That's exactly what the Animal Ally feat does. (Boon Companion raises it to full level.)
I don't want to just hand out bonus feats because the other players aren't interested in an animal companion and I don't really have any reasons to be handing out other feats.
Oh well. I guess I'll just offer a mythic path ability that gives those feats as bonus feats. It doesn't really seem particularly overpowered compared to Loyalty.
The biggest problem with loyalty is that the character in question doesn't have any reason to seek out an awaken spell, and it might actually be out of character to do so. (He's already got a mount, but wants to take it as a companion of some kind.)
Would a mythic path ability that simply grants an animal companion be reasonable?
Any suggestions on how a mythic character who doesn't already have one could gain an animal companion, or something very close to one at least?
There's the option of awakening it and then taking the Loyalty path ability. Or there is the Animal Ally feat, but that requires three feats to get up to a full progression.
I would have expected there to be a mythic path ability that would grant an animal companion somehow, but I couldn't find any. Would a path ability that granted Animal Ally (and possibly Boon Companion) be about on par? I think that'd make the most sense as a Marshal path ability, but I could see Guardian (who gets lots of animal companion related abilities) or Heirophant (as the druid favored path) too.
Once again, if you're one of my players, don't read this thread.
I posted a few days ago looking for some advice about a series of trials my players were going to be going through soon. Since then, I've rethought the details and reduced things to one large trial that I think should make more sense story-wise.
I still need a bit of help though. For the trial I need two objects for each deity. One is something that deity would appreciate as a gift/sacrifice and the other is something that would be related but wouldn't be appreciated as sacrifice. The list of deities is over here. Finally, each object will trigger a short vignette that the players will have to work through, but since there are so many of them, I don't mind if they can be dealt with with a just skill check or two.
I've got a few things, but I'm running out of time to prepare, so any advice or suggestions are appreciated.
Gator the Unread wrote:
Most use-activate items (e.g. lanterns, like the lantern of revealing) don't get their price doubled for being slotless.
My players are somewhere in between the beer and magic missiles and the hardcore roleplay group. They seem to like some of everything but nothing specific. :P
Anyway, the temple was built around this collection of artifacts. First someone went around and gathered these up and put them in one spot. Later someone built the trials to control access to the artifacts. Then someone built a temple around those trials. Much later, after the temple had been abandonded, various traps and safeguards were added. Then a small village grew up outside to protect the now-sealed entrance and keep records. Back to modern times and that village is abandoned and the whole thing is lost knowledge.
The temple is built for all 14 deities in my pantheon as it was built around this collection of artifacts. Most of the deities are neutral, but there's more good than evil. There are likely multiple trials because deities/priests couldn't agree on one. For the same reason, the trials probably are somewhat generic. (Edit: Oh yeah. These are the same deities then and now. They've let this temple become lost, but have now sent the players on a quest to find it.)
Now, it'd probably make sense to have 14 trials that you only need to complete 3 of instead of having 3 generic trials, but I don't think I'd be able to handle that.
If you're one of my players, don't read this thread.
I need some help with some ideas for an upcoming session. The players are in an ancient temple looking for some divine artifacts. I plan on them having to get through three trials to get to those, but I'm stuck on what those trials should be. These trials were designed and built a long time ago to grant access to only worthy individuals.
I was thinking of a trial of power, a trial of cunning and a trial of intelligence. Unfortunately, that's about as far as I've been able to get. There's plenty of combat without putting more into these trials, so I'd want to add something more if the was the main point of a trial of power. Riddles and the like sound like obvious candidates for a trial of intelligence, but those are notoriously unfun in practice. (I don't think my group would enjoy a straight-up riddle.)
I also don't want the trials to devolve into just, for example, a few skills rolls like a stealth trial probably would.
Any help, ideas or links would be appreciated.
If you're one of my players, stop reading now. It'll be much more fun if you find this stuff out as you go.
So, I've written myself into a bit of a corner. Or more accurately, a wide open field. I need to come up with 14 different artifacts, one for each of the gods in my pantheon.
On the one hand, I want each artifact to be somewhat unique. On the other, having some general template would make filling in the details much easier. The one thing they'll definitely all have in common is that they'll grant the players their first mythic tier.
My best idea so far is to do something based on each deities' favored spell, but that still leaves a lot of conceptual room. I was also thinking that it might help if the full range of abilities aren't unlocked immediately, but appear as the players gain tiers (if they ever do).
BTW, I'm counting on my players only taking one of these artifacts each, but I'm pretty confident in that assumption, and I can always throw in some conscious lightning bolts if they try anything too funny.
When trying to further enchant such items, you should try and break the price down into plus-equivalent and flat-rate prices, with the plus-equivalent being the more important of the two. So a Blade of Binding breaks down to either:
The new price would then either be 18,350 gp or 22,350 gp. I'm not sure which I'd got with, but I think most people would go with the latter. (If the price falls between +2 and +3, it's probably a +2 item with some extra, so you should probably add the difference to get it to a +3 item.)
Edit: Alternately, you could consider it a +2.5 item, which works out to 12,500 gp plus the MW greatsword. Not exact, but workable. Then the upgraded item would be 24,850 gp. (Not too surprisingly, about half way between the +2 to +3 price and the +3 to +4 price.)
(No one has any suggestions, questions or comments?)
Let's see. What would a pair of +1 daggers that became +2 daggers if you wield both of them be worth? Well, two +1 daggers are worth 4,604 gp. Two +2 daggers are worth 16,604 gp. The difference is 12,000 gp. So applying a 25% discount to the difference would give a final price of 13,604 gp. That doesn't sound too bad to me, but what about yall?
An extreme case: a pair of MW daggers that were revealed to be +5 flaming burst daggers when wielded together. That'd be 604 gp for the daggers and 196,604 gp for the +5 flaming burst daggers, so the price would be 147,604 gp. That's a pretty big savings for agreeing to use the two together, but a major penalty if you don't.
So, for my current high-magic game, this would be fine. But I want to try and come up with a price other people would also accept, so is 147,604 gp a fair price to yall?
So, my first pass at pricing these.
For the pair of items, I'm tempted to use the slotless modifier in reverse but I think that's too much of a discount. (That'd be divide by 2 instead of multiply by 2.) That might be just barely OK if you had some items that took up 2 body slots, but even then it might be a bit much. Instead, maybe half that discount, so a 25% discount instead of a 50% discount.
For plus-equivalents and things that apply to both weapons equally, I think you'd just take the difference between the two weapons individually and the two together and apply the discount to that difference. For other abilities, you'd just pay for the ability once and apply the discount to that.
For the beast shape spell, I'm not so sure. I think that allowing some of the minor properties of a uses per day spell to be continuous shouldn't be worth too much, but I'm not sure what to count as a minor property. Maybe it'd be best to take a weighted average of the two prices, but that's a bit more math than most people would want to deal with. Maybe there's a way to extrapolate something simpler from the duration multipliers.
For the duration, I'm still torn. I don't much like leaving it in one 7 minute block, but I'm not sure which division option would be the most fun to play.
Many more people have weighed in saying that your price is too high.
This isn't a loophole. This isn't cheese. We just value different things differently. There is more than one right way to play the game.
And you're going through the same cycle as the rest of us, if not leading the pack.
I'm trying to stat up an item and I keep getting stuck trying to decide how to handle of couple of the specific but less common details in pricing it. I'd prefer to work out some general pricing for each of the details rather than just a good price for the item as a whole though.
First, the item in question is a pair of weapons. Part of it won't work unless you weild both of them. I feel this is worth some discount but I'm not sure how much. One one hand it doesn't seem like a huge drawback because you'd almost always just keep using them as a pair. On the other hand, it forces you to use up your off hand to get the full benefit. While it's not directly applicable to this item, making a general decision here is further complicated by the differences between, for example, the enhancement bonus going up (obviously this should count once for each weapon) vs. some extra abilities that apply as a whole rather than for each weapon (which probably shouldn't count twice). I'm also somewhat curious about item sets more generally, but that's probably a can of worms better opened in a separate thread.
Second, the item grants a specific subset of the beast shape II spell, but it grants part of it all the time and part of it once per day. I'm also trying to decide if and how to divide up the duration. While I think it's fair to do so, I do agree with someone that said dividing a 7 minute duration into 7 one minute uses is worth more than dividing 7 rounds into 7 one round uses, but the latter is not worth anything according to several existing items. On the other hand, dividing 7 minutes into 70 rounds doesn't sound like a great idea for several reasons.
BTW, if you want some specifics to work with, the items are a pair of +1 tekko-kagi. While wearing both, you gain low-light vision, scent and grab on attacks made with these. For 7 minutes per day (division still to be decided) you can transform into a Large bear gaining +4 strength and natural armor and -2 dex as per the spell. Again though, I want to apply both of these details to other items independently, so I'm not looking just for a price for this one pair of items.
If you were going to redesign the spell system, I think you should start, not quite from scratch, but by questioning some of the underlying assumptions like the relation between spell levels and caster levels.
Honestly, I'd like to see casters just have spell slots with no level attached and all spells designed to be cast at any spell level. Casters would still have a caster level that determines how powerful the spells they cast are and spells would still have a spell level that determined how hard they were to learn, but the two wouldn't be related.
That said, at best this would have to wait until PF 2.0 and even then I doubt it will happen just due to the massive amount of work that would be needed to overhaul every spell and magic item that ever existed, or even enough of them to fill out the core book.
The thing is, I'm not metagame cheesing anything. I'm the GM. I'm not out to get my player's. I'm not out to win anything. What am I cheesing here? How can I be metagaming when I am the metagame?
While I agree that actually using three cloaks is cheesy (though not metagaming as that might be a reasonable if odd tactic in game), I don't agree that using that as a point of comparison is metagame cheese.
So no, no double standard here. I still don't like the way you argue things.
You know, this is my biggest problem with your argument. It's not entirely what you're saying (which I do still disagree with) but how you're saying it.
Adding the spell price and the +AC price together seems really odd. After all, you could just make a similar item without referencing barkskin and get a discount. (Or similarly make an item that gives a sacred bonus instead of a natural armor bonus and reference no specific spell.)
Also, I don't think the duration modifiers aren't applicable to a uses per day item as they're already implicitly taking the duration in to account.
In this case, the two happen to just about cancel each other out, so your price ends up about the same anyway, but it still seems like an odd way to use the guidelines.
I know. I'm referring to command word versus use activated. Like I mentioned before, I take use activated to mean either it requires a standard action or it's part of some existing standard action (roughly) and so the 10% difference is not applicable as the difference between that and a continuous item, which as you say needs to account for the duration, or a swift action item, which I don't feel is well covered in the guidelines.
Unfortunately there's not a lot of help I can offer in general. I can only really tell you how I do it and that any results would have to go through your GM anyway, or if you're the GM you should ask the basic questions here and decide on the edge cases for yourself (more or less).
Edit: I have been thinking of making a tutorial thread for magic item creation, except that I know at least a few people disagree with my interpretation of the item creation guidelines, so I'm not too sure how generally useful it'd be.
I'll say that I don't consider any use-activated item to be a free action to activate. I consider all of them to be a standard action (or possibly part of a more common standard action) with the 10% discount applying if you have to speak a command word which gives away your position and intention, etc. (I haven't completely decided how to handle move action or swift action items in general. Quicken is the obvious choice, but for many items it seems to give much to high of a price.)
Now, I do admit that's only my interpretation of the guidelines but it gives prices that seem reasonable to me.
17,400 is close to the total for a +3, not the difference between a +3 and a +2.
The difference between a +2 and a +3 is 10,000.
This is somewhere in between. You could price it as +17,400 gp, a +1 property plus an extra 7,400 gp (a bit odd), or a +1.5 or +1.6 property (going from +2 to +3.5 is 16,500 gp, to +3.6 is 17,920), or you could round it up to a +2 if you want to apply some premium.
Of course, if you just want a katana of life stealing instead of a longsword of life stealing, it's much easier. Just add the extra 35 gp (the difference between a longsword and a katana).
But yeah, there's no RAW on this. It's all GM territory.
I guess it's fair to not use the slotless multiplier. If you don't you might want to use the multiple different abilities pricing Kudaku mentioned.
Now, as for the CL, it's certainly reasonable to force everything to be the same CL but only staves have that as an actual restriction. (They're also the only thing that gets the multiple similar abilities discount that I've seen.) Look at the flame tongue. If you break it's price down, you get:
Masterwork longsword - 315 gp
Which gives the total in the book. The listed CL is 12, the highest of any of its effects.
Well, the short answer is ask your GM.
If I were your GM, in my current high-magic game this would go for 23,760 gp (purchase price, not creation cost). That's two command word spell effects priced at caster level * spell level * uses per day * 360, so 2 * 3 * 3 * 360 = 6480 and 3 * 5 * 1 * 360 = 5400. Because it's slotless, add the two together and multiply everything by 2 to get the total. Note that the two effects have different effective caster levels, so you only get barkskin for 30 minutes even though the caster level of the item as a whole is 5.
It should be pointed out that all those examples are in reference to a continuous true strike ability. Something that requires a standard action to use, especially if it has a charge limit, would be significantly less overpowered. Now, what price, if any, it'd go for depends on your campaign and GM.
I don't think I said what price to price it at. Personally I think the price of a lot of custom items are fine at the table prices but for those that aren't the final price is a GM/campaign specific issue so I couldn't really give much general advice.
Also, magic missile does a lot less damage than most any other ranged weapon and can't benefit from most damage increasing feats. Again, which is more important depends a lot on what you'd be fighting.
Most of the direct damage items aren't terribly OP. They're basically another weapon and for the most part can be priced similarly.
Also, no item is broken for every level. What may be broken at level 3 probably won't be at level 13. Magic missile's auto-hit is nice, but the damage won't be so impressive after a few levels. Even with a higher level version it'll eventually fall behind.
CLW, for example, is always useful, but it's also something the party nearly always has available anyway. So compare what they would use anyway (wands, potions, etc.) and use that as a starting point.
Now that's my general answer. You've put this in the Rules forum, so I won't go in to my houserules, but this will probably get moved as the mods don't consider any custom items to be rules questions.
Then we're not actually disagreeing here. I said most people would price it lower than 12k. You said most people would price it higher than 5k.
Note that I also said I'd price it higher than 5k in a low magic game. I haven't said what I'd price it at in a normal magic game (if you could even define that) because it'd likely depend on what restrictions, if any, I put on magic item creation.
The main thing I want is a way to generalize. I hate having to dig through every item in existence to find something similar enough that I can be confident that the comparison is valid, and as you can tell from this thread that can be basically impossible.
I've come to the conclusion that the formulas aren't nearly as useless as nearly everyone thinks. 99% of items you would want to make can be priced according to the formula with no problem. I think I've got most of the corner cases covered with just 3 or 4 house-guidelines on top of the table, although for my present game I've even thrown most of those out and just said have at it. Nothing's broken yet, but they're still fairly low level.
1) I'm saying that would be my choice as a player. Also, I'd much rather have your build 1 than build 2. For just 2 AC difference, I get my AC all the time.
2) What's your definition of "higher price"? All I said was I only counted about 4 people that were at 12k or higher, not everyone else was saying 1k.
3) I'm not comparing it to 1440 minutes. I'm comparing it to maybe 3-5 hours. If the enemies retreat and regroup, as the enemies in games I run do, that can easily burn through 1 minute.
Last game, my group went to look for some missing engineers. They found bloodstains around the entrance to the cave the engineers were trying to seal. A paranoid player might throw up a buff at this point, but it took them several rounds to descend into the cave before meeting some giant ants. If they buffed at the top of the hole, they might still have a round or two left. If they waited until they found an enemy, that's fine too. That's one use down.
Exploring the cave, they came across a group of kobolds fighting an ochre jelly. Again, a chance to prebuff as the bad guys are kind of busy. The kobolds managed to seal the jelly in a side cave and flee the area down a deep hole. The players followed them hoping to find out where the engineers went. If they suspected a trap or ambush at the bottom they could have buffed for that. Once at the bottom, they saw to one side a stone wall with a wary kobold on watch at the top. Again a chance to buff. Would you have cast shield at any of those opportunities? If you did, that's one charge wasted as none of those lead to any combat.
Following the trail further, they fought some more ants. If you buffed for that fight, that's another charge down, which might be your last.
Finally, they found a giant ant nest. Now, you might or might not have a charge left. They decided not to assault an unknown number of giant ants right then and headed back. Any random encounters on the way out and the ring of shield would probably be of no more use.
Or, you might wait until a fight's certain and then use your ring. Except that wastes a turn you could be doing something else. Are the first set of giant ants worth that turn? What about the second? If you used a charge against the kobolds, they'd likely have retreated and wasted your charge anyway.
On the other hand, 3 mage armors would definitely last the whole trip. Of course, that's 150 gp worth of potions.
Edit: Also, I said I'd charge 1080 in the high magic game I'm currently running, and 6480 in a low magic game. But not 12k in any game.
Celestial Armor's CL is 5, so the base DC is 10. The 3 CL per +1 would apply to most armor, but this is a unique item with a unique CL. However, other than a small change to the DC and being slightly easier to surpress, the lower CL doesn't mean much. Unless the item has "caster must be X level" or something along those lines in the requirements section, CL is not actually a requirement. (Of course, many GMs houserule that.)
But besides that, your calculation of the DC is correct. You can skip nearly any prerequisite besides the item creation feat with a +5 DC.
I think I'd rather spend 12,000 gp on a 5/day blur item. Or maybe some other 5-per-day/continuous 2nd level spell effect. Or maybe a 2/day 3rd level effect or 1/day 4th level effect.
Also, there don't seem to be a bunch of you. Just you and about 3 other posters who haven't chimed in in quite a while. Check the list of prices given. While not everyone agrees it should be 1080 gp, most people agree it should be cheaper than 12k.
And again you continue to gloss over just how short 3 minutes is, especially when you need to use 3 of those 30 rounds on using the item itself.