it would probably be even cooler!


I didn't think I'd get choked up. I didn't know him personally and only listened to his stuff up through the 80's. But then my wife told me this morning and I remembered Changes.

David Bowie did a best of with live and studio recordings. I had a terrible year when I was 17. One of the things that got me through was listening to this album, over and over. Not that the lyrics were super profound or anything, but just the tone, the sound, the everything of Mr Bowie's music was so poppy, but mournful and beautiful all at once.

I sat down and cried a little this morning.

I hope wherever he is, David Bowie is as wonderful, as amazing as he was here. Yes, he was my goblin king. He was my thin white duke, he was the voice in my mind for many years.

Time may change me, but I can't change time.

It reminded me that I will continue to evolve forever, but forever will always be there for me. It's comforting, remembering you have at least one constant. Along the same lines my brother, who I lost at 17 and was a huge Bowie fan, used to always say:

They can never take away your birthday

I miss my brother. I miss David Bowie. Go listen to one of his albums, watch one of his movies, and be the Starman of your own life.

Flights of angels Mr Bowie; flights of angels...


29. Rocksteady Vault
Just off the market area Halgrev Rocksteady, a dwarven priest of Abadar, maintains a brutally fortified keep. She holds it not for personal glory or even in devotion to her patron, but primarily for the sake of her clients. 7 deep earth chambers, accessible only through the dwarves who ward the keep, are used to safeguard some of the most precious valuables outside the private nobility. The common hall is also a place of money exchange where loans can be obtained. It is frequented by travelers, adventurers and well-heeled merchants.


Cyrad and Myotin: so in some of your situations, what do you feel kept your players from just launching into combat? Or for that matter using magic to just leave?

If I'd given my players a "framed for murder" rap, they would've immediately checked for exits or else tried to fight their way out. My point is: you have to know your audience.

Otherwhere: I've been interested in running a "rescue from the burning building" scenario myself. Can you talk about how it went?

If you want to run non-combat encounters of a non-social nature you have to somehow involve the whole party. This is always the tricky thing for me. I mean combat is easy: there's a very identifiable goal (defeat the enemy) and everyone has SOME kind of combat action they can perform to add to the success of the group.

What do you do when you have an "escape from a prison" scene and you have three characters who are uber-specialized in Perception, Knowledge skills and Climb and then one guy has some hidden lockpicks, Disable Device, Stealth, etc?

Now I'm not saying it's impossible, you just have to be willing to coax and communicate with your players. You also have to be receptive to what they're trying to accomplish. I've stretched and even broken the rules on Aid Another to turn set piece traps and obstacles into whole-party events.

Instead of just having the rogue pick the lock and disable the door trap players have used Perception to help the rogue listen to/feel tumblers move in the lock for a +2; use Knowledge skills to ID the maker of the trap and explain common techniques and engineering flaws for a +2; Survival to check for tracks or movement patters through the area for a +2.

Since that isn't normal I had to tell my players I'd allow them to try anything and then give them examples. Unfortunately I've had to change out players several times so I don't have many folks who play with me that know me really well. They're also very rules-heavy. Still, its worth putting it out there for the one or two times people really get into it.


Non-Combat encounters are tricky. I've planned several in my homebrew campaigns. They rarely, if ever go off as "non-combat." Here's an example:

The PCs are headed through a megadungeon. Granted, this is a ruined city with certain areas CRAWLING with monsters. Still I've told the players that sometimes there are neutral or even some good aligned monsters/NPCs in the ruins.

They are moving between areas. Through the early morning mist comes four Fetchlings; the players fail to ID them as such so to the party they are "Pale skinned humanoids, clad in black clothing with a shadowy darkness seemingly cloying to their frames." The party asks if they're armed to which I reply that they ARE, but their weapons are not yet drawn.

Unbeknownst to the players I'd planned this as a way to introduce a band of Fetchling freedom fighters they could ally with. As soon as I mention weapons, the party scatters into Stealth. The Fetchlings fail their Perception checks. Next thing I know a party of 4th level Bada$$es are raining blows down on 4 level 1 NPC warriors.

Three fetchlings die instantly. One survives and flees, deeper into the ruins. The party tries to kill him, wounds him with a couple low-damage Magic Missiles, and the dude escapes. Later the party meets the ACTUAL freedom fighters who ask if the party met their "scouting party" earlier. Several Bluff checks ensue.

My point is: make sure your players KNOW definitively that they're supposed to at least start the encounter out of combat and try to resolve it without battle. One way to do that is by making a fight impossible:

- Natural hazards: raging rivers, huge chasms, mudslides and tsunamis can't be attacked. Try adding some of these in and make them into Chase scenes, stand alone set pieces or to add a bit of gusto to a fight scene.

- High powered monsters: the party of 5th level characters rounds a bend in the dungeon and finds... an adult red dragon (CR 14 fight). In no uncertain terms the players should realize that fighting here is foolish here in the extreme. However the dragon, with its 16 Int and DC 16 Suggestion at will speaks calmly to the party in Common. It explains that it just ate it's last "Treasure hunters" and it's looking for a fresh party. If they do a little quest, the dragon may just let them live...

- Traps: seriously. Think of a Haunt: you trigger it, get a Perception check and if you make it, you have a Surprise round to do something about it or run. What if you applied the same rules to binary traps? The level 1 noobs are sneaking along a cave tunnel and the rogue blows her Perception check. Suddenly she hears a "Click" under her foot. Everyone make another Perception check. The rogue and the Inquisitor make it and watch the floor begin to open beneath the rogue and fighter. The rogue, continuing her bad luck at the dice rolls a 9 for initiative; she'll be going only AFTER she needs to make her DC 20 Ref save. The Inquisitor however gets a 15 and makes a Partial Charge on the rogue; he's going to try and Bull Rush the rogue over the 10' opening. There's a moment of tension followed by the Inquisitor succeeding on her Bull Rush with a 17! The small-sized rogue is hurled to the far side of the pit even as the fighter falls into the hungry darkness below!

I'll leave you with another Non-Combat encounter that actually worked in my game. A 3rd level party got portalled out of a dungeon to a swamp several miles away. They slog through the swamp failing a couple Survival checks and carving their way through random encounters. They then find a small ruin and explore it only to take several rounds of damage and get charmed into doing a quest for a very distraught dryad.

Said dryad has lost her daughter. She sends the party deeper into the ruins where they will meet a Forlarren. The dryad demands the girl be returned tonight, before the rise of the full moon, so that her daughter's sinful nature can be redeemed by a divine power. In the midst of all of this the party realizes: they're low on spells, have no more healing and will probably die in the effort.

Enter: the Lyrakien Talespinner

A Lyrakien Azata is a fey-like outsider with gossamer wings that likes tales and is sort of a divine bard. The little spirit greets the party on the doorstep of the lower halls and challenges them to a performance contest. If the party wins they'll regain their strength. None of the PCs are bards or have the Performance skill. Instead the players go around re-telling of some of their more epic fights. One of the players was admittedly REALLY good and just went for it in character.

I added GM fiat to the Lyrakien's "Traveler's Friend" ability. Normally this just removes Exhausted/Fatigued. Instead I played it of that the PCs and the outsider were swapping tales, drinking fey mead and eating from a divine cornucopia for 2 hours. During this time the Lyrakien was moved by the barbarian's tale and invoked her own power. Suddenly as the haze and feasting cleared as if they had been dreaming the Lyrakien spoke one final prayer and disappeared. As the smoke cleared it was as if the players had slept for 8 hours and not only healed 2 HP/level but also could regain their spells and such.


Another way to go, and I haven't done any of the math so I don't know how "viable" it is, but what about multiclassing: sorcerer/ranger?

Take the ranger archetype Trapper for example. You start down the path of Sorcerer, blending that with your natural kobold talents for making traps. Trapper gives you Trapfinding for free at level 1; now you're an extreme trap disabler, greatly stealthy, and still picking up the nifty Favored Enemy and other level 1 stuff.

Down the road you get other ranger goodies; an Animal Companion (with the right feats you could have both an Animal Companion AND a Familiar!), tracking, favored terrain and at 5th level Trapper: you can MAKE a couple ranger traps as a Full Round action.

You'd make your parents proud. Sneak into the dungeon, scout the area using your magic/familiar/animal companion/EXTREME stealthiness. Then after figuring out where your first enemy is going to come from, quickly rig a hidden Tar Trap, dupe your foe at running out, and WHAM! If they fail a Ref save they're Entangled (a nice buff) and that level 4 Burning Hands spell you've had from way back that you've re-fluffed as Dragon's Breath suddenly ignites the guy for 4d4 +2d6 damage. Not too shabby for a kobold.

In my opinion kobolds do very well in a group. Picking spells/abilities that compliment others as well as yourself is a good way to go. For example taking a Valet familiar and then loading up on Teamwork feats for Escape Route to get out of melee w/out AoOs, Shake it Off to boost your saves, Shielded Caster to always make Concentration checks, Improved Spell Sharing so you're BOTH dragons, etc.

Plus there's lots of spells a sorcerer can take to keep them useful in melee. Again, taking a Valet familiar can help. You hand off a charge of Enlarge Person to your familiar, it speeds out and, if you're 3rd level it moves before and after the spell is delivered to an ally. This way you make sure your buffs NEVER miss your party.

Aside from a big bonus to stealth you've got Crafty, you get a +2 to Dex and Natural Armor +1 unless you trade any of this away. This is a spellcaster begging to stay at range, attack with either Ranged Touch or AoE spells and have a LOT of "distractions" i.e., party members and helpers around to keep attention off them.


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I'll throw in a second nod towards Raging Swan Press. Everything Creighton makes is geared to save GM's time in prep. They have books of villages, different humanoid tribes, environmental "dressing" books, etc.


Ok. Hopefully I can make it to GenCon this year. Secretly I'm hoping you look like your avatar so I have some basis of comparison. FYI, I look EXACTLY like my avatar, except my collarless shirt is more greenish-beige. I'm SO boring...[/TOZ fan worship]

Any other thoughts on old school gaming?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I guess our college campaign with Keebler elves and other shenanigans was pretty old school then.

Seriously. Let me know the next con you're going to. I'll try to make it there. If I can make it, the first 3 rounds are on me JUST to hear some of these stories in person.


41. Tidal wave: the weirdest one I ever ran was a dungeon on a Cliffside overlooking the sea below. The first room is a tomb with a secret door predictably under a sepulcher. By opening the secret door a pump begins pulling massive amounts of seawater up and starting the wave. What follows is part dungeon, part Chase Scene as you must speed towards the end collecting whatever clues, treasure and info you can along a winding stairway with galleries until the bottom which is an enormous, flooded hall. Finally you cross the water to the final tomb where upon defeating the last obstacle the room seals and begins flooding. Ironic that the faux-stone sarcophagus in the last tomb is in fact made of wood and large enough for four, Medium sized creatures...


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So, here's something cool. I recently got asked to run a PF game for four grown ups who'd never played RPGs or hadn't since HS. I started running it and WHAM! All four grown adults, in their THIRTIES, began acting like what I call "old school" gamers. They're running around looting everything, hack n slash, with not a ton of thought to plot or character. Very much like me and my buddies playing 1e games in HS.

Then I realized something. For these ladies and gentlemen, Pathfinder is THEIR "old school." It also made me realize something else: GODS am I OLD!

Try being 41, with 2 very active kids, and then try drinking/keeping up with/gaming with 4 30 year olds on new years eve. I spent ALL DAY Saturday recovering. On a side note, do you know if your liver can cry?

Anyway, I suppose Old School is just a state of being, a sort of Nirvana that gamers enter when first starting their love affair with RPGs.


C'mon folks; this is a FANTASY game! Let's not measure dragon's meat like that of common animals. Dragons actually improve with age, like a fine wine. I posit that their flesh actually becomes more flavorful.

Centuries of just lying around on coins softens parts of them, allowing for fat marbling. Sure they're old, but their body is steeped in amazing arcane energies. I say that "dragon steak" would be better then the best beef in existence.

Yes, they're sentient. They're also delicious. I've had dragons on the menus of my gameworlds since I was a wee child. Dragon scale jerky is as hard as a rock but it'll last nearly forever. Red Rump Roast is a crowd pleaser at the Green Gryphon; a single spark to the meat and it basically cooks itself! Greenwing was a feature in a horror-themed game; the wings of a green dragon, slow roasted over low heat for nearly days until the flesh was melting from the bones. The resulting flesh was then cast into a stew as were tail bones, the marrow of which was intoxicating and hallucinogenic.

I mean really just make up your own stuff, based on the color or breath weapon. I say really go nuts with it. The heart of a dragon, eaten within 1 minute of death, grants either a permanent +2 on Fort saves or a +4 versus Fear or something. Black dragon liver, roasted with spring vegetables harvested in the swamps produces a mighty vigor granting 24 hours of +6 to Strength. Boil the eyes in a stew for senses; dragon's tongue simmered in a beer-broth for 24 hours and then served with a cornucopia gives up to four feasters a permanent +1 on Diplomacy AND Intimidate.

I think most of the fun comes from all the different ways to prepare the meat.


Thanks CoV for the ideas! I like the idea of having to consult a sage. The game broke abruptly before I got to epilogue the mirror, so that whole "get the last reflection recreated" is genius. Right off the bat I'm thinking the map leads as far as a crossroads in the forest.

Here the players have to make a choice. The sage can help them make a decision so that the players begin to understand their decisions matter.


Looking for campaign advice. I was running a homebrewed one-shot involving the PCs getting hired by the local adventurer's guild to deal with some sewer monsters. There was no really big plot: go into the sewers, clear out some goblins using an underground chamber as a lair. The players are all completely new to RPGs so the session was supposed to be a fun way for these bored board gamers to blow off some steam.

About 3/4 of the way through the game I was already being peppered with requests to make this a campaign.

So I ad-libbed something. The main goblin leader was communicating through a mirror to some heavy-voiced mastermind and "faxing" a map to the guy through the mirror. PCs bust in, defeat the goblins, but the rogue goes for the map she sees disappearing.

While the fight rages around her she has a few tense moments using Sleight of Hand against the Escape Artist of her foe. After two ties between me and the player rolled heads up on the table, I rule that the map tears in half but that the mirror goes blank. Cheers erupt, high fives all around and we break up the game.

Now honestly, I didn't know if I could count on these players for regular gaming. They work different schedules, lead vastly different lives, and I am about 10 years older than all of them with a wife, two girls and a full time office job. Despite all of this all four players have since arranged things so that all of us have Sunday afternoons/evenings together.

They've even taken to calling themselves my "guild."

The only downside is that I have no idea where I was going. I literally just made everything up off the top of my head. I don't know what's on their half of the map other than a trail through the local forest. I don't know who the mastermind villain is, why he wants the map, or even what the goblins were doing there in the first place.

The players are all newbs, but this also works to their advantage. They don't yet fear Attacks of Opportunity, failed saves or bad die rolls. They even... SPLIT THE PARTY once!

So I come to you, oh gracious community. The only request I've had from my players is that I continue to homebrew. They'd prefer not to get involved in an AP, though I could probably sneak in an occasional module.

The PCs are all pre-gens I made for the one shot:

1. Hugh (pronounced "huge") Badaxe, CG male human fighter
2. Sneaky McFrench, NG female Halfling rogue
3. Luvvy, LG male dwarf cleric
4. Brutalicus Maximus (A.K.A. Kevin), NG male elf wizard

For the players' sake being new to RPGs and still asking "what CAN I do?" I'm guessing going sandboxy on them might not be good right now. I can probably pull off a non-linear thing, like having a main villain plot in the background and using multiple sub-plots to get to them.

Any advice you folks have would be appreciated. Thanks in advance and sorry for the wall o text!


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The cantina scene in Star Wars/Episode 4 says it best: "We don't SERVE their kind here. Your droids... they'll have to wait outside." PCs who either by race or perceived occupation stand out from the norm in an area should garner attention in some way and not all of this will be positive.

I don't know that "fear, hatred or other assort-ly negative reactions" is the automatic level of default. It might be as simple as "Unfriendly" on the Diplomacy scale. The lizardfolk walks into a bar and the bartender just shouts "we don't serve their kind here!" Doesn't need to be a lynch mob or screams of abject terror, though I suppose that's a "negative" reaction.

But what if you mixed it up?

Imagine this dude walks into the town and he's singled out by a couple street thugs. They want to fight him, not because he's a monster but because they see him as a threat to their gang. After learning some stuff about him via Diplomacy/Gather Info, the thugs are impressed and admire the Lizardfolk's potential as an enforcer.

Anyway yes; typically PCs should expect some kind of social stigma. These are people who make their living not by working at some job, craft or profession, but rather they murder foes (good or evil doesn't matter), loot the corpses and then also rob those foes' homes or bases of operations. PCs:

- openly carry weapons, wear armor and may at any given time be able to employ earth-shattering magic

- often have no permanent home and may in fact be transients

- Pay no regular taxes or tithes other than the common standard of living

- typically resort to violence when a conflict arises

In my opinion every person in the party that presents themselves as an "adventurer" runs the risk of falling into the above social assumptions. Outsiders are weird; adventurers are little more than pirates; add in a lizardfolk race and I don't think the player should be surprised in a potential Unfriendly encounter.

As always have the conversation with your players. Voice your concerns, honestly hear theirs and try to find a middle ground that's fun for everyone. If the lizardfolk player or anyone else isn't willing to compromise, you may need to just push forward with your persecutions.


Along the lines of the Animal Companion route avr mentions, what about a warpriest with the Divine Commander archetype? You lose Blessings but those are replaced with a combat-trained mount that starts the game with Light Armor Proficiency. Slap the Bodyguard archetype on the mount and you and your AC work together to cover front-line and tanking duties. You 2 soak up damage up front and mete out some decent attacks through use of your Fervor + spells, meanwhile the mesmerist improves your accuracy with debuffs.

On the character side, the warpriest and mesmerist might be part of an elite fighting team or something. Sort of a "holy samurai" and their kitsune charge. For extra shenanigans, take Blade of Mercy to turn all slashing damage non-lethal, then work down the Enforcer feat to Demoralize everyone you fight. You slap them with your sword, they panic, fall victim to the mesmerist and suddenly the fight is over.


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This is why in the comics, the Avengers have a "final solution" for the Hulk and why Batman keeps a suit of armor powered in part by kryptonite. High DPR is fine, when it's focused at evil.

I don't think it is bad to build for DPR, but I think its foolish to build ONLY for DPR and then not expect that decision to bite you in some way. I've seen this happen in my own games, and not always in the form of failed Will saves. The 2h barbarian who has NO ranged weapons; the blaster wizard who is dealing with energy immunity; the brutal dwarf fighter who can't get up to the front line.

I'm not saying that every player should work to eliminate their PC's weaknesses. I do think though that it is the responsibility of the players to understand what those weaknesses are and compensate for them in some way. In the case of the ranger in the example above, it might be prudent to have a "PC subdual plan" prepped. Entangle effects, sleep poison, enchantment negation spells or just Dispel Magic, etc.

Anyway, to the title of the thread no, high DPR is not a bad thing. Understand though that hyperspecialization in any one aspect of the game comes with the risk of falling woefully behind in other areas. Be aware and be willing to deal with consequences.


I'd like to try this. What's a good rule of thumb for the feats you give out? Right off the bat I'm thinking they must be either General or MAYBE Teamwork. Any other suggestions? Does anyone have a "Feat pool" they'd be willing to share?


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I have two daughters who've played several times at home with me. Currently they're 11 and 13, but they've played back as early as 7 and 9. The one thing that never fails: games get very cinematic.

My girls never say to me: I'm going to move up using Stealth and inspect the area; my Perception check is X

Instead it's: I move up with lots of caution. You said there's a clearing right? I'll look around really carefully, try and see if there's anything in the leaves on the ground that looks like a trap. Maybe a weird shape, or a mound or something.

Then when the older one DID find something she thought was a trap; a bunch of vines under the leaves she looks over her spells (playing a wizard) and goes: Ok, I have Mage Hand. I'm gonna pick up a branch, brush away some leaves until I can clearly see the vines. Then I'll pick up a heavy rock and drop it on the vines and other areas in the leaves to see if I can set it off.

In short: my girls see Pathfinder as an action movie, not a game.

If you're running PFS modules, let the kids try anything and get away with some stuff. If they're playing more cinematically try to roll with it.


One nice thing about Enhanced Diplomacy: it works on Intimidate too. One PC in our party is Large sized (GM ok'd a minotaur playable race) so he's working off of a Reach build, using the Blade of Mercy trait and he has the Enforcer feat.

I'm going to ask my GM if, instead of Guidance/Resistance/Virtue on before every fight, I can replace Virtue with Enhanced Diplomacy on the minotaur. I know he's already got ridiculous Intimidate but another +2 on top is a decent buff. Our combat rounds should go like this:

My wolf mount gets us into position to set up a Flank with the minotaur; the wolf and I both ready actions for when he's done. The Minotaur attacks into the flank; my readied action triggers and I grant him Aid Another. His hit causes Shaken on the foe. My wolf then attacks; if he hits he triggers a potential Trip. If THAT'S successful the foe is Prone, Shaken and has taken some damage. Next round if said foe attempts to stand he's eating AoOs.


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@ Mr Green Jeans: yes, a sandbox, but one where the players REALLY take charge. Right now I have three "sandbox" games, all of which I spoon-fed my players plot lines until they took the bait. Not so much sandbox as they are "non-linear."

I want players to sit down to MY table and for THEM to tell ME: here's what's gonna happen. We're gonna go here so we can try to find this or accomplish this goal.

My players just seem so... passive. I get it at level 1, adventure 1, you want a little direction. But by level 5 after we've played this homebrew setting for a year, you STILL need me to give you a set of "potential plot points?"

Seriously. I want my players to take crafting skills and feats; I've even offered them as bonus feats in one game. All three of these games is using the Ultimate Campaign rules for Downtime. I want my players to go, get invested in the gameworld and be engaged as players in what their characters want. Form alliances, build items and businesses, make enemies.

My players want none of this.

My players want to sit down, week after week, and find out who the monster/villain of the week is. They want plots handed to them, then they want those plots to be "you start here... fight these foes... go to here... figure out X and finally... beat the BBEG." Too much American TV if you ask me.

So I guess it's not a different campaign I want. It's different players. Anyone in this thread interested in a sandbox and living in MN, USA?


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I frickin LOVED Van Helsing. Every Inquisitor I've ever made in PF has been modeled after Jackman's character. The main female character was super hot (in my opinion), the villains were super over the top but in a good way, and Jackman himself was very good. Plus... David Wenham. Oh yeah, you KNOW you love everything this guy does. His voice overs on Ultimate Warrior, Faramir in LotR, EVERYTHING.

In looking through this thread, I'm realizing I seem to only like "bad" films. Do the movies Cube and Cube 2: Hypercube count as "bad?" If so... I'm IN!

And last, but certainly not least: Keanau Reeves. My defense of this legend of acting goes as far back as River's Edge with Crispin Glover and Dennis Hopper. Bill and Ted, Fatherhood, My Private Idaho, Feeling Minnesota... he's done PLENTY of great jobs.

My own personal fave though? Con... Stan... Tine.

That's Right. I said it. I thought he was AWESOME as John Constantine. I haven't seen John Wick, so for me Constantine was GENIUS!

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go watch The Replacements for the 121'st time...


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I'd like to run a game where the players really guide the action. I mean really. Like, I just set up the setting but really get into that setting y'know? Like multi-paragraphs of history, locations, etc. Then I just turn to my players and go "what do you want to do?" From there, they just go and I just tell the players what they see when they get there.

This is how we used to play when I was a kid. I guess most of my games nowadays are an effort to re-create my childhood. Sad, I admit.

Anyway I used to just show up with my homemade (read: terrible) map, lots of info if people asked for it, and then the players had their own motivations and goals. Like when my buddy waned from level 1 to have an elemental-powered sword and through the whole campaign he just guided the party to different locales until he assembled everything he needed for the Artifact Sword of Water.

FYI; that sword is how my homebrew's "Second Age" ended. It was used to open a gate to the elemental plane of water thereby drowning an entire empire. Unfortunately my buddy's PC was killed in the process so... Atlantis.


So, got a text from my potential gamers last night. The players are looking for something silly/fun. I'm thinking of Master of the Fallen Fortress. Are there any basic PFS modules that might be good as well?

Also @ murder mysteries: 2 players don't know the game at all and we'll be playing late at night with adult beverages at the table. I don't know that it's a conducive atmosphere for thinking.

I'm leaning toward something loose and fast that I can add my own spin to easily. I don't think this will lead on into a campaign, but you never know.


Have I missed it in this thread or do you have any general feats? Also, do you ever mess around with Skills and how they're used?


My character is a Halfling, so no Darkvision or Low-light Vision. Based on that I could see a case for light, but it seems like it's needed pretty rarely. If I took spark however I could always just start something on fire in an emergency for a light source.

I like Create Water as a defense and I'll run that past my GM. I also like that Create Water actually makes... water.

Guidance and Resistance come up pretty regularly. I suppose you folks are right though; I could probably dump Virtue. So if Guidance and Resistance stay in the rotation, how about these as my choices:

Warpriest: Create Water, Guidance, Mending, Resistance

Hunter: Detect Magic, Enhanced Diplomacy, Spark, Stabilize

The only thing I'm on the fence about is Detect Magic. We've got an Arcanist in the party that has ridiculous Knowledge and Spellcraft checks; she typically takes Detect Magic and is like a magic sonar I.D.'ing everything in a 60' radius constantly. If I instead take Virtue in place of Detect Magic, I don't think it'll make much difference over the long haul.


No. Unless your game is a one-shot, it will never recover.


So... Divine Commander Warpriest?


So, I'm wondering what to run as a one shot adventure. I'll have four players, late at night, ringing in the new year with gaming. 2 players know the basics, the other four only know how to play an RPG. All four are in their late 20's/early 30's and are looking for fun, crazy and silly.

I don't want to run the beginner box stuff since they know at least the basics. I also want to stay away from We Be Goblins since one of them has played that before. Otherwise, sky's the limit. Normally I homebrew, so if someone just has a general suggestion on a short plot that might be fun for an evening, I'm all ears.


Goddity wrote:
Read this

Dude, I'm IN that thread as an active poster. Also no cloak of Resistance yet; we're in Reign of Winter; so far we've been in a village... and a village. No cloak avail yet.

So my GM is letting me spam Guidance, Resistance and Virtue so I have all three running on me and my mount at the start of every battle. The other orisons I'm looking for utility outside the standard "array." I thought Create Water and Spark might come in handy. I could Spark one of the smokesticks we've picked up as treasure for an instant Concealment or I could use Create Water for water OR as a way to generate ice in the frozen lands we're traveling through.

Stabilize might come in handy. Mending too. Does Light get used a lot? So far we've had a lot of wilderness encounters during the daytime.


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I like Keanau Reeves. That's right, I said it. I also like Nicholas Cage. Not in a "ha ha, I'm ironic and I wear a vest and have a goatee and call myself a hipster but also I'm making fun of the whole movement because I'm witty and clever" kind of way.

No, I LIKE them. I think their acting is great. I think both could do some serious acting if given the pairing with a great director. Would they ever win academy awards? I don't know; I'm not into awards shows.

I also like Vin Diesel. I think Pitch Black or whatever that first Riddick movie was called was some of the greatest action I've seen in a long time. "I'm gonna kill you with this cup." Yeah, he said THAT. And it was awesome, and you watched the heck out of it.

Y'know what else I liked? Soldier with Kurt Russel. Don't know if it qualifies as "Bad" for the purposes of this thread, but I don't really care. I like the main character for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is Kurt Russel. But one of the reasons to love him is the same reason I love the Clone Wars cartoon: he calls ANYONE "sir." And that freaking line:

- What are you going to do now?
*close up on Russel*
- I'm going to KILL them all sir.

That line was delivered in the most chilling way possible: as a statement of ABSOLUTE fact.

MY GOD I love the films in this thread! Ok, tomorrow the wife and kids are on their own. I'm going trolling through Netflix for Legend with Tom Cruise, followed by Hawk the Slayer and ending with Ice Pirates!


So I'm a Warpriest 4 and my next level I'm taking Hunter 1. That puts me at 4 orisons from the Cleric spell list and another 4 from Druid. Right now in a given day I'm taking the holy trinity: Guidance, Resistance, Virtue. The other 5 I'm stumped on.

I know you don't always use a lot of orisons/0 level spells at level 5, but what advice can you give on 0 levels that you actually still use? If it helps I'm playing in the Reign of Winter AP.

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