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Vedavrex Misraria

Lune's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 2,661 posts. No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 8 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Effortless Lace is not allowed in Society play. IMO for good reason.

My opinion is that the best lead in to a Duelist is Swashbuckler. If you want to dip a bit for arcane Kensai Magus is pretty good too. I am currently playing a Swashigator (Investibuckler?) and that is actually very strong as well.


Tiny Mousers are better, though.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Thread 2: Electric Boogaloo
Who said anything about rapiers? I prefer bites and paws with my Mighty Fighting Fox! ;)


Suthainn: You could always get Impervious enchantment on the weapon. It is about the same as Adamantine. I will be going for Adamantine. Thank you for the first hand experiences of a martial only Living Monolith! It is very helpful.

Emmit Svenson: Hey, not a bad suggestion. I think I have my build down now but I am going to look into that as an alternate.


Alright, so had some friends over for a game and had one take a look at the build with me. With his skillful advice we decided it would be best to just forgo Power Attack entirely. I can't stand getting the negatives of both Power Attack and fighting defensively. Honestly, it isn't so big of a loss. I can grab Weapon Focus earlier and fit in Weapon Specialization where I can. Also without taking those negatives it makes Impact a desirable enchantment again and allows me to move Vital Strike back up in the build.

I rebuilt a bit and this is what I came up with:

Spoiler:

1st
Fighter 1
Weapon Focus (Fighter 1), Endurance (1st)
2nd
Monk 1
Flurry of Blows, Devoted Guardian, Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus), Dodge (bonus)
3rd
Monk 2
Evasion, Combat Reflexes (bonus), Diehard (3rd)
4th
Fighter 2
Stand Firm, Crane Style (Fighter 2)
5th
Fighter 3
Phalanx Fighting, Iron Will (5th)
6th
Fighter 4
Stalwart (Fighter 4)
7th
Living Monolith 1
Soul Stone, Ka Stone, Toughness (bonus), Weapon Specialization (7th)
8th
Living Monolith 2
Stone Blood
9th
Living Monolith 3
Fortified Flesh (DR 1/-, 10% Fortification), Steel Soul (9th)
10th
Living Monolith 4
Stability, Tombsight
11th
Living Monolith 5
Fortified Flesh (DR 2/-, 20% Fortification, Immune to Disease), Greater Ka Stone, Vital Strike (11th)
12th
Living Monolith 6
Attunement to Stone
13th
Living Monolith 7
Summon Sphinx, Improved Stalwart (13th)

These changes should bring the attack role up to around +16 or so by level 9 and it will raise to around +19-20 by level 11. The level 7, 9 and 11 feats I can really switch around to any order. Vital Strike provides more damage on a single attack (by average of 3.5 damage vs. 2 from Weapon Specialization) but doesn't help with AoOs of which the character should be getting many. Steel Soul is always good but I think I will have to judge it based on how often I am failing saves which I can't imagine will be very often.


Suthain: What do you think about going with a reach weapon? Do you use Power Attack with your build and if so do you think it is worth it over Weapon Specialization (I understand you can't get it on your barb, but if you could)?


Wait... can I actually get a mini fridge?


Hm... Madu is definitely mechanically the better choice. I'm not sure if I could bring myself to using such an ugly thing, though. Looking through some pictures I'm not seeing a very large variety of Madu either. If I could even make it look more like a spiked shield than that snaggly thing then I would go for it.

I will think on this.

edit: Anyway, it wouldn't be in favor of Crane Style. Crane Style allows me to get an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC which converts to another point of DR with Stalwart. That coupled with Acrobatics makes it a total of +4.

Yeah... I don't think it is worth a feat. Still a good catch.


You know, another issue that I'm noticing just now (not sure how I missed it) is that 14 Dex is nice for Combat Reflexes but when enlarged it goes down to 12. ...which is too low. I guess I could switch to a Str/Dex belt. Con is more desirable but Dex will give me more AoOs which is better for defense and a higher Ref save.


As far as defenses go at that level I think I should be well above average. When fighting defensively I would have the following:
DR 6/-
HP: 102

Spoiler:

18 Con 4*9=36
4 favored class
10 first level
6*3=18 Fighter levels
5*2=10 Monk Levels
5*3=15 Living Monolith Levels
9 Toughness

20% Fortification
Diehard for another 18 fake HP.
AC: 27 (28 if I go with Monk of the Iron Mountain instead of Sohei), 1 less while enlarged, 1 more during Righteous Might 2 levels later
Spoiler:

10
+10 Armor (+1 Stoneplate)
+3 Shield (+1 Heavy Steel Shield)
+1 Dodge
+1 Defender of the Society
+2 Dex

Saves: (Note the lack of a Resistance bonus due to not yet having a Cloak of Resistance. He could easily pick up at least a +1 or gain a resistance bonus from a variety of party buffs.)
Fort: 18
Ref: 12
Will: 13
Spoiler:

Fort: 18 = 9 Base, +4 Con, +2 Hardy, +2 Steel Soul, +1 Glory of Old
Ref: 12 = 5 Base, +2 Dex, +2 Hardy, +2 Steel Soul, +1 Glory of Old
Will: 13 = 5 Base, +1 Wis, +2 Hardy, +2 Steel Soul, +1 Glory of Old, +2 Iron Will

He also has a variety of other defensive qualities like:
Stand Firm coupled with Stability making him an immovable object.
Defensive Training (+4 AC vs Giants)
Stone Blood (immune to bleed and blood drain)
A 20' reach while enlarged and the ability to attack and threaten adjacent creatures due to the Boulder Helmet. Combat Reflexes helps here.
With gear weighing over 300lbs - I count this one as an advantage due to Slow and Steady. ;)

Bear in mind that this is all with throwing only minimal investments into defenses. It is only considering a +1 armor and shield and a +2 Str/Con belt and no Cloak of Resistance, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, etc. He should have better gear than this by now but this is with considering he is going to be throwing most of his wealth at offense to shore up his low to-hit bonus. That being said, it looks pretty decent to me!


Alright, so lets see what I would have for a to hit bonus at level 9 with some reasonable gear. This will be considering my build with the following gear: +3 Lucerne Hammer (18k), +2 Str/Con Belt (10k), Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone socketed into a Wayfinder (10k), Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone (4k). That would leave me with about 4k left over from standard wealth by level and spending most of my budget on offense.

This is also considering the following abilities:

Spoiler:

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14+2
Int 10
Wis 10+2
Cha 10-2

So with that it would bring my attack bonus to: 8 BAB(Fighter 4, Monk 1, Living Monolith 3 with Ka active), +6 Str (16 base +2 level ups, +2 enhancement, +2 size), +3 Weapon, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Competence, -1 size, -2 Power Attack, -2 Fighting Defensively = +14. So against AC 23 I will be hitting more than half the time, but not by much. It isn't as bad as I had thought but still isn't good.

At this point he is only 2 levels away from getting Greater Ka Stone which will up his Str by another +2, Con by +4, Natural Armor by +2 and give some non-stacking DR (in case I want to forgo Fighting Defensively).

There isn't much more I can think of to fix it with my build. If I drop Vital Strike in Favor of Weapon Focus that frees up 10k gold that I could put towards Boots of Speed giving me another +1 bonus. I could swap out the +2 Str/Con belt for a +4 Str belt giving me another +1. I suppose I could switch my Str and Con in my abilities which would up me by another +1. That would put me up to +17.

If I took Furious Focus instead of Vital Strike (I don't really like this idea) it would give me a +19 on my first hit but would lower my average damage per hit by a fair margin. I would have loved to fit in Impact on the weapon but I don't think I have the luxury of forgoing more straight to hit bonus. I guess without Impact it makes Vital Strike less appealing. Maybe I should get it though because by that level someone in the party would probably be able to afford to give me a Greater Magic Weapon most of the time.


Gulthor: Thank you for understanding. For the record his attack bonus is too low and I recognize that.

Suthainn: Ah, thank you for the correction. That does give me more information to work with for a short, concise backstory. :) Much appreciated!

Alex Mack: I agree that precasting Bloodrager I wouldn't consider as a caster. And your build works fairly well. I think I may have glossed over the Bloody Knuckled Rowdy. I would likely be using a Lucerne Hammer though as I want to stay bludgeoning.

That build is basically a single feat behind so I could end up getting Steel Soul at level 9 instead and push back Vital Strike to 11th. The only bonus that your build has over mine is Bloodrage. That is helpful for about 10 rounds/day and will add +2 to my attack role. In my build I could afford to pick up Weapon Focus somewhere around 7th or 9th depending on if I want to push back Steel Soul or not. So really it is only a swing of +1 to hit after that but it does give bonus damage as well.

BadBird: If I did go Warpriest I don't think I would have a big action economy issue. I would just prioritize Enlarge Person over Divine Favor. As I get to act in the surprise round that likely means I could swift action enlarge and 5' step then next round on actual initiative if I have a decent roll I could 5' and Divine Favor and if not just engage in melee.


Yeah... crap. Longhammers are hammers, not polearms. :(

Another reason to not use Warpriest is that I will definitely be worshiping Torag. I'm going earthy here, remember?

But to be honest that build doesn't look too shabby. I guess one downfall is no Stalwart at 6 which is the earliest I could get it sans full BAB. I guess 7 isn't too far off but it seems too late for a primary schtick feat. You missed that in your first list by the way. Stalwart and Improved Stalwart are very important to me in the build.

I know I'm stuborn and bullheaded and probably people are going to be upset that I'm not taking advice from them but I really just do dislike Warpriest. I'm not married to my build but it does give me everything I want but with low to hit bonus. If I can find some way to up that within the confines of what I want to get out of my build then I think I'm golden.

edit: I think a lot of the suggestions for caster builds (Warpriest and Bloodrager) are my fault. I should have said in my opening post that I want to go martial only for this build. Now I kinda just look like an ass who is dismissing good advice for petty reasons.


avr: It would make for a good build. I have another build using Living Monolith that uses Barbarian. Bloodrager is different flavor. I do like the way you are getting reach with Aberrant rather than from the weapon but it is still only during Bloodrage. I just wanted to go casterless for the build and didn't really want to go with a raging build either. Probably would make for a more effective build but just not what I am looking for. Also I did want to go with a bludgeoning reach weapon which there are few of. Thanx for the ideas though. :)


BadBird: Hm. I guess that is one direction. I could take extra traits and pick up Defensive Strategist as well, I suppose. I'm not sure what the other trait you are referring to is. Meh, I think Warpriest is just not my cup of tea. I don't like Brawler either, really.


I know that the build's one glaring weakness is a low to-hit bonus. That is what I really need to shore up. I could trade out Pushing Assault for Weapon Focus. In fact, I probably should. Without Weapon Training I can't get Gloves of Dueling but a +3 Weapon only costs 3k more than Gloves of Dueling so it isn't that far off until you can start affording both.

I guess I could go with an Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone socketed into a Wayfinder to get Weapon Focus rather than spending a feat on it. Its 10k but that is about the cost of a feat. I could also get a Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone for +1 competence bonus to attack. Boots of Speed are likely going to be the feet slot item I am going for and that is another +1 untyped to attack for 10 rounds/day.

As for feat choices I could also go with Furious Focus so I don't take the negative to my first iterative attack each round, though I would still be eating it for AoOs. If I went 2 more feats deep into Crane Style I could get Crane Riposte to only take -1 when fighting defensively which hardly seems worth it as I would get no other benefits of those feats.

Other than that I think I am stuck prioritizing weapon enchantments, Strength belts and temporary buffs.

Yeah, I got nuthin else to close that gap. Anyone?


Alex: Hm... some good stuff in here. Not sure how I missed that Dwarven Alternate Racial Trait. I think maybe I didn't but dismissed it as not good because it gives up Hardy. If I give up Hardy then I cannot get Steel Soul and that is a swing of 4 points on all saves. I can't see that ever being worth Endurance.

With the feat that you are referring to (what is it called?) it would allow freeing up using another Fighter Archetype. I'm not sure how much that helps, though. Unbreakable isn't desirable anymore due to getting Endurance for free. Unarmed is nice to get IUS and Crane Style. I wouldn't "have" to go Monk anymore, but I kind of want to for the free feats, saves and class ability from archetypes. Unarmed Fighter forgoes Weapon Training though. The best I can figure would be to go with Weapon Master to get Weapon Training early. Or at all in this build as I would not plan on going with more than 4 levels of Fighter.

There is something to be said for that, I suppose. Getting Endurance free allows me to take Diehard as my 1st level feat and Power Attack as my Fighter feat so the build starts off the same. The downfall is that I permanently lose out on Hardy + Steel Soul. But then I don't have to take that feat either freeing it up for the feat that allows using shield + polearm. Basically for 15k I end up getting +3/+3 to hit/damage in exchange for +4 to saves. I guess that is about equal and would help with his to hit issues.

I am not off on my math for Sohei. Or any Monk. 2nd level gives you +3 to all saves. If you mean that I didn't mention what other classes give, you are correct. That isn't a math issue. The entire point I was making is that other classes do not give as good of saves as a Monk. And that is the simple honest truth. The closest I could get is getting 2 good saves which would give +3 in two saves and nothing to the third.

As I said, I am not bound to Sohei. There are other options. I could take Terra-Cotta Monk or Monk of the Iron Mountain. Or I could not go Monk at all. I am open minded if you have other suggestions but bear in mind what you are competing with. Two levels of Monk is pretty solid: +3 to all saves, 3 bonus feats, 8 skill points (which are honestly needed to get the skills for Living Monolith) and a spiffy class ability is hard to beat. If I am settled on taking 4 levels of Fighter (and I am because I can't see getting all the other feats needed any other way) then is there anything better to spend those levels on? But I would love to be proven wrong here.

edit: I am once again dismissing any Ib based builds including Warpriest. This is strictly a Ka build. No Ib, please.


Oh, you know, you are right. Endurance and Diehard are both General Feats. S!#&. Guess I gotta switch Diehard and Power Attack around.


Balgin, they are two different builds.

I wanted to use Unbreakable Fighter. It was in my original build (the one I posted second) but opted for Phallanx Soldier instead as I wanted to use a shield and a reach weapon.

Ouat: Yeah, I am only finding small scraps on them. But that is definitely what I'm going with.


I don't know as much as I should about Golarion lore. I will look into Ouat as it seems to match exactly what I was thinking of.


Balgin wrote:
If you're going with the Stone Plate & Boulder Helmet then have you considered the Stonelord dwarven paladin archetype? It's basically not a paladin and could be built up towards the Living Monolith. I can see why you wanted to go with Unbreakable Fighter 'though.

Ninja'd that in there, didja? ;)

I did consider Stonelord. It does fit flavorwise but it has some issues. The companion wouldn't continue to advance and that is one of the big benefits of Stonelord. Also the DR wouldn't stack, it would overlap. Also also it doesn't provide the ability to use a polemar + shield.

I appreciate the suggestions, though.


Balgin wrote:

If you're going with Glory Of Old then have you also considered the Steel Soul feat from the APG? It stacks.

Glory Of Old is a Five Kings Mountains regional feat. The dwarfs of Osirion are called the Ouat and sound quite close to what you envisage.

*sigh* ... did you read the build? It is there already.


I didn't originally think that I needed to take it apart ability by ability but I will do that now:

Unbreakable Fighter gives free Endurance and Diehard. I really want Diehard for the build as it fits the hard to kill theme. Endurance is needed as a prereq for Living Monolith and I'd rather not waste a feat on it.

Power attack is one of the only offensive feat that the character is taking and I feel that he will need it to be able to successfully push out enough damage to make the enemy not ignore him. It does hurt his to-hit, though.

Monk is to get the free Unarmed Strike that I need to take Crane Style. I am taking Crane Style to pair with Stalwart to get DR/- that stacks with that granted by Living Monolith's Fortified Flesh ability. That is DR 10/- by 13th level. Monk also gives 2 bonus feats one of which is Combat Reflexes which I will need to take advantage of large size + reach. Dodge will also not go to waste as being hard to kill is important to the concept.

Same goes for +3 to all saves that the Monk will give. That coupled with Steel Soul, Glory of Old and Hardy will give the character +8 to all saves that matter (poison, spells, and spell-like abilities).

Iron Will is another prereq. Pushing Assault helps to keep the enemy at bay and away from my team. This feat isn't overly important to me if another can provide a better benefit. Improved Critical also falls into this category.

Vital Strike pairs well with a 1d12 Lucern Hammer especially when it is enchanted with Impact and the character is large sized. 8d6 seems tasty when I am limited to a single attack. So does 4d6 on anything else.

Hopefully that clears up any further direction related questions anyone might have.


BadBird wrote:
A Sohei can flurry in mithral medium armor, but they still can't flurry while using a shield, and they can't flurry with a polearm until Sohei 6 (and they also don't get Weapon Training - and thus the awesome Gloves of Dueling - until 6).

Yes, all true, sadly. I had misread the bit about Flurry in armor but as you pointed out it doesn't matter as it wouldn't work for other reasons as well. Sohei still seems like one of the better archetypes for Monk with this kind of build.

I couldn't figure a way to work in Weapon Training as either Unarmed Fighter or Unbreakable Fighter are needed for the feats to get into Living Monolith early. Both of those archetypes give up Weapon Training.

BadBird wrote:
It also looks like you're going to be creating a character that eats a -2 to attack from Crane Style, a Power Attack penalty, and a -1BAB from Monk, but that doesn't gain any class bonuses to attack or even Weapon Focus. That's pretty painful for offense, and downright ugly if you're trying to make weakly enhanced unarmed strikes with another -2 from flurry.

Yeah, forget the Flurry. But you are right, his to-hit is going to be rather low. I'm not seeing a way to fit anything in to mitigate it so I am likely look at throwing money at the problem.

Regarding Scarred Rager and/or Warpriest:
The only Barbarian archetype I had considered was Titan Mauler as it would give me the ability to use a reach weapon one handed. Not only that I but I could keep the Dwarven Longhammer. The problem is that I would take another -2 to attack. This would only be mitigated by Rage so definitely not worth it, IMO.

While Scarred Rager looks fine in general it does not give me the ability to use a reach weapon in one hand.

For Warpriest it would make going Ib desirable but I do not want to do that with this build. This will be a strickly Ka build. Besides that it is lacking in a lot of ways Monk is not: only 2 good saves vs 3, only 1 bonus feat (Weapon Focus) vs 2 (the muchly needed Combat Reflexes and Dodge) and one of the Evasion replacing abilities mentioned above or the Sohei Devoted Guardian.


Argus The Slayer wrote:
This seems kind of all over the place, to be honest: it isn't very focused.

Meeting the PRC prereqs as early as possible and being able to use a polearm kinda requires that. If you think you can do it better, I'm all ears! :)

Argus The Slayer wrote:
Sohei only allows flurry with light armor, from what I can see. Monk Evasion only works with no armor. You are looking to wear Stoneplate, which is the heaviest armor possible (and doesn't have any advantage that I can find over normal plate?). Why Sohie? Why Stoneplate?

Ah, yes. So you are correct. I can't use Flurry when in Heavy armor. In my defense I was looking here and didn't click on the actual link to the FAQ. It doesn't matter as even if I could Flurry I could only do it with Monk weapons and he isn't using Monk weapons.

Why Sohei? I said why. At this point it is already more "Why Monk?" than "Why Sohei?", though. But to answer your question:
1. Free Improved Unarmed Strike (which I need to get Crane Style).
2. 2 Free feats: Combat Reflexes and Dodge most likely.
3. +3 Bonus to all saves.

While I don't have to go Sohei getting the Devoted Guardian ability is really nice. I have some options, though. Terra-Cotta Monk is very in theme and gives an interesting ability in place of the otherwise useless (in this build) Evasion. Monk of the Iron Mountain is also very thematic and replaces Evasion with Toughness which will later be redundant but will help before I get there. It also gives +1 natural armor. If you don't think Sohei is the best pick for the build do you think one of those might be better?

Argus The Slayer wrote:
Why Stoneplate?

I am getting the feeling you didn't read my post.

Me, earlier... wrote:
I wanted to be a Dwarf from Qadira and have the whole Egyptian vibe going on. Kinda like Stargate but less tech, more magic. He will be a dark skinned dwarf with stony brown hair and beard. I really want the character to epitomize Dwarfyness, Qadiran, Scarab Sages, Sphinxyness, stoneyness, Guardianishness, durability, steadfastness, etc. (these are all real words, I assure you.)

I quoted the relevant bits. But seriously, why NOT Stoneplate? It has the same stats as Stoneplate for a Dwarf. The only downfall is that it weighs more and that is hardly a downfall, especially for a Dwarf. I have seen extra weight actually be a benefit. So mechanically it is basically the same and it is so much more thematic!

Argus The Slayer wrote:
I like Living Monolith a lot, but I think you should focus on things that work well with Enlarge Person (trip?), rather than the Sohei bits. I have a very strong PFS tripping/damage build that takes one level of Living Monolith - and it works great.

You mean like using a reach weapon? You did see the part where he is using a Lucern Hammer, right? Also, as stated in my original thread I plan on going as much into Living Monolith as possible.

Argus The Slayer wrote:
Can you tell us what it is that you are trying to accomplish? What will this character excel at? What makes them tick?

Come on, man... did you read the post at all? I answered this already. See the above quoted part or reread my post.


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Yes, but they aren't called Nobles. They are called Gnombles.


Alright, so I am considering the following build for PFS:

Spoiler:

Phalanx Soldier Fighter
Sohei Monk

1st
Fighter 1
Stand Firm, Endurance (bonus), Diehard (1st)
2nd
Monk 1
Flurry of Blows, Devoted Guardian, Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus), Dodge (bonus)
3rd
Monk 2
Evasion, Combat Reflexes (bonus), Power Attack (3rd)
4th
Fighter 2
Unflinching, Crane Style (Fighter 2)
5th
Fighter 3
Phalanx Fighting, Iron Will (5th)
6th
Fighter 4
Stalwart (Fighter 4)
7th
Living Monolith 1
Soul Stone, Ka Stone, Toughness (bonus), Steel Soul (7th)
8th
Living Monolith 2
Stone Blood
9th
Living Monolith 3
Fortified Flesh (DR 1/-, 10% Fortification), Vital Strike (9th)
10th
Living Monolith 4
Stability, Tombsight
11th
Living Monolith 5
Fortified Flesh (DR 2/-, 20% Fortification, Immune to Disease), Greater Ka Stone, Improved Critical (11th)
12th
Living Monolith 6
Attunement to Stone
13th
Living Monolith 7
Summon Sphinx, Improved Stalwart (13th)

I was also considering the possibility of going with Unarmed Fighter instead as it would remove the need to go Monk. But I found by going 2 levels of Monk I pick up some nice abilities, especially with Sohei. I get to flurry in armor (officially), I pick up an extra feat that I can use for a much needed Combat Reflexes and get to snag Evasion. There is the Devoted Guardian which matches both in theme and in it's awesome ability to allow me to always act in the surprise round. That should be nice with swift action Enlarge Persons. The bonus on initiative doesn't hurt either. The +3 bonus on all saves is also tasty. The small loss of hit points and a single point of BAB is the only downfalls.

So the idea is to combine a few concepts into one character.

I wanted to be a Dwarf from Qadira and have the whole Egyptian vibe going on. Kinda like Stargate but less tech, more magic. He will be a dark skinned dwarf with stony brown hair and beard. I really want the character to epitomize Dwarfyness, Qadiran, Scarab Sages, Sphinxyness, stoneyness, Guardianishness, durability, steadfastness, etc. (these are all real words, I assure you.)

I had considered the following build but didn't like the lack of shield:

Spoiler:
1st
Fighter 1
Endurance (bonus), Diehard (bonus), Power Attack (1st)
2nd
Monk 1
Flurry of Blows, Devoted Guardian, Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus), Dodge (bonus)
3rd
Monk 2
Evasion, Combat Reflexes (bonus), Iron Will (3rd)
4th
Fighter 2
Unflinching, Crane Style (Fighter 2)
5th
Fighter 3
Armor Training, Steel Soul (5th)
6th
Fighter 4
Stalwart (Fighter 4)
7th
Living Monolith 1
Soul Stone, Ka Stone, Toughness (bonus), Pushing Assault (7th)
8th
Living Monolith 2
Stone Blood
9th
Living Monolith 3
Fortified Flesh (DR 1/-, 10% Fortification), Vital Strike (9th)
10th
Living Monolith 4
Stability, Tombsight
11th
Living Monolith 5
Fortified Flesh (DR 2/-, 20% Fortification, Immune to Disease), Greater Ka Stone, Improved Critical (11th)
12th
Living Monolith 6
Attunement to Stone
13th
Living Monolith 7
Summon Sphinx, Improved Stalwart (13th)

The Dwarven Longhammer is more fitting and I would love to use it rather than a Lucern Hammer. I do not believe it is officially considered a polearm, though, even though it has reach. It isn't in the polearm Fighter Weapon Group.

In either build I will be going with the following:
Craftsman in place of Greed
Giant Hunter in place of Hatred

Traits: 2 of the following - probably the first 2.
Defender of the Society
Glory of Old
Temple Guard

I definitely will be going with Stoneplate and likely a Boulder Helmet for my adjacent attacks. Outside of that I'm not sure what to get for gear. Any suggestions are welcome. Build opinions as well.

With any luck maybe I will one day see this character through to 16th level and become immortal. That should make all the Highlander references that I plan on making with the character make sense. ;)


Have you considered Eldritch Heritage to get Shadow Bloodline for Shadow Well? I know you are likely tight on feats but thought it matched the flavor.

Also you could try going down the Scorpion Style line of feats as when a target is in darkness and cannot see it is effectively Blind. If it is Blind it cannot move at full speed without an Acrobatics check thus effectively limiting it's speed. That allows you to jump right to Gorgon's Fist. Medusa's Wrath makes it even better, but actually getting that feat is another story.

You could also go for the Believer's Boon feat and get the Night Domain ability to be effectively invisible (vs. critters without darkvision) in darkness for a few rounds per day.

If you found a way to get Channel Energy you could use the Variant Channeling for the Darkness Domain.

Just some ideas...


Hedgehog beard.


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I, for one, think his question is valid.


So I was thinking I'd go back and take a look at your advice about the Valet familiar thinking that I missed something. So lets go back because I don't think I took anything out of context.

Firebug wrote:

Ring of Tactical Precision with (Coordinated Shot, Friendly Fire Maneuvers and/or Enfilading Fire) and give it to someone who is going to be in melee anyway.

Instead of Iron Will, choose extra discovery: tumor familiar with a familiar that gives +2 will, like a hedgehog. So same bonus, plus alertness and if its a protector familiar effectively shield other a good amount of the time, and its not a target because its attached. Valet and share the teamwork feats I mentioned earlier. + Invisibility extract/infusion and never making attacks on its own just providing flanking for your melee teammates.

First of all, I think that the Hedgehog is the only familiar that gives anything to Will saves. I couldn't find another one. Unless I'm missing something?

I understand that you are changing pace with suggesting the Valet familiar vs Hedgehog but if we look at the feats that you are suggesting using with it I don't think they work.

Coordinated Shot

Spoiler:
Prerequisite(s): Point-Blank Shot.

Benefit: If your ally with this feat is threatening an opponent and is not providing cover to that opponent against your ranged attacks, you gain a +1 bonus on ranged attacks against that opponent. If your ally with this feat is flanking that opponent with another ally (even if that other ally doesn't have this feat), this bonus increases to +2.


The bolded parts are two things that Tiny and smaller creatures cannot do. A hedgehog familiar cannot threaten and it cannot flank.

Friendly Fire

Spoiler:
Prerequisite(s): Precise Shot.

Benefit(s): You initiate this feat as a standard action, making a ranged attack against a foe engaged in melee with at least one abettor. This shot deliberately forsakes normal precautions, putting your abettor at risk, but also is unexpected enough to surprise your mutual opponent.

You gain a +2 bonus on your attack roll if the attack passes through an abettor's space. If your shot misses the target, you must immediately make a second attack roll with all the same modifiers against the abettor, potentially hitting her with the attack instead of the opponent. When the attack resolves (regardless of whether either potential target was hit), the intended target's startled reaction provokes an attack of opportunity from the abettor.


You cannot use the standard action that this feat takes to activate and still use this character's schtick (Alchemical Weapon + Explosive Missile).
Also, while the hedgehog could be between the opponent and the character it wouldn't be threatening them thus it couldn't possibly stack with Coordinated Shot even if you could find a way to make it threaten while in the opponent's square. It is either threatening and in the square or it is outside of the square and you don't get the bonus from Friendly Fire.

Enfilading Fire

Spoiler:
Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, one other teamwork feat.

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on ranged attacks made against a foe flanked by 1 or more allies with this feat.


Not sure what part to bold here. Tiny creatures cannot flank so having a Tiny or smaller familiar with this feat is not helpful.

I think these feats could work fine with a different critter or with the aforementioned ring. But for a hedgehog familiar? Or really any familiar gained without Improved Familiar (outside of Mauler in their battle form, I suppose because they can threaten)? I'm not seeing it. So am I missing something?

The bit about making it a Protector familiar is good though. Thank you for that.


You bolded the wrong part of Reduce Person. Look at the sentence preceding what you bolded.


Zwordsman wrote:
the implication was, that he would have other discoveries for bombs. that he would apply on it. My preference wa the force damage.

Ah, gotcha. Was confused. But yeah, and I guess that would help with the damaging structures thing.

Zwordsman wrote:

and I have encountered more than a handful of GMs who have called Conductive its own thing that replicates an ability. This was in and out of pfs.

Fair warning seems like it can only help

Frankly I am surprised. I shouldn't be with the number of clearly wrong interpretations I have seen enforced. Either way, thank you for the heads up.

Zwordsman wrote:
I was pointing it out cause TONS of folks love to get on alchemist's shoulder if they aren't spamming fast bombs.

Fast bombs just isn't sustainable. And besides it wont work with his schtick. Also, even if it did he couldn't be hitting their AC so he could only do it with normal bombs. So... screw those folks. ;)

Firebug wrote:
In my experience having 1 full minute of prep time is never going to happen unless you are the one doing the ambushing and don't have to worry about stealth. You may have a round or two at most.

Before you go into the dungeon could work but doesn't give a lot of time before the encounter. There is also before you open that door you know has stuff behind it. But I know what you mean. But anyway, so the only solution you can suggest for this is Quick Draw? I had thought that there was an item that could help for this. I thought it was a Bandolier but can't find anything that would apply in this situation.

Firebug wrote:
Heroism (+2 morale, also will save), Pale Green Prism (Cracked) Ioun Stone (+1 competence), invisibility (+2 and vs flatfooted, if it wasn't PFS sipping jacket + CL 5 potion of vanish or greater invisibility made by a summoner), Tangleshot Arrows (-1 but touch), Haste (+1 to hit), Reduce Person (+2 dex, +1 to hit, if using tangleshot your arrow doesn't do any damage anyway...), Scent + Pheromone Arrows, Ring of Tactical Precision with (Coordinated Shot, Friendly Fire Maneuvers and/or Enfilading Fire) and give it to someone who is going to be in melee anyway.

Yeah, Heroism is going to be staple for him. I suggested grabbing a potion and using Alchemical Allocation for it most of the time. Same with Haste as it also helps him with his poor movement speed. Reduce Person doesn't change the size of ranged weapons because once the ammo leaves your body it returns to normal size. So it is really only beneficial to him but it has a short duration. It also helps with Stealth though. Greater Invisibility will be great later on as he can still get his sneak attack on the bolt itself. However, it doesn't work with potions made by Summoners as that isn't how potions work in PFS.

The Tangleshot Arrows I think are the best suggestion yet as it seems like they solve the low to-hit issues almost single-handedly. There is still the bit about cost, though, but that is largely taken care of by the fact that he can make them himself. And I found a bit in the Alchemy Manual that allows them to be made as bolts. Same with Dye Arrows and they are cheaper.

Firebug wrote:
Instead of Iron Will, choose extra discovery: tumor familiar with a familiar that gives +2 will, like a hedgehog. So same bonus, plus alertness and if its a protector familiar effectively shield other a good amount of the time, and its not a target because its attached. Valet and share the teamwork feats I mentioned earlier. + Invisibility extract/infusion and never making attacks on its own just providing flanking for your melee teammates.

Tumor Familiar is really one of those things that needs to be part of a concept for a character. Mechanically, I will grant you that it is better for sure. About the Valet Familiar though, that is out in PFS and likely is out outside as well due to this line:

"...the valet familiar retains the Alertness feat and does not gain Cooperative Crafting, though this still counts as modifying the alertness ability for the purpose of qualifying for archetypes."

I will bring up Protector Familiar though.

Firebug wrote:
Int to damage x2

Hm... I can see your point. If it requires 2 saves and hits resistance twice then it should apply Int twice.

Firebug wrote:
Better when you add Mummification to be immune to the non-lethal damage and save Spontaneous healing for when you drop below 0.

Actually it equates to about the same thing since when you heal damage you heal an equal amount of non-lethal. Yeah, being immune to non-lethal is helpful but when you are healing it every round it is nearly as good and saves you a Discovery. ;)


Right now LordAwesome is mulling over the idea of dropping Saboteur. He doesn't like the idea of giving up the iconic imagery of what a Saboteur does. But mechanically speaking the only thing he thinks he is going to miss are the Bore Bombs which I have said can't be that important if he is putting them off until 9th level.

Does anyone know of some good ways to damage structures? I think if he has this part of the concept filled then he wont have any issue with dropping Saboteur.


Firebug: Some questions...
So Quickdraw you are talking about needing for the drawing of alchemical items? As far as the ammunition goes that is a free action. If it is specific ammunition then the Efficient Quiver can help with that. Alchemical Weapons can be made ahead of time and placed onto arrows and it will last for 1 minute. Its not much but it can help if you have a bit to prepare. Do you have any other suggestions outside of vestigial arm that could help with this?

I have warned him that the attack bonus is going to be low. I suggested against going with Saboteur so that he could still make a Dex mutagen to help offset this penalty. I have also suggested picking up Iron Will to help with his Will saves. Outside of that the only things I can think of that will help him are items. I would suggest Bracers of Archery but they don't work for Crossbows. Bracers of Falcon's Aim are not PFS legal. Outside of Dex items and weapon enhancements I don't have a lot of suggestions for adding to his to-hit. Suggestions?

I don't think you can do Int to damage twice if it is all from the same source. It coming from 2 different things I think is a bit moot if the delivery device is the same. Unless there has been some ruling on this that I am not aware of?

Unchained Rogue is a good suggestion. We do not own the book yet but it would likely be a good purchase. Finesse Training doesn't work with ranged weapons and I honestly do not see him ever use a melee weapon with this character so that goes to waste. Debilitating Injury could be helpful, though.

I made a tank Alchemist for the last home game I played in. It was fun, but you are right. In the arms race that is Pathfinder one can never be too tanky. Ablative Barrier is so good with Healing Touch by the way. ;)


Zwordsman wrote:
So it might always be fire even if your Explosive missle does force damage (my preference)

Explosive Missile does not do force damage.

Zwordsman wrote:
Another note about conductive. Depending on the GM again (on whether conductive is the actual ability or just a new effect copying it) then precise bombs may or may not help. So a concern there.

See the discussion here and here on the topic. I do not know of anyone who disagrees that this works together.

Zwordsman wrote:
Also techicnally speaking. Explosive missle can not fire the Rogue bomber’s bombs. IT SHOULD be allowed, but if your GM is one of the more …specific on details types. It won’t. Because those bombs are not “alchemist’s bombs” they’re different bombs.

Luckily the Bomber Talent says "These bombs act as alchemist's bombs." I don't think we will have to rely on a "should" there. They do work.

Regarding him taking Rogue levels: He understands the benefits and downfalls of the deal. Since Saboteur is distinctly roguelike but lacks Trapfinding he wanted to pick that skill up from somewhere. And since Underground Chemist dovetails off a bomber build so well (and allows him the ability to sneak attack with bombs (including those from the Bomber Talent) it seems to fit pretty well. Also, a few corrections for you again here...

Zwordsman wrote:
Bomber. It will only do 2d6 damage, no INT,

Incorrect, sir.

Chemical Weapons wrote:
She adds her Intelligence modifier to damage dealt with splash weapons

+

Bomber wrote:
These bombs act as alchemist's bombs.

+

Alchemist's Bomb Class Feature wrote:
Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack. Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus. On a direct hit, an alchemist's bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist's Intelligence modifier.

=

It works.

Basically, because the bombs from Bomber are still splash weapons regardless of the clause in the Bomber Talent stating "...except they deal damage equal to the damage dealt by the rogue's sneak attack (the rogue doesn't add her Intelligence modifier to this damage)." they would normally not add it. But because the Rogue is also an Alchemist they do because they are still splash weapons. And Alchemists DO add +Int to damage on splash weapons even if Rogues do not.

We are also aware of the action economy not allowing for more than a single arrow/bomb/alchemical/conductive goodness per turn, I don't really see that as much of a downfall here. First of all this is for PFS play and likely wont get much above 12th level. Second, that is an aweful lot of versatility and damage on a single shot. The only way to increase it would be to get Fast Bombs but he is already going to be going through an awful lot of them with his current build.

Concentrated Splash was a consideration, thank you for the suggestion. It likely deserves a second look.

Regarding enhancement bonus on the crossbow... does that actually add to the splash damage? I can see the argument for it doing so but it seems kinda fuzzy.


I think they were all turned off by the "Gnome" and "Crossbow" parts. ;)


FYI. The build for this character is based on information from this thread.


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edduardco wrote:
Lune wrote:
I, for one, am sick of Paizo Devs setting a seemingly arbitrary price on the life of my character. I mean who are they to determine how much my character's life is worth?! I mean at least if it were a price adjusted by level it wouldn't appear so arbitrary! Are we going to put up with this kind of blatant player abuse?! Fight the power!
Actually Paizo did not set the prices and definitely there aren't arbitrary. Remember that core rulebook came from 3.5 and in 3.5 there was spells with XP cost, what Paizo did with Pathfinder was eliminate XP cost, so they made a conversion of 5GP per 1XP to all those spells (The equivalency of 5GP = 1XP also came from 3.5)

A lot of those Paizo Devs used to work for WotC and some of them T$R before that! Its a conspiracy, I tell you! They just want your money. Er.... your character's money, I mean!


So I can get behind the whole thing of 1/6 perhaps being reasonable for something where you get the power of a full feat or class ability AND get the flexibility of choosing from a large list. However, I'm not certain that 1/6 for making a single already obtained class ability function as if you were one level higher is reasonable. You aren't paying for the versatility of a large number of choices and you aren't getting something new. Paying 6 hp for making something you already have marginally better does not seem worth it to me. Making it 4 hp would still make it a tough choice and that seems how it was intended to me.

That is just my opinion. I'm still interested in your opinions.


hiiamtom: What you had said was...

Quote:
This is why I just let players choose +1 skill or +1 hp regardless of class/prestige... FCBs have become a little bit of a cluster...

That seems to be discussing a disdain for the entire alternate FCB system. I was simply pointing out that is beyond the intended scope of this thread.

Stating that I don't know what was 1/6 to begin with is both false and not constructive. I question your motives for your aggressive tone. I am, however pleased that you returned to the primary topic. If you have some personal issue with me (for some reason that I don't understand) can we please take it to private messages?


hiiamtom: 1 extra option for FCB is too much to handle?...

Either way, not really the topic of this thread, I guess.


So, Claxon, being that you are the first I have heard to have that opinion I am interested in knowing what you think is balanced for that ability. Do you think it is balanced at 1/6? I know you said you think 1/2 is too powerful and I agree. Do you think think 1/6 is spot on, too powerful still or too harsh?


So if we pick the Oracle Animal Companion or Bonded Mount as a worst case scenario (and I agree, despite the fact that I have a PFS character that uses it) do we still think that 1/6 is balanced?

I, for one, do not. I would not be willing to give up 6 hp to have my mount be 1 level higher. I wonder if anyone would?

If another thread doesn't actually exist on it maybe we could use this one to vote on it. Because we know that rules changes with Pathfinder works with democracy, right? ;)


It doesn't really need to ride its master though anyway beautiful it is tiny sized and can just move with them on their initiative and share his square. Right?


I heard somewhere that Paizo was considering changing the races that give bouses like this somewhere but can't remember where. I had thought it was a thread somewhere on these boards but couldn't find it when I searched back through my recent threads. Does anyone know where this might have been? Is there anywhere I could show my support of this potential change?

My perspective, by the way, is that 1/2 was too powerful for many of these abilities but 1/6 is so restrictive that I doubt anyone would take that option over giving up 6 hit points. I wonder if anyone actually disagrees with that view point as I have discussed it with several people IRL and have yet to hear a different opinion expressed. I think the pendulum has swung too far to the other side on this one.

A reasonable compromise seems like it would be 1/4. Or does anyone think that is still too powerful?


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But we aren't setting the price, only the value of the material component. The economy isn't even doing it. Even if you bicker endlessly about the economics of how much a diamond is worth or if you can use diamond dust you are still talking about the value of that component. Price is determined by the oppressive Paizo Devs. Can't you see that they are winning by making you fight with each other?! That is what they want! Turn your pitchforks on the true enemy and deny the oppressive Paizo spin machine their pleasure in watching you fight each other!


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*His.
I understand drow males look slightly androgynous to the human eye so I forgive the mistake.

Fight the power. Don't buy into the diamond mine propaganda machine! Let players determine the price of character lives!


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I, for one, am sick of Paizo Devs setting a seemingly arbitrary price on the life of my character. I mean who are they to determine how much my character's life is worth?! I mean at least if it were a price adjusted by level it wouldn't appear so arbitrary! Are we going to put up with this kind of blatant player abuse?! Fight the power!


The rules state that the character threatens, not the weapon. Period.

Occam's razor that. Nice holier than thou attitude though. Especially since I haven't addressed you once... and I am among your only allies in this thread. But whatever, go ahead and alienate me I guess?

What good would locking the thread do? Is it your goal to make people not be able to discuss things? You do realize that anyone could just make another thread, right?...

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