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Well, from the invisibility spell, "If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus to its stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving."

I'm not sure what the issue is, mechanically. It's pretty clear that it provides a bonus to stealth. If you're looking for a rationalization, that's different.

The best one I can come up with is, when you don't have to worry about being seen, you can put a lot more attention into moving quietly.

If you're talking about the extra +20 from perception to the dc, mechanically they would stack.

As far as the whole perception thing, I'm going to note that it is possible for something to be effectively invisible without use of the invisibility spell. In that case, the invisible creature who didn't cast invisibility would net only a +20 bonus instead of the whole number.

For example, the pixie is invisible, but not as per the spell. So is the shadow demon, and the spores of the basidirond. Short list, true, but still present.

As an aside, you should check with your dm about leadership and what you can an cannot take as a cohort. Many dm's interpret it differently, some outright ban it, and some will only give you cohorts that they've put together for you.

For a cloaker, it's a cr 5 creature, however it has a few abilities that are unsuitably powerful for an average party. Specifically, the moan ability is fairly strong. Given that, I would probably set a cloaker without class levels at cr 8. Maybe nine, given the composition of the party, but probably 8.

Jah, dm's are scarce as is, and asking for a solo campaign isn't going to make finding one any easier.

Considering this is pretty much the only place we have to communicate inbetween games, a couple thoughts here. If you give me a day to work, I can throw together several scrolls. I'm thinking a few more magic missile, and maybe four magic weapons.

Which brings me to my next topic:

Do we want to set up a party fund for stuff that the party will be using? I've gone through about 70 gold worth of scrolls so far, which is fine since that's what they're there for. But do we want to set up a party fund specifically for stuff like that?

yeah, I need a guest pass

We're looking at:

Ziegnod's running a synthesist summoner
Esmee is running a life oracle
Benchdog's running a fighter.
Andy598d hasn't picked a character type yet.
Sylverthorne is running a healing witch.
Christopher Harris is looking at a rogue.
Caffeinated is looking at a rogue/ranger/inquisitor
I'm running a crafting/bloatmage wizard.

I'm set for tuesday as well :D

Ok, I've decided to go wizard after all. I'll send you the sheet sometime tomorrow.

We're looking at:

Ziegnod's running a summoner
Esmee is looking at an oracle
Benchdog's running a fighter.
Andy598d hasn't picked a character type yet.
Sylverthorne is interested but no mention of character.
Finally, I'm running a wizard.

I'm available any time on tuesdays, so whatever works for everyone else works for me.

As for the two-handed fighter, if you want to run one, you're more than welcome to. I'm just as happy playing something with a few more skill points :D And, with the number of people we're looking at for the group currently, we'll probably end up with duplicate roles anyhow.

So, just to get an idea of the party lookout so far:

Ziegnod wants to run a two-handed fighter
Esmee is looking at an oracle
Bigkilla hasn't commented yet on character type
Andy598d hasn't either, might be scheduling issues there
Sylverthorne is interested but no mention of character.
For myself, I'm happy running a two-handed fighter, a lore oracle, or a wizard. Just depends on what other folks feel like playing.

As another side note, should wizard come up, do you have any home rules for magic item creation?

Looking good so far. Do you have an email you'd like us to send our completed character sheets to? Or some other preference?

Also, starting gold: how do you want to do it?

I'll toss my hat in for interest. I've used maptools and skype almost exclusively in my gaming so far, and I don't have a lot of free cash, so I'd have to use one of your guest passes for d20pro.

I know absolutely nothing about the carrion crown adventure path, so I'd probably be looking at running a two-handed melee type.

Side note,

It doesn't matter if you melt every item on all the npc's bodies. If you're following raw, then you're following wealth by level, which means your dm will figure out a way to get you the appropriate amount of wealth. No matter how many swords are sundered, or bows burned.

The nice thing about dungeons is that many of them are made from stone and thus perfect for fireballs.

Honestly, the way out of this box is to sell those gloves and use the money to buy something non-tortle inscribed.

However, consider that you might not want a way out. If those gloves are trapped, that should be more than suitable evidence of bias on the dm's part and you can really get the other players on your side.

Just remember to take them off before striking the soon-to-appear carbon copied npc version of the turtle guy.

Also, you could always talk another character into trying them on first.

wow, holy thread necro, batman!

Sidenote, you can make knowledge checks with a dc of 10 or lower untrained.

I'd say that these are the important words.
"Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known"

So.

While the cleric can cast all the spells on the cleric list, there is no mention of "spells known".

Thus I would say that the cleric has no valid spells to use the arcane bond power on.

What you say applies to rogues, too. Their HD is one size better than wizard or sorc, and he cannot afford as much in Con as those SAD classes can, so their hp ends up being about equal. Rogue has trouble just surviving in melee combat at low levels, too.

And only archers w/ Point Blank Master dont care about 5 ft stepping. All other archers are quite definitely screwed by Step Up. Far more so than a caster ever is. They don't get some check to not provoke with their bowshots.

Nah, you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that archers didn't care about attacks of opportunity. I was saying that archers didn't care if the wizard took a 5ft step or not before casting, because their range means they can use their readied action as long as the wizard is in sight.

But yeah, there are tons of ways to screw classes over. One more or less isn't game breaking.

Looking at it from the other end of the box, blindfight only allows you to retain your dex bonus if your opponent is invisible. If he's using stealth, well, that's not invisibility. If you're flatfooted, it won't help you either.

For flanking foil, the rogue will probably want offensive defense to stack up on dodge bonuses. It's not a given that his opponent is going to hit him, and if he misses then he doesn't get the benefits of flanking foil.

People actually think DC 15 + 2*spell level is hard?

Like, a 20 to start in casting stat caster (I can do it on 15 point buy, no problem, don't tell me it's hard) has trouble making that by mid levels? Hahano. And nothing's compelling him to use his highest level spell when threatened, either.

And at least he GETS a damn check to use his class feature under duress. One that comes for free with his caster levels, too. No need to spend skill points or anything.

Yep. But in return, no one has to spend a feat to make an attack either.

And it's easy to get a 20 in a starting stat. What's hard is surviving through level 1, 2, 3, until you don't die quite as easily when you bought in for a 20.

Still doesn't get you past those readied attacks though. Archers, btw, are best for that role since they don't have to worry about that 5ft step.

Here's the problem with that. Nothing about that states that the effect stops if the target stops flanking and starts again.

In fact, the duration is "until the start of your next turn". So "while" it is flanking, whether or not it stopped at some point, it's still going to be under the effects of the ability.

Ok.

1. According to the synthesist entry, the eidolon is translucent. It won't work very well as a disguise because the fellow using it is still clearly visible.

2. Being fused doesn't have an automatic effect on diplomacy. The idea is once you allow that class into your campaign world, most people have a general enough understanding of what it is not to automatically throw rocks or something. Unless that's a specific part of your campaign. Also, it's just an image around the summoner. Now, you can certainly have people who are biased against summoners. I just wouldn't apply a penalty to everyone based on a class feature.

3. This is from the synthesist entry. "The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear..." Given that the synthesist can still access his backpack, weapons, pouches, and so on, I see no reason that those items couldn't be sundered.

4. Blade of mercy affects slashing weapons, changing it to nonlethal and negating the penalty for doing so. Enforcer grants free intimidates and can provide the shaken condition. It does stack, and there is a ninja build designed to do the same thing, but with sap adept, mastery, and more goodies stacked on top.

5. "While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist." The armor check penalty is not a benefit, thus it still applies. As long as the summoner is fused with the eidolon, he enjoys all the drawback and limiting factors of his armor while gaining none of the benefits.

As for the second half of your question, I'm not really sure what you're asking. If you mean why doesn't the armor the summoner is wearing affect his ac when flatfooted, well, he gets no benefits from his armor while fused.

If it gets really bad, ask your player to roll up a new character.

You don't need a feat for that with wizards. The concentration check is sufficient. Fighters? How about sunder?

How about while unconscious? :D

Crap, I missed the whole mithril debate! *tear*

Honestly, I'd use the horse as a test subject. Try to find ways to un-undead that horse. Hopefully, you'll eventually have a living horse for your friend to ride.

Something else to take into consideration - do the deities with simple favored weapons have superior domain selection?

From the number cruncher perspective, any god that ended up granting weapon specialization would be better than the alternative.

+2 damage is comparable to going from a 1d6 weapon (3.5 average) to a 1d10 weapon (5.5 average). It's extra good because it's a feat that the class would otherwise not have access to.

If you want gods to offer something for the simple weapon folks, then give those clerics the option of the simple favored weapon or a longsword as a favored weapon.

I'm not partial to the play by post method either. i'm currently in two pathfinder games that are run over skype and using maptools, both of which are free.

These types of games pop up here and there. You just have to keep an eye out for them. The hard part is finding one that matches your schedule for days and hours.

Ahh :P Pass for me then. Thanks though!

Tagging for interest - is this a PbP game or will it be over skype/maptools/ect.?

Also, what day(s) are you planning on running? First time using the forum roller, so hopefully everything comes out correctly.

4d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 5, 3) = 12
4d6 ⇒ (4, 1, 3, 4) = 12
4d6 ⇒ (2, 5, 3, 4) = 14
4d6 ⇒ (1, 5, 4, 4) = 14
1d3 + 15 ⇒ (3) + 15 = 18
1d10 + 6 ⇒ (4) + 6 = 10

That's a tough one. You might not have a good option except to deal with it in-game.

There are a couple ways to go about it. My personal favorite would be to disguise someone to look like you and let them be killed in your place. Or to arrange for your apparent death in a faked explosion or faked attack.

You could always try to buy your murder contract. Or to join the assassin guild yourself.

Out of game, there's always another trick to pull. Once you have a guard dog with you, the assassins will spring a few gold for that alchemical item that hides their scent.

You could try to get a permanent way to see through invisibility... but they're still going to have very good stealth checks.

Blindsense, life sense, blind sight, and echolocation all might help, but you're not the right build to have easy access to them.

You're not a paladin either, so you're going to run into problems needing to sleep...

I suppose another way to approach this would be to try to make yourself immune to sneak attacks (and thus death attacks) in general. For that, you could pick up armor of heavy fortification, which gives you a 75% chance to ignore the death attack.

As a side note, thank you Xexyz for keeping us updated on the status :)

Specifically for using the fiery shurikens, the best case situation would probably be an improved invisibility spell. That would allow the rogue to add sneak attack damage to all his shurikens.

With regular invisibility, the rogue would be able to add sneak attack to the first attack only - unless -

The target is denied his dexterity bonus for some reason. This is usually from not having acted in combat. Other things that might provide the bonus would be - his target currently has the grappled condition. Or his target is currently using acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and/or uneven ground.

The spell grease is often used as a way to get an opponent to use acrobatics so that the rogue can then sneak attack.

Magicdealer wrote:

As an outside observer, Mergy, it sure does look like you're calling Lune out.

Might want to take more care with your phrasing next time.

What's wrong with that?

If someone is wrong about something then they need to be called out on it. Wrong information is bad information.

The problem, shallowsoul, is one of appropriate conduct. There is more than one way to phrase a sentence. Choosing a phrasing that people find offensive is going to lead to problems, arguments, and in extreme cases suspensions or bans.

In this particular thread, the sheer number of posts that phrasing has generated (distracting from the topic) should be a good indicator that there was a better way to phrase it so that no one felt insulted.

You can sneak attack multiple times in a round if you have more than one attack and are flanking an enemy. If you are in position to flank multiple enemies, you can sneak attack multiple enemies in the same round.

With greater invisibility you can even sneak attack at range.

Here's the thing to keep in mind.

Each sneak attack dice rolled is an average of 3.5 damage, and the rogue has a poorer attack bonus.

With the spell, the rogue hits more easily, but uses a spell to get there (consumable expenditure). If he's dealing 4d6+1d4 for the shuriken, it looks like a lot, but it's only an average of 16.5 damage. The party barbarian laughs at the trivial output. And that's a decently high rogue too.

Kirin Strike is fun for the whole family!

I'd think it would be item specific.

For raining arrow, it says " hitting the target and splashing nearby creatures as if you had thrown the vial"

So I would say from that you only deal damage as though you had thrown the vial. No arrow damage. However, you get the much better arrow range increments.

Slowburn says "On your turn, 1 round after impact, the burst of flame deals 1d6 points of fire damage to the target"

So normal arrow damage if you hit. Then, 1 round after that damage, you deal the 1d6 fire.

Trip arrow says "If the arrow hits, it makes a trip attack "

A trip attack doesn't deal damage, it's in place of an attack. So I'd say you forego the damage in place of the trip attack.

It would be a nice way to get into MT without losing effectiveness though.

You could go straight sorcerer7, grab the esoteric training, and be a sorc8/cleric3 and start MT at 8th level with full caster progression in your chosen class.

Very nice.

Well, the orc bloodline is a bonus to all damaging spells, and the draconic is a bonus to fire spells. 1 point each per dice, so 2 points/dice rolled for fire spells and 1 point per dice rolled for everything else.

Fighting something with fire immunity? change that fireball into an iceball and deal 10d6+10 and yay for vulnerabilities!

Honestly, I'm partial to the tattooed sorcerer archetype as well. A familiar that isn't always risking death? Sounds good to me.

As an outside observer, Mergy, it sure does look like you're calling Lune out.

Might want to take more care with your phrasing next time.

I wouldn't say that I'm opposed to Goro... but I don't think using two tower shields should need the extra hands.

One on the main hand acting at all times as a weapon and not a shield, and one on the off hand acting at all times as a shield and not a weapon.

** Edit **

Well, Archaeik, you do make a good point about the size of improvised weapon a tower shield would make, and about the tower shield specific entry preventing wielding a tower shield in any hand but the shield hand.

I might try large shield main hand and tower shield in off hand (shield hand) instead :/

Well, the idea is the character is holding two tower shields. One he uses as an improvised weapon. The other he's holding in his shield hand as a tower shield.

I know that the character is more effective with two heavy shields, but I really wanted to try to make it work with tower shields

Ok, so I know that a tower shield is prevented from shield bashing and from having shield spikes. However, the concept that is floating around in my head involves a fighter/paladin wielding two tower shields.

So.

While I cannot normally use a tower shield to attack with, is it rules legal to use the main hand tower shield as an improvised weapon?

And yes, I know that the shield bonuses don't stack. Actually, I was considering grabbing defending with my offensive tower shield (another rules legal question), and taking the fighter tower shield specialist archetype to go with it. I'm still not done perusing the paladin options, but I wanted a proof of concept before I spent too much more time on it.

Ignoring all the debates, I have one suggestion for you to help you make this work.

Send out an email to your players with what the guard says to them about returning the goods, and do so at least a few days before the game.

If any of them are going to get upset over the fact that they don't get to keep the gear, giving them a few days will let them calm down and approach it more reasonably.

What I'm saying is for the average, may-be-dickish player, which seems to be exactly the kind the OP spoke about.
I already played a character with three stats under 10 that was a obese hobo drunken monk who fought most of the time while crawling on the ground and puking poison, while the current one is the living statue of a failed wrestling star with a 7 in Intelligence and a 8 in Charisma, so please keep your "bad/wrong/fun" allegations for someone else, thanks, I have my own part of strangely fun concepts that may require DM leniency. There is "wanting something weird that requires optimization/fiat" and "wanting to break the game with the most min-maxed omgcombo ever". The second one is not welcomed on the table I play on.

Then you're not talking about min/maxing at all, because min/maxing has nothing to do with being a dickish player. In fact, many people enjoy min/maxing and are not dickish players. Min/maxing is, in fact, not about breaking the game, but getting the most out of the character concept that you can.

Anyone can see how "There is rollplaying weaknesses, and min-maxing like a pig." is a wide judgment on min/maxing.

Rollplaying doesn't prevent someone from roleplaying.

So yeah, bad/wrong/fun.

Peddle elsewhere.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see where that quote overrides the one I posted. Nothing there about overriding that line in the text.

Yeah, the wizard can cast spells on his familiar even if the spell does not affect magical beasts. However, since the section about share spells talks about casting it on the familiar "instead of" on himself, he must be a viable target for the spell.

Since he doesn't fall under the animal heading either, animal growth is still a no-no. But yeah, enlarge works just fine.

You could get equally cute.

Ahem...

Magical Hat of Disguise:
This uniquely versatile hat came into my possession one warm summer day after a long walk through the woods where I was randomly assailed by an angry looking turtle who yelled incoherently at me with a lisp. After dispatching him, I found only this hat in his possession.

Boots of striding and springing:
This useful pair of speedy boots came into my possession one cold winter night as I was about to hunker down into my warm bedroll near my crackling fire. You can imagine my surprise when an angry figure came catapulting towards me from the darkness. The creature made a prodigious leap over the campfire and landed in front of me, snarling at me with an abundance of slurring speech. As I struck him down with impunity, the firelight highlighted his turtle features. I found only these boots in his possession.

ect... with a smirk.

The change from diminutive to small does grant some bonuses.

"If a polymorph spell csuses you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, CMB, and stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell."

Based off the bolded sections, I would say you only modify your ability scores for size changes if the spell specifically allows it. That would include the changes from diminutive to small, since that would be a size change from the spell.

Yeah, polymorph is not a way to turn a bunch of trained rats into an unstoppable army of of juggernauts. It's called game balance, go figure.

However, if your problem is that you want him to be stronger, then by all means make a wondrous item gargantuan hippo harness to boost his strength up.

Statwise, your familiar starts at:

Str 1, Dex 15, Con 6, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 5
AC 20, touch 16, flat-footed 18 (+2 Dex, +4 size, +4 natural)
Base Atk +4
Melee bite +10 (1d3–5)
hp 26 : 1d8–2 => mine/2 (-2/HD)
Fort +0, Ref +4, Will +9 (base mine : 2/2/7)

Then you add in the modifiers for beast shape 3 of +6 str, -4 dex, and +6 natural armor.

Your hippo has a strength of 7, dex of 9, and a total natural armor bonus of +10.

Now, according to page 212, we see that "If a polymorph spell csuses you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, CMB, and stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell."
So no stat boosts from that.

And then you have animal growth. You can't target your familiar with animal growth, because it requires an animal, and your familiar by virtue of being a familiar is now a magical beast.

So your final base stats are str 7, dex 9, con 6, int 9, wis 14, and cha 5.

Message sent.

Cheese time, because cheese is delicious.

Human Ninja (scout).
Traits: Reactionary, Bully

feat Sap Adept, feat Intimidating Prowess, Ninja Trick Offensive Defense, Feat sap master, ninja trick weapon focus (unarmed strike), Feat Enforcer, Ninja trick Combat Trick Shatter Defenses

1Feat (Human) Sap Adept, Feat Enforcer
2Ninja Trick Combat Training(Improved Unarmed Strike)
3Feat Weapon Focus
4Ninja Trick (Finesse Rogue)
5Feat Sap Master
6Ninja Trick Offensive Defense
7Feat Dazzling Display
8 Ninja Trick Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
9Feat Two-weapon Fighting
10 Advanced Trick Crippling Strike
11 Feat Improved Two-weapon fighting
12 Advanced Trick Vanishing
13 Feat Knockout Artist
14 Advanced Trick Improved Vanishing
15 Feat Gorgon's Fist
16 Advanced Trick (Feat Shadow Strike)
17 Feat Scorpion Style

Start alchemist(vivisectionist) levels
18
19 Feat Medusa's Wrath, Discovery Feral Mutagen
20

You've got a scout charge that gives you a high bonus to your ac, making it much MUCH less dangerous to risk a full attack. Of course, if you miss you'll probably not pop up very high on the threat meter (sans metagaming of course).

By the end, you've got three attacks from your main hand, two attacks from your off hand, two attacks from medusa's wrath, two claw attacks, a bite attack, and an attack from your ki pool for eleven attacks.

I should note here that you're probably making all your normal attacks with knees and an amulet of mighty fists enchanted with agile for that extra bang. You get normal sneak attack progression the whole way through, and a bunch of things that add goodies to your damage.

Depending on your dm, offensive defense will either make your ac stupidly high, or REALLY stupidly high.

At 20th level, you'll be dealing 1d3 with your unarmed strike, with 10d6 sneak attack damage. Sap master rolls it up to 20d6 sneak attack. Depending on how you read sap adept, you're either dealing a bonus 20 or 40 damage.
Knockout artist is worth another 20 or 40 points, depending on the wording. Each sneak attack deals two str damage.

20d6 is worth an average of 70 damage. So each attack is looking at an average damage range of 110 to 150 depending on your interpretation of the feats.
Most of the time, you'll be making just 8 attacks, so you'll have the opportunity to deal anywhere from 880 damage to 1200 damage on a full attack.

Toss in that mutagen, and you're looking at an expanded range of 1210 to 1650 damage.
This is before you factor in bonuses to hit.

Against anything immune to nonlethal damage, you're stuck dealing 1d3+10d6, or just 1d3 if it's immune to sneak attack damage as well. It's really an all or nothing build. Either you devastate your enemy, or your enemy devastates you.

Toss in some variety amulets of mighty fists for fun and profit. One with brilliant energy could be useful much of the time... if somewhat odd, at least for when hitting is an issue. Sub out with the agile +4 version if you're facing something you can't hit with brilliant body parts.

The agile enchant itself will probably be worth 13ish damage per hit at level 20. So I guess the real maximum range is closer to 1793.

You'll notice that some of the feats are... perhaps not the best optimized. I ran out of abilities to stack with the unarmed damage, so I just popped in filler here and there. Improve away if you can.

As a side note, possibly dealing 22 strength damage each round is just fun.

Heh, Markus Ackis is just about ready to go. A 25 year old human, he has spent most all of his time buried in his books. He "finished" his apprenticeship some time ago, but only recently has his master seen fit to actively kick him out and send him into the world.

Markus is everything you'd expect from someone who has dedicated their lives to studying complex arcane formulas. He is somewhat lacking in the social graces, and values education over experience. A perspective that will likely be shattered quickly.

Unfortunately, he tends to take the "intelligent" decision over the common sense one every time. Usually, he won't even see the common sense solution unless it's pointed out to him.

He travels with the only companion he's ever really gotten along with - his familiar Edgar. Edgar is a lizard-like creature who spends most of his time sticking his head out of the back of Markus's pack. Should things get dangerous, he knows to dive in and keep his head down unless otherwise instructed.

In his off time, Markus likes to experiment with various chemicals. He considers himself quite the amateur alchemist, a fact that he has a tendency to drone on about.

Markus is generally motivated by his own desires, whatever they might be at the time, far more than any desire to perform. While he desires greater power over the world, he doesn't really comprehend the effects his search for power could have on others. Much of this is due to his somewhat sheltered life. He has never been exposed to the harsh realities of the world. It's a certain naivete that only real experience can cure.