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Leonard Kriegler

Mark Hoover's page

4,754 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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A few suggestions:

1. Not everyone/thing in the dungeon is a villain: I have a large homebrewed dungeon and in building I thought "why would humanoids have coins as treasure?" The obvious answer was to buy things but from who? The obvious answer again was that there was some kind of economy among the humanoids. Therefore they have to be willing to buy, sell and trade stuff. Why not to adventurers? From this line of thinking I created whole sections of the dungeon as well as traveling "merchants" that would serve the PCs' needs such as potion-peddlers, neutral "inns" of a kind and even a modest trade town for use by low-level adventurers.

2. Bend the rules of time and space: there was a great article in Dungeon magazine back in '06 about adding extra-dimensional spaces in dungeons. One of the spaces was a pocket dimension that appeared once in a while to help provide food and rest to adventurers. There are a lot of ways to do this. You could make it a divine respite provided by the gods, some First World portal from helpful faeries, a permanent Mansion spell from some old wizard or just simply a timeless pocket dimension. Whatever the case you might limit its use through everchanging passwords or some other challenge.

3. LOTS of consumables: this one's an easy solution. If you have a party spellcaster that refuses to capitalize on the value of cantrips at low level or wield a weapon when spells run out and you don't want to frustrate them further drop in consumables like scrolls, potions and wands. Even alchemical weapons replace low level spells and keep the action going just as well. Consider: at 1st level an average loot pile is worth roughly 260 GP. If you threw in just 4 1st level scrolls, say Mage Armor, Sleep, Expeditious Retreat and Magic Missile now the arcane caster is set for the next couple rooms and you've still got 160 GP left in the loot pile for the rest of the party.

4. Remind players to use their other skills/feats: a lot of players need reminders that their PC is more than their consumable powers. Using Survival you can rig up simple snares; you can use this skill and some available rope to defend a room while you sleep. PCs can work on certain magic items or mundane items while they adventure, albeit very slowly. Clever players memorize where that pit trap is and use Disable Device to reset it, then lead the next monster back to the thing to try and trap their foes.

Dungeon delving at low to mid level is daunting, no doubt. Most modern players at my table are expecting 10 rooms to explore, tops. Even after I tell them there are MILES of dungeon before them they shrug, grab some basic gear and start going nova in rooms 2 or three. They need reminders that this kind of adventure, the MEGADUNGEON adventure, is about resource management.

You can't clear a megadungeon. The players need to be aware and accepting of that fact. Once they do and they're still willing to play that style of game suddenly their minds switch. I have one player who is running a level 3 sorcerer. I've only seen him use a 1st level spell maybe 3 or four times in all our game sessions. This is because he almost exclusively uses Acid Splash plus a flask of acid as a Material Focus. It's not tons of damage but it's reliable and everlasting for every fight, every round.

Magic only goes up, along with everything else in this game. Adventuring wizards are assumed to be constantly studying between adventures, so they always get new spells when they level. More spells, more WBL; onwards and upwards.

So what if you just simply had a mechanic for loss?

Non-artifact magic items faded over time; adventurers can take months of downtime but they might lose xp; spellcasting weakens if not constantly maintained.

I don't know, I'm just spitballing. It just seems like alongside the astute observation that a lot of low-magic desires stem from ridiculous amounts of magic items, the other piece of it is "gritty" versus "glittery" style and if you're shooting for realism, why not just have things get worse once in a while?

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I think one reason folks go low magic is to limit magic items. I think one of the reasons for THAT is simply that magic items never break.

People in this thread have equated magic to technology in the real. Well, I'd disagree because my computer can get a virus, my car can break down from wear and even my push-point pen can get jammed.

When was the last time a wondrous item in PF wore out?

Now you can have charged items, sure. Consumables are fine. But when you have, say a Handy Haversack, unless someone targets you with a Sunder attempt or something the device NEVER breaks. Ever.

Consider that for a second. What if you could make a blender that would NEVER break unless you physically destroyed it on purpose. The motor would never weaken; the blades would remain sharp for literal centuries; the lid would fit as snugly on the millionth blend as on the first.

That's ridiculous, but yet that's magic items in Pathfinder. So for some folks this simple truth makes limiting magic items imperative. If you can always consistently count on your armor, bracers, belt, Ioun Stone or whatever to never falter unless specifically targeted by an enemy that means that your players will ALWAYS have that level of power at their disposal.

Frankly for my games I play the system as is. I don't really care too much about the magic level, demographics, realistic economies and such. I'm playing a game where a mortal male was drunk one night, in the right place at the right time, and blacked out; suddenly he is an immortal, eternal power of the universe with millions of worshippers and near-limitless magic. Yeah, there's no comparison to my reality there at all.

Tread lightly. This is my only advice. I speak from experience.

If you toss out an ad for players at random, be ready for a random assortment of players. The more well defined your intention is in the ad, the more defined your players' expectations will be but the fewer responses you'll receive.

The real problem, above all else, is one of communication and language. You say you want intertwined characters with a pre-existing connection. Your players may wonder "why?" You mention emotional investment; suddenly people are asking "what do you define as emotional; how DEEP an investment?"

My version of investment and yours might vary wildly. I might show up with a well-practiced elven accent wearing fantasy garb with a foam bow strapped to my shoulder, ready to completely transform into the persona of Lythos, the elven ranger. However you might have meant "it's a light game of beer, pretzels and dungeon hacking; just don't kill each other when the healing potions run low."

But once you feel confident dropping your hook in the waters of potential players a good way to get everyone together as a group is to have a session zero. Literally no roleplaying or games of any kind. Meet in a neutral place in the real world or, if you're hosting online just show up at the hosting site. Then chat, plather, and otherwise hob-nob with your fellow gamers.

Tell them about yourself and encourage them to do the same. Create a safe, social environment full of common ground among all of you. Be inclusive. This is a good time to level with your potential players in person - tell them why you've put this game together and what you hope to get out of it. Also make a point to ask them what they hope to get out of the experience.

Finally, at the end of session zero, make characters. Do this togehter, sitting with one another or while you're all online together. Sure, it's not time-efficient but by making characters in this way you're actively sharing your first role playing experience as a group.

Vibe off one another. "Oh, you're gonna be a fighter? I was thinking of going fighter too. My guy was going to go sword and board... and you're thinking polearms? Cool! Maybe your guy and my guy work together, like one taking down the foes close up and guarding the polearm guy with his shield. Kind of like a team..."

Hopefully this works for you.

Skeletal Champion FTW. Go back and read your Disney. In the book of Pirates of the Carribean:

For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it; too long I've been starvin' to death but haven't died. I FEEL nothin'; not the wind on my face nor the spray of the sea. Nor the warmth of a woman's flesh...

A dead captain barking out orders to a skeleton crew on a doomed ship. It almost writes itself, savvy?

Invisibility does it. If you're a cleric cast Sanctuary on your little buddy and have them deliver touch spells to your friends, not your enemies. Otherwise consider Acrobatics.

Your familiar can move at half speed as part of a Move action with a DC of 5 + your enemy's CMD. On a successful roll your familiar moves through an enemy's square w/out suffering an AoO. If you take ranks in Acrobatics your familiar can use them and regardless of your class the familiar treats Acrobatics as a class skill.

As an example an owl at 1st level has a 60' fly movement. It also has a 17 Dex. It can move 30' delivering a Touch attack using your 1 rank in Acrobatics. It's rolling a +7 Acrobatics check against an average DC of 17. If you have time to buff you can add Guidance to this or other situational modifiers.

A note on Small familiars, touch attacks and AoOs. If you feel like your little buddy should get into that kind of position anyway, consider taking a goat (Small sized familiar) and having them make Full Round action Touch attacks with their Gore attack. They have a +2 (1d4 +1) melee attack which, if successful, deals its damage and delivers the Touch attack. Now you have a familiar inflicting 7 damage on a 1st level Chill Touch spell.

Hey fiendie, I'll make you a fantastic deal. I'll take the win in exchange for some goatee wax.

So I've surfed through here and skimmed some posts, mostly TOZ's 'cuz, well, he's him. Anyway, I have to say I agree w/one of his basic premises: the whole game is basically the GM saying "you win" or not. No matter how fair, clever or dice-ruled your GM is, at the end of the day they can tell you whatever they want is the result of every roll. They can lie, cheat, add extra HP, spontaneously change rules or whatever to fit their view. The fact that some DON'T do these things doesn't put any more control in the players' hands; it just means that the GM's decision or whim swung that way.

That's the reality. Players can cheat too, but they're bound to the character they have in front of them, so their control is limited. The GM on the other hand has control over the entire game. They decide what you're facing, why, and what the result of your actions are.

I know that's tough to swallow but this isn't a board game where we're all playing to the same rules. One participant is making everything up, presenting it to the others and then presiding over the result. The other participants are simply making suggestions to the GM and hoping for the best.

This is why it always strikes me as funny when someone says "I want a GM who challenges me to think, RP, and is generally clever." GM's aren't clever; they're either good or bad manipulators, nothing more.

Now please understand: I'm writing this even as I'm actively pursuing becoming a player in a couple guys' games. I accept all of the above as fact in this hobby. I don't see it as good OR bad, just the reality.

I don't mean to disparage or offend. If I did, I'm sorry. And TOZ, keep being you. Your wit-grenades in these threads are freaking awesome.

I haven't gotten my campaign started yet but my plan was to start the PCs off at level one but not in the region of the ferry. I bought The Lost City of Barakus and was going to start the party out in the wilderness there, then move into that mini-campaign and include ties to the growing menace of RA. Finally once the Barakus thing was complete, putting the PCs around 5th level I was going to put in a level of "epic journey" up the coast from the Barakus region to Zelkor's Ferry.

You might not use Barakus but this might be a good way to pull it together. Have the party start in the hinterlands to the south, have a couple wilderness encounters and hit the Ferry at 2nd level. Have them take a couple cursory missions from there getting them to 3rd or 4th, then send them into the "Dungeon of Graves." All the advice I got from friends who'd played RA when I started planning was that sending in PCs lower than 3rd level either required compassion on my part as a GM or would require serious, hardcore optimizers willing to flee at a moment's notice from the players.

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213. one I actually used in a game was the start to a campaign involving fey. Mites had snuck into the undercroft and cellar of the tavern. A couple of them got bold enough to even climb up the stairs and hide out in the rafters and dark corners of the taproom. Then the fun began.

When the crowd was rowdy and with the PCs present the mites started pranking, hard. The drinks suddenly tasted sour or spoiled; the food tasted super peppery or salty; a drink was tipped onto a barbarian and the resulting stain on his hide armor turned bright pink. Prestidigitations were all over the place.

To tip it over the edge the mites used their vermin empathy. They started urging harmless insects living in the woodwork like flies, ants and spiders to come swarming into the room crawling into people's food, drinks and clothes. The place erupted in a brawl but the PCs were allowed to notice the snickering mites hidden in the periphery. Now all they had to do was GET to them through the fight...

Mending is now the PERFECT spell for any NPC. As long as you keep all the pieces you can repair ANY weapon by level 15; all light and most 1 handed by 5th. That's not a bad little business. Take a rank in Craft (weaponsmithing) as well as levels in Adept. You are a talented weapon maker and devout of (x) who can repair weapons in 10 minutes. Sure, right in the middle of a dungeon it's not helpful but hire this guy to protect the camp. All those old, nasty rusty swords the skeletons are carrying? Money in the bank.

And why stop at weapons? Dungeon sconces, ancient maps and illegible tomes, locks, used ammo, old shields and clothes. Consider that fashion always goes in cycles; you come across some old zombie in their burial dress - it can be fixed up and good as new in 10 minutes, then sold as "vintage" for serious cash!

Oh man, I think I have a new reason for a shop selling magic items. Take 1 adept with Medning, Detect Magic and Prestidigitation. Put a dungeon nearby with tons of "smalls" like vases, books, hand tools, light or one-handed weapons, etc. Suddenly you have not some old witch in the woods but a tidy shopkeep with a curio shop crammed full of antiquities. 90% of these are non-magical but being sold at higher prices because of their history and such, like a RL antique shop. The other 10% are very minor items that the adept either enchanted themselves (take Scribe Scroll or if the adept is high level enough Craft Wondrous Item) or is the rare minor magic item brought back from the dungeon.

Abe's Antiques? 2nd Time Around run by April O'Neill? Oh the possibilities...

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203. a "Your mom" joke contest gets out of hand

204. "Got 'yer nose" game goes terribly awry

205. A man and his 2 female roommates get into another zany misunderstanding

206. Someone eats the salmon mousse

207. a male duelist walks in, picks out someone in the crowd and calmly announces "halo, my name is Anigo Montoya. You kill'd my father; prepare to die."

208. A man with the death sentence in 12 systems doesn't like you

209. Bees

210. "Wow, the warm yellow mead you're serving seems like it got real sour in a hurry!" to which the bartender replies "I'm not serving any warm yellow mead..."

Shadowborn wrote:
My only problem with the latest episode was a skilled mercenary, having a sniper rifle and a clear shot to a target that had no idea he was there, taking the time to go all the way to street level and causing a panic with the gun he was carrying to take a closer shot, thereby ruining everything so Coulson could swoop in and save the day. Makes no sense, except as an obvious way to move the plot.

Double agent maybe?

Magic items are inherently masterwork yes? Perhaps its their masterwork construction that makes magic items recoverable. Perhaps then it stands that Mending works to recover destroyed masterworks? Just grasping at straws here...

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If the player wants to skip the level of cleric have them find a level 1 adept NPC. Said adept has CLW studied for the day. The player pays them 10 GP for casting the spell into their newly created wand, and it's done.

Also if you're using Ultimate Campaign's Downtime rules, the PC could use a skill to earn Magic capital at the cost of 50 GP/pt. Spending one pt of magic capital is then the equivalent of 100 GP towards the cost of the wand. In this manner they could work a bit more to earn the capital and spend 200 GP instead of 375 for the creation of the wand.

Finally it might be worth it to just have the player research Infernal Healing as one of their spells. This is a 1st level spell that grants 1 minute (10 rounds) of Fast Healing 1. Essentially this is (over the full minute) more healing than CLW at CL 1 and costs the same for the PC to put in a wand. Of course, they have to find either 50 doses of unholy water or a vial (50 drops) of devil blood, but I'm sure that's in every corner apothecary right?

TOZ wrote:
XP is for chumps.

I don't know that I'd have put it so... succinctly but there you go. That being said, I get the OP's position on RP and rewarding it. There's an article here that I refer my players to, especially the shy ones. In particular I cite #1 and 11 to my gamers in that I say: "be present."

To me that's all RP is. You don't have to be a great thespian. I do have an expectation that, even in the "talky" scenes you will try to get involved and do SOMETHING. Even the player who says "I sit in the bar" while other action is happening is doing something.

To this point I make an effort to take turns, even out of combat. I go around the table and ask folks what they're doing. If the ranger is scouting ahead, what are you doing in the hallway? If the sorcerer is at the bar chatting up a contact, what are you doing in town? By engaging everyone hopefully they will participate in some way.

I don't reward roleplaying; at least, not with anything tangible like XP or gold. Instead I reward with opportunity. You go sit in the bar? Ok, a guy/girl hits on you; what do you do? Maybe that turns out to be the BBEG or maybe they're just an NPC - either way this connection will provide more in the narrative we've created. I do tell my players however that their level of engagement in the gameworld will determine certain boons, favors and other intangibles given back to them by said world. If the player runs his PC like a close-mouthed loner who camps in the wilderness and doesn't even talk to the animals (no RP) then, not surprisingly, the gameworld ignores them.

Hey, how you folks doin? For me? *grabs win* Wow, thanks!

In my homebrew of Karnoss there is a dark fairy tale theme. All the different churches combined their inquisitions into one Grand Inquisition meant to go around burning witches and hunting the vile fey. These inquisitors call themselves the Hexbane.

Hexbane Inquisitors have featured in 2 different plotlines and were responsible for such a terrible mass book burning and purge that the entire land went through a Dark Age. Whole colleges were torn down, innocents perished alongside the wicked and magic in general became hated and feared.

My vote is for Hexbane, followed immediately by Paza Vrajitoare, Romanian for Witch Guard with Hansel as a close second. Honestly make all the jokes you want, that's just good naming right there!

Dang it MEL, you beat me to it! Seconded for Dragon's Demand. It's a good concise story in several chapters and you can blow through it in the limited time you have. I don't know if it'll get you to 15th level, but maybe you can tack on a homebrew somewhere.

Comic book Creel spent a lot of time in the company of a prisoner's ball and chain. Said ball and chain was magically transformed into a substance of Asgardian level power. Whenever he needed a pick-me-up he grabbed his weapon. Add to that the fact that he wasn't very bright and yeah, I can see him not walking around with a diamond in his pocket.

In the show? See: Rynjinn's last post

Slick Willy Hair-bomb is banned for not knowing: Hoovers Suck! (get it; Hoover vacuum? Humor is lost on the irisless...)

Well ok, but I sewed the win into the rear of my swim trunks.

Last night's game was fun. It's a homebrew. The PCs:

Defina - CG human female inquisitor (Iomedae)3
Tami - NG half-elf female fighter 3
Micah - NG Halfling male sorcerer (faerie dragon bloodline)3
Viorec - CG human ranger (dungeon delver)3

So the adventure is simple: go into a dungeon, map it out, and recover specific religious items there. The party is 5 rooms into a section of the dungeon populated by mites (with 2 levels of warrior added) and giant centipedes. They come to the final boss fight of this section to find 2 mite warrior 2 guards riding giant centipedes, a mite witch 2 and a centipede swarm.

The bad guys are pretty high in the initiatives so the PCs are caught in a hallway blocked by the guards and their mounts. The witch had previously commanded the swarm to advance on the trespassers so she hexes Defina to sleep. Things look bad; the swarm is creeping up, the guards have the group pinned and one PC is down. Up steps Micah and Tami.

The half-elf surges in, risking an AoO and power attacks/cleaves through one guard and into the mount below him. Tami hit so hard that both of them are incapacitated and dying. The sorcerer meanwhile breathes his breath weapon: a cloud of Euphoria Gas. This sickens and staggers the other mount. The rider ordered the centipede to retreat so Tami leaps in with her own AoO and hits that mount's rider hard enough to knock him to exactly zero HP. So with its unconscious rider on its back the centipede skitters, capering, along the walls, it's antennae waving as if dancing.

The witch attempts and Undine's Curse spell on the slumbering inquisitor but she resists. In comes the swarm and starts devouring the party. Then out of nowhere the ranger comes in with Vermin Affinity. He decides he wants to try and push the centipede swarm back on the witch. I ask for a contested roll and he 20's. The ranger, with a full-round begins willing the swarm back!

Not to be outdone Tami executes a miraculous vaulting cartwheel out of the swarm's area hurling a vial of alchemist's fire on them as she goes. The Halfling similarly drops another vial of the stuff even as it's turning toward the witch. Horrified the witch attempts to retreat while trying her own contested roll against the ranger and failing. The swarm eventually overwhelms her and she is consumed by her own most powerful "minion."

There's only one dangling thread left: what happened to the rider who got slashed across the eye but didn't die? Time will tell...

Granny Ray Ray is banned because it's been too darn long since I haven't seen them!

Ok... let's go dumpster diving
*goes after otyugh with flippers, mask and snorkel*

Hitdice wrote:
Gnomezrule wrote:

LOL the chart was actually at the vets office. My point was people are applying a ration to maturation when nothing like a straight ratio actually is scientifically accurate. I was trying (unsuccessfully) to point out that the working 7 to 1 ration for dogs isn't really accurate so using an analogous ration for humans to elves might make it easy to understand but not terribly realistic.

As for what PF supports the only thing that I have found RAW is starting adventuring age. I looked through the PF elves book very little is said about how they grow up.

I am extremely sympathetic to the argument if they spent 60 years in school they should have higher skills but what I was hoping to express is that I think the starting ages where an attempt to point to the general age or earliest age you could expect to meet an adventuring elf.

Oh, right, a chart that wasn't in an RPG book; I would have thought of that eventually. :P

I think you're right about the starting ages. It seems like this topic gets a new thread every three to four months, but no one worries about what the dwarf clerics were doing for the first seventy years of their lives when a human starts at twenty-seven. Don't ask me.

They were stoned. Get it? 'Cuz they're dwarves?


Whatevs. This topic will never be resolved.

Happy Birthday Pan-the-Man-the-Dirty-Can! Unfortunately I've got a weird day Saturday: the wife's company party til 2pm then my own home game from 3pm - ??

Have a great one. Hopefully the games go your way tomorrow!

The tarmac had a chip from a woman's engagement ring mixed in it. Add this to the fact that the Marvel Super Heroes game from 1985 suggests that when Absorbing Man absorbs a material he gains Strength and Body Armor equal to the substance he's absorbing. Also it goes on to say that he can absorb energy as well. I posit that the diamond/asphalt mix was stronger than normal tarmac giving him better than average properties for absorbing the road's surface coupled with a spontaneous absorbtion and redirection of the force of the car at the moment of impact caused the scene we witnessed in the show.

There are fields Neo; vast fields. Elves are no longer born... they are GROWN.

Could be that elves ripen like fruit. Not figuratively but literally. They are drawn to nature because they grow as part of the local flora for roughly 100 years at which point they go through a metamorphosis from Plant to Humanoid creature type.

In human societies there are groves or stands or woodlots or parks or fungal patches or gardens or whatever that house developing elves. These humanoids stumble out naked into society and without elven guidance are generally confused and isolated. Their natural proclivity towards dexterity and intelligence coupled with a general physical frailty due to a weakened constitution in relation to human counterparts ensures that most other races either kill them outright as weak monsters or take them in out of pity.

Otherwise I like the "they only have one child every hundred years" thing.

RDM42 wrote:
So for more than a hundred years, all they think about is sex and food?

I thought we said elves AREN'T like humans?

Marvel has a long and glorious tradition of ignoring science or inventing their own. Stan Lee in an interview once about the Fantastic Four uttered a phrase that's stuck with me my whole life: "I know nothing of science." Gamma bombs, cosmic rays, radioactive spider bites, these things MUST be accepted to have the Marvel universe.

One time in a comic book I saw Colossus leap in front of a speeding truck and PUNCH it in the engine block. The vehicle "THOOMED" around him and he was completely unmoved by the impact, the force of the explosion, or anything. He didn't even lose his pants. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say if you're watching Agents of Shield hoping for sciency bits, its likely you'll be disappointed.

I loved it. All of it. The sorrow, the down notes, the rough start and the

willingness to do it all for a Quinjet
. I just hope that Coulson remains the one point of light and humor in all this. He has been the one thing in the show that seemed the most human; everyone else in the first season was a stereotype or a drama queen or whatever. But Coulson was the leader who didn't have all the answers; the guy that was willing to throw humor along with grenades; the dude who freaked out on the doorstep of the secret base. I LIKE that guy and I tune in for him. If he gets too hard and dark, the show might be over quick for me.

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I don't know how to defend or refute a lot of the stuff going on in this thread. One thought occurred to me though. There are 35 core skills; 21 of these are Int and Dex based. Of these 21, 7 can be used untrained, one of which is Craft which has a number of different permutations. When an elf begins play at level 1 they have a +2 to Int and Dex. This means, on top of the basic stat bonuses they also get one extra skill rank to start and one extra language.

What if, on top of maturing a little slower than a human, they are trying lots of different untrained skills. Not sitting and focusing on them mind you (not a ton of skill ranks piling up) but one day they try Craft: basketweaving; the next couple days they try their hand at acrobatics; for the next week they alternate between watching grass grow and attempting to appraise old tapestries in the great hall.

After 100 years they've only managed to master a few ranks worth of skills, but they've actually attempted every kind acrobatic move, appraisal, craft, escape trick, flying, riding any kind of animal they could mount up on, practiced stealth in any situation imaginable and mastered a second language.

They've also practiced with short and long bows, rapiers and longswords, elven curve blades (maybe they're not proficient but they've messed with one a bit so it's martial instead of exotic) and they've studied the very basics of magic properties on items (+2 to identify properties with Spellcraft). They've also honed their senses. Not just one or 2 but ALL FIVE senses to acct for their +2 Perception.

Elves at 1st level are jacks (or jills) of all trades but masters of only, say, one or 2.

Another explanation would be a racial ADHD that they learn to finally cope with and work around by, say, age 90.

The ram's duration is "instantaneous." How long then does the Confusion effect from a head shot last? The spell states that they get a will save to end the effect; does this mean they just keep attempting the save until they make it?

Oh, you mean this?

Randy is banned for not reading the report I left on his desk


Thanks for getting rid of that doppleganger

Glad to have your UNDIVIDED attention

Poog is banned for fleeing the scene

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195. A bard walked in, cast darkness then called out "LET'S GET READY TO RUMMMBLLEEE!!!" accompanied by a frenzied techno beat.

196. Your favorite armor was stained by Dragonsblood cabernet; a red wine that never comes out no matter how many Prestidigitations you cast.

197. Because: Tuesday

198. When you caught the gnomes with the scrying/recording lenses looking up your skirt they claimed it was for research.

199. The bell rang

200. Everybody was Kung Fu Fighting

185. A young man stands at a table, attempting to woo the woman of his dreams. Just as he delivers his best line a burly man enters the bar and calls the wooer out by name "Hey X, I thought I told you never to come in here again. Now it's gonna cost you..." Problem is; the pcs NEED the young man and his paramour to get together...

Ok, so...

The First World is so called because it's the blueprint the gods used for the Prime right? Also some fluff in one of the books said that fey are merely spirits and they're eternal on their home turf of the First World. So from that I've ruled this: summoned creatures come from the First World.

The spirit-stuff of that place (plane? world? other?) is drawn out by the spell and given form as dictated by the summoner. As the spirit materializes and the form is dictated the nature of the Prime causes the spirit to assume the form of that creature as readily accepted by the Prime. A riding dog generally looks like X, so when a spirit is summoned and dictated to be a riding dog the Prime frames the creature to look like that.

Templates are a tad harder to explain. My theory is that the summoner siphons off a bit of the planar power from a plane corresponding to the template. A Celestial Hawk then is a First World spirit occupying the form of a hawk with a very careful, pin-prick sized siphon drawing an array of powers from a Celestial plane. This is not to say the deity(ies) native to that plane, just the plane itself.

This helped me explain to a player how, when the creature appears it always looks the same and what happens to it if the summoned monster is slain. If it IS slain, the spirit-stuff merely returns to the First World and is reborn eternal.

When you start getting into the sentient beings from other planes (elementals, mephits, demons, etc) I suppose you're literally drawing those creatures from the very planes they inhabit. I'm sure they're ticked off and I suppose that's why you need other spells to bind them more permanently and protect yourself from their retributions and such. I suppose in the case of those creatures you could also explain that they are drawn directly from the plane itself and did not exist in this form before the time of the summoning. Post-summons then the stuff of them returns to their native plane none the wiser.

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Y'know the ones I never understood? Dwarves.

Look at the OP. Dwarves are fairly long-lived and take 5 decades to hit 1st level. Unlike Elves or Gnomes however dwarves are depicted, at least by the fluff, racial bonuses and Golarion-specific religious focus as being studious, hard-working crafting types. Are they spending 2 decades just mastering how to hold a hammer or looking at rocks?

For all these races, I favor a more mystic approach. They actually live several lives. They are not Time Lords; they do not regenerate. They mature and go off on their first life adventure, or their second or what have you. Some die on these; they are not PCs. Others accumulate miraculous success transcending their race; these are not PCs either.

PC characters are elves, dwarves and gnomes who fall into the average for their races. They have 2, 3, 4, maybe even 5 lifetimes worth of experiences, each time going to some central repository and downloading these into a collective consciousness. Each time they retain maybe a fraction of their knowledge. By the time they are being played as a PC they are off on another whirlwind adventure at the end of which they will either die or be allowed to continue on. They have reached an age where their mental maturity is able to deal with the extreme length of their lifespan.

If this process wasn't followed by the "Elder Races" they would be teenagers with MASSIVE amounts of levels. Imagine if the races learned at the same pace. You could have an elf with the mental maturity of a 10 year old and 20 levels even of an NPC class. I'm just imagining one of my daughters with 20 levels of Adept: "Why'd you call me a name you Jerkhead! YOU'RE A TOAD!"

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Sissyl wrote:
Elven children are morons. So bad they can't be potty trained for decades. It is... An undertaking. Usually, elven children are stored in what is affectionately called 'moron cocoons', cocoons of plant matter and magic that hang from large trees. When the kids finally grow a brain at about a century of age, they are released from the cocoons.

I've seen this posted before, probably by you, and it's always hilarious. Thanks!

Pan wrote:
I saw J.Roddy Walston and the biz in a small club here in Minneapolis on Monday. Shockingly expensive taps! 12oz 7 dollars I only had one then retreated after the show to a pub down the street. Summit oatmeal stout on tap 16oz for 3 bucks. Oh club jagger what a life saver.

Y'know what Pan? You're fired. You brag about seeing such an awesome show and hitting a nice bar afterwards and don't even have the decency to throw out a PM invite or nothin? I'm not sayin I'm just sayin; I wasn't doin anything Thursday night...

Honestly though I'm just jealous. Glad you had fun and found a decent tap. Most places, even in the burbs are insane for tap beer. A pub near my house in Plymouth: $5 for 2 Surly Hell for happy hour, but then it shoots up to $6 a mug! Seriously?

You've watched this win for me long enough

Dr Giggles

He Who Should Not Be Gnomed

Excelsior. Nuff said.

The P of Z is banned for egregious use of " "

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