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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 1,044 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 8 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Charon's Little Helper wrote:


Min/max =/= optimized

Min/max focuses on a single character aspect and sacrifices everything else in order to max it out.

Optimization focuses on making the character better overall, and this includes being well rounded and having at least decent defenses against both physical and magical attacks.

Lol. This debate is so pointless. As we are arguing semantics. And the line between acceptable and annoying behavior is personal and going to vary widely from table to table. But I would define those terms very differently.

I see Min/Max as putting the minimum investment to get the maximum return.

I see Optimization as making improvements in order to be the best possible at doing whatever task you are optimizing for.

In character terms I see the min/max character being more balanced. He defines goals and invests the minimum possible to achieve that goal so he has the more resources to invest in the rest of his character.

The optimizer says I want to be absolute best at doing X task. He says things like... I want to be the strongest; or I want to be the fastest; or I want have the biggest damage per hit/round. And if something isn't improving your ability to do task X, then investing in it is optimizing for it.

And of course this ignores the person I least want to see at the table. The I don't want to be a Min/Max, Optimizing, munchkin... so I make all my choices totally at random without any rhyme or reason.


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His attack bonus doesn't charge with regards to your class level so the -2 doesn't apply. At level one is your BAB+attribute mod at level 20 its still BAB +attibrute mod.

The -2 is only really go to effect Natural Armor Adjustment, the familiar int score, and what 'specials' he has access to.


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Multiweapon Fighting (Beastiary) describes the normal condition for creatures with more 3 or more hands. -6 on the primary, -10 on attacks with each other hand.


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Loots effect is not easy to judge. It is also highly dependent on what they purchase with the loot. As there are lots of not very effective yet very expensive items out there.

That said, going from NPC wealth per level, to PC wealth per level is +1 CR. You might try and use that as standard, but mileage will vary significantly.


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Yes it is correct.


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Mechanically I find small to be generally advantageous to the creature compared to medium. +1 to hit, + ac, +4 stealth, 50% gear weight are more useful than -1 CMB/CMD at 75% capacity. On just about any character not planning on regularly becoming large (or bigger) and/or using combat maneuvers regularly.

But you are tossing out +1 templates, and I tend to think the difference between small is going to be vastly overshadowed by the templates selected which have a much wider power variance in my opinion.

And so, I'd really try to picture his character as a whole and compare it power wise to the other player characters at the table and see where it fits and make any adjustments from that prospective rather than looking at just this one character in isolation.

*Edit: The young template is probably ideal for what you are looking at as well. Don't get hung up on the name, consider it a small size template. Though if designing a character around it, I'd probably reclassify it as a +0 template (rather than a -1) especially with all the dex bonus being tossed around in this example.


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I don't think I've seen any text that implies a scizore is a shield. It doesn't show up on any shield tables to my knowledge. It certainly doesn't have the rules text that a shield (or spiked shield) has that allows it to be enchanted as a weapon or shield.

As a GM I'd probably say go for it. But as a question on the rules forum, I don't think it works.


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The feat in no way bypasses the eidolons "An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon." bit of rules text.


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I think they probably can... since the Chosen One (Paladin Archetype) seems to get a improved familiar with emissary template. All from the same source book.

True Form (ex) is different from bonus feat Improved Familiar you ask me. That said I'd clear it with a GM before trying it, as Dev posts have stated they didn't intend for improved familiars to have the templates.


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From a PC perspective, I find slow to much more useful. The biggest reason is that more creatures are immune to mind affecting abilities than transmutation. It also requires less coordination between party members, as confused people attacking whoever attacked them often leaves them still attacking your party.

That said, from a DM perspective. Confusion is much more fun. Parties are vastly more likely to be able to fix slow with haste, than deal with confusion. Also they are generally not immune to confusion. And as all the NPC are controlled by the DM, its generally easier to coordinate them.

Howling agony... mechanically I don't really like, though as a necromancer its thematic at least. It strikes me as an anti-melee spell (reducing AC and melee damage) but it targets fortitude which is generally the strength of melee characters.


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...Technically conclusions your ideas are wrong. 99% of the time you use the +50% price when combining magic items. When you use the 'multiple similar abilities' clause they are almost always talking items with charges sharing the same pool of abilities.

So if your super meta rod, has only 3 uses per day and on each charge you can use either quicken or concussive, you get the multiple similiar ability discount on the lesser ability. Because its less effective than having two individual items.

If your super meta rod, has 3 charges per day of quicken, and 3 charges per day of concussion you use the +50% cost on the lesser rod. For the advantage of not having to juggle items.

If your extra super ultimate meta magic rod, gives both quicken and concussion, you try to price it like a +6 level increase.


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a shadow wrote:


On Round 2, would you allow Fighter to use Step Up again even though it says he can't take a 5 foot step this turn?

Yes. Because when he uses it, it will not be his turn. His turn will have finished by the time step up is triggered again and thus he can take 5' steps again. A turn is not a round, its a specific portion of a round.


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Neo2151 wrote:

I'm admittedly kind of finding it hard to believe that the rule of "specific trumps general" applies in this case, as almost every Improved Familiar option comes with it's own alignment requirement text.

Imps don't.

Quasits don't.
Mephits don't.
Elementals don't.
Psuedodragons don't.

I'm not checking them all, but I don't think any of the familiars options without special rules in their bestiary entries allowing them to be familiars (ie not actually listed under the Improved Familiar feat).

If you are depending on specific rules from a different source book to add additional creatures to the improved familiar list, then you need to follow the requirements listed in that particular source which may be more or less restrictive than the default feat allows.


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ckdragons wrote:

This is true unless a specific rule or ability indicates otherwise, such as snap shot. Specific instance almost always trumps general rules.

If the text of snap shot specifically said you get a flanking bonus you'd be correct that specific trumps general. It doesn't state or imply that however.


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Being required to run the modules as written. LOL. Screw that. The GM should totally customize anything and everything to make the game better for his players and himself.

It would be disappointing. I am not thrilled with the alignment system but prohibiting players from being evil and/or taking abilities from an 'evil' like class frustrating.

Banning (nearly) all magical crafting. While I personally don't want my player PCs to be crafting with all the downtime for a variety of reason... I like that it exists.

Ending campaigns at 11th level (effectively). While I believe the game breaks down to rocket tag at a certain point I want the freedom to set the cap where I see fit.

And book keeping... I don't think I need to keep an account of every purchase and sale for the duration of a character lifespan.

I see nearly zero benefits to using PFS rules for a self contained game. If you want to use some of the PFS framework for your own game use it, but cherry pick the parts you like and ignore the rest. PFS is set up to get random strangers working in the same direction. Your home game probably isn't random strangers so you can better deal with the outliers.


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CampinCarl9127 wrote:
It simply allows the monk to use something like a bite or tail slap in place of an unarmed strike during a flurry. The benefit of this is that you are allowed to apply your unarmed strike feats to the natural attack, possibly causing it to be more powerful than it normally is.

This part of the feat was errata'd out of existance. Now all it does is let you use the natural attack as part of a flurry of blows. It can be very useful, say if your natural attack lets you deliver poison, trip on hit, or lets you grab then you can trigger those rider actions additional times.


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LazarX wrote:

There was a 3.X rule that said that possessing X DR would allow you to bypass DR on other creatures having the exact same type of DR.

I am curious can you link that rule? As far as I was aware it was handled the same way. Creatures with DR/Magic pierced magical DR. Creatures with an aligned subtype pierces DR/subtype. And creatures with DR/epic pierce DR/epic.

But no DR/slashing meaning you automatically pierce DR/Slashing. Or piercing, bludgeoning, silver, cold iron, or adamantine.


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DM_Blake wrote:


In all those cases, you probably stumbled, maybe fell or maybe not (REF save with a low DC to avoid falling prone), and maybe stopped for a moment to catch your balance (ended that move action).

That's the most I would do. But I know of zero rules for any of that.

... You didn't fall because you hit the ground after a few inches. Try it with the edge of a rooftop you are much less likely to catch yourself. Which is probably a better simulation of an unexpected 10+' drop typical of most pits.

I'd give the large creation a bonus to its save of +2 per size category (Large 2, Huge 4...). If the creature is too big to fit in the pit, probably just have it fall prone if they fail.


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Grapple is primarily a way to keep your prey from running away. The bear gets very frustrated when the dear keeps withdrawing every round. Particularly if the dear is faster than the bear.

The bear probably has enough wisdom to realize that grappling the T-rex is less than ideal. As he is the prey and should be running away.


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Delenot wrote:

Currently playing a Summoner.

I can't find anything stating that your Eidolon cannot be mind controlled (Or any form there of). So is it safe to assume , failing it's save, an Eidolon can be mind controlled?

What happens if the Summoner is mind controlled? Is the Eidolon, which obeys the Summoner, also under control by proxy? Since, when the Summoner tells it to do something it does.

Has anyone encountered this?

1) Yes, an Eidolon can be dominated etc so long as the effect functions on outsiders.

2) What happens to the summoners is dependent on what instructions the controller gives.
3) The Eidolon isn't compelled to obey the summoner irregardless of if the Summoner is under another's influence or not.
4) I am sure people have encountered it.


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Very few things changed in regards to the pricing guidelines of magic items from 3.x to pathfinder. So long as your GM approves it I don't see any reason to adjust the price.


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The stun would last 1 round. Generally this will be immediately before the attackers next turn unless they attacked out of turn with an AoO or something.


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CMB doesn't exclude other bonuses. If your bonus covers all attack rolls it will generally apply.

Pathfinder Core Rulebook wrote:


When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver,
make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your
normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently
have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects.
These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or
attack used to perform the maneuver.


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This should probably be a general rules question, as I am not sure how much flight is covered in the confines of the Beginner's Box.

In the Core Rulebook however, a collision while flying using wings requires a DC 25 fly check or immediately begin falling.


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LazarX wrote:


Nothing from Pathfinder Chronicles is legal to use in a new character. However if those same items are now made legal in a new source such as Faction Guide, you can use them IF you own the latter book.

There are no traits in Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting. As it predates the Character Traits Web Enhancement where traits were first introduced as a concept.


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Your quoting the wrong source book I believe. It is specifically allowed:

Additional Resources wrote:

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Faction Guide

Feat: Fast Crawl; Spells: hibernate, tripvine; Traits: Beast of the Society, Berserker of the Society, Blade of the Society, Defender of the Society, Exalted of the Society, Greater Adept of the Society, Havoc of the Society, Honored Fist of the Society, Maestro of the Society, Stalwart of the Society, Tracker of the Society


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1) The original weight.
2) No. It probably should be, but by RAW it only effects shields.
3) Yes (but the prices is the cost of MW item + 10gp per pound).


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Lune wrote:

Maezer: You are not aware of it. I posted in my original post it is from ISG (Inner Sea Gods). This is not relevant to answering the question though. This could just as easily be two weapon and archery feats.

I figured you misquoted. Or meant something else as I am not aware of any new ranger styles from Inner Sea Gods. Much less any styles containing 'combat expertise' feats.


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Maybe I am just not aware of it. None of the ranger combat styles offer any of the 'combat expertise' feats. Beyond that you only get one style package to pick feats from decided when on when you get your second ranger level. You could get a second style if you had two levels of slayer as I suppose.


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BLloyd607502 wrote:


I'm leaning towards pricing it at about 40-50K of gold (In character it'd be traded in perfumes, created from the blossoms of that one plant that Nymphs grow (Midnight Roses?))

These prices should probably at least be doubled because they stack with everything. But you wants conservative pricing.

+6 Charisma = 36k
+4 Int = 16k
+4 Wis = 16k
Free feat = 10k
+8 Bluff = 6.4k
+14 Diplomacy = 19.6k
+6 Intimidate = 3.6k
+10' base speed = 5.5k
+4 Morale Bonus to AC/to hit/Damage/Checks/Saves > Karyukai tea set = 38k

Its easily values at more than 150k in (good) mechanical benefits. As most of these buffs are untyped and stack with everything its probably well over 300k, so you are really stuck with sticking him with lots of plot related trouble. Honestly I'd probably tone all the bonus down a ton, but its not my game and its difficult to evaluate from a posted information.


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swordfalcon wrote:
and I doubt they are going to take crafting feats to get them, because this would ruin their build.

... unless the campaign is moving at a prohibitively fast pace craft wondrous item is one of the most powerful feats in the game. The idea that not one person in the party would be willing to spend one feat to get it blows my mind. Unless of course, they take leadership. In which case they get all the crafting feats in a nice little cohort package.


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If your dependent on randomly generated city magic item lists... at some point you go city hoping. Is it here? no? Teleport to different city? Is it here? no? Teleport to different city. Repeat until you've visited every city that will sell to you on the planet.

At its base this is going to quickly boil down to GM discretion. Either he's going to make available the item you want or not. This is probably the type of thing you should discuss with your GM when developing your character.


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Of course they have to pay full price....and I think you will find most builds that provide magic item lists are both paying full price and stay around the wealth by level cap. If they aren't they probably have crafting feats baked in.


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Go to a city with spellcasting services available and looking NPC with a crafting feat and pay to have it made.


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... take greater school familiar feat.


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Mechanically I don't think there is any method to 'swap out' traits. If you're a really generous GM just make him give up 900gp worth of equipment. If your not really generous don't let him make the swap at all and tell him he needs the additional traits feat to get more traits.


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I too would treat the ground as a single (super) colossal object 'ally' for purposes of flanking. So just as your pet T-Rex counts as one ally, despite occupying many squares so does the ground.

That said I am having a more fundamental problem with using feats that require 1) you to be the only character threatening a foe, and 2) two or more allies threatening a foe at the same time. Anytime condition one would be met, condition two would be not or vice versa. These feats really should not be working together at all. As such, I'd expect even more resistance to this idea, than flanking with the floor (which I don't think you'll find universal acceptance of.)

This is a relatively narrow corner case, so really the only person that really matter is your GM. Ask him.


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It matters what levels you are playing at. At 2nd level you'll be very competitive with a two weapon fighter. By 6th you'll be behind. And fall further behind with every level unless you gain access to extra attacks from some other source to help you keep up.


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No, they are not considered to have Finesse ability. Because its not printed in the rules text, and it would create significant confusion for them to errata'd this many years after publication.

Try convincing your GM to add the finesse property to them based on video evidence. You'll probably have better luck.


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My first gut reaction to the original post. Is that D&D 3.0 & 3.5 was just as convoluted and complex. Its the fact that he changed players from a more old school GM centric anything goes to make the story work to players the want to be hold tighter to rules. And that's probably what happened.

I peaked in on the WotC character optimization boards and they certainly did pull liberally from each and every source possible. And from Living Greyhawk/(not coming up with the Eberron campaign name) experience, I saw plenty of character with half a dozen classes each from a half dozen source book. With that in mind, Paizo's Pathfinder has done an awful lot to make it easier and occur earlier.

First and foremost, Pathfinder is far more open with content. With the minor exception of setting based rules, all of Paizo rule base content is open access. This wasn't true for WotC, as the vast majority of their content outside the core 3 books was not open. So it was more difficult to find and use. This has lead to far more adoption of rules from outside the core rules set in Pathfinder.

Second, the rules come in much earlier. In Pathfinder you are making racial substitutions, archetype substitutions, trait selections, and feat selection all at character creation. In 3.x with the exception of feats, all great deal of customization came from prestige classes. Which generally required more time and effort to gain entry into. That said I can't say how much more I prefer Pathfinders archetypes and substitutions producing different characters from the start and not being tied to being quite as front loaded as the 'good' 3.x prestige classes were.


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The biggest difference between Regeneration and Fast Healing is how they function once the character is below -Con HP.


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If that thread met your definition of both sides presenting their case... well it looks really one-sided to me. I have little doubt I can find lots of requests to allow it. That's not side that the underrepresented side.


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Nefreet wrote:


THIS is the 375 post thread where each side presented their case, and where Mike Brock reversed the ban.

Did you actually read that thread. Michael Brock specifically asked for only arguments leading to its unbanning. Only about 50 posts occur between his request, and his conclusion of unbanning it. Most of those posts are about snowball. Virtually no one argues for Magical Knack being overpowered in that thread.

You're going to be hard pressed to find arguments for banning magical knack, because it was banned at the same time traits were added to pathfinder society.


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Nefreet wrote:

The -4 isn't because you're trying to avoid your allies, either. It's because combat is dynamic and people are moving around, making it more difficult to pinpoint where to fire.

Its exactly because you are trying to avoid hitting any ally. That's why the rules state:

"Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or
throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with
a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack
roll."


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Arbane the Terrible wrote:

So... you're saying most feats and traits are too weak?

That is certainly the other option you could look at. Generally its easier to correct one thing, than fix all other things. But lets try that perspective.

We can fairly easily establish that fate's favored is worth a little more than a luckstone + dusty rose ioun stone. So about 25k in magic items.

Why not bring all traits up closer to 25k value?

All the traits that give static bonuses to saves, should be +5 to all saves based on cloak of resistance.

All the traits that give bonuses to AC, should be at least a +3 based on ring of protection.

Traits that give +2 to Init, should be more than a +4 based on Banner of Ancient Kings.

Traits that give bonus to hit or damage, should be at least a +2 to both, based on Gloves of Dueling.

Traits that give bonus to caster level, should probably a permanent +1 irregardless of HD, based on Orange Prism (Ioun Stone).


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Philo Pharynx wrote:

Fate's favored is not a scaling bonus. It stays the same from level 1 to level 20.

When I look at some of the other things that get nerfed, they are things that truly warp the game. A +1 to all saves constantly? It's not game breaking.

It does scale. At level 1 it probably does nothing unless you are a halforc. At level 20, if you put effort into leveraging it, its giving you +1 to ac, to hit, to damage, to saves, to all skills. The equivelent of several feats.


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By RAW you can't. In fact without the strike back feat you can't even attack a limb or weapon with reach unless you move to a position where you threaten the squares the creature occupies.

But in my opinion as a GM I'd probably allow it. Particularly if there is some effect preventing the fighter from closing with the base of the creature. The fighter could ready an action (to either strike back or grapple). And if the fighter succeeds on the grapple it would pull the creature to an adjacent position.


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I just want to state in the updated Ultimate combat pdf: That Lamellar, stone armor was not placed under Lamellar, Iron as stated in the errata sheet. Rather its under Lamellar, Steel and in the medium armor section.

I think it would make for a nice addition to medium armor, and an interesting alternative to the breastplate for Clerics/Druids etc. but I don't think it was intended.


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From the pc end, its you use it all the time, or you almost never use it. I have definately see trip, grapple, and dirty trick builds, but they require a significant resource investment to be successful it.

And as you level up the game turns into rocket tag. I get a full attack, then you are dead. Or the wizard hits the target with a save or suck spell and its not doing anything effective anyhow so your extra disabling is meaningless.


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The cost is calculated as follows:

(Cost * Spell Level * Caster Level / Charge Cost)

400 * 4 * 8 / 3 = 4267
300 * 4 * 8 / 3 = 3200
200 * 3 * 8 / 2 = 2400
200 * 1 * 8 / 1 = 1600
200 * 1 * 8 / 1 = 1600

4267 + 3200 + 2400 + 1600 + 1600 = 13067

So 13067gp to create. The book rounds to 13,075 but that's reasonable close.

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