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Cavall, Rathendar : Did you miss the part where I do not have 3rd level extracts yet?
boring7: I think the GM feels sorta bad throwing that CR12 at us so early and screwing the one player so bad.
Did I mention that the witch specifically is putting ranks into UMD to shore up the spells that she can not cast? ...and then didn't get scrolls for the healy type spells either? Not a single Restoration spell (I got those), Remove Curse (I got those), Remove Blindness (neither of us got those, Break Enchantment (neither of us got those). At least he has a wand of Dispel Magic. Too bad it wont help with the blindness. :(
So question on this: if we manage to use Lesser Planar Ally do you think it would be possible to summon an Aasimar with class levels that has a scroll of Remove Blindness on him? I mean... I guess there is nothing that says you can't summon native outsiders, right? And since it is deity's choice and presumably they are trying to do the best for their following to help their request it seems feasible.
I dunno... what do you think?
Alchemist isn't the one who is blinded. The archer is.
Also, I just figured out what we were fighting. A Shining Child. Yeah, I am fairly certain we can not beat that thing what with the permanent Insanity and all. It didn't even use a fraction of it's power against us. If my character can manage to get ahold of it and keep raging until we kill it then maybe, but I don't see how I'm going to do that with it flying about and shooting lasers and all.
Also, another item of note. We are in Turtleback Ferry. I'm not looking for spoilers and I doubt many would be relevant anyway but apparently there is some module that took place there. Not sure if my DM is pulling anything from that or just using the basic map or what. If something there survived the cataclysm perhaps we can find something in that town that could help. It is half flooded right now.
I should mention we are in a post apocalyptic Golarion. We actually have been doing a bit of Star Gate like hopping around as our base of operations is on the moon. It is one of the only places to have survived the cataclysm completely intact. We do not have an easy means of transport back and forth and have to use this very sparingly. The current mission we are on doesn't allow for us to travel back to base without completing the mission.
There are also no real "towns" to go to in order to buy magic items or procure the aid of spell casters. So these options are - at least for the time being - not possible. Basically, we have to make due with what we have. This is something we all went into this campaign knowing and have tried to have a fairly self sufficient party. Well... except the witch. She refuses to conform and adapt. I have tried to offer the player some advice on ways to be effective but she doesn't believe that the staples of an effective witch are actually effective. Further they don't seem to match his character concept. Other than being a dark skinned human female witch doctor type, I'm not sure what his concept is from a mechanics perspective.
I am unfamiliar with what the critter was but my party just ran into some CR12 thing that had a 60' radius of permanently blinding light. We do not appear to have an easy means of blindness removal. We are fairly stuck by ourselves without a solution.
Barbarian 1/Alchemist 6 - Hyde type. Going high hit points tankish with the Diehard and Deathless line of feats and Lingering Spirit. His alternate personality is a doctor (chirugeon archetype) and a backup healer. This is my character.
Witch 7 with Animal Patron - Improved Familiar for a Quasit that spends most of its time in Hyena form. Hexes taken: Flight, Prehensile Hair, the healy one and Slumber.
Gunslinger 7 - Pretty much a generalist gunslinger, not a lot to mention here.
The Witch is generally annoying for how the player role plays her (male player, female character). She tries to parlay with many enemies in the middle of battle even when it is clear that they are not interested (or often not capable of) diplomacy. No exception here. She is borderline evil in an overwhelmingly good campaign and has a quasit as a familiar. He sees no problem with this. Mostly though, the character is wildly ineffective. Despite being a witch which (oo, a pun!) should be an excellent debuffer he has chosen to ignore what that type of character excels at and pretty much resorts to being a blaster and terrible melee character. She is also the group's primary healer.
...despite being the group's primary healer she is fairly subpar at that as well. Point and case, she never picked up Remove Blindness. She also doesn't carry any of the other remedy types spells. I have 4 scrolls of Restoration on my character for this reason. She has no Break Enchantment, Remove Paralysis, etc. Even if she didn't keep them memorized I would think she would at least have them copied to her familiar to memorize them when needed. Or at least have scrolls of it or something.
My character as the backup healer does not yet have 3rd level extracts. Even if he did I could not share it with a party member. I can only do that with cure spells. I do not have Infusion and honestly do not plan on getting it.
I have no solution for our archer's malady that I can think of. We have a Harrow Deck but we are very reluctant to use it. I would honestly rather just throw the whole deck in a lava river somewhere. Other than that I believe our witch has a way of using Lesser Planar Ally (scroll or a staff, I do not recall). I couldn't find anything he could call that would have spells or spell-like abilities that would help. The spell is too high level for a 6HD creature to have on it's list if it had character levels and I couldn't find a critter that is capable of removing it with spell-like abilities.
That leaves either my character leveling up or his character doing spell research without access to a library to do so to help. Unless someone else has ideas?
Worse yet we didn't kill the thing. It flew off. We are likely going to have to face it again and it is pretty grim for our CR. It was telepathically yelling at us about something about a locket and a well so it is likely there is some kind of RP story thing going on that we are expected to figure out. My character hasn't had the time/money to invest in a means of reliable flight yet (he has a goat of travail figurine but it is on cooldown right now). Normally he doesn't need to as we have the skies covered with a flying archer and have ground artillery with our gunslinger so ranged combat isn't a big issue. But with our archer taken out that takes a big chunk out of our damage dealing. And a blind archer isn't very effective at anything else either. ... at least he has a ridiculously high perception check.
Maybe with Lesser Planar Ally we could call a being that has a scroll of remove blindness or some means of doing so with equipment it has? I'm grasping at straws here. I suppose it is possible that the blindness is actually a curse. I have scrolls of Remove Curse on me.
Parry and riposte are some of the worst abilities of Duelist. I would not base a reason for taking Duelist on that ability for any build.
Getting more initiative is always good. Always.
And, like I said, without posting what your build is (like if it has Dragon Style and a Buckler that he uses frequently) it is impossible to predict what would be best for the character. Without that information I would say that Duelist is a good choice for a Swashbuckler.
Perhaps I missed it. In what way are they redundant? Do some of their abilities overlap rather than stack?
I mean if you are using a buckler and set on doing so then I guess it isn't the PrC for you, but it does seem to both mechanically and thematically match otherwise.
Shaman Bond: Monk and Barbarian do not play well together. Alignment clashes and all would not allow a Breaker and Kata Master to mix. Sorry.
Durngrun Stonebreaker: That build looks better to me. It seems like it is doing more what you wanted it to do. :) Not sure about your other rage powers though... they don't seem to work towards the theme that you are going for much. Even though the brawler powers didn't add much I feel that they at least match the theme. Plus at least with those you do not have to focus on using a weapon as much which seems to be what you are going for.
You could go for some of the generally helpful powers like celestial to help out your healer. If you aren't worried about the hitting you while grappling and want to make sure you land your roles you could go for Reckless Abandon. Have you thought about going for the intimidating line of powers and with Cornugon Smash? Stacking debuffs is a good way to ensure you are able to grapple successfully for those hard to grapple foes.
I would like to second (third? fourth?) the opinion that Brutal Pugilist is NOT the way to go here. Go Titan Mauler. Ignore the text of Titan Mauler as written as well as the errata. The creator of the prestige class has posted on this topic and it is clear that the intent of the archetype was to be able to wield weapons that are normally too large for you to wield. The intent matches the fluff and while I would normally argue for the crunch > fluff, but if the developer of the rules backs up the intent that is difficult to argue.
Brutal Pugilist doesn't let you do anything you can't already do. It just makes doing things that you can already do easier. Titan Mauler DOES make you do things that you can not already do. AND it makes it easier for you to do those things. In fact, it lets you do the things you want to do: it lets you wield over-sized opponents. (if you use the developer's intent)
I also would suggest taking Imbicatus' advice and going with Living Monolith for at least 1 level past 10th. There have been some other great suggestions as well. Particularly this one:
Wait what?.... Even if you could combine them legally, are you meaning that you would get 2x Int modifier because it is 2x splash weapons in one?
I'm not certain that is the way that works...
Most games I play in raise the cost of Monk's Robes by 50%. The formentioned bracers also get price raised.
Some games I have played in ban PC made items with wishes in them.
The making of Mountains into Islands and Islands into Plains seems like just a bit of mana shuffling, not too game breaking unless it affects the other player's lands. Wait... wrong game.
strayshift: So what bloodline power would you get? There is only one bloodline power listed for Sylvan.
To be clear an animal companion at CL-5 is fairly weak for a 2 feat investment. It isn't like you are getting more for that bloodline choice than the others. For a third feat (Boon Companion) you could even get it at CL-1! ...still pretty meh for a 3 feat investment.
I understand you are going for the one punch trick thing here but to me it doesn't seem as worth while to invest in both Nature Magic and Grasping Strike to situationally (foliage in the area has to exist) gain the same advantage that you could accomplish simply by throwing a net at them.
If you don't care and you just want to add whatever effects you can (even situational ones) to you punch as possible then feel free to ignore this post.
Still looking for an answer to this:
Me, earlier wrote:
Rogar: I thank you for having logical arguments. However, I have good reason to see them as the same thing. There is a distinction between Bloodlines that are Sorcerer Bloodlines and and Bloodlines that are not Sorcerer Bloodlines. For example there is the generic term "bloodlines" that is just referring to your character's ancestry and is something that mostly belongs in a character's background. There are also Bloodlines that are not available to a Sorcerer like a Bloodrager's Bloodlines. There are also templates that talk about having a bloodline as to the cause of inheriting the template like half-dragon.
But Wildblooded Bloodlines? Yeah. Those are Sorcerer Bloodlins.
As I have said before, I am not the only one with this opinion. In fact, I believe it is the popular opinion of those on these boards as I have seen from previous threads on this issue. I do not slight others for their opinions on intention but it appears to me that there are people who are reading words in that do not exist in RAW. That is also what Ravingdork sees if I read him correctly and others who have posted on this topic repeatedly in other threads.
fretgod99: The rules state that you get the Bloodline Power. It is (regardless of other things it also is) a Bloodline Power. Honestly, that is as simple as it is. If you don't get it then you would be getting nothing for taking a feat and I truly do not believe that is what is intended. Do you believe it is intended for you to take a feat and get nothing?
fretgod99: I didn't handwave it away. You are correct that it counts as an Arcana. But that does not make it NOT count as a Bloodline Power. For that I think YOU are handwaving it away. And I think that YOU are adding words that do not exist as there is nothing that says you do NOT get the Bloodline Power. That is the letter of the rules.
fretgod99: The concern that it replaces two abilities IS a balance related concern. Is it not? As I said before, "Leadership > Eldritch Heritage. And that is one feat."
Taking two feats to accomplish less than what a single feat accomplishes doesn't even ping on my balance radar. But I guess in that regard my equipment is less sensitive than others'.
Majuba, Rogar Stonebow: It is impossible for you to know my attitude as words do not carry that sort of thing well. I can tell you that I do not have an attitude about any of it. If you took offense by something I'm said, I am sorry you did so. No offense was intended. Looking back at what I said, it is hard for me to imagine what it was. Especially considering the things said to me. I mean, people got so passionate as to call me "superior", "disingenuous" and attacking my character as you are. None of this is relevant to the discussion. My suggestion would be to return to that before someone violates a board rule and the thread gets locked.
By the way, the RAW that I am using to support my stand has been stated multiple times. I wasn't even the first person to post it. Eldritch Heritage says to "Select one Sorcerer Bloodline". It does not specify further about what type of Bloodline must be selected. It does not disclude Wildblooded Bloodlines. That is something that is being read into rules that does not exist. Wildblooded Bloodlines are Sorcerer Bloodlines.
Rory: Whether or not the animal companion is an arcana or not does not disclude it from being a Bloodline Power. It is, in fact, listed as a Bloodline Power. While Eldritch Heritage says that you do not gain any of the other Bloodline Abilities, it also does not say that you lose your Bloodline Power. That is something that is being read into the rules that is not there. That is why it is not RAW.
You are suggesting that not only does it not grant the other bloodline abilities but it doesn't grant the bloodline power and it just does not state that.
If not, then why do you get to take an ability which stands in for both?
Because of the wording of Eldritch Heritage.
All of your concerns about why it shouldn't work are balance related concerns. Those are understandable too. However, Leadership > Eldritch Heritage. And that is one feat.
Mathius: I think I have seen you share this in a different thread on the same topic. It is a valid point and a fresh look into the reasoning.
Because the free haste gives them access to more 3rd level spells.
Also, did you read my actual suggestion?
Zhayne: He covered that. With his system he would arbitrarily reduce your point buy when you get casting ability. I know how much players like that mid adventure retcon nerf, right?
Rogar, I am sorry you do not like the words that I used but I never invalidated anyone's viewpoint. In fact, I have stated several times that people are allowed to make their own house rules and have opinions about what is balanced. What I have an issue with is someone saying what their opinion is on a ruling and then saying that ruling is RAW.
This is the same thing that Ravingdork is saying when he said:
Wildblooded sorcerers are still sorcerers. Mutated bloodlines are still bloodlines. People who go deeper than that are over thinking it or unintentionally making up rules where none exist.
I am glad that we agree on what is RAW, though, so I'm not sure what we are disagreeing with?...
If we take the rules out of the equation for a moment (I know, weird, right?) and look at it from a logical perspective...
Eldritch Heritage is a feat that you take to represent what?
A Wildblooded Bloodline represents what?
I have been accused of being closed minded. Are we really going to say that it is not possible for a being to have been born with Wildblooded Bloodline that ISN'T a Sorcerer? Because to me, that seems like what is being said here. Am I wrong?
Wait... what? Haste is a spell that benefits martials FAR more than it does casters. Whats the big deal with that?
Also, I think you are way off on your opinion that casters use wealth better than martials and I believe you will find that a lot of people here disagree with that statement as well.
On a constructive side there is an old 3.5 book called the Book of Erotic Fantasy that had a fatigue casting system in it that I liked a lot. It could probably be tweaked a bit and seems to fit in with most fantasy trope. Reminds me a lot of Rastlin casting spells and getting tired. There is a lot of great pictures in it too... ;)
ryric: I'm stepping out from your argument actually. You will have to find someone else to argue with, I'm afraid. When you start asking for "irrefutable quotes" and I feel that I have given them but you continue to refute them I can not give what you ask. I feel like any evidence that I give you would refute. And where will that get anyone?
It boggles my mind that you believe that Sorcerer Bloodlines are not Bloodlines, mutated bloodlines are not bloodlines and bloodlines are not bloodlines. You state this as hard evidence but provide no proof yourself. You ask for irrefutable quotes but when I show you in your own words that you are saying "bloodlines" but not seeing that they are "bloodlines", do you consider this "irrefutable"?
Please bare in mind that I wasn't even the first one in this thread to point this out. Perhaps you would like to argue with Ravingdork instead? Or perhaps it would be more constructive to argue with the OP?
In the mean time I will be over here ignoring you and declaring myself the winner, I suppose. Gosh, I'm blushing. First you all call me superior then a winner. I'm honored.
Yes, that is yet a different discussion, Petty Alchemy. On that topic I can see both sides.
But the two questions are:
2. Can you take the Sylvan Bloodline with Eldritch Heritage?
The first one has no issues with RAW, we have no answer on intention, and it seems to have no balance issues. It is totally legal in RAW and I always allow it.
For the second, while I can see both sides of that argument I can't reconcile not allowing someone to take one Bloodline and not another. And while Eldritch Heritage states that it gives you only the bloodline power that IS, in fact, all that you are getting with Sylvan. It just so happens that the particular Bloodline doesn't get an Arcana. RAW this has no bearing on whether it works or not. Intention has still not been given at any point. At this point it is only a matter of game balance. So then you have to ask yourself, "Self, do you think it is too powerful to gain an Animal Companion at CL -3 for the cost of two feats?" Personally, I do not believe that there is a balance concern here. I allow it. Regardless, RAW allows for it.
Ryric: You have successfully proven that Wildblooded Bloodlines are Archetypes. Congratulations. This does not disprove that they are not also Bloodlines. It is right in their name.
You can not say that "RAW they aren't bloodlines" and then call someone "disingenuous" when they point out that your opinion is not RAW. RAW, all Bloodlines are Bloodlines.
As previously stated, you have a lovely opinion. But it is just that. This is a hotly debated topic but what people are debating is intention, not RAW. RAW is very clear.
Maybe some day we will get what the intention was out of a developer. But even that doesn't change RAW. RAW only changes when errata changes it.
In the mean time feel free to rule how you want in your home games. You do not need to argue with people on the internet to do that.